Chelsey: 00:00:03 Have you been zombified by conspiracies? Dave: 00:00:08 Oh, I used to be until I started listening to Zombified with our patented subliminal, anti-conspiracy [Athena laughs] undertones that strengthen your brain. Chelsey: 00:00:19 I have to say that this, this whole episode got a little bit meta at times, where I was like, wait a second. Like, is like thinking that we're zombified, does that mean that we are like a conspiracy theory podcast? Dave: 00:00:33 Maybe? Uh- [Laughter]. Chelsey: 00:00:38 But I think, and we decided no that- Dave: 00:00:42 Well... Oh, did we? Okay. [Laughter] I thought we sort of decided that everybody is sort of this, this, there's some sort of conspiracy theory that encompasses all of us. Chelsey: 00:00:53 That is true. I mean, like there certainly are conspiracies out there. The question is just, right, if it's like one entity that is controlling everything, or whether it's many entities with different interests, some of which may be conspiring against us. Dave: 00:01:10 That's true. [Athena agrees] Or is it everybody except the listener and we all are in on it? And we're just not telling, we're just not telling you at home. Everyone is in on it, but you. Chelsey: 00:01:20 Like a Truman Show kind of scenario? [Dave agrees]. Yeah. Dave: 00:01:25 [Laughter] So who are we talking to on today's episode of the Truman Show? Chelsey: 00:01:32 [laughter] We have a totally amazing guest. So, Chelsey Weber Smith is the creator and host, producer, et cetera, of the podcast, American Hysteria, which looks at like all of these wild things that Americans believe, including, but not limited to, conspiracy theories. And today, we talk with them about all of these different layers about conspiracy and conspiracy theories and how also their experience growing up with a conspiracy theory dad shaped them. Dave: 00:02:11 Yeah. Which sounded actually way more fun than I was expecting. Um, so the idea of like having a conspiracy theory dad- Chelsey: 00:02:20 You're saying, you wish your dad was a little more prepper and a little less professor? Dave: 00:02:24 Gosh. Um. [Laughter] I think my dad may be more prepper than- [Laughter] Oh, let's just move on. [Athena agrees] Oh, who are we, by the way? Chelsey: 00:02:40 Yeah. Well, I am your host, Athena Aktipis. Psychology professor at ASU and Chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. Dave: 00:02:48 And I am your co-host, Dave Lundberg-Kendrick. Media Outreach Program Manager at ASU and brain enthusiast... or am I? Chelsey: 00:03:00 Apparently, son of a prepper-professor, so... [Laughter] Dave: 00:03:04 Apparently, yeah. [More laughter] And so, today we're talking about conspiracy theories! Chelsey: 00:03:11 Yeah. Where they came from, what the sort of, you know, disgusting underbelly of some of them is. And also, you know, what the, you know, kernels of truth are behind some of these conspiracy theories. So it's, I think a really interesting episode because, you know, we hear a lot about conspiracy theories, but at least, you know, for me, like, I feel like I don't really know exactly what they're saying or proposing. And, uh, it was, it was just a way for me to kind of wrap my head around some of these issues with conspiracy theories that I hadn't really been exposed to before. Dave: 00:03:50 Yeah. So, I think it was really fun. Like I mentioned in the episode, I, way back in the day, went to some 'George Bush Caused 9/11' rally with my friends. So, I've had some conspiracy theory exposure before. Um, I really like conspiracy theories. So, uh, I thought it was a lot of fun. [Laughter] Chelsey: 00:04:12 And I kind of love to hate them. [Dave laughs] But I think, I think like it, it's a really, it's a really interesting window into human nature. You know, why are we vulnerable to them? Um, and you know, I mean, the thing is like, they're also kind of fun for people [Dave agrees] and more fun than reality sometimes and simpler than reality. So I don't know, those are all things about this podcast that I really enjoyed. And I, I think our listeners will have a great time hearing from Chelsey and, uh, getting a little bit more insight into why we sometimes believe the things that we believe. Dave: 00:04:55 The truth! Alright. [Laughter] Chelsey: 00:04:59 Alright. Let's hear from this week's fresh brain, Chelsey Weber Smith. Intro : 00:05:05 [Psychological by Lemi] Athena: 00:05:41 Chelsey, welcome to Zombified. Thank you so much for being on this podcast. Uh, I'm so excited to learn all about conspiracy theories from you. I have so many burning questions, uh, about them. Can we start just by introducing yourself in your own words? Chelsey: 00:05:59 Yeah, definitely. And thank you for having me on, I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. Um, as you know, it's, it's personal to me, uh, part of the impetus for my show, which is called American Hysteria. We cover all sorts of fantastical fears of Americans and how, why they happen and how they affect our culture and our politics. Um, and a lot of that is conspiracy theories. And I grew up, uh, with a, uh, conspiracy theory dad, who was also a prepper, which you guys, uh, are interested in. I know a little bit. And, uh, so I grew up kind of with stories of the Illuminati and kind of that government-takeover stuff and mixed with a lot of new age gobbledygook, you know, these sort of big 2012 things, like the whole apocalypse in 2012 was a theme for many years, uh, in my life. And slowly I started becoming interested, not in the conspiracy theories as being real, but in them as being influential in our psychology and our culture. So I wanted to- it's partially personal, right? So I'm kind of coming to terms with my own, um, misconceptions, misinformation, um, and even the ways that I've, I've spread misinformation and then attempting to use my own experience as well as just a lot of in-depth research to kind of change my own mind and then hopefully help people get out of those types of thinking, which are obviously a huge problem right now. Athena: 00:07:36 So you really got into this whole area of study and investigation from your life experiences growing up in that household where like, it was all about prepping for the 2012 Apocalypse? Chelsey: 00:07:49 Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was, he was my 'weekend' dad, so it wasn't, I wasn't steeped in it all the time. So I kinda came in and out of this, uh, this world that, uh, yeah, has really colored everything about my thinking, and now the way that I try to process and reprocess information. Athena: 00:08:10 Wow. So, so it was your 'weekend' dad. So it was like on the weekend, you're like in prepper mode and like the apocalypse is coming and then like- Chelsey: 00:08:19 And protesting the Iraq war. [Laughter] You know, I'm doing all these different things. Yeah. Yup. Athena: 00:08:23 And then like during the week, was it just like going to school in suburban America [Chelsey agrees] kind of, or like, what was that? Yeah? Okay. So you had like those two alternative worlds growing up. Chelsey: 00:08:36 Yeah, uh, pretty normal, on one side and pretty weird on the other. Um, so, so I think that that is a balance that I've had of normalcy and skepticism and then very fantastical types of, uh, thinking. Athena: 00:08:51 So can you paint a picture for us of like, you know, when you were growing up and you were at your dad's on the weekends, like, what were you guys doing to prepare for the apocalypse? Or what were you talking about? Like what was that like? Chelsey: 00:09:08 Well, I think what really inspired everything that I do was the change between the beginning of the conspiracy theory, which was much more spiritual and that it was about love. And that was like a big 2012 thing was, was the Age of Aquarius and all these new age ideas about how love was going to transform the world and that we were moving into a new, more progressive eon and all of this really nice stuff. And we talk about how we'd have this beautiful commune and different things, like, that felt nice. And that, you know, like when you're far away, you're like, oh, we'll have a new renewed world and all of these problems will melt away and we'll live in like a beautiful grassy expanse, planting our food. And, and then sort of, as it got closer, the paranoia, the, the collection of food, which isn't a bad thing necessarily, but the intensity kicking up to being like, we need to watch stuff about how to purify water. We need to do these things. And the mood got really dark. So it went into this place where I no longer could connect with it. And it got so crazy, you know, it was like, all the volcanoes on earth are going to explode at the same time. Like these very, you know, there's going to be thousand foot waves that are going to wipe out our cities and it's all going to happen on this day. And so it got, I grew up, you know, and I was in my early twenties by the time, uh, 2012 actually happened and obviously that didn't, uh, occur. Um, so, so yeah, I think that the darkness and how, how there was, and I learned, a very dark narrative underneath the stories of say the Illuminati or as they're called now, the Deep State, um, a lot of antisemitism and, and different things that I hadn't seen until I really started exploring the, the background of these theories. And so it was that kind of like decline into the darker aspects of the paranoia, um, the paranoid style in American politics, you know, the, that we, uh, that, that really just made me want to not be in that world in any way, and perhaps help people get out of it because I know what it's like to be, to be in that kind of thinking. Athena: 00:11:33 It's interesting, because my understanding is that it's a fairly common thing, also with like cults, that they draw people in with like the positivity and like the love and the bonding and like, you know, we're going to have this, you know, like really, idellyic kind of, you know, utopian life, right. And then it gets darker and darker and darker. [Chelsey agrees] Um, but- Chelsey: 00:11:59 And suddenly you're like a white supremacist, right? [Laughter] Like this, ooh, yeah. Athena: 00:12:03 Wow. Chelsey: 00:12:04 Yeah. I mean, I never got to that point. That was the trigger moment because somebody said to me, I was talking about, [Chelsey laughs] you know, uh, the elite controlling all of these aspects of our lives, which isn't untrue, but, you know, in a much more sensational, complete control. Um, and then one day I was talking to someone who also believed in this type of thing and they said, yeah, the Jews control everything. And I was like, oh, whoa. Like that was, 'cause I've never been, I've always been a very left-leaning person. So when I heard that, I was like, "Ooh, that's weird. I don't, I don't know what you're talking about." And, you know, I just, I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." And then I started to, to investigate it and we got down to like the bones of it, which I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about eventually. Athena: 00:13:00 Yeah. Well, I would love to hear more about that actually, but Dave, it looks like you want to jump in. Dave: 00:13:05 Well, I was going to say, I mean, it's like, so as somebody who's sort of, like, I remember like in 2002 going to like a 'George Bush Caused 9/11' sort of rally, you know, with some of my friends and like always sort of being rather skeptical of the government and things like that. Um, like as I'm hearing this, I'm like, it's a weird mix, you know, because I could see how, and I've heard things like, I remember like being in like, so I went to film school and I remember being in Texas and listening to like somebody who was listening to something on the radio, like I was in like a convenience store and it was like, oh, the homosexuals are putting women in television shows to steal your husbands. And I was like, I know the guys who are putting like women in these television shows. They're not thinking about your husbands. You know? So some of it seems crazy, but some of it also seems like, I'm not saying Bush caused 9/11. But like, I think that for me at the time really tapped into this sort of idea of, I'm not sure the government is worried about protecting me. And so the idea that the government could have allowed, you know, the idea that the government allows bad things to happen to U.S. citizens still doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Uh, and so I think I have somebody who's sort of still in the middle in this sort of conspiracy theory thing. You know what I mean? Um, like, I don't know, some of it's still seems very scary. So, um- Chelsey: 00:14:41 I think the interesting thing too about that is when you go back to the Bush years, the Left was much more likely to be promoting this type of conspiracy because it was, it was about Bush, right? It was about 9/11 and it was about the Patriot Act and all these things. Um, and it kind of trans- I mean, it's always been a Right Wing story, which is the complete control of the government and that, that extends, um, whoever these elite people are, who are often the Jewish Cabal is what they're called. Um, and that story stretches back to the Bolshevik Revolution and all, and it was a huge part of Nazi Germany and the Eugenics Movement and all these, uh, really scary things. And I think the important distinction is that conspiracies exist. We know this. Bohemian Grove, which is a place that rich people go, politicians, media people, you know, people, just famous folks, that have influence all go to this secret meeting for two weeks in the Redwoods. And they do all kinds of weird- they put on a weird play where it seems like they're sacrificing something, which of course plays into this. We're hearing more and more of the satanic panic again. And what it, what the difference really is, is like the overreaching conspiracy versus these small issues that are really nuanced, that are often problems that are happening behind the scenes and are constructed. But the Illuminati is not, doesn't exist in that there's not a concerted joint effort between Hollywood, politicians, world bankers, to dominate the world. That's, that's where it gets, you know, and, and often they're satanic, which we'll get to also I'm sure. [Chelsey laughs] Dave: 00:16:36 Can I, can I just go back real quick? You were saying Bohemian Grove, I've never heard, is this an actual thing or is this just a theory? This is like a real thing? [Chelsey agrees] What is this? Chelsey: 00:16:45 So yeah, I can explain it. Uh it's, it is exactly what I said. So they go to 'revere the redwoods', um, which is what their website says. I actually found myself outside of there. I knew about it from, honestly, if you want the truth, Alex Jones, because he used to not be, he used to be into this stuff. And so was I, and it was before he went all the way to the insane side. I mean, he's always been, you know, crazy, but I like to admit that upfront, but- [Chelsey laughs] Uh, he went and kind of infiltrated this and he made all these films of them wearing these robes and praying in front of a stone owl with this giant fire and chanting. It's very haunting and it's real. You can see it, and- Athena: 00:17:35 And it sounds kind of like a cross between summer camp and Harry Potter. Chelsey: 00:17:41 Yeah, and, uh, satanic cult, I guess, you know, like- Athena: 00:17:45 Alright, awesome! Chelsey: 00:17:46 Perfect. [Athena and Chelsey laugh] All the things we love. Um, but they, uh, basically I ended up camping, uh, with people right around there and their family had worked there for generations, and they had all these crazy stories and, you know, they said to me, they wear robes and they do all this weird stuff. Uh, they put on, they do fake sacrifices. And of course, when I was a conspiracy theorist, this was like, to me, I was like, "Oh my God, you know, this is real stuff". Um, but then when you really get down to it, it's mostly just a weird, like grab assay, frat party, you know, they just like, [Athena laughs] it really is. They just smoke cigars and they, you know, do all this weird stuff and they do put on, it's the called the Cremation of Care. And it's a weird play. And I don't really know. I mean, it's some kind of tradition, but it's like the whole fratty, it's just like a, uh, adult frat initiation or something. Um, but of course it gets blown up into it being like one of the basises of all conspiracy theories is satanic, you know, power. So they're generating some kind of satanic power altogether out in the redwoods. So, uh, to your point, David, some of it is true because they undoubtedly go there and make decisions and make deals and decide things. Um, but it just doesn't reach out into some very concerted joint effort between all of these different liberal, uh, institutions. Athena: 00:19:21 One of the things I think is so interesting about conspiracy and conspiracy theory in relation to this zombification idea, is that there's sort of two sides to it. Right? One is like the whole conspiracy theory notion is almost like, hey, we're being zombified, right? Like that's like a lot of the root of conspiracy theories- we're being zombified or someone else is being zombified. The children are being zombified. Um, but then the conspiracy theories themselves, will zombify people as well. Chelsey: 00:19:53 Absolutely. Athena: 00:19:54 So, so it's sort of weird, right? Because like on some level, like, you know, I totally get this, like you should, you know, be a little bit suspicious of like what forces are actually controlling your behavior or the things in the world, right? And investigate that. But then that, like, desire almost to try to understand what's going on, can lead down this pathway where you get hijacked by the conspiracy theories themselves. Chelsey: 00:20:25 Absolutely. And I mean, they're all, they're all just, it's just fear. Right? And fear makes us simplify things into categories of us and them. And it makes us, uh, really want to stick to and double down on what we believe is true. And so it's, it is both things because the stories are often, I mean, the gay agenda is a great example of a conspiracy theory in which, um, the schools are indoctrinating children because, you know, a new, a new, uh, curriculum includes one mention that like some people are gay or Tinky Winky from the Teletubbies being a secret gay agent that's trying to teach children to be gay, whatever, you know, um, which is connected to a lot of other conspiracy theories. But you know, this indoctrination- fluoride in the water is a good example, that the government's putting fluoride in the water to control our minds. Um, and of course the media, uh, is, is creating a liberal agenda. Um, and what else, what are other good ones? Um, you know, that Satanists are controlling the media and Hollywood and they're degrading our morals and destroying the nuclear family. And, uh, and it is, you're right, that it is hugely about mind control, even vaccines. Some people believe that that, you know, causes autism. Um, and then some people take that farther too, that it is kind of creating a zombified nation. Athena: 00:22:02 Yeah. So, so many levels of zombification. [Chelsey agrees, laughter] So, uh, Chelsey, you brought up this issue of fear, right? Like that fear is one of the kind of vulnerabilities is that makes it possible to hijack people this way. Are there other kind of, you know, mechanisms or like ways that this zombification via conspiracy theories happens from your perspective? Chelsey: 00:22:32 Yeah, let's see. I think that a lot of, we talk a lot about moral panics, which, um, happen during times of social change, a lot of the, a lot of the time and, uh, all these conspiracy theories often exist to uphold, um, a status quo and often that of the past, uh, which has also a big fascism- conspiracy theories are a huge cornerstone of fascism, and that's what I've been reading a lot about lately. Um, but hearkening back to this past, right? Like Trump does hearkening back to a time when things were great. Um, and then also about how liberalism especially is, or progressive values or whatever is destroying the cornerstone of our society, which is the family, um, and the patriarchal head, uh, of a white nation. Um, and a lot of it isn't, I don't think that people who believe this always know that the root of it is kind of a racial or sex-based anxiety, um, or even sexuality-based anxiety. Um, but a lot of it will target the White Patriot as sort of the ultimate victim. Um, who's been maligned, especially white working-class. Um, who's been maligned into, uh, subordination to a feminist, queer, uh, liberal agenda. Chelsey: 00:24:05 And so we see Trump essentially right now claiming that, um, the new movements to include racial justice curriculum and a true understanding, uh, 1619 Project, um, of our past and, and people want to seemingly, uh, replace that past, even though it's not replacing it. That's what's so funny is we finally got like a little bit of truth in our education curriculum about slavery and the Civil Rights Movement. And that was, that was too much right. So, so, um, it's about going back and scrubbing away the injustices that have led to movements, um, and then making those movements more of a concerted effort to harm the powerful and, and, and take away their rights and take away the white majority. That's a big thing about- is, is the white genocide, meaning that white folks are producing children at a slower rate and will become eventually the minority in the country. And of course, that's, that's scary for people because they've seen how we've treated other minorities. Um, so it really does connect to social fears. Um, and we see a lot of conspiracy theories popping up around Obama, right? We had our first Black President and the conspiracy theories, including the birther conspiracy. Those were, they were huge then. And they've just sort of continued on into the Trump administration, I think, as, as justification for the pendulum swinging back toward, um, upholding this old idea of what America is supposed to be. Athena: 00:25:57 Right. Chelsey: 00:25:58 Does that all make sense? Dave: 00:26:01 It's, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of different theories going on. [Chelsey agrees] I, so I have a question sort of on the zombification thing of like, where did these come from? You know, what, what starts them, what causes them to, to spread essentially? Athena: 00:26:22 Yeah. I mean, I would even say also, just originally, like, what is the seed of this? You, you know, you, you mentioned a little earlier kind of some connections to Nazi Germany, [Chelsey agrees] connections to fascism. Um, can you give us like a brief history kind of, of conspiracy theories? Like, you know, where did they come from? And what's the pathway to our present, now? Chelsey: 00:26:45 I mean, conspiracy theories are, I think part of our sort of biological DNA almost because conspiracy theories are always about creating an other and also often about creating a self-victimhood. Um, and so, and a lot of times that victimhood serves to sort of justify other actions, um, when the colonists came over the stories of indigenous slaughters, uh, blood drinking of babies, like, cause we're hearing these things again now. We're hearing that the Democrats are sex trafficking children and doing satanic rituals, like this is- politicians are spreading these ideas now, so, but they're not new. And so yeah, we have the indigenous, we had slaves that were drinking blood and, and killing children. The Christians were accused by the Romans of these, this conspiracy, the Jewish folks, even before some of these conspiracies really solidified were accused of, of stealing Christian babies. And just this weird, um, this weird idea that we sort of project onto the people who are our cultural others kind of like the worst traits that you can. Um, because then, you know, for example, if you're a white colonist and the person whose land you are taking has been demeaned to the level of drinking baby's blood, you're sort of able to be like to, to do the things that you want- Athena: 00:28:24 It's a way to dehumanize, right? [Chelsey agrees]. Basically, and this whole notion of targeting the most vulnerable individuals, right? [Chelsey agrees again] Like children, babies, um, you know, individuals maybe who also can't tell you what actually happened. Um, and you know, basically turning these other people into monsters by saying that they're targeting those vulnerable individuals and doing things to them that only monsters would do. Chelsey: 00:28:51 Absolutely. This is going okay so far? Athena: 00:28:57 It's going great. Chelsey: 00:28:57 Okay. I don't know if, sometimes I'm not sure what level that I'm supposed to start on in terms of knowledge. So if you need me to go back and do any stuff to make sense of it. Athena: 00:29:08 No, it's great. Chelsey: 00:29:08 Okay, great. Dave: 00:29:08 I'm sorry I hope I didn't throw you off. Chelsey: 00:29:11 No, no, no, no. Um, I'll go back and talk a little bit more about sort of the Nazi stuff. [Giggles, Athena agrees] So, so in addition to sort of the, the biological imperative, we have this, this story of, and I think it goes back to biblical times of, I think it's really important to understand that the root of all this is this Jewish conspiracy and it gets hidden under layers and layers of other things. But if you really get to the core of it, it is the Jewish elite, Jews in Hollywood, Jews in the government, Jews in, you know, banks, and all of those different things that are apparently controlling the world. And part of this comes from, uh, there's like a series of ridiculous documents that accused like the Freemasons, the Catholics, um, and all different types of, of others, uh, throughout, uh, here and in Europe as well. Um, and, uh, let's see, sorry, I lost my train of thought. Um- Athena: 00:30:22 The documents. Chelsey: 00:30:23 Thank you. Yeah. So the documents, uh, have kind of played on each other the way we see today with conspiracy theories, how they will reference other conspiracy theorists, but it looks, like, legit because they're using footnotes, they're using these different things, so It looks like an academic document. That goes all the way back to, uh, I believe it was the 1600, 1700s. Um, and then it was imported over here actually, uh, by Henry Ford, there's a document called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is probably the most important conspiracy theory document that exists. And it is a, uh, forgery. It's just a, it was either a play or it was a piece of propaganda. I don't think that anyone knows for sure, but it basically is a conversation like the notes from a discussion of a bunch of Jewish leaders about how to control the world. Um, like they're having this conversation like, a little like evil villains around a table, right? Um, and that document was imported over to the United States by Henry Ford and his, uh, media printing company printed 500,000 copies and delivered them all over the world, um, sorry all over the nation. And, um, it was a really huge boost to 1920s anti-Semitism. Chelsey: 00:31:49 Um, and with, with Hitler, he, he took this document and he used it in so many of his early speeches to create the idea that they were fighting a threat, that the Nazis were fighting a Jewish threat. And that actually came directly from Henry Ford. And Henry Ford was the only American mentioned in Mien Kampf and Hitler had a full-sized portrait of Henry Ford beside his desk, which are things that people don't really realize. Um, and how the conspiracy theories that went around the United States that led to things like eugenics, um, also were really the inspiration for the rise of a lot of European fascism. And so we can see how dangerous this is, and then we can trace it all the way through the Communists, the gay people, you know, the, whatever the civil rights movement, Black Panthers, like anyone can be- they said that the Black Panthers were under control of the Jewish elite, you know, and these crazy stories about this overarching control. And we see it in to this day. It was, it was funny for a bit. I don't know if you guys remember kind of all of the ridiculous Illuminati stuff where it was Beyoncé and Justin Bieber and they were doing rituals during the, you know, uh, during awards shows and all of this, you know, ridiculous stuff, which got funny. And then once Trump started running and people were reacting to a black president things, really, yeah. Things really got dark pretty fast. So [Dave agrees] it just it's there it's, it's there throughout time and it'll probably be there forever, unfortunately. We just have to learn how to chill it out a little. [Chelsey laughs] Dave: 00:33:34 So, I mean, when I hear that though, right? So that's Henry Ford who, somebody who [pauses] did really well. Right? He seems like he was probably one of these controlling Illuminati-type guys, right? Spreading out this information that no, no, it's these other guys. And I still feel like, like that's a conspiracy that I still kind of believe to be true, you know? And I still even feel like today, I feel like I see a lot of things where I think, "Oh, that's being put out by the government or by somebody who's in a position of power to make me think I should be afraid of somebody who isn't them." Um, does that make sense? Like- Athena: 00:34:18 Well, it's almost like the conspiracy theory, like the generation of the conspiracy theory is a conspiracy [laughter]. Chelsey: 00:34:28 And you're not wrong. Dave: 00:34:31 Yeah. Um. [Laughter] Chelsey: 00:34:33 You're not wrong. Athena: 00:34:33 Right? 'Cause that is like people putting their heads together and referencing other documents to create an alternate reality, and- Chelsey: 00:34:41 And I mean, that's propaganda. Yeah. Dave: 00:34:44 Yeah. And then I'm always like, well, how much of that is intentional? You know what I mean? Like, 'cause I would also always hear these things about like, that, what's the FBI trying to keep gangs, fighting each other. And did they kill Tupac because he was trying to unite gangs? Like, is there a big incentive for people in power to sort of turn the, turn us against each other by, because of our race, because of our religion, things like that? You know what I mean? Chelsey: 00:35:14 Absolutely. There's an enormous incentive. We've talked about- and I think that's the important thing is it doesn't mean debunking conspiracy theories does not mean that there aren't concerted efforts to influence public opinion, right? They're just not coming from this joint, weird group of people under control of Jewish leaders; they are coming from the elite class. That's to be certain, it's just not as simple as we want to make it. There are a million problems rather than one giant evil thing to battle. We have to battle these individual issues that are so overwhelming that we just would love it to be so simple. But on your point, I think we did an episode called Rednecks, which was debunking a lot of, and explaining a lot of the, the idea of the psychic dumping ground of the poor white person for racism. Like here's where racism happens. It's over here, it's these degenerate people that, you know, liberalism likes to blame for the racism that we couldn't possibly contain. Chelsey: 00:36:19 And so, um, but back in the days, when we first kidnapped and brought, um, African folks over into the colonies in the early 1600s, there wasn't a huge, huge social difference between someone who was enslaved and someone who was an indentured servant, who was often Irish or um, from somewhere else where people were immigrating from at that time. And, um, they actually created this category of race because slaves who were in a different class because they had no option to get out of slavery. Whereas indentured servants would pledge their servitude for a number of years, but would give up a lot of rights. So they ended up finding more in common with each other. An enslaved person found a lot more in common with an indent- a white indentured servant than someone in the planter class. And when they started to join together and band together against the elite, there was a concerted effort by politicians and planters to, to, um, differentiate slaves and black folks from working class, whatever plant- uh, people who were indentured servants to destroy that unity, um, by making poor whites feel superior because suddenly they had more in common with this rich class than they did with someone else. And when you have no power, sometimes you'll take any you can get. Dave: 00:37:52 So how much of this do you think is deliberate and how much of it do you think just sort of happens organically? You know? Chelsey: 00:37:59 I, yeah. I think that they're like feedback loops kind of, you know, like in times of stability, I mean, there's a lot of studies that say that people who believe in conspiracy theories also feel extremely disempowered. Um, and you know, they're- no one's immune to conspiracy theories. You know, like the conspiracy theory that AIDS was introduced by the Reagan administration to, you know, kill African people and these different things that aren't true, but are coming from places of feeling disempowered and feeling this terror over, uh, HIV that had no cure, that no one was paying attention to. Um, that was obviously affecting a lot of black folks here and around the world. Um, and so a lot of it does come from this feeling of being disempowered. Um, but at the same time, I think it's harder to say that that's true. I guess it's true of Trump, when working class white voters do feel like they've been forgotten and they're not in the conversation and all of those different things for better, for worse, whether that's true or not. Um, the feeling exists. And as you know, there are more gains by minorities of all different kinds of, you know, all stripes. It starts to feel scary for a white man in America who's never been called a white man. Who's never been in a category of a person, who suddenly knows what it feels like to be, uh, to be categorized by your race versus like, "Oh, I'm just white. That's the norm. You know, everyone else is, is a race, but I'm just white, it's normal." And it never had anything really negative attached to it. I mean it did, but in terms of culturally, socially, uh, and now there is power in the hands of people that aren't, uh, straight white men and that's really, that's nervewracking. Chelsey: 00:39:45 So I think when you have someone like Trump rising up, he's going to be using fake news and calling things fake news, which is a huge tool of propaganda, always is also discrediting real news. And it really just destabilizes a nation enough to not really know what's real anymore. And that is a huge, huge tool of people who are rising in a fascist state to, uh, to create a new reality. And so I think when people are confused and scared, um, they can be made more afraid by politicians and that can be, uh, really exploited. And I think to your question, uh, David it's, it's like, it's [sighs], I just think there's so many, there's just a lot of interplay, but, but calling something fake news, discrediting scholars, discrediting, as I'm sure you guys hear, academics all the time, you know, elite, democratic, uh, intellectuals and all of the different things. You can really destabilize truth as we've seen, we're living in like a post-truth reality. Um, and so that then plays into the hands of people in power because they get to, they get to both offer the safety, right? That's the whole thing, is I'm the law and order guy. I'm going to save everyone from the destruction in the streets by radical Marxists. Um, and those conspiracy theories just spread because people also want to reinforce their worldview. They want to reinforce why President Trump is a great guy when consistently every day something comes out, proving the opposite. But then if all of that is fake, if all of that's a conspiracy against him, then there's no need to question why you'd continue supporting this man that you've kind of put your whole life into. So hopefully that wasn't too rambling and made some resemblance of sense. Dave: 00:41:47 Well, I- do you want to jump in? Athena: 00:41:50 I wanna just come back to this idea, kind of pulling some of the threads together of, you know, you pointed out how, like the difference between a conspiracy theory and like the influence that is happening in, you know, reality from elites and other powerful individuals, is this notion of like with the conspiracy theory, it's all coming from one place, right? Like there's this single cause versus this like really messy, complex, multiple causation. That is the way that things are in reality. Um, and you know, it's, it's really interesting to me that, you know, we know that when people are stressed, when they're afraid, um, it's harder for them to have as complex thoughts. It's harder to consider things that are as complex, right? Fear really kind of constrains how you process the information that's coming in. So, you know, it, it's almost as if our, you know, like when we are afraid, when we're stressed, we're like primed for these simplified explanations of, you know, the forces that are zombifying us. That it's just, it's one thing, right? [Chelsey agrees] As opposed to the complex multitude of forces that are constantly zombifying us that have all these different origins and reasons and, um, you know, individuals behind them. Chelsey: 00:43:22 We just want to simplify everything. You know, I think conspiracy theories, if you get down to the very heart of them, for me, are about ordering the chaos. Right. And, and thinking that well, if someone's in control of this chaos, even if there's some, you know, evil elite, satanic cult, that is somehow less scary than kind of living in this unknowable universe where we can't- where truth is really hard to understand. And we don't, you know, everything's sort of, uh, chaotic, you know, you don't know, you know, if you don't have a strong belief in God and all that kind of stuff, and even if you do it can be really, you know, that that fear is always kind of there that we don't know what's going to happen next. We don't know when a tragedy in our own life is going to strike. We don't know when, you know, we could have another 9/11, for example, we don't know when, you know, the government could rise up in, uh, tyrannical reign, you know, all these different things that, that are scary to us. Um, and then if there is just this one group that is pulling all the strings and creating all of these problems, that's yeah, that's just, it's easier to, to address in a way it's easier than, than, oh, the government is also made up of a bunch of fallible, kind of like dumb people sometimes that make mistakes or have their own agendas, or, um, are just being lobbied by the NRA or by who knows who, um, and it's a lot more boring than- I think that's it too, is like, if you have a conspiracy theory, then by virtue, you are a hero. You are one of the people who gets it, you're on the inside. You're not a sheep. You know, you're not a zombie. With conspiracy theories that people think they are not zombies. Right? They're not zombified. They see the truth and everybody else is under the hypnosis of, you know, the elite cult. And I think that's really interesting, too. Athena: 00:45:24 Yeah. That is amazing. Right? Because both sides see the other side as the zombie. Chelesy: 00:45:32 Yeah. I hadn't thought about it that way. That's cool though. Yeah. Dave: 00:45:36 But yeah, I think that's a lot of it, right. Is that it's like the other side is just this sort of unthinking hoard that just wants our destruction, you know? And I fall prey to that when I think about, you know yeah. So it's like, and I was like, I always wonder if that might be natural. You know, we were talking about that. That might just be a thing that we think of the outgroup as, oh, they're zombies. And, uh, it's hard. It's hard to think, wait, these are other people who are, because also then, I don't know, there's so many people and just like- Chelsey: 00:46:15 [Laughter] Yeah, I know. Well and the idea that it could all be hidden, right? This like huge agenda of mind control and, and, uh, whatever is all hidden because they're just that smart, they're just that evil that they can kind of like slip all this stuff under the radar and control our minds with us. The only people who can expose it are these people who are the conspiracy theorists. And of course, they're just pretty much making things up or taking a tiny grain of truth and expanding it into like, you know, the tiny grain of truth being that who controls our lives but politicians, we are, our lives are controlled by the government. That's like, yeah. Dave: 00:46:54 And the idea that the evil forces are actually no smarter than me, that they're just a bunch of people who are having as much trouble getting through life as I am. That's pretty terrifying, as well. Chelsey: 00:47:07 [Laughter] Yeah, see, I know. And I mean, if somebody tells you you're a good guy and you're fighting evil, like we all want to believe that, you know, and it sucks because the more that I do this, the more empathy that I have, uh, for people- Dave: 00:47:25 Empathy's the worst. Chelsey: 00:47:25 Empathy sucks! [Everyone laughs] Empathy's real hard. But you know, maybe not even empathy, but just like this blanket understanding of why this happens to people and how a lot of times it is just zombification of growing up in a conservative area. Um, having racial anxieties without- 'cause many people, I mean, all of us have racial anxieties, but they're not, they don't manifest as "I'm wearing a Klan hood." You know, it manifests as seeing a black person as more likely to be a criminal or, you know, so these, these, these anxieties exist in, in all communities, but especially communities where there is this feeling of a current type of disempowerment, not a long-term, but now, now everything's gone too far. Right. The Civil Rights Movement was great, but now everything's going too far. So I might've, I might've drifted away from [giggles] whatever the question was. Dave: 00:48:21 No, I think 'cause we were talking about empathy and there is also, as you were talking about sort of the redneck thing, I think it's nice to be a part of a group and it's nice to think, "Oh, there's these other people out there who are the problems and they're, they've all been zombified, but I'm not, you know, that then I'm in a part of a better group," you know, that's, it's nice to be able to think that Chelsey: 00:48:41 All of us think that here, I'm sure, you know, like we all think that we are, we are, you know, heroes of the story and you know, that's not a bad thing always. And of course I'm always going to think you that, you know, I'm on the right side of history and I do believe that. Um, but that is a firmly held belief of the other side as well. Um, I think we tend to do the same thing where we demonize, uh, Trump voters and everything, which again, I'm not saying is good or bad. It's just, the fact is that, that we also project a lot onto our other, um, and the more that I investigate the other, it, uh, my others, um, which are, you know, white supremacists. How about Proud Boys? You know, I've done, I know so much about Proud Boys. Um, men's rights activists. We've done a lot of work on that type of thing. I start to see how these, these people arrive at this conclusion and how that can be comforting. Um, and how also they're manipulated by Fox News propaganda, or they're manipulated by Alex Jones, who they identify with for a second. And then it just, you know, is a decline or, you know, men who join these like red pill men's rights incel groups usually start out being really lonely and feeling, you know, this whole thing starts with a true human thing. And then what comes around that is different for all of us, but that kind of core thing, unless, you know, you're born like a serial killer psychopath, we all have this sort of core fear. And then everything just builds around that. And I think that's really sad. Um, and I think that's why our show, we really do try to take an empathetic stance while not putting up with any bullshit. Um, you know, so I think at the end of the day, it just being someone who could be duped into a narrative that, that is attractive to me in some way, I just have empathy for the fact that most of the people who are hardcore Trump supporters, I consider it to be part of a cult, um, 'cause at this point there's no, there's no real way to break out of this thinking with a charismatic leader, um, kind of taking everything over. Athena: 00:51:11 So if we kinda like expand our frame a little bit to thinking about conspiracy theories, you know, more broadly and like throughout history, how, how do you see these forces from, you know, these attractive narratives like with, you know, single cause, um, of, you know, why things are the way they are and this sort of zombification by these forces, is that a problem for sort of thinking of ourselves as autonomous individuals that are in control of our lives? How does this tie in with the sort of issues about autonomy and freewill? Chelsey: 00:51:52 Hm. Yeah, I think, I think it's always nice to be able to blame things outside of ourselves, um, for our problems. And I think that's a big part of conspiracy theories is if I'm this disempowered, then nothing that I do wrong is really my fault. Um, but I think at the same time, people that believe the opposite of that are also wrong because our cultural conditioning, our social hierarchies, all of those things are zombifying us from birth. So I think it kind of hits on, on the two things where it's nice to believe that something's in control. And it's kind of nice to believe that it's not us because freewill is also really, really scary. Um, but then at the same time, it's like also an acknowledgement or I think it's good to acknowledge that the zombification does happen from without like that's not untrue that we are being zombified. Um, it's just sort of the question is, is by who, um, and I dunno, I think it, that's why charismatic leaders are so huge. You know, those people, they don't have to have charisma, but to be a charismatic leader, but the people who express a complete confidence where they say, "I know what's real, I know who the enemy is, I'm the only one who can save you." And if you're someone who, you know, that's why a lot of intelligent people join cults because I don't know about you, but sometimes I do not want to think anymore. And I would love someone to just be like, "Here's the truth, don't worry about it. I got this." Um, and I think conspiracy theories act as that and then are of course employed by, 'cause I mean, think about a cult, right? Every cult is full of conspiracy theories, Jonestown. Everybody was after them. The Manson family, everyone was after them. You know, it's this paranoia, um, that, uh, can end up with you wanting to kind of give up that freewill. Athena: 00:53:58 Well, and you bring up a great point that, you know, people who are often recruited into cults or, you know, find cults attractive, you know, it's not that they're somehow broken or messed up people, right? Like lots of people get sucked in, you know, because they are, you know, looking for deeper meaning because they're, you know, really productive. They're, you know, they know how to get things done, so cults even seek them out. Right? So like if, if there is some sort of a parallel here with, you know, more broadly like believing in conspiracy theories and being vulnerable to, um, cults, it, you know, it's not like a individual failure to have that vulnerability. It's something that lots and lots of people have. I mean, all of us have it to some extent, right? I mean, if you control somebody's reality enough, um, it's really easy to sort of pull them into, uh, an alternate world, which then they can act on. Chelsey: 00:55:01 Yeah, absolutely. I've accidentally almost been in a cult before. So I made it, wasn't a cult. It's like one of those, it's a little on the Nexium tip, like on the, it came out of, it's like a branch of Scientology that, um, my family was into. So I went to some classes on that and you know, I, I know what it's like, uh, to have someone present to you, um, something that feels true, something that suddenly makes you vulnerable. Um, and, and how much you want to latch on to. Basically, I think it's a lot about certainty and latching onto someone who has this apparent strength that you don't feel like you have, or you want to mirror, or you want to be a part of. And I, and I also think it is that story of having someone tell you you're the good one, because so many of us at our core question whether we're good or bad, you know, as if those are real categories, but you know, so many of us just want to feel like we just know we're on the good side, because anyone who, who is worth their salt, I would- you know, I think personally questions themselves as much as possible and their motives and their opinions and their, their opinions of the groups that they're a part of. Um, and, but it's also great to not do that. It feels really good not to do that. It feels really good to be righteous, you know, but often being righteous leads to pretty horrific things. [Giggles] Dave: 00:56:31 It leads to horrific things for society, but I could see how it's really beneficial on an individual level. Right? Like if you can always think you're the good guy and you can always think the other people are the bad guy, then when you present yourself to other people, you'll always be like, "No, no, no, look that, that guy, yeah, sure. I stole from him 'cause he's evil. But you? No." [Chelsey agrees] You know, it's a really beneficial sort of way to go through life, uh, for an individual person. Chelsey: 00:57:00 And for someone to find a community for better, for worse. [Dave agrees] Right? Dave: 00:57:03 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Chelsey: 00:57:03 You know, 'cause we all want a community. Athena: 00:57:05 At least in the short-term. [Chelsey agrees] In the long-term might not be so great. [Chelsey agrees again] Dave: 00:57:10 Actually. Where are we at now? Or Athena? Did you have a- Athena: 00:57:14 Yeah. So I want to kind of start bringing us to a close a bit here [Chelsey agrees] , but we always ask this question. Um, you know, essentially what is the zombie apocalypse scenario for this form of zombification? So what is the zombie apocalypse of everybody being zombified by conspiracy theories or us being, you know, even just a little bit more vulnerable to being zombified by conspiracy theories than we are now. What's that world look like? Chelsey: 00:57:47 Well, um, I think, you know, it's been, we've been talking about it a lot, especially after the debate. And um, I think that the danger will be, um, the discrediting of, of the electoral process, which has already been happening for actually several years. Um, the calls to arms that we've been, you know, vaguely hearing, um, with what Trump said at the debate to Proud Boys. Um, and these, this basically the Civil War, um, which is also part of the overarching conspiracy, um, which we didn't really get to, but the idea that, um, the government is going to take over, take people's guns, disempower. Um, and so that combined with a like militia mindset, um, because, you know, I mean the reason that the Oklahoma Bombing happened was because of Timothy McVeigh's belief in conspiracy theories. So these, this is very, it's very possible that there could be more violence as the, as questions come up of, of who was actually elected? Was that election legit? Which I expect there is no chance that Trump will accept the election results. I've been really worried for quite a while about the violence that could occur from people who suddenly believe that they need to take up arms and be heroes, um, because that's a true belief, the true belief that the Marxist black, transgender radical left as, [Giggles] um, you know, taken over the streets and have begun to arm themselves sort of in like a throwback to the fear of the Black Panthers, um, who were basically just doing the exact same thing that white men had been able to do, which was bare arms. Um, and you know, we see a lot of, of the terror of this armed vigilante on the right, I mean, sorry on the left, which then causes people on the right to kind of take up arms, like what we saw at Charlottesville. Um, and what we've seen, you know, on the streets happening with Kenosha and the shooting and all those different types of things and, and the violence that's happened on both sides, um, I don't think is going to slow down. Um, and- Athena: 01:00:06 So are you talking about like, what you think is just happening and this is the track we're on or is this like, uh, imaginary zombie apocalypse scenario because it's sounding like you're just sort of talking about what you think is going to happen. Chelsey: 01:00:22 Well, I mean, that feels like that's what the zombie apocalypse is going to be to me [Athena laughs] is, is a group of sort of zombified folks who feel that they're in the right. Zombified by, you know, the Trump administration, uh, and fake news propaganda, um, misinformation, disinformation, um, that have, have imagined that we are the zombies that the left is the zombies. Anyone out in the street is a zombie. Uh, we want to come into the suburbs. We want to get their old ladies, you know, and pull them into the street. And I don't know, we want to, you know, take their babies away. And in all of these different things that, that create an individual, that's so scary that people would be willing to take the law into their own hands, which we've seen that rhetoric quite a bit from the President now. Um, as well as other prominent figures on the Right. So for me, I didn't, I thought you were asking me my actual real-world scenario of what does the zombie apocalypse looks like. [Laughter] Were you asking something else? Dave: 01:01:33 No, I don't know about you- Chelsey: 01:01:34 I mean, it sounds, it sounds like that's like, you're basically just saying, you know, the zombie apocalypse is upon us basically- Chelsey: 01:01:47 Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully not an apocalypse, but definitely a period of serious chaos where people are going to keep, probably hold even tighter, to these stories because it's going to be scary. Things are so scary. Things are so scary. I mean, the left- feminists on the left have been sharing a ton of misinformation about child sex trafficking, which is a huge part of conspiracy theories. And, you know, it, it's, it's, everybody's getting sucked in through fear and through othering and all of these different things. And I think we all really, really, really, really have to be on guard, all of us on every side, because there's always misinformation and disinformation coming to all of us. And, and it's scary because right now it's just, it feels like these lines are so drawn. And I think that they are. Um, but hopefully- I don't know. I have, I don't have a lot of good things to say, but I I'm hoping that it will be a period of time and we will figure it out, uh, or else we live in a new dictatorship. Dave: 01:02:48 [Laughter] So one of our final questions is, is the question of what can we do to sort of prevent or survive this apocalypse scenario? Chelsey: 01:03:00 Well... [Giggles] Part of, part of combating, at least with conspiracy theories, you know, it's really hard to do because studies actually show that when people are presented with an opposite viewpoint to their own, they often just double down. Um, it actually makes- it strengthens people's belief to see the opposite evidence to their, their stance. Um, and I know I'm guilty of that, too. Um, so I don't, so this whole thing we just need to, we just need to educate people and we need to do all these different things. Uh, I don't really know how well that will work. Um, but I do think that we are not going to get anywhere by rage. Um, I think rage is very important in political movements, but to change a person's mind out of conspiracy theories, if you call them stupid, you scream at them, isn't going to work. You know, it's just not gonna work. Um, doesn't mean that rage and, um, you know, righteous anger doesn't have a huge, if not, probably the most important place in social movements, but when you're combating misinformation, you just kind of have to be gentle. You have to sort of try to find common ground. And that's what we do on the show, is we try to make a show that somebody could come into, probably not the most radical conspiracy theorist, but someone could come in and feel, "Okay. I'm not being made fun of." I mean, we do a lot of that, but you know, I'm not being made fun about, someone's trying to understand me. Um, trying to find common ground, you know, um, trying to unite people. Chelsey: 01:04:40 Um, I think reminding people that the enemy is billionaires or, you know, 'enemy's' silly, but that, that, that the powerful folks who do have a lot of influence are really the people that we need to be holding accountable versus, Oh, my neighbor down the street, who said something shitty? Um, I don't know. I think that it's so much easier to try to attack and make examples of individuals who are really just expressing things that we know exist. Like a person who says something sexist has been zombified by a sexist culture and is expressing something that we need to fight, but it feels like conspiracy theory is easier to kind of say, "You're the, you're a horrible person. You're this, you're that." Versus saying, "You're expressing something that I want to battle." You know, you, in a way, you have been disempowered by hypnosis, by a cultural sort of conditioning. And so we have to remember that its institutions, its laws, its long-term historical biases. And it's also people who from the beginning have held an extremely disproportionate amount of wealth for absolutely no good reason. Um, and that there has always been a vested interest in turning our, you know, turning us against each other. And I think people like Fred Hampton, um, who's one of my big heroes from the Black Panthers who was murdered by the FBI in a conspiracy. Um, he brought together, uh, the folks who were called hillbillies, um, back then, people who left Appalachia, poor white people. He brought them together with the Black Panthers, with a Latinx, uh, gang. And they all came together. They all created social programs. They didn't agree on everything. They had conversations. These hillbillies agreed to stop flying the Confederate flag when Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers explained why it was racist. You know, they formed this thing called the Rainbow Coalition. And I always think that's a really wonderful thing to remember, is that it is possible to cross lines. It is possible to break down the us and them or at least reestablish, because I think we'll kind of always have, have a desire to protect our own, whatever that means, but that, that doesn't have to be the social categories that we've created. It can be, it can, we can change that. We can go back to the solidarity that we once had, um, that we kind of destroy through conspiracy theories that, that make each other into these bloodthirsty monsters. Athena: 01:07:26 Right. So it's like, even if you think that somebody has been zombified, that doesn't make them inhuman, right?[Chelsey agress] Just because they've been zombified doesn't mean they're a zombie other, right? [Chelsey agrees] There's still that humanity and kind of recognizing that shared humanity and that all of us are fundamentally vulnerable [Chelsey agrees] to zombification. That's kind of part of what it means. Chelsey: 01:07:48 Yeah. And it's not a kumbaya thing, you know, this isn't some, Oh, you know, we can all come together. You know, it's not, it takes really hard work and it's really ugly stuff sometimes to figure out how to work together. But I don't know. I just think if we're going to do it, we have to start doing it. And we have to start from a place of trying to at least, you know, we all know that these systems are ingrained in, or at least many of us believe that all of these different social categories have influenced all of our thinking. And, and so I think if we take a little bit of the pressure off, here's a bad individual and think about how a bad individual's expressing a bad system. Dave: 01:08:29 So can I ask just one last question? So this idea that we should all sort of work together, is this a thing you really believe or are you secretly being paid or blackmailed to tell us to work together? [Everyone laughs] Chelsey: 01:08:44 [Mock-anxious laughter] Uh, no, I am, uh, uh, it's my cautious optimism, I guess. Um, I do believe in love [Giggles], you know, I believe in the love kind of stuff, but no I'm not being paid, uh, except the measly advertising money that I get from American Hysteria... Hardly worth it. [Laughter] Athena: 01:09:07 Well, Chelsea has been amazing having you on the show. I learned so much about conspiracy theories and how they zombify us as individuals and as a society. And uh, just really appreciate you sharing your brains with us. Chelsey: 01:09:24 Ah, thank you. I so appreciate you letting me, uh, go on and on, on, I like to pretend I come back to a point, so hopefully, [Giggles] hopefully I do. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm just as zombified as everybody else. So, uh, we just got to try and undo it together, but thank you both so much. Thank you guys Athena and David. This has been so fun. I love it. Dave: 01:09:45 Thank you so much, Chelsey. Outro: 01:10:55 [Psychological by Lemi] Athena: 01:11:03 Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. Dave: 01:11:09 And we would like to thank everyone who conspired to make Zombified possible, including the Psychology Department here at ASU. Athena: 01:11:19 Yeah, psych. [Laughter] Part of the whole thing. The Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and the President's Office at ASU. Dave: 01:11:30 That's right. The Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics. Athena: 01:11:33 Of conspiracies. [Giggles] Dave: 01:11:35 Ethical conspiracies. Um, everyone on Z-Team, that's- Athena: 01:11:41 Yes. Uh, all of the undergrads and others on our Z-Team who share their brains to make this podcast happen. Dave: 01:11:52 We all do work together towards a common goal. [Athena laughs] Entertaining people. Athena: 01:11:58 Wait a second. Are you saying that they're behind a zombified conspiracy? Dave: 01:12:03 I think they might be involved. [Laughter] Athena: 01:12:06 I do know that Tal Rom is involved. Dave: 01:12:09 Yes. Tal Rom is involved. He puts, he puts the, uh, subaudible mind control tones under everything, right? Athena: 01:12:17 Yeah, that's right. And then Neil Smith who makes our illustrations and he definitely implants, um, subliminal messages inside those to control our brains, too. Dave: 01:12:26 And Lemi who makes the song that will, if you play it backwards, it might not sound as good. [Laughter] Athena: 01:12:36 And you can follow us and support us, uh, by going on your social media, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, you can find us on Tik ToK. Where else can you find us? Dave: 01:12:51 Well, you can find our merchandise on channelzed.org. Athena: 01:12:57 Yeah. And, uh, we have some amazing, t-shirts, not just of from the zombified podcast, but also from the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting with all of our different shows. So if you're a fan of, um, Unreal World, for example, you could get yourself a bright pink t-shirt with a picture of a dancer in a yellow hazmat suit in front of a Winnebago. Dave: 01:13:23 That's right. And if you wear that t-shirt, it lets people know you're part of the secret club. Athena: 01:13:29 That's right. Yes. You're part of the zombie in-group. So. Dave: 01:13:35 And also, uh, where can people hear more of Chelsey's podcast? Athena: 01:13:41 Yeah. So Chelsey's podcast, American Hysteria, is awesome and you can find it on all major podcast platforms. So definitely check that out if you haven't, I've started listening to it. And it is now one of my favorite podcasts and you can just start from the beginning with like the, you know, Stranger Danger and Satanic Panic episodes. Um, they are awesome. And I, I, I love listening to that. Dave: 01:14:07 Yeah, it is really, it's really entertaining. So, um, cool. And then also if people hear this before ZAMM, they should tune in, um, I know that's coming up really soon, so, but either way, if they check Channel Zed, they can see the shows that we've been putting up on. Athena: 01:14:25 Yes. Definitely check out Channel Zed, if you want some, uh, not just audio entertainment, but also video entertainment. We have some amazing shows with other guests and, uh, other hosts besides us on various topics, including how to eat your way through the apocalypse, um, how to survive a zombie attack, um, many, many different, um, sort of aspects of not just surviving, but also thriving in the zombie apocalypse. Dave: 01:14:56 And, and they actually are all free of subliminal messages as far as I know. Athena: 01:15:03 [Athena laughs] Thankfully, that subliminal messaging to get you to say that worked. So, yeah. Dave: 01:15:07 Oh man. Chelsey: 01:15:10 Thank you for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains. DaveOutro: 01:15:17 [Psychological by Lemi]