[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host, Jala Prendes, and today I am joined by Slade (he/him) and Alex (he/him), both of whom have been on this show before so welcome back to both of you. How are you doing today...Slade! 00:17.55 Slade I seem to be recurring character in the saga at this point. 00:21.20 Jala When it comes to certain types of media. Yes, you were on for Batman so it's been a minute. It's been a minute so how are you doing. 00:27.27 Slade Ah I was on The Batman. Yes I'm I'm noticing a certain theme though. The Batman, Phantom of the opera. It's dark and spooky season here. 00:38.91 Jala Slade has not answered my question about how he's doing today notably but okay so Slade is doing dark and spooky that's fitting for the month of October and this episode is going to be coming out on the twenty eighth right before Halloween anyway, so just in time you are in the right mood sir. 00:58.64 Jala So Alex how are you doing. 00:58.60 Alex _ picklefactory Feeling pretty good. It's been a week of an amazing amount of work and it's Friday afternoon and I spent my off time reading the Phantom of the Opera this week so it was seems worthwhile. 01:12.20 Jala Is it or is it just like you need a chaise lounge to go faint on because you know like the original Leroux is just so melodramatic. 01:17.18 Alex _ picklefactory Both sure. Yeah, a hammock to nap in but I will throw a dramatic arm out of the hammock and just or wildly. 01:21.98 Slade Ah, dramatic. 01:27.19 Jala There you go. 01:31.83 Slade Ah, there's a weird fusion of themes. 01:34.14 Jala You need a little fan in your hands so you can just like fan yourself. Although it you, you're in a cold place that would not be a good idea at this time for me. it's like I'm it's hot it's like 85ish right now. Um, yeah, 85 is actually nice like this isn't as anyway, that's not the point. 01:44.70 Slade Yeah, it's ninety today where I am. 01:51.99 Jala Okay, today we are talking about The Phantom of the Opera as Slade already spoiled for today. So what we're going to talk about is the original Leroux novel a little bit, the 1910 novel as well as the 1991 book Phantom by Susan Kay which actually is considered to be Phantom canon and it expounds upon the little kernels of information that Leroux gives you in his novel and gives all of the characters--breathes a lot more life into them and gives them a much more compassionate read and it is so hammy. It is so gothic horror melodrama you know Telanovela Times 70 um, you know romance you know all of that. Anyway, so a little bit about Leroux: he was a court reporter and a theater critic and eventually he became an international correspondent and his brother was a musician so he was actually when he wrote The Phantom of the Opera known as a crime writer he wrote novels like he had already written a detective mystery called The Mystery of the Yellow Room in one seven and so he was already well known internationally as a crime mystery author inspired by Edgar Allan Poe and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle so that's an interesting mixture. So ah, yes, yes, yes, so that's what he got in and you know honestly even the fact that he was a court reporter and an international correspondent and a theater critic. All of that shows in my opinion when you look at the way that he writes this original novel like it's kind of sparse in a lot of ways in a way that I would expect from somebody who's just doing a you know like a brief report on something. 03:24.71 Alex _ picklefactory It's very apparent too in places. Yeah. 03:51.40 Slade It feels like it's a as you say it feels like it's like a you know like a news article almost in a way. 03:57.24 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah. 03:57.38 Jala Yeah, well, it's it's kind of trying to because that was kind of in vogue at the time like oh these are the reports and I'm you know I assure you that these are a credible source. You know like I found these documents and now I'm reporting to you about what happened at the opera. 04:15.10 Jala And this actually was inspired because he was the court reporter for a case involving an investigation of the former paris opera the basement of it had a cell that held prisoners of the Paris Commune a radical socialist government. That ruled from March eighteenth to may Twenty seventh of 1871. 04:33.20 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah. 04:33.27 Slade That was during the Franco-Prussian War rights or in the aftermath of. 04:40.80 Jala Is somewhere around there I don't remember exactly where but yeah, so um, in either case like he kind of took that lifted it put it there and then made a gothic romance mystery horror something. 04:56.30 Jala Out of it that that a dramatic man who well I mean like his original version. They keep on calling it a death's head and you know like they taught they did the description of what Eric looks like is so um, ghastly. 04:57.94 Slade Ah, what? what? if there was a dramatic man hiding under the Bay in the basement. Ah, but yeah. 05:14.63 Jala But I will tell you that the Susan Kay Phantom book from 1991 goes into even more depth about how you know gruesome he looks in a way that I feel works for her very telenovela. Um dramatic. You know fashion of writing. 05:28.50 Slade Yes, Susan Kay really makes it sound like you can literally see his skull almost which is kind of terrifying to consider. 05:35.89 Jala Well I mean like I think at one point she even talks about how you know his his skin is almost translucent. He's super skeletal tall and with fingers that are super bony and like she always talks about how cold he is like death and all this other stuff to where it's like oh no. So Actually he's He's really creepy and not just like his face and also yeah, well and not only that. But just um. 05:56.41 Slade His entire demeanor is very unsettling. Basically. 06:01.21 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, is a no I'm just that's that's very much how he felt to me reading the novel right? You know in the in the terms of like our video game friends. He's like a fucked up little guy in the in the novel and he's very much not that when you're looking at the the musicals and the the you know the Andrew Lloyd Webber The you know the the you know masculine Hero you know antihero of the of the the drama writes. 06:28.53 Slade You know he he's very been especially like I think like since like especially the 90 s and onwards he's very he's kind of the character's been much more romanticsized than previously I remember when I was a child 1 year you I don't know if hero everyone else memberss those old magazines we used to get were a all of toys in them every create every freaking Christmas. 06:46.83 Slade There was 1 year where they had a set of Barbie dolls that were literally like the phantom Christine and Raul and of course it's literally just a reskin exactly exactly and if they're just a reskinned ken doll with a mask you take it off. It's like oh look, there's some lines on his face. 06:51.89 Jala Can and Barbie and me like midge or whatever her name was yeah yeah, yeah, well and the thing is is that I think over time what happened is that. 07:02.66 Alex _ picklefactory Um, right? Yes, Yes, exactly yeah. 07:09.76 Jala Okay, so phantom as a concept of like this disfigured or you know ghoulish kind of apparition hell demon man who has all of this capacity in in that kind of attractive you know. Lucifer Devil who can do everything and and is you know, really wiser? Whatever um, as like calling to mankind to you know, call them to the dock side or whatever. Um like that. 07:39.71 Jala Concept has just stayed with us and there's so many different ways in which just Phantom is everywhere. You can find references to it almost ubiquitously. It's just like a mimetic you know like a cultural thing now that's just in there. It's in the zeist at this point. But. 07:55.58 Slade You know, not that you mentioned it something just occurred to me. Um, there's in episode 3 of star wars films. There's actually a scene where it's kind of like the ceiling of the deal between anake and Palpatine and it happens at an operarod I'm kind of looking at that go and now going wait a minute Luke Lucas did you. 08:12.73 Slade Did you sneak that in there you like your references is that what that is. 08:14.59 Alex _ picklefactory What? Well you know what another one would be would be Bilbo wasting after the ring in you know, like ah the it's ma you know like that whole long Cheney look right? It's like an archetype that's been. You know the ah century of of movies have played off of that right? I Just just one look at that I was like oh yeah, that's where this comes from it's this right? yeah. 08:33.57 Jala Um, absolutely and um, yeah, yeah, so like the concept of the character has just been with us for a long time but like I feel especially since the 90 s especially since like Anne Rice 08:50.15 Jala Stuff Got super super popular that Phantom stuff kind of got melded with this concept and the concept really of just like a lot of horror for certain folks for a long time like. Ah, vampires are attractive and now werewolves are attractive and also there's a Phantom and he's attractive and he's like he's just got like up a burn Scar on his ah the other side of his face that's covered up. You know like. 09:12.33 Slade Exactly it's actually something I I really like about ky's novel specifically that you don't see in a lot of the movies or and even some of the other you know novelizations that have happened um is that it really ah because in the k novels of course we know how worn down he is by the end by the time of the the operatic incident. That's all he yeah, it's towards the end of his life. It's towards he's he's worn down after everything has been through and it shows in Kay's novel in a way that we don't always get to see in other expressions of the character so often he's portrayed as almost otherworldly and you know vampiric you know, like you mentioned. 09:46.40 Slade But in Kay's novel she humanizes him and shows that yes, he's still incredibly intelligent, incredibly powerful but he has deteriorated. He has very much decayed from all the experiences had throughout his life. 09:58.91 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So um, it's it's interesting because when the k novel starts. It's from. The point of view of Eric's mother Madeline and she gives birth and she's all hopeful. Her husband has died. She's a young ah bride who doesn't know how to do anything for herself and is really childlike herself and she gives birth and she's all hopeful and then. Out pops Eric and she is so horrified and terrified that she wants to kill it. She doesn't want to feed well actually she wants to just not feed the baby. Yeah yeah. 10:38.36 Alex _ picklefactory Um, the the the midwife runs away and is never heard from again or something is know what she says? yeah. 10:39.59 Slade Well I think yeah and I think ah if I remember correctly I remember the start of the book correctly doesn't she even ask the priest the town priest like can I just kill it can we kill it and let it be a mercy killing. 10:49.99 Jala Well, she was like well if I just stopped feeding him or if I just don't feed him and then the priest was just like we're not doing that because you're Catholic and that's like you know you know you can't do that. It's. 11:03.14 Slade Yeah, like no no infanticide for you. 11:08.88 Jala And then he's like well you've got to give your son a name and then she's like I don't care name him after yourself because she doesn't want to call him anything you know. 11:17.35 Slade And I think it's so it's so interesting like I read that book. Originally obviously when you introduced me to a years ago reading it again now. Um it it just reinforces the whole cause of like you know I really have to wonder it's like how much of this is like how much of his nature that we see throughout the book. Is Eric just being Eric versus Eric dealing with all of the traumatic bullshit his mother put him through. 11:41.88 Jala Um, so it's yeah, like at first Madeline talks about Eric in terms of the thing and she immediately put a mask on him and the only reason why she ended up. 11:50.48 Slade Yep. 11:56.34 Jala Feeding him because she was so terrified and whatever is just because even as an infant she noticed that when he cried it was super melodious and his eyes which are misaligned still have like a light in them that captures her and you know like he's got this. Otherworldly power that immediately everybody is like he's a devil child but he's Baby. He's Innocent. You can't kill Him. He didn't do anything you know and so on so that he's alive but you know, um. He definitely has like a supernatural power that is laid out at the beginning of the book hits his voice So like he cries and then his mom will feed him and then the moment he stops crying she freaks out and bats him away. And like do she you know he is abused so badly like emotionally physically I don't remember if she threw him or if she just like knocked him off her chest I don't know what exactly happened? Yeah yeah. 12:48.10 Slade Isn't just batting him away doesn't she like literally throw him. 12:55.63 Slade Fair enough but bad enough. Either way. 13:02.10 Jala So something that was interesting to me. Um, which I only realized when I was going back to the beginning to flip through it again is that coincidentally ok so Eric's father -- Madeline's husband who died before this book begins. His name is Charles. Charles is the name of Christine's son at the end of the book. So that's actually and it's interesting because um, at the end of the book. 13:37.74 Jala When Raul is talking about Charles. He's saying yeah he doesn't look like me or Christine he looks like these people in these photographs which are like um, some or not photographs I guess it would be portraits or whatever. Um, portraits of Eric's parents that he had that Christine kept with her and so Charles is son of Eric and Christine and looks like the perfect child that should have been basically. 14:13.42 Slade Yeah, which is an interesting theme to end the book on honestly in a way. It's like here's that child that the mother always wanted. 14:16.87 Jala Basically. 14:24.20 Jala Named after the husband the way that she wanted to originally name Eric and then not only that. But this character you know this character for the brief moment that you see or hear about him ah is basically somebody that Raul relies on implicitly and who is very kind and gentle. But he's also super attractive but he's also musically gifted and all this other stuff so he's. 14:50.54 Slade It's essentially it's very much implied that like essentially he is the combination of Christine's beauty with also all the talents of his father you know Eric the phantom. 14:58.11 Jala Yeah, yep, yep, but that is jumping like all the way ahead. It's just that I if I didn't mention that right now I would have forgotten all about it by the time we got to that. So but the K novel talks about how Eric lived this super abused life at home but he had this capacity to fascinate people with his voice and he has the capacity to throw his voice like he learns ventriloquism and he starts learning magic tricks and. You know all this other stuff because he's kept at home. He's never taken out of the house. He's shut up all the time there are times when his mom will like leave him to go to town and locks him in a closet and stuff like that. So super super child abuse going on there. And eventually there's like an incident where his dog dies and he gets really upset because the dog was the only entity like living being that just loved him and you know wasn't judgmental about how he looked and so. He's heartbroken and then he ends up leaving after a big fight with his mom and because he wants to actually like go out in the world and try to do stuff and she's like you can't you can't not looking like that you can't and he's like by and so off he goes he gets captured by gypsies. And then is put in a cage and then touted around as a sideshow for a long time until he coaxes his slave owner ah to say well, how about we negotiate, you get me out of this cage and let me have a tent and I will do. 16:47.81 Jala This this this and this I will sing I will do tricks I will do whatever and then I will show them my face because you require that I do that and eventually he ends up gaining like power among the romani people and because of just like again his his capacity to do literally everything. So so slate like what did you feel about the beginning of how all of that set up I mean he was learning architecture stuff because his dad was an architect and you know Masonry and he learned a little bit of that. He picked up drawing skills. He picked up in Triloquism. He picked up music and all this other stuff you know at home. Yeah, like this is all like nascent Phantom for real like he's getting most of his stuff except for like some of the later skills that get honed in. 17:29.57 Alex _ picklefactory Little Poly math of a phantom. 17:43.10 Jala It's really really crucial, but the way that it's written is so dramatic. 17:50.42 Slade It's all very formative like almost every single skill. He later used especially during the the actual incident at the Opera House. You can very much see the formative moments of all those skills He has all those talents all his interests in his childhood as he's learning all these different skills. You know Architecture. He takes from his father's library. Ah, you know he learns how it be of entrilicus like you mentioned I think it's because his nanny gave him a book. At one point I believe um, he even did it? Yeah I think it. But I think that's what it was and. 18:15.25 Jala I think for his birthday or something. 18:21.86 Slade He also learns a fascination from mirrors which leads into another part of the book which is incredibly dark and kind of blends into his callousness towards human life. But one of the things I think actually one to mention was when he actually leaves his mother's house. It isn't just because of ah yeah, the fight they have because they do have that argument. Of how he you know hates being locked away how you know the villagers murdered his dog and he's furious at them and wants to hurt them and just there's all these things that happen but 1 of the thoughts he has is he is leaving is an interesting one especially contrast with how he can be portrayed very much as a very selfish and. You know self centered character is one of his first thoughts upon leaving is that his mother is now safe. His mother can have a normal life and he is happy for her to do so. 19:10.44 Jala Oh and yeah, like you can put a pin in that because later on in the book. It comes back and he finds out what really happened because like his mom also has like a love interest. There's a doctor that's interested in marrying her and she might have a chance at a normal life. Um, you know like. In the village with everyone else and all of that and that's what Eric is imagining for her at this point he's thinking. Well if I leave then she has the ability to go out there and go you know do all of this stuff so I need to to go away because this is just going to imprison her forever just like I'm imprisoned here and at 1 point he actually uses his voice throws his voice into like a little angel figurine and then his mom starts to you know, talk about like starts losing it and is like this is my baby and puts it in the crib and does all this other stuff because he's just breaking. 20:02.60 Slade Yeah, he basically bewitchches her essentially and drives her a little insane. 20:07.23 Jala Ah, he's yeah he breaks her mind and that's what that's part of what he realizes is not only is she being abusive to me I have broken her I need to go you know so. 20:18.54 Slade Yeah, exactly. 20:21.96 Jala And that's kind of like the repeating pattern that happens throughout all of the and Susan Kay Novel I will say um, just taking a pause. It was written in 91 it was reprinted around the time of the Gerard Butler um movie version of the Andrew Lloyd Weber musical and then it was never reprinted again. There does not exist a purchasable ebook but there is an ebook out there. Pdf you can Google for and also you can still buy paperbacks and hardbacks. But I think it's out of print and you have to buy old copies. So um. 20:56.60 Slade Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty sure you if you want to actually get your hand on the book. It has to be used copy at this point. 20:58.46 Jala Just bear that in mind it them? Yeah yeah, so just just a heads up like if if what you're already hearing sounds cool to you. You're probably going to need to go and look up see if you can find a book or there is again like a copy. Somebody scanned of it or or printed it off a web page I don't know where they got it from but anyway there is a pdf out there if you want to Google for it. So um, so Alex how does all of this sound I know you only got about. 21:28.62 Alex _ picklefactory I love it so much you you are so like yeah I've only read the first fifty pages of ah of a k novel but I read the ah you know the woru novel which I just got from project gutenberg who can just go download it and it's an amazing copy. 21:46.19 Alex _ picklefactory Or or rendition out of translation I guess it's written in french originally in and you know like 1 of the things I noticed is that ah it calls the ah original you but they talk about the the prison beneath the opera they call them the you know the communist prison. 22:05.60 Jala Ah, ah her. 22:05.34 Alex _ picklefactory I think commun art would be the the proper term for that right because they didn't have communists in 1872 making a revolution in France that didn't happen like it was like oh wait hold on and like it. It has like interesting little details like um. 22:23.29 Alex _ picklefactory Occasionally printing lines in all capitals for no forciable reason which kind of makes this you know it's ironically enjoyable to see that. Um, but yeah, this is like everything that you've said is a summary of like the last the epilogue of the larue novel. He basically says everything that you've talked about you know Eric was born to you know his mom his dad was a stonemason he you know he was traveled with the roma you you know circus or whatever he was doing there I had a a a job. Underneath the but what do you call them? Um, forget yes, yes, indeed is like the you know builder of trapdoors and all that stuff. But but you but the way that you mentioned I mean like I feel like the way that you put it originally with perfect right? It is kind of like partially a. 23:19.83 Alex _ picklefactory Journalism kind of account right? Partially a melodrama partially a gothic romance partially a a work of um, get of detective fiction right with like ah like you know Arthur Conan Doyle and it kind of does all of these things and it kind of. 23:39.28 Alex _ picklefactory Really impressed upon me as I read it that that everything that it's doing is kind of a a ah conglomeration of these popular styles of fiction at the time right? And at the time I mean very early twentieth century. So when was it published like Nineteenth ten nineteenth fifteen like that. 23:55.15 Jala Um, oh in yeah 1910 23:58.85 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, and so like oh well Arthur Conan Doyle was ah was a force in popular fiction at the time so words was like gothic fiction like Poe so was like all of these things play. A huge part in like kind of what you get out of reading phantom of the opera right? like almost kind of in order you know is like he starts it out like. 24:18.37 Alex _ picklefactory Oh yes I have this is a journalistic count of what happened at the Paris Opera and I applied to all the people in the know and they said I was right right? like this kind of always starts and then it becomes this incredible like ah like an xpose almost of like what is it like with in the opera with the. 24:37.41 Alex _ picklefactory Members of the ballet and the you know all the people that open and close the doors and provide the the gas for the fireworks and ring the curtains up and down and do the lights and all the ah you know all the backstage stuff right? It kind of feels like a. 24:54.64 Alex _ picklefactory We're going to bring you inside this place that you might not know that well right from there it it veers into the you know and and to describe the plot right? Ah, it's a story of you know the Paris Opera you know the investigation made by monsieur le rue and ah. 25:14.29 Alex _ picklefactory How the opera ghost right? who you know who's the the subject of Rumor among the members of the opera becomes the focus of the actual plot of the novel when he starts interfering in the production of the operas that are going on right? So he says stuff like. Um, you know you're gonna you're gonna have I you will have Christine die sing rather than the original marguerite in fot when you put it on and you also start giving me money I'm blackmailing you and he's. 25:50.30 Alex _ picklefactory Causing these demands to be put upon the owners and managers of the opera and there's you know this kind of investigation. There's reluctance on the part of the owners and from there it just kind of takes this turn into Christine right? as she you know carlota. The ah the you know Prima Donna of the opera ah finds the she can't perform she says a coac I think I it you know she tries to sing a line. She completely implodes this is after a threat from the opera ghost that Christine should sing instead and. 26:29.59 Alex _ picklefactory The chandelier crashes upon the audience there's chaos and mayhem and everyone realized that the opera ghost is kind of ah playing a larger part in the the way that the opera is being performed then than everyone thought everyone thought that he was like. The reason box number 5 is empty is because of opera ghosts. It's a romantic kind of thing that's happening here at the at the Paris Opera isn't that you know, wildly appropriate actually people were being killed. Oh and I think I'm forgetting. Something. 27:04.52 Alex _ picklefactory There was a a worker at the opera who is found hanged also and the implication in the Journalistic side of things is that he found out too much and the opera ghosts did away with him am I missing anything from the I don't think so so. 27:58.60 Jala One thing that's interesting to me is that just occurred to me while I was listening to you Alex was that this book like the original larue novel has this um detective character nuttier or the persian or beroga. 28:18.18 Jala Depending upon what you want to call him and he's chief of police. Yeah and the interesting thing about that character though is that he's the detective in this setting and he is. 28:18.39 Alex _ picklefactory Um, yeah, deroga is kind of like chief right? like kind of right. 28:35.13 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah. 28:35.21 Jala Trying to you know pursue Eric but the framework of this novel is such that the detective is not the main character. So even though it is a detective story. It's not focusing on the detection. 28:50.76 Jala Or any of that it's focusing on this love thing that's going on over there and then like the antagonist that is trying to be cut but like not directly from Eric's point of view. It's you know like this this thing that's focusing on like these 2 people at the opera and what's going on with that and like the detection part of it is kind of like the sideline to all the other stuff that's being paraded in the novel. 29:16.93 Alex _ picklefactory What I really love that about it in the sense that um, it really felt like it's like we can't have Raul is is way too flighty to be the guy who gets out of the situation. We need a more straightforwardly. 29:32.75 Alex _ picklefactory You know how could I put it. Ah yes, we need someone who has some practical skills not Laura Rawell who just fires pistols at the foot of his bed when he gets spooked right? We need so and so like oh we have this other guy but it kind of changes. The. 29:33.85 Slade A more efficient character. Perhaps. 29:52.10 Alex _ picklefactory You would expect a gothic romance to have a love triangle at the center of it right? which is Raoul Eric Christine but the second half of the novel. It's kind of like the actual triangle is Raoul Eric and the persian rights like it's like oh who's this guy and he's kind of like replaced. 30:11.17 Alex _ picklefactory Christine is kind of the focus of the of the novel and the second half of it was indeed. 30:12.54 Slade It it is definitely a very unorthodox way approach it I actually had a funny thought just now um mi know Jara was mentioning how this is kind of that this does have the detective story theme to it only we're not seeing it from the detective's point of view. We're seeing it from you know the we'll say it the yeah, the pursuers or the pursuance point of view. Eric in this case and I'm kind of wondering if the the manga and anime like serious loop and the third take a little inspiration from that because that's basically the whole premise there is though we're not following the detective. We're following the thief. 30:40.52 Jala Yeah, yeah, it could be because so many things actually take inspiration from this book and the funny thing is is that the larue original novel I read it. When I was young after I watched the Lon Cheney movie the Lon Cheney movie was my first introduction to phantom which is actually a pretty accurate. You know, like probably the most accurate rendition of it in some other format that is not a book format. Um, and i. You know, watch that movie. That was my first introduction to phantom I decided to read the original novel I read the novel and I was like disappointed because so like I don't really like these characters like any of them I don't I can't really get into the style It's kind of weird this stuff just kind of gets like hinted at but it's never explained and. I mean I understand if you're a court reporter. You're not going to get all of the other details behind like how we get to this point you just are presenting facts and that's what you get and that's what you know is happening here. 31:41.36 Alex _ picklefactory It it. It's it's so weird though right? because it does that some of the time right? It's like just the facts I'm just going to and then it's like and then it's like I'm going to have an entire you know 5 pages of dialogue that's all Christine oh Christine i. 31:44.68 Jala And then it goes for paragraphs and other points. Yeah. 32:00.76 Alex _ picklefactory I've like like that just literally that on the page right? like it. It kind of changes tone wildly at hips. Yeah. 32:01.79 Slade Um, yeah, it will. It's a it does I remember I read it originally it was actually oddly enough and I affiliate admit I apparently set my difficulties are hard when I did this the phantom was actually 1 of the first books I ever read after I learned to read. 32:18.89 Slade Funnily enough and yeah, no I don't know I don't know why for the life of me that was the book I read um I don't remember why it. But I think it was because it this is true but it wasn't them. It was a. 32:27.18 Jala Because your parents were literary folks. 32:36.53 Slade Book that was just sitting in my classroom when I was like in third grade because that was the you know I I learned to read the year before third grade I was slow and for some reason that was in my classroom and that was the first book I chose to read read when I got back to school after having learned and. 32:53.82 Slade Had to say a very similar experience to Jala because I knew of the phantom I'd seen the musical as a child. My parents took me to see it and I'd seen ah the v long cheney film as well. So I was familiar with it and I liked it and I read the book I remember being so like kind of almost put off by the book. 33:10.21 Jala And you know I reread the book multiple times after that like I read it when I was young and then like every I don't know five to ten years or so I would pick it up and read it again. Probably more like 5 years every five years I would pick this up and read it again and go nope still don't like it nope still don't like it I Don I don't like this book but I like the Andrew like eventually I got into the Andrew Lloyd Webber music or you know like broadway musical and then when the 2004 movie came out I was like ok Gerard Butler is way too pretty to be Eric the way that he's supposed to be. 33:45.28 Jala However, he's easy on the eyes and that's fine I'm like in college I'll take it you know, but. 33:51.52 Slade I will say that you know while Gerard Butler is definitely too pretty to be the role even when he his the mask off it's like oh look, you're badly burned doesn't look that bad dude um he does bring a certain energy and passion to the role which is oftentimes I find kind of I've seen a couple different actors. 34:08.29 Slade Dude the Broadway play now and Gerard Butler has a passion in in his role as the phantom and Eric that a lot of stage actors don't really seem to bring to it for so whatever. Reason. 34:16.19 Jala Yeah I've I've seen a couple of different renditions of Eric on you know, like in the musical version and nobody else did like okay drawer Butler is not Mr. Best singing man but he is definitely like definitely brings. 34:35.82 Jala The energy of Eric like the intensity that you would imagine from a broken genius and he hits that on the head real hard and and gets that you know nailed in real you know, dialed in real good. So um, but yeah, his prettiness is definitely um. 34:39.60 Slade Exactly. 34:54.92 Jala I feel directly linked to like Anne Rice interview with the vampire pretty boys and you know later on stuff like twilight happened? yeah yeah I mean later on you get twilight. So I mean like it's it's like an ongoing you got to have the pretty dangerous supernatural critters of horror you know. 34:58.78 Slade Yeah, no, it's definitely a product of its time. 35:12.83 Slade I always like um, there's several novels that do this that I've read over the years when it comes to we were talking about Anne Rice and vampires in general briefly. Um I was like and the phantom in a way is kind of a parable of this. That idea that yes, it's all pretty and everything but like the moment you piss it off or if it reveals its true self. Oh shit. 35:30.84 Jala And that's something that Susan K to go back to the Susan Kay novel that's something that she does really really well is express how like you don't ever get a sense that he's just. Acting irrationally for no reason whatsoever like he's just an intense personality and has been since a child. He gets very fixated on things and then he flies into an intense. Emotion either 1 way or the other like 100% into a thing because he is busy on a task and he will work himself to death trying to finish it and make it perfect and he's obsessed with perfection because he himself is imperfect in the eyes of everyone around him and so like you know he's. 36:14.76 Jala Super obsessed with that or you know he flies into a rage if he's interrupted if something doesn't go right? if somebody says no, he's just like what you know like this you know he's he's he's. Focused on control because he doesn't have any control of himself or his capacity to be out in the world really because it keeps on he keeps on attempting to make forays into the world and the Susan K novel and every time he does some some shit happens and. It ends up going really really poorly and he has to move on and he has to keep on moving on and he just gets so tired by the end of the novel because after the romany thing he was with the romany the slave driver actually at one point when he gets old enough decides that he looks you know he would be interesting to have. And so the slave driver wants to ah, physically sexually assault him and out of fear in being completely innocent having no idea what's going on. Um Eric ends up killing the guy and. 37:22.86 Slade Was he's still a child at the time too I think right I remember correctly. Yeah ah. 37:25.35 Jala Yeah, he is that was his first he was like 13 maybe like you know something like that and after that there is um, a romani girl who is missing everybody's like oh my god where'd she go well she had a lover. Was not romani which meant that she was going to be banished if she you know was caught Eric because everybody was worried went looking for her because he didn't want her to be hurt somewhere by herself finds her and then he's like you know, come on come with me, you know and all this and then she's like. I'm going to tell everybody that you assaulted me and he knows that everybody is going to turn on him because he's not romany and he's like the quote unquote freak show. You know? So um, he ends up having yeah who are they going to believe the romany girl or him you know so. 38:11.67 Slade Who are they going to believe right. 38:20.86 Jala Then at that point he ends up getting shoved off from the romanie and then he ends up coming across when he's just um, wandering kind of aimlessly he ends up coming across um a stonemason and architect who is you know like hasn't had. An apprentice in a very long time but he notices Eric just on the construction site looking at you know his work and and super super interested and everything and it's like huh. Well you know let's see how talented he is and then. When he realizes that Eric is so talented. He's like I will absolutely have him as my apprentice I haven't had an apprentice in forever because nobody has the work ethic or the talent but I will have him as my apprentice but then ah the stonemason's daughter who is very spoiled. Is very much like Madeline Eric's mom comes to live with him and she ends up becoming obsessed with Eric just wants him to take off the mask is always wondering what he's doing and is kind of in love with him but kind of just curious and in being selfish. And. 39:30.68 Slade She she has a very ah to ah context a lot of people will probably understand. It's very much a a Ro salt kind of character. 39:36.95 Jala Yeah, yeah, and so he Eric is actually like in puppy love with her too just because you know he hasn't been around women his own age. You know so um, anyway, at one point. 39:54.28 Jala They're in the rooftop garden and she corners him and says I want you to take off that mask and then the father slash Master Mason or whatever comes out and because he's just darn sick of these children. Yeah, and just. Driving everybody crazy and um also just like wasting away and and suffering and and whatever he's just like Eric just take off the mask. Okay, just do it and Eric. You know that breaks his trust with Eric because that was the 1 thing that Eric didn't want anybody to tell him to do and that's the 1 thing that they all of course wanted him to do ah the girl in a fit of emotional you know Temper Tantrum runs away and then ends up. When she like goes up against the side railing or whatever. Ah some of the stone masonry just breaks and she falls to her death so pretty obviously Eric leaves that situation. 40:58.50 Slade I don't remember account doesn't she doesn't she see his face in her fear. Yeah, that's what makes her run. 41:04.10 Jala Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. That's what it is She sees his face because he's like fine you want to see it fine and he he pulls off the mask. 41:09.94 Slade Yeah, exactly he and then he take it takes it off and I think I don't know if she she runs or backs up I don't I don't know what it is like she backs up to like a part of the rail that's damaged. It gives way and then she falls unfortunately. 41:22.42 Jala Well, he's not trying to get anywhere near her. She's just so scared that she just you know, backs up and backs up and backs up her. Yeah yeah, yeah, so so but he is. 41:26.78 Slade yeah no yeah yeah did yeah yeah Eric Eric doesn't do anything directly to her. She just she gets what she wants and oh shit. 41:39.97 Jala Picked up Stone Masonry by that point and then after that he's wandering around Europe and just traveling doing Magician shows and things like that and singing for people for a number of years at which point. 41:52.34 Alex _ picklefactory Um, it's amazing. The number of of little things he picks up isn't it. It's like I love it. 41:55.81 Slade But you know he very much is ah he very much like it's one of the best things about the K Novel is that because the original novel. Obviously we see him at the you know, kind of the end of it all in a way where it's like okay this guy has all these talents and it's just kind of doing everything whereas the K novel takes us in detail. Through his life and shows us how he got all these different skills and talents that we ultimately know him for. 42:16.84 Jala And not only that. But in the K novel everything feels natural to what's going on like it doesn't seem like forced like she's trying to shoehorn in a rationale for something That's not what happens he develops characters that are so complex. 42:17.48 Alex _ picklefactory Indeed. 42:29.75 Slade Oh yeah I know. 42:35.38 Jala As to feed directly into the you know like the end result she's looking for. 42:42.50 Slade Yeah, Kay actually is a um I think she has 2 or 3 novels last I checked I think she only did like 2 or 3 you know novels ah, 1 of them was this I think another one was I think it was I think was about either Bodoca or Elizabeth the first i' remember which one she did but she did 2 she did 1 or 2 other historical ah fictions I believe um, but she does a great job something I always strive to do with my own writing as well is ah even her most minor random side side characters. Feel incredibly fleshed out and fully realized which isn't something a lot of authors able to do and I really applaud her for making that filling her world with such characters characters that feel like they are realistic and not just jammed in there to fill a plot point. 43:22.99 Jala And so we go from that to him traveling all over the place being becoming acculturated because he's gone. He's gone everywhere and then the shah in Persia overhears about. You know people talking about this magician who is so magical and and has all of these skills so talented. You know, really must be seen and decides that he wants to fetch this magician for his mother. The condom to entertain her because he's really kind of a puppet leader she's really the leader behind Persia at this juncture and so he sends Nadir who is the daroga or the persian as we see him in the larue novel and he travels to Russia and goes to meet Eric tries to convince him to come back to Persia. Eventually manages to do so and then along the way back saves Eric and Eric saves him multiple times and they end up forming a kind of friendship before they go back to Persia but his character is fleshed out greatly. He had a wife that he was deeply in love with who passed away and even though his faith is you know in his culture says that he can have up to 3 wives at a time. He never remarried anybody and he only has 1 son Reza who is sickly and looks just like the mom. So. 44:57.66 Jala You know, um nadir dotes on him but also he's sick and he doesn't know what to do Eric when Eric sees Reza goes I'm so sorry because he realizes that Reza is dying. He's not going to live for very much longer and so Eric without being asked. Just on his own out of compassion decides that he's going to slave away and make all of these different like toys for him and entertain him and tell him stories and basically make his last days as happy as he can. And nadir gets jealous of him for a while because you know he feels like his son was taken away by this random stranger who showed up. Um, but when eventually reza ends up having to pass away and he's starting to go downhill and he's like at the point where he doesn't have a quality of life anymore. Eric. Offers to nadir here if you give him this he will have a quiet slumber and he will pass away and nadir is not strong enough to do it in that moment. So Eric does it for him and you know helps give his son a peaceful death. So they have like this really really strong bond that goes beyond you know concepts of right and wrong like the daroga does not ah believe in all of the deaths that Eric causes and you know all of the fact that Eric is like the moment he walks into the shah's palace he is. 46:29.47 Jala Going up to the peacock throne and prising diamonds out of it and replacing them with cut glass and keeping them for himself and you know because he's like an incessant pick pocket and thief and he steals stuff wherever he goes So um, ahha it's basically how he learned to survive and. 46:43.95 Slade It's kind of just how he's learned to survive honestly. 46:49.27 Jala So like when he goes to see the condom. The condom is interested in making him perform like because she's just I don't know twisted didn't she a Slade originally want him to perform sexually for her and then when that wasn't a thing. He's like ah no. Then she ends up having him kill people and that's how he you know it starts with the punjab lasso and the torture machines and stuff. 47:09.73 Slade Well, what happens is yeah you you're you right? initially she demands essentially wants to turn him into a concubine which he obviously refuses um and then essentially. This This woman is essentially kind of I Jokingly say she's like the architect for all the the huts you read about in Star Wars because there's several huts who basically take a lot of points from her. She basically essentially starts having him almost hunt. You know quote Unquote guess. That she brings damn servants etc and eventually she gets bored of the you know the simple lasso stuff so she asks them to escalate and he escalates with different gadgets and traps and at one point if I remember correctly he actually builds her like a full on as death maze like mirrors and traps and all kinds of horrors. 48:04.24 Slade And it's it's on the one hand it's a wonderful testament to the characters. You know Eric's intelligence and brilliance as a designer and architect and all this other stuff and as a magician too by the other hand. It's like it really drives home that sense of just he does not. Have a value of human life. He doesn't understand the value of human life to him. This is all just you know he is a spider entertaining his mistress in this case and these are all the flies. He's collected. 48:31.64 Jala Well, a couple of things there first off the fact that he uses mirrors is important because the mirror setup with Kbook is at the very beginning like he's fascinated with mirrors and terrified of them and they are a theme throughout the entire book. 48:47.70 Jala So anytime a mirror shows up, you know that's important the use of the word spider like spiders are brought up as Imagery and as direct you know, um you know, direct metaphor This is this you know at multiple points in the book as well. 49:01.98 Slade Well, it's actually it's a very. It's a one of the I Guess you'd say most traumatic moments for him as a child too is when his mother rips off his mask and holds up a mirror dam and for whatever reason you know she she never has the courage or strength of character to tell them that's your face you you know. 49:20.77 Slade Look like that she tells you instead. That's a monster and keep the mask on it will keep the monster away which kind of begins his fascination with mirrors. He he yeah he associates both his mask as a child at least his mask and mirrors with magic which is yeah obviously what he carries on in part working for the ottomans. 49:38.82 Jala Well and um, another thing I wanted to comment is that's the second time we've heard a star wars comment. So like maybe there's more Dna here with them. You know some influences than we originally might have thought. So Alex you are tittering. 49:56.85 Alex _ picklefactory I'm just amused because it's kind of like um I got that far in the K novel and she says like well I scarred him for life whoops. There's like very like ah yep, well that did it. 50:03.86 Slade Yep, Ah, she she the the mother is so callous and uncaring towards him. It's like like. 50:05.28 Jala Um, yeah, she's just like oh well. Oops. 50:15.83 Slade I Have a very strong parental drive I'm very good of kids I care about them very deeply I will I mean I will literally just like oh mine now I will take care of you it a reading. The mother is just kind of horrifying to me. 50:24.90 Alex _ picklefactory Um, well it it it. It strikes me that a mother that that that was like that would not have the insight to be able to say to write something like that too. You know I'm saying like. 50:33.72 Slade Well, the the thing with her is like it's it's this in this rubs off on Eric in a big way. It's why he's so infatuated with Christine later on um Madeline the mother is incredibly shallow in her affections. 50:50.65 Slade Like she is an intelligent woman. She's well educatated she mentions multiple times in her part of the book that she puts on the facade of you know a bubbleheaded young woman just to you know, look pretty to everybody but she is intelligent and. 50:52.56 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, no kidding. 51:05.49 Slade So she is both simultaneously aware of the abuse. She's doing to him while also despising him because in her mind he has nothing but hideous monstrosity. It makes what she does to him honestly in my mind all the more horrifying. 51:17.70 Jala Well the thing about Madeline is that she is. We have to separate this out here. She is head smart. She is not emotionally intelligent and and so that's that's where there's a giant disconnect because um. 51:18.28 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah. 51:23.38 Slade Correct. Yes. 51:30.78 Jala You know she was hoping for this perfect baby in this perfect setting with her perfect husband until he died and then all this other stuff happened and now we're here. But um, yeah, that that character of Madeline is echoed in the stonemason think his name is Giovanni. 51:48.29 Slade I believes I think I can remember his daughter I Never remember the daughter's name. Okay, yeah. 51:50.31 Jala Giovanni's Luciana yeah, and in Giovanni's daughter Luciana ah, she's the same way that's like Eric's first love and then you know when he sees Christine she Kay even says that she Christine looks like his mom. 52:09.50 Jala So like he he the 1 thing he wanted from his mom that he never got was a kiss for her for his birthday 1 year when he was like think 5 he's wanted a kiss and he asked for a Kiss and Madeline said. No you can't I'm not going to give you that. You know you know you can't ask for that so you know he's wanted affection from his mom or mom surrogate and he's found a couple of mom surrogates over the years who are are like how she was and one of them happens to be Christine right. 52:42.46 Slade Yeah, it's it's it's interesting and you have cut very sad tragic that just how much both the beauty of his mother and also just the abuse of his mother sticks with him about the entire arc of his character. 52:58.90 Jala Yeah, absolutely. But then again, um, that's kind of to be expected because his mother was his entire world along with his dog. You know. 53:09.22 Slade Yeah, because I mean well especially I think I don't remember how old he was when he left I think it was like ten or 11 however, old he was when he fled um essentially he only had like a half dozen people in his life at most it was the mother the maid. Ah the dog obviously the priest. 53:22.56 Jala The the priest and that's like and I think like 1 1 mason guy and who taught him a little bit when he was at home yet. Yeah. 53:27.80 Slade At yeah I think that yeah there was an architect who came to visit him. Yeah, just and ah the thing I The the architect speaking of the architect. You know it's so odd to me or not odd, but just. 53:27.71 Alex _ picklefactory Of course. 53:46.48 Slade Kind of it just echoes that line of just treatment of the mother how she you know brings in the architect to satiate Eric's mind and then some ofhany also drives him out again once she's like no stop teaching to him the horrible stuff. Yeah, you're giving him tools to torture me stop that it. 54:03.27 Slade And and instead of you know I think I think it was the mirrors specifically if I remember correctly. 54:05.75 Jala Yeah, well so yeah, well so that's the thing about the mirrors to pull it all the way back to the to Persia and what Eric's doing there so the the ret let let me just go ahead and resolve the rest of what was going on there and then we can talk about the mirrors. 54:06.17 Alex _ picklefactory He's good. He's gonna start with the trap doors and stuff can't have that. 54:23.45 Jala So um, he also at the same time was building a new palace for the shah and while this was going on the new. The grand vizier was hating on Eric because Eric could do whatever he wanted and all of that and eventually the grand vizier. Who had many many enemies because he was very progressive and wanted to um, you know do more for the people eventually he got killed and his wife who truly loved him who was the sister of the shah was remarried immediately with no mourning period. To a new person who was the new grand vizier and this sent Eric into a complete rage because he does not hurt women. He does not hurt children. That's his rule and you know he was upset because they just disregarded her completely and they had been. You know the vizier and the woman had been completely in love and. 55:15.76 Jala You know all of this so at a very public function. He completely just dishes the new Grand vizier and says something about oh hopefully he's better with his secondhand earnings or something like that and that just sets him as a mark for Assassins because. They're not going to tolerate that kind of disrespect from just a common person or a court magician. So yeah, yeah, So at that point. 55:38.30 Slade Yeah, because that's that is how he's viewed he's viewed kind of as a core curiosity. 55:46.62 Alex _ picklefactory I Have no I have no read on how realistic any of this stuff is with the the ottoman Empire right. 55:49.51 Jala It doesn't really matter I mean like it starts it starts out with this whole super drama of like my supernatural baby. So I mean I mean there's a certain point to where you just got to go with it. 55:58.36 Alex _ picklefactory Um, well it Well the thing the thing is that the thing is that like no I get that it's just that like it's just that like the part of it That's like here's the opera house and here's the back you know, like here's the. 56:04.51 Slade Um, the the the the Palace politics. Ah. 56:16.34 Alex _ picklefactory You know the ballerinas and the the managers and like that is all cast to this very straightforward journalistic thing and then when it comes to oh yes in in the ottoman court they have torture rooms full of trapdoors and mirrors and Strangle nooses and like. 56:27.50 Jala Well I mean can you not just say that that's. 56:32.73 Alex _ picklefactory I Don't think that any of that is wrong I don't think that that's like incorrect totally but it's just kind of like this ah like I don't know how seriously to take it right. 56:35.65 Slade I will say that like the the court politics. Yeah, the the court politics of the ottoman Ark that whole arc of that story Yeah is very accurate but whether or not you know whether or not we can say the death Palace thing is accurate. 56:48.65 Alex _ picklefactory Um, they do Strangle each other a bunch. Yeah. 56:53.70 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, that part is what I more on I mean. 56:54.15 Jala Well okay, so there's a certain point to which we have to remember that he is a white man who is talking about people who are not white so and he's in the 1910 so like I'm pretty sure that had something to do with it. Ah. 57:04.72 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, very much So yes, like ah here's a here's a great setting for this. 57:08.19 Slade Yeah I'm ah I'm almost certain. Yeah exactly I'm I'm almost certain that laru the original Writer. Um. Yeah, he he's like I need something exotic Aha the Ottomans Okay, they strength that their royals Strangle each other I'm sure I could give them a death Palace and no one will think anything else of it fuck it. 57:19.69 Alex _ picklefactory There we go. 57:22.70 Jala Yeah I mean like in 1910 nobody was given a crap I mean when did the pulps start because that was another thing I was going to say is that like pulps start pretty quick after that if they weren't already going at that time. Oh really? Okay, then they were already going. So. 57:30.50 Alex _ picklefactory Um, yes, yeah. 57:32.62 Slade Um I think Pulps started turning up in the eighteen eighty s I think yeah yeah, it it depends on it depend on how you define Pulp It may be. There's there because before the pulp got going. You had essentially. 57:41.32 Jala This is like concurrent to pulp crap. So. 57:52.24 Slade You know broad leaf paphlets which were like you know little pamphlets that were basically like hey here's like you know here's you know a couple cents and you get a little story. You can read for the dike. 58:01.78 Alex _ picklefactory I mean it feeds right back into the whole Poe connection to right? he would he would write that kind of gothic war stuff of yeah. 58:04.41 Slade Yeah, Poe Poe is also the same way. Yeah, a lot a lot of Poe's stories originate on originated as little broad leafs you could buy and just you know read a little thing and then move on with your day. 58:12.33 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 58:14.67 Alex _ picklefactory What masks of the red death in 2 parts. You know the in the first half you the visitor arrives the second half everyone dies right? Like yeah. 58:19.14 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much but like yeah, you're right? The the timing for that I was thinking more like the horror pulp stuff that you know, but that that comes a little bit later. But yeah, like there there was some form of pulp going on anyway. 58:38.24 Jala Um, at that time So this is kind of part and parcel of that kind of air and it was also serialized as well before it was published as a book. So um. 58:48.32 Slade I actually didn't know that I didn't know it was I thought I was I didn't realize it was serialized before but I mean I guess it makes sense for that era a lot of things were ah so you I mean you know we we ah in a modern context. We often think of like Sherlock Holmes for example you've mentioned before. 58:52.54 Jala Yeah, pretty much everything was serialized felt like. 59:02.92 Slade As this one monolithic thing but reality is obviously the serialized and published over multiple issues. Yeah. 59:09.47 Alex _ picklefactory Yeah, in all kinds of places right in in different lengths you know, revised times glued together. Yeah I mean all that stuff is part of early twentieth century fiction too. Certainly not just like dickens and stuff but like you know all the sf authors you read that were. 59:26.32 Slade Yeah, they were all publishing magazines right? yeah. 59:29.11 Alex _ picklefactory Publishing in the 20 s and thirty s where where they would take the they would take I'm gonna take 5 stories and I'm gonna stitch them together and it's gonna be a novel and we'll just sell it. Yep. 59:33.53 Jala Yeah, yeah, well so um I have to talk about a couple of other things related to the Larue. So ah, first off my most recent reabsorption of the story. I was a little bit kinder to it than previous like I think I relistened to it and what was it June of this year or something like that and it was read by Ralph Kasham who is if you know elders scrolls oblivion. He was joffy. Brother Joffrey and then also all the breton males so he has a very specific way of talking and so anytime I read in the k novel mazenddaran I could only hear it in his voice with that cadence because he has that very specific case you know like I cannot pronounce it the way he does but like anyway. 01:00:20.35 Slade But I've played enough oblivion to remember good old Joffre. Ah. 01:00:23.20 Jala Yeah, so it's it's it was wild hearing the laroe novel read by Jorey Brother Joffy just having story time. So so so anyway, um. 01:00:37.26 Jala That was one thing I had to add because um narrators make a difference and even though it was really strange hearing it out of brother Joffrey's mouth um it did somehow add to the experience and I came away like okay, it's not not. You know like I don't hate it the way I used to I'm not like oh my god this is the best book ever. But. Don't hate it. So at least we're getting somewhere but the other thing I was going to say is that the very first time and every other time after that that I've read the larue. There's a couple of things that just blow my mind every time when we get to the torture room and he's got like here's a big torture room and it's got like trees and lions in in. 01:01:16.39 Jala What and in mirrors and it's hot and like what what are you talking about? ah. 01:01:17.27 Slade Um, yeah, it goes off the rails. 01:01:21.99 Alex _ picklefactory Um, it goes it goes. It has a very unreliable narrator kind of thing going on and he says like oh the count went nuts. You know he kind of like lost it first and then like and then I lost it and then I went into it's like okay. Like I guess like that that was really like the the low point of believability is that that he would get right? click. 01:01:38.60 Jala I don't well I mean wasn't it but it was definitely before that point though where the persian is talking to I think it's Raoul and he's just like. 01:01:51.88 Jala And Eric can do this and hold your hand up to the level of your eyes because the Punjab lost and you're like what what? What are you? What nonsense are in this like. 01:01:57.40 Slade Yeah, exactly yeah. 01:01:59.44 Alex _ picklefactory Right? right. 01:02:03.54 Jala 10 pages of just like daroga just going and then he can do this and he can do this thing too and then back in mazender run he did blah blah blah or sorry mazenda run like I got to say it with the. 01:02:17.81 Slade Um, ah that is gonna make me sigh exasperation I Really do I Really do now because knowing that it's narrated by him I just I really want to hear that. 01:02:19.46 Jala You got to hear that audio book. It's great if you just like hear the audio book version Ralph Kosham I'm telling you. so so yeah so Eric Eric was in Persia in the k novel and making. Mirror rooms and death palaces and stuff and then like the shah tells deroga. You're the best person for the job because he he's sly and he won't expect you I want you to go kill him. Yeah, you're his friend go kill him and so um. 01:02:51.32 Slade Um, you're his friend. Basically. 01:02:57.34 Jala Instead of killing him. He's like you've got to go Eric I'm going to try to do my best to to put them off your trail by and you know, um, does his best but still ends up serving jail time and is put out of commission and out of the story for a while as a result so after that. Eric Flees and then goes back to France and goes actually back to his home which I had forgotten until I reread it I forgot that he went home. He went back to his original house to go find his mom and see what was going on with her or like you know she he actually expected that she had left. And that his house was um and basically taken over by vagrants because there was evidence of people living there and he's like surely she's not still there. Well um, turns out that she had died just a few days earlier right before he came home and so he never got to see her again or whatever. But then he's like but why was she here and um, his mom's friend says she he's like well didn't she marry the doctor and go off and have children and she says no after you left she was heartbroken and she. Kept all of your things and she thought of you every day and she stayed alone in this house until she died. So that's. 01:04:15.46 Slade Yeah, very much. Yeah, and yeah, part of me really wonders like you know was it her own guilt that trapped her there or was it some some lingering effect of essentially Eric's enchantment 01:04:28.66 Jala Yeah I mean there's not really a way to know, but there is 1 theme that is very true to this book literally everything Eric tries to do like it might be okay for a while sometimes in certain instances like when he's building stuff like he's an architect and everything. But then. It all goes to shit at some point and everything blows up and turns into a tragedy whenever he's involved. It's like you know he left so that she could be happy and free and she remained you know enslaved to him for the rest of her life more or less so and then after that happens he's like. I wanted to do an opera house you know and she had wanted an opera house at this particular location and I think I'm going to sign up for the grand prix to see if I can get the commission for the opera house in Paris. 01:05:21.50 Jala Only to find out in a in a newspaper that somebody else already got the commission and everything was over with and he was too late for that too. So then he goes to Paris and he's like I'm going to stubbornly try to get my way anyway and he discusses everything with garniier who is the. Guy who has the the architect who has the commission for the opera house and garnia is a stand-up. Dude he doesn't want to take a bribe but Eric ends up going to sign himself up as a contractor and the agreement is he will be the contractor. He will have a lot of say in what's going on. Ah. In Return Eric who has all of these jeweluls and all of this money from his time in Persia will fund stuff once the government because is a government job once the government stops stops giving him money for it. So in the middle of all that there is the revolution. There is war and. You know? Yeah, exactly all of that stuff happens and Eric is hanging out because Eric being the contractor is able to also work himself on the site and he himself is building all of his underground layer and stuff. He's already planning that and so he just. 01:06:22.80 Alex _ picklefactory Let's comunards. 01:06:38.90 Alex _ picklefactory Ah, Eric you're in charge of the underground lake in the look. 01:06:39.67 Jala Yeah, well they they struck water. They struck part of the sin and they had to create like an you know like a way to kind of contain it because to try to dry it out and drain it would have been like more than what they could handle and they've already got the site. They've already started you know excavating. They didn't have a choice and that lake is there because of. Reasons anyway, it's explained and um so while all the war and the revolution and stuff happens Eric is just holed up in his underground layer because they've already put the foundation and they're you know, partially done on the building at this point so he's underground and he's. Fine and then eventually like 15 years pass of working on this building having it be interrupted by the changing of the government and then um, you know the war and this and that and the other eventually they finally finish it Eric has no more money left. And garniier goes off to go be architecture dude over there. Um, and then Eric's like I have no more creative drive after working on this for 15 years I am exhausted of the world of man I hate everybody I'm going to live down here in this little. Cavern that I've created and I'm going to decorate it like it's a funeral parlor I'm going to have morning candles and those are going to be my lights I'm going to sleep in a coffin. 01:08:09.72 Jala The whole mind. Yeah, he's like I'm gonna this is because like he had had a joke the way that it's written by k he had had a joke with Garia about because Garia is like you know you keep working so much. Everybody's worried that you're going to work yourself to death and then he's like you know like. 01:08:10.16 Slade Ah, he goes the whole nine yards. 01:08:10.69 Alex _ picklefactory Um, just call it. Yeah, just call me the opera ghost. 01:08:28.98 Jala Oh you mean like they'd be relieved if I died or whatever and then garniier's like you know don't make this building your tomb and so he took that and went oh what a brilliant idea I think I shall actually. 01:08:41.27 Slade Ah, you, you're an actual genius Well done I Shall the I split this at once. 01:08:44.10 Jala Yeah, so then he decides he's going to go ahead and do the thing so he does the thing and in rolls with it. 01:08:52.17 Alex _ picklefactory Next door next door have a room full of mirrors and next door to that. It's going to be a totally normal living room and that's just the way we do it down here I'm an architect. 01:08:57.29 Jala Yeah, yup, yep, and oh I forgot to mention he'd already become addicted to opium and then after opium he found morphine and so he's a morphine addict used to be an opium addict so he's got more in common with Sherlock Holmes than 1 might imagine initially. 01:09:16.44 Jala And he's long and gangly and knows how to do everything and anyway so he's a morphine addict as well. So that's a thing that is decaying him further as he continues to live. Um so the opera house gets finished and he decides that um. He he has like 1 little dude who has been his lackey since I don't know twenty years ago at this point and you know this guy is kind of chained to him because he has a family with like 9 children or something like that and he needs to put all of them through you know college and whatever. And so Eric provides very well for him in exchange for this guy going and obtaining whatever sundries he wants and also a supply of morphine and whatever so he tells this dude I need you to be my link to the world I don't actually want to go out and go do shopping so you know you being a personal shopper. 01:10:13.37 Jala I'll pay you ten thousand francs a month. Well then as you's sitting there thinking about it. He's like you know I don't actually have enough money to give him ten thousand francs a month indefinitely. Um I need to figure out what I'm going to do and then he's like well I need to have the very best clothes that are hand tailored. 01:10:32.85 Jala And I have to have the best books on my shelves. So I can't possibly live on anything less than ten thousand francs a month myself and so he decides on ah a bill for the opera house of Twenty Thousand francs and it's because of his very lavish and expensive tastes thanks to living in Persia. And also the fact that he has his little lackey buddy that he is trying to put this guy's kids through school and everything because he feels bad that this guy is kind of broken because he has been a victim of er and Eric's voice for the last twenty years so so that's how. 01:11:04.81 Slade Also I I feel like we should clarify by the way because we keep doing this. We keep jumping back between the ottomans and Persia the 2 are completely different. 01:11:07.90 Alex _ picklefactory I Love it. 01:11:14.42 Jala Um, well in the k book isn't it Persia it they don't say ottomans they say Persia yeah they say Persia it it doesn't say ottomans it says Persia. 01:11:19.78 Slade Do they I don't remember out there up out the check. Okay, then that was my bad earlier when I said ottomans let to the per if it is the perss was the perss because Alex and I both set have to have have jump backward towards you those 2 So. 01:11:36.24 Alex _ picklefactory Well I mean it it has that context of like the imperial role of of a centralized muslim empire right? Yeah I mean they would probably call the musclesmans or something at that time because they didn't know any better right. 01:11:40.30 Slade Yeah, that's fair. 01:11:43.90 Jala Yeah I mean like ah the daroga is called the Persian yeah. 01:11:51.37 Slade Ah I you're bringing it up again. You know you know early early twentieth century white dude he'd probably call everyone. He'd probably call everyone who was muslim a persian he wouldn't know the difference. 01:11:55.46 Alex _ picklefactory Like I don't I don't know rights exactly right? Well I mean he would been like well I mean he may have known the difference between Persian and arab right? That would have been a distinction. They're both muslims. 01:12:06.38 Slade Maybe yeah I don't know I'm I I don't know how much credit to give him you might know the difference. 01:12:15.14 Alex _ picklefactory Well, that's true. Yeah I'm just saying that would have been the I'm just saying I think that would have been in distinction at the time but I have no idea whether he was making it or not like yeah yeah, yeah. 01:12:20.88 Jala Yeah, well well either way whoever they are um I in the k book it is persian it is Persia it is persian so um, that's that's who it is in the kbook. So. 01:12:27.75 Slade Fair. 01:12:34.66 Alex _ picklefactory I mean I just I just love it because in the in the larue part. All of this is just like you know the the managers have to give him twenty Thousand francs and it's this whole setup for this like magician business that happens like the slight a hand in the trapdoors and he's everywhere and he's nowhere and. 01:12:54.48 Alex _ picklefactory Is the envelope full or not and all this stuff is like what is this about? Oh he's like the general master of every kind of performance right? like 1 part of that is stage magic right? Another part is singing. Another part is right like he he does it all? Yes vitro quiz him. 01:13:04.68 Jala Um, ventriloquism and pay being able being able to pick pockets and and put stuff into pockets and. 01:13:13.26 Alex _ picklefactory Right? doing like doing stage magic right? But also like like you know making the set what he wants it to be right? like he has an entire you know he he very carefully manages the stage for all of the confrontations that he has in and the novel too right? like here's my torture room full of mirrors here's my. 01:13:32.98 Alex _ picklefactory You know pretend domestic room that I'm going to take Christine to right? He has ah like he's the he's presented in this way that makes him you know the master of all the stuff of like manipulating what everyone around him sees right? The persian is the only one that can penetrate all the the flimflam and the. 01:13:48.34 Slade Yeah, the the persian very much is honestly the the closest thing to a true friend that Eric ever really has in his life to be honest, barring the dog obviously. 01:13:52.41 Alex _ picklefactory Illusions that he's putting out. 01:13:58.77 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, so and the thing about it is there is a part where um, he is talking to Christine Eric is talking to Christine in the k novel and i. 01:14:15.84 Jala She's talking about oh well not I don't remember exactly I think she had seen his face or something and then he puts the mask back on and then you know they were having a conversation about real you know real things versus imaginary things and she was talking in terms of like. Her father built up all of these castles in the air for her and then died and left her and she's basically this like kind of broken person who's not really one ah hundred percent you know operating in the same realm as anybody else, you know? and um. 01:14:50.94 Jala Kind of disillusioned because she's used to those illusions if you will and so there is a point where Eric is like you might find some of those illusions acceptable and was like kind of hopeful because he's like I would really like to not have to show you my face because I don't want to show anybody my face but I would like to you know. Um, present something to you. You know? So um and. 01:15:14.58 Slade It's um, yeah, it's very much a Taylor -made situation for him where he's like oh you you like to you like illusions you like you know fantasy I can do this. 01:15:23.36 Jala Yeah, and he kind of goes back and forth in the K novel because like it does actually cover. Um in relatively brief terms compared to the rest of the book. What's going on during the actual larue novel. 01:15:39.20 Jala And so um, you get to see Eric and he's having all these internal feelings of like I'm old enough to be your father I shouldn't be doing like what no bad and then he's like but I kind of like I want to mentor her and I want to guide her but I'm also in love with her because I I only have one type. 01:15:58.43 Jala You know and that's my type you know in in that kind of a thing and um at one point or another he even um, says to Raul like take care of my child and at first it reads like he's talking about Christine until you find out that no actually. He ends up having a child with Christine. So um, so that was that was pretty good. Um, but then too Christine you get to see a little bit more inside her head and you get to see how she really is like a broken toy and like there is a point where Eric is reflecting on it and reflecting on her and going you know what. 01:16:34.70 Jala You know the vicom deangi has like ah a natural right to go after her and want to be with her but I don't think he realizes what the prize is here because she's broken She was broken when I found her. She's going to keep being broken and fragile and she's going to need a lot more than what. You know anybody else will need and this is going to be like a lifetime commitment of trying to cope with her needing to be fathered as much as loved you know, like romantic. Loved. 01:17:08.48 Slade There's very much a case of like he's looking at role going you see the pretty woman I see the broken I see the broken one. 01:17:13.30 Jala Yeah, yeah, and Christine is shown to actually love Eric and actually love raul in different ways you know to different degrees and her relationship with Eric is super like you know he has the power over her with the voice and all of that. But also she swept up into the illusions because she was predisposed to that because of the damage from her father. There's like a lot of family related trauma really that goes on in here. It is until it gets kind of healed at the very end where the father is like. 01:17:43.42 Slade It's kind of an overarching theme for that entire thing. 01:17:45.42 Alex _ picklefactory Ah, indeed. 01:17:50.82 Jala You know, letting the sun be free and the sun is like very good and and all of that like it's all kind of rectified at the end but like everything along the way is tragedy. So oh yeah. 01:18:02.31 Alex _ picklefactory I Really I Really want to finish reading this now the way that you put it and then I and then I want like yeah. 01:18:05.11 Slade Ah, yeah, the K The K novel is very much worth finishing. It's it's ah it's a grand ride and like I said the characters every character from the from the ah. 01:18:15.39 Slade You know the the most minor one to the most to the degree The most grandiose one is a treat to interact with as a reader. 01:18:26.13 Alex _ picklefactory Ah, it really felt like I would say I would have said prior to this podcast that it was kind of it seemed like in ah like a second half to the story. It really seems to have more enveloped it in a way that is pretty interesting. You know I'm saying like it. It really kind of. 01:18:42.27 Alex _ picklefactory But proceeds in and and compliments it in a way that is that I kind of want to do and then I would like to see like the revisionist version you know like Raoul was writes or something like that that sounds awesome I would like to see the entire range of everything that sounds amazing. 01:18:48.19 Jala Well there is. 01:18:49.31 Slade I Think that has been addressed in a few different times. 01:18:56.70 Jala Well there is an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical called love never dies which I did watch like in a theater and um it was released in 2010 I believe it is. 01:19:11.72 Jala Based on more or less the last little tidbit of the k novel in that Eric and Christine have a child and Christine gets married to Raul everything after that changes because they like Raul is a gambler and a drunkard and he. 01:19:30.18 Jala Ah, gambles away all of his money and they go to America to start over fresh and she I don't know she gets into Baudeville or something like that is real wacky and then like um, you know ends up like Eric is still alive somehow in this and then like ah ends up meeting his son but then get shot by Raul. 01:19:39.20 Alex _ picklefactory Awesome. 01:19:50.00 Jala And I don't know it's a whole weird. Yeah, no, it's not. It's not. 01:19:52.62 Slade It's a thing. 01:19:53.50 Alex _ picklefactory I mean I I could totally go for that because he like the the death scene in Waru is not convincing to me. 01:19:58.46 Slade And look. That's the biggest contrast between k and La Rue is that k definitively the deal declares Eric to have died whereas. Yeah yeah. 01:20:08.49 Jala There Eric got got screwed to death he was dying and then Christine came and then the persians's like you don't want to go in there Raoul. He's she the per like raowell shows up and he's like where's my my woman and then persians' like um, you don't want to go in their rowel. They're locked in there. 01:20:14.67 Slade Quite literally she came it. 01:20:25.10 Jala By themselves leave them alone. Don't Ah why? what? what were they doing right before you left and then the you know the persians like kissing and then rows like Wow in Persians like well here's the thing. 01:20:41.58 Jala If you really love Christine you have to love her even after this and knowing what you do and whatever and you know you also have to raise Eric's child by the way have fun. You know so well I mean the thing is is that at the end of the book Raul actually really loves Charles and. 01:21:00.10 Jala Is like he's going to. He's going to carry on the shang yin name and no one's ever going to know and that's fine. He like he's indispensable. He's wonderful. You know this is your legacy Eric I wish I could talk to you Eric and tell you. 01:21:10.70 Slade Yeah, like yeah, all all things aside like in a weird way. Um, like you know there's there's that there's a frequent joke about you know, various characters and triangles in media because they should be molecules or they are a molecule. This is a really strange molecule where it's like if Eric had survived this might have actually worked out for all. 01:21:32.72 Jala Um, yeah I'm mean you know, but the by the way the the way Thaty had written it. He was already basically dying because of all of his various problems from morphine and everything at that point. So. 01:21:45.75 Slade Yeah, and that's and that's one of the things I was talking about the very start of all this with um, you know we often see the phantom especially since the 90 s with Anne Rice and everything we see the phantom as this dashing you know, kind of antihero almost ah whereas with Kay. It's very much she she's like no no, he is. This is the end of the line for this man he has he has worn himself thin and even when he tries to fight Raul he's kind of falling on himself because his body just can't take it anymore. 01:22:11.68 Jala Well in the thing about it too is that in the larue. It's just like what he died of a broken heart like I know that's a thing but also boy that's real like unconvincing. So I mean like you know yes he could he could but like. 01:22:30.18 Jala It's a lot more practical to say he died of a broken heart and morphine. You know. 01:22:34.98 Slade Yeah, ah too much morphine too much sex apparently and emotional damage. 01:22:40.52 Jala Ah, yeah, right, right? So but um, yeah, it is. It is interesting though because throughout the entire book. There's also this undercurrent of his like sexual frustration because he has. It's not like he's without desires. But at the same time he has zero way to actually you know express that desire to anyone effectively because the only people and I think somebody actually tells him this at one point The only people who would be interested in him are people who want him as a curiosity just because they have like weird fetishes. So. 01:23:17.62 Slade What's literally his first sexual experiences with the you know the slave the the his enslaver at the start of the store when he's like 13 or whatever it is. Um I think yeah, it literally a matter of well I can fuck you because I have all the power. It's like ah. 01:23:31.69 Slade His first sexual fear ends is literally just a continuation of his abuse. 01:23:32.66 Jala And so like that's just a lot and that's probably also another reason why because of all the abuse he suffered the reason why number 1 he's obsessed with having control of things. But also why his person that he wants you know that he is interested in his type. Is somebody who is controllable malleable and like you know, childlike that you know he can have more control over instead of the other way around like they can't abuse him he can you know, um, be fair, minded and whatever and potentially have like a nice relationship with them because they aren't. 01:24:11.55 Jala You know, um, powerful in a way that is going to ah do harm to him. Yeah, and I mean like in every relationship that he has well. 01:24:15.13 Slade He very much has the control in the relationship which to him is a good thing because it prevents him from being hurt. 01:24:25.67 Slade No, no. But I'm I'm not I'm not trying to justify it I'm saying that's how his mind works fair. Yeah yeah I mean. 01:24:28.19 Alex _ picklefactory Well that isn't the way that that works like ah sure, No no, but like it doesn't even work for him. He winds up hurt very much like yeah he miscalculated. Yeah. 01:24:30.41 Jala No. Oh yeah, Well I mean there are short parts. Yeah, there are short parts in the book where he has a situation where someone else is all too willing to give up their decisions and they're whatever to him, let him take care of it because he's very good at doing that. And codependent as heck like he's a Code-pendency Monster is what he is if you want to talk about him being a monster in any way. It's codependence that he is a monster. He just wants everyone to be dependent on him and I'll take care of everything and they they can't possibly leave me because they need me too much. 01:25:09.83 Slade Yeah, he he seeks their affection through dependency. 01:25:11.56 Jala And that's yeah, yeah, and that's that's really like and you could also say that that's exactly the reason why he likes his animals too. They don't judge him but also they're dependent on him so and and they don't challenge him. So so yeah. 01:25:29.69 Jala But like it it goes into the psychology in such a way that it's very convincing but it's also you have a lot more affection for all of the characters like I like Rawul so much better in the k than I do the original or basically any other version I've seen him. 01:25:44.23 Slade Yeah rolls honestly kind of ah you know, no, he's not he he he the k is the only case where I can think of where he's actually portrayed as sympathetic and also being sympathetic towards Christine um. 01:25:49.45 Alex _ picklefactory He's not a sympathetic character in larue. 01:25:59.68 Jala Um, and eventually even to Eric I mean you know. 01:26:01.28 Slade Yeah, even to Eric yeah yeah, and Eric's child Charles. Um in every other medium I've seen him and he's always he's incredibly capricious. Yeah, it's very much a case of you know Christine is a fancy bole effectively and whereas k gives him a much. 01:26:18.60 Slade Bigger chance to kind of flesh that out and explain like no, there's actual genuine affection here. He's not a horrible human being. 01:26:25.14 Jala Oh you know what? I just thought about something so Raoul. 01:26:29.10 Alex _ picklefactory He didn't he didn't seem horrible to be in Larue he just seemed like like callow right? like comess off as he's the guy who is in over his head in a way that he can't even understand for the entire time you know what to mean? yeah. 01:26:32.27 Slade Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. 01:26:40.24 Jala So the thing I had to say though, is I just realized this: Raoul's parents died all he has is an older brother who is very very overindulgent and lets him do whatever he wants. 01:26:54.60 Slade Oh no. 01:26:55.74 Jala Raoul is the spoiled little child just like Madeleine. So if they really had survived to be a polycule I mean like hey-- Somebody wrote that! Somebody wrote it I guarantee you somebody wrote that. 01:27:01.81 Slade Oh no. 01:27:05.23 Alex _ picklefactory Oh no. 01:27:09.30 Slade Ah, oh dear. Yeah I'm certain there's something online somewhere. Oh no or or if not then we just inspired it. 01:27:13.71 Jala And you know another well and then um, another thing I wanted to add is that in the k eric is always doing stuff where he's like making gadgets and in. You know he's already created electrical apparatus before it was like widely used independently on his own doing all of this and so there's a point where Christine is yeah and there's a point where Christine is looking at everything and um, she's like you know you really are like ah a man of the future and I'm just like. 01:27:31.26 Slade I Forgot about that. 01:27:44.82 Jala Ah, somebody hasn't you know I haven't seen a Phantom in the future before but you know what he would be a scientist in a future is like a scientist artist musician whatever like add scientist in there to all of the rest of the his pedigree. You know. 01:27:56.12 Slade Oh yeah, no yeah, the the Phantom story if someone wanted to and obviously no one's I don't think anyone's done this yet that I know of could easily be translated into a modern setting. You know, look at how much Vr is taking off imagine applying you know, but not not just Vr, but also altered reality Ar. You know you could easily apply that sort of thing to a Phantom story and create a modern version of the Phantom who is every bit as enchanting as the original. 01:28:17.80 Jala Oh yeah, yeah, and who like maybe he is some some dark critter person somewhere and like his illusions are all in his online presentation or his Vr presentation or whatever. So yeah, you could You could go at a lot of different directions with this. 01:28:38.81 Alex _ picklefactory It really is the or the origin of kind of like the illusionist mastermind villain right? like he's the he's the original One of those that I can think of yeah maybe yeah yeah. 01:28:46.41 Slade I mean I'm sure if we dug into like you know if if we if we delved into folklore I'm sure we'd find plenty of other examples but but in terms of in but in terms of our modern influences. He's definitely the most well known. 01:28:54.90 Jala Nothing's ever original I know. 01:28:56.54 Alex _ picklefactory But but the one that has like a. Right. 01:29:03.47 Slade For what we you know? I mean he even like I said even in a lot of ways he serves as an archetype for what we perceived to be a vampire a vampire like character. He is very much an origin point for a lot of our darker more more you know like almost like ah ah. 01:29:20.30 Slade Like dark deviant kind of mastermind characters. 01:29:22.87 Alex _ picklefactory Well, he's he's like he's like a joker like the joke you right? because he's the he's the guy who goes ahead and just fills the basement with gunpowder just in case he needs to go everyone up right? like. 01:29:30.13 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, oh and I have to say so I have to say though slate like when I was reading and he's talking to Christine his sense of dry sarcasm. Just so echoes you that I could just hear your voice talking about. 01:29:46.78 Jala You know, like where where she's like you know he he made a comment and you know insinuated that he had blown up the chandelier and then she's like what you did that and he's like well the chandelier wasn't going to just jump off the wall by itself now was it just? ah. 01:30:00.77 Slade Should I be offended or complimented by this comparison I can't tell. 01:30:05.99 Jala It's great. It's great. It's definitely sounds like you though, go back and read those parts where he's like getting sarcastic with Christine and you'll hear it. You'll hear I heard your voice. Yeah, it is it is so 01:30:15.44 Slade Ah, the oh God that I mean that that is my kind of humor I mean yeah. 01:30:21.69 Jala Well anyway, we're reaching our our deadline we're going to turn into a pumpkin here and that's also apropos of Halloween so that's cool. Yeah, well let's do some wrap up thoughts about like laroe and Kay and the whatever phantom influence overall so Alex. 01:30:27.48 Slade I Do have pumpkins to carve. 01:30:40.95 Jala Let me know tell me tell us what are your thoughts about Larue's phantom 01:30:47.80 Alex _ picklefactory Um, well I I super enjoyed the chance to read something that had some proper gothic horror in it which is what the that's the kind of character. The Phantom is. 01:31:01.22 Alex _ picklefactory That's that's what he's properly inhabiting but what I was surprised at how much other stuff that he brought in right in terms of the I'm a Journalist I'm a you know I'm a a music writer I'm like all the you know I'm a detective in this you know I have a a sherlock holmes figure in this story too. 01:31:20.14 Alex _ picklefactory Like I'm just going to bring this all together and it really feels like that is what so is so irresistible about that is ah but what made it breakthrough is a work of popular fiction right? in the way that what it it really kind of just put it into the canon of the kind of stuff like ah. 01:31:39.11 Alex _ picklefactory You know, like other french stuff right? that that kind of transcends boundaries in that way or that has this sprightly popular you know, entertaining quality to it like you know through musketeers and and all the zola stuff of the nineteenth century and it's like oh I've I've updated this thing for. More modern setting the Paris Opera you know and a more you know a dramatic telling with you know, all kinds of scary stuff in it and like that was enough to sell the silent movie to me as well. I think that is absolutely worth watching. 01:32:17.80 Alex _ picklefactory So much stuff in there that is that is just absolutely striking to look at you could go get it off of archive.org I think and even though it's kind of you know one percent is wordy is the novel like in terms of the mood that it sets in the way that you can kind of see. The ballerinas and the you know the the prima Donna and the you know the the stuffed searchts of the managers you know getting flummoxed by you know Eric throwing envelopes in from off you know off screen and stuff. It's absolutely wonderful like ah it was great. I love to I love to see something that was such a effective mixture of genres at a time when nobody had that in mind right? It was just whatever kind of broke through to capture. Everyone's imagination and this is just one of those things that has stuck around forever right? and I've I've seen the the modern musical but I saw it as a teenager. 01:33:12.20 Alex _ picklefactory And I barely remember it but even as a work of fiction that is one hundred years old plus it's it's worth it and I totally intend to read the the k novel just because it sounds fascinating. Ah. 01:33:16.46 Jala Yeah, it it is really worth a read, especially if you enjoyed any any version of Phantom you know, like if if you've like you know, watched the Lan Cheney or if you watched the musical. 01:33:34.44 Jala Or the musical movie version or if you read the original Larun you like that then you should definitely check out the K novel. 01:33:43.88 Alex _ picklefactory He's he's a Eric is a real antihero archetype at a way that just a glance at him will resonate to you right? No matter what time you happen to be in as long as it's after Juan Cheney and wiru. 01:33:57.51 Jala For sure. So Slade how about you? What are some wrap up thoughts about phantom phantom by Susan K Phantom the original phantom other versions. 01:34:00.85 Alex _ picklefactory You'll it'll be recognizable. Yeah. 01:34:11.57 Slade Well I think I completely with what Alex is saying just how the original phantom one of the reasons why that story has survived is because it is such an effective blending of different genres. Um, you know all the different genres of that time kind of got crammed together in this in a very unique way that isn't you know. Least not in popular fiction hasn't really survived in other form and other pieces from that time. Um, and I love Kay is revisiting of it. You know the fact that she goes in there looks at it and goes hey we have a story here but it's kind of bare bones in parts. What if we actually gave all this. 01:34:48.10 Slade You know detail what if we went in there and gave it a motion. What if we gave it you know flesh and she does a wonderful job of executing that you know that mission and and does so in a way that keeps the phantom himself. Very much that sort of semi-monstrous form that ghoulish form that he was originally intended to have that we've kind of lost since the 90 s especially where he's become more of you know the dark hot pretty boy who you know has some scarring on him. Um, and I ah. Door just how much especially with Kay and also the original laru how dark it is like it never really should neither 1 of them really shy away into that. It's like yes, the phantom has his beauty to him his voice especially but he is still a killer he is still some yeah exactly like yeah, it's just you know. 01:35:37.50 Alex _ picklefactory He had no problem murdering that guy at the beginning of the nautilus. Yes. 01:35:39.60 Slade The the the ah the callous disregard for life there combined with the absolutely you know the beauty of his character his um, his talents. We'll say is a really fun and just fascinating blending of the. Diotomy of it. They come of Yin and yang almost of this is you know he has these. He's wonderfully talented but at the same time is incredibly callous towards the frailty of life. 01:36:08.19 Jala And really after rereading the phantom book again. Ah it makes me want to go find the other couple of things that Susan Kay wrote just to see how those are treated because she really. Not just digs into the material of Larue. But then you know digs into very very deeply into the psychologies of the characters and gives them breathes life into them in such a way that I haven't ever seen anyone who picks up a kind of sparse ah book. You know like sparsely described set of characters or a shallowly described set of characters and yeah, um. 01:36:48.95 Alex _ picklefactory It's so it's like the epilogue seriously and it's just like this is the outline for the story and it was incredible to to see what she was doing with it. Yeah. 01:36:51.81 Slade Yeah, no Susan Especially with this this this book. Specifically it's essentially I mean if we if if if you really want to do it. Ah you know, break it down to its core. It's basically just a glorified fan fiction but it is so masterfully done. That it just stands on its own both alongside and separate from the original. 01:37:11.41 Jala So much so that it's been considered like I've said at the top a Phantom cannon by fans of the phantom. 01:37:17.64 Slade Yeah, which is exactly why you know it's kind of the highest compliment you can get as someone who is you know if you're taking a setting. That's not yours characters that aren't yours and revisiting when fleshing them out. That's that's you know, just from personal experience. Especially. That is the highest compliment you can get from your readership to say that like this is part of the lore. 01:37:34.91 Jala And it's really surprising to me that they just never did a reprint. They never even did an ebook version of it like I would have thought they would have done like an official ebook at least but. 01:37:44.83 Slade For whatever reason Kay's writing is really hard to find I remember when you first when when when I first read the phantom I when I actually went to go find more of her work. She's a wonderful writer. She I don't I don't know if she just never published her stuff or if she only did a couple books but she did. There's not a lot of stuff from her available. And none of it's in print. 01:38:05.54 Jala Yeah I want to say that somewhere like in Sweden or something. Um the phantom book was only ever published once and never again and so it's extremely hard to find ah over in certain countries. Especially like if you think it's hard to find here. But. 01:38:19.91 Slade Right? Good luck finding it in like Japan or Switzerland or something. Yeah. 01:38:22.33 Jala You know? So yeah, yeah, so yeah, pretty much it. Yeah yeah, so that's that's unfortunate. So I don't know maybe I'll dig up a link to it or something and then put it in the show notes. So that way folks can. 01:38:28.66 Alex _ picklefactory Fallen right? out of the publishing world. It's just shame should definitely have a ebook out there I agree. 01:38:41.74 Jala Get a hold of an e version at the very least although I do well the money's not even going to go to the author at this point anyway because it's all used versions. So um, yeah I'll go ahead and put an ebook link. Also on the note of the Lon Cheney movie I don't remember if I said this earlier I do not believe I did on the actual episode proper. Ah we will be covering on fireart media on the Monster Dear Monster Podcast we will be talking about the lanchaney phantom of the opera as well as the Robert England phantom horror film from the 80 s and then also there's um, yeah I know and then there's also a chinese film that I don't know when it was released and I'm not sure if it is horror or not if it is then it will also make it appearance on there that is some kind of rendition of phantom as well. 01:39:16.76 Slade Alex laughs enjoyed. 01:39:18.78 Alex _ picklefactory Ah, incredible, delightful. 01:39:33.51 Jala Ah, we will be covering that at some point in the future monster dear monsters schedule kind of goes wherever it wants so sometime keep an eye out ah in the meantime though where can folks find you Alex. Anywhere. Can they find you on the internet and if not what do you want to plug. 01:39:55.97 Alex _ picklefactory Ah I don't think I mean Java's Discord probably if you want to if you want to plug anything I would plug ah alzabo soup which is my favorite literary analysis podcast which looks at Gene Wolf novels 01:40:12.63 Alex _ picklefactory And other things in between and I've been a fan of theirs for 5 years and I think about them whenever I talk books with you on this one. So. 01:40:17.23 Jala Cool, cool, sounds cool and neat and Slade where can people find you on the internet. 01:40:26.45 Slade Ah I'm pretty easy to find if you're on deviiantard you can find me as sling blade 87 if you're on Instagram or Tiktok. It's granite ghost and on Twitter it's just the slate. It's pretty easy to find me. 01:40:39.12 Jala You know, branding man, you got to get branding going because like I'm @jalachan in all the places including jalachan.place where this podcast can be found. 01:40:48.63 Slade I am well aware and I just don't bother I'm not trying to brand myself I'm just I just exist on the internet. At this point if I say I'll I'll I'll consult you should I decide to reach read up my branding game. 01:41:04.49 Jala That's okay, luckily for everybody listening I will have links to things in the show notes as usual. So on that note that is all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/Jala. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]