Daniel (00:06.3) We all play different roles every day. Maybe it's the role of a friend or the role of a business person or a spouse or a partner or a drummer in a band or a goalie or a chimney sweep or a mother or a father or brother or sister or sibling or child. The possibilities are endless, but whatever they are, we all play roles every day. So what's the difference between the roles we play in games and the roles we play in the rest of life? Is there a difference? And what are the benefits of role play? And what are the risks? Today, we're discussing all things role play in our latest episode of AV Club. It's all on this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi -weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:19.516) Hello, welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so wonderful to have you here. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:19.561) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:29.82) And we are very grateful for your decision to click on that link or pull up this video or press that button and tune in and spend a few moments with us today. It is a gift and an honor. And we thank you, dear listeners and viewers for being a part of the discussion today. Kevin, you're looking good, man. How are you? Kevin (01:53.293) I'm good, thanks Daniel. Yeah, I'm good. Daniel (01:56.508) Good, good, glad to hear it. Anything exciting going on in your part of the world? Kevin (02:06.251) Kids have a break on their swim club, swim team club events for two weeks. They don't have to go to swim practice. And that is like the greatest thing ever. Because I'm excited about that. And we got a Nintendo's... Yeah, it's suddenly open. I know. Yeah, we're in a busy season with their age and their activities because they're old enough to have activities, but not old enough to drive. So... Daniel (02:14.588) Oh. Nice, nice. So it's an intense schedule. Is it? Wow. Daniel (02:31.388) Yeah. Daniel (02:35.196) Right, right, playing the chauffeur. Kevin (02:36.447) that stage of life. And then we got a Nintendo Switch at Christmas. And I got the Hogwarts Legacy game, and I got it because it's the best -selling video game of last year. And Daniel, it is really cool. It's really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (02:41.436) Oh, wonderful. Daniel (02:49.564) Oh, how interesting. Is it really Hogwarts Legacy? What kind of video game is it? Now this isn't the Harry Potter Lego game, right? Kevin (02:59.501) This is, it's in the Harry Potter world. I think it's way well after the events of Harry Potter. And you're playing a young wizard and they've introduced something in the Hogwarts sphere that there's old magic. And this, I don't think this is a spoiler. It's very early in the game that they are describing. There's an old type of magic that was used to build Hogwarts and only some wizards can tap into it. And your character can tap into it. So it kind of explains why you're a fifth year student. Daniel (03:04.73) Okay. Kevin (03:28.971) and you're really powerful, but you kind of don't know what you're doing and you have a special role. And it's just really fun. Like you get to see the castle and you get to, I don't know. It just takes me back to remembering how great Harry Potter was. So thoroughly enjoying that. Yeah. Daniel (03:38.332) It sounds great. Daniel (03:42.94) So Hogwarts Legacy. Sounds really cool. Kevin (03:45.548) Yeah, I was at the store at Walmart and There were some obviously I hate stereotype but two really nerdy people standing near the video games And I said is this game any good and they just went uh -huh I said is it worth $60 they went uh -huh, and I was like well you guys would know nerds So because I'm a nerd and so I bought it and they were right. They were totally right Don't ask the clerk ask the nerds Daniel (03:57.532) My peeps. Yeah. Daniel (04:09.757) Great, great. Sounds like great advice. Yeah. That's, it sounds like a great game. I have to, I want to check it out. Yeah, we're doing, we're doing well. Thank you. Yeah. I think today might be the day that I have to start mowing the lawn again. We haven't, haven't done it the last six months, but yeah, you too. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And our corner of the world is spring. Yeah. Kevin (04:13.836) You can tell they tend to be nerds. Kevin (04:19.308) So good. How about you? Kevin (04:29.932) We just started, yeah. Yeah. Did you go battery? You went battery. Yeah, so much more pleasant. Daniel (04:39.451) You know. I have not had one moment of regret since. Kevin (04:46.762) Uh -uh, no. Daniel (04:49.405) I mean, I know if a person had a larger lawn, it might be harder, but our lawns have been small enough that we have two batteries and you know if one dies, I can swap out the other. That's always enough to finish up the lawn. And I love it. How about you, you too? Yeah. Kevin (04:56.95) Mm -hmm. Yeah, there's nothing worse than yes, yes, it's so great and the old ones the gas You know you realize you're out of gas halfway through and you have to get in the car and get the gas tank and drive up to the gas station Petrol or whatever and buy that it's so nice to just swap out the batteries. Yeah, and it's quieter Daniel (05:14.269) Yeah. Daniel (05:20.606) I don't know about you, but I always get gasoline on my hands and feet and I always smell like gasoline the rest of the day. Kevin (05:24.012) Yeah. I don't like it in the car, you know, because I don't want it to spill and it's on the outside. Yeah, no, it's just that alone. And they're not that expensive. You can get a nice one for $300. I mean, that's as much as a gas powered. So yeah, it's nice. Anywho, Daniel today, I'm going to check off the small talk box. Is that OK? It's just like church. We're up to the Old Testament reading. Check. Daniel (05:37.438) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Cool, cool. Today, okay, we've checked off the small talk box. That sounds good. Today we're doing our next installment of AV Club. And yeah, and for regular listeners may know about this already, AV Club is... Kevin (05:59.412) AVGlob. Daniel (06:05.534) We find a video online and honestly, gotta give props to you on this, Kevin. You're always the one that finds the videos. You're very good at finding videos that have to do with games. Oh, no, no, they're always interesting. And we just talk about their videos dealing with games somehow and also life and maybe faith. And so the video that you found for our discussion today, Kevin (06:11.661) you No, I'm just on YouTube too much. Daniel (06:33.566) is a video that comes from a series we've discussed before, People Makes Games, People Make Games, and it's a particular episode called The Murder Game Revolution that has gripped China about a game called Ju Bencha. And would you mind to share what, so what did you find interesting about this video? What did you like about it? And what is this thing, Ju Bencha? Kevin (06:59.661) It is kind of like D &D, except usually set in the real world, and it's going to take place over several days. But similarly to D &D, you're playing a character, and you're going to be playing with other people that you may or may not have met, and there is a game master, you know, a dungeon master type person that will run the scenario. So if you've ever had that type of role -playing experience, it's that. But it's much more intense because it could go all day or all weekend and it deals with really deep, powerful plot lines and stories. This is not about leveling up. It's often about a murder or secrets people have kept. And it is so big in China that people are there are theme parks to it. People plan their vacations around it. This is the highlight of their their social entertainment world. It's not necessarily video games or. Daniel (07:32.812) Yeah. Kevin (07:53.646) or even board games. It is doing jubensha. Jubensha, yeah, is this game that came, it's based on a game out of France, right? Daniel (08:01.079) Yeah, yeah, like somehow this, this French murder mystery game was role playing games translated into Mandarin, I believe. And then it just kind of took off and it just became really popular in China. And yeah, like. Kevin (08:15.598) So I guess it's all descended from D &D to some degree, right? Daniel (08:20.059) I guess that's true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so and as you said, like, so yeah, this this video kind of explores this. And like you said, it's massively popular there. The video talks about there are many times more. Juvencha and I apologize if I'm saying that wrong, but Juvencha shops in China many times more than there are, you know, like escape routes. Kevin (08:21.102) Every role -playing game, I think D &D really was the first. Kevin (08:29.962) Thank you. Daniel (08:49.312) escape room shops in, you know, the United States or whatever, even proportional to population. Just hugely popular. So you say it's descended from Dungeons and Dragons, descended from D &D, this role playing game. So what is, for listeners who may not know, what is role playing? What is a role playing game? Kevin (09:09.354) Role -playing games D &D came out of war games the war gaming in the 1800s that in the old days they were recreating Napoleonic battles and you would have a referee type person to Accept certain maneuvers or they would even measure the distance. So it's dice and maneuvers recreating war games and that continued into the 1900s until in one edition from TSR Tactical something something. This company that made these wargaming scenarios included a little appendix that included a variant that was set basically in Lord of the Rings. It had hobbits and halflings and dragons. That's why it feels like Lord of the Rings. It's directly inspired by that. He's like, here's a skin of this game. Daniel (09:45.245) Yeah, yeah, I don't know either. Daniel (09:57.059) Okay, okay. I did not know that. Kevin (10:07.534) And that's where it took off. And so interestingly, once that happened, it became more about storytelling and adventures and leveling up and not so much about a war simulation where you're trying to win a battle and it has a real win condition. D &D doesn't exactly have win conditions. It eventually became about storytelling and story playing and characters. And so, Jubensha is sharing some of that and that you're playing a character. Daniel (10:13.085) Right. Kevin (10:36.237) I don't think there's leveling up, whereas in D &D you get new spells and abilities. I think Jubensha is much more of a... Like you're saying, a escape room type thing where you're... Except it's longer and more involved and involves a very complex situation. But Jubensha is very much a community thing. It's social. Is that fair? So if you think of like a costume dinner party you might go to, and then you think of... Daniel (10:39.333) Right. Kevin (11:04.494) playing a game where you're a character and you're trying to solve a mystery. I think of the Knives Out movies. If you could think of getting to play that movie, that's kind of what these things are like. Which is why I would totally love to play one. I would totally. Would you play it? Daniel (11:09.729) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know. And the characters are so deep. They say it mentioned on the video, like, you know, you don't whereas like some dungeons and some role playing games might get a character sheet, you know, where you learn about your character, you're given like a pamphlet. Kevin (11:25.792) you Daniel (11:36.061) where people will read like 15 minutes to an hour about their character before the play even begins. You know, like it's just really deep in terms of what's your backstory? What are your motivations? What are your hopes? What are your fears? What are your secrets? You know, it's just, it's a really... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:51.95) And you might be in costume, you might be prepared, dressed up. and you might go for several days. So you go to a theme park and you go into that theme park not to ride a ride but to have a jubincha adventure. Daniel (12:03.113) Yeah, yeah. Have you ever played a role playing game? Do you play many role playing games, Kevin, or have you over the course of your life? Yeah. Mm hmm. Oh. Right. Kevin (12:12.878) Not really. I have done some. Well, I've done some, but some of that was online virtually during the pandemic. I've done some Cala Cthulhu is fun, but I've never done it where you really were staying in character. Because there is one type of D &D Cala Cthulhu type where you only speak what your character would say. But most people don't do that. It's just too hard. Daniel (12:33.477) Really? Wow, that would be hard. Talk about magic circle. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (12:38.967) So I assume Juventia is more of like you're you really are supposed to stay in care When you're playing the game, everything you say is your character speaking, not you speaking. What about you? Daniel (12:52.327) Like you have to be in character for, you have to commit. Yeah, you know, I haven't played very much in my life. Yeah, method acting, that makes sense. I used to do a little bit of Dungeons and Dragons when I was growing up. I think I may have shared the story of previous episode. We tried it once as a family. We thought it'd be a really neat idea. Kevin (12:56.653) Yeah. It's like method acting or something. Daniel (13:20.125) as a family to try Dungeons and Dragons. And so before our kids had left for college and when they were kind of a junior high high school. And so we we set the table, we dimmed the lights, we had the spooky music, we put the candle in the middle of the table. We got ready to play Dungeons and Dragons campaign. And very early in to the to the. Kevin (13:26.125) you Daniel (13:43.165) Everything was fine. She was fine. But our daughter leaned in to roll the dice and accidentally caught her hair on fire on the candle. And, um, and, and Kristin, my wife, very quickly jumped in and put out the fire and she was fine. But that kind of, um, I mean, it wasn't hurt at all, but it kind of, it kind of put a damper on our, on our touch. When our, when our child's hair caught on fire briefly. Um, but we say the, um, on the flip side, uh, Kristin and my wife, Kevin (13:58.828) Oh Daniel (14:15.165) experience points from it and so she was so for putting out the fire but so that's all we have done but then you know it gets I get to thinking you know I mean I have done other role -playing just not in game form like every September 19th September 19th is Kevin do you happen to happen to know the significance of September 19th it's okay if not I'm putting you on the spot here no no Kevin (14:16.555) Right. Fire skill. Kevin (14:39.82) Remember remember the 5th of November. It's not that one. It's not Guy Fawkes Day. No, I don't know. Oh Wait, wait, wait, is it is it up? Is it is it geek way? No, that's May. It's May 19th. That's May 19th. No, no Daniel (14:44.613) It's okay. September 19th. Yes. Oh, that's a great guess. No, no, it's in May. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every September 19th is international talk like a pirate day. Yeah. And, um, and, and, and for many years, I would just, I would spend a good portion of September 19th talking like a pirate. And so that's probably as close as I've gotten to role playing and over the course of my life. And. Kevin (14:59.404) And you do that. Daniel (15:15.141) But things like that, you know, just kind of being silly and putting on a different voice, putting on a different acting and trying. You're briefly in character, but like you said, this is high commitment. This is people who are in character for hours and sometimes days. So, so, so Quins is the host, the gaming journalist of this episode that we're talking about, of People Make Games. And, and, Kevin (15:23.466) Mm -hmm. Kevin (15:43.436) you Daniel (15:45.149) He seems to spend some time talking about both the benefits of jubenture. Kevin (15:50.188) you Daniel (15:55.325) He doesn't use the word risks, but... Daniel (16:09.757) Kevin, I think before. Kevin (16:12.216) Yeah, I was struck by this and of course we're linking to this in the show notes and things this episode or just look up people play games. Sorry, people make games. Daniel (16:13.565) kind of main one of your main. Daniel (16:18.237) What's the benefit of this? Kevin (16:32.907) but it seems to be a real social interest. And I wonder if it would be as big now if it weren't for the pandemic. I don't remember the timeline, but my guess is that this generation, although it's all sorts of ages and it's even on their television, evidently China, so it's really a national obsession, this game. And so it almost has a survivor element, TV show type to it. So you're playing a character and... Daniel (16:52.953) Yeah. Kevin (17:01.387) agendas. But I just wonder people. age, we've lost extended families, we've lost a sense of community in terms of living in villages in the middle ages or having a certain role in society. We're all able to so be adrift and separate and there's lots of good things from that. So I'm not trying to, you know, go back to the good old days, but I wonder if part of this is we just don't know how to connect with each other anymore and this is such a great way to, you know, what do you see? Daniel (17:27.709) Yeah. Kevin (17:34.923) supposed to do in this situation? What do I say? Well, here's the answer. You just make up stuff related to this piece of paper. So you don't have to show up and start smoking or, you know, go to a gambling hall or casino or go to a bar and you don't even like to drink or you don't like sports. You're going to the sports bar. Like this is something to do that's actually pretty healthy in terms of you're not or I guess it's it's it doesn't involve things that are bad for your health, such as drinking and. Daniel (17:42.369) Exactly. Daniel (18:00.933) Right, right. Yeah. Kevin (18:04.715) and gambling and that kind of stuff. So yeah, so many social structures have fallen apart and here's a way, this is how you relate to strangers. Because everybody actually wants to relate to strangers. We're just either we're anxious about it or we don't know how to start or it's too threatening and here's a way to meet new people. So one of the quotes you had brought up is, it's better than anything in the western part of the world for getting to know people. You have something to talk about with others for hours. Daniel (18:32.257) I thought that was such a bold statement. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he said he said in his experience or his understanding of it, like it would be weird if you. Kevin (18:34.763) So instead of revealing your secrets or making small talk, you get to talk about something that's made up. That's kind of cool actually, that's very non -threatening. Then based on that, you may have a lifelong friend and then you talk about real things. Huh. Daniel (18:55.005) did not go out to grab a meal together after playing Jibincho with somebody. Like even if they were a stranger to begin with. But you just spent hours talking to them. And like you said, you're given the topic of conversation. So it takes care of the major obstacle that most of us feel when we're trying to get to know people. Yeah. Kevin (19:04.779) you Kevin (19:19.691) And you get to share and have emotions but some of that you're hiding because they're not actually they may or may not be your own emotions you may get tied up in the story and you may actually feel that way as well, but it gives you a certain safety net of you're not having to Show all your secrets yet in terms of a relationship, but you get to share something about yourself Just may not be about you. I Mean, it's really interesting. Yeah it's almost like a Daniel (19:36.129) Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (19:49.803) It's like we're being forced to be pathological liars in a very safe way. So yes, people are crying, they're going to feel something. It's a weird growth for folks and it's a process of self -discovery. And again, in some ways it's a game, it's an open -ended game. There's not necessarily a win condition, it's more about the interactions. Daniel (19:58.038) Yeah. Daniel (20:13.248) Right, right. He said that it surprised him about it and it surprises me hearing him talk about it that the more he dug into it, the more he realized that for players of Juventia, it's most of them play it not for the thrill of figuring out who done it. Like they don't really play it for the thrill, the satisfaction of doing a logic deduction puzzle and figuring out who the real murderer is. They do it for the opportunity to roll Kevin (20:40.564) Right? You don't win in this game, except for by having a really great time. So in some ways, it's the purest play there is. Daniel (20:41.828) That the means is the real reason they do it. They don't do it for the end, right? That they, yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to learn a lot of fiddly rules, you know, like, and that comes with layers of abstraction. And in some ways, role playing eliminates... Kevin (21:06.732) Mm Daniel (21:10.948) You can't always eliminate all abstraction, but eliminates a good chunk of the abstractions where, you know, now instead of saying this little wooden meeple represents me in this world, you say I am representing myself in this world, you know, and yeah, yeah. And. Right, right. Kevin (21:23.596) Yeah. Yeah, and I'm looking at your face because I may be wondering if you're lying to me as the character. So I'm not looking at a meeple that's flat. I get all the wonderful, you know, all the different signals you're sending from your body language and your the way you're holding your eyes, your mouth. I read a great book. I think it was Cal Newport. Deep work. But basically the human brain has evolved to have complex information thrown at it. And that's how we can read. Daniel (21:46.149) Hmm. Kevin (21:54.214) you know, somebody's gesture and based on how our brains like that. And that's why computers and email and internet is so hard on us because our brains are kind of bored because they want to read microaggressions because we're made for that. And so we're getting that in this role playing game. I'm getting, you know, well, Daniel seems like he's hiding something. Daniel (21:55.686) Right, right. Daniel (22:18.964) Yeah, yeah. Right, right. There's no emotional context, but or if we if we is or if there is, it's very easy to misread it. And yeah, and email and tweets and all of that. Yeah. Kevin (22:22.284) my brain is just delighted to crack that nugget versus, oh, I have to send an email attachment, you know, if there's no depth to it. Because why would Daniel lie? You know, like that's... Yeah. Kevin (22:40.337) Right. Yeah, we don't have the body language, the voice, the timbre of your voice, your energy level. We enjoy reading all of that on a certain level as humans. And so you're getting that in a game and it's fun and it's safe because it's not real. Again, like any good game, eventually the game ends and you walk away. Just why it can be so therapeutic. Daniel (22:47.474) Right. When I'm. Daniel (23:03.715) Right, right, right. Yeah. One of my mentors in pastoring named Nancy, she gave this piece of advice that has stuck with me. She said, unless it's about the weather, don't put it in an email. And I think that's such great advice, just because it's, yeah, without the clues. the nonverbal communication that comes with looking someone in the face and seeing body language, all of that. Daniel (23:42.737) messages can get so misinterpreted. And so that emails, texts, tweets, they're really very subpar media for communicating emotion, the subtleties of emotion. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:45.516) Right. Kevin (23:49.58) you Kevin (24:00.677) They can do it somewhat, but they actually get bored because they crave that stimulation of a thousand different points of data from your face. I can say, you look tired, right? And you don't sound it, you don't say it, but I can read from your face, you look tired. And that's what my brain is trying to do all the time. And a screen doesn't do that. It's just pixels. Yeah, it is kind of cool. And that is probably why Zoom Church never worked for me, because I'm just like, oh. Daniel (24:10.984) That's so interesting. Daniel (24:17.8) Right. Daniel (24:22.76) That's interesting. It makes sense. Daniel (24:32.808) Now, if we were, I'm working on a meeple face right now and the meeple face just doesn't communicate anything. It's except that I am made of wood and a half inch tall. But otherwise there's nothing else really you can, that's right. So yeah, so because of I think maybe all of the, Kevin (24:40.676) Right. you Kevin (24:50.212) And if you knock me off a table, I will survive. Daniel (25:02.184) emotional dimensions that role playing involves for people. Yeah, like you said, the players, according to this report, find the experience very cathartic and emotional and like self -discovery, like they learn things about themselves and being this other person, which is so fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. But he also, yes. Kevin (25:17.991) Mm -hmm. Kevin (25:23.715) So amazing. Kevin (25:28.213) Now there are some questions. Yeah, there are some questions here because some of the material gets kind of shockingly disturbing, right? Daniel (25:36.104) Right, right. He doesn't use the word risks, but I guess I might. We can talk about risks of this. And I find this, it introduces a really... Kevin (25:42.596) you Daniel (25:48.69) hard subject for me to wrap my head around. And I'd be so interested to hear your thoughts on this too, Kevin. And I almost kind of felt like we should tell our listeners and viewers now, just a little content warning, we're going to be getting into some a little bit more difficult stuff here and including just talking about the subject of like sexual assault and things like that. So if that's difficult. may want to skip over the next part, but he talks about, yeah, that they're going along and they're playing this game and all of a sudden, yeah, there's like a sexual assault in the story or something like that. And he talked about how, I mean, they were going to video themselves playing a game. And at that point, they felt like they could not even show the video of it, even though, I mean, of course, they saw... Kevin (26:28.419) you Kevin (26:34.421) you Daniel (26:55.433) And he brings up a point that... Kevin (26:59.684) you Daniel (27:01.066) I don't have an answer for. You know, these are games about murders. Which, seemingly... Daniel (27:11.978) by all rights should be a disturbing subject too. What it put me in mind of is... My wife, Kristin and I, we are fans of the classic genre of the British murder mystery shows, right? And there are tons of those British murder mystery shows. And it seems like every little village in the UK has murders that are happening all the time, right? Because there are people who are trying, and the vicar will solve the murders, and the priest will solve the murders, and the... Kevin (27:50.821) these underemployed people to have time to investigate. Daniel (27:52.779) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've heard the genre referred to as a cozy murder show, right? And we feel that way. It's cozy. We'll, at the end of the day, just kind of get cozy on the couch and watch a good cozy murder, British murder mystery. And on the one hand, that seems fine. On the other hand, it's a show about murder. You know? And... Kevin (28:21.925) Okay. Daniel (28:22.635) And why do we find that, why, so why do we find that comfortable and accessible and fine and even in a strange way, cozy? But then there are other forms of violence, like assault, that we feel like crosses a line. And I'm not saying, that we shouldn't think it crosses the line. I just don't know what to do with that. I think it's true, but I don't know what to do with that. Why is it that... Daniel (29:04.364) as a species, I don't know, as a people, as a culture, we find in some ways kind of the ultimate act of violence, murder, an acceptable form of evening entertainment. But other things not. And I don't know the answer for that. Do you have any thoughts on this? This is making sense at all or? Kevin (29:28.325) Yeah, well, I think, I mean, it's so interesting and I don't have a real answer, but in terms of our fictional imagination, we need something to happen, right? So if you've ever read to kids like Thomas the Tank Engine, they're cute, but nothing happens. Like the worst thing that happens is Thomas is late and then everything at the end is fine again. So nothing, kids' stories like that are not interesting. We need conflict. Stories are based on conflict. And... Daniel (29:57.357) All right. Kevin (29:58.179) And we also like things that are kind of risque. So you go back and read the Greek tragedies and the Greek mythology. They've got gods cutting up someone's children and serving it to the other god as a dish, you know? And there's all sorts of rape and incest and violence or Medea kills her whole family in a jealous rage because her lover has left her. And these are considered classics of Western literature. Daniel (30:18.636) you Kevin (30:28.387) So there's the famous bit, the playwright Chekov said, in a good story, there needs to be a shotgun over the mantelpiece, because at some point, someone's going to fire it. And so it's just a part of our imagination that we need something kind of crazy and wild. Otherwise, we're stuck with Thomas the Tank Engine, or two middle -aged men record a podcast, and no one wants to play that game, right? Like, that's not exciting. But. But you know, two middle -aged men do naked sumo wrestling over the affections of a girl who happens to be his sister but used to date. You know, like it starts getting weird and complicated and then someone has a gun and you're like, oh, I want to know what happens next. So we need something, we need things to be interesting and exciting and dangerous. And maybe that's part of the catharsis is the knowledge of I can feel these things and then it's over, it's finished. I'm okay. So horror movies and others have a great message of survival That even if everyone else dies you have survived right you get to experience fear. It's kind of like a It's like a roller coaster, right? You feel absolutely terrified Vaughn and I don't like roller coasters side note, but people that do they're after the thrill They want it to be terrifying and scary at the end. They're like, let's do it again And maybe part of that is the catharsis of feeling fear in a safe way. I Daniel (31:40.976) Right? Kevin (31:57.257) And maybe that's part of what happens with sad movies or horror movies or violent things as we see it. And if you have an imagination that's clearly demarcated from reality, you get to feel those feelings and then go back to the real world. If you're a psychopath, then you're like, oh, now I have instructions for, right. But for the rest of us, you know, it's just imagination. So I guess that's how I would approach this, that in China and other places they may be more comfortable socially talking about these themes in the setting that we aren't. Now we have them in our movies and TV shows. There's all sorts of sexual violence depicted. Maybe in different ways over the decades, maybe less so, but we're okay with it in books and movies, TV, but maybe not in role -playing. But... I don't know, maybe we should, maybe it's just a cultural thing. Because you make the note in our show notes here that maybe we're so patriarchal in the West. I think this is what you're getting at, right? This is what Quinn's in the episode suggests is maybe it's a very patriarchy that keeps us from exploring the real feelings and the realities of what sexual violence is like, which is mind -blowing. What do you think? Daniel (33:06.64) So this is what Quinn said, the host of the show. Yeah, go ahead and say that. Yeah. Daniel (33:21.327) Right, like, well, no, I don't know either. But yeah, I mean, you're right. That's what Quinn said, the host of this video. His theory was in a patriarchal society, in a society where we, you know, primarily run by men and focused on the male experience that... Kevin (33:42.947) you Daniel (33:44.239) that maybe this. Daniel (33:49.936) that may. Daniel (33:54.154) partially rooted in wanting to ignore and not wanting to give much thought to a violent crime that disproportionately impacts women. I mean, of course, it can impact men too, but it's not proportional. It's not equal, of course. And so he saw it maybe as a way of wanting to... Kevin (34:12.483) Statistically it's hugely, yeah, it's not, yeah, absolutely. Daniel (34:21.553) kind of marginalize maybe in some ways, indirectly, in a weird way, because it seems like you're doing the opposite, but marginalize the experience of many women and not wanting to talk about it, pretending like it doesn't happen and not taking the experience of... Kevin (34:29.075) Bright. Daniel (34:44.273) women seriously and I thought that was it was a haunting insight. Kevin (34:49.599) It's discomforting. Yeah, yeah. Just because something explores a topic doesn't mean it's condoning it. Stephen King has been married with three kids and lived a very boring life despite the crazy horror novels he's written his entire life. He's clearly not the serial killer he describes in his books. So he's in no way... condoning this, but for whatever reason he keeps wanting to tell stories of horror. Not always, because some of them are, you know, he's written other stories as well, but yeah, it's very interesting how he approached fiction and subject material, and to some degree it should make us feel uncomfortable and should push us, but then there's also a point to where it's too much, and so in the West we often have the idea of trigger warnings, kind of letting people know that... Daniel (35:42.823) Right. Right. Some safety measures. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Kevin (35:43.234) these topics will happen or there's a way to signal, hey I'm getting uncomfortable we need to stop. And it sounds like in China they don't do that at all and that I don't know you know you don't want to if you're creating a fictional world you don't want to spoil or surprise you know things and yet you also don't want to make people start reliving trauma so it's it's a it's an interesting dilemma to deal with. Daniel (36:09.939) It is, it is. Yeah, I don't have the answers for it, but it is really interesting to think through. What it makes me think of is, you well, no, I don't really have anything else to say on it. It's a hard topic. I'm glad that you brought it up. And one that needs more pondering for sure. Yeah. And listeners, you might have some view on this. Yeah. Maybe our listeners. Kevin (36:30.817) No, it's fascinating. Yeah. And I love that it's cross -cultural. Yeah, yeah, if you have thoughts or particular stories that you'd like to share of where things were handled well or maybe not handled very well, we'd be interested. Daniel (36:43.967) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (36:54.913) Instagram, send us a message. But yeah, I appreciate the conversation and it is definitely an issue of the human imagination is hungry for these kinds of stories to some degree and how you walk that line and push the audience without actually emotionally harming them is tricky. And the fact that other cultures might think of it differently is just mind -boggling, but it's really cool that the world's that interesting. I know when we were visiting Italy, I saw baby food, like they had fish flavored baby food. You ever see this? They had like salmon baby food. And it was so weird. You know, like the little puree jars. And you're like, that's gross. And then you're like, but why not? Why can't little Inuit babies eat fish? What's that? Daniel (37:36.731) I've never thought of salmon baby food before but now that you mentioned it, pureed salmon? I mean, I could think of worse stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (37:49.409) Yeah, I would eat that now. Heck yeah. But you realize sometimes our cultures... I mean, it's the cool thing about traveling that you realize your culture isn't always right, even though it just seems right because it's your culture and you grew up with it. You assumed it and knew what I was talking about. And maybe China has a different appetite for violence than we do, which doesn't mean it's in their world, it just means it's in their imagination. I don't know. But it's fascinating. And... Daniel (38:10.163) Yeah. Well. Kevin (38:17.409) Part of his question is how we translate this genre of role -playing games to the West in a way that works. Daniel (38:21.455) Right, right. And that kind of brings up his last main point in the video, which is, I guess what he kind of sees maybe as a threat to the game, which is what he perceives as kind of increasing state interference in these games and increasing state censorship of these games. And kind of is advocating for... ways to allow the games to be. Daniel (39:00.499) translated into other parts of the world. Kevin (39:01.601) So yeah, Daniel's referencing that the Chinese government has sought to... They sort of realized recently that they've got this cultural behemoth and they're concerned about some of the morality of it. So they're starting to either censor the televised versions that are being played or the publication of things that they're deeming to be immoral. And so again, that shows a cultural... Daniel (39:23.167) Right, right. Which I think it. Right. Yeah, and as I understand what he said, I think I think one of the. Now, once of that is the violence like the the. Kevin (39:30.207) you know, we so value freedom of expression in some countries in the West and so that that's another cross -cultural experience. Daniel (39:52.107) the state reducing that or censoring that or I don't know. It ended in a very deep place, I feel like, in terms of almost kind of geopolitical questions and conversations in the video. He is, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (40:09.602) That's quins for you, man. That guy always has a spin that he's just a... I just love to hear what his mind is chewing on. I like to see his work. Daniel (40:20.243) My favorite Quinn's moment related to that, much less important, was I was a few years ago, I was watching his review of the board game Trajan. I don't know if you've ever played the game Trajan, but yeah, I really like it a lot. It's a good Steffenfeld game. It's yeah, it's good. So he was giving this kind of glowing review of Trajan. And then he and then he says something like all of which. Kevin (40:30.081) I haven't, I've looked at it, it looks awesome. Daniel (40:50.131) goes to make this game a great Steffenfeld game or something like that. And then he says, or does it? And then he kind of announces classic game review plot twists, at which point I think he grabs one of the Trajan wooden arches in his mouth and pulls it off the board. But yeah, I didn't see it coming. And he's very good at that, yeah, of kind of creating a plot twist. Kevin (41:06.624) Yeah. Daniel (41:19.891) in the review or going in a different direction. I think he ended up actually not liking it very much, near the end of the review. So yeah, yeah, he keeps you guessing. So getting back to the positive benefits of role playing, kind of growth, catharsis, self -understanding, building community in these easy ways, it got me thinking, Kevin, on a... like if roleplay has so many good benefits and if roleplay is simply you know assuming the um the the posture behaviors of what is not normal to you. Do we need a game to roleplay? Is there a way that we could gain the benefits of roleplay just like... Are there a way of incorporating kind of the benefits of that just into everyday life outside of games? Do we need a game to roleplay? Kevin (42:37.217) you Daniel (42:41.043) me, anyway, it got me thinking about like, I guess, religion specifically, you know, I mean, in a way is not to say that it's anyway, like, false or unreal or pretend, but are there certain elements of that in, in religion too, in religious life, like, you know, we, we enter into this space of worship, and, um, Kevin (42:54.337) Right. Daniel (43:11.699) We're not trying to pretend to be somebody that we're not, but we're also not quite playing the exact same roles that we did outside of the walls of that place either. You know, we talk about being a family and we are a family and that's real and that's true. That's family of faith. But it is also a different role than what we typically play in the rest of our lives. I don't know. Any thoughts you think? Kevin (43:29.521) Yeah, oh god, there's there's a lot there I love this idea that you're developing Daniel. I mean in some ways some ways when we are at worship. We are trying to be our best selves, right? And that's a language that I've picked up the way to talk about sin. You know, it's like you're being, you're not, sin is your least best self or you're not your best self. And church is a chance to try to experiment living with our best self, which may mean bringing guilt and shame and fear, hopefully to release that and... Daniel (43:55.083) Mm -hmm. Daniel (44:14.815) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Daniel (44:22.073) Mm -hmm. Kevin (44:22.241) to be reminded of who we really are. So in some ways, all church is aspirational, that we're always aspiring to our best selves, and we really need that. I guess it's like going to Weight Watchers or something. It's reminding you of your best self and where you want to be. Now, you're going to go through the rest of the week and struggle, but you keep going back to a meeting. And I'm speaking as someone, I'm just guessing at what Weight Watchers is like, so apologies if I'm not being accurate, but. Daniel (44:28.563) Yeah. Right. Daniel (44:49.599) Sure, sure. Kevin (44:52.001) least how it's worked traditionally, you know, you're putting your best foot forward there and you're going to stumble and fall, but you keep going back to be reminded of who you really are, despite sometimes not being that person. And church kind of functions that way too. But then I also think in some ways you're right. So in some ways we're role playing our best selves, I guess. But in a weird way, we're also role playing, I think, as you're saying that in some ways that's not really us, because nobody can be in church all the time. as if we're supposed to be in church, in paradise. Like, really, paradise would also mean you get to go fishing if that's your thing. It's not mine, but hey, you do you, right? But you would do other stuff. You'd have other interests. You're not, in fact, there aren't any churches in the book of Revelation, right? There is no religion, or it says there's no sacred scripture in the last chapter of the Bible, because, like, everybody knows the Lord, I think, is kind of the application. Daniel (45:24.664) Right, right, right, right. Daniel (45:50.22) Oh, I think like say something like no one will say, know the Lord for the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for everyone will know the Lord or yeah, yeah, something like that. Kevin (45:52.753) Or there is no temple or something? Yeah, yeah. So I might be stepping beyond the text a bit, but this suggestion that, you know, that life's not just about being in church all the time, right? Church and Bible and other things are things we need in this world. So yeah, in some ways we are play -acting. Daniel (46:11.884) And that porous... Kevin (46:16.213) in a way that's not real, because if you stayed in church all the time, you'd starve to death, because you've got to go to the kitchen, you've got to go to the bathroom, and you've got to get some vitamin D. So it is like a weird play acting that we need for the rest of the week to do the stuff that we do, which is not church, which is mowing the grass. I don't know. What do you think? It's like a weird escape valve. Daniel (46:34.56) Yeah, no, inside and outside the walls of the church, that's a great thought about in those terms. But I mean, in a way, it makes me wonder, like, you know, if we if we are playing the role of our best selves in the church. And by the way, I mean, you know, I think and I think this is what you would you just saying in different words what you're saying, you know, but just for our listeners. you know, play acting our best selves doesn't mean, you know, pretending like we're perfect. I think it kind of, kind of opposite of that, like play acting our best selves means, I mean, role playing our best selves means our best selves are the selves that are honest about where we've messed up, right? You know, and our best selves are not the selves that pretend that we're perfect, right? So yeah, yeah. So... Kevin (47:21.893) Yes, yes. Kevin (47:28.469) Right, right, no. Daniel (47:31.98) But you know, if we get enough practice role playing in that way outside, in the church, that it gives us the capacity to role play that way outside the church. And if we role play that enough outside the church. Kevin (47:41.889) Yes, yeah, Daniel (47:51.308) then at some point does that just become us? You know what I mean? At what point does that become our identity? And maybe that's the ideal, the goal maybe of at least some organized faith. Kevin (48:05.013) Well, and this is very Martin Luther, that we are sinners, but when we treat ourselves as if we are saints, because that's how God is treating us, when we consider ourselves to be justified, we're still sinners, but we do start to change because we're being treated, when you're treated as if you're something else, you kind of rise to the occasion. It's one way to think of Luther, and there's some great movies that... Daniel (48:27.788) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (48:33.695) Are working with this idea like the iron giant, you know, he's this killer robot, but he gets damaged. Have you seen iron giant? Right and he gets damaged and he forgets it. He's this Daniel (48:36.432) Mm -hmm. Yeah, it's a great a great movie. Yeah Kevin (48:43.595) this war machine and this little kid is so kind to him and then when he gets repaired he decides to not be a war machine like he decides to be the the loving creature that this child treated him as and that's a real message of the Christian gospel that to be the prodigal son if you know that parable um that wonderful parable of Jesus to be the prodigal son welcomed home means you kind of stop being the prodigal. Daniel (48:54.18) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (49:08.784) Mm -hmm. Kevin (49:09.577) Right, and so yeah, churches, churches, I mean most sermons, my experience and watch Daniel disagree, but most sermons is me saying all the stuff I ought to be doing that I don't do because that's of course what I'm mostly interested in. I'm mostly talking to myself and am I being a hypocrite? Yeah, but are we all hypocrites? Yeah, we're all hypocrites because we all have our best and ourselves and we're always struggling and of course you put your best side forward and hopefully you grow into it. Daniel (49:17.992) Oh yeah, no, I totally agree. Exactly. Daniel (49:38.636) I totally agree. Yeah, I often tell people that the first person I preach to is myself. I'm preaching this. Kevin (49:41.091) Right. Yeah, so it's so I guess it's weird though to think in terms of this game in China in terms of jubincha is that's really not their best self. And so it's not the self they're growing into. It's probably more of a way to. Daniel (49:46.828) Yeah, I'm with you, I'm with you. Daniel (50:01.452) Right. Kevin (50:06.881) build relationships with others, and also a bit of catharsis, which is the Greek word from the ancient Greek that Aristotle's using, that it's a purging, it's a cleansing. By identifying with something very negative and re -experiencing it in a safe way, it makes the burden lighter. So it's maybe cathartic about the fears that people feel of being unsafe. Daniel (50:16.184) Mm -hmm. Daniel (50:23.676) Right. Kevin (50:31.329) But insofar as it is a play acting that's actually helpful for the real world, it's very much a game and it's very much religion. I think you're right. It's a special thing we do that's not life, but it makes life better. If it's healthy. Daniel (50:43.308) Yeah. Daniel (50:48.972) It reminds me a little bit of the work of Derek White, the geek preacher that we've had on the episode before. You know, I think he runs Dungeons and Dragons groups for people and as I think beneficial, helpful groups. It also reminds me of a group we've talked about having on the show, but never have yet. The Bodhana group, the Bodhana group, which is, I think uses gaming as kind of... for therapeutic measures. But I think the idea of using role playing for therapy is out there and has some strong proponents. Kevin (51:18.777) Mm -hmm. Kevin (51:25.717) Yeah, I think that is going to be an ongoing I suspect that will continue to grow because clearly games are helpful for kids and It is helpful in all sorts of adult situations too and trauma I would think it'd be very useful in the right environment to come to grips with some things. Yeah Or to be self -aware, yeah, which games can do? Daniel (51:31.244) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (51:42.572) Yeah, yeah, right, right. There is. Right, right, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (51:53.061) So would you go play this game Daniel But you're not excited are you you're not excited Daniel (52:03.468) I'd say if... Yeah, if I could work it out to kind of find some time to do this, I would be willing to try it. I'm not sure I would, I'm not sure it's something I do all the time, but I would try. Yeah, I don't know why, but yeah. But how about you? I think you're pretty excited about it, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (52:21.249) Interesting. I would totally love it. I would even eat it up. I would think it would push... I'm more of an extrovert. I'm kind of maybe in the middle, but more on the extrovert side. I think it would just push all the right buttons for me because I love social interaction and I love... I think I would really just... Yeah, I think I would thoroughly... But I may be wrong. You don't know until you try it. I've played some D &D, Call of Cthulhu, like I was saying, and that was more of about the adventure. Daniel (52:38.764) Yeah. Kevin (52:50.401) I've never tried anything where you really roleplayed. I've never really acted or anything. I might, yeah. Oh, I'd probably be terrible at it in the end, but I would really enjoy it. But I don't think I could lie very well. I think I would just die laughing. Daniel (52:53.772) Yeah, yeah. I could see you eating it up. I could see you being really good at it and enjoying it. Daniel (53:07.34) Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure you would do well. Not giggling is hard. I think that's probably one of my downfalls. I have trouble pretending to be... Kevin (53:25.921) Huh. Daniel (53:28.112) Intense. It makes me giggle to try to pretend certain emotions. Anyway, anyway. Yeah. Well, maybe it'll come to the US and maybe we'll get to find out. Kevin (53:39.669) Right. I'm sure that the glories of capitalism means that there are people working to translate it because there's money to be made here. And that's where capitalism is. Daniel (53:54.36) Even as we speak. Yeah. True. True. So well, a good video. Thanks for suggesting the video, Kevin. Good conversation and discussion. Kevin (54:12.481) hats off to people make Daniel (54:14.508) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And next episode on Board Game Faith... Kevin (54:23.857) seasons of life and gaming. Daniel (54:26.91) Yeah Kevin (54:28.385) the kind of the various stages that game hobbyists go through of being excited and collecting and then maybe getting a little Daniel (54:40.908) Mm -hmm. Kevin (54:42.273) Maybe figuring out which type of gamer you are and what game - Daniel (54:51.404) Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Kevin (54:56.801) to our audience and be sure to follow us on Instagram and subscribe to our great newsletter. It's free and it's fun once a month and contact us by email and any other way we can interact with you. Daniel (55:11.372) Yeah, yeah, email is boardgamefaith at gmail .com or info at boardgamefaith .com. And if you like our podcast, if you happen to think about leaving us a review on Spotify or Apple podcasts, we'd appreciate that so much. That helps other potential listeners and viewers to find us. So we'd appreciate that if you feel so moved. Kevin (55:35.361) Yeah, you're awesome, we're awesome, there's other awesome people out there, they just don't know it yet, so help us. Daniel (55:40.764) Yeah, yeah. You are awesome listeners and viewers. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. And we hope you have a great day filled with all sorts of cool roles to play. Daniel (56:01.476) Thanks a lot, bye bye.