[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place! I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I'm joined by 2 wonderful guests I have Dennis (he/him) and Simón (he/him) yeah. 00:11.80 Dennis Hello. 00:11.69 Simón Hello. 00:14.18 Jala Yeah, y'all already know these folks they have been on other episodes. But here we are again today and I am very excited to be talking to these 2 guys about navigating toxic masculinity particularly from like a parenting angle but just in general also because I want to talk about this with. Both of you because you both really have been guys that I know who like defy the toxic masculinity in so many ways and um, yeah, and like because of that I'm like well I I definitely need to talk to you and see like. 00:41.77 Dennis Well, it's kind. 00:50.75 Jala What's your perspective on the other toxic masculinity episode that I released last year lance in particular was talking about his experiences growing up and his struggles with like even currently still working through a lot of the toxic masculinity stuff that he was kind of programmed in you know? ah. In indoctrinated into when he was younger. So um, I'm I'm curious how both of you ended up the way that you did so you know that's where we're at but first and foremost how are you all doing today. 01:25.80 Dennis I'm doing great I Think thank you for that intro and it's probably important to say off the top like I'm still very much in process of this as well I think it's something that you never you know you never stop moving or growing on so happy happy to come out and talk about it and. 01:42.67 Dennis Um, I'm also excited to just have some people to spend dedicated time bouncing thoughts off of because like I'll learn as much from this as I as I have in the past I'm sure. 01:54.29 Simón Yeah, totally, it's ah I definitely had that feeling with the other episode I was on that just being able to have a really focused conversation about things you really care about for a while is doesn't really happen Organically. Ah. That often in day-to-day life if you're grabbing a coffee with a friend or whatever. So It's yeah I'm sure I'll learn a lot from from both of you as well. 02:20.30 Jala Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Um, so Dennis you were on the Portal episode. You were also on the episode that was like Furia Games and your particular stuff but like you haven't been on one of these um you have have you been on one of these did I miss. Okay, no no, you haven't been on the topical episodes before. 02:32.75 Dennis No, those are the 2 02:37.80 Jala Okay, cool. So that's that but then Simón you have done 2 topical episodes you did ah the Heritage and Heredity and you also did the Diversity and the Next Generation episode. You did two. You did two. 02:51.77 Simón Oh my God did I Um so that's part my poor memory that's awesome. It's been a. It's been an interesting couple years. So forgive me. But yeah, no, it's is awesome. 03:00.33 Jala Yeah, yeah, you were on a couple of them. It's been a minute since the last time I think heritage and Heredity was last January So um, you have not been on since then so yeah, cool. So anyway, ah both. 03:15.79 Jala You all do stuff but like Simón I don't think you're doing anything active that's on the internet. Do you do you do anything. 03:21.33 Simón Ah, now not really I've ah you know I've been a musician most my adult life but ah hasn't really picked up too much after ah, having a kid and pandemic kind of one two punch there. So yeah, not nothing really publicly available. But I ah. 03:39.27 Simón I Do a lot with music. Um, and I'm I'm dabbling in some Rpg writing stuff. But again, that's like embryonic at the moment. So. 03:44.38 Jala Who cool, cool and also Dennis you are also on the level podcast from Duckfeed Tv Mainstay of that for ever in a day since before it was The Level. 04:00.36 Dennis Yeah, since it was Stand Under the Don't Tree and Riddle Me This. 04:02.27 Simón And oh man I That's that's about when I was aware of I remember that name because I was like Wow that is a bold choice. 04:12.17 Jala And yeah, yeah, but you also have Furia Games tell everybody about what that is. 04:17.56 Dennis I Do Yeah so I I had the idea for a a card game something that kind of mimicked the feel of a magic the gathering or a Hearthstone but was a a solitaire experience. Um and and just. Got the urge to make it a real thing so developed it Kickstarted it and it's out in the world Now. It's called Deck of Wonders. Um, and I intend to continue making games in the Future. Both kind of sequels to Deck of Wonders. It's It's got a bit of a modular and story-based format. So it lends itself very well to. Ah, expansions and then as well just other fun ideas I'll be at Origins al'beit Gencon this year. Um, and I should be showing off kind of my my next game called Dueling Pianos. It's a domino versus game. Um. 05:09.29 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, and for listeners. Um, if you weren't around at the time that we did the Furia Games Deck of Wonders episode. There is an episode with Dennis that is just about his stuff and like. How it all came to be in all of that and it's definitely worth checking out for sure. 05:10.10 Dennis Tickling the ivories as it were yeah. 05:10.80 Simón Nice. 05:27.56 Simón And I also know Dennis as a ah hardcore Xcom enthusiast because I think when I was playing through it. Ah, there was a lot of Xcom talk on the level. So I definitely remember messaging Dennis and being like so. 05:31.60 Dennis Um, yes, ah. 05:42.97 Simón What do you think about like this build like is that how you get around that base. But yeah, that was a lot of fun. Yeah yeah. 05:44.51 Dennis Ah, we did a lot of dying together. 05:52.45 Jala There's no better way to do it I guess so yes, and as for this show. Ah, we now have swag it's on TeePublic! You can look for fireart media and you can get a Fireart Media shirt, a Jala-chan's Place shirt, a Monster Dear Monster shirt or if you're one of the few folks who are coming to Jala-con 1 in March there's that shirt too. So yay, um, we also have our Ko-Fo so it's ko-fi.com/fireartmedia and there are extra goodies there including bonus shows. Including stuff where it's like written works from me and Dave it's also got Cutting Room Floor. That's a show which is kind of like more of this you know, um the the bonus episode for this month for Cutting Room Floor is actually deep dive into. Some of the cultural elements of Godzilla Minus One that were not on the Monster Dear Monster episode about that movie. So ah, that'll be me and Dave chatting about that. Um on A Glass Darkly which is the ah extra bonus writing show will have the beginning of Aplasia which is a story I wrote. And that'll be continuing for a little bit before we dive into something of Dave's we might do some alternating months or something like that. So. It's not just me every month. Um, and then also we have Omakebox which is abunch of little random stories mostly um in the moment when things happen I hit the record button and I go oh my god I got to tell everybody about this thing that happened and um, they're actually very funny. Um, sometimes there are memories of very random things from my so you know in storied history. But um. People really like those stories they think they are fun and they're like never thought I really needed to hear like 30 second stories from you but this is amazing. So those are all available on Ko-fi. So check those out and without further ado that's all of the. Admin and such we can move on to our topic today. Yay I know this is great I was saying in the grain room I'm like I don't have to do very much this episode this is great I can just. 07:48.91 Dennis All right jumping in. 08:00.32 Jala And this is amazing. So um, yeah, oh please please I think I will have more trouble trying to get you'all like to answer all of the questions in the time Anyway, let's go ahead and and kick it kickstart it going off with. 08:00.69 Dennis Clearly you don't understand how in its inarticulate we will be. 08:14.14 Dennis Oh man. 08:19.91 Jala What does your masculinity mean to you so that would be like listing off some qualities that you associate with masculinity in general I asked this question on some of my other gender episodes when we were talking about just general concepts of grappling with femininity or masculinity or you know non-binary just like gender. In general. So starting off at the top. What is masculinity to you I will throw 2 Simón first because you look very pensive. You're like oh no, don't go throw to me first. 08:48.80 Simón Oh boy. Yeah well that we'll see how prepared I am those passive like boy that yeah yeah, so what is the meaning of life simot. No ah yeah, ah, that's a good question I mean as far as like some some qualities I associate. 08:52.31 Dennis Let's just throw a nice softball to get us started and real easy one to get it. 09:05.45 Simón With it. Um I think for me, you know, having a sense of ah I guess being able to remain kind of calm. Ah, even Keeled. Ah. Compassionate um, and you know hardworking or not shying away from what needs to be done. Um, those are some aspects of it for me. Ah, you know I'm I've never been a you know a big macho man kind of guy. Ah so. 09:44.25 Simón Yeah, yes, yeah, the Jala has was flashing her her amazing guns for a moment there. Um, but yeah I you know I've I've never ah like in a lot of ways and this will come out during the episode in a lot of ways. It's like I kind of have the luxury of so being outwardly. Kind of masculine by default but also navigating a lot of social spaces where you know I'm transgressing that in some way and so it's it's kind of given me ah a measured take on it. So it's not like it's one of those things where it's not the like the most important thing to me. But. It is. You know it's it's a present thing in our daily life. So I've I've kind of learned to ah find a version of that that feels true to me. 10:32.23 Jala Right? right? And so the thing about gender and whether it's important to people is a really interesting kind of topic that could be its own podcast episode in itself because like gender oftentimes. Is important to someone when it's not something that's basically invisible like they're on autopilot with it right? So people who are somewhere on the gender spectrum that do not align with their assigned at birth sex. Those folks would have like a lot more gender in their brain you know like they're thinking about it all the time because. They don't fit the mold that they're put into like say. For example, that's one of the reasons why Dennis might remember that when I the very first episode I was on The Level I was like finally you got a girl on here and and then um and then Ben's like you've got to represent all women everywhere and I felt really ah and was like ah no, and. 11:17.97 Dennis Ah, yeah. 11:26.64 Jala It was because like I don't fit female box hundred percent so like I I'm somewhere on the gender spectrum. That's not 100% on the the femme side. So like you know it's it's a thing where it's like oh no, actually that makes me feel really really uncomfortable. So you know, um, it. People have different levels at which they are conscious of and like engaging with their gender and that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't necessarily important to you. It's just that it's not something that you have to consciously grapple with per se so we'll find out as we go through the episode how it works for you? Um, definitely Simón. So Dennis how about you? What does? ah masculinity mean to you. 12:04.20 Dennis Um, yeah, um, like I alluded to this. This was the question as as we you're very kind and send these in advance and this is the one I kind of sat and thought about the longest just because. It feels like 1 of those things that you know, but then you try to pin it down to words and it it gets very slippery. Um, so kind of where I arrived after after thinking about it for a while um we'll probably get into it later in the episode. But I think of manhood. Um as as kind of a code of honor of sorts. 12:19.87 Jala No. 12:37.79 Dennis Um, it's ah it's a set of ideals to be lived up to in my mind and so masculinity ah to me and you know as I interact with it is the fact that my internal disposition kind of how I interact with the world and and my internal monologue. All that stuff. Um, and then the cultural expectations I experience So The way the world interacts with me um, make those ideals particularly important to my ability to self-actualize and my ability to have a positive impact on the world. 13:08.40 Jala Right? right? and it's important to have that expectation piece in there because that's where I find a lot of schism because um I'm a son view Mill At birth and even though I ah you know have big guns and things like that. Um, when people. 13:19.96 Jala See me out in the world. They make a lot of assumptions about me and what's important to me based on my assigned at Birth Gender and a lot of times those things don't line up to actually me and so like those cultural expectations make me feel very very ah you know, ah odd and weird and and have like Schism. You know. Um, but those those same expectations especially when it comes to something like toxic masculinity which is you know, subject here. Ah those expectations that are placed on you by other men by women by Society Writ large those expectations are the things that end up. And forcing or or kind of like pushing people into toxic masculinity in a lot of you know, ah instances because they want to be part of the group they want to be part of society and if they don't fit the mold that they are given then they kind of like shoehorn themselves in and just you know deal with it because they feel like that's the best way to be part of the group. 14:15.24 Simón Yeah, like like there's there's identity and then there's expression and a big part of expression can be um, people or situations that are are asking you to perform in a certain way to kind of you know? ah. 14:33.10 Simón Either? Yeah ah kind of uphold the ideal or or you know, prove your to be trusted as part of the in-group or whatever and that's where that Gulf can be where where you can be very comfortable with your identity and and have a good sense of self. But um, yeah, it it can get weird when. People are like but like you,, you're one of us though, right? and like oh well,, that's you know, slow down I don't think I'm going to co-sign everything you say? So yeah. 14:54.82 Dennis Do do this to show. You're one of us. Yeah. 14:56.34 Jala Um, yeah, yeah for sure and so you know what I'm hearing from both of you is you know again, kind of like those ideal pieces like you have an idealized version of what. This means to you as part of your identity. This is part of who you are So. How do you live up to the best version of that you know which that's a little bit different than what toxic masculinity is which toxic masculinity is in very large part performative Masculinity. It's very much about. 15:29.58 Jala Ah, showing off 2 other dudes most of the time. Um, you know that's what it's more about is showing off to your homies more than it is about anything else. So. 15:41.50 Dennis Well I think to my mind toxic masculinity is the twisting of those ideals which are which are good things to to live up to um, it's the twisting of those ideals to 1 extreme or another um and then using that to judge someone else's or your own manhood. 15:58.76 Dennis Um, so Simón you you mentioned it and I totally agree like this um, embracing work when it needs to be done I think is ah is a masculine component a masculine ideal. Um, and you can see that twisted on the toxic masculinity side to either. You gotta work. Hundred and twenty hour weeks and you know if you don't have the grind set of whatever I think you had an episode talking about that Jolla right? The ah burnout culture and all that so it can go that way and that can be toxic but you can also have the um, the other extreme of like I'm going to avoid work at all costs I'm going to do the. 16:34.60 Dennis You know the fast money scheme and I got a you know Ponzi whatever and I'm you know I'm going to lay on a beach while money rolls in and you know that always falls short as well or you you project yourself as as better able to do that than than you actually are so. 16:50.58 Dennis Um, I think that a lot of toxic traits are healthy things taken to an unhealthy extreme. 16:56.11 Simón Yeah I think you ah kind of touched on like I think ah strength or you know power or ability those are things that you know can be used to you know tend to garden to to. Make sure your your harvest is bountiful or whatever. Ah you know or can be used to to subjugate or oppress or um, you know, try try to exert oneself you know on on other people rather than than Using. Ah. 17:33.82 Simón Those qualities to yeah, just build the life that you want and and build the world that you want which ideally is one that ah makes a lot of people happy and able to self-actualize and not ah you know trying to accumulate. 17:51.83 Simón Power or wealth or accolades or whatever. 17:55.38 Dennis Yeah I was talking to my brother who's ah, who's a dad of 4 a couple days ago and it came up that I was I was doing this and he said something I thought was very wise which was um Masculinity is like fire. You know it can. It can. Warm and and help and and protect. But if you don't control it if it if out of the right context it becomes dangerous and hurtful and and out of control. So Yeah I see that a lot. 18:23.69 Jala Yeah, yeah, so this kind of segues into my second question already. Um, which is about yeah we when we're getting there naturally but like um I wanted to ask ah, in addition to like what? what would you define as a toxic masculinity versus you know, a healthy masculinity. 18:28.82 Dennis But we hadn't already segued there right? kind of yeah. 18:43.42 Jala Is some like what are the most harmful traits that you think of off the top of your head when you think of toxic masculinity. What are the most odious ones you can think of. 18:54.51 Simón I mean oh go ahead. Dennis. 18:56.55 Dennis Um, oh sure. Ah, so I think I don't know if this is the right word for it but domination. Um, you know, bulldozing other people and asserting your will by force. 19:11.31 Dennis Um, without consideration of others I think is is a big one in my mind um tied in with that is anger and and ah Anger is another thing that I think has an appropriate context but can very easily get spun out of control. Um, and then the final one that. 19:29.10 Dennis Ah, is a little little more ah under the radar but but more sinister to me is certainty. You cannot doubt anything you have to have all the answers in in my own story I've seen that be particularly destructive. So so yeah, um, you know. 19:49.24 Dennis Domination Anger and uncertainty. 19:49.50 Jala Well and that certainty oftentimes leads to someone if they are questioned or if something proves to not work out the way that they you know are saying that it's going to then they double down you know and that's that's where it gets worse because it escalates quite often. 20:07.90 Jala And that's kind of like the thing about toxic traits in generals because they aren't extreme. That means that you are not stopping when someone says something to you and go huh, Let me think about that and re consider my position you are. Doubling down and doubling down and doubling down and making it worse and making it worse and you know, ah going to a further place with it as you continue, you're not stopping and thinking about it and you know looking at this other perspective right? Yes, exactly. 20:36.12 Dennis It's got shades of fixed versus growth mindset to it if if anyone's familiar with that. 20:41.90 Simón Yeah, yeah, So I mean I think ah to go along with the the domination theme. Ah I mean obviously like on the extreme end you have things like like violence or you know like physical ah physically being imposing or that sort of thing. Um, but yeah I think I think ah Anger definitely which I'm sure we'll get to this later. But um, there's kind of a axiom that like Anger is is like the the easiest feeling to like. To feel or identify. You know as opposed to like disappointment or ah, you know more more complicated more conflicted emotions and I think something that goes along with that is ah you know it. It becomes kind of a weapon. 21:33.67 Simón Or defense or something like like you know if you're walking around with a hammer. Everything looks like a nail right? Ah and that can be more comforting than saying yeah I actually don't I don't know what's going on I don't I don't have a lot of guarantees in this life I Ah maybe can't do everything that I'd like to do. Ah, instead it could be well actually you know I'm Hammer guy and have something comes up when I hit it with the hammer and that usually works. Um exactly and so it's a lot.. There are a lot of things that are just masking. Ah. 22:00.64 Dennis I can make you afraid enough to not tell me I'm wrong therefore I'm right. 22:11.50 Simón Deep insecurity and fear that I think are tied to 1 ne's value being tied. Ah or you know being dictated by um, you know, being correct all the time or ah like like leadership being. Ah. 22:30.76 Simón This thing where you just like always make the right call and everyone's happy instead of being something where you put forth a good faith effort try to be considerate when things inevitably don't go the way you want um or someone is disappointed. Ah, you know, try to do better. But it's it's hard to accept I think that ah you can't really bat a thousand and people that insist that they are um, they kind of weave themselves into their own web where you know they. 23:06.12 Simón They can't back down because they've if if you've been saying I'm sure we'll get to this with with talking about parents and such but yeah or older adults when you have people that have spent decades um dodging every point where they could say you know what? I'm I'm pulling the. Fire alarm here I don't I need some help I don't know what's going on. Um, if you've spent like 50 years doing that. Um, it becomes pretty hard to take that leap. You know. 23:32.91 Jala Well and part of it too is because the way that men are raised in our society is such that they are basically. 23:45.50 Jala Told to suck it up and not to express or think about emotions and that's a lot of what makes everything kind of funnel into anger because as you said Simón like that's where everything funnels right? It's easier to identify that and that's partly because a lot of men in our society. Don't get any kind of. You know, clue in about what they're feeling and where it's coming from and they're told not to to think about that kind of thing because that's weak that's girly. That's not what men do men just suck it up. Bootstraps go on and and whatever right? so. 24:21.68 Dennis Yeah, you just touched on something that I think is at the core of a lot of how I think about masculinity and manhood and all that um the don't be girly thing. Um the notion that the manhood is on an opposite pole from womanhood. 24:37.49 Dennis Or that being manly is the opposite of being girly that misconception drives so many toxic behaviors because there are there are good and valuable things in femininity for every human to embody and you need some of those things to be healthy. Um, and when you. 24:55.45 Dennis When you define yourself as not feminine to be manly. Ah yeah I think in in in your other episode on this, you talked about the idea that only allows you to be half a person. Um, so yeah I'm I'm sure I'll do more soapboxing on later on you know the opposite of being a man is not being a woman. 25:03.67 Jala Yeah, yeah. 25:12.84 Dennis It's something else. 25:14.54 Simón Yeah I I think ah you know there. There's also the ah the version of that in which people you know don't want you to be girly because that is inherently you know do like. 25:32.48 Simón Degrading like it's It's yeah know like ah, ah lesser ah a lesser form. Ah, if if you should be you know I'm a man or or masculine so that ah that can play into it as well. But yeah I think that um. 25:49.71 Simón I Saw a lot of people you know coming up in like hardcore and and punk and stuff where where there there is a lot of kind of intensity. Um Anger being worked through all that sort of stuff I encountered a lot of people and I I was a person. Where I had a lot of negative definitions as in I'm not that you know I'm in opposition to that like that you know f that burn that down. Um, which I've you know there's a place for but I definitely felt myself come to the point where I go. Okay I know a bunch of things I'm not. But. 26:28.58 Simón The thing I'm having trouble with when I'm you know trying to fall asleep at night is okay, but like who are you you know? Okay, you've you've you've carved away some of the marble here but like what yeah you still need to have some kind of. 26:45.46 Simón Identity at your core. You know what makes you you and I think that is a harder journey to go on than you know I'm not ah you know insert any number of terms. Ah that are probably borderline slurs that men throw around all the time you know about what they aren't or what. 27:04.54 Simón Men that ah you know aren't aren't doing their version of masculine performance are. 27:08.27 Jala Yeah, for sure. 27:11.58 Dennis It's It's never as effective to just move away from something bad. You need something positive to move towards. 27:19.32 Jala Yeah, yeah, negative reinforcement is not the way to go in the long run for ah, basically anything. Ah. 27:23.85 Simón Yeah, like I'm not I'm not landing on that Island I'm not landing on that Island I'm not landing on that Island and you're like boy this ocean Shore is big, be good figured out where I am going? yeah. 27:32.89 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely so ah, shifting along what is your earliest memory of learning about masculinity like who did you learn from what did you learn from them and how did you pick it up. 27:36.62 Dennis Ah, that's that's good. Yeah. 27:50.52 Jala Because you know a lesson is not necessarily something where someone is dictating a thing very often kids as you both know kids most of the time are just sponges that are just absorbing everything around them so you could have very well had retained a memory in your head of a thing you absorbed without being told anything. So I'm curious what you got. 28:15.32 Dennis I've I've got a memory from probably when I was I mean I had to be under 10 and and first off to what you were saying you know I learned masculinity from my father. And I think for for most boys who have a father in their life. Um, you know it's it's almost impossible not to learn it from them. Um, but yeah and and he taught a lot of positive and amazing things. But um, you talk about the earliest memory and in a very early, very powerful memory for me was. Being on vacation with my family met another kid another boy. Um, at our you know wherever we were staying and we we spent the entire day playing together. It was awesome. We had so much fun I I don't remember anything about what we did but it was just like this is a blast and we're both here all week. This is gonna be the best vacation ever. Ah, and then the next day I guess there were there were 2 other families that this kid was vacationing with that got in a day later and so there were a bunch of other boys that he was with and he was like a different person just completely ah acting differently. Um, being mean towards me and and you know his friends were being mean towards me and I didn't understand what was happening and I blurted out and I remember this incredibly clear I said why are you doing this to me man I love you and you know I was I was at the age where that you know that didn't have any other context than just ah, um. 29:43.59 Dennis Ah, broad sense. You know, um, but immediately the entire group of boys you know, cracked up ratcheted up 10 times on me what they were doing. You know we're picking on the kid for something that I said um and just you know the rest of that week I spent avoiding this group instead of. 30:02.60 Dennis You know what? I'd hope for and and that was the first earliest lesson I can remember on you know oh because I'm because I'm a man because I'm a boy I'm not allowed to say certain things or act in a certain way. Um, and and I think thankfully that became a big motivator for me to be like all right i'm. I'm going to be the friend that sticks up for the other guy. Um, but I could very easily see that having driven me towards okay got to conform. 30:27.54 Jala Yeah, yeah I was definitely the one who it's like what do you tell me that I cannot do up what oh let me show you I will proceed to show you and I will kick ask doing it as a matter of fact, so yeah, yeah. 30:42.70 Simón Yeah, ah, it's ah it's a tough one because like Dennis you know I obviously even for I had speech was probably absorbing a lot ah from my father's example and stuff. But I guess some moments i. 30:44.84 Jala How about you Simón. 31:00.95 Simón I Remember our like playground kind of things you know I I lived near the elementary school I went to um so we'd go down and play at the playground a lot. You know, um and you know I I remember a time where there was some. Group of kids We didn't recognize that were like a little bit older than us that um you know wanted to start some kind of trouble they were you know oh like hey you don't play on that we're going to use that and I'm like well we were here First. We're here all the time. Um, and you know it kind of escalated into like. Name calling and like well we're going to fight you and like that kind of stuff. Um, and I remember just being like that whole situation was like why like why do you care like why does any of this matter and it was definitely I could tell with that group. They had the kind of like you know there's the older brother and then there's like the younger. Kids trying to be like I'm also large and mad and just the whole thing just seeming like a lot of really unnecessary Unpleasantness Um, and then kind of on the flip side. It's weird that I've managed to ah ah come up with. 32:12.62 Simón 2 memories with physical conflict in them I promise I was not in like streets of rage ah in my elementary school but I remember ah my best. My one of my best friends that lived down the street for me. He had a little brother. Um. 32:29.26 Simón And so we were all in elementary school together. We were probably in like second grade and there was this older kid in third grade. Um, who was just kind of a bully. He was not nice. He tease a lot and we just kind of blow him off like whatever man. Um, until we were at some kind of school event. And he was really hassling. My friend's little brother and that's the thing it's like hassle me, that's 1 thing but like he's way younger than you and like you know you're just being the worst. So what I remember is even though this kid was like older than us bigger than us was like mean probably had like actually punched people by then. 33:06.80 Simón We just kind of had this like like there were 3 of us. We just kind of like Voltron our way into just like toppling him over and then like since we were children and not violent like our solution was like we're just going to like sit on him and then he can't get up. We're just going to like sit on him for a couple minutes like yeah like you can't do anything if we don't let you um and it was just kind of silly but that was kind of an example where it was like hold on like I have the chance to to use this strength to be like hey stop being a jerk like why don't you just let people be. 33:42.84 Simón So it's kind of the ah I I Hope that doesn't seem like too much of a non sequitur but it did kind of make me think of like that's one of those cases where it's like okay like time to like be tough and it's like yeah, but we're like being tough so you'll leave my friend alone. You know. 33:55.10 Jala Yeah, well I have a similar story myself. So um, you know I'm I'm not the the main focus here. But um I learned of course um masculinity from my father who was a career iron Worker. So I had a bunch of. Construction Worker guys in my house and all of that. So ah, the type of type of masculinity I absorbed was all toxic Masculinity. You know, um, all construction Worker Macho guys you know and that kind of thing and so later On. You know I I grew up also like working with my dad at his construction business and and fixing things and doing whatever and so later on but like when I was dating guys who um, at one point I dated a guy who he he was raised by a single mother. He never did any kind of um, you know like. Construction type stuff at all and we were trying to build I don't know what we were building we were building something in my backyard and he was over um because we were all building it together and he just jumped when I turned on the table saw because you know it's really freaking loud and I just like. Yeah, because this guy was also toxic to me but like in a different Way. He was toxic like telling me that I I wore the pants in the relationship and I needed to be more feminine and this that and the other meanwhile I was looking at him and going you. You can't even use a table saw what is wrong with you. You know or whatever you know so we were both terrible to each other. 35:22.23 Jala And that's because of um, the way that I learned masculinity when I was growing up so yay. Um, but yeah, like when I was on the playground too. Um I found myself in a weird place because I didn't fit with the girls because I didn't want to play house and do whatever and I you know I wanted to play ninja turtles and stuff. But then like. Ah, the boys didn't let me do that and they kept on trying to pick on other people like other girls and boys who were younger and so I got real mad and I was like you know and I've told this story many times about the ninja turtle thing in particular. But um I had pulled together a bunch of tomboy friends of mine. And we all went up to the boys and we're like well you know what we're not going to be. We aren't April we aren't you know Irma or whatever you know I think that you are ah cloned turtles from dimension x that were sent here by crang and we're going to beat you up because we're the real turtles. And we beat the crap out of them and the same thing happened when it was ah ghostbusters and I wanted to play ghostbusters and the boys said you can be secretaries I think that the ghostbusters have been possessed by ghosts and they need an exorcism guess what? there's a female ghostbuster in town ready to do that and. Ah, chased after them beat them up and they left me alone but I also protected. Yeah, right? right? so so yeah and so like you know um I ended up but then finding myself in a weird place which is basically how I found myself for from then on. It's like. 36:37.42 Simón The the littlest Fanfic writer right? there? yeah. 36:39.44 Dennis Yeah, right, Good logic is amazing. 36:52.30 Jala I don't fit the girl box 100% Definitely don't also fit the boy box I don't know where I fit in there but I don't know where I am but I'm protecting all the little boys and the little girls from these boys who are being mean and picking on them and like physically pushing them or or otherwise acting like Jerks. So um, this is me and this is my way as right there. In the middle. So. So yeah, that sucks. But anyway um I learned bad things. Hopefully you guys learn better things from parents. Um, so. 37:26.20 Jala Ah, what cultural influences bore weight on how you particularly found your expression of masculinity and how that evolved over time I know Simón you already mentioned like the hardcore and punk scene and how that kind of. 37:37.75 Simón Yeah, yeah, so like for me I Um, like my father was and and still is a big ah kind of influence and and role model to me, not like a hero worship way. But um. Yeah I hear bodies most of the values that I Ah really care about as far as just like you know, being very decent to people you know, being kind and kind of modest and humble. Um, you know, well not. Also not being a doormat or or being walked upon or anything. Um, so I definitely had ah a lot ah of that that I've absorbed and kind of carried into adulthood and also the way that I parent. Um. 38:29.80 Simón But yeah I I think Jolla you mentioned kind of being like in between um, you know I like I was always one probably the tallest kid in my class or like the second tallest kid in my class. You know I was always like. 38:46.10 Simón You know tall and ah as I got older. You know I'm um since this is an an audio medium. You know I've I've got ah a beard and I'm Harry and like Nba tall and you know have kind of a lower voice and all this stuff. So um. You know the the assumption is sort of like oh yeah, there's you know a masculine guy. Um, but also not in other ways, not feeling comfortable with it or lining up with it. Um, and I think like yeah with with punk and hardcore and that sort of thing. Um. Well, it's it's sort of funny in and some ways they're 2 extremes because at least in in the city I'm from um hardcore was actually like an incredible amount of toxic masculinity which is why I kind of left. 39:39.38 Simón That scene entirely by the time I was probably like 20 um, because even though there were cool people you know, including a lot of like women that you know they were just as dedicated to obscure music and and hanging out and doing potlucks and all this cool stuff. Um, but there is a lot of stuff where like. You know it could be kind of masked as sort of like the fun. You know back Pat you know like we're all on a like like sports team kind of vibe to it. You know I'm just messing around and I'm just hassling you. You know we all break each other's balls. Whatever um, that sort of thing where. Then you kind of view it long term and you're like you might be so like so joking about that. But you start you know you start to get that sense of like I think there's an underlying belief there though because I see your other actions. Um and then getting into like the diy punk world where you know more. 40:37.20 Simón There There's more like explicit kind of political ideas being explored um like you know people directly talking about Feminism and Queer theory and all this stuff. Um, so that that was that that's been interesting because it it still retains a lot of Intensity. Um. And kind of like extreme artistic expression and and radical politics and that sort of thing but um, kind of part of participating in that world is like yeah if if you bring in those toxic elements. It. It really isn't seen as compatible. Um, and so over the years I've I've kind of seen. 41:15.54 Simón Certain conflicts pop up where you know someone's coming from a sincere place of of feeling this need to kind of like have this expression or or you know lash out against society or something but then you know, kind of it has to be pointed out to them that like okay, but. I Don't think you're old enough yet to understand this broader context where like maybe you're also like like you aren't just the one who's being put upon you are now interned kind of putting your crap on to other people. So like I get it I've been there, but let's. 41:53.77 Simón Redirect this. 41:55.44 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and Dennis how about you. 42:01.34 Dennis Sure Yeah I mean I feel like fathers are going to come up every other question here. Um and and man like masculinity and manhood and all that stuff is I think very much a passed down thing. 42:15.48 Dennis Ah, either from a father or from a father figure or or someone that you view as deeply understanding manhood like that you can't escape that and so definitely like my dad was a huge influence on it. Um, he actually lost his father when he was very young. Um, and it drove him to be a real student of manhood and specifically fathering so he went and basically found himself father figures and mentors and and that sort of thing and then thought about it in a very um you know direct avert way that you Know. He might have never had to ah so that you know I benefited from that for sure. 42:54.96 Jala Oh and the thing is is that like you're one of a bunch of boys right? like. 43:01.72 Dennis Ah, yeah, so there are there are 4 boys in our family. There are also three girls so there's just a lot of kids in our family. Ah, um, it's interesting. My brothers and I have have kind of you know, talking around a campfire whatever compared notes and it's interesting to see. Ah. 43:16.91 Dennis You know, just how parenting styles and everything changed from kid to kid to kid and there's a speaker I heard at one point that talked about you know he he had 3 sons and he said you know my my older ones will say about the younger ones like man you you do so much more of an intentional job with him or we never got that sort of stuff. 43:35.83 Dennis And and he replies. Yeah, he he definitely has a father excuse me a better father than you guys had um and so you know you just you just watch how people change and and that's interesting. Um, culturally I think the biggest influence on on my concept of masculinity growing up was the Church. So Yeah I grew up very religious and in what I'd now identify as kind of a fundamentalist. Um, ah you know borderline Nationalist church ah very isolated and kind of the the term I use is a holy huddle. 44:14.56 Dennis Ah, you know, big us versus them mentality and and very very traditional. Um, and I think that that came with some positives of you know something that I don't think either of us have talked about too much is the idea of like you are you are manly because you can bag a lot of women. Ah, or you can you know you have a high body count quote Unquote um and that that just wasn't really a factor in in Christian culture for a lot of obvious reasons. Um, there were there was some more subtle things that were were tough. Um, you know there was there was the complementarianism I guess you could call it where. 44:51.51 Dennis The the idea that like men and women are are opposites in the way that a man exhibiting Feminine qualities is bad and a female exhibiting too Many masculine qualities is bad. They need to be separate because we all know how well separate but equal works. 45:05.72 Simón Right at Adam you be Adam Eve you be eve and never shall the 2 meet. So. 45:09.94 Dennis Yeah, and yeah, um, and I think you know they they taught to it wasn't like women are less than it wasn't to that extent. Um and they taught you know you should respect women and and you know women should feel safe around and all that but I don't think. 45:28.38 Dennis My particular experience was that they did the hard work of actually then and going and doing that it was easy to just kind of stay segregated like guys only hung out with other guys and girls only hung out with other girls and if there was a crossgender relationship. It was immediately like well are you thinking about asking her to marry you just just whacka. Do um and that that. 45:48.40 Dennis I think nipped in the Bud Some of the positive qualities that could have come from. Um, you know a culture that that was not focused on getting whatever you could from women as it were um, the other thing that I mentioned earlier was this idea of certainty. Um, so it was a church that was you know we have all the answers. 45:55.56 Jala Yeah. 46:06.79 Dennis We understand it all perfectly and there is nothing. You can do to change our minds on that and um, that combined with kind of a patriarchal structure where men are the default leaders. Um, and you as a man are expected to have all the answers. Ah, to defend everyone from from forces that would make you less certain and and to be certain yourself about everything. Um, that kind of mindset I think brought a lot of toxic masculinity in just not being open to learning and growing. 46:40.33 Dennis And and and coming at it from a point of I have nothing to ah gain from from other people's perspectives. Um and I think this one as I thought about it for this specific topic has ripple effects out Onto. You know, a lot of ways people see church in in society just generally just anti-science attitudes that come out of the church come from. Well there's this new new things that we're learning from Science I can't be interested in that I have to immediately shut it down and say it's exactly what we were describing earlier. You know how this. 47:12.42 Dennis It seems to not line up. Ah you know I need to defend my position. Um, you know the? yes yeah. 47:15.60 Simón Every question becomes an attack that either is invalidated or needs to be like vigorously defended against and. 47:25.95 Dennis Yes, and yeah I'm I'm still in the faith today and and I think in a much I hope a much healthier form of it. Um, and and you know it's a command for us to continually be transformed by the renewing of our minds like. 47:38.69 Dennis The the idea is that you are constantly open to new information and constantly assuming you don't have all the answers and stuff. Um, but my the church I grew up in was was be certain that was part of being a man. 47:50.83 Jala And I will say too that so everyone everyone goes through phases where like they're you know, learning how to open up and grow and be receptive like not everybody like yeah, there's there's parts where um parts of your life where you are told and it is reinforced that you need to like. 47:59.95 Dennis Ah, we know. 48:08.93 Jala Not question everything you know, um, especially like um your authority figures and stuff like your parents or teachers. Whatever they're going to tell you that you can't Question. You just need to follow the instructions or do whatever and not not ask why this is happening or whatever and um. As a result like that often by the time you reach you know adulthood you're out on your own. It can lead you to be really really closed off you know, depending upon the person but like um, you know everybody goes through phases where like it is true that you are kind of closed off from stuff Sometimes it's because like you have. A lot of stuff going on in your life and you just don't have room to add more stuff to question and think about on top of the other things going on for you. Um, and other times like I said it's It's kind of like cultural conditioning but ah. When you do open yourself up to become more receptive and to learn from different perspectives and stuff like it's amazing because the world is is like you're a child all over again and you just see everything in the world and you're like Wow that's neat. Everything is neat like since I've been doing this podcast and we've been talking about topics on this show. It's been Fun. And every single time I do the show because I get to talk to people about topics that are important and get their viewpoints and learn every single time I do an episode so you know and that's um, circling back around. That's kind of part of what makes it bad with the toxic pasculinity and there is toxic feminity as Well. Um. 49:36.53 Jala Because like those toxic behaviors that extremist behavior that extremist point of this is this This is this over here and having that kind of binary in your head of what is and is not and there's no inbetween.. There's no negotiation. Um, that means that you're stagnating. You're in a Rut. You are not going to grow. And you know that's that's and then when you perpetuate that then you've just got like a lot a whole culture that is just stagnating and stagnating which is where it becomes a big problem. 50:06.68 Simón Yeah, and Dennis you know you were. You're speaking about ah coming up in a church and you know I I came up in a more like I guess mainline protestant you know, like kind of just you know, hymns and fairly generic sermon and you know. 50:21.66 Dennis The chill christians. 50:24.69 Simón Yeah, a lot of you know, ah a lot of I mean plenty of like kind of uptight people. Ah but also a lot of like really you know sweet people that were family friends and and were were're good. Good adults to be around you know and and a healthy sense of community. But yeah, it's it's interesting. 50:44.14 Simón Thinking about the ways that toxic masculinity can manifest in the situations because you know Dennis had 1 flavor of it. Um, but in some ways a lot of ah, a lot of being kind of pious. In american christianity. Um, is you know a lot of like the big sins ah could be construed as as you know toxic masculinity right of of you know violence domination of others coveting um just general kind of nastiness. 51:13.97 Dennis Sure. Yeah, oh absolutely. 51:23.12 Simón But you know in ah, a real inspired stroke of Maildom ah you know they said all right? So if that's bad then let's focus on how you know most things about your fundamental nature as a man ah are. 51:42.21 Dennis Yeah. 51:43.10 Simón Bad and need to be constantly. Ah, you know suppressed and kept in Check. Um, which you know I think probably 1 of the more obvious things people discuss would be. You know like things like sexuality right? You know you have someone that they've been Told. Ah, certain lessons all through their life and then they're like oh actually. Ah I've got feelings are those like normal they're like yes, but also they're still bad like oh okay so I I'm just I'm just kind of sick by default. Okay I Guess I mean if you guys say so you're the they're the trusted adults on the room. Um, so that. 52:20.39 Simón That leads to either internalizing that which can cause some real harm or the weird thing of and I'm you know I guess depending how strict your your church or your faith is you get those people that are in between where culturally, they're very much Um, you know, still. And part of those worlds but they just kind of have that cognitive dissonance all the time of like well like I'm a person I think I'm okay with being a person I don't think like I hate myself but I kind of need to play the part and like to be clear I was more of the like hook line and sinker like. 52:57.59 Simón Yeah, like I'm just going to take this really seriously and you know feel bad about everything but you know I could kind of see those kids where like they kind of have that spark of like no like I think I think I'm pretty much fine. You know like I'm a good dude. Ah and that like that's not really. 53:15.52 Simón An option. They're like no no, no, our whole thing is like that's bad. We're going to be the opposite of that because that is good like that might be a little simplistic actually. Ah so yeah, that has some ripple effects for sure. So. 53:28.82 Dennis Yeah I think I think I spent a lot of my life afraid to like Knuckle down and really dig in to topics where you know something felt off felt like the church was missing something sexuality is ah is a gigantic one. But there's there's all sorts of. Ah, stuff where like you said I think a lot of people maybe are content to be like ah you know I feel some cognitive distance around this I kind of know what the church is saying but I feel like maybe you know it's ah good to be a more accepting person or or whatever. Um I spent a lot of time afraid to knuckle down on it because I was afraid I was going to confirm that there was all this bigoted as a shorthand but bigoted stuff in ah in the bible in in in christianity that I was then going to have to just you know deal with um and when I did Knuckle down I think. What I found was so much more freeing and like okay like when you come at this dropping your preconceived notions. Um, you know, really looking at context of the text and all that stuff like you come to this understanding or at least I shouldn't. You know, speaking in generalities I've come to an understanding of it. Um, that it's like man you know a range of sexualities makes sense that god would have that and and you know I can see things in the bible that talk about um you know, homosexuality and all that stuff and. 55:00.63 Dennis Understand what they meant when they wrote it. There's some just like Okay, what would they have known in their culture. There's some um, just blatant mistranslations. Oh go ahead with hearing where we're tangenting. 55:10.37 Jala I I just I just wanted to say real quick about um the religion stuff in general before I I forgot it? Um, so something that's real important to me because I I do a lot of studying of different religions like the root of different religions because. When it comes to religions in general. The thing that you have to always remember is that the original text the original concepts of this religion were what they were but depending upon the different political situations cultural situations. You know this that and the other individuals and what they're trying to gain out of it that they. Develop different things they get added in to that religion and added into that religion and so like you know what? what we have today as an american christianity and the various different flavors that it comes in. They're all filtered through different humans who have their own fallibility and their own. Whatever so. Like what it distills down to is like what you hear in your church might not necessarily actually be like what you would find if you were looking without those preconceived notions the way that you were mentioning Dennis so you know like for me generally speaking like it's very important to me that people. Always kind of examine anything. That's really important to them and kind of think about it in those terms and think about like what was the root of the thing you know like what is the root of this thing that is important to you look at that and strip away those those you know ideas that you have about it because you know you may find that what. 56:42.99 Jala Is is in your source material right? Ah is a little bit more ah you know is is different than what the interpretation has been presented to you as through these different filters that have come through. Some of it is translation like I had a whole course I took on sacred texts and how those evolved and that's fascinating and you know seeing all the different things that happened in the bible over the years for example and all of that. It's really fascinating stuff. Yeah, yeah, so. 57:06.51 Simón Yeah, shout out Bart Airman if anyone wants to read a little biblical scholarship while we're down this tangent now. 57:15.54 Jala But either way I mean like the reason why we're camping out on this is because this is really important and this is a lot of how christianity like christianity as the the dominant faith in the Us um it it plays into the american toxic masculinity. It's part and parcel of of a lot of it. You know because it. Institutionalizes it it backs it up in a lot of ways because of the way that it's being presented to kids you know and it's not necessarily that the church itself is doing that it's the constituency right? that has that their toxic masculinity and they're they're filtering it through. 57:52.85 Jala They're they're christianity and then explaining it to other people or or reinforcing it in those groups right? so. 57:58.10 Dennis Yeah, you you either don't fully understand it yourself or or like you said you're trying to filter it down simplify it. Um and combine that with the need to be extremely certain about it that getting which gets kind of chained. Um, yeah, it's like I said as I as I was thinking about. 58:00.45 Jala Yes. 58:15.43 Dennis All this stuff for the episode that element of certainty to toxic Masculinity Um is just so potent and destructive and particularly when when combined with religion. Um I'll I'll wrap up my my rambling thought and say like you know I think it is unhealthy to have. Undisciplined and excessive lust I think it's unhealthy to dominate other people with that lust who you know are not wanting it. Um, but I think ultimately as you look at how God Views gender um finding another person to be intimate with and and to make their joy your joy and and and that sort of thing. Um, is going to be a very free and unrestrained thing. Um I you know that's kind of where I've come to on it and and I'll stop the tangent there I guess. 58:59.75 Simón Yeah I ah stop me if I if I'm going to meta here. But yeah I think that um you know we've been taught like Dennis has talked about that that need for certainty. Ah you know I kind of talked about like insecurity and and and. People you know, projecting like well I'm right and shut up. Ah when I stop and think about kind of our our broader cultural moment where they're you know it like the whole culture war kind of thing of it's all you know this versus this own the so and so you know, ah. Sick burns clapback. Whatever like everything is is just you know this in opposition to this Um, and you know I think that the yeah the strains of religion of political thought. Um, yeah, it all does kind of trace to the same. Root of kind of you know anger insecurity or fear and kind of like Hubris you know of um, yeah, just just being like yeah we're just going to project this certainty and and if we dismiss everything else hard enough. Um. 01:00:15.70 Simón You know, then then we'll we'll come out on top. Um, and so and and I I mean I guess part of this is because the elections on the mind you know there's a primary going on and all that but you know that's why you see some some strange bedfellows you know of of people where you go Oh you know. 01:00:35.48 Simón I Wouldn't think these two are compatible. But if if what they have in common is is they both will say Yes, we are absolutely certain and absolutely right and they'll stay on lockstep. Um, yeah, then you know then they're like all right? we're you know us against the world right? Um because it's. 01:00:44.39 Dennis Ah, that's very true I had thought about that. Maybe that is absolutely true. 01:00:54.50 Simón Yeah, it's just strange that it really one of the most threatening things to a lot of people is the idea of saying I don't know whether it's do you know that you have this knowledge. Do you have this ability. Um. 01:01:12.97 Simón And you know I'm sure someone has like a fire Linkedin post about you know, like 1 conversation that changed my life. But um, yeah, you know I've I've definitely have had moments where I kind of stop and and took note of you know someone who's very. Accomplished you know if you look at their their cv or or hear the reputation from others and being in a conversation where they're like really listening ah and they go wow. Yeah, you know what I realized I really don't know very much about that at all. Thanks for sharing that? um, I'm going to have to think about that and where you go oh. 01:01:49.69 Simón But like you know it's someone that in that context and that that room or that conversation ah could have just you know spout it off whatever they wanted and everyone would have lapped it up and been like oh yeah, like they're really smart that must be right? Um, but yeah, just the idea of saying oh okay I think I have something to learn. 01:02:09.60 Simón Um, that is stuck with me and I've you know like I I'm in a ah power dynamic. You know in the sense of of teaching and at the University level where you know I remember having a couple teachers where if they were asked a question they were going to give an answer. 01:02:28.23 Simón Ah, whether or not they really knew what the hell they were talking about ah and you know I kind of vowed to not be 1 of those people. Um, and yeah I've I've seen how students react to when you know they tell me something I'm like I didn't know about that. Thanks for teaching me about that. That's cool. You know some kid might be like oh well. 01:02:47.81 Simón Got one over on you old man. You know you aren't keeping up. Um, but other people are just like oh ah, maybe actually what I have to contribute is valuable. Um, and all it takes is you know a little bit of honesty to kind of help ah fan that flame within that person to. 01:03:06.46 Simón Be like okay I've got I've got ability I've got something to share and I should let that out. 01:03:13.76 Dennis Yeah I Love that it um it makes me think of kind of the how that plays with the defender aspect of masculinity like I think there's ah, a masculine desire to stand in the gap for others to protect in a way. Although I think that's a loaded word. But. Um, but when that's taken to a toxic level and and you're like I can't allow I have to have an immediate answer because I can't give airtime to anything else that might be wrong because I've got to protect them from what I'm worried might be wrong. Um that you know. 01:03:48.00 Dennis Feeds on itself then to extend the Certainty. So there's yeah, a lot of ah value in in creating space. Um, and then being you know I think confident or calm I think was a word you had used earlier Simón enough. To you know, not be afraid of that space that something else might fill. 01:04:07.94 Jala Um, yeah, absolutely. Um. 01:04:08.89 Simón Yeah, think things that don't bend usually break and when people insist on being Rigid I mean I I think we all probably know someone who you know has a very fractured relationship with like parents or or extended family or something where. 01:04:28.30 Simón You know? Yeah, they have someone who's like just 100% like I'm just always going to be the same way all the time. No flexing or apologizing ever. Um and they maintain that and a lot of people maintain that onto their deathbed. Um, but along the way you know those kids that they're like trying to be the super ultimate protector for. Um, say I Actually I don't really see how I can possibly fit you into my life without you know, being harmed by your presence. Ah, and so it's like you know in a way that kind of seems like the ultimate failure to protect when you have written yourself out of their life. 01:05:07.12 Simón Um, but again, that's one of those things that when if you find yourself at that point where you know if you look at it soberly. It's kind of a rock bottom moment of like oh Wow I have made a major ah mistake in my life. Um, ah. 01:05:25.26 Simón Admitting any kind of problem like that is is very very hard and I think there are a lot of people that kind of look down into that abyss for a moment and they go Ah I'm not doing it. You know and they just kind of hope they can ah keep that inside and until they're. 01:05:44.42 Simón They're done here on Earth Um, but yeah I like those those are very sad circumstances. But I I think it's um, unfortunately kind of more common than than we realize that up there are a lot of people that just yeah, they stay they so they stand firm on everything. Until their life is actually very small because that's not compatible with other people really. 01:06:07.82 Jala And that's ah, that's a toxic masculine trait that also is exhibited by a large number of women as well. You know, ah toxic Masculinity is not limited to expression by men alone. So you know. 01:06:08.29 Dennis Yeah. 01:06:25.26 Jala That's a thing that also happens with a lot of women I hear a lot of that kind of thing about um, friends of mine who have schisms with her mother for example and it's the same thing the doubling down the the not questioning the assumption of the toxic masculine um mindset the patriarchal you know authoritarianism that. They then internalize and then project out at other people. So. 01:06:50.68 Dennis I've thought a couple times now about a framer for like the stages of parenting that I've heard about going through being the nurse the king the coach and the mentor. Um, you know there's there's a stage where being the king of your kid is appropriate. You know when they're 3 years old and they're running to play in the road. You don't try to explain to them why they shouldn't be doing that you yank them away from the road. Um, and you know you got to follow that up that kind of gets into the coach stage of then you start teaching and giving them more freedom and all that um. And and Simón what you're describing is kind of a failure to to transition from that king stage to the coach stage. 01:07:28.96 Jala It's bright. 01:07:30.86 Simón Yeah, and I mean I've definitely had um some of those kind of alarming moments as as an adult and then also as a parent where you know things get hard and you're like well you know like yeah if I Ah let my voice get a little bit Harder. Or I raise it you know or I come up with some kind of consequence that's going to make them sit up and notice you know like yeah I can I can get control over the situation I can make this go Away. You know like I can't deal with you know the screaming and crying or the whatever it is. Like I can make this go away. Um I think we've all had moments where that temptation is there. You know of but you you think ah is is that who I want to be is that what I want my kid to remember um and if you ever do kind of indulge that urge you're like oh like. That was a terrible idea. Um, So yeah I think that? um oh so I just saw I saw a Jalla Ah, okay, yeah, yeah. 01:08:38.92 Jala Oh I was just were leaning over. Don't mind me I was scratching my ankle. Sorry yeah, ah ok yeah. 01:08:39.88 Dennis Yeah I think. 01:08:43.79 Simón Ah, it's cool I was also losing my my thread of conversation there a little bit. But yeah I think I think just that the the idea of um, you kind of have the option to like reclaim that you know, ah tyrants ah thing you know the the ruler role. 01:09:03.24 Simón And it's it's infinitely harder to just be really patient and I think it took me a lot of time to realize I could um I could still be a person that had limits and boundaries and say I I can't deal with this anymore right now I'm going to leave the room. 01:09:22.17 Simón You know you're old enough now like you play by yourself for a couple minutes I'm going to come back when I can be calm and we can talk about it. Um, and that's something that. Yeah if if you're if you've never seen that in your entire life If You think all your uncles would a. Hassled your dad about it if he did it. You know, like then that just doesn't register as as something that you can do um because yeah I think a lot of it does come down to that that there are so many things that just don't register as an option because no one ever saw it in their own home and then if. 01:10:00.75 Simón They're in a neighborhood a community that has similar values and similar backgrounds. They don't do it either. You know? So then you got to risk being you know the weird one you know like ah where where the you know the vegan you know. 01:10:19.94 Simón Far out people on our street. Probably you know and it it takes a you know it takes a ah little bit of ah gumption to say like all right? Yeah sure oh I'll be the weird guy. That's fine. 01:10:30.82 Jala Yeah, well and that's that's part of what I was talking about like way back at the beginning of the episode too is like a lot of what drives toxic masculinity is that desire to be part of this group part of this community and you know humans are social creatures. We want to be part of a group and. 01:10:50.22 Jala To be like well aware of the fact that you're the weirdo over there is is a hard place to be until you realize that being the weirdo you actually have the capacity to influence a positive change on other people by being weird at being your weird self and um, you know giving people a window into. Other options that they didn't know existed so you know there you have it I am curious about. However, um, both of you are people that I think are like some of the least toxic. Yeah I wouldn't you know at least toxic masculine people that I know that are masculine people. Um, so like. Because of that I'm really curious about like what your relationship with your masculinity and your expression of masculinity has been over the course of your life like in broad strokes because of course everybody has a story and of course toxic Masculinity is something that is you are never done. Dealing with because you have to deal with it literally every single day It's in our society. It's in our minds. It's in everything around us. It's in our interactions regardless of how well we think we're doing you know So like yeah, it's a con ongoing Battle. It's always going to be an ongoing battle but you know, um. Where all have you been in your Journeys you know. 01:12:09.50 Simón Um, I'll jump in first if you don't mind. Um, yeah so I think ah for me like I said I I I had a lot of ah positive examples from my dad and you know I remember being like a teenager and and you know. 01:12:10.70 Dennis Go for it. 01:12:26.94 Simón Having a lot of big feelings as as I would say with my 5 year old right? of ah you know, just kind of this this all like the normal teenage stuff but then kind of you know other things of kind of being the only minority in the room and and you know being into weird art stuff and. 01:12:44.99 Simón You know people not getting in all all that kind of junk but I remember 1 thing that that my dad said at the time um, was about that one of the hardest things in life. Ah that I needed to look out for was learning to ask for help. Um. 01:13:03.47 Simón Because I think he saw a lot of himself in me and that was something that he struggled with um you know he's He's someone that um that getting into like too much depth. He basically had to assume the role of man of the house. You know in his early teens. Um and a large family and stuff and so. 01:13:17.76 Jala Yeah. 01:13:23.17 Simón He had to step up and shoulder a lot. Um and being in those roles then it it can you can get used to Well I don't I don't have to tell you Jala you know that you can get used to being the person that that ah that gets stuff done. Ah, but then at some point you got to take care of yourself too. Um. 01:13:42.55 Simón And and ask for help. Ah so that was something that you know I heard him noted it ah but could not truly learn that lesson for some time. Um and I I think part a part of my reaction to all of the. 01:14:00.46 Simón Sort of the big feelings of of adolescence and stuff like a lot of that was kind of real. You know alienation and and discomfort with the state of the world and all that stuff. Um, was just bottling things up and and kind of powering through and like to be fair. Can carry you pretty far ah because it really wasn't until sometime in my twenty s that it sort of ah was no longer a viable strategy. You know I I met who the woman who is now my wife ah and is building a relationship with her. Um. And that's kind of when it was became more apparent of like okay so just like powering through whatever's going on and being like I'm going to come out the other side and I'll be alive and then I'll just keep going and it'll be fine um does not work. Well when it's like someone else wants to know you and wants to understand how you're thinking and feeling. And you're like I don't have the tools to express that let's keep walking down the trail. Um that ah that works pretty well when you're like young and single and have a life full of novelty and adventure. Um, but then when it's you know you in a room. 01:15:12.78 Simón With another person ah living a kind of slower life. There's no getting around those things. Um, so I definitely kind of struggled with that of of like yeah realizing that I um, there's a lot that I tamped down in myself as ah. Either things to ignore because they're difficult or or things that shouldn't come out. Um, and I had I had the feeling as as an adult of just not knowing how to access that like it wasn't just I put it in the the chest and now I can open the chest up it was like no I like that's. Sealed the Donald dude like we don't know how to get there. Um and and desperately wanting to because it was it was ah a shortcoming you know it it was it was causing problems. There were things I wanted to be able to to share myself more fully and I didn't feel equipped to do it. Um. 01:16:06.71 Simón Now 1 thing that kind of resulted from that was then um, a good friend of mine ah kind of at the same time as I was trying to figure out how to deal with that. Um was involved with ah like a men's group kind of thing. Um. 01:16:24.11 Simón Really the the aim was to ah you know be in community with other men and kind of develop a healthy masculinity and and a place where you could ah you know, find others and and and share and and be empowered and all that stuff. And you know so I like went to this ah this gathering this event. Whatever they were having and was like Wow this like you know it was like a very powerful thing. Um and it was something that is as someone who came up in a religious environment and and left. Um you know, sort of like oh Wow. Yeah. Like the whole fellowship thing was really sorely missed in kind of the secular world. Um, and so there were some cool aspects to it. But then I found myself. Ah realizing after going to a couple more of those things that it was kind of like. 01:17:21.26 Simón Placing a different narrative on top of things. Um, if anyone wants to go down a little you know Wikipedia Rabbit Hole I guess this is something that's kind of in the vein of what they call like Iron John sort of things of like you know, like being a big you know like being a big strong man means like also like you got to like. Cry and know your feelings and like maybe read some Carl Jung and like hang out in the woods and you know, ah and that kind of thing. Um where it it ended up ah feeling prescriptive and some where it was like okay so you guys like I guess kind of in in the vein a little bit of of like a. 01:17:59.14 Simón Like a 12 step group kind of thing where it's sort of like well these are like the processes and if you just work those you'll get and I and I just found myself being like I just know like I don't feel like that applies to me that seems sort of limiting that doesn't really line up with my experience and so. That was kind of instructive in a way I was a little torn up about it because it was like I really wish this would have worked out well for me? Um, but you know you you learned stuff from that. Um, because I I made some progress with myself. But I also realized like okay there are some pitfalls along the way. So I I realize this is kind of a a long. Little ramble I've gone on but I think um, yeah in the end ah a lot of what I've had to settle on is kind of that uncertainty of like yeah, um, there's not really an answer I've gotten to know myself better by trying to Actually you know like listen and sit down and and be open to that. Um, but yeah, it's like yeah there there is unfortunately not the the book you can pick up. Um like if I just read this I'll have everything I need to? ah. 01:19:13.33 Jala Right? right? Yeah, yeah, well I know for a fact that that just in the time I've known you for how many years have I known you has it been like eight years nine years 01:19:14.14 Simón Be a whole person. It's like somebody makes that book. They're going to. They're going to do numbers I'm telling you but I I have not yet found it. 01:19:14.35 Dennis And that'd be nice. 01:19:30.59 Simón And I don't know every time I think about time I'm like I have been in a stuck in some sort of ah time weird. Yes, yes yeah. 01:19:36.66 Dennis Since since Pre Covid and other than that it doesn't really matter. 01:19:40.60 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know several years since before covid anyway. Um, but yeah, like in the time that I've known you um 1 thing that I will definitely say is that um, you've always. Been the type of person who is always present in the conversation and you know like you actually you're bringing yourself. You're listening and you're examining yourself and you have a lot of thoughtful things to say when you open your mouth or type your little message or whatever you're doing depending on the format. So um. 01:20:11.67 Jala You know that's something that I really appreciated just from the very beginning of knowing you and that's something that you know that's part of why we became good friends is because you know Like. We would have these high quality conversations. It wasn't just like you know, let me send you memes although now it's like a lot of send you memes because we're both real busy but like you know, Ah, you know if there's a we go through cycles. It's fine. But um, you know and so so definitely. 01:20:28.90 Dennis Tough. 01:20:40.70 Jala At the very least I can say in the time that I've known you like you definitely express the the kind of openness that is required for growth and you have been growing and changing the entire time that I've known you and that's a very non-toxic trait That's a positive trait. That's a thing we want right? So you know, um, that's that's been great to witness. 01:20:59.90 Jala You know and be part of over the years so um it sounds to me like when you first met your significant other that that was kind of like because of one of the other questions I got on here is like did you have a wakeup call or anything about like having to change stuff and it sounds like it was kind of like. 01:21:01.30 Simón Yeah, thank you. 01:21:18.87 Jala Being in a relationship and being a serious relationship and being like well this isn't working. 01:21:22.90 Simón yeah yeah I like I wish I I could have ah you know been like I need to change and then I changed and then it's all been fine because you know unfortunately yeah, that's right, it's like it took you know twenty something years to to get that way. It's going to. 01:21:32.35 Jala No, it's not that easy. It's not linear at all. 01:21:42.64 Simón Take a while to to untwist it? Um, but yeah I I think I think for me that was um, part of it of you know the relationship and also like life changing right? You can't just go hang out with your friends four nights a week anymore and all these things and. 01:22:01.70 Simón Yeah, just just but particularly yeah I I do think like being with someone was like okay we want to build a life together and you know she's noticing ways that I'm not really ah, ready to do that and it's I think. 01:22:19.32 Simón You can kind of take the easy way out of getting offended by it or or you know defensive because I think and this is this is still something that I've worked on with myself of like defensiveness. Um I think partially because you know. 01:22:38.73 Simón In my home environment and stuff. There was a lot of ah things where I you know I felt like I was doing things wrong and so I then I kind of flipped it by being very defensive about stuff as I got older. Um, but. 01:22:55.73 Simón Yeah, like that that idea of well you're saying I need to change in some way or that there's something that I am lacking even though you're saying it's attainable. Um, but I'm not a bad person so that couldn't be true because I'm good. Ah, and. 01:23:14.88 Simón If You have any kind of you know critique ah or direction I could try to Grow. That's actually yeah, like an existential threat to you know who I am ah and that's something that I wish I didn't still have some of that instinct in me. But I think it's it's definitely ah it requires yeah that openness to be like yeah I Guess you're right. 01:23:38.73 Jala Well and here's the thing so part of that is the presentation of the critique being given because of course you know that's some of it. But of course if you have a predisposition from like you know we can even call it trauma even if it's not necessarily. 01:23:44.24 Simón Sure sure. 01:23:54.60 Jala Trauma you know like it's a life experience that you had that got got you trained to this way that you feel defensive and everything you get this defensive mindset. This is your default setting and you go to that whenever you feel threatened like. You know that's that's stemming from a place of insecurity like you want to be ready. You want to do these things and it's kind of like what Dennis was talking about with um you know, not wanting to knuckle down on examining things within the church because he didn't want to see that oh actually now there's some some deficiency that I have to deal with. Right? So and and that's a normal human fear. You know, ah, the important part is is not that you don't have that because that's normal to have that the important part is that you get past that and that you can you know, get to your end result at some point. 01:24:45.62 Simón Yeah I think we all have times where we find being a human being to be humiliating you know? Ah, but that is kind of. We've got a few Millennia of art to show that that's kind of just what. 01:24:51.22 Jala Yeah. 01:24:52.51 Dennis Ah, very true. 01:25:00.43 Simón Being a person is and if you always get caught up at that phase and then are like now it's time to go hive make cave for a week until everyone forgets about me like well that's not really how you grow. 01:25:05.81 Jala Right? Well and so well and so part of it is is not just it's toxic masculinity and and any kind of interpersonal dilemmas that we face like this they're they're not just About. What Society's expectations are the box that society wants to put you in. They're also the box that you are putting you in you expect yourself to be this because you have a vision of you in your head that you want to be and if something comes at you that doesn't align with your vision of who you are in your head. Then that can be your moment of defensiveness where you're like that doesn't line up with my concept. My self concept so you know like you have to figure out how to grapple with that in a way that is Productive. So. 01:25:53.40 Simón Yeah I think and I'm sorry I'll stop monopolizing in a moment I think that the more that you ah ah I think this comes up more than people in their twenty s and thirty s is stuff where you might get disillusioned. You know you have places you'd like to be things you'd like to achieve. 01:25:57.68 Dennis That's not good. 01:26:10.42 Simón If when you're at a point in your life where you're struggling with those things of feeling like I thought this was going to be different I think that that ah that instinct that knee-jerk to you know defend the idea of yourself and and what kind of person You think you are or whatever. Is just stronger because you might not be very happy with the present and so um, you know you're like well I've been trying to do things and they aren't working so instead what I'll do is like cling to a concept. Um, and that's like it's hard because it's usually comes from a place of of like suffering but um. 01:26:48.49 Simón You can be suffering and still not be handling it. Well you know. 01:26:51.22 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure Dennis what? what is your relationship with your masculinity been like like that overarching journey. 01:27:03.10 Dennis Sure I think we got a lot of it So I'll ah kind of hit the highlights of you know, like my my dad was very intentional about being a present father and specifically from the angle of like I need to teach you Masculinity Masculinity I Want to teach you How to be a man. And I think that mentorship is is so valuable got a lot of healthy things from that and you know there there were some things that he modeled that also weren't so healthy. But um I think just just having a mentor that's trying in your life early on is is so valuable. Um, you know came. 01:27:37.76 Dennis Had that I think filtered through the church in some ah some you know distorting ways its own kind of brand of toxicity. Um, and then I was I was so good at being a legalistic Christian um, and then got to college and out of my holy huddle and realized oh my god. I'm not a Christian I'm a people pleaser like I'm I'm working this for approval and and suddenly just turning into a you know a hypocrite and ah have no sense of identity when it stopped working to make everyone like me. Ah, yeah, exactly. 01:28:11.91 Simón You're trying to get an A in human class. Yeah. 01:28:16.40 Dennis But very much so um to that you know is it was performative. Um, which you know put me into a process a journey that you know started in college I think it I don't think it has an endpoint of of just kind of stripping away the the religious rules the side of rules and and rediscovering. Um, you know. Faith and and masculinity as well and that's that's just kind of been continual since um, man I you mentioned kind of finding a group and ah jolly you mentioned the idea of like hey be the weird one. 01:28:54.13 Dennis Um, and I think there's nothing more powerful than finding finding a group of people that you can say like we'll be the weird ones together like we're Yeah, we're the weird ones together. Yeah um, and so you know it doesn't have any any kind of curriculum or or. 01:29:01.12 Jala That's my Discord server where all the weirdos where all the weirdos there. Yeah. 01:29:13.20 Dennis Um, anything other than just the social aspect. But I've got a group of guys that I hang out with every week every Monday we get together and it's it's just hanging out together. But it's a range like there's people that are 20 years older than me and have adult children. Um, and then there's people that are you know younger than me and just had their first kid and um, it's it's like 5 guys that just that is so valuable to um, forming your sense of masculinity because they're they're on the the same journey I am um and and. Feeling like you're doing it together with guys. Um and and specifically with mentors guys that you know have been down the path a little bit further is incredibly valuable. 01:29:59.12 Jala Well and then two you also have someone who's younger than you also in the group and one of the best ways to learn something or to ah verbalize something is to teach that to someone else. So if you have someone else that you're helping them with something that actually helps you with the same thing. So You know it's a win-win situation there. Yeah Cool Cool. So um, your your moment of wake up call or what have you would be like when you hit college and you're like oh this isn't how the world works. 01:30:31.27 Dennis Yeah I've been in a very padded environment that's allowed me to to just not examine a bunch of stuff in my life. Um, which you know getting on the parenting side I think ah you know I. 01:30:46.74 Dennis I was probably in the last generation of people that could be feasibly sheltered it just it just doesn't seem like it's possible anymore. Um, and and so yeah, there's There's just a completely different approach that you need to take parenting someone that you don't try to stop them from being exposed to toxic masculinity. 01:31:06.16 Dennis Like you you know they're going to interact with toxic people. You know they're going to get fed ideas about what makes them a man or or you know what? how you should approach things that don't line up with what you've seen work. So yeah, it's a very different environment. 01:31:21.23 Jala Oh yeah. 01:31:21.75 Simón Yeah, yeah I think that's definitely ah so I I only have a daughter I don't have any sons. But um, you know that's also a concern right? that Ah, there's ah, a ton of really jacked up. You know patriarchal stuff that. 01:31:41.61 Simón Is going to subtly and not subtly end up, you know, affecting her? Um, but yeah I think like kind of providing the ability to think critically and and also to to trust their own. Conclusion that you know to be able to say you know what I think I I do have the ability to discern this you know I don't have to defer if someone else says it louder you know, um, just equipping them with those tools to go well hold on you know, does that actually hold up but because I don't live like that and I'm actually fine. 01:32:16.20 Simón Or my family doesn't think that and like they actually seem like they're pretty cool. Um, because yeah, like you said it's and I mean honestly, it's pretty freaky. Um, you know teaching University students and stuff like I just know like yeah if you're if you're online like they're absolutely. Ah. 01:32:35.46 Simón People out there looking to kind of draw in ah you know, disaffected young men that that have not figured out how to express themselves healthily you know or not kind of found a niche that they've carved out in society. Um, and yeah I think like it's It's the the whole ounce of prevention thing right of if the way people end up going down some dark tunnels is you know because they they didn't avoid them in the first place right? like they didn't have the sort of life where they. Those things wouldn't appeal in any way you know they're they're looking for something they're they're hoping to find that place that they belong to. 01:33:15.72 Jala Um, right? right? And again, they're looking for that Community. They're looking to belong and these days you know a lot of these young men. They aren't. Coming up to this this kind of situation where they find they're significant other that they're serious about and they want to be or like they're they're in college and then they're disoriented about what's going on and that kind of thing they're finding their own little groups online right? that they can still be the same way and you know double down and be more of the the. Stuff that they've they've been you know taught to be. You know the toxic traits are just magnified through this kind of community that they find themselves in. 01:34:01.46 Simón Well and and you both you both podcast about video games quite a bit and so I'm in the weird spot of I like video games. Um I probably haven't played a video game in like 4 years or something like you know, aside from like 20 minutes 1 time um, so I'm like I've I've been kind of like adjacent to video games but it was usually like my friend has that console and I'm gonna like watch him play for a while. So but I found that there were a lot of people that I'm like oh yeah, I really vibe with with you. So I'm gonna like hang out and and just like talk with you guys? Um, but anyway I think that. Ah. 01:34:36.64 Simón Certainly There's a lot of ah gamer Americans out there that ah like kind of take the thing where where you have ah I guess this is kind of all throughout like nerd and geek culture online culture of like oh well I was the weird kid or I got household because I was different. You know, like in some ways I didn't fit this masculine ideal and I was teased for it and rather than ah you know, maybe learn a lesson from that you know they're like well now I can be the bully you know. 01:35:11.52 Simón Or I can project. Ah, you know it's all all jocks are terrible and let's get revenge on them I's like I don't I don't think I for an eye was the lesson. You're supposed to take away from that. But okay, ah so yeah, like that's that's something too I think is like. 01:35:29.19 Simón Ah, all of this kind of goes back to like anger and insecurity and and wanting to feel validated right? is like people that they're like well I was wrong to time to go wrong people harder um and you know and unfortunately I think that does apply to a lot of um, you know. Kind of nerdy people people encounter culture stuff like at some point you got to ask yourself if you're um, if you're the jerk Now you know? yeah. 01:35:55.23 Jala Yeah, yeah, "Am I The Asshole" (AITA) thread on Reddit. You know so. 01:36:04.40 Dennis Ah, so one of the qualities of masculinity that I think about is being comfortable in the minority and taking that to the toxic extremes is either I need to conform and do anything to stay in the majority or I need to go so far and and do it some. Excuse me, do it. Simón is describing where I've I've created my own little mini majority that will snipe at everyone else from. 01:36:30.46 Jala Yeah, yeah, So we've already kind of talked about like what role models you've got for masculinity that would be basically your father's as as the main ones So That's cool, but um, what about your models for. Healthy femininity. Do you have one of those and like personhood generally. 01:36:53.99 Simón Medusa Big fan might end out freeze them. Ah now I'm sorry I'm being flippant. No, that's a good question I got to think on it. 01:37:07.73 Dennis Um, yeah, it's all I mean it's all none of it is content creators. It's all just people that have like mentored me or you know just been in my life for whatever reason. Um, you know a guy that mentored me Andy was. Hugely, impactful and his wife Tina was was just as much so um and like literally Jen my wife and I for a full year were like hanging out with them at least once a week um they're they're one of the one of the people that are you know, significantly older than us. But just. Watching the way they and ah interacted with each other you know him providing a good example of masculinity and and and her providing a good example of femininity and then watching the 2 interplay um was was really cool. So it's like it. 01:37:58.66 Jala Yeah, yeah, well and and I'm not really asking to be fair I'm not asking for like your heroes of of people that people would recognize you know I'm I'm kind of getting driving at like you know the people that we absorb our models from are most. 01:37:58.91 Dennis There's a lot of names that come to mind I don't know if it's and yet you'd recognize you know. 01:38:05.95 Dennis Oh sure. Sure. 01:38:17.85 Jala Often people who are around us so like you know my my initial models for femininity and masculinity were my parents. Um, there are good and bad things that I learned from them about these things and I would say it's pretty equal footing. Um, as to how many of of each 1 um, but then like I think of for example I had a middle school teacher named Mr Newsen who always referred to everyone in the his middle school reading class as like. You know, misss Prendez Miss whatever or Mr or whatever and called everybody with respect because they called him Mr. Nuisance so he would give them respect as well and but it wasn't like you know he was respectful but he definitely wasn't bullied by anybody in the class who wanted to act out or anything and he would know he would call him on it and he would be very calm and very. Whatever but he was super cool and like when I moved because I had a big like cross the country move from Florida over to Texas when I moved I like wrote to him for several years afterwards until I don't know what happened we just lost touch but like. You know I kept in touch with him for a very long time and he was kind of like because he was like ah a big strong dude and he was whatever but he was you know like very calm and like a lot of these things that we've talked about that both of you have said about your ideal of masculinity and that would be him. He was like that. So um, that would be a good example of like. 01:39:44.74 Jala Here's one of my ideals of a teacher that I had in in school in middle School. You know so like you never know where you're going to pull your inspirations from but like you're usually like looking up to even if you don't realize you're looking up to Them. You're looking up to somebody who's around you you know? and. Your company really does Influence. You know what kind of self you are creating. 01:40:11.50 Simón Yeah, you actually just made me think of um I don't like consciously think about this a lot but I do have a good friend. Um that I met through you know, ah music subculture stuff. Um, and then we've been playing tabletop games together for. Dozen years or something but um, you know he's someone that like I got to know him because he's the singer in a band and was like very intense and I was like whoa this like that's badass. That's like I want to do that like when I'm in a band I want to I want to make people feel like that. Um. And you know I turned out be like a nice dude a lot older than me took a while to get to know? Ah, but you know come to find out like oh yeah, he's trained for a long time a couple decades and like brazilian Jujitsu and Jet Kunddo and Kali and so. Savat and like yeah this this dude could kill me 500 ways. Ah you know I mean he literally like trains knife combat every like this. He's like ah a badass dude by you know, a lot of measures. Um, and he's just and this I've had this experience the people that ah you know. Are equipped for like physical violence if they've actually trained with discipline and stuff are usually very very just like laid back with nothing to prove because that like they know you know like like if I was unsafe I could make myself safe again. Um, and. 01:41:45.36 Simón You know he's someone. That's very like thoughtful and and is always trying to learn more and and make room for others and he's someone where you know as an adult when you meet someone like that. You're kind of like okay well like now you're my friend. Ah but he is someone that I do find myself at times being like yeah I got to take a node. 01:42:04.10 Simón You know take a page out ah out of his book like that's a good way to handle it. You know so that's I think that's ah, kind of the ideal as if you find yourself meeting people and making friends with people where you're like Wow if I could be a little more like you I'd I think I'd be a better person for it. 01:42:18.96 Jala Yeah, and you know that's that's one of the things that I part of the reason why I'm always so gushy about my friends is because you know I love all of you all and like I I always look up to all of you. In some way shape or form I look up to all of you. Both of you on this call and all the other people who are listening. You know I'm sure I I'm sure I know you you know I'm sure we've talked and yeah, yeah, I Definitely um, take a page from a lot of different people. So and you know to me that's like the best way to to be. To always constantly be growing. But anyway so um, moving over to like how do you deal with stuff So like we talked about like your your pathway How you've got to your current Concept. You know how you internally think about it and all of that but turning it outwards a little bit. 01:43:13.42 Jala So How do you deal with toxic masculine folks of whatever gender persuasion and that could be woman that could be nonbinary or other her whatever that can be a man you know how would you deal with those and then also on top of that does. The way that you handle that situation change depending upon the gender identity of the person you're dealing with. 01:43:46.87 Simón I can speak a little bit about how how how I deal more with with ah toxic men because I've you know? Yeah yeah. 01:43:54.13 Jala Yeah, you can start somewhere and you'll eventually find yourself at a conclusion. 01:44:00.17 Simón So you know I mentioned like being in in subculture and and all that kind of stuff and um, you know I also like when I was in like junior high I decided that just like try all the sports so I did like football and wrestling 1 year and then all of a sudden all these you know kids that were were never friends with me now like. I was their bro because you know I was in those practices too. And oh you work hard and all that stuff and then the next year I decided I wanted to do like cross country and track. Um and then I was you know various homophobic slurs. Ah, and so I had those kind of things where you're just like okay like. 01:44:38.65 Simón I get it. Ah you're you're trying to enforce the law or like ah you know being in punk stuff I was like riding my bike all over the the college area and like yeah I had my gene shorts are like cut off you know good chunk above the knee because that was the style and you know was like. Just remember this incredibly like ironic moment of literally like I'm leaving my girlfriend's apartment. You know the human woman that I am romantically involved with as a Cis man and then she lived behind like the like frat row. You know so like riding. Riding a bike and having like kind of short shorts and then again being called all kinds of slurs by like frat dudes on a balcony ah and just thinking about like how absurd it was that it's literally like okay I just finished like making out with a woman and I go out the front door and they're like you like man and I'm like oh okay. 01:45:36.10 Simón You're in a house full of them like commenting on what other guys are doing So maybe think about that for a minute. Um, so yeah at that age my answer was hop off my bike and be like come down here and I'll whoop your ass and then they wouldn't and that was effective to some extent because you know. 01:45:55.92 Simón Definitely There are a lot of people that are just counting on no one ever. Ah, you know? yeah, not ever pushing back and they kind of just oh I didn't mean it like that bro. We're just good. Um, so like as a young man that kind of made sense. Um, now I don't know it's it's. 01:45:58.90 Jala Challenging them. 01:46:15.63 Simón It's a little hard because like I think when it comes to just being kind of unpleasant and like a conversation. Ah, it's not so hard to navigate honestly I I feel like ah this doesn't come up in like my everyday life. But it's it's like it's a pretty scary time you know like if you're on the highway or something. There's like that dude in the lifted truck with like really crazy stickers on it. Um, you know you see people like acting like very dangerously like there's some of that. That's that's very freaky but um. 01:46:49.70 Simón And kind of like my everyday life I guess it's just like not like I think there are a lot of people that are playing a game that involves other people engaging with it. You know and if you can kind of like reject the premise of like like. 01:47:07.00 Simón Yeah we're going to like slug it out or like you know you've been wronged and I'm gloating over how I wrong you like no I didn't you know like I don't get you want to go first. Okay I'll wait to extra 30 seconds online at Cbs like it's really not that deep. You know I'm like ah it's fine. Um, and I think that kind of takes the wind out of people's sales when they're like well I'm fixing for a fight and you're like no thanks by. They're like well but hold on I was going to define myself in opposition to you and now you're like. 01:47:34.70 Dennis Good luck with that dude. 01:47:43.24 Simón No, you're probably right I don't care whatever um, and like yeah then they're just left with themselves again. Ah so yeah I I don't know I think sidestepping works to a certain extent and beyond that it's sort of like ah I definitely have the feelings sometimes of like. 01:48:02.64 Simón You know, like playing playing the the masculinity game a little bit of like I'm going to handle this as like a man you know because they're Goingnna. That's what they're going to respond to um you know, which in my case, sometimes it's just standing to my full height and like getting my low voice and just being like cool it man and they're like. But ah, you know, ah like sometimes it's just like people really do respond to that just being like very calm and steady. You know that if they're inside. They're a rabbit you know with their heart beating out of their chest and they just want to act when someone is. Just like you know let's like what are you actually saying what do you actually want to do um. 01:48:47.30 Dennis We're all we are all little toddlers who have fallen down are looking at someone else to see whether we should cry or not. 01:48:51.11 Simón Yeah, exactly and so you know people that are trying to stir something up and you're just like oh okay like I hope that gets better for you. They're like I don't know what that is. 01:49:01.73 Jala Yeah, well and then yeah, yeah, a lot of times I find myself with the whole like self question of am I emotionally invested in this if I'm not I don't need to worry about whatever is going. With that over there like we're not even going to engage with that because I don't have any emotional investment in whether or not you know Ah this particular guy flipped me off on the road because I was going the speed limit and this is Texas so everyone was going 20 over or whatever look at in a in a. 01:49:32.88 Simón Yeah, like I work around a lot of like artists and stuff and so I kind of have the weird thing of like there's not a lot of toxic masculinity. There's just people that are really obnoxious for other reasons. So I I get to be mad at people for entirely unrelated reasons which is I guess. 01:49:51.94 Simón A luxury. 01:49:54.44 Jala All right? Well, that's that's good that is good. It's good that you don't have to deal with that on the on the regular. So Dennis um I'm kind of expecting that you probably don't have to deal with it too much either. 01:50:04.18 Dennis No people people tend to be cool I think the answer to this question of of how do you handle toxic masculinity for me depends so much on how much you value the relationship like with a rando on the street. It is a completely different story than yo. Yeah. We did we did crossfit for a while um as a family and I'm thinking also in the context of like when your kids are there if someone's talking you know presenting that way to to your kids. What do you do Um, but it was people that we cared about and we knew we're going to see you know every day for a long time and that requires a different approach. Um. 1 thing that that came to mind was you know we talked earlier about not feeling like you have to immediately fill the air. Um, and and not feeling like you need to immediately power up on whoever is being toxic and try to out toxic masculinity them I guess like that only escalates. Um and and. 01:51:02.71 Dennis A memory I have from my dad was you know we were out. He's a waterfowull hunter so we're out shootingke like a you know Target shooting. There's a lodge where all the guys hang out and there was some guy who decided he wanted to talk to me for some reason and just started spouting all this racist ignorant leering. You know idiocy at me and I just coming from a place of legitly not knowing what to do about it I think I just said something like oh I I don't know anything about that or whatever. Um, but my dad didn't swoop in on him and chase him off or something like I was you know I was. Some dove but he did pat me on the shoulder. A little bit later. You know as we were leaving. He's like hey you handled that really well that was the right response to that and then we you know, unpacked then and that's always stuck with me and so you know in in a situation where it's possible allow for that. That's what I try to do with my kids is is you know. I don't need to show them shouting down someone who's out of line I need to give them a safe space to process it and and react to it etc afterwards. Um now if it's someone you know there's with my brothers who I'm in a lifelong relationship with. We've got all the same trauma. So we know each other extremely well um, you know there's there's conversation. We're through fuck you at each other and that's you know a course of it and you know so it's definitely not like the it's not a way I would fight with them in front of anyone else. It's not something a model to my kids. 01:52:34.54 Dennis Um, but you know there are there are times where that proportionate response is is appropriate given the relationship but I think that's an incredibly small percentage of them. 01:52:41.53 Jala So this is this is a non sequitur but I just I'm I'm curious so Dennis you are the one who will get into the weird stitch voice when you get really mad right? isn't that it does that happen when you when you have shouting matches with your brothers. 01:52:56.19 Dennis Um, that is oh that's hilarious. Yeah I think my brothers and and Moxie are probably the only people who have actually heard that. But yeah when I when I have fully lost it. My voice starts going back in my throat to where I sound like stitch. So. 01:53:10.50 Simón I just sound like Gilbert Gotfrey it so 01:53:13.28 Dennis You ever if you ever? Yeah, ah yeah, but you know that relational aspect of it and thinking of it about it from that angle. Um changes how you engage with it. 01:53:15.26 Jala Yeah, that's great. 01:53:26.15 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure and I think that that's really like a very important point for dealing with any people who are toxic for any reason because toxic people just want you to react. So if you don't give them any hammo. Their little fire spurts and goes out or. 01:53:44.76 Jala Travels away to somewhere else where they can get some fuel right. 01:53:48.19 Simón Yeah I know we've been focused kind of on on like you know, an in-person interactions. Um, but I think that also I mean that is an incredible amount of the activity on the internet and on social media is just. 01:54:04.48 Simón Yeah, like you said like swooping in being like well actually you're wrong and here's all the ways you're wrong and you know as obvious as trolls are there are people that also are like I fully know I'm engaging with someone who's arguing in bad faith and I just want to say I'm good. You're bad you know RahRahRah 01:54:22.59 Simón Let me check how many likes I got um and it's like you know people being like you're a monster because I gave you all the power for some reason. Ah I could just I could literally just not engage with this at all. Um you know and I doesn't mean that that. 01:54:41.86 Simón Crappy person disappears all of a sudden. But yeah it it really is like there is ah a place for for thoughtful response with people that will actually possibly benefit from it. Um. 01:54:58.22 Simón But I think like choosing your battles is a huge is yeah I guess that like kind of going back to like our our original definitions of of masculinity is is I think for me that kind of that discernment of like what like where are you going to put your your energy like yeah, is it going to be in like. 01:55:16.88 Simón Defending your rep as like tough or cool or is it going to be. You know, making sure that like your closest loved ones like that you have their respect or is it. You know if it is something like ah argument or conflict like. Like ah at what level are you trying to engage with that. Are you going to save it for when it counts or is it. You know every every slight needs to be nipped in the Bud or. 01:55:46.38 Jala And I also wanted to say something I was thinking about is that when you were talking about online engagement especially social media because everybody has a trigger finger that they want to respond to everything like you know, quick reply tweet or whatever which is why Twitter is the way it is but um. Something that I was thinking about in this whole process in my head was like I know several people who they will know very well that the person is being toxic intentionally to get everybody to be mad or to get the engagement and then. They will still get mad at it and they will still respond to it because they just can't let it go and the reason why they can't let it go is because um, some of these folks don't have a lot of control in the other aspects of their life but this is something that they can go and snipe at somebody on the internet and and feel better because they've taken out this this. 01:56:34.95 Jala Displaced aggression right? onto the internet and that's a lot of what happens and the dumb thing about it is that they go and they engage with this person that they don't like and then the algorithm because they engage with it will put more of it in their feed. 01:56:51.45 Jala Maybe don't do that like it there there is less so much power and not engaging seriously on the internet especially um, just step back. It's not worth your time like there's so many other things that you could be doing That's after been that? yeah. 01:57:04.23 Simón It's like it's like Batman and the joker or something. It's like like they like need each other to exist you know, like like because they they've decided to like take up this role and it just doesn't have to be that way. But yeah I I don't know about you when I get that little weekly notification on my iphone of of. 01:57:21.91 Simón How much my screen time went up or down on a week. That's like a pretty good like rough mental health indicator you know of like that's like that was it was up 20% last week I was like yeah I was depressed. You're right, you know? Ah so yeah I think it. 01:57:40.58 Simón It's It's a place that you can You can feel like you're doing something but that doesn't mean you are. 01:57:46.20 Jala What's fun for me is that all of my engagement on social media is like there's like 5 people who talk to me on social media ever and then like I talk to people. In this discord server and stuff and then I look at cute animals and sometimes they send funny videos to people and that's that's what I do with my time on the internet is just and that's that some of that is is ah you know needs to be curbed to because if you spend so much time doing that then like you don't have time for other things that you can be present with in the moment rather than just escaping. So um, but all of that kind of circles back to toxic masculinity in that um toxic masculinity and like general people doing the trigger finger thing on social media and of course doing like the total checkout of of. You know from everything to just scroll through cute animals or funny videos. All of that is you know, ah coping mechanisms for dealing with like a control lack of control or exhaustion or whatever else is going on in your life and it's like if you notice these things happening. It's really important that you see that. You see that trim. But then you kind of back into it and go where did that come from like you mentioned Simón. Oh I was depressed last week okay well you know like maybe need to figure out like what you can do about that so you can improve and get better from there. 01:59:06.89 Dennis I Think another way it might tie back is I feel like there's a bit of a loneliness epidemic going on. 01:59:14.59 Jala Yes, that's it all the crisis of loneliness are 2 of my upcoming episodes for this year as a matter of fact, so yes, yes, um. 01:59:21.10 Dennis There you go relevant as always. Yeah, you got your finger on the pulse. Um, but you know some of the statistics are especially scary for men. You know, rate of suicide and and and mental health issues and all this stuff. Um. 01:59:28.54 Jala Yes. 01:59:36.58 Dennis Connected back I think to the the toxic idea that you need to be an island and you need to be the Lone wolf and you need to do it all yourself and you got a bottle and not share your feelings and all that and I wonder if some of that social media interaction. Well I mean I can speak from experience I've I've fed the trolls I've gotten shouting matches online that I. Had no business being in and reflecting on it I was like you know that was just a topic that I didn't have anyone else I could talk with and like I've been I've been workshopping it in my own head. What do I think about this or you know what's the right opinion on this and and here I've found someone you know disagreeing me with me on it and I engaged just because it was a. Place to work out what was going on in my own head you know instead of doing it with a friend that cares with me or a mentor that maybe has some new perspective. Um, you go and get it online as ah as a cheap replacement. 02:00:23.92 Jala Yeah, yeah, and that's a lot of what happens these days especially between like pandemic you know making everybody more socially isolated and you know everybody a lot of people doing work from home and things like that. You've got the situation where there's people with less and less opportunity to meet people face-to-face and like granted I'm the type of person that I'll just start a conversation with whoever it doesn't matter I will talk to them about whatever it's Fine. You know and I will go find groups and I will go find things to do but like not everybody has the means. Or like the the um you know, ah the particular like strategy in their brain about like how do I go about meeting people in in person when I live alone in my apartment and I work from home and. I Don't know anybody in the area that I live in like that's a difficult thing and yeah, you can say oh well, you should just volunteer or you should do whatever. And yeah, that that takes a lot of work and if you're depressed You don't have the energy to put into the work that needs to go into meeting the people that will help Curb the depression. It's this whole kind of ah self perpetuating cycle but we will dig into that more on the loneliness episodes which will be coming up sometime this year. So. 02:01:43.35 Simón Yeah I think kind of ah, tying back to to some of the toxic masculinity parts of that too is then you also have ah this aspect of like never wanting to really try too hard or like. Care too much. You know what? I mean like like it's like a joke that it's like probably been a lot of Hackney Standup bits about like guys being like love you man like love you bro? Ah, but it's like it's not just an affectation. It's like because if I just said like hey like. 02:02:19.36 Simón Really care about you like I love you? Ah, that is like it's either vulnerable if someone feels uncomfortable about saying it or it's like scary to someone who doesn't know how to receive that. 02:02:36.85 Simón And so like it's It's like oh whoa are we like? Oh oh you like actually value me as a human being like oh shit we're talking about emotions. Um. 02:02:45.94 Dennis I So going going back to my vacation story that has become just kind of ah something I try to practice is you know, saying that to those that I do love and and yeah I wholeheartedly agree. 02:02:58.70 Simón Right? So if it's like hey what's up bro. It's like oh I'm actually like hurting really bad and like I like I haven't like I don't know what to do about it. Ah you know it's it's hard because like people always post this stuff about like hey like check in on your friends and. All this stuff but like it's hard when people feel like they can't really be honest and and I know for me like I've always valued friendships where people didn't want to just kind of like dance around the surface level stuff you know or if it was like dude I'm real low. It's like all right like. Let's go to that one coffee shop where like they don't kick you out if you just hang out there for like 4 hours with 1 drink you know and like you know or like let's go see a show or like whatever come listen to records at my place but like you know there, there's a space for that and I that's how I I forged some. 02:03:52.79 Simón Strong bonds with people right? Um, and I think that that requires being in and kind of a social setting or a social circle where that is even a possibility which I think for me being in kind of like artsy intellectual spaces. There's a little more value. 02:04:10.62 Simón And that where maybe men weren't as rigidly confined but like when I've known people that are I don't want to say like bro like derogatorily but you know just like kind of your average guy. That's like yeah I like made a friend at the gym and now we go to the bar on the weekend and you know. Play on a softball team and like ah I'm just kind of a regular guy those sort of guys like I don't think they have the opportunity to be like hey I feel like I kind of never got over my breakup and like ah I just feel like super alone when I go to sleep at night. They're like. 02:04:44.12 Simón Ah, okay, well, um, yeah, so like the Bengals game starts at 3 if you want to come over that you know like ah yeah. 02:04:46.36 Jala Yeah, yeah, right, right? Well and and a lot of that too is is because again like they don't do that work. 02:04:56.88 Jala Within themselves and they they can't even identify within themselves the things that they are feeling because they've never been given the vocabulary or like the means by which to examine this. They don't have any practice doing it. This is all new and they're just like you know? yeah. 02:05:12.87 Simón They're scared of being emotionally pantsed. They're like just like oh look, he's got feelings. It's like no I don't shut up. Yeah. 02:05:20.48 Dennis Well and there's there's no script for it. I think I think so many guys especially in our generation weren't provide any script for how do I indicate I want a more meaningful friendship or how do I express the feelings that I'm genuinely having to those around me. Um. And I think I think about that a lot with my kids. My three boys like um Jen and I talk about let's give them vocabulary for all these things. Um, and so you know I try to be very intentional about I express affection to them I talk about when I'm feeling low to them. 02:05:55.64 Dennis But I also make sure they see me with my friends doing that sort of thing they see me with mentors taking advice and being humble and and not being the loudest voice in the room or whatever. Um, and and the hope behind all of that is you know, give them a script that I didn't really have. 02:06:13.41 Jala Yeah, absolutely and that kind of segues into the next question which is about like ah how how your um perspective on Masculinity has changed since becoming a father. So. 02:06:26.24 Jala I don't know if you want to continue on with that Dennis and and talk about has anything cha. How much has changed since becoming a father on your perspective on masculinity I'm sure a lot of it has to do with like you know your your onus the onus of having to teach your your boys. 02:06:42.18 Dennis Sure yeah I mean yeah, there's there's so much when you know I became a father and and particularly when you got a newborn at home. Um, you know that is yeah I remember. Ah, holding Luke who's my oldest as our first kid and and you know just feeling so much love and and literally having this overwhelming emotion of like I would do anything to make this kid feel better. He's crying and I would do literally anything. To to help him right now and to make him feel safe and the only thing that he wanted in that moment was to be handed back to mom so he could eat you know and there's there's no amount of powering up on that or there's no amount of efforting on that or or whatever. Um. 02:07:33.76 Dennis That that can change that situation and so I think it it does just bring out a softness um and and a humility especially with a newborn in the house that that you've just never it potentially never had to had to interact with before. 02:07:48.81 Jala Yeah, and there is definitely like there's an arc like I feel like most kids go through an arc where sometimes they're they're more ah attached to their mom and then other times they're more attached to their dad like I've definitely had. Phases of my life where I was attached to 1 or the other and it changed over time you know like it it passed between the 2 of them back and forth. You know over the years and all of that. Um, so I mean like but it always feels crappy right when when you're like I love you so much and then they're just like. By I got you know like if if you're if your boys happen to be in you know around teenhood or something when they start getting real saucy. Hopefully they won't be too saucy but ah yeah, yeah, so so when they start getting spicy and um, you know if they're like I don't care dad. 02:08:31.61 Dennis Oh we're speed running that. 02:08:41.89 Jala Yeah to go talk to Mom you know, whatever and they think their mom is cooler than you I mean that sucks. Yeah yeah. 02:08:46.23 Dennis They they try to play us against each other all the time and thank God they're not very good at it yet and that's what I've I've heard girls are are even more intense on that front. 02:08:57.19 Simón Oh My God I am definitely I told my wife the other day you know after an event in a like man when she hits her teenage years like we're so screwed and she's like she's like you like I. I Literally don't have the words to express how bad it's gonna be like yeah she's a powerful kid. Yeah, but um, ah, you're talking about. You know how things shifted. Um I think for me and this is something that I think all. 02:09:17.35 Dennis Psychological warfare. 02:09:32.32 Simón All parents probably go through but just I I feel like the first few months especially are just it's just very intense and you get to this point where it's just like the total like the total sublimation of your. I don't want to say your own needs but like you have been at the center of your own life like you've been the main character your entire life. Even if you're community minded or you have people you care about and to really step into the moment of like being that parent. You know like you have your sense of time has collapsed. You know you don't know when you showered you are just simply reacting to like this is my child they need to be cared for I will do that I will do that you know infinitely they're going to wake up. 60 times tonight and scream at me I'm going to keep you know I'm just going to keep doing what needs doing and I think like through doing that it kind of like tempers you into just making room for. Someone else to like really be at the center of things you know to kind of ah take your I don't know if ego is the right word but just it it really shifted shifted my perspective I think and made me more aware of kind of the extent to like. 02:11:05.74 Simón You know what does it mean to really? um, kind of like you know to to serve and to um, give of myself and not worry about kind of holding onto enough for me now to be clear. Ah I have not continued to live I lived then. Because I would ah ah you know be ah dead somewhere I don't know. Ah you know like it's not sustainable at some point ah sleeping and and taking care of yourself is good. But I I did feel kind of like a deep. Ah. 02:11:45.29 Simón Resonance from that of like that is sort of persisted of like of kind of signaling like okay like this is my life now like I'm still going to be a person I'm still going to be a whole person with my own needs and wants. But like the tectonic plates of my life have shifted. 02:11:52.34 Dennis Yeah. 02:12:04.54 Simón You know to where? um yeah, like it's ah ah, not any like Macho kind of like provider thing like I'm going to bring home the bacon but um, that sense of like I want to ah just like nurture. 02:12:22.80 Simón And and take care of like my child and this little place we're living in and the other stuff you know like things like your job or your career right? like I don't know if you had this dentist but um, you know I'd be stressed out about like work stuff or whatever. And didn't totally go away after I had a kid because I knew things still Mattered. You know things still had to get done but boy did I not care on any like serious emotional level. It was like like I have ah like I have a whole child at home like there is a human life developing before my eyes. 02:12:49.92 Jala Yeah. 02:12:50.80 Dennis Oh yeah. 02:12:59.79 Simón Like I like if you think I you know I'm lazy or on mode of it like I I Just literally don't care like. 02:13:07.90 Dennis Yeah, part of that is so I'm so exhausted that I couldn't if I wanted to and the other part of that is yeah it just it changes your perspective. Yeah I experience that as well. We're just yeah, it realigns your universe. Um. 02:13:10.50 Simón Right. 02:13:20.57 Jala And I just wanted to insert real quick. All of that sounds so much like when I became a caretaker for my parents because that's that's it's not the same situation but it is a situation wherein. You are setting aside a lot of your own. 02:13:39.30 Jala You know requirements or or lifestyle stuff in order to take care of another person. So sorry proceed. 02:13:45.75 Dennis No it I see the Parallels I had a thought I'd I'd be curious What you think about it Simón of it feels like there was a narrative from the previous generation of parents trying to live through their kids and like suddenly. 02:13:59.20 Jala Yeah, there was for sure. 02:14:03.48 Dennis My worth as a man depends on how well my kid hits a baseball or or what have you and you know I I know people who grew up under that pressure and and and saw its Ill effects sure. Yeah well and and so you know this might not even be a specifically masculine thing. 02:14:09.77 Jala I Grew up under that pressure. 02:14:16.51 Simón Really miss Ultra Marathon Tae Boo Seal team whatever 02:14:18.68 Jala From my dad. Yeah yeah from my dad can you couldnt you couldn't can you ah can you sort that out that that was from my dad that I I got all that. Yeah yeah, yeah. 02:14:31.72 Simón Sit right down on the couch Miss Prendes 02:14:31.74 Dennis Yeah, So so yeah, so my my kid in general I see ah I see very much that at least so far in my experience. Our generation is not parenting that way and it's almost like I need to make sure my kid you know. Self-actualizes or is is is happy which is which is much much more a step in the right direction but I don't know if it's just my circles. 02:14:50.76 Simón Ever you? Yeah I mean I ever myself and everyone I know is trying not to screw up their kids in the same way that they feel screwed up you know and and I I often. 02:15:09.55 Simón Joke with my wife that I'm like don't like she's like oh like I feel like this aspect of me is like starting to pop out and you know I hope I'm not passing that on on my behavior. Whatever I'm like don't worry, we're we're blended together. We're gonna mess her up in a whole new way. We haven't thought of yet. 02:15:24.97 Jala There's there's a tommy siegel candy hearts comic that is basically like that exact thing where it's like there's 2 big candy hearts with a baby candy heart and it's like you know, messed up messed up in a different way messed up in a totally different way. You know the little baby. So. 02:15:40.59 Dennis Ah, yeah, so that's um, that's another way that that you know parenting a kid changes your view on Masculinity you become. Ah I don't know about stress but like there's there's a lot of pressure to you know. Give your kid something that you feel like you didn't get. 02:16:02.51 Simón Yeah, and I I don't know about you Dennis but I've um, it's made me really acutely aware sometimes of the things I am working on you know of like if of you know if I ah am. 02:16:18.59 Simón Finding myself quick to Anger or snap or ah, you know whatever the aspect is if the if it in any way comes in contact with my child either. You know, kind of textually or is like. Just sort of in the general air of of our daily life like it really hits harder because I can live with myself I don't always like it. But you know I can I can deal with that. Um, and even having an adult partner. You know I Want to be. 02:16:53.25 Simón Kind and fair to her but she's an adult and she can deal with that and process it as an adult with her own experiences but with the kid. It's just really, it's like scary man you know because I'm like okay ah I really want to figure this stuff out and I want to figure it out sooner rather than later. 02:17:12.16 Simón Because it would be really nice if there's a vague memory of when I was little I felt like you were more like this instead of like yeah so I kind of thought I just like solved this whole being a person thing and now you're 18 you know and that's it's like well's just how my dad is you know. 02:17:26.30 Dennis Yeah, oh my gosh. 02:17:28.68 Simón Because I I definitely had that feeling of of getting in my late 20 s and being like oh the cement's kind of drying huh like I kind of thought like some of these things I was just going to grow out of and like I just you know I just wouldn't have flaws anymore and you're like oh shit. Okay, let's start rolling this stone uphill baby like we're. 02:17:47.21 Jala So something that I wanted to posit or ask about is so when it comes to you as a person when you're an individual even if you're in a relationship with someone else. 02:17:48.40 Simón We're going to figure it out. 02:18:00.90 Jala You have you don't have control over that other person but you have control over yourself and your your reactions to everything So when it comes to your kid. This is you know like the the feeling that people get when they have kids and they love them so much they would do anything for them and this that and the other you love this person. So much. But like there's somebody who's outside of your control. You can try to guide them. You can try to mentor them. You can you know, give them good examples and try to do your best but that kid's going to grow up and be whatever they're going to be whatever that might be and um, that's like not. Part of the toxic masculine mold right? So like thinking about it in perspective of my life like as I mentioned before like some of this stuff was modeled to me. This is the way that I was raised like my dad um he was there sometimes mostly he was dad in the form of being a provider and he would like to. Play with us. But then everything else was up to my mom to take care of and so ah, he was not like the the kind of active father in the way that both of you are with your kids you know, um to the extent. You know that that I had that kind of influence in my life. So Um I Wonder how much he might have changed if like he had been that kind of active parent. You know, rather than just the play person and then the guy off working somewhere you know, um so like thinking about it in that framework and with that kind of a setup. 02:19:37.28 Jala Um, I'm kind of curious about how much changed you know for you guys when it came to that like that concept of control and what you do and do not have control over I mean being in the relationship that got the kid in the first place obviously is is a step in that direction. But it's like ratcheted up isn't it when you have a kid. Or multiple. 02:19:57.75 Dennis Sure Um I Jennna and I talk about it explicitly you know this fear of like oz is my worst self going to get to my kids in some way or did they just see that and it's like just just time and probability like the amount I'm with my kids. Probability dictates that they are absolutely going to see the worst in me and you know same thing with my spouse. It's like I I Love Jen more than anything else in the world and I am going to wound her worse than any other person. She's in a relationship with just time and proximity. It's going to happen and and so. 02:20:31.54 Dennis For us. The thing that's so important to model is that working through it that Simón was talking about that like I I can't stop myself from hurting you just just again time and probability right? like I'm gonna do things that hurt my kids. 02:20:48.90 Dennis I Can't stop myself from hurting you but I can model what it's like to say sorry and I can model you know I'll go to Therapy I can model talking it out I can model um saying I'm overwhelmed I need a break. Um. 02:21:06.75 Dennis It's it's crazy to think now for me but up until just a few years ago the idea that I could leave a conflict if I was feeling overwhelmed had never occurred to me I never left a fight I kept on talking until it was all talked out and that usually ended in me. You know, saying mean things because I was oversimulated overwhelmed and didn't know what else to say and so learning to to just articulate that of like I'm overwhelmed I've flipped my lib. My frontal lobe isn't working now I got to go like that that was new for me. 02:21:42.28 Dennis Just in the last few years and um, you know my kids yeah have watched me model that on several occasions. Um, and so yeah, it is modeling the process of trying failing and then you know. 02:22:00.21 Dennis Getting back up from the failure that I hope will have more impact on them than any of the harm from the failures. 02:22:08.88 Simón Yeah I I try to remind myself that you know we'll never attain perfection right? and we've we've got to try to improve. But um, even as flawed as we might be. 02:22:26.56 Simón Even them your kids as an adult will have the awareness at some point that they had a parent who who tried and wanted to do better and could say sorry and from everything I've seen. 02:22:45.94 Simón People I know and you know following. Ah, you know mental Health professionals and stuff online everything else like that counts for so much of people can be like yeah you know my dad does this my mom does this like you know the. 02:23:04.43 Simón They've got this thing that like I don't think they're going to like fundamentally change but when someone can just say hey you know I'm sorry that was that wasn't fair I'm working on how to not do that. But like you know that wasn't you that was me my bad. Um, the depth that at which that can like touch a kid I think is really ah, kind of incredible. So Yeah I Actively want to do better. To you know, make things as good as they can be but I think um, that's like this goes back to the very beginning when we were talking about how much is is that certainty and that like and security of of being perceived as as weak or or having ever made a mistake. Ah yeah. You know, like just saying that that wasn't right? You know I'm going to try to do better I can't promise I'm going to get there but I am going to Try. Um I think ultimately that gets a lot of respect. 02:24:16.66 Dennis Stir that cement baby. Don't let it try but. 02:24:17.56 Simón Yeah, yeah. 02:24:17.60 Jala Ah, yeah, well I will say too as some a caretaker of parents. You know, ah my parents since I've become you know like living caretaker person and been here. Um their relationship with me has changed a lot too because um. When I left the house and moved out on my own the concept that each each of us had of each other cemented and and solidified to whatever the last thing was when we were all together and so like when I was out on my own and I moved away and I was off for years and years. 02:24:54.17 Jala And then I came back and then we were all living together again every one of us was treating each other the way that we thought that each other was but that was like several years old you know like years and years old from back when I was in the house when I was in college. So um, you know. It was. It was really kind of magical kind of reacquainting myself with my parents and my parents relearning me too as an adult and having you know all of us kind of like update our our concept of self and update ourself. You know our concepts of each other and you know. Um, even though I've had lots of rough times with both of my parents throughout the years um in their older age and with me being at home and being an adult. We've had lots of conversations in which like. You know, ah my dad has actually apologized for stuff which never would have happened in you know, most of my life and things like that and talk through it and all of that. So like that that parenting model of of what you're doing and trying to um, you know, give your example and trying to make those connections with your kids continues on. 02:26:05.24 Jala Forever. You will be doing that forever. So when you are very old. You will hopefully be able to reconnect with your adult children. Um, you know as well in in that kind of a way and you know or actually even better one up on me not have the little ah break in there where you you kind of. Have like a um ah Rut of ah, an old pattern in your head about what the interactions should be like you know what? I Mean. So. 02:26:32.10 Simón Yeah, and Dennis I I don't know if you got this but I ah I definitely felt very humbled in some ways as a parent as far as understanding my own parents because I think of all the times that I fell short. 02:26:49.88 Simón As a parent and you know couldn't find that extra patience in that moment to you know to be really kind about that thing or you know whatever flaw jumps out or I find a pattern of you know I'm always rushing along when we have to do this or whatever and you start to realize that like. You know? Yeah when you're a kid or a teenager even in your early 20 s you can see people's actions and ascribe a lot of like intent to them. You know, um and I think it's humbling to then like be a parent and be like this is. 02:27:27.44 Simón Some things that are just going to be like an accumulation of just like me having human moments where like you said with proximity like if you know if like pretty much every stressful moment of both of our lives is us being together and like having to. Get somewhere on time or whatever it is or do something mandatory like yeah like there's there are going to be moments where it's just like you're miserable I'm Miserable. We're both going to be miserable at each other sorry um, it's you know and and also like. 02:28:02.48 Simón Yeah I've I've had ah disagreements with my parents about stuff where our you know our relationship was kind of influx you know of of like well I'm in ah I'm a whole adult and it's not the same as the kid and we got to find a way for this to to exist. Um, yeah I I think it it has definitely ah, kind of I guess made me a little more generous with my with my parents or at least with like my understanding of them as parents you know that? um. 02:28:38.48 Simón In the end you know there. They're people that are trying and I think it just sinks in more when you're the when you are that person who is trying and and for me personally it's felt like as there's been actual change and some apologies and stuff but it also is just I feel like I've let go of some things too. 02:28:58.46 Simón With that understanding you know of just like I don't you know you love me and I understand there are ways that you need to improve but like if fundamentally you're a person who's trying then there's a lot that can be um, can just fade away. 02:29:16.87 Dennis Yeah, it's it's that transition from coach to mentor right? and a mentor even I guess you could say friend like that you you come to know your parents as an equal you come to see him as a human. It's like okay. 02:29:17.81 Simón You know you don't have to hold on to it all. 02:29:35.54 Dennis I get where you were coming from on some of this stuff. Um, and I've I've had a lot of fun conversations where it's almost like my parents have circled back and be like okay well now that you're an adult and we're kind of on equal footing Now we can here's what was really going on in that moment or like. Here's you know here's here's the part I didn't tell you about my childhood or or whatever. Um, that have only made it easier to be like okay you're you're human like I understand better now. Um, and that's man I You know my parents weren't perfect but I feel very grateful that I was in a situation where I've. 02:30:12.93 Dennis Got you know, 2 parents that showed up and tried and are still in my life and for all the crazy twists and turns that is that's not something that a lot of people get to experience as well. So I think I said it at the top but just the impact of having parents that showed up and tried means so much. Ah, for setting foundation for everything you do you know with your kids. 02:30:36.72 Jala Yeah, yeah, so skipping to a little bit of a different beat. Um, when it comes to the way that societal concepts of gender have been changing over the years and how like these days we talk more in terms of like a gender spectrum and that kind of a thing. Has that affected your sense of self in any way and has it affected how you perceive slash interact with the world at large when you are out in society. 02:31:09.44 Simón You know that's an interesting question I think for me, um I think already kind of being in like subculture kind of stuff um around a lot of like very like visibly and vocally Queer people. Ah, Trans people etc like I I think I I kind of got more comfortable with like a variety of expressions and you know knew I was around people where like I didn't need to try to be any kind of way but you know I'm That's one of those things of like yeah I I. 02:31:43.48 Simón Pretty comfortable and like you know a pretty masculine pocket. Um, and I think for me actually I've kind of there's some situations where you're like hey you know I'm but like a very large visible ah man. And I don't want to just like dominate this space or you know make anyone uncomfortable or what have you? but I think I've I've also found some ah like a way that I can kind of enact my masculine values or ideals is to like be. That person that is in that space or dealing with that person who may be you know normally like being around men is is not a comfortable situation. You know they have to worry about acceptance or safety or whatever um of being someone who's just able to like. 02:32:40.86 Simón You know, just be open or supportive or kind or affirming in some way. Ah that that I see that as an opportunity to like you know to to put that to to good work. You know of of like putting someone at ease like you know, not like I'm um, the. Um, the Alpha you know wolf that's like holding it down but you know more more of just like you know, yeah, creating a sense of like hey you're you're safe here with me like you know like you you do you? You don't gotta impress me but I see you and you know. 02:33:18.24 Simón Accept you and I I think that is something that kind of pops up in that like punk scene and stuff of you know you got like some you know, ah 120 pounds soaking wet. Ah you know, non-binary kid with the big mouth and they they feel safe. Ah because you know that. A like hulking giant friend that ah looks super macho is like also you know like gives him a big hug and is like hey it's good to see you and like if anyone ever tried to hurt you I'd be right there you know and like that's that's kind of ah a beautiful thing I I think that is an experience I had of like knowing some people where I'm like. 02:33:56.70 Simón Oh they're like a little so like they're scary like I would I would never ever ever want to be in a fight with them. Ah, you know and realizing they're the one who's like you know, making sure that was like oh yeah, like no like our our Trans friends like when we go out like. You're with us like you never have to worry about anything you know? Ah yeah, and like that's to me like that's a cool way to use it as like you know I'm I'm I am a man I'm a man that can like kind of. 02:34:16.70 Dennis Safe to be yourself. 02:34:34.60 Simón Use some of my natural features to my advantage to like you know exert myself or you know make myself known. Um, but I can use that to ah to help others and and to kind of live my ideals and. 02:34:47.60 Jala Yeah, well Dennis. 02:34:52.50 Dennis Yeah I think in terms of how you perceive and interact with others. It's just building the habit of making less assumptions when when you meet people and that's just a skill that you need to have in the modern age. Um, and and I think it's very healthy to have that be a habit. 02:35:09.73 Dennis It's It's funny. How I think so many people cling to the minor inconvenience of like well I might not know your programs off the bat or or whatever and and that bothers them because they have to give up just this tiny bit of convenience. Um, So yeah, definitely you know. Interact with people making less assumptions and and um I've always been a harmonizer like that's my my natural kind of status and so yeah I have a big heart for people to feel like they can be themselves and and all that as Well. Um I think self-concept has changed in terms of. 02:35:46.00 Dennis You think of gender as a spectrum. Um, but even even thinking of it as a spectrum where masculine and feminine are not on opposite sides and I've come to that coupleside like the opposite of being a man is not being a woman. They are not opposed to each other. There's definitely like ah a ying and yang to that. But um. 02:36:04.28 Dennis As I think about like you know if it was a slider that you know embracing feminine traits or becoming more feminine inherently means dialing down masculine aspects and for me, it almost is thinking of it as. I can I can dial up feminine elements that are positive um and not feel like I am sacrificing masculinity to do that that it's it's 2 parts of a whole human that you can embrace. Um, that's a useful way for me to conceptualize of it. So. 02:36:41.49 Dennis Um, it's really getting away you know thinking of Gender gender as a spectrum in a broad spectrum at that allows you to embrace those positive feminine qualities. Um and get away from the idea that that could somehow ever hurt your masculinity. 02:36:54.10 Jala Right? right. 02:36:58.37 Simón Yeah I know that there's been certainly a lot of um, we're talking about like kind of a gender binary. But also you know with sexuality. There's you know people are like well it's not like you know gay straight by you know, like pick a number. 02:37:13.61 Simón I Sometimes think of of like more of a like a spider chart or something or you know something like that or like you have these different attributes and it's It's like um, yeah, they aren't mutually exclusive. It's not well if you pull in this direction that means you can't go in this direction. Um. But I mean I I Do think it's it's ah it's a powerful thing to give people the the space to just like yeah, just not not feel like they need to jump in and and do the normative thing. Um, and I think that's just kind of freeing for a lot of people too. Like you know if you get that chance you're just like like why? Why do I Always say this thing like why do I always play out this script when this kind of conversation comes up like and it's because that's how other people did it and that's how I did it for a long time you go I I think I can just let that go like I think with these people I can just. 02:38:11.58 Simón Like actually be myself and I think we can often ah, not not really understand how much we do that until 1 of those moments pops up and you're like oh why was I carrying that around like that that wasn't me. That's just like some. 02:38:31.16 Simón Accumulation you know on on my mental windshield here you know and I I Really actually don't have to keep it. 02:38:45.31 Jala Dizzy Moon oh there okay you rose for a second there. Okay. 02:38:46.34 Dennis Yeah, we heard I don't actually have to keep and then didn't get the last part of that you said but I don't have to keep and then I lost the last part of the sentence. 02:38:48.38 Simón I Oh yeah I was I was peering into your soul and. 02:38:57.91 Jala Ah, yeah, you you said I don't have to keep and then you could. 02:39:01.95 Simón Oh yeah I think I was I was just saying that like yet you realize like you just somehow kind of acquired this. Ah you know these ideas or these scripts ah or expectations and and you can just realize oh actually like this wasn't really mine to begin with you know. 02:39:14.83 Jala Well yeah, it's it's kind of like the frog that's in the slowly heating up water and it doesn't notice that the temperature is raising you know until it gets boiled alive. You know that kind of a situation where it can get dangerous if you can't. 02:39:15.23 Dennis Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. 02:39:18.30 Simón So I don't need to keep it. You know. 02:39:34.89 Jala Ah, identified right. 02:39:39.38 Dennis Well I Also think this this veers into marriage versus or you know any long-term relationship versus parenting. Um, but you can't realize just how many assumptions you have about the world based on your family of origin until you are. That close to someone with a different family of origin and suddenly everything where the toothbrushes go what time you you know how how early you need to get to meetings all this stuff that you just assumed was the way the world was gets thrown into Flux Um, because you yeah. 02:40:11.27 Simón Boy howdy. Yeah I I love my wife to pieces and and I love her family and that's 1 reason you know I've made sense for us to be married is like you know I'm I'm very close with her family. Um, but it like. 02:40:13.35 Dennis See how someone just different. 02:40:28.74 Simón Every unwritten rule that was in my head of like well no, this is how you act and you have to do this or else. Everyone's going to think you're rude and they're always going to remember forever and you know they're like what if you just weren't neurotic about this like it's actually you know if I if I invite you. 02:40:47.79 Simón To do something or offer something. Um, you can actually say no and like I literally will never think about it again and I'm like I'm like this is a like this is a trap like I am like ah this is not permitted and it took like a long time to be like oh I can. 02:41:06.61 Simón Like I can actually just say what I'm actually thinking and feeling out loud at any time and it's fine and it definitely threw things into relief a little bit and and I was able to then take some of that back to my my own family dynamics and be like okay how can I like. Like what happens if I stop going along with this part of things if I'm just like no I don't think I'm going to do that like there's a little bit of friction but like you know people let it go Andre like oh well I kind of learned a new way to be so that's cool, cool. 02:41:40.66 Jala Yeah, and I will tell you like I'm sitting here like I didn't actually fist bump my thing because I didn't want you to panic like you did when I scratch my ankle but you know like I wanted to fist bump you and just be like yeah that that's me with Dave's family it's 02:41:59.71 Jala Like wow ah, they are just so chill versus what my family is doing yeah like well you're all just like cool with it great. So yeah, but yeah, um, and that has of course Dave's 02:42:07.38 Simón It's like ah you guys are just out here existing what's wrong with you? yeah. 02:42:18.92 Jala Ah, addition to the household has definitely changed our dynamics in many many ways and um it is great. My parents. Um both love him very much and they rely on him for. Everything they're the first question out of their mouth like all the time is like where's Dave where when is he coming home or whatever they just want to know where he is all the time and they worry about him all the time. so it's very cute so so yeah um we talked about a lot of these other questions that I had on here. 02:42:49.15 Jala Already We kind of covered those um in prior Parts. So just kind of like as as a little bit of a ah a wrap up on toxic masculinity in general like where you kind of have hinted at okay so toxic masculinity y'all both think that the toxic masculine situation is. Worsening right? Like we've kind of talked about like how everything is turning into a more and more into ah us versus them. Binary situation. Um, is it getting worse. Is it getting better. 02:43:20.31 Dennis My initial reaction is I think we're experiencing the the tension of change I think part of the reason it feels so divisive sometimes is because as a whole. 02:43:36.60 Dennis Society is tackling some of this and we are getting better tools to express and and and you know understand our masculinity and you know that that change never comes for free that there's always. Discomfort and tension and at a societal level some people just outright rejecting it? Um, so I would be in the better column and and take some of the the vitriol that we are seeing around masculinity right now your Andrew Tates and such as. 02:44:10.52 Dennis Symptoms of larger positive change that just ah, you know that you got to fight through it. It is the soreness after working out if you will. 02:44:21.86 Simón yeah yeah I can I can ah go along with that. Yeah I think that um you know we kind of got past like the nihilistic depths of um, yeah, all the like really scary kind of outright. Sort of stuff. Um of of the depths of that and we've kind of obviously those sort of elements are still around or you have your arotates or elon musks or whatever but we've kind of reached the point in society where like those people went from being like oh man every young guy aspires to be that and I'm gonna have. Lamborghini like all those guys on Youtube that are trying to sell me like you know, drop shipping courses or whatever. Um, like I feel like yeah, we're kind of ah more of a point where everyone's like those people are kind of losers right? like even if they are millionaires like that's kind of pathetic like you know and ah. 02:45:17.66 Simón And people are saying that out loud both men and women you know, um and there are still those growing pains but like yeah I mean I think you look at. Um, there's plenty of people that very happily fight the culture war every day you can check a Youtube comment section. 02:45:35.30 Simón Or your local local news articles or ah, you know Reddit ah to just see the cesspool but I really do think there are um, a lot of people that have just they've seen that stuff just play out so much now from both real life and thanks to the internet. And they're like okay yeah, like someone who got like really into being an edge lord four years ago like okay, it's been 4 years how are they now and it's like not anything you aspire to. 02:46:01.37 Dennis Yeah, when when was the last time you thought about Milo Youoppolis or one of those like personalities that the field has thinned. 02:46:09.17 Jala A hint. 02:46:11.22 Simón Yeah, it's like in. Ah yeah, totally and like I like I teach college students and like I don't know like my feeling is like if you're like homophobic like you don't get to come to the party. You know what? I mean like it's like you're not going to get along with a bunch of your classmates and like. 02:46:29.10 Simón You know? yeah hey we're all goingnna go get lunch here like you know what? I mean like it's not cool to be ah like a dick and I think they're kind of were times. Yeah I think there could yeah there there were times where like that there was more of a a niche to fill Even if. 02:46:38.54 Dennis Ah, thank god in the 90 s it very much was but. 02:46:47.51 Simón Mostly was with other men of of being like you know I'm just calling it like I see it and now you know even with like standup comedy and all that stuff right? where it's like oh well like you know like yeah now you can be on Instagram and you're like oh there's like. You know someone telling a joke that involves like yeah like gender nonconformity or or what have you or or race and you're like oh that's like actually funny and you aren't just being like the joke is those people are subhuman you know like you you get you get these people where it feels like society is moving in this direction of like. 02:47:21.51 Simón Oh no, we're like learning how to talk about these things and not just bash our head against the same wall over and over so it's it things are still ah gnarly out there in many many respects but I. 02:47:34.30 Dennis Yeah, it's a so all this perspective for someone who is very comfortably in the majority of almost everything So your mileage may vary. 02:47:41.28 Jala Um, well well so like a lot of what I'm curious about is how gen z grows changes and and you know adapts because a lot of the largest shouters when it comes to. Um, toxic masculine like big names out there are boomers and you know, um gen x and millennials I mean there's Millen. You know some of the millennials are too. Um, but like. 02:48:14.51 Jala You know I'm I'm hoping that gen z is like the generation where a lot of the you know, um, progress is is showing its fruits if you will so so yeah I think this is a good place to stop the episode because we're approaching the 3 hour mark now. 02:48:33.78 Jala Dennis all Dennis all ask it like sitting here going? Oh yeah, like we're not going to be able to talk about stuff. Please please that I I knew. 02:48:34.23 Dennis It's just fun to hang out. You know. 02:48:43.36 Dennis Now this that was set by a kid who was on the speech and debate team in high school So a little little bit of a bit. 02:48:48.30 Jala Yeah, right, right? right. 02:48:49.70 Simón Nice. Yeah I ah I'm I am relieved that ah I'm was lucid this whole time because I like of course like last night I got like the worst sleep I've had in months and was like of course it's going to be when it's like to talk about complicated concepts like. 02:49:07.53 Simón Me a good man me good. 02:49:12.24 Jala Ah, well thank you for giving up, um some of your precious sleep to come on and and talk about this subject. So um, some kind of wrap-up thoughts I'll just let it let you both do some wrap up thoughts anything you want to shout out that you weren't able to say an episode proper about. 02:49:29.30 Jala Masculinity and being a parent and partner and person in society and whatever any kind of like final bits. 02:49:43.46 Jala This thisss. 02:49:43.70 Dennis The only I'm reading my notes. The only the only thing that I would like really just want to end on um is the importance of of providing a clear model for positive masculinity. Ah. 02:50:01.20 Dennis You know to your kids. Obviously if that's a concern from them. But in general we we set it at the top and I'll say it at the bottom like it's It's not enough to just move away from something bad. You need to be moving towards something positive as well and so you know finding that and and. Giving kids a model for that I think is is just as important as showing them how not to do toxic things. 02:50:30.46 Simón Yeah I think um, this is kind of broader. But just you know you were talking about like how does ah the changing you know, kind of gender expression and our culture and everything like how does that affect things I Just think that that broadly Speaking. You know if if you are a man and trying to find a way to be a man. You know that doesn't feel ah harmful or awkward or you know fake or something. Um. Like I Hope you find something good in this episode but you know really like this can all gender can matter as as much or as little as it needs to for you. You know like if if you're like actually you know neither and a ah that's totally cool. 02:51:24.30 Simón Um, it's you know I like with my daughter I you know it was as weird having a child where it's like okay this baby does not know what gender is and I know the the world is immediately going to be like can we put a pink bow on on the head because this is you know how the body of this baby is. 02:51:43.55 Simón Like we wrestled with that a lot and like getting neutral color, everything and all that and I've basically put it like this is just ah yeah, this can matter as much or as little as you want it to ah in your own life. Um. But we should all just be fighting like hell so that whatever expression somebody has ah they're able to live you know a life with with dignity and Joy. So um, you know if if if if. If Gender is a really useful concept for you or you know being masculine or feminine. Awesome If. It's not you don't got to keep it Um, but let's just make sure there's there's room for for everyone to feel that out. 02:52:31.27 Jala ah ah Mike Drop hooray I'm I'm clapping like little golf clap. So I'm not smacking yeah smacking sounds and making stuff for Dave edits so right right? So ah oh no, oh no. 02:52:42.18 Simón That's for the ASMR cast The Jala's mouth sounds that wave. 02:52:42.54 Dennis The coffee tear is that. 02:52:51.30 Jala Somebody probably has that somewhere. They've probably made it I've been on Mike for so long anyway, okay, so where in the world can people find you on the internet if you are to be found Dennis. 02:53:02.71 Dennis Yeah I'm on Bluesky that's as close as I'll get to Twitter at furia games and then I hang out in the various discords Duckfeed for sure which I guess is a Slack technically and then. 02:53:19.46 Dennis Ah, Jala's Discord I'm trying to be more active in you know I pop in poppping. 02:53:22.23 Jala Every once a while if somebody pings you you just a ping him? Yeah, ah right right? and Simón how about you. 02:53:25.21 Simón Yeah, how do you do? fellow posters? Yeah, ah yeah, I'm I'm not really anywhere all that public but aside from I am my Jala's discord quite a bit on on and off I'm like a submarine and sometimes like my home planet needs me. But ah yeah I i. Ah yes, that's I it's all it's a whole Jules Verne thing to worry about it. ah but yeah yeah ah no but I I do hang out. Um as well on on you know some like. 02:53:44.93 Jala I know I was just like that's ok, well Simón is so tired. It's fine. 02:53:46.15 Dennis Ah, that's not what submarines do I Hate to break it to you? Okay, okay, that works. 02:54:03.90 Simón Tabletop rpg kind of thing. So. There's the vintage rpg podcast they have a Discord server that is generally a lot of cool people. Um, so yeah, if you ah like rpg stuff. Ah. Might see me around there. There's a lot of cool people. Um very encouraging and you know accepting of all gender identities and just generally like pretty chill. No ah, no grog nardy you know back in my day we didn't worry about that. 02:54:35.60 Jala Yeah, yeah, cool and of course you can find me everywhere I might be found @jalachan including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others. So until next time. Take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]