[Show Intro]
Jala
Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! 
Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here!

[Intro music]

00:00.00
Jala & Dave
Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Dave (he/him) and Moxie (they/them)! Hi how you doing hey it's good to be back. Also moxie's here.

00:13.88
Moxie!
I'm doing yeah doing doing pretty good. Ah I'm sufficiently hopped up on caffeine to record so you know that's very important.

00:25.88
Jala & Dave
Oh yes, this is like um I had what was it a twenty ounce coffee at Summer Moon our favorite coffee place and then also had like a gigantic mug earlier in the day it has been a rough weekend. You might hear it in my voice a little bit but some we are here and we are recording today. About an important topic muscle dysmorphia or skinny phobia. Ah so they're they're a little bit different. We'll we'll get more into it in a second. But um, it's basically when folks usually a assign male at birth individuals because of societal pressures feel like.

01:03.31
Jala & Dave
Ah, they are too small. They don't have enough muscle or whatever and so they are doing everything that they can to then bulk up or you know get the the kind of physique that is expected of them in society. So that's the topic for today. Obviously I'm not a design male at birth. And for anybody who's seen me. That's not my issue so I'm here for the academic part only I will be ah tossing the experiential to the other folks on the show today. But before we get into all of that I wanted to give both of you the customary time in the beginning to tell folks who you are what you do. So moxie you are with me on the level podcast from Duckfeed Tv

01:45.70
Moxie!
Yep, yeah, ah so you know record ah weekly on that sorry I did not prepare for this part of the of.

01:52.90
Jala & Dave
It's Fine. It's a video game roundtable show where every week we talk about what we've been Playing. We do a multiplayer question and we bring some news Articles Maxie You've been doing that since like. Before the beginning of time like back when you were in college doing a radio show. So like it was under a different incarnation at that time but like ah this is the Forever show. So ah.

02:15.90
Moxie!
Oh yeah, it's been been quite a time.

02:19.44
Jala & Dave
Yeah, yeah, so that's your main thing and you guys can find that at thelevelpodcast.com and also Dave you're on fireart media network tell the folks what you do. Yeah, so I ah co-host the podcast monster dear monster where we take a look at monsters from their early folkloric inspirations to their current pop culture incarnations. So that's something like taking a look at the first books of Dracula or ah. Any mythical incarnations that led up to other vampires and then a slew of books and or movies over the last mm well almost one hundred years. Actually, it's been about 100 years for vampire movies and kind of showing where they started and where they are today. Yeah.

03:07.44
Moxie!
Nice have you have you guys? sorry sorry I'm I'm the master of off off topic have you guys watched white zombie. It's the the first zombie movie.

03:17.84
Jala & Dave
I have not I'm aware of it and it's not I've seen it, but it's not 1 we covered for the show.

03:25.35
Moxie!
It's actually it's actually quite good. Although it's kind of funny. They got Bella Lagosi to star. Its like the zombie master and the movie is straight up just if you do a find and replace on Dracula and replace zombie with or rather. Ah. Vampire with zombie.

03:45.97
Jala & Dave
Yeah, and that's that's kind of the case for a lot of Zombie recent films you could it crosses over between revenue schools and zombies those get conflated a lot. But um, yeah, that's I mean that's neither here nor there. But.

04:01.41
Jala & Dave
Yeah, check out the podcast sometime and we go over those differences that said monster dear.monster if folks want to go check that show out. You can also look it up of course on your podcasting platform of choice. So um, yeah, those are some of the things that these folks do. As for this show and also Dave's show you can support us on coffee k o hyphen f I dot com slash fireheart media. There are bonus things there. There's reviews. There's show notes with a whole bunch of interesting stuff in the the background there. We also have. Bonus shows such as cutting room floor the the last cutting room floor episode. Um, as of like the month before as of the time of this comes out because I haven't I haven't um, recorded the one that comes out for the month of March but the February episode was about. Ah, godzilla minus one and different cultural background information. That's important about that movie that was not covered during monster dear monsters episode about godziilla minus one. So there's that and if you do like horror content and zombies and things like that mentioning zombies we covered on my show. Bio zombie which was the first Hong Kong ah zombie movie. So it's very fun and cool and check out that episode that was our January episode media episode. So just a few episodes back as of the recording of this show.

05:30.88
Jala & Dave
So ah, yeah, without further ado though we will go ahead and get into talking about muscle dysmorphia and skinny phobia. So ah, academically speaking him muscle dysmorphia is a form of body dysmorphic disorder. We talked about body dysmorphia in more general terms. Last summer last summer. So a while now. Ah, but there's a body dysmorphia and gender Dysphoria episode. We're going to be covering some aspects that ah we we kind of talked about a little bit there like this ties into same subject matter. We also covered fat phobia and eating disorders. Last year so um I'm not going to spend too much time going into all of those things because we do have other content on the show discussing some of that. Ah, there will be some overlap though. So ah muscle dysmorphia is again a type of body dysmorphic disorder most often suffered by assigned male at birth individuals. It's noted as being preoccupied with being. Too small or not muscular enough even when at an average watty size due to a distorted perception of your own muscularity and you know this is similar and it's ah it's kind of um, the flip side of what we were talking about for the most part when it came to um. The body dysmorphia the first time around when we were talking about how fat phobia lends itself to especially assigned female at birth individuals feeling. Um, very bad about themselves for being too big. Well this is the the reverse this is feeling too small. So.

07:03.83
Jala & Dave
Um, as with other forms of dysmorphic disorder this involves obsession with perceived flaws involving constant mirror checking comparison to other people's musculatures um a lot of different things that these folks will do will be like um. Going to the gym excessively to work out like all the time to try to build muscle. Um, you know trying to to pack away enough nutrition to actually build that muscle. That's that's some of the challenge for folks who have like a certain type of of um you know body. Ah. But um, what's the word I'm looking for mm oh that's going to be an ectomorph. So yeah, um, yes there we go body metabolism that I'm I'm sorry I'm very tired today. So um, it's ah apparently also I did not know this until I was doing research for the show.

07:43.91
Moxie!
And like a metabolism that type of thing.

07:58.90
Jala & Dave
Sometimes it's called bigorexia or reverse Anorexia It's not an eating disorder but it's called something like that just to get the idea across to people that it involves you know like the the distorted body image as well as like a component that has to do with eating. And things like that. It's not like ah an eating disorder where you're you're um, necessarily putting your body in an unhealthy state by eating or not eating certain things. Um, but you know there is a nutritional component to it. So ah, those afflicted with muscle dysmorphia will spend. Lots of time trying to get larger but also leaner so they don't get the the dreaded skinny fat thing going on and um, trying to perfect their bodies and a lot of times. This also includes very strict diets um ah trying to pack away enough calories but get the calories. And the right proportions of course to to do everything as you might imagine people who have skinny phobia or muscle dysmorphia will not always but that they they will sometimes lean towards being bodybuilders or things like that the same thing happens with people who start out as fat phobic sometimes that will. Morph into doing something like getting into a sport like bodybuilding that it's not like um, that's ah like everybody in that that particular sport is like this but it's something that's kind of like the the.

09:31.51
Jala & Dave
Place that you're starting at when you have a a fat phobia or you have a skinny phobia lends itself to you know, leaning into that sport. Yeah I mean I would agree with that. That's ah ah, it's not the primary driver but that's a driver. Ah, for folks that have that predisposition to that condition. Ah, one of the ways that they are probably dealing with that is through all like that excessive exercise and just as a byproduct. Ah healthy or not that puts them in a position ah to. Do those kind of competitions and things where they that's what they're already doing and that's a it's a way to not only showcase your own like it's a validation technique because you're going to be getting your validation but you're getting external validation to support ah or shore Up. Any shortcomings. You may be feeling toward yourself. So if you're feeling that oh I'm too skinny but you have other folks going? Oh no, you're you're looking Good. You're doing great and that just that King Yeah, looking looking big King and ah getting that support and that validation. Helps Curb some of the negative aspects of the body dysmorphia and ah, there's just there's a sense of community you can get where you won't feel as isolated. Um in dealing with something if you know other folks are kind of dealing with the same thing even if it's not outspoken.

11:04.18
Moxie!
Yeah I think that's one of the things is that you know a lot of these things I'm guessing probably on fat phobia ah side you know a very similar thing might be like you know, getting in the distance running or something like that. Um, where you know.

11:23.79
Moxie!
There's probably a lot of people that you know get into these things and that allows them to you know, develop a sense of self-mastery and you know confidence and you know healthy lifestyle that sort of thing. And you know they're able to kind of overcome some of these problems on the other hand, there's probably people that get into it and it becomes like an obsession where it's not really fixing the ah right right.

11:53.36
Jala & Dave
It's not channeling it. Yeah or or these these different sports become not just a pathway but they can become a coping mechanism to deal with some other issue and just by virtue of someone.

12:04.66
Moxie!
Right.

12:09.63
Jala & Dave
Using that as their be all end all like their drive is channeled into this other activity. Um, and that can be constructively. You can get pretty good at something just by virtue of doing it all the time. 

12:24.83
Jala & Dave
And yeah, that does lend itself to you. You can overtrain or overwork or burn yourself out doing that and that's that's one of the myriad issues that come along I think with dysmorphia right? So um.

12:34.54
Moxie!
Sure totally.

12:40.50
Jala & Dave
Muscle dysmorphia can appear vain or self-absorbed. Ah but they are different from being narcissists because far from having an inflated self-image. They are often plagued by doubts inseccurities shame and low self-esteem. In addition, they are specifically focused on perfecting these muscles. Where the true narcissist needs to feel like they are better than everyone else in all respects so individuals with muscle dysmorphia can be at risk for suicidal behaviors when they lose hope that their muscles will ever look the way they quote unquote should and um, most of this this is kind of a paraphrase From. An article that I will be linking in the show notes if you guys want to check that Out. So um, yeah, this just like with fat phobia and eating disorders and things like that which we've spoken about before on the show. Ah, this too is another avenue. That will lead. You know that can potentially lead to some very dire ends. Um, if not ah if not coped you know if the person can't cope or if a person can't find their way to like a different kind of Mindset. Um, of course the thing about it is that like much like. Fat Phobia is pervasive throughout all of our society skinny phobia is also pervasive throughout all of our society and it's kind of one of those things where like um, it's more insidious in a lot of ways in my mind because everybody's aware that fat shaming is a thing but a lot of times.

14:11.97
Jala & Dave
You know like I haven't heard 1 thing about skinny shaming right? I haven't heard 1 thing about you know, um people you know oh leave that person alone because they are whatever size they are leave them alone like there's there's general hey maybe don't comment on people's you know appearances or or this that or the other but like.

14:31.55
Jala & Dave
You don't hear it in society like well maybe don't give that person shit for not having you know show muscles that look like Arnold's or something you know and that's you know, like that that this community this topic this is important and it's not being um, you know ah worked. What what's what on what I what I want to say ah people aren't advocating for change in the way that society responds to it the way that they are with fat phobia so there are instances though looking at that particular angle and going like generally people aren't going to go oh that.

15:10.15
Jala & Dave
That dude is tease too swoll. That's too many muscles. Um, that can be an aesthetic choice but that's not a social ah deviation where people are don't accept it. They just okay that they just must work out a lot. Ah the exceptions to that are folks who.

15:12.50
Moxie!
Right.

15:29.28
Jala & Dave
Resort to um, artificial means and I don't mean steroids but like something like injecting their muscles with oil using synthol ah to a point where it it becomes almost a parody of muscles because you you look sort of look you put balloons in your arms or wherever you're injecting this.

15:43.29
Moxie!
Sure, Yeah, yeah.

15:47.30
Jala & Dave
That does get some negative um rap because 1 thing is harmful and and also it's not matching much of anyone's aesthetics but a lot of times that results in folks that have put all all their time into the gym and they do all this workout but they're not seeing. Transformation that they feel is warranted given to the work that they're putting in so they're using these other enhancements one way or another or surgeries um to reach and a basically unattainable body ideal because we'll we'll get into it. But um, the the large. Thrust of why this exists in the first place is due to toxic masculinity and portrayals of the ideal body in media right? and then how in media it's marketed to everyone um that this is what you want in your um. You know, significant other or whatever you want if you have you know like um, someone who is a sign mail at birth as a partner you want that person to look like this and that's that's what media is trying to sell everyone and so what that does is then lead it to the dating scene being full of these people who have this expectation that is unrealistic. Um, you know that then we have to to deal with and so um, part of why I wanted to talk about that just in kind of general terms is because um, when it comes to the fat phobia and things like that. Yes fat phobia is is ah a thing that affects everyone but like when it comes to um, a sign of.

17:19.26
Jala & Dave
Female at Birth individuals and the dating scene and things like that. There's been so much like advocacy for undoing fat phobia and fat shaming and to accept people in their body types and things like that which is great. This is I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But like you know there's not equal equal weight put on. Undoing the damage of skinny phobia and muscle dysmorphia you know and so like you know the the people who are assigned female at Birth or you know whatever that have the fat phobia. Um, they are seeing ah you know like a more acceptance generally in society than they did before.. It's not like all of fat phobia goes away but like.

17:57.78
Jala & Dave
They ah there there is some progress being made there but there isn't you know that same equivalent respect. Ah you know given to the people who are suffering from these particular allies and ah.

18:12.44
Jala & Dave
Another aspect of that Also in looking at specifically like the dating scene where ah men will try to conform to this like ideal like this stereotype of this just rugged large muscled figure and.

18:25.32
Moxie!
Right? yeah.

18:31.90
Jala & Dave
Then they go searching for significant other or dates or things and then try to don't understand like that aesthetic is ah while it's It's a manufactured marketed thing. But it's also mainly for the male gaze so they find themselves getting appreciation from other dudes. Like and validation and things. But then just ignored by who who like the opposite sex or just anyone else that they may have been interested in aren't ah as maybe superficially inclined or they're turned off um because these these larger than life bodies are.

19:07.55
Moxie!
Right.

19:08.90
Jala & Dave
Are larger than life and it's's it's skewed so far in the other direction. Um, thankfully that male ideal ah changes over time. Um, it's it's almost by decade where you can look and see kind of like what's the accepted norms. In society what's being marketed ah those things I mean I'm not saying that they're good things but they do shift so idealized body types do change over time and thankfully there has been a a surge in like say the dad bot that's a more. Realistic body for middle aged guys like you can attain that now that's not necessarily super healthy, but it's also not skewed so far in 1 direction that um, it's that's not. As it. It can be idealized, but it's something that's ah that attainable either by just existing because a lot of times that's just hey you may have been kind of stronger earlier in your your lifetime but life happens and then now you're a different shape. And the fact that that can be found attractive is a better thing than going. Oh no, you're you're 40 power 50 why don't you have chiseled like 6 pack and like 27 biceps and it's just you yeah, that's not going to happen.

20:39.66
Moxie!
Yeah I'd love I loved when the ah Tony Harry make decided to have all the skaters be what they look like now it's just all dad bods doing kick flips that was cool.

20:52.58
Jala & Dave
Um, yeah I mean that that that's a functional but that's just how you are now and the idea the idea that you're putting that emphasis on making realistic bodies as an attractive. Ah, form and that's that's kind of what you see if there's like a clothing line for assigned female at Birth. But it's giving a wider variety of not just this not a victorious secret model. It's like these are all actual. Body types these models are from all walks of life all different shapes and sizes because that's what should be focused on and celebrated and just have representation.

21:36.21
Moxie!
Yeah, yeah, totally.

21:39.33
Jala & Dave
Yeah, and so I was sitting here thinking about it and I ah while I was I was sitting here listening to you Dave I was sitting here in my mind thinking yeah dad boughts dad bods and then you brought it up and I'm like yes, good job. But I was thinking about it while you were talking and. Was trying to figure out if there's any kind of idealization for like you know a smaller bodied assign male of birth individual and so the only thing I could come up with is twinks. That's it. That's the only one that's the only one that we got that's like in a positive image given to a smaller bodied.

22:05.20
Moxie!
Yeah I mean the fit.

22:14.44
Moxie!
Yeah I mean the the femboy showing here at the earth.

22:14.63
Jala & Dave
I mail a birth person. Yeah, right? I mean like fem boys thankfully Femboy are like becoming you know over time they are becoming more idealized and accepted and things like that and not so much like a I don't know like ah ah I hate to say niche market but you know what I mean like you know like it's it's.

22:31.72
Moxie!
Sure sure Yeah, no I know it? Yeah yeah.

22:35.84
Jala & Dave
It's like underground kind of culture or whatever like they are kind of getting a little bit um more more widespread in in acknowledgement of that type of person. But um, you know there's there's that kind of a thing. Um, but like where's ah huh.

22:50.26
Moxie!
So I think so I think um and you know all of this or a lot of this tends to be at least somewhat niche I think ah you know one area where you saw some of that was kind of the 90 s like ah. Sort of heroin chic. Ah you know, kind kind some of the the rockers of that era the David Moys yeah yeah I mean that was the thing where you know all about the gangly.

23:10.28
Jala & Dave
Um, grunge. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. But you know that thing is is that you know like that that was um, an era of time and that was again kind of like an alt culture and then. You know like that era of time has passed and what's it been replaced by now we've got fem Boysy. You know, like Fem Boysise is is like the new new equivalent of that So Femboy and twinks. That's that what be good, but like if you're not um, a gay male or you know if you're not um, a fem boyy but you are you know like a smaller.

23:33.70
Moxie!
Right? yeah.

23:48.71
Jala & Dave
Smaller proportioned. You know as assign male of birth individual than like where does that leave you like that. You don't fit one of those so like where's your box your box is passed your your past your expiration day I don't know like Dave your box is dad bogged. Ah yeah, yeah, it is you and you were in dad bought now. So.

24:06.41
Moxie!
Yeah I think that's I don't know if we'll talk about it later. But yeah I I personally see that as you know something that's been a big shift is in you know, kind of the depictship Movie. So Um. In terms of like you know say the superhero movies were just everyone's ripped like I do think there's definitely a sense in which um Hollywood much more now Emphasizes. Um. You know the importance of looking muscular and you know those sorts of things.

24:45.28
Jala & Dave
Right? Because if you look and this is a topic that you had brought up um moxie in the the green room. But um, you know if you look back to like the Christopher Reeve um Superman movies and like older older superhero movies and things like that they had realistic bodies. They weren't like they might have been muscular but they weren't like chiseled you know the way that a lot of stuff turns like hyper hyper bodybuilding style. Um, so you know like.

25:11.98
Moxie!
Right? Exactly see the same thing with James Bond ah yeah with connery versus. Um, oh who's the current James Bond um yeah thank you, thank you? Yeah no I mean it's the same way. 

25:21.24
Jala & Dave
Daniel Craig

25:27.83
Moxie!
Actually something I I had just kind of thought of when Dave was talking. Um I wonder if some of the reason you know with the dad bod thing you know, not seeing that as much in like Hollywood I wonder if some of that could go to? um. Yeah I've read a lot of think pieces talk about the fact that like if you look at action movies and like the 80 s and 90 s a lot of them were you know like the diehard where it's like the working man you know, average man that saves the day was nowadays like all of the equivalent of that. It's like.

26:06.16
Moxie!
The dudes a Navy see or you know a spy or something like that. So I wonder if ah, some of that could be I don't know maybe even like a post nine eleven thing of like.

26:19.37
Moxie!
You know it's no longer good enough to be like an average dude average dudes can't be Heroes anymore.

26:26.63
Jala & Dave
There was some shift to that and some shift in the idea of like ah I won't say sexualized bodies but maybe the consideration of sexual bodies. An example would be Kevin James a comedian and. Ah, he had his Tv shows and then when he switched into doing movies. Yeah, they were. They were ridiculous but it started shifting from things like Paul Blart Malllop to he did an mma like movie where he was just a teacher and.

27:02.10
Jala & Dave
He's a dad Bo body but then he gets into like competitive fighting and you know of course he did some training to to do that role, but his but his physique was still a larger kind of heavier set guy and was.

27:18.73
Jala & Dave
Leading man he is the leading men and all of these things and that there is a shift to that like ah if you want to look at the post Nine Eleven structure so there were there. There has been in the last twenty years a lot of um. Ah, first responder shows police ah police shows. Firefighters has been really big and the aesthetic body for like the firefighter it said they're muscular guys. But they're not like body builder fatigue because they just do a they have a hard job and so they look like they like a farm man. They they.

27:34.45
Moxie!
No.

27:53.20
Jala & Dave
Work out, but it's it's to the level of they have functional muscle that's more attainable That's more ah becoming more like acceptable in that sense of like oh these are um, like.

28:08.69
Jala & Dave
Sexualized figures in media that you can aspire to but still look. You know, still be out there helping people like that kind of just everyday person.

28:15.60
Moxie!
Well I think there's also probably the dynamics you know I I know there was a thing. Um, you know there is kind of a dynamic with a lot of women feeling pressure where you know. Seeing all the like fat size 0 fashion models. Ah you know that sort of thing kind of feeling pressured to look like that when often you know the vast majority of men you know are very much attracted to you know. A little bit heavier. You know more curvy builds you you know those sorts of things and I feel like there's kind of a similar thing where like I don't think there was ever a time where like I'm not going to say no women but like where hardly any women. Assuming they're interested like a a muscular build you aren? Ah you know that sort of thing we're going to be like I don't know this ah firefighter. Yeah, he's muscular but he does have a 6 pack. Yeah so I feel like there's also a difference between. Not just society's expectation but what like hollywood tells us society's expectation is and what ah you know women assuming one's heter a sexual actually care about.

29:38.29
Jala & Dave
Yeah, those I don't think that those things line up. However, what that does do is the the younger population grow up with like these sort of mixed messages going all of the media I'm seeing all of my the people that are.

29:49.42
Moxie!
Sure.

29:57.64
Jala & Dave
Heroic adults like I don't mean like Superris but just people that they role models that they can look up to um are regularly because they're part of the hollywood like mill they're manufactured bodies.

30:13.30
Jala & Dave
Like they have access to things that the general population isn't going to you. They have dietitians personal trainers. They have access to 24 hour you know um their situation isn't a thing that you can easily replicate because you're not getting paid these multimillion dollar salaries or anything and. To have those ah held up as like ideal physiques and you know there's there's no, that's unspoken things. It's not like saying oh look at these and you have to emulate that. But that's what you're shown all the time. So you start to internalize that and then that's where we get into these issues to where as you're growing up.

30:51.22
Jala & Dave
You're not seeing by and large some people get you know that that's just their physique might lend themselves to that. But most folks aren't able to do that Whether it's their culture society their means whatever there's a lot of factors that go into that and that's where these um.

30:58.93
Moxie!
Sure, Yeah, totally.

31:10.61
Jala & Dave
The seeds of dysmorphia start to begin right? and regardless of what kind of dysmorphia you have um, it's especially in the in this economy? Yeah like I just have to and.

31:11.46
Moxie!
Yeah, definitely.

31:26.42
Jala & Dave
Mind that because you're sitting here talking and I'm just like we have food deserts we have like people who have to work so many different jobs in order to just like get by scrape by and do whatever it is. They're doing like they don't have the time the energy the funds. The anything. You know if they have kids they don't have anybody to watch their kids if they want to go do something for themselves wellness wise this that and the other like there's so many different roadblocks that are up between you know, like because the the whole just do it attitude like sure you have an attitude but you have to have like the means to do that and a lot of people these days and. I would argue an increasing number of people these days don't have the means to devote themselves to it to just do it. You know to to get to whatever it is that they're getting to and that also that just doit attitude lends itself to people burning themselves out getting injured doing all this overwork. Where they don't get enough rest. There's not an emphasis in that this this ties into not just toxic masculinity not just like um this morphic stuff but it also ties into our our whole burnout culture and you know workaholic situation in the capitalist brain thing.

32:34.85
Moxie!
Yeah.

32:36.23
Jala & Dave
As well. So like you know this is this is a conglomeration because none of this stuff exists in a bubble.

32:42.41
Moxie!
Well and the funny thing is um, it's just like you said it's very much a you know? capitalist kind of often people trying to sell you things because you know in my experience. Ah the. People who are actually in the bodybuilding community. Ah that sort of thing you know have tremendous respect for ah you know the people that are like I know you know are poor or you know live live where they do have a gym and are like. Building their muscles by like either doing you know body weight stuff or you know I I remember I read an article in 1 of the um oh ah, bodybuiling magazine about like people in Jamaica that had built a ah gym where literally they were like. Lifting engine blocks of cars and stuff because that's all they had like so my my point being the fight thing is that the people that are actually like the fittest people on earth are much more accepting of you know, different. Approaches and different body types and that sort of thing generally speaking then? yeah I guess what media is.

33:59.99
Jala & Dave
Yeah, and I would also venture to say just by virtue of having gone to a lot of different different gyms in different states all over the place. Um by and large folks at the gym are some of the most like accepting and like well.

34:16.71
Jala & Dave
Meaning and willing to help you out people because they know the hard work that it takes to to get the results they know, um that you can't just do it in a month and on that same token. There is um, some.

34:28.32
Moxie!
Right? totally.

34:35.18
Jala & Dave
Pushback as far as the the wave of folks that come in to do their new year's resolution the resolutioners probably oh going only be there for a month or 2 Um, so yeah, they may look down on like frown on that a bit because then it's like you want results. But you don't want to put anything in for it.

34:38.78
Moxie!
Right? right.

34:50.79
Moxie!
Right? exactly.

34:53.10
Jala & Dave
Um, so there may be some pushback to that. But but by and large they're willing to help you out people are willing to give tips to share workouts. There's whole platforms. There's communities built around it. Um online and ah fitness is something where education and and and and. Learning about it is like a lifelong thing because there's always new studies. Um, there's always more information coming out. There's it's it's continually being refined because by and large it's while it's something that's been around for a very long time. A lot of the science behind it is new.

35:28.83
Moxie!
Sure, Yeah, totally.

35:30.94
Jala & Dave
There's a lot.. There's more study into like what specific vitamins or different supplements. These things can do for you or just um studies on ah exercise regimens and knowing how much work you have to put into get a specific result like what that does what that does for different body types. It's being um, continually improved and something that is benefiting like the community at large the the downside to that is when you're doing um like competitive bodybuilding say the harmful part isn't doing the activity.

36:08.28
Jala & Dave
Humble part is the structures that's built around doing the competitions and the judging and the the aesthetics that's sort of enforced upon that sport. Um, those aren't always in line with something That's the most um, healthful for you.

36:22.72
Moxie!
Sure, Yeah, totally.

36:26.13
Jala & Dave
Well and also bodybuilding as you and I have had many discussions and I think we've had them on Mike A few times as well. Um, so the the bodybuilding is also all all of it is structured towards the male gaze so you have these. Competitions where women are held up to this. You have to be big and muscley but you also have to be super feminine and you know so all of them have like these acrylic nails and their hair they grow out really long and they have like implants and you know like they have to wear high heels for their competition men aren't wearing high heels what the hell. And like the women one of their things they got to do is they got to stick their little ass out and like bend over a little bit so they can show you their you know their butt like you know the guys are showing their butt in their little trunks too. But they're not having to do it in high heels bent over you know, like that's not a thing right? So um. You know like there's there's a lot of other things and then not only that but bodybuilding spaces and competitions like there are a few that have some nonbinary categories and things. But there isn't a space for anyone other than like you know a binary male female competition and most.

37:33.70
Jala & Dave
Bodybuilding circles. So if you are non-binary. There isn't a place for you in competitive bodybuilding except for like in these very small and limited capacities. But you're not going to be on stage at Arnold ever you know? So so you know you've got that kind of a situation going as well. Which is again like that's another frustration.

37:42.73
Moxie!
Great. Yeah.

37:52.30
Jala & Dave
Another thing that's that's kind of a rough putt. So um.

37:56.10
Moxie!
Does it seem like this might be going off topic but does it seem to you like that's maybe particularly on the female side um getting a little better because it seems like you know I can remember ah. A time when like a guy dating like a woman who is really muscular was like a would be like a punchline of a joke was like nowadays like that's probably a niche preference but Like. It's a preference that like if someone was like oh yeah, I'm really into muscular women like no one would be like you know, think that was that weird you know I mean.

38:40.60
Jala & Dave
Up right? right? and I can say from my personal experience that yeah like um back when I was Teeny tiny because we talked about it but like um, you know I grew up in the era of ah the the main thrust that you know the the idealized body for women was.

38:55.38
Jala & Dave
Teeny tiny like you have to be as small as you possibly can and so like when I was teeny tiny from doing all the different things I was doing you know, but then I turned you know I started to bodybuild and get muscular there I had a lot of pushback and and immediately. But then like. Ah, several years ago suddenly I started getting all these Dms where it's like step on me queen and things like that I'm like wow the times they do be a change in ah you know like and and so like yeah, there's there's definitely been a lot more acceptance of you know, um, female lifters.

39:16.68
Moxie!
Um, yeah, yeah.

39:29.70
Jala & Dave
Ah assigned sinepiel female at birth lifters and power lifters and you know all of that like that is becoming more accepted but again like part of the reason I wanted to do this episode is well of course because we talked about fat phobia we have to talk about the other side of that for 1

39:43.75
Moxie!
Oh yeah, totally.

39:46.96
Jala & Dave
Um, but also because this isn't something this talked about that is not is not really talked about a whole lot. Um, because there again there isn't like an idealized um you know, assigned male at birth individual who is you know except for those 2 2 ah types that we mentioned and those are pretty pretty niche. Things they're not like there's not like a broadly accepted like even to this day in media if you see a smaller build male character in anything that's going to be your nerd every time you know like it's it's going to be your nerd. That's all there is to it or they're going to be sick.

40:25.34
Jala & Dave
1 of those things and that's not you know, like granted you know like being a nerd has turned into this cooler thing now but like by and large it's not really um, presented to anybody as being like this is a fine and good body shape leave them the fuck alone with whatever size they are they are fine

40:40.30
Moxie!
Right? right.

40:44.62
Jala & Dave
And also you know they are sexy. The way that they are like you have a little bit of that again with like you know some of the older culture of like grunge and rock star. You know alt rock things from you know, like the 90 s but like these days not not as much not as much and.

40:58.92
Moxie!
No, not not not too much.

41:02.91
Jala & Dave
Yeah, just some of that idea that idea of this like tiny nerd um stereotype. That's I won't say it's the the primary motivator but that's part of like why I have my degree in it's It's basically a history degree but I wanted to be like a buff Historian because that sounded great to me.

41:23.40
Jala & Dave
Be a huge Librarian or something right right? and you know, ah we'll we'll get to the experiential stuff on this for sure. But so I do want to circle back to some some more about skinny phobia and muscle dysmorphia just to talk about. Ah.

41:38.75
Jala & Dave
A little bit more of what that is and then we can get into experiential stuff from there. So ah so people with muscle dysmorphia will wear will wear baggy clothes to hide flaws but may also purchase or custom tailor clothing to accentuate certain body parts in order to present themselves in the way they wish to be perceived now I read this and I'm like but that's.

41:58.60
Jala & Dave
Basically everybody who puts effort into their appearance isn't it like most people will do that like they're not going to show off the things that they're self-conscious about usually um, they're going to try to hide that and then they're going to try to like emphasize the things that they like about themselves like I think that's pretty much everyone. Um I think. Here They mean that this is kind of like an ah, an excessive concern and an excessive level of energy put into it that's going to be something to where every time you go buy clothes or pickout outfits. It's for that reason like it's not oh I need a new shirt. It's like oh I'm.

42:30.39
Moxie!
Sure yeah.

42:36.21
Jala & Dave
I need to show off this or when you maybe that's not in your head immediately. But when you go to put on clothes or try them on. You're dismissing things and out of hand like immediately because that doesn't do this one particular thing for you like much less to do with like the color of it or just the style of outfit. Right? So like 1 thing I would think about in terms of um muscle dysmorphia or skinny phobia would be like um if you are of slightr build and you go to try on clothes. You are not going to get the skinny genes. You're not going to get the joggers that are like form fitting to your body because then that will.

43:15.00
Jala & Dave
Show everybody that you have small legs and you don't want to hear anybody give you shit about having small legs something like that you know, um that that would be a quick version of that that I would think yeah and that's um, you know we're not diving too much into the experiential stuff right now but say an example would be I know that if I. Pick up like a ah ah vneck t-shirt or an undershirt or anything like that that because that is meant to emphasize the chest and like that's something that I personally find lacking I won't get that thing because it makes my chest look small like only for that reason, right? It's it.

43:53.29
Moxie!
Yet This all, it's just gonna say um, another example and this is much more specialized. Ah, but you know for if someone's dressing more non-binary. Ah where they're potentially dress wearing.

44:11.35
Moxie!
I mean in terms of gendered clothes. Women's clothes tend to be more revealing. So I think you might see this not necessarily more but more obviously if ah, you know, non-binary people that like. You know, look at like oh this cutoff is it going to show my stomach I don't have a 6 pack or you know you know some of those sorts of things I think you'd also see it.

44:36.37
Jala & Dave
Right? and something what when you mentioned um you know women's clothes and things like that. Um, the first thing that I was thinking about is that smaller sized women because they were idealized for so long they are accepted smaller sized more often than not. There are people who will say that girl needs to eat or whatever but like um, you know they're they're usually more accepted than an assigned male at birth individual is you know at the same size or like as ah, rather a similar body size. Let's let's say that. So. Um, that's where it comes into some frustrations. So yeah and you know like that's the same kind of concern that I have like I I used to have super rips 6 pack but ah, lots and lots of life has occurred to me ah and things have been very hard for a very long time over at Jolla house. So um.

45:29.59
Jala & Dave
As a result right now I Definitely don't like I have the muscles but I also um, don't have the time energy spoons. Whatever to um, go and invest all the time into my fun activities that I like to do that burn all the the calories that I need to ah get to the point where I was at before.

45:43.30
Moxie!
Sure, Yeah, totally.

45:48.30
Jala & Dave
Am I wearing crop tops right now. No I'm not no I am not and on the subject of crop tops. Let's bring that back for dudes like that was a big thing in the 80 s and it was great and why can't we have that again I will tell you Jolla likes that on dudes.

46:04.20
Jala & Dave
Or a assign male of birth individuals. Everybody should wear crop tops I love it and then ah.

46:08.90
Moxie!
It's so weird I I didn't realize that was the thing until um, one of my friends is talk about trying to do a. Group cosplay of some of their like eighty s g I Joe characters and like a ton of those characters wearing top crop tops. It's really interesting.

46:26.11
Jala & Dave
Yeah, yeah, so that was super a thing for a while there. It's kind of like the tiny tiny short shorts were so a thing for dudes back in the day like they were wearing some daisy Dukes y'all and like that was fine. You know so let's let's bring. Let's let's bring back that.

46:43.27
Moxie!
I I was surprised I was surprised that didn't um, come back with um you know, kind of the post nine Eleven you know the the military stuff because the military loves it short shorts for some reason? Yeah so I was.

46:56.64
Jala & Dave
Yeah, the ranger panties. Absolutely.

47:00.69
Moxie!
I Was surprised that those didn't come back into fashion just from that.

47:03.29
Jala & Dave
No, what ended up happening was post nine Eleven the few years between like then and 2005 was seventy s fashion is what came back. You got big, big pointy collars and Bell Bottom jeans that's what happened does it though I don't think it does.

47:12.38
Moxie!
Okay. Makes sense.

47:24.23
Jala & Dave
Yeah, okay, so um, moving right? along so muscle dysmorphia has a lot of different damaging thoughts such as beliefs that one's body is not sufficiently muscular and large enough overvaluing appearance. So you know so feeling that you know so one's worth is tied to their external. Um, appearance more so than anything you know like prioritizing that over other aspects of that themselves intrusive negative thoughts about 1 ne's body that leads to distractability and difficulty focusing attention now that's that's a pretty strong intrusive negative thought if you can't even focus. Your attention and you're distracted because you are so upset that that's a pretty strong feeling that you've got there ah belief that others negatively evaluate this. You know your your appearance when you are of this size so like you automatically think everybody else is judging you and. You know, looking down on you because of how you look now granted that's that's partially because again in society you get a lot of shit for existing um and it doesn't matter what you look like you get shit for existing you know like even if you are the quote unquote bombshell blonde or whatever they get shit.

48:33.50
Moxie!
Totally.

48:39.48
Jala & Dave
Because people automatically assume that they're dumb they're they're airheads. They're this, they're that and you know everybody gets some kind of flak for existing because everybody else can't mind their own business I will say that. Yeah when if you're looking at that like the judging of others or really, it's kind of comparing. Ones self to everyone else like that ever exists because it just happens. Ah I I will see folks when I'm just out and about and I like man that's a huge fulman or they're super muscley and. I can appreciate that like that's great. They must put in hard work and then I hear that they don't go to the gym or they don't work out or at least they'd say they don't and then that just drives up the inferiority kind of like okay it's like I know I personally put in a lot of effort. But I only have this to show for it and they're not doing you know. Fuck all and look gorgeous like you start getting upset or at least I do that is a normal human reaction and I know one of the people you're talking about is that guy from moai that I went up to him like yeah, you must work out. Like nope I don't do anything I have not gone to the gym ever in my life I only do like I only just started moai three weeks ago and he's a big dude big dude and he doesn't do fuck all and it's like okay well, that's nice. Isn't it good for you. But.


50:09.12
Jala & Dave
Um, yeah, so that that's a frustrating thing for sure and and that's a a normal thought pattern Dave you're not alone in that. That's that's pretty much like I I also get frustrated like everybody gets frustrated when somebody else has like a a natural.

50:23.29
Jala & Dave
Because of their genetics or because of whatever like they they have a natural something that you want and you have to work very hard for it. But that person has it with no effort like that's that's just a frustration because of all the amount of effort that you put in and then you're just like you know it and um.

50:41.90
Jala & Dave
It'll yeah, it's kind of going off topic. But um, so ah when Dave and I were discussing moai ah, this morning as a matter of fact, we were out running errands and I was talking to him about how like because I'm I'm doing moai but I'm also getting interested in doing indian club.

51:00.36
Jala & Dave
And ah Mace swinging and I'm getting more excited about that than I have been about moyai for a while and part of the reason for that is because ah so so my my strengths for myself. Are you know like I have I build muscle very easily I keep muscle for a long time.

51:01.28
Moxie!
Totally.

51:20.35
Jala & Dave
You know with with very little minimal effort which is a frustration because for Dave you know because like I I can keep muscle I can build muscle fast but ah when it comes to something like moai that's something Dave Excels at because he has ah. This history of martial arts training when he did kempo when he did whatever and so he has the neural pathways built in he already knows how to do the types of movement even if it's not the same style of movement. He has some of those movement patterns.

51:51.85
Jala & Dave
Without the any kind of excess there's there's an economy of motion that he has when he's doing moitai that the 2 of us can be learning something that is a new movement and even if it's not a movement. He's ever done in Kempo. Ah, he can still translate his prior experiences. Into having a certain level of finesse with it and ease of picking it up that even if I pick it up. It looks more awkward than it does for him and it would be the same way if he were to try to start dance class with me for example and it would be the same way. If we were doing an endurance style thing because I I am strong and I do endurance stuff and you know do I have economy of motion when it comes to running you bet you do I have economy of motion with a lot of other things that I've done like dance and whatever yes, you bet you because I've done those for years. You know? um, but.

52:26.17
Moxie!
Sure.

52:43.46
Jala & Dave
He will automatically excel in Muay Thai to a degree that I will not because I don't have the predisposition right? I don't have um the the history behind it that lends itself to like the muscle training the nerve training all of that kind of development that happens over Time. So I'm Starting. At a place which is behind where he's starting if we're doing any kind of a martial art. So um, the mace the mace swinging though. That's an endurance style. That's a flow style. It integrates the yoga which I've been doing forever and all these other things it incorporates elements of things that I like that I'm.

53:21.45
Jala & Dave
You know, ah have history with but it's also still something that you know it's a type of martial arts training. Although it's not actively like you don't do um mace combat or anything in India but um, yeah, not anymore. But you can easily translate that into.

53:32.54
Moxie!
Least not anymore.

53:40.11
Jala & Dave
Swinging a mace as somebody's had and smashing it if you really want to. So um, you know that's a thing that I can excel at that gives me a good feeling. You know, um where I can emphasize that and he can emphasize them Moai because that's really like you know he's got enough of a history and enough. Um.

53:40.90
Moxie!
Sure.

53:58.79
Jala & Dave
Of the the built up overtime experience with it that like he will excel there in a way that I will not and like I would have to put in I don't know how many times more of the effort to get to where he's at with that and with my spinal nerve the way it is.

54:13.63
Moxie!
Oh yeah.

54:18.45
Jala & Dave
Um, that's also a concern because there are times where it freezes up in Moitai So I have to be careful with that too. But that.

54:25.20
Moxie!
Yeah I mean that's that's a whole thing because I mean there's entire. You know systems designed to you know, build up. Ah you know that sort of.

54:36.32
Moxie!
I Guess basic kind of body intelligence in various disciplines. Yeah no I mean that's a whole thing.

54:37.22
Jala & Dave
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. So um, all of that to say like because we were having a discussion in preparation for this episode to bring it back around to what we were talking about originally um because. For Dave in moai the style that he would have to emphasize in moyai would be 1 that is focused on speed accuracy and finesse. He has to have the skill level because he's a smaller sized person and so there's a lot of big guys. Um, at least in our area.

55:13.80
Jala & Dave
Do Ah Moitsai So like if he comes up against one of Them. He's not going to outpower power over them overpower Them. He's going to have to get there with all these other aspects that are ah he is more inclined to because of his body type right. So um, that's where all that comes in and like say mace swinging for me that is something that I my body type the way that I build muscle the way that I have endurance and things like that the the flow style of the mace training is something that my body lends itself to. So that is a place where I will excel with that. So. But yeah, um, again like that's that's kind of like um, part of a discussion we'll we'll get into more with the experiential section. Um about just kind of like um, trying to to meet your body where it's at.

56:05.60
Jala & Dave
You know? ah we'll we'll get to that. So um, behaviors that muscle dysmorphic individuals. Ah embody can include excessively working out and lifting weights This is like multiple hours per day repeatedly counting Cal or.

56:20.54
Jala & Dave
Calories avoiding eating out at restaurants due to perceived lack of control over food content balancing carbs, fat protein and vitamins to achieve a perfect formula for their body I Think that's anybody who's doing a lot of um, a lot of these are just like people who are doing bodybuilding Again. There's so much overlap with this. Um, you know people who are working on their physique. Ah, a lot of this is just people working on their physique things. So That's how it lends itself automatically to something like the the bodybuilding sport hating multiple meals throughout the day at Rigidly adhered to schedules. That's this bodybuilding.

56:56.31
Jala & Dave
Excessively checking mirrors or other reflective services. You know avoidance of mirrors or other reflective surface surfaces is also another thing that that's that's specifically like feeling shame about um you know your body and all of that avoidance of social situations where bodies may be on display like the beach or the pool. Camouflagings 1 bought camouflaging 1 ne's body by wearing multiple layers of clothing to appear larger I know a lot of guys who did that when I was growing up. Um and use of and but anabolic steroids or other appearance in performance enhancing drugs. So um, you can see there's ah.

57:32.62
Moxie!
Yeah I think a lot of I think a lot of these are you know if you look at like the ah you know the Dsm you know? ah the diagnostics for like male illness a lot of these. It's not that.

57:46.83
Moxie!
This symptom is necessarily innately. Um, harmful. It's it's you know becomes a mental health issue when it's interfering with your everyday life. So like definitely like I don't because i. Am like a lazy bachelor that barely gets myself ah cooked food but everyone should count calories but like the issue it doesn't become an issue until it's like you know counting calories is keeping you from like.

58:21.54
Moxie!
Doing your job or like hang out with family. You know things like that.

58:25.92
Jala & Dave
Or you know like ah for me in my experiences back when I first started counting calories and because of ah the the history of things going on with assigned female at Birth individuals and what was idealized for them. My. Ah, obsession with becoming smaller and smaller and smaller was so um, overwhelming that the numbers like looking at the number on the scale and trying to make it go down was such a big thing for me that like I I could not for a while once I recognized how it. How things were progressing and that it was becoming unhealthy for me I had to take the scale and put it away and I had to not look at the calorie counts and just kind of do intuitive eating because the numbers were giving me anxiety and causing problems and giving me dysmorphia and um so I mean like there's there's a degree to which like.

59:15.70
Jala & Dave
For some individuals that might not be the way to go. Um, you know, but but you know that said like should you be aware of what's in your food. Yes, should you be aware and like a lot of people aren't That's the thing you know people.

59:15.62
Moxie!
Oh yeah, yeah, totally totally? yeah.

59:29.80
Jala & Dave
Tend to underreport how many calories are in things they underreport you know, like if if they are self selfassessing they they tend to be totally inaccurate about the number of calories they tend to be totally inaccurate about the protein the cal the carbs the fat like they have no concept for what's actually in their food and like reading a label. That's fine. But unless you're like measuring your food like everybody's mental image of what a cup is is really not what a cup is if you take a cup and you you actually put the food in the cup and then you dump it on your plate. You'd be like that I didn't realize that was a cup huh or realize the content of things is like say um.

59:53.60
Moxie!
Right.

01:00:08.46
Jala & Dave
I know 1 thing that I don't think it wasn't for me in particular but I've I've known other folks that like we'd go out to eat or something and go to a restaurant and then they're just perpetually only getting the salad and then over time wondering how you know all all I eat is like this is just roughage. It's just salads. It's um, are they. Let me know what they're eating and then you sit and watch them and go okay, you just have had like 3 salads today but you dumped so much dressing on there or it's full of bacon or you know you can't look at whatever the main thing is and then not account for what else you put on it. Um, and that all just kind of boils down to knowing you know what what? your what? you're putting into your body. You're the results you get are going to happen because of what you're putting in not just the work you're putting in. Absolutely you can have over a thousand calorie salad that looks like the same proportion salad as like a. 90 calorie salad. You know it's just a matter of what you what the components are in that salad so being aware of all that is is really like um again like that's important for people to do for sure for for all of their health concerns. Any of them.

01:01:18.58
Moxie!
This's just this just reminds me of ah Jalla telling me that random things I aren't actually vegan. It's like what do you mean? refried beans aren't vegan. Yeah.

01:01:31.32
Jala & Dave
Um, well they can or can't be it depends on if there's lard in them. You know so.

01:01:35.66
Moxie!
Yeah, so I have no idea what's in you know, even even things I think I know what's in the in the food I don't always know what's in the food.

01:01:44.62
Jala & Dave
Right? right? and you know, especially if you eat out. That's that's harder to know because like you don't get the ingredients list for most places I love it when there is a place that actually puts the ingredients somewhere for you to see if it's on a website or something I love that. So um, but yeah, so disorders commonly seen along with.

01:02:01.40
Jala & Dave
Muscle dysmorphia. So ah, they're not necessarily linked or anything but like these things are common. Ah, in people who have muscle dysmorphia obsessive compulsive disorder substance abuse eating disorders such as restrictive eating bulimia or binge eating disorder. Mood disorders such as depression or bipolar disorder social anxiety disorder or attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Adhd I feel seen. Ah right, right? So um, that's part of the reason why I wanted to to give this. This stuff. Um, you know because like a lot of people they would say oh I I Know what you mean by skinny phobia or muscle dysmorphia but like um, really having it laid out there and and seeing some of this stuff. It's It's important to know that these are all kind of um aspects of it. So. How is muscle dysmmorphia different from healthy bodybuilding or fitness. So inaccurate body image and perception of course self-esteem is almost entirely rested on muscle build where other factors such as intelligence sense of humor relationships et cetera are discounted interference of Muscle. Ah, Dysmorphia behaviors with job school and relationships rather than being integrated into one's life and of course use of dangerous substances such as Anabolic steroids that are clearly contraindicated for a healthy lifestyle. So um, there's another little clip from that same muscle dysmorphia article I'll have in the show notes.

01:03:31.60
Jala & Dave
But people with muscle dysmorphia often deny there as a problem and refuse to consider mental Health treatment. In fact, they are often more likely to seek remedies like plastic surgery to correct their erroneous perceived flaws rather than psychological help and correct and flaws have air quotes around them. So for those who do not consider psychological treatment. It can feel like a catch 22 dilemma not seeking treatment means continued struggles with obsessive thinking and compulsive behavior. However, seeking treatment might include decreasing time at the gym and ceasing any Steroid use resulting in loss of muscle mass which is scary for those with muscle dysmorphia.

01:04:10.78
Jala & Dave
It is scary. It is it is a fear It's kind of like the same fear that Dave Jackson talked about when we were talking about weight fluctuation earlier this year where um, Dave Jackson doesn't want to go through a bulk to try to build up some muscle because. You know he's he's got the fat phobia in him and doesn't want to bulk bulking is scary because you know he worked so hard to lose over a hundred pounds that the idea of putting pounds back on consciously even if you know he knows that there there is a method to it and you know there's a way back and all of that. Ah, that's that's a scary thing that is very hard and I can say from my own experience bulking the first time I did induced panic a lot of times in me. Um, until I I mastered it I learned how to do it and then I'm like oh actually this is fine but it is very scary for anybody with body dysmorphia to um, kind of go.

01:05:03.14
Jala & Dave
Smaller or bigger depending upon what? what? their particular disposition is so it's important that individuals with muscle dysmorphia work with a therapist who specializes in body Dysmorphic Disorder Ocd or body image disorders and education is important for. Helping to inform individuals with muscle dysmorphia about healthy body ideals proper nutrition and the dangers of Over-exercise Cognitive Behavior Therapy or cbt can be helpful in addressing negative self-talk and unhelpful thinking patterns while at the same time. Targeting repetitive or compulsive behaviors and increasing healthy behaviors Therapy can also be supplemented with attendance at support groups. So um, you know, Basically this is just saying like and and a lot of what this this section this little excerpt that I brought out. Um, maybe think is just like about the toxic masculinity side of things because people who are are in denial yeah of having a problem I don't have a problem you have a problem like that feels like a very toxic masculine kind of deal. You know? ah.

01:06:07.49
Moxie!
So although in some ways I definitely get what you're saying although I I feel like in some ways those are almost different in that I feel like we're almost talking about 2 related but separate issues you know. On the 1 hand you have you know the fact that society is you know, very um, untolerant of ah you know body types and things like that that don't look like the quote unquote ideal and making people feel less than and so. You know you kind of have that toxicity but that can be different from the people that have I guess you know in in the same way that like lack of self-esteem over someone that is um, you know, um plus size. Is different from like having this eating disorder. There's kind of you know, um, someone can be you know can have problems with how they view their skinniness without necessarily having the like distorted perceptions and stuff like that that are um. Associated with clinical ah you know dysmorphia.

01:07:25.80
Jala & Dave
Yeah, absolutely and and that is because all of these things are symptoms of something else like the dysmorphia. It's a symptom. It's not like you don't have that because you have it like that's not the root something else.

01:07:44.86
Jala & Dave
Created this thing within you and how you how that manifests and how you deal with it. That's all going to be different for each individual So That's why there's a host of like. These things can show up these can be indicators of if you have dysmorphia and it's It's a it's a spectrum like a lot of things are it's ah it's a variety. You're not going to just oh, you're ticking all these marks and oh you must that that means you have body dysmorphia. Ah, it's a degree. So.

01:08:02.68
Moxie!
Oh yeah, totally.

01:08:10.89
Moxie!
Right.

01:08:15.12
Jala & Dave
That can be like oh you only have one of these things. Well you still have body dysmorphia. It just may not be you know, horrendously severe. It may not be to the point where it's impacting your life or it did at 1 time and you've dealt with it. Maybe you didn't even know you were dealing with it.

01:08:18.85
Moxie!
Right? exactly.

01:08:32.68
Jala & Dave
You you something else happened to lessen. Ah what that is So maybe that's because the root cause of it has shifted over time. So if this is ah um, if this symptom is because of ah.

01:08:49.21
Jala & Dave
Ah, Facet of toxic masculinity or um pertin your your image that you have of what you want your body to be or what your but you think your body's supposed to be that can change and if you've based that upon consciously or not because I don't I don't think.

01:09:07.63
Jala & Dave
For the most part I don't think people pick a thing and go like that's I want to look just like that. It's more like that appeared and then they internalized it and then then thought okay that's what I'm supposed to be or maybe I do want to be like that because you made a choice. But if that's because of a popular. Concept or an icon of some sort and that thing changed like that became less popular. It doesn't mean that you're you're like trend chasing but because that's less in your field of view. Um, that can mitigate or or exacerbate like the symptoms you have.

01:09:45.45
Jala & Dave
Right? Those are all the notes that I had for the academic portion which means that the bulk of my talking is now over and I can seed the floor to both of you about the experiential questions. 

01:12:33.70
Jala & Dave
We are now ready we will continue so without further ado I will ask the both of you starting with you Moxie because you need to talk. Ah, what is your earliest memory of feeling skinny phobic.

01:12:51.23
Moxie!
Wow. Um, earliest is ah tough to say I mean I definitely so kind of my background um growing up I was pretty much always the ah the smallest. Um. You know cop person in my grade. Um, you know it's funny now I'm between ah ah, average height and I'm I'm five ten so you know fairly fairly tall now but that I don't know like ah. How many inches I grew but a lot of my like how you actually gained in college. So ah, you know, ah growing up very very short, very very slender and so I don't know at that point necessarily explicitly like.

01:13:43.10
Moxie!
And emphasis on you know, strength or muscle as a specific thing but more just kind of being a guy that was very small. Um and then you know it was um, kind of the last half of um, high school was when I got into Mar charts.

01:14:02.36
Moxie!
And then when I went to college was when I got into weightlifting and so I think that was a lot of when um, when it kind of um, got to be for me more about um.

01:14:20.81
Moxie!
Ah, more more about like actual muscle and that sort of thing.

01:14:26.36
Jala & Dave
Right? right? How about you Dave I would say probably when I was a child. Um I was always like a little skinny guy and. I grew up watching in in the 80 s so all of the role models I saw I say all of them. It was really just Arnold Schwarzenegger just watched him in so many movies and stallone. Um van dam like everybody there. They're not like.

01:14:49.66
Moxie!
Yeah.

01:14:57.49
Jala & Dave
Um, stallone and van damm weren't huge guys but they were definitely bigger than just the regular dude and ah with Schwarzenegger he's just he's massive. But for some reason ah those because I watched a lot of action movies in kung fu films. 

01:15:15.69
Jala & Dave
Everyone was pretty muscular like even say Jackie Chan in his heyday was pretty ripped ah and that's just because that's who I saw that's what I thought when you become an adult you just look that way like that's just it. Because there was never an emphasis on like what happened before you know they'll no, they're just that's how they they sprung fully formed from zeus' head rippling with muscles. Um, and so I didn't realize that oh yeah, it helps if you if you're like a six foot tall adult.

01:15:48.79
Jala & Dave
Like that's if if it or your your your parents are also huge. Um I didn't ask and I wasn't told like that you just don't get to be that way when you you know when you after you get out of your larval stage. Um, so.

01:16:00.99
Moxie!
A. Now I'm just matching an incredibly ripped butterfly.

01:16:12.63
Jala & Dave
Yeah, you know it's the it's the bugs life. Um, caterpillar that move you to full ripped butterfly ah and he just pops out and he just has wings little wings but he still looks a caterpillar which is how I felt when I um you know became an adult.

01:16:29.99
Jala & Dave
So what threw things off for me was um, ah when I started my like primary school like elementary school I was younger I was like four so I was a year or 2 years younger than all my peers which threw things up because I was already smaller and then they were older but that's who i. Grew up with so there's a disconnect like I just thought that that's what we look like is this um and discounting like myself and genetics and everything else and then when I got into junior high high school where you start kind of growing. Um, there's there's. Some of this genetics as of it's a disservice I got into tracking field and cross country. So all the guys I was surrounded with and and the and the girls everyone was long-d distance runners so everyone was just bean poles like I was shorter but I looked the same as everyone we all just had runner bodies and I was like ah I was five seven

01:17:16.95
Moxie!
Yeah, so grown there as well. Yeah, totally.

01:17:26.77
Jala & Dave
and 115 pounds like that was my like high school probably my senior year weight I was tiny but I didn't think of it because everyone else looked like that too like that's that was the the people I hung out with that and then the kids from band so nobody was muscular. You know.

01:17:37.57
Moxie!
Good.

01:17:46.16
Jala & Dave
Excessively anyway and then going into college I was I was just really busy. All the time. Um, so there was no. There was no like the freshman 15 or whatever they want to call it where you you go from your house to dorm life and then you're just eating. Ramen and pizza and gain some weight. Um I didn't have that I was working full time doing management um working ridiculous hours at a video store and doing school and everything else. So I didn't gain I just I think I lost weight. Um, but I eventually got into martial arts around that same time and. So I I was getting the fitness I needed like I I toned up some more I did put on a little bit of muscle but it really didn't change my weight like I'm just a slight person. So I maybe was like £130 like soaking wet and. I thought I looked okay like I was like okay this is definitely I didn't I didn't reach the arnold level I'm I'm not quite jackie chan level he's still bigger than me. But I'm doing okay until I started sparring and everyone else was huge and I was just getting launched across the room like.

01:18:58.82
Jala & Dave
I had the skill to keep up with things. But if I got hit it. It just sent me flying because everyone else was twenty thirty forty more more penals than me and and taller. Ah and that started like me like being more critical with like how I looked um.

01:19:18.40
Jala & Dave
And then I went into the military and regardless of like your career field. Everyone's generally pretty fit either standards you have to meet like minimally so I At that point I could I could hit them but I was just kind of barely coasting along and then just.

01:19:37.34
Jala & Dave
The people I everyone started going to the gym a lot. So then I was very cognizant of okay I have not only a size difference. There's a there's ah, a giant strength gap and trying to like.

01:19:53.35
Jala & Dave
Square that circle with I know I can do the thing but I don't look like everyone else that's doing the thing before the with the Mush arts and then with um track and field. All my peers looked kind of like I did just based on interests. But then when you get into something that's the military.

01:20:12.57
Jala & Dave
Ah, it's all people from all walks of life. Um, but by and large they were in pretty good Shape. So then I started feeling like deficient and gaining more of a critical eye on myself and what I might want. And then um then I started dating ah a girl that was she wanted to do bodybuilding competitions and was at the gym 3 times a day and had a specific diet and all of these things. So.

01:20:48.88
Jala & Dave
Birdred that to like an even higher level of going. Okay I can't um I didn't tie it to like my worth as a man as much. Um because I I felt that no I can recognize when someone else is putting in hard work for something and it's not making me any lesser. Because they're they're putting in the work and they're getting something out of it. So what that did for me was okay I just need to put in more work and then I can get results too. Ah, but again I So I was mid 20 s at that point or late twenty s so the work I had to put in was like.

01:21:25.10
Jala & Dave
More? Um, because I was also like 7 years older than than the the girl that I was dating so trying to kind of come to terms with okay I have to do increased effort. Um, I have to really watch what I'm eating and what I'm drinking and all of that and still go to the gym and still just juggling everything and results aren't automatic. But I'm reading um iron iron and fitness um body fitness muscle magazine.

01:21:58.39
Jala & Dave
All of these things to kind of try to get tips because I didn't have anyone to talk to that I thought was like more toward my goals. Um, and so the education just wasn't quite there yet and I had to sort of learn it on my own and then supplement like I can see I can read the you know.

01:22:17.77
Jala & Dave
I'm not I'm not dumb I can read the articles and know that okay the dude that's doing this workout plan. He's massive like I can't I'm not going to be hitting those numbers but I can adjust it to like myself like okay so I can't be doing bench press 10 reps at 235 like it's not going to happen.

01:22:35.31
Jala & Dave
Like I can I can understand that but I'm just kind of trying to scale them down still putting in all the work. Nothing was happening like I didn't realize oh I needed to like increase what much I was eating like there' just there was a lack of education on on my part.

01:22:53.58
Jala & Dave
But there's no place that like that's given to you like you have to go look for it and when you're busy with like all of your life and everything else you do? That's hard. That's its own time. Sink is to like become educated in those things. That's why a lot of people like they don't have that that that that's a that's a lack. Um, and. So I put on for me What what was a bunch of weight I put on about £30 um and some of that was fluffy weight but a lot of it was still that's still Mass. You still can get to move more weight and that's why like a power lifter is kind of they're on the heavier side. Um, you're not worried as much about physique as raw strength and for me I was trying to like aim a little bit more for that. Ah, and so creating like unrealistic that's that's part of the whole thing of creating unrealistic goals for yourself and and forming a strange idea of a body image I wanted to look like Arnold.

01:23:50.84
Jala & Dave
But I'm built like hey Arnold. So.

01:23:57.24
Jala & Dave
I'm I'm the doug funny of like the weightlifting world and ah so I had to start kind of re assigning in my head goals that are achievable. Um.

01:24:12.84
Jala & Dave
But because of that because of that disconnect in the beginning when I was building this foundation. The foundation was was shaky. Um I was just putting in reps are up traps numbers numbers numbers and not like understanding um fundamentals of bodybuilding.

01:24:30.35
Jala & Dave
And and gaining muscle and understanding that okay I need to do I understood. Okay I have to do progressive overload but I didn't know what that like entailed I just figured oh I'm just going to go bench press I'm just going to go curl I'm just going to do a billion squats but not like tailoring anything I'm just I'll just wing it.

01:24:37.47
Moxie!
Sure.

01:24:48.96
Jala & Dave
And you'll get results over time because you're doing a thing your your body will adjust to an activity and like build muscle. It's not quality. Muscle. It's not working just working muscle it ends up being like weird half showing muscle. Well and not only that. But if you aren't hitting all of the like accessory movements for all the supporting muscles around the the primary movers then you also have muscle imbalances or you have some stabilization weaknesses which then can potentially lead to injury.

01:25:19.51
Moxie!
Right.

01:25:21.44
Jala & Dave
Yeah, um, injury and a lot of that came down to is I knew that I'm only going to be gaining things by putting in more. The 1 thing I can control is the effort I put in um, barring anything else I can just do it more I can work harder and that's going to. Get me something what that is I don't know what that is is injury because that you start chasing that one more rep I'll just I'll be so much stronger if I can just get 1 more strong rep in and invariably I've injured myself multiple time even even knowing eventually um, more concrete.

01:25:42.14
Moxie!
Right? yeah.

01:26:00.10
Jala & Dave
Ah, physical fundamentals and and and workout regimens still have hurt myself I've done I've been better about it like the injuries have been like less ruinous. Um, but those things do happen so where the body dysmorphia triggers is I I put on that 30lbs weight. 

01:26:20.10
Jala & Dave
Unfortunately I I lose weight incredibly fast and a lot of that weight's muscle mass like it's just melts off and that's some people like oh that must be nice if you but it's not when my goal is to do a specific thing to maintain that is very hard for me I have a fast metabolism and.

01:26:38.21
Jala & Dave
Really hasn't slowed down. Ah so when I shifted to a more physical jobs because I was doing desk jobs for a while I actually my musculature and my results were the best when I was doing a desk job because I I could um I could remain I could retain.

01:26:57.54
Jala & Dave
The calories I could retain what I was putting in and get muscle out of it. But when I transitioned to doing is my job is on I'm on my feet I'm walking nine miles a day but I still go to the gym. Ah well I'm burning off all of the calories I can so just wasn't eating enough.

01:27:12.37
Moxie!
Right? yeah.

01:27:15.76
Jala & Dave
And that wasn't enough to do intuitive eating I had to like so I had to start counting calories I had to count calories that I'm burning I had to count the calories that I'm putting in and then I started seeing yeah and my macro nutrients and and splitting that between okay I need to. Be having a specific amount of protein I need to have these carbohydrates for the energy I need to watch I need to have some fast because I need that energy too. But I don't want too much of it because then I started getting the um, the dad bod like I was muscle but then I had like a.

01:27:49.34
Jala & Dave
Like a beer belly even though I wasn't like at that time drinking a lot. It's just like that I retain fat right in front of my it's like my the the wasteist and the belly That's where it sits so that would throw off my image and then I had to kind of come to terms with.

01:28:06.76
Jala & Dave
Ah, my goals being to put on weight and muscle. But some of that weight had to be kind of at any cost like I was like dirty buking for a long time like longer than I should have because that yeah that just became well if I eat a bunch and I work out I can.

01:28:23.15
Jala & Dave
I can see the numbers of the weights I'm lifting increasing I can see in the mirror. My muscles increasing in size like I know I'm getting stronger. So it's working um and then you look then you start to look look at aesthetically and going. Well this isn't like what I had in mind. Um, I've now I've created a shape that's like not this isn't a Jackie Chan body this isn't and um, these aren't like my heroes that I thought of as a like men ah should look this is I don't know what I made but it's it's not that and ah.

01:29:01.11
Jala & Dave
Then it became like okay so what am I eating you know how much do I Weigh How much do that weight is muscle because then in the military you get hit with ah the stupid bmi scale which means nothing and they're telling you, you're fat and I'm looking and going. No I'm.

01:29:17.84
Jala & Dave
Undersized for most of the other people and then you're telling me that these other guys are overweight and I've I've seen them wash their clothes on their stomach. That's bullshit. You know they're they're firemen carrying 3 people and jumping out of a helicopter is like this is stupid. You know, but you're you're.

01:29:26.79
Moxie!
Right? yeah.

01:29:36.63
Jala & Dave
Your career is built on these artificial numbers and that just starts skewing your own perception because then you're told that oh you're overweight when you're not or you're underweight and you're you're not your your muscle your body composition is different. So um, Jalla has something to say.

01:29:56.60
Jala & Dave
I just wanted to say for more about Bmi and how the bmi scale was created in the first place and how much bullshit it is and it's all thanks to insurance companies. You can listen to the fat phobia episode. We had a whole talk about that. Yeah, so all all of those things kind of started contributing to me. Like checking the scale picking up a scale that gives you like this is your composition and you can kind of use that as a guideline but that's not going to be exactly what it is ah but it's like oh this is telling you oh no, you're you're 13 % fat and.

01:30:32.85
Jala & Dave
It starts like making you upset or it can and it was making me upset and then I'm looking at my numbers and going I'm I'm doing all this hard work and I know that muscle weighs more than fat and I I can see in the mirror that oh I'm looking pretty good but why hasn't the number shifted ah because I'm reading the scale every day.

01:30:52.63
Jala & Dave
You can't you can't mark changes that way. Um, but it feels like you can because oh surely what gets measured gets improved and so I should measure myself every day I should check the weight if I check it I know I can check it at the same time at least I can I can get rid of ah some of the variables I will use a scientific method. And make this thing work for me and what that ended up doing was like making me anxious and upset like off time because I'm I'm hyper focused on things that um, they're supposed to be.

01:31:31.12
Jala & Dave
Within my control. Ah but I was micromanaging them so much that I couldn't see the bigger picture and that's where I So once I internalized that that's when I had a little bit more control of what was actually happening.

01:31:49.59
Jala & Dave
So that's there's other stuff that happened and that's probably ten years ago but that put me in a position to where I could at least or recognize what was going on and I will yield the floor to you to kind of give any impressions you have on that? Yeah Dave got excited. 

01:32:08.52
Jala & Dave
So yeah, um, David just answered about 5 questions on this list in one go ah so moxie feel free to jump in and and say some things before I I attempt to to go to the next question. But.

01:32:20.93
Moxie!
Sure Ah, what? So yeah I think ah you know in terms of the experience of ah you know the dysmorphia itself. Um a lot of the way it looked for me is um.

01:32:37.86
Moxie!
I have a fairly small frame and so ah, when I was ah working out. Ah you know real heavily. Um I became you know, much much more muscular. Ah much more. Um you know, ripped that sort of thing. Um, never never gotten 6 pack but that's a whole other topic. Ah but um, but the thing is you know so one one of my huge frustrations was ah, there's all these bodybuilding articles that are like. Hey how to look good naked and the thing is ah I don't walk around naked. So like I actually looked great naked like I you know if I was going around shirtless. You know I looked like I was high the gym every day you know.

01:33:34.59
Moxie!
Because I kind. Yeah, maybe not every day. But yeah, you know I mean ah but the problem was you know in my day to day life at least in my eyes which may or may not have been accurate. You know I didn't see much change because you know I you know I'm you know, not really getting you know.

01:33:54.28
Moxie!
Bulkier that that sort of thing and for me a lot of the motivation for lifting was um, you know insecurities about ah you know romance that sort of thing. Yeah, when wanting to get a girlfriend. Um, you know the. And with that um you know one of the big ways it you know, kind of unhealthily ah manifested for me is it's only been in the last year or two that there's been. Any sort of concept in my workouts of um, oh lifting to be healthier because really I didn't particularly care about being healthy. You know I I kind of I.

01:34:45.93
Moxie!
I was looking for results and it was kind of like you know if if sacrificing my health got me where I wanted to be in life then so be it. Um.

01:35:01.25
Jala & Dave
Right.

01:35:05.89
Moxie!
So I mean as you might imagine. That's not the most healthy way to deal with life.

01:35:11.12
Jala & Dave
And and that's something that Raul said in the fat phobia episode as well was something similar where it's like ah in in that episode when we were talking eating disorders and fat Phobia Raul was mentioning that um for him when he. Was hearing about anorexia there was actually to him a feeling of I wish I could be like that because that would get him where he wanted to be he thought um and that's obviously as as a an eating disorder um a medical condition.

01:35:35.76
Moxie!
Is it. Right.

01:35:48.98
Jala & Dave
And that's that's very unsafe and not Good. You know that that's not a a healthy way to go about the thing. So um, that that's a pretty common kind of sentiment and it's it's kind of because like your sense of self-worth gets tied to to these kind of. Means of perception in such a strong way and for you I able to leave it. It was so strongly tied um to just wanting to be in a relationship and all of that that you know like you you tie yourself up into like you. You don't feel. Um.

01:36:25.78
Jala & Dave
Accomplished regardless of how many other things you have accomplished because you have not obtained this one particular goal.

01:36:29.86
Moxie!
Yeah, that that was very much something I was raised with and so yeah, it was kind of a thing where it's like as long as that you know as long all it was almost like as long as I don't have that. I'm effectively not alive and so you know if I have to sacrifice I know 10 years of my life from you know, unhealthy, ah habits. Ah, you know then the alternative is effectively having no life. Yeah, yeah, you know what? I'm saying.

01:37:07.73
Moxie!
Um, luckily I mean luckily I didn't although definitely there were have been things where you know my my workouts of like that haven't been healthy. Luckily I wasn't put in a position where you know like. Could have had access to like ah steroids or something like that that were been truly unhealthy. Ah, but yeah I mean things could have been different. Um the the other side for me and this isn't exactly muscle but more strength is um.

01:37:45.89
Moxie!
You know with the martial arts. Um I'm a I'm a very aggressive person and I you know growing up being ah the ah you know.

01:38:03.51
Moxie!
Smallest person you know in my you know peer group in my grade that sort of thing. Um, there was a degree to which you know, kind of some of the way I dealt with that was just you know. Adopting just an ultra aggressives approach to you know if anyone you know, insulted me or you know that sort of thing you know just being able to you know butt heads and be tough and you know that sort of thing.

01:38:37.97
Moxie!
And so um, this would actually in some ways if we're getting to some of the like if we're talking about some of the like ah like improper perceptions elements of dysmorphia. I think ah for me a lot of ways I think it was often less about necessarily how I looked in terms of you know, looking in the mirror and being muscular and not seeing that as much as it was like you know I've been doing Marsh arts for about. Ah you know 20 years now Um, you know I can um yeah punch extremely extremely hard. However I still struggle with um, being insecure about like you know how much power I can generate. You know that sort of things. Ah, you know, just because of you know, being being used to kind of my approach to every problem being to be able to you know buttheads and be the toughest strongest person.

01:39:50.95
Jala & Dave
Right? And you know that's that's kind of the discussion that Dave and I were having yeah when we were talking earlier this morning off my you know before we were recording because we were talking about say for example, when. I shifted my focus from just generally shrinking my size down and this that and the other and then I was doing like cardio kickboxing and teaching that and then I got into running because I didn't like running like I didn't get into running because I wanted to be smaller I got into running because I hated it and I wanted to not you know like I knew that.

01:40:27.25
Jala & Dave
I hated it because I felt insecure about it and so I decided that I was going to fix that by learning all about it and then when I could do a 5 K I registered for a marathon that I did it from there but like um for me to be the smaller size person. Requires a lot of extra effort. It's kind of the the way that it requires so much extra effort to gain power and size and and just general mass and and strength for people who are skinny Phobic you know or muscle dysmorphic who are slightr of build. Whatever you want to say? um.

01:41:05.93
Jala & Dave
So for me for me to be small takes an immense amount of effort. How many hours did I have to be out there running and doing whatever to get to that size in the first place. How much activity did I have to do you know like at that time I wasn't counting calories or anything but I was burning so many calories it didn't matter you know, but um.

01:41:25.61
Jala & Dave
You know so I had this immense activity that I had to do I found out that I'm very good at endurance I can go forever but you know, um sizewise you know my my body if you leave me alone in just like ah a general state of general activity. I will gain muscle easily easily and I will retain muscle. But um, I'm not going to be on the smaller side I can be and I can adapt my body to that. But that's kind of working at cross purposes to what my body genetically is designed for my body is more designed to be a power build. And an endurance build more than a speed or you know a so you know slender slight fast. You know, kind of kind of person so like um, Dave and I have talked a lot about that in terms of moai because again like for me my style of fighting would be very different than his. Because as assigned female at birth person I will be up against women and those women are going to be most of the time smaller than me, they're not going to be as big as me I'm going to be the big one which means if I'm fighting women you know I'm going to be the powerhouse I'm going to be the big one and you know that's a very different. Situation from what Dave Scott going if he goes up against men so you know, um, we've had this kind of talk because you know I've been thinking about and you know the the jolly chance place episodes in general every time we talk about body stuff. It's always my time to tell everybody who listens to the show about where I'm at with my.

01:42:59.60
Jala & Dave
Evolution constant evolution and in my brain about where I'm at and what I want to do you know I was thinking about okay for Moysai I want to trim up a little bit and I like that's part of it but like it's not like a primary motivator for me. Um, with all the different times that we've been talking about. The emphases that we will be having in everything. Um, if I'm going to work smartly right instead of beating my head against the wall I need to emphasize the strength and endurance that my body is predisposed towards which is to say you know something like. The club swinging and that kind of exercise and you know working on the heavy bag and things like that to develop my power and everything those are things that I can do and then as for formwork like yes I need to work on formwork record myself be next to a mirror so I can see it and work on. Refining my form and everything but I'm going to have to put in a lot more formwork to get to the level that Dave has from his experience. but um but yeah Dave's training style would be different than my training style and you know, um, my my focus for.

01:44:07.77
Jala & Dave
My training because that's been up in the air and I still I'm still trying to figure it out exactly like how I want to design it more specifically but you know that training regimen that I have to do I can just go to the gym and do maintenance lifting and that is enough for me and I will still stay the same size and I don't have to worry about.

01:44:26.68
Jala & Dave
Anything about having the power because that stays with me so fast. So so naturally so you know like my emphasis needs to be on some other aspects and stuff. Um, so you know, um.

01:44:41.54
Jala & Dave
All of this is to say like the talking about these these different forms of dysmorphia and the ways in which we all so because we're all chasing these ideals. Um, whether like to some degree or and or another.

01:44:56.20
Jala & Dave
Ah so many people chase their the body ideals or other other kinds of societal ideals of people. It's so often we're working at cross purposes to what our genetics predispose us towards and it's not that you can't be successful at that. But you're always going to be fighting against a current all the time.

01:45:15.37
Jala & Dave
And like that can get exhausting and like at this point in my life with the number of things I've got to juggle I can't I don't have the spoons the energy the whatever to devote to working at crosspurposes you know, um and so like in in a lot of ways like I'm trying to generate like my own internal piece.

01:45:34.68
Jala & Dave
You know with with where I'm at and also help dave towards a kind of internal piece of his own with um, you know where he's at and and what he wants to do with his goals but um, Dave when it comes to martial arts and having the power behind. Your punch and things like that. Do you have anything to say about that in particular yeah I mean I've I've got to where I kind of want I mean there's always room or there's room for improvement. Um I can be stronger but. I knew I know exactly where I started and where I'm at now is like a vast and it's years it's 2020 years of building my body up to kind of be more functional and be happier with what I've achieved. And I understand like the work it takes to put into something. Ah so I don't feel the need to have to add on to the strength I have now I need to make my body like. Work the best it can with the most with the least amount of effort. Um, and that that sounds a I don't know if that sounds counterintuitive. So basically what what I'm working more with your body. Yeah I'm working with what I have.

01:47:06.73
Jala & Dave
And I've built the foundation that I need um there can I can tweak the improvements but I'm not chasing that anymore. What I'm chasing now is is understanding foundational techniques and and making sure that what I'm doing is. moai moi baran um learning that and taking the time to you have to unlearn other things because they they don't not everything transfers and some stuff is like ah it's counterproductive. Um, because. Yes, the human body moves in a specific kind of set of ways with a few exclusions unless you're like a hyper flexibleible. Everyone kind of moves about the same so most martial arts have a core of how they work. And you just have to kind of keep in mind like the few exceptions are what you focus on ah with mothai a lot of that comes down to stance and how you move and how you kind of deal with your opponent. And those are so unique to it. Um that it doesn't translate as much into other arts or I can't pull as much from what I've done previously into this kung fu doesn't go 1 to 1 into moai.

01:48:37.30
Jala & Dave
Um, but there's enough similarities in the basic movements that I can take the years I put of effort into something else and use that kind of mindset. To make sure that I'm putting that effort into learning the technique behind things because really it it boils down to the minutiae where your foot is here where your hand is here makes all the difference. Want one little tweak or 1 you're out of alignment somewhere. And if your fundamentals in that aren't art aren't solid. Ah your your house of cards falls down. Um you can make up for that with power to a degree like if you have a large larger person. Mean that's why there's weight classes when they do competition so anything because someone that outweighs you by like a hundred pounds there there's very little you can do to make up for that unless you're specifically like no holds barred I punched you in the throat and doesn't you you didn't build muscles up in there. 

01:49:46.22
Jala & Dave
Your your knees don't have a bunch of extra muscles in them. Um, if you break someone's knee or their elbow that their that limb is kind of out of it out of commission. Ah, but barring that a lot of it comes down to you can use technique to sub or to to substitute for power to a degree. And I know that I'm not the largest man and most the folks that I've seen that do Muay Thai at least here. Um are doing that as a side thing and not their main focus. They're focused more on grappling so they're looking at Judo or Jujitsu um some other form. Of Mma and ah, thankfully we've run across a a place and an instructor that is not doing um the modern competitive Muay Thai. It's traditional ancient Muay Boran.

01:50:44.69
Jala & Dave
So the techniques are they're quite a bit different. The stances are quite a bit different. Yeah and because of that I I feel a better connection to that because that trace is a little bit similar to the kempo I was learning. Um, it wasn't.

01:50:46.82
Moxie!
Oh completely. Definitely yeah.

01:51:03.58
Jala & Dave
Ah, it's this.. It's a Shaolin Anc history but it wasn't Shaolin Gong Fu It's a blend of ah other modern grappling arts kind of tossed into it. So The that had hard and soft like Lineage. Um. This Moy but on is it's not soft. It's all hard. The techniques are ridiculous when I started looking into like the advanced um things but those speak to me because they are so they're not ah the the Thai people aren't large.

01:51:31.50
Moxie!
Oh yeah, yeah.

01:51:42.47
Jala & Dave
Um, they're more my size So if it works for them. It'll work for me and that enables someone to go after a larger opponent because you're cracking their skull with your elbow I mean like there's that you're using a harder part of your body. It's a harder style.

01:52:00.98
Jala & Dave
And it's quite Ah, it's It's fairly vicious. Um, but because of that like it. It relies so much on fundamentals on technique on these things where you can spend a lot of your time focusing on the Minutiae and I don't have to worry ah as much about the string because I already have it.

01:52:20.78
Jala & Dave
Ah, that wasn't the case when I started camp' vote um and because of that that alleviates some of the feelings I have for my Dysphoria I can look at myself in the mirror I can see myself in the gym and I don't. Ah, borrowing a few things right? I can Acknowledge. Oh I need a specific muscle thing that will help me do what I want to do like I need to develop something a little bit more but I don't feel like oh this is so so this part of me is so small. It's out of balance and I don't look like. A human like that's where it sat before I was like oh this is I'm just like of a bag of bones and this is ridiculous and definitely. This isn't the body that I I thought I would have um as an adult. Ah.

01:53:11.59
Jala & Dave
Now I can finally make peace with that and go okay I have things I do want to change but they're within my ability to do so because I've spent the time. Um I'm not a certified personal trainer I'm not an instructor. Ah but I've been around people that are. Put in the research I put in the time looking into the science behind it to where I've educated myself and can proceed like forward with that and not feel lacking now now I can make sure that the effort I put into something.

01:53:49.44
Jala & Dave
Ah, it is. It's going the the results of that is going to be um in line with what I'm putting in.

01:54:00.38
Moxie!
Yeah, for me I've found a lot of the things I've been studying with um and kind of these changes I've had to make um have a reason as I've started teaching ah more because.

01:54:16.79
Moxie!
A lot of this stuff I had um, a lot of my background. Ah a lot of the training was fairly rough and Tumble. Ah, you know there, you know there was a lot of just you know. Knocking. Ah, you know, knocking your ah you know forms against other people for forms and eventually you'll get enough. You know, bruises and strength and bones and stuff like that that will stop hurting and ah.

01:54:51.50
Moxie!
You know, a lot of you know the way you learn to dodge is ah you know you do you know, very fast. Ah you know stick. Ah you know, fighting techniques and ah you know when you. When you feel the fear that you're going. You might get hit in the face. Ah you know that adrenaline and Survival Instinct will teach you how to dodge and so as I'm now trying to train other people that maybe don't have that mindset. And um, and learning that you know maybe some of those approaches while in some ways effective aren't always the most healthy way to approach some of those things That's really where I'm having to.

01:55:43.71
Moxie!
I Guess kind of Deprogram some of my history in some of these areas.

01:55:49.39
Jala & Dave
Yeah I can see that when I was doing kempo and this was twenty years ago um almost of the year Actually at this point I was also later in my history of that was involved in in becoming an assistant instructor and.

01:56:06.84
Jala & Dave
Teaching the younger students and at that time like that's when I learned the most about what I'm doing because you don't inherently just see your own flip. It's very hard to like critically look at yourself and go what am I doing wrong here because a lot of times you're focused on. Okay I got this thing right? I'm gonna keep doing that. 

01:56:25.58
Jala & Dave
But when you're teaching someone else and they are doing things similar to what you were doing or they're repeating stuff that you did before that you eventually like had corrected um you can look at that and you can use that to to benefit them because you can go. Okay, here's the stuff and you're not going to of course. Usually tell them this but it's like I know the things that I did wrong and I can see you doing them. So if you do this like that will help you in the long run but I can look at myself and go Okay I'm still doing.

01:56:58.13
Jala & Dave
Some part of that or they're making a mistake that I didn't realize I was also doing and I can fix that and there thereby teaching someone else helps you recognize like what you need to adjust in your own techniques. Yeah, um.

01:57:17.29
Jala & Dave
And on that note being able to like be a little bit more self-critical and then look at things kind of it helps you look at yourself from a little bit more of an outside perspective. Ah, and that's where when I was doing martial arts. Originally I didn't have we had mirrors but I didn't have like.

01:57:37.13
Jala & Dave
A camera or something I could set up and like film myself but we've done that since then so doing Mo tie. We do occasionally like take the time to film ourselves on a camera and then go back and look at what we were doing and I I can look at that and I can know in that moment because we we reviewed it like. Pretty close to when we had done it. Um I can go Okay I felt like I was doing this really really well or doing something like this. But then I can look at it I can see it and go Okay, yes I was doing this part well but this other stuff I need to fix. Yeah, and that's um, that.

01:58:13.60
Jala & Dave
Technique of recording yourself and then reviewing that and comparing that to you know, like what you know the form is supposed to look like even though it wasn't martial arts. That's how I taught myself for the cardio kickboxing when I got certified as a fitness cert instructor for tybo. I would do the tybo videos with a mirror right next to the video and I would watch myself in the mirror right next to the screen where I had everybody on the the tv so I would compare myself actively in the moment when I was doing it using that mirror. But then. If I was training and it wasn't to a video if I was just practicing certain movements that I wanted to perfect I would record I would set up a camera and I would record myself and then review that later and so when David not when we're in class but when we are doing extra practice outside of class. I will always pull out my tripod in my phone and I will record us doing the thing so that I can look at it and say okay these these are some excessive movements. These are some things that I need to fix with my forum I'm aware that I need to work on x but like I'm not going to know that unless I'm actually. Critically evaluating myself by using this kind of method. So um, it's again, it's kind of ah part part self teaching like I can see the the things without a John telling me what's going on wrong like a John knows what I'm doing wrong. He's not necessarily telling me what I'm doing wrong, but he knows what I'm doing. That's not right.

01:59:39.21
Jala & Dave
And um, even if he doesn't tell me I can see his form in class and then I can see myself on this recording and go That's not right and then correct that and go from there. So um, you know like the the method that I use is is ah kind of a self- teaching method like supplemented by self-teaching from.

01:59:58.80
Jala & Dave
Being in class and then doing it on my own and then trying to hone it a little bit better at home. Yeah, and that's tough because it's it's not a 1 to one like that's not a replacement for an instructor or someone else like that's qualified in the thing and fixing. Ah what you're doing wrong and shoring up the stuff you're doing right.

02:00:03.44
Moxie!
Totally.

02:00:17.86
Jala & Dave
Because you need to do look at both of those things you can't just be so critical that you're not acknowledging Oh I know I'm doing something that right, There looks really good. Keep doing that. Um and then just tweak the stuff that's not quite right? Ah, but if you don't have that if you're not doing that outside of whatever your practice is and this this applies to like.

02:00:36.61
Jala & Dave
Not just martallows but like weightlifting or any any kind of pursuit you're doing if you're not taking an evaluation. Um, once in a while and looking with an outside perspective as best you can on what you're doing then it becomes really hard to like make the progress you probably want to be making. So to to tie that back to the muscle dysmorphia because I know we went on a big old tangent about martial arts there. But um, so to tie it back to muscle dysmorphia and things like that. So um, first off, ah 1 last little comment about the the self-recording thing.

02:01:10.79
Jala & Dave
The thing about it. That's great is that if you do that and you're watching yourself and you're analyzing it. You can show the same video to a Jun or your instructor or whatever and say I cannot figure out what it is that I'm doing here that's wrong or why I am doing this movement can you help me and you know then they can say okay do x.

02:01:29.46
Jala & Dave
Right now and then you know they can help you with that with that 1 thing so it's kind of like a way for you to do your homework if you will before you go back to class so about muscle. Ah awesome. Yeah, awesome. Awesome.

02:01:35.72
Moxie!
Oh yeah, we used to we Yeah, we used to record all of our sparring sessions back while we was really in this stick fighting. Yeah that that that thing's huge yup.

02:01:49.50
Jala & Dave
So um, but insofar as like muscle dysmorphia is concerned part of the reason why? um I'm trying to do all these different episodes about different kinds of ways of grappling with body dysmorphia in all, its many forms and the social responses to that. It's because.

02:02:04.46
Jala & Dave
Um, unless somebody is shining a light on it and talking about it and putting it out there and putting it in your head and your ear so you can hear these experiences and this academic information and all this other Stuff. You know you're You're not necessarily. Realizing what you're doing.. It's kind of the same thing as martial arts training like you might be doing the thing and you might think when you're doing it in the moment. Yeah, everything's good. Everything's cool. But then you look at the recording and go oh I'm actually there's these things that I wasn't aware of right? So That's kind of.

02:02:34.63
Jala & Dave
The point of these episodes in the first place is is for that kind of a thing and and that this is something that's not acknowledged so as as much as I said that um everyone like and it's not just the gym space. But that's predominantly where folks will be that have this kind of body this more you will be at the gym. Everyone's helpful. Um, but pretty much um and everyone's positive. But what there is no discussion of is this. It's not you don't go up and people aren't like oh bro, my rear delts lacken like or or you go hey hey. Didn't you realize that you have little chicken legs. You don't like that's not the conversation. The conversations. The positive side of things and then kind of ignoring that unless someone's specifically going hey and I'll try to do this. Oh I'll see someone a um, you have really good triceps like what do you do. For that and then you just pray you pray that they didn't say I was born with these Ah maybe it's Maboline. No they they might say oh yeah for these I hit this set of exercises this works for me and then you can try it and it may not work for you but that gives you at least something maybe that you weren't doing.

02:03:35.98
Moxie!
Great. Yeah.

02:03:51.50
Jala & Dave
Um, and that you can apply that to like other ah walks of life to this isn't just only about body dysmorphia. But if you see people that look like they're experienced in something or they they they're doing something that you appreciate and you're struggling with but they look like they're breezing through it like ask them So what did did you. Did someone teach you where where is that from like what do you do that makes this work for you and most of the time people don't get something for nothing even if you have like a genetic predispositionious but predisposition you still have to put in work.

02:04:28.29
Moxie!
Yeah.

02:04:29.97
Jala & Dave
If you're taking steroids you still have to put in work. You don't just inject yourself and like oh muscles form. That's not how it works if anything um the the folks using steroids put in more time that just allows you to really hammer your muscles. You're going to get exponential growth. You're going to get more growth. Um with.

02:04:49.18
Jala & Dave
Not as with the same amount of work the person not taking steroids will have some gain that people taking steroids will have more and that just allows them to to make the most out of the time that they're putting into whatever it is. It's not a magic solution. Ah. That being said, everyone has something that they do that gets them to where they are now they don't wake up and just they're magically good at something for the most part so use that as an opportunity to like to talk to other people build these networks.

02:05:27.45
Jala & Dave
Those things help you and getting outside feedback can help you deal with your dysmorphia because it's ah it feels like just ah, it's just a me. Everyone else is looking great out there. They're jacked. And why am I not you're you're doubting yourself. You're doubting the effort you put in get some outside opinions. So it doesn't have to be oh no I have to go see a psychologist. Okay, if you have like severe if there's a bunch of these symptoms cropping up that might help you. Um, not everyone else has access to that. So take the time to look at ah try to be critical about yourself and see what ah issues are arising for you and guess what you don't fix everything overnight. That's not that's not how this works take 1 thing pick 1 thing. And work on that and the rest will follow because once you once you address you want to fix it. But once you kind of mitigate 1 issue then you can kind of moot. You can you can give yourself the the freedom of mind and a little bit of less stress. To address the next one because when you have a problem like this. It's not just tied to 1 thing. It's tied to a bunch of stuff or or maybe it is tied to 1 thing figure out what that was. You know that's what when you go to a psychology store. You talk to other people.

02:06:55.63
Jala & Dave
They're feeding back to you The thing you're giving them and they're just kind of letting you get that outside look get that understanding of yourself because ultimately um, everything you have to do it yourself and other people can't do it for you. Um, they can help you but they can't do it for you. It has to be you. Ah and if you need help like you're you're listening to this ask us because if we don't have the solution. We can point you in the direction. That's why this podcast existed exists to make a community.

02:07:24.70
Moxie!
Yeah, yeah, because everyone needs help. 1 hiding put on.

02:07:34.82
Jala & Dave
To help each other so you can be a first time listener or you could have been listening to this while there's problems you may not have discussed with us. Ah, we're all the door is open. It's an open office policy shoot us a message if you don't want to make it public and we can talk to you 1 on 1

02:07:53.22
Jala & Dave
And point you in the direction. Um, you may need. We don't have all the answers but we will not will. We'll find someone who does have an answer to a problem you have? Wow! Thank you Dave I don't even need to be in the room Dave's got it. Dave's got

02:08:12.32
Jala & Dave
Um I did want to tie into ah some of the other questions that I had so one of the next questions was what factor was the largest contributor to the type of dysmorphia that you have and I believe both of you already had mentioned that.

02:08:32.60
Jala & Dave
When we were talking like it sounded like for um, you Moxie it was mostly when it was tied to like the martial arts and in relationships one or the other or both of these is this accurate gotcha.

02:08:42.91
Moxie!
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

02:08:48.96
Jala & Dave
Gotcha Do you have anything further to add about that. What the largest contributor to your dysmorphia is do you have anything further on that.

02:08:59.60
Moxie!
I mean I think for me the the other thing would just be. You know I have a history of depression. Um, you know that sort of thing. So like.

02:09:10.23
Moxie!
And you know that goes in you. You know you mentioned that the cognitive behavioral therapy as you know one of the treatments for these sorts of things. Um, you know that goes into a lot of things that your your address in that sort of treatment. So like things like ah. Um, Oh um, I am blanking on the terms like black and white thinking. You know there's things where it's like I either. Um you know, look like.

02:09:46.20
Moxie!
Whatever I'm trying to look like I know Jason Statham or something or like you know like I'm weak and skinny and like the all a is no like you can be someone between you know you can be someone that doesn't look like a movie star but still looks strong.

02:10:05.69
Moxie!
Ah, so you know there's all sorts of things like that that are um, you know what therapy can help you think about better. Um, the other thing I think this is going to be why the ah later questions is um, you know there's some things with gender

02:10:22.13
Jala & Dave
Yeah, do you want to talk more about that now or you want to just shelve that to the next one where actually we can do it either way.

02:10:30.20
Moxie!
Yeah, wait where you guys think.

02:10:39.70
Jala & Dave
I will say that I'll just interject my the the largest contributor um is almost schwarzenegger. Um.

02:10:49.74
Jala & Dave
Which is why I do a pod I know let me he is my my the source of all my problems and also the source of all my inspirations. Ah what a hero What? a stellar human being only seeks to like lift everyone else up he will fucking lift up the world.

02:10:57.71
Moxie!
Oh yeah.

02:11:08.80
Moxie!
Have have you ever been to the arnold classic. Yeah.

02:11:08.23
Jala & Dave
Um, but oh yes, twice that I was able to make it twice and well we went we just couldn't actually go fuck you covered? Um, but yeah arnold ah I love the man I love the the myth I love the legend. Um. And just you know squad goals but that caused me a lot of anxiety and all names you just made Chris Dominguez from a novel console very upset by saying squad goals. He just posted something on on Twitter the other name but.

02:11:45.84
Jala & Dave
Ah, anyway, okay so Moxie wrapping back to your your gender stuff. Yeah, ok.

02:11:47.46
Moxie!
So well real real quick I do want to say ah with just because it's kind of funny. Ah, what one of the things I love about like I personally. I agree with you I think the arnold classic in particular is a special place and one of the things that always comes to mind with me about like different body types that sort of thing is one of the things about that is it's like 1 of the world's largest or maybe the largest like single. Martial arts and sports um conventions I guess you could call it and it is very special seeing like I know like big musclely ah like mma fighters and like.

02:12:24.61
Jala & Dave
Yeah, the venue.

02:12:40.13
Moxie!
Little like elderly Chinese like Tai Chi Masters like just like on the skylines sidelines watch your performance and just like discussing martial arts and comparing notes.

02:12:50.39
Jala & Dave
Oh yeah or or walking by the room where it's all the the fucking fencers in their bungee cords. Yeah no, it's great because it's a sporting event. It's for everybody anyone doing things with their body like everything and it's fantastic and everyone's so God Damn happy there.

02:13:10.32
Jala & Dave
There's no sad people unless you may be lost but you you're still you made it to the classic like that's that's the thing. Um, but just the venue just the people it's it's so great. Even if Columbus is Columbus Ohio but

02:13:15.47
Moxie!
Oh yeah, totally.

02:13:28.21
Moxie!
Ah, hey now that's where I grew up. Um, go so sorry, go yeah.

02:13:30.73
Jala & Dave
Ah, right? right? Okay, so and it's still Columbus. But ah yeah, well so ah, shuffling off from that tangent though. Um so circling circling back too. Gender gender stuff. Did you want to go ahead and talk on that now.

02:13:48.70
Moxie!
Yeah, so I think for me, um, that has been a interesting dynamic on this. Um you know I'm I'm still at a point where I'm very much in the exploration phase of gender. But.

02:14:04.78
Moxie!
I Definitely think ah you know something that helped me with some of this dysmorphia is learning to understand that. Ah you know gender roles are socially constructed and are you know often very arbitrary.

02:14:24.47
Moxie!
And then also learning to understand like this I know this is going sound dumb that sort of thing but like you know I talked about like one of my problems was. With with my build and the way that um, lifting changes the way I look in like a lot of traditional men's Clothing. You can't ah particularly tell that there's anything different and so just kind of realizing like.

02:14:59.33
Moxie!
Oh like if I want to I can just wear like a sleeveless crop top or whatever and then people can see that even though I don't have huge arms I have like really defined arms or you know you know, just or just you know I can Choose. You know what archetype of Fitness I Want to look like you know if I can decide that I want to you know work out to try to look more femboy style or you know more like I don't know like big must power liftfter bear style or what you know?? whatever. You know, just ah, realizing that those are things that are decisions you can make and that those things aren't um, set in Stone. It has been a interesting experience though. Just from you know my parasor experience. The ah back and forth of caring less about gender and ah yeah, realizing that gender and like that you know quote Unquote Masculinity is. Less important more arbitrary has ironically enough actually made me a lot more comfortable with masculinity because like I realized it doesn't need to be toxic and that sort of thing.

02:16:27.65
Jala & Dave
Right? right? And um, so that's talking about gender and kind of bodybuilding and and picking a physique for you. Um, that's something that Marcus who obviously is not on this episode but excuse me Marcus was. On the fitness and myth myth busting Ama kind of episode and they were talking about that on on that episode and then other episodes as well. Ah I'm not sure which ones um, but look up the history of episodes that Marcus has been on. They have been fabulous on all of them. But.

02:17:02.68
Jala & Dave
Um, and they talked about how when they were growing up. Their father was really into like the bodybuilding stuff and the bodybuilding magazines and being like a you know super rip man and all of that and um, as a result.

02:17:16.68
Jala & Dave
They saw all these magazines growing up and everything but like they were drawn to the phsiques of the women bodybuilders not to you know that? and so like that actually kind of speaks to me too because like on my wall. What do I have I have a bodybuilder a man bodybuilder on my wall over there I don't have.

02:17:21.89
Moxie!
Sure totally.

02:17:33.52
Jala & Dave
Ah, female bodybuilder on there for inso in my lifting room I have a dude a big dude whose he happens to be like six foot 4 and he's ripped in huge you know and that's what I've got on my wall for for inso so I mean like I understand that but um, you know like they were they were interested more in like you know like a fit you know because they also do martial art.

02:17:52.13
Moxie!
Right? Yeah, that would be cool.

02:17:53.60
Jala & Dave
So at some point I need to get you on ah on an episode with Marcus. Just yeah, yeah, but um, so like they they do martial arts and they do all this other stuff. Ah, they also do dance and and so on all these all these different kinds of things but like for them. Um, you know like their their body goals because like when when I met them. And it was because we were going to be doing a bodybuilding on competition actually ah that ended up getting the muscle nerd the they yeah the one that was a dragon con and um, you know like that got borked because of covid and then just like both both of us ended up spinning off away from.

02:18:15.96
Moxie!
Ah, was was this the dragon con. Yes.

02:18:27.59
Jala & Dave
Ah, competitive bodybuilding kind of thing because like the way muscle nerd was supposed to be at that time was going to be more inclusive of different body shapes and sizes and and everything and have like you know and you know like an area for non-binary folks and then muscle nerd was bought out by another company that you know are like bought out by other people who then.

02:18:46.29
Jala & Dave
Changed it to be more of a traditional style competition and both of us were like Nope I'm not interested anymore. You know it's It's not the the thing we were hoping it was going to be but um, all of that to say like they were talking about you know like their their goal is not to be like the big rip. Dude.

02:19:05.77
Jala & Dave
You know, like that's not their goal. Um, and that you know they they feel secure with where they are um you know like they are they're trying to just shift a little bit in their body goals and fight some fat Phobia. Ah that they you know, internalize fat phobia they have that they're dealing with but like you know like where they're at is a little bit different of a place. Um. Because like the way that they approach it isn't from like the I need to be a big dude kind of thing. It's it's from ah I want to have this you know more of commercial arts or or like a feminine muscular kind of build rather than you know like the schwarzenegger kind of build.

02:19:41.78
Moxie!
Yeah, I'm going to check that I didn't realize they were on that episode. Yeah Mark Marcus is a bad as.

02:19:49.20
Jala & Dave
Yeah, they're looking at like ah spider man goals. So that's that live dancer yet like it's it's It's a defined body but it's really about like that full ability to.

02:20:06.96
Jala & Dave
Bend Express so Marcus does contortion does lifting and Spiderman like embodies that just because of that the the web slinging and everything is.

02:20:10.48
Moxie!
Oh cool.

02:20:24.57
Jala & Dave
What you see if you're looking at um, ah pole dancing or ah ribbon work or anything gymnast like it's that kind of gymnast body but maybe a little bit more slender.

02:20:41.10
Jala & Dave
Yeah, yeah, so um, one of the next questions that I have is what is the hardest aspect of grappling with your dysmorphia So Moxie What have you got here? What's what's what's the most difficult thing that you deal with with the dysmorphia.

02:20:51.48
Moxie!
Oh man.

02:21:02.79
Moxie!
I Think for me, um, it's honestly just that things are constantly changing. Um, you know it's.

02:21:18.65
Moxie!
So I a lot of this you know people talk about like mental hygiene and I really like that because well for 2 things 1 like. You know mental health isn't something that like just you fix and it's over you know that sort of thing at the same time I like the hygiene framing because like to me like hygiene is like something that's part of life. So it's it's not like.

02:21:54.88
Moxie!
Oh you know you don't fix it. It's over like you're gonna be struggling with this It's go to suck for your entire life. It's like no, it's just like you know in the same way that you have to go to the gym. You know you know a couple of times a week. It's like no you you just need to be watching your mental health and you know. Bettering yourself and yeah, all those sorts of things. so so I think for me, it's just the fact that I am in a much better place with this that was you know, definitely you know five years ago and even year ago. But you know it's a thing where it ebbs and flows and there's times where I'm feeling insecure and times why ah look at the mirror I'm like that's it. That's a sexy sexy and b um, yeah so yeah I think that's the thing for me is just like.

02:22:51.40
Moxie!
And understand that they're going to be easier days and harder days.

02:22:55.35
Jala & Dave
Yeah, yeah, because as with all of these different things that we talk about these difficult topics that we talk about everything is none of it is a ah linear straight linear path. You know there's always.

02:23:07.19
Jala & Dave
Lots of Curvy Windy you know, wiggly sometimes you backtrack sometimes you jump forward kinds of things you know like the the path is a very weird scribbly mess. It's like if you give you know, ah a very very young toddler a crayon and let them just scribble around on a page.

02:23:21.64
Moxie!
Yes.

02:23:26.15
Jala & Dave
Whatever that looks like that's that's what your path's going to be kind of thing. So so Dave how about you? What is the most difficult thing about grappling with dysmorphia kind of along the same lines. Um I would say mental health issues. There's a lot of things that you can't objectively understand.

02:23:46.90
Jala & Dave
And it took years and years and years and then outside input. Um, thankfully that that came in the form of my wife. So Jala let me know that I am aala man and I have extremely high levels of anxiety that. Aren't um, necessarily something that everyone else experiences for me I thought everyone just walked around with like a ball of butterflies in their gut at any kind of provocation and I was like man. Everyone's just really dealing with this very calmly I'm something's up. Ah, and you know took about 40 years in to go? Oh I just have actually um, clinical anxiety that I need to address and that can be thankfully mitigated through medication. Ah, and with that that allowed me to.

02:24:39.57
Jala & Dave
To be able to be more objective because that took away a lot of the worry. Um that I had in general because the worries weren't about anything in particular they were just about everything in particular and they do and the doom the doom that was going to strike us all down. Ah, and.

02:24:57.80
Moxie!
Sing the doom song.

02:24:58.97
Jala & Dave
Yeah Doomdoomdoom and so without that I it freed me up it freed up some some spoons some head space for me to grapple with things that I didn't ah other things I didn't realize were a problem ah and in doing so kind of like. Took some of the weight off my back to where I didn't have to I didn't feel the need to concern myself with things I'm I'm a pretty easy going guy by Nature. Um Moxie You said you approached a lot of problems with like kind of a bull smash into it nature like.

02:25:37.41
Jala & Dave
That's just what you do to cope? Um, mine is I absorb everything like if something if there's bad energies or Bully or people just being negative I Just absorb it I don't reflect it I just I feel ah in the past. When I've had that kind of issue where it's like a head-on meet head-on and you're just headbutting things. It worked to my benefit to ah recognize the situation and then head it off kind of by either deflecting or like acquiescing So an example would be. When I was in high school and we were doing the track and field and maybe it exists today. I don't know high school life is much different than it was when we were in school. Um, but we definitely had hazing and so.

02:26:24.71
Moxie!
Oh yeah.

02:26:31.24
Jala & Dave
What would happen is we were all the the jv freshmen basically coming into the the team and there was a large hazing event for everyone and some dudes got tossed in the shower with all their clothes on or jammed into lockers and I'm not about that life. So. What I did was I just opened a locker on my so on my own. No one was saying anything to me and I just crawled in there and I closed it and I just I I did the thing to myself first because then they couldn't do it to me and then they were like you can come out of there Dave and I was like oh okay.

02:27:07.41
Jala & Dave
And then but that that was it like that was no because one of you got dump in the trash I'm like I don't want to be dumped head first into a trash can I'll just I'm small I'll just fit myself into the walker and look that there wasn't actually a punishment because I just preemptively punish myself and that's not a great tack. But.

02:27:24.86
Jala & Dave
It worked for me for a very for very many years if I just punish myself first. Um, then I don't have to worry about anything other people can't punish you when you already did it or they feel bad about it and I'm all about making people feel bad about making me feel bad and you know the thing.

02:27:33.14
Moxie!
Oh yeah.

02:27:40.18
Jala & Dave
Is is that like you're sitting here telling me this and I'm just imagining Gooby little Dave going and sticking his gooby little ass in a locker and closing it and just be like is it ok to come out.

02:27:52.59
Jala & Dave
I'm like you know what? Bitt everybody was like what is this cute Gooby little man. We feel bad for him. We need to put up in a blanket. Yeah, they prince. Yeah, it's like we need to give him some cookies and wrap him in a blanket I'm a little shivery while man just feel bad for me for shaking. Yeah right still god.

02:28:08.70
Moxie!
Man I have this is off copy. But yeah I have very very conflated ah or conflicted not conflated maybe conflated. Ah words have meaning guys. Um I have very conflicted.

02:28:24.52
Moxie!
Views of hazing because like on the 1 hand like a lot of the hazing experience stuff I've experienced like has made me a much stronger person on the other hand It's also made me a much angrier person. And it turns out that that's not always. Ah ah, helpful in ah your day to day life. So yeah, no I yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's.

02:28:50.88
Jala & Dave
Don't do hazing folks. It's not people get killed and hurt. Don't don't do bullying Um, you know don't produce. Don't don't don't make don't live that tradition. Don't bring that back like let let let that be gone. Um.

02:29:02.60
Moxie!
Exactly exactly.

02:29:05.99
Jala & Dave
But I do understand what you're saying as far as like that can be a fundamental um your the you that was then was challenged by something and you rose to that occasion one way or the other and your solution was to smack in the face with your face. Um, you know.

02:29:12.84
Moxie!
Right? Exactly whether or not it was a good idea. Yeah, right? exactly.

02:29:24.27
Jala & Dave
Do do what you got to need to survive but you know let's let's not put other people in that situation. Yeah, so I'm just checking the clock and I know everyone's having a lovely time but we got about half an hour to get through like 5 more questions and we've only covered 3

02:29:26.87
Moxie!
Exactly exactly That's a great way to put it.

02:29:41.65
Jala & Dave
So I'm going to move a little faster some of these. Um, so ah, yeah, haze you all with your questions and then da will make me feel bad. So I'm going to have to give him a reward later right? Ok so.

02:29:46.82
Moxie!
Don't haze us with your questions. Jala.

02:29:56.50
Jala & Dave
All right? ah discussing toxic gender expectations. We actually already have talked about this a lot. Um, one thing I wanted to mention about toxic Gender expectations is like the gender Dysphoria that I've I've mentioned it previously the gender Dysphoria that I have of being a naturally ah like large muscled.

02:30:01.13
Moxie!
Yeah.

02:30:15.60
Jala & Dave
Individual who is assigned female at Birth because that's like a site ah the opposite of a skinny phobia. Um, but it is ah a factor where um, you know like I am you know somebody who naturally puts on muscle who then is told that I have to be small but I'm naturally a larger built person. So um, that makes it kind of difficult. We've already actually kind of covered the the bodybuilding culture stuff as well. So I think unless anybody has anything else additional to say and brief about toxic gender expectations Dave you seem to? yeah um, folks remember that a lot of ah. Now. It's not magazines anymore now. It's um, social media social media and influencers and all that shit is curated. It's airbrushed to hell it's aied to hell there's there's not even it's not even people now it's fucking computers um making fake people. To get the kids to buy supplements or whatever. Um, and keep in mind that when they're doing testimonials that's paid testimonials when it's folks that are like oh I take exploen and now my muscles are exploding um, they did not take exploin. They put in all the hard work. They did all this other stuff and if they did take that thing. That's not what tipped the scale. It's all the other stuff that they put in that that isn't acknowledged by um, a lot of the media. So yeah, just there's so much fabrication out there um be more real.

02:31:49.68
Jala & Dave
Um, embrace the dad Bod or the Mom Bo. Whatever just let people be. You know, give that give that expression for everyone give that accessibility ah show all these um, various body types in in underwear commercials. Yeah. Be real about things and on the flip side when you're looking at all things all of these things understand that it's all manufactured and capitalism sucks. Ah so just yeah,

02:32:24.58
Jala & Dave
Understand that that exists and try your best to like deprogram yourself.

02:32:29.32
Moxie!
Yeah, to kind of play off that I I don't know maybe maybe this is widely known I I don't know if people who aren't the bodybuilding know like how you know cycling and stuff like that works like bodybuilders I mean Gri they're always big. You know, mustly dudes. But. Don't look the way they look in pictures most of the year because you know most of the year you know they're balking. They're eating a ton of stuff to build muscle and then when it gets you know more? you know more towards competition season. That's when they start dieting and cutting and that sort of thing and and and even then like you know I this isn't my thing so I don't know maybe I'm giving the time tables wrong, but like a day or a couple days before the you know show there you know.

02:33:23.96
Moxie!
Effectively starving themselves often dehydrating themselves that sort of thing so that at that 1 moment of the show they look maximally you know ripped and stuff like that.

02:33:36.65
Jala & Dave
Right? And that's a topic that all of us talked about Dave and Marcus and I talked about on the fitness myth busting a we discussed it there. We also discussed it when all 3 of us were again together last ah fall.

02:33:43.26
Moxie!
Okay, excellent, excellent.

02:33:52.12
Jala & Dave
To talk about the internet and identity episode when we were talking about social media and fabrication of things and stuff like that and you know like how people will store up pictures. You know like they will will store them up for months in advance or they will reuse old photos and. Followers Don aren't necessarily aware that these are all stockpiled right? Um, that kind of thing. So if you want more talk about that listen to those other episodes of the shows. Ah, we do discuss those in depth in in those episodes. So um, yeah.

02:34:24.56
Moxie!
Yeah, similar to that sorry sorry similar to that you know there's a really cool um article I should have ah tracked it down beforehand this but ah, you know someone did a photo shoot of like the gold medalist and like.

02:34:43.61
Moxie!
A whole bunch of different sports at the Olympics and you know how they all look different which is on itself is a good way to see like the whole like hey there's different ways to be a healthy person. But in particular I feel like something people don't always think about.

02:35:02.35
Moxie!
Is like the reason that like ah say like mixedmar artist and stuff look super ripped and you know look the way they do is because they have weight classes because you're only competing but against people that weigh as much as you do. If they were just strictly Well you even see this with like most ah you know like the super heavy weight divisions where there's no max like they look a lot more like ah you know power lifters or that sort of thing and you know same way that like farmers and stuff like that like.

02:35:40.71
Moxie!
That's not to say if if you want to um, you know, look super gripped and um and you know be a bodybuilder of that sort thing that's great like do that. But like that's not something that you not like humans naturally do in order to be like you know. Optimal Human I don't know sorry that's my soapbox. Sure Definitely definitely well.

02:36:00.76
Jala & Dave
Right? Oh oh yeah, for sure and if you do get that article I'll put the link in the show notes for folks. So um, but that also reminds me that one of the folks in the Discord server was talking about in the wellness channel. I I think it was in the wellness channel somebody was talking about this or maybe it was a dm I'm not sure. Ah so I will I will not mention them by name. But 1 person said something about how um their their kid was like. Oh hey you go to the gym all the time. Why don't you look super ripped like these other people and that was like a big burn and it's like you know that that you know yes in the moment that that made that person feel really bad. Ah, right? and that that just like hit that you've hit them right in the dysmorphia right? But. At the same time It's like that's also an opportunity to have a teaching moment about the fact that um, everybody there like there are different ways to be healthy and there is like you know like people's bodies just have a natural disposition to be built a certain way, especially since that kid's going to grow up and they're going to have to deal with the dysmorphia themselves. Because they very likely will have a body similar to you know their parents so you know like that being the case this is an opportunity to teach them in advance and kind of hopefully make them more aware of something and hopefully help them with their future dysmorphia right.

02:37:23.30
Moxie!
Yeah, totally yeah.

02:37:24.20
Jala & Dave
Yes, good luck child put in all the hard work and look like this. Yeah right, right? Be aware that you are very likely going to look like me when you get older right? exactly? So so that's a thing. Um, so anyway, moving right? along what is your current relationship to your dysmorphia.

02:37:43.86
Jala & Dave
Ah I'm I'm pretty much at peace with it I know it exists but I've done what I can ah to to mitigate it to keep it in the background to acknowledge it to go. Okay, if I'm feeling this particular way. What can I do today. To to deal with that. Um, and just take it on a day by day basis and then make sure I'm doing the things I can eating the things I need to trying to be just be mindful and be healthy, educate myself on what I can do. To be the best me without going too far in like 1 direction right? right? and that but that's one of the things. It's like it's a constant It's not something that goes away. It's a thing that you have to have a hygiene about so I like the way that moxie put that moxie how about you What's your current relationship to your dysmorphia.

02:38:42.86
Moxie!
Yeah, so um, doing a lot better like like I kind of said with the hygiene thing you know things ebb and flow. Um a lot of what I'm dealing with right now is some of the ah. I Guess kind of scars from some of the dysmorphia in terms of you have reference you know sometimes having some Rootdesie or Anger or you know things where I feel like I need to be like super competitive where I really don't.

02:39:16.20
Moxie!
Ah, you know a lot of ah those sorts of things. Um, and then you know like like I kind of referenced ah you know doing a lot of figuring out how these things intersect with gender because ah you know life.

02:39:31.21
Jala & Dave
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so what is the most effective means that you have found to cope with your dysmorphia and that's like for you personally, of course this isn't like a broad everybody kind of kind of answer I think. Dave for you. It's primarily you keep on mentioning education. So I would say possibly the education aspect and being aware. Yeah, being aware of it being aware is half the battle now. Um, being serious being aware of it if you're not aware if you're not like looking yourself critically. And ah and trying to be objective about something like that you you can't fix it. You can't do anything about it all you can do is like s sinknc further and further in and that's tough so you know we can't reach everybody with this but that's why we're doing this episode is. To let other folks know that it's a thing it exists and it doesn't have to be the bl end. All you don't have to suffer all the time. Um, you can't it's hard. You can't accept everything about yourself. Everyone has flaws. Um, but there are things that you can look at. And if you educate yourself, you can make some small changes and those changes will eventually spiral bigger and bigger into letting you change your life in a positive direction.

02:41:03.41
Moxie!
Yeah I I think for me, um, ah I know there's been a lot of things. Ah you know one? Ah, one of them was um, you know find finding role models. Are you know, kind of. Ah, things like that that are more similar to me or similar to kind of what I want to be like a big one for me was ah oh seeing Brandon Lee and the crow where like he's ah you know able to be a super bad ice person even though he. Is kind of more of a slender lanky build. And yeah I guess a lot of that then comes down to you know finding you know, realizing that you get to pick how you want to look and that you can find a. Ah, version of fitness that is attainable for you and that you know meets your goals and those sorts of things and then also shout out to ah you know if you can get it and you need it. Ah you know therapy counseling that sort of thing.

02:42:13.12
Jala & Dave
Yeah, and going along with that that that was a thing like reevaluating. Um your role models and that doesn't mean like getting rid of the ones you had in the past because maybe the thing that you found. Attractive about them in in a role model sense is still valid. So for an example so looking at Arnold Schwarzenegger um I can't emulate his physique I can look at myself physically and go without like extreme body modification and steroids and a bunch of other things that's not tenable. Um, that's not going to happen I'm not ah a six foot 2 dude um I'm like barely five foot eight so taking a look and taking a stock at um, if there's an activity. You do then be body building. Whatever it is martial arts and look at the weight class that you're probably would be in look at people that do the same thing you do and. Look for similar body types find a role model that way because that's tenable. That's something doable. You can find someone that's about your same size and weight and use that as your inspiration I'm not I'm not saying like don't aim for the stars because you the the higher up you reach? um.

02:43:29.38
Jala & Dave
That further goal if it's attainable ah can get you to great heights. You know you can achieve a lot and doing that. Ah, but I I have to come to I have to come to the grip said okay I can't be an alm schwarzenegger. Maybe I can look like jetley. Has like my closer to my body type be be be ambitious, but realistic with your goals and that will help you not beat up yourself quite as much when you're not hitting them take again, take things step by step. It doesn't have to be hey change 1 thing. It's like change one.

02:44:08.76
Jala & Dave
Change one attribute or 1 thing you're doing to make that a habit and then once that it's a habit work on the next thing because you can't change anything without them being habitual and being the thing that you now just is your life That's what you do um. Stuff doesn't happen overnight. It's so it's a long everything you do is a long term game. We're all in this to have healthy long lives except for moxie who's willing to give it up. Not no, no, no, that was that was in the past yeah that that was in the past that was in the past that's that's that's not the current iteration of moxie.

02:44:33.74
Moxie!
Yeah, that was past Moxie. Unless I can become a sexy robot in which case I think technically I would not be alive. But.

02:44:50.87
Jala & Dave
Ah, look. There's a man out there who is willing to put a computer chip in your head that's step 1 to becoming the new cybernetic organism I'm not endorsing that I'm just saying if you want to be a robot. there's there's um there's a way. So.

02:44:54.39
Moxie!
Yeah, but that man is crazy unfortunately.

02:45:05.12
Jala & Dave
Okay, moving right? Along. So um, what do you wish that other people understood about this particular type of dysmorphia or or phobia skinny phobia or that kind of thing that it exists and you are valid. Like you live in your fields understand that understand there's there's resources. There's people that feel the same way you do and it's something that you don't have to smash your head against all the time and maybe you don't maybe that's something that you don't see every. Waking moment of your day. Maybe it's just you're sitting here doing a podcasting and then I'm looking down and going I got these little tiny hot dog legs and then getting upset at myself. But then going Actually you know what? I've been acknowledge your triumphs I've been putting in work I know that I'm doing the things. That I need to do to make myself better and then pat yourself on the back when you need it because if you don't appreciate and love yourself and acknowledge the hardships you're doing is getting something done then. Then you're relying on only external motivation and appreciation and you're not you don't get to pick that you don't get to have that all the time so give yourself some kudos to the the hardship that you're putting yourself there because if you're feeling if you're dealing with this body dysmorphia. Um, it's hard.

02:46:36.60
Jala & Dave
Ah, life's hard. Life's not easy. It's not always fun and it can maybe it can maybe feel a lot less fun. Um on a daily basis so give yourself small victories and and use that as stepping stones to pave yourself. The way to a ah better future I love how Dave is has adopted the jalla approach of getting on the soapbox and given the inspirational speech like I'm I'm cool with this because I can just go over here and I don't feel like I get to be motivational very often and this. This feels like a good spot where I have the confidence to do so and I'm taking I'm taking my moment and I'm I'm running with it I'm I'm taking that Torch and I'm shining I'm shining baby is shiningine like a star up in this. Okay, whatever is a shine on Dave all right? So um.

02:47:22.96
Moxie!
Nice.

02:47:33.22
Jala & Dave
Moxie Ah, how about you? What do you wish other people understood about this this kind of muscle Dysmorphia skinny phobia stuff.

02:47:43.28
Moxie!
Sure so this might be a little different but I think um 1 thing that I think people sometimes overlook is you know you'll sometimes see you know people that are generally speaking. Um, you know, very. Body positive you know, progressive sorts of people that um sometimes can have a little bit of a blind spot in this area. You know you know whether it'll be like.

02:48:16.10
Moxie!
You know, making fun of like incels is like oh they're just these you know skinny dudes that you know live in their parents' basement and you know are pasty white because they never see this on and you know realizing that like even if some of that might. Ah, some of those sorts of things. Ah you know might be well intentioned or coming from um, understandable things that they can kind of ah perpetuate. Um, you know some harmful um.

02:48:50.86
Moxie!
You know stereotypes or whatever.

02:48:52.91
Jala & Dave
Um, yeah, yeah, and that's that's part of the thing like um, commenting on people's bodies and and giving them shit about existing in the world. Whatever way they exist and this is not just dysmorphia body dysmorphia body stuff. Also you know like cultures and class and and gender and all these other things like the way that people exist in the world generally speaking you know like ah their strengths their weaknesses. Ah their quirks, their habits all of these different things. So the way that they move through this this world. Trying to to comment on that ah can very very quickly become stereotypical and reinforce microaggressions and things like that that end up putting a lot of stress and pressure and negativity on others and you know just let people be the way that they are and you know accept them as they come. You know, whatever way that looks you know accept them where they are so for sure. Um, and 1 final question before we wrap up this episode. How would you prefer that other people respond when you are feeling dysmorphic.

02:50:04.94
Jala & Dave
I don't talk to other people don't ah, you're laughing by wayI don't you talk? Okay I do yes I talk to Jala you want me to respond. Um.

02:50:20.55
Jala & Dave
Again, Ah reinforcement So positive reinforcement look at the ah take stock of the things that are working and like reinforce that um, don't don't point out flaws if you can help it because. We do that all the time too much and that's the problem. Ah try to be positive and engaging in the things and behaviors that that are working So if it's a bad day and. Someone's at the gym and they're just like beating themselves sort of the head or ah so on something on ah on a flaw that they see um, look at the stuff that that is working and encourage that or or say oh you know? Yeah, you're you're you having an issue with like this part of your body. Um, what? what are we doing to like shore that up. So Let's do. Let's do some more of that just positive reinforcement really ah of of behaviors that seem to be working that's that's the that's the key thing for yourself and then for others like helping you Out. Um. Is really just making sure that the good habits continue and then helping make other things that need to be improved also into a good habit rock on. How about you Moxie How would you prefer other people respond when you are feeling dysmorphic.

02:51:57.50
Moxie!
Sure Um I don't know if this is normal but at least for me like you know I Definitely Appreciate. Um, you know, positive feedback and constructive advice that sort of thing but you know it's important to be honest, um. You know, just giving in my opinion just giving ah you know compliments just because just a I don't know you know don't do toxic. Ah Positivity I Guess if that makes sense.

02:52:27.99
Jala & Dave
Right? right? You want it to be like realistic and you're you're reinforcing positivity and you're being sincere right? Not um, toxic Posit Positivity gets into the realm of being unrealistic or you know ah glossing over things and being flattering without being. Ah, based in an actual sincere feeling of a thing. Yeah, just you know, um, no one wants. Well most people don't want to just hear lip service. They want something that's sincere if you're asking for constructive Criticism. Ah, or.

02:52:55.68
Moxie!
Right.

02:53:02.21
Jala & Dave
Just some feedback and you're feeling down and it's like don't don't surface level comment on Stuff. You know, be just see what someone's saying and acknowledge that. You know? Um, if if you're feeling down about a thing don't take pains till or if someone if someone's feeling down about a thing don't take pains to like point that out like oh yeah, that's always been a problem right? Like no, don't don't do that. That's that's that's messed up you know. Um, engage with something that you know is going to be a thing or so if someone's feeling bad about something acknowledge the ways that that thing um has been improving for them because it's obviously something they've been working On. You don't you don't point you know. You're not upset about something that you didn't put any attention into you're upset about stuff that like you feel isn't working because you've been trying to fix right? right? and part of that too is just making sure that that person's concerns are feeling and and their feelings feel are are um.

02:54:15.12
Jala & Dave
Validated like you you are saying that they they are valid and feeling their dysmorphia that is you know like you're acknowledging that part of it as well like the difficulty of the thing that they are feeling you know I understand that you are feeling you know bad about this particular thing but here's some you know. Then you turn it and then you get into all the stuff that you want to talk about like the the positive. Well here's some things that I've noticed remember when blah but you've made this much progress Blah Blah Blah or however it is that you know that that person handles it from there. Yeah, you know don't flip it around and be like. Oh that's weird I don't have any problem with that. That's the opposite of adding something that's helpful or the dreaded you shouldn't feel like that because don't don't tell people don't tell people that they shouldn't feel something like like I know I've I've I've caught myself.

02:54:53.62
Moxie!
Right.

02:55:07.43
Jala & Dave
I catch myself sometimes do that I've done it on the show and I'm thinking about that that 1 time that I did the thing and I'm like I shouldn't be saying that thing sorry I need to not do that thing because it's it's a society ingrains that in you but ah try try not to do that. And and not everything has to be uplifting. You can just you can commiserate you can sit in that with them too. Yeah, sometimes that's what people want just like hey acknowledge that this is a shitty situation or I'm feeling real shitty. Yeah, you know that that does suck um and and and spin it a little bit to be like that sucks and that's.

02:55:25.88
Moxie!
Yes, totally.

02:55:42.33
Jala & Dave
That's really rough right now. Will it feel that way tomorrow. Let's you know let's hope not let's what what can we do to make that so it's not going to be the state that you're just sitting in. Yeah um, and that's rough and ah we understand. You know that's an understood. We're humans too and that's just a bunch of bullshit. So yeah, um, let's what can what in order to ask hey what can I do to help what would make you feel better right? now you know extend that to. Um, because some people want that and have something that they're thinking of and they can't do it for themselves right? Sounds good to me so we're about 3 hours in which is about the time limit that we've got so it is time for us to pull out the egg timer on. And head on out. So with that. We need to talk about where people can find you on the world in the world if you may be found anywhere. So ah moxie you happen to be an internetcrypted so you exist only in select spots on the podcasts that you pop up on.

02:56:55.43
Jala & Dave
And you're in the Jala-chan Discord and you are in the Duckfeed Slack and those are about the only places that you may be found am I correct?

02:56:59.35
Moxie!
Yep.

02:57:05.70
Moxie!
Yep, check out thelevelpodcast.com or duckfeed.tv

02:57:11.51
Jala & Dave
Right? there you go and Dave how about you where in the world. Do you exist you can find me on I'm just gonna call it Twitter because I hate fucking x I'm sentionaut_plus the same on Bluesky I think no under no no underscore I'm just senplus I'm just senplus.

02:57:19.68
Moxie!
Oh yeah, no no.

02:57:29.62
Jala & Dave
Bluesky I don't go there. Um, it's a nice place I hear. Ah, ah, you can really just kind of email me through monsterdear.monster or monsterdearmonster@gmail.com or um, you can get a hold of the rest of the Monster Dear Monster crew at monsterdear.monster right. And you're also in the Discord of course. So um I of course can be found anywhere on the internet that I may be and actually out in the world at large like we talked about this sometime somewhere but I'm literally Jala-chan like on all of my little name plates and this that and the other when I ran marathons it was Jala-chan on my little name plate. So I am everywhere, Jala-chan that includes jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the other episodes so that is all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile.

[Show Outro]
Jala
Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!

[Outro Music]