Athena: 00:00:03 Have you been zombified by monsters? Welcome to the Zombified Podcast, your source for fresh brains. Zombified is a production of ASU and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. I'm your host, Athena Aktipis, psychology professor at ASU and chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. Dave: 00:00:24 And I am your co-host, Dave Lundberg-Kenrick and the media outreach program manager at ASU. And I am doomed if there's an apocalypse. Athena: 00:00:33 Are you? Dave: 00:00:35 That's what, uh, I took away from [Athena suggests, "from this episode"] from this episode, yeah. [Laughter] Athena: 00:00:40 Yeah. So what are your vulnerabilities in the apocalypse? Dave: 00:00:44 Um, I mean, what are my strengths? Let's see. Uh, well, I, I don't have a bag in my car. Athena: 00:00:54 I don't either. Dave: 00:00:55 Yeah. Um, and I don't really know how to defend myself and uh, I don't keep an ax in my car which was one of the things we we're supposed to do, right? Athena: 00:01:09 Yeah, so our guest, Emily Zarka, she knows a lot about monsters, both from an academic perspective and from like the kind of reality of, well, what would happen in a, in a situation where something sort of apocalyptic- Dave: 00:01:25 She's prepared. Like, she seems really prepared. Athena: 00:01:27 Yeah. I really want her on my z-team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] Dave: 00:01:34 You should ask if she'll just sort of ride with you everywhere you go carrying an ax, just in case. Athena: 00:01:39 That's right. That's right. Dave: 00:01:39 And just in case something goes awry, but you know, if people listen today, then they can be more prepared than us. Athena: 00:01:46 That's right. Yeah. Or maybe we can actually get our acts together and put together such a bag. I mean, we should. We're hosting this podcast about zombies and we talk about the apocalypse. So I feel like we should be better prepared. Dave: 00:02:00 And actually I have, I started putting together a big bin that it's like also partly like camping gear and stuff, but, uh, so, but it's sitting in my house right now, so I'd need to, it's giant though. That's the thing is it's like it would take up the entire back row. Athena: 00:02:14 Yeah. You're not carrying that on your back. Dave: 00:02:16 Oh no, even, even in my car it's like, you know? So, uh... But, we'll see. Hopefully- [laughter] Athena: 00:02:26 Hopefully the apocalypse doesn't come before you get your bag sorted. Dave: 00:02:29 Yeah. Before, I get it, before I get it to the size where it can sit, can fit in the car cause right now it takes up like the whole trunk. Athena: 00:02:33 That's right. Right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we talked to Emily about what you should have in your apocalypse-ready bag. We talked to her about monsters and how monsters seem to really reflect what's going on in society and we just have a fun time with her cause she's a super engaging guest and she knows a lot about monsters. Dave: 00:02:57 Yeah. Yeah. It's really a very cheery discussion of how we're all doomed, so. Athena: 00:03:00 Yeah. Although, but there is this other side which is, you know, by engaging with horror, we can potentially put ourselves in a mind frame where we will be more ready for the apocalypse. Dave: 00:03:12 That's true. And that's the whole, one of the whole points. Athena: 00:03:15 So that's why it's a, it's really an episode of optimism. Dave: 00:03:19 That's true. [laughter] Athena: 00:03:20 All right, let's hear it. Dave: 00:03:21 Alright. Here we go. Intro: 00:03:23 [Psychological by Temi] Athena: 00:03:59 Welcome, Emily. It is awesome to have you here. And, uh, you guys met just briefly, just now. Just now. [Dave and Emily confirm with "yes"] Excellent. Excellent. So, um, Emily, would you introduce yourself for us in your own words and that way also Dave can get to know you a little better. Emily: 00:04:14 Yes. So I'm doctor Emily Zarka. I have PhD in literature with a specialty in the Gothic, wrote my dissertation about the undead. And now I'm officially a monster expert here at Arizona State University and also with PBS Digital Studios. Athena: 00:04:29 Awesome. So if you were going to say you're a doctor of something, what would you? Emily: 00:04:33 Doctor of monsters. Athena: 00:04:35 Doctor of monsters. I love that. Dave: 00:04:37 Cool. Athena: 00:04:37 I love that. Okay. So how did you get into studying or becoming a doctor of monsters? Emily: 00:04:44 Well, it actually started a long time ago when I was a kid. Some of my earliest memories are watching the terrible Bee SCIFI movies and horror movies with my mom and that evolved into a true love for horror. Everything from you know, Goosebumps, Scary Stories We Tell in the Dark to reading Stephen King way before I probably should have been. And then I had this epiphany moment in undergrad where I realized I could do two things I love; talk about monsters and read books. And that turned into coming to the PhD program in literature, British Romantic Period, which I do believe is where we get a lot of the un-dead tropes that we see today. So that turned into me deciding why not just go full out with this, call myself a monster expert and start trying to actually get the credentials for that and luckily, I did! Athena: 00:05:26 Sweet. Okay. So I already have a question for you, which is what do you mean by like, loving horror? Because, like I know like I can find it like fascinating and like compelling and kind of fun, especially if there's some humor in it. But like for me, I think for a lot of people like horrors just like scary. Emily: 00:05:48 Like scary or gross, yeah. I could go on, yeah. Athena: 00:05:51 So, so for you like what is like loving horror? What does that mean? What are the, what are the, feelings that you have when you're watching scary, gross, zombie. [laughter] Emily: 00:06:03 It depends on how scary it is. Yeah. No, I think actually I can look back to British Romanticism to kind of help me out with this. One is the concept of the sublime, right? The Berkean Sublime. So for me, horror, I love it and its so impactful because it's a way for us to think about scary situations and really complex topics without actually having to be in danger ourselves. So I think it's cathartic, not only the actual anatomical response we have, right, with adrenaline, heart rate, all those things that can occur when you're watching or reading something scary. But for me it's being able to even plan out what you would do. Right. In some ways I think horror sort of indoctrinates us into thinking about horrible situations and how he would react. But, for me horror has always been sort of, you know, the outside genre and I've always identified with being sort of the weirdo and the nerd. So I think horror has an attraction for me there. But, I think it's really experimental. I think that horror genre where authors and creators and artists of all kinds get to play with ideas that maybe you know, aren't considered okay for traditional genres, like maybe even romance. And luckily horror movies at least have been getting a lot more um, respect, I think, and recognition the last few years. And I hope to see more of that. But I also hope horror stays weird. I think that's one of things I love about it. [Athena laughs and agrees] It's, you know, creepy and strange and monster creation is something I really like. I think creativity comes into play and what my research does is looks at how certain monsters, why certain monsters evolve at different times in different places in the world. Dave: 00:07:28 That's interesting. Athena: 00:07:28 Awesome. Yeah. Okay. So, you said something really, really cool a couple of minutes ago about how experiencing horror, like, you know, watching a movie or reading a book that's about like crazy, like insane, like apocalyptic, catastrophic situations that that is almost like potentially a way to put yourself in that situation and almost like prepare for things that you can't possibly prepare for. So is that like? Emily: 00:08:01 I think so. I think psychologically and practically. So psychologically, yeah, I mean it's one thing to read about, you know, people getting shot in the head and all these, like horrible things happening in horror movies like zombie films and um even zombie books in particular. But I mean it's practical too. Like I read Cormac Mccarthy's The Road and started carrying around workman's gloves in the back of like my go pack, right? My Zombie Apocalypse Kit. Athena: 00:08:24 What else is in your? Emily: 00:08:25 Oh my gosh. So many things! [laughter] I feel like you have to have, I always say knives, like certain kinds of knives you can also use as like ax kind of situations. Um, I have two first aid kits. I have waterproof matches, um, emergency blankets, the silver reflective ones. And then some, um, hand crank radio. Um, what else do I have, no money. Cause I don't think, money's going to be useless. We don't need that. But I also have um, duct tape, duct tape, workman's gloves and actually little bottles of alcohol. Um, for two purposes. One, I mean, three, right? [laughter] If things really go to pot, I'm going to be drinking them. Second one is bartering, right? It's going to be, money's going to be useless. People always want booze and the third to sanitize, um, wounds, right? Sterilization. Athena: 00:09:10 You can also use it for drinking water. Right? Like if you have like a cup of water and your like, yeah, I dunno. Put quite a few drops of alcohol in their, right? Emily: 00:09:19 I did get a LifeStraw. So I have a LifeStraw in there. Athena: 00:09:21 Oh, okay, so you're covered. So, you can use your alcohol for more important things. Emily: 00:09:23 Exactly. Yes. Dave: 00:09:25 You keep this in your car? Emily: 00:09:26 I literally keep it in my car. Um, it's in my car at all times. And I think again, it seems kind of like a crazy thing like oh, zombie apocalypse. But again, it's just the way that horror allows us to prepare for situations that are terrible, like a bio weapons attack or if there was some other kind of disaster, natural or man-made. I at least know that I can get myself to my family or to where I need to be, that I can survive for a certain period of time. And I also have, now that I think about it, socks and old tennis shoes because as someone who wears, you know, heals or heeled boots, I've gotta be able to run. [Athena agrees] I've heard that from people who live in places like in San Francisco, right. For an earthquake, same thing. You want to have sneakers. Um, even here in Arizona, if my car were to break down the side of the road, I also have three gallons of drinking water. Like, I could survive overnight in the desert if I had to. Athena: 00:10:15 Right. So have you ever had to use those workman's gloves that you put in your pack? Emily: 00:10:18 I have not. Um, luckily. I have used the Duct Tape for various things. It is kind of nice. It's like, "oh no, I have like a ban, I need a band-aid to where I have in my first aid kit as long as you're restocking. Athena: 00:10:29 Yeah. Wardrobe repair. I mean really duct tape works for everything. Emily: 00:10:32 Pair of old glasses cause I do wear contacts and glasses. So you gotta have something. Athena: 00:10:35 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a, a go kit? bug out bag? Dave: 00:10:42 Uh, I have a first aid kit that I keep in the car and then, I do tend to try to keep sneakers, but that's more day to day. But I think, uh, I think I'm doomed. Emily: 00:10:53 You've got to have some kind of weapon. Even if it's a swiss army knife, you have to have something. Dave: 00:10:57 I used to have a little hatchet for when I go camping. Emily: 00:11:00 Your head's in the right place. Dave: 00:11:01 For now, I don't know. The car itself will have to be my weapon. Athena: 00:11:05 Yeah, I don't have one but I feel like I really should and I've been thinking about it for a long time but maybe I'm sort of paralyzed by like having to have it perfect. But of course you can't have a perfect oh go bag, right? [Emily agrees] Emily: 00:11:19 And practically, yeah. My whole car ideally would be my go bag, put everything in there. Athena: 00:11:22 But then you would be a hoarder. [laughter] Emily: 00:11:22 But, your car is going to break down. You're also going to be, also you don't want to have too much because then you're going to be a target for other survivors. Don't want them to steal from you or kill you and steal from you. Athena: 00:11:32 Yeah. Well and then we're in a whole other realm of the zombie apocalypse, which is like the social side of it. Like, how would you actually establish like co-op, shared cooperative intentions and like not get exploited and all of that? Emily: 00:11:44 And horror and monsters, I think, bring out those negative human emotions. Again, in a way that we can think about them and maybe figure out how to deal with them without literally having like a knife to our throat. We get to experience it in the fictional realm and then maybe it can help us in the future. Athena: 00:11:58 And I mean you do see like in times of disaster people are actually really cooperative. So I don't think that necessarily we're socially doomed in the zombie apocalypse. Emily: 00:12:08 Have you seen the movie Contagion? Athena: 00:12:11 I haven't. I should. [Emily says, "you should"] I so, this is the thing. Like, I am so bad at like being on top of like all of these movies that I should be watching. Emily: 00:12:22 It's not zombie based, don't worry. Athena: 00:12:24 I know, but it's still, it's about, you know, disease and contagion, right? Yeah. So I do need to start working my way through like a watch list. Emily: 00:12:34 I can give you some recommendations. I'll give you like top 10 you need to watch. Athena: 00:12:38 In fact, we'll, we'll put them in the show notes. Emily: 00:12:39 Oh, that'd be great! [Everyone agrees] Dave: 00:12:41 Actually, off the top of your head, which ones do you think are best in terms of preparing people for? Emily: 00:12:46 Preparing people? I think in terms of the negative reality of what could happen, Contagion actually is a really good example. Um, because it shows even when you do have the government trying to give supplies, what it actually looks like when you have a couple hundred people trying to get water off the truck, which we see, of course, in some natural disaster situations. And there's one horrifying scene in there, which doesn't really spoil too much, that things are not going great and you see someone going into the homes and killing people in their homes so they can take their supplies after and then just leaving, not even wanting the home themselves. So I think even coming to the reality that your resources are going to be valuable, not just to you, but to other people to think about that. Um, preparation, which is one of my favorite Zombie movies in general, um, 28 Days Later I think is also really good to show how you can like make a barricade in an apartment building. So maybe the zombies, you at least hear them coming. I think those are good too. Athena: 00:13:38 Yeah. One thing that I've come to, cause I've been thinking a lot about this issue of like in the zombie apocalypse or any kind of apocalypse like, does, do your resources become a vulnerability as opposed to like, something you can barter with? But it's like, well if people can just take your stuff then it actually makes you more vulnerable. And so what I have decided is that the only thing that will really keep you safe is your brains. Like, having skills and abilities that are not possible to take from you. [Emily agrees] So, your brains will save you in the zombie apocalypse. Emily: 00:14:09 Yes. And also maybe doom you if they're trying to eat your brains. Athena: 00:14:13 That's right. It's a paradox! Emily: 00:14:13 It's a double-edged sword! [Emily and Athena excitedly agree] No, but I like that though and I think again, that's a really cool thing. I've been trying to take, I haven't done it yet, but I've taken an urban survival class. I want to take an emergency first aid course. Again because these are just life skills that I think can help you even, hopefully nothing bad will happen. But if it does, you already have the training, your already good to go. And also being able to do something like make bread from scratch or to make beer or to make some kind of food or other resource, um, electricians I've also heard are going to be a good thing to have. Just base knowledge I guess, of life skills. Dave: 00:14:47 That skill set. That's interesting. That sort of goes back to the brain thing, that there's very practical sort of things that we can be learning. So Athena: 00:14:53 Yeah, I think like there's actually in general, a huge amount of disempowerment that we all have about like what we can do or are like allowed to do. Like, can you, you know, replace your own shower heads or do you have to call someone to do that, you know? Emily: 00:15:08 I absolutely cannot, yeah. So I need to be better. Athena: 00:15:10 I, a couple of weeks ago decided, you know what, I'm going to try to make yogurt. So I tried to make it and it was so fucking easy that I'm embarrassed for myself and all of humanity that we go to the store and buy yogurt. Because it's, Emily: 00:15:24 Don't you just like strain it with like? Athena: 00:15:25 You don't even have to strain it. You just like warm up some milk. And if you have, you know some like yogurt that has live cultures, after it like cools down a little bit, you mix the culture in and then you just keep it warm for like eight hours and then you have yogurt. Emily: 00:15:39 Perfect. See now I'm going to add that to my, like zombie survival things in the back of my head. Dave: 00:15:43 So here's a question then, based on this yogurt idea. Athena: 00:15:45 I guess I shouldn't have told you because now you don't really have an incentive to keep me alive Emily: 00:15:49 Don't worry. I know you know zombie stuff so I'll keep you around on my zombie team. [laughter] Dave: 00:15:54 So where would we get resources though? Right? Cause to make yogurt, I mean I could make a gallons worth of yogurt and then I think then I have to head to the supermarket where I'm assuming there's, Emily: 00:16:04 You're going to be a target. You don't want to go to the supermarket. Dave: 00:16:06 Yeah, so how do you get, how do you get food and stuff? I have, I have a basil plant and a fridge full of berries. So I think I'm good for like two days? Athena: 00:16:16 But once the power is out too, don't open the fridge. Emily: 00:16:20 Don't open the fridge. Athena: 00:16:21 Unless, and if you do, like, take a bunch of stuff out. Athena: 00:16:23 Unless you're going to eat everything. [Athena agrees] You can only open it basically once if the power's out. [Athena agrees] Dave: 00:16:27 Okay. [laughter] Emily: 00:16:27 The first thing, honestly, I would do if anything was happening, and I've heard this in survivor classes I've taken,do, unless you can leave before everyone else, do not leave. Stay in your home and board up for like the first week because it's going to be chaos. So you want to be trying to avoid as much chaos as possible. So the first thing honestly though, how would you, was drinking? Water's going to be so key. And I know here in Arizona, right? We have the pools, but unless you have a ceramic filter in addition to iodine pills, you can't drink the chlorinated water really. So fill up your bathtub. I'd fill up bathtubs, buckets, anything you can to just hold the water to at least get you through that first week. Athena: 00:17:00 That's assuming that we have water coming out of the tap. Emily: 00:17:02 That is very valid. So, that's why you have water supplies in your house. So I have water and I have probably canned food. Um, and I do actually have some of those emergency meals that I keep in the back of my car. That's also in my, uh, zombie apocalypse kit. They taste like shortbread, they're delicious, but there's a super high fat, um super high carb to get you through a couple of days. Athena: 00:17:22 Awesome. Dave: 00:17:22 How big is your car zombie survival kit? Emily: 00:17:25 It's a backpack. Yeah, it's a little heavy, but it's a backpack and if I really, I have an additional first aid kit that I would try to probably carry. But no, everything to me, needs to be able to fit in like a bag and your two hands. Dave: 00:17:37 Cool. Athena: 00:17:38 Yeah, that makes sense. It's like, it kind of reminds me of like my survival strategy when I'm traveling, which is; never have a suitcase that you can't or like any like what you're traveling with, you have to be able to carry it with your sel, by yourself and with the shoes that you're currently wearing. Emily: 00:17:53 Yes. Lift it above your head. Yeah. [laughter] Athena: 00:17:56 But I mean there's not going to, you can't really rely on like your roller board in the zombie apocalypse too, right? Cause you're not going to be like going through whatever terrain with a roller board. Emily: 00:18:04 Yeah and thinking about human cooperation. Do you want to be with the person who's lugging around two giant suitcases or the person with a backpack? You want the backpack for mobility. [Athena agrees] Dave: 00:18:13 But you were just saying that we probably want to stay inside, right? so, Emily: 00:18:16 Oh I, yeah, that's my personal thing. I would stay inside for the first week. I would literally board-up, pretend that no one's there, defend your home if you need to because ideally you have resources in your home. So like my bug out bag in my car is primarily to get me to my house where all my other supplies are. And that's where, if I could, which would be hard because it would be probably a full day or two's walk to get to my house from ASU right now. Athena: 00:18:39 Wow. Yeah. Okay. So I feel like there's an awesome like line that we're kind of going on now, which is like that we in a way have been disempowered about doing all sorts of things that we like can do for ourselves that would actually be useful skills to have when and if the shit hits the fan. But, like have we kind of been zombified by all of what we're in now to like lose some feelings of agency and intentionality about taking care of ourselves? Emily: 00:19:11 I think so. And I think I've read a lot of scholarship too, and talked about it. The idea that especially phones, right? That the fact that you have a smartphone with Internet, I do it all the time. It's like, "oh well I don't know how to do x. Let me just look it up on youtube and we watch a video". But yeah, when that's taken away and our agency even to get knowledge is taken away. I think that's a huge panic moment. So, I think we have been zombified in some ways in that? Yes, if we're talking about becoming too reliant. Do I think that all technology or whatever has made us like, mindless hordes of moving people? No, personal opinion, I don't think that. Athena: 00:19:43 Yeah. In fact, the fact, you know, just that you can go online and learn how to fix anything and do anything now, that's huge. I mean we have access to brains like we never have had before. Right? Emily: 00:19:54 Yeah, I like that. Think about the Internet, which can be a trash place as a network of brains that you get to, just get to connect with all different kinds of people and knowledge so you can make your own little survival stock as best as possible. Athena: 00:20:06 Right. So we're actually in a really good position to learn all sorts of stuff that could help us survive if things got really bad. It's just, all of that is going to go away if things get really bad. So like, we have to do it before. Emily: 00:20:24 I have a notebook actually also in my zombie, I'm thinking of all these things that are just popping up, um, in my zombie survival kit and a notebook and pen, and pencil because if it gets wet, the pen will run. So it should be in pencil. My science grade teacher in like seventh grade taught me that. So, thanks Mrs. Maggish. [laughter] Um, but no, writing down things. Like when I take a survival course I'm like, "oh, this is exactly how you would stitch up a wound", I will write it down. So, even if I can't retain it in my brain currently, at least I will have a non-electronic way of referring to it. Athena: 00:20:53 Yeah. So I wonder if the whole like coming back full circle now to the horror thing, right. And like horror as this way of imagining yourself in these situations. Um, maybe it's a way of like motivating us to actually take advantage of what we, you know, all the opportunities we have now to be prepared so that we're not screwed when that stuff really happens. Emily: 00:21:19 Exactly. I mean like, the CDC famously put out their zombie survival, you know, recommendations for whatever would happen. I think they're doing the same thing a lot of horror fans are kind of at least talking about. Of, you know, well, what is your zombie survival strategy? Or you know, who's on your zombie survival team? You know, even serial killer movies and slashers, right. What do you not do? Don't separate. Don't go in the basement. Like there are rules that horror movies teach us for survival. But there are also escapists. I mean, I'm not trying to say that, you know, go watch Hannibal Lecter or whatever and you're going to learn the secrets to the universe. But I think that it's a dual thing. So it's escape, but it's also practical knowledge. Athena: 00:21:55 Did you listen to that podcast Dirty John? Emily: 00:21:58 Yes. Yes! Athena: 00:21:58 So, spoiler alert, but did you, did you listen to it? Dave: 00:22:02 No I haven't listened to it. Athena: 00:22:02 Okay. You might want to cover your ears and go la, la, la, la. Dave: 00:22:07 I don't want to do that. I'd rather hear it now. Emily: 00:22:08 The Walking Dead saved her life, basically. Dave: 00:22:11 Really? Emily: 00:22:11 Yes. Which is insane. And that's not even, that's like low levels spoiler. But yeah, The Walking Dead saves someone's life. Dave: 00:22:19 Huh, I'll check it out. Emily: 00:22:19 Yeah, it's a great example of real world, how thinking about how you would kill someone attacking you actually worked in her favor. Athena: 00:22:29 Has anybody actually done research on this? Like, Emily: 00:22:33 I don't know. I haven't read it. I'd be curious to know if it's out there and if it isn't, it should be. [Athena agrees] Dave: 00:22:38 On which, on which aspect? Athena: 00:22:38 On like the extent to which people, you know, reading about or seeing movies or just imagining future or, you know, uh, situations where they might be under threat and what they would do that, if that actually contributes to them having better outcomes, I mean. Emily: 00:22:57 There's gotta be a way to test that without actually pointing a gun at someone. Right? There's gotta be some scientific method to figure it out. [Athena agrees] We should do that. Dave: 00:23:07 You could look at, I'm trying to think if you look at like police officers that are somebody who's already in a life and death situation. Emily: 00:23:11 That's really good point. Yeah. Transferable skills Dave: 00:23:15 Look at how many Emily: 00:23:15 Yeah. How many horror movies do you watch? How many zombie movies do you watch? And does that correlate to something? Dave: 00:23:18 Yeah, something like that. And soldiers, you know? Emily: 00:23:22 Yeah, absolutely. Dave: 00:23:25 That's interesting. [Emily agrees] Interesting thought, so. Athena: 00:23:31 So, tell us a little bit more about, you know, this whole side of monsters that's like about us kind of challenging ourselves or like thinking differently. I know it's something that you've thought about a lot in you work. [laughter] Emily: 00:23:46 Yes. No, so I think monsters tend to exist in this liminal space where they're, even if they're not humanoid, they might have human characteristics or they have, you know, predator characteristics. So we have representations of our fears that tend to be very real in terms of, yeah, serial killer with a knife at your throat or if it's a dragon with giant talons. I mean there are animals in the real world that have these traits that could kill us. So you have this sort of real world aspect to them. And then you have the fictional where you know that dragon can fly through the air and shoot fire out of its mouth or whatever. And that's not based in reality necessarily, but it does represent our fears and our desires. So I think monsters show us who we are as humans. And by that I mean, what we're afraid of also tells us what we desire and what traits we think are good or bad. So I like to say a monster is any being, keeping it vague, any being that deviates from the quote unquote norm in terms of appearance or behavior and then has some kind of mythologies surrounding it. So yes, you could argue that certain humans fit the monster, um, definition, at least for me. But I think ultimately monsters show us human history because none of this happens in a vacuum, right? That there's even Mary Shelley's famous example pops in my head, right? Frankenstein. Looking at that as a way to think about the enlightenment post enlightenment, the French Revolution about new sciences and technologies coming about, even women being educated and the role of education in the world becoming actually something of value. So that's one example of something I think all monsters do. Athena: 00:25:17 Can you say a little more about that Frankenstein example? Like how is it of that time? Like what is it that you know, you see in there that is reflecting this larger sort of zeitgeist, I guess. Emily: 00:25:28 Oh, absolutely! So I think like all good texts, this is my own personal like philosophy on literature and life, in general. Is that you have the authors, you have their background and their experiences, and even if they're not even intentionally trying to put certain meaning into texts, you have their experience. So Mary Shelley, for example, her mother was Mary Wollstonecraft, who was a famous protofeminist, um, writer and she was actually a recognized writer at the time. And she dies in childbirth giving birth to Mary. So, and then her father, William Godwin, would actually take her to her mother's grave on a regular basis. There's even some evidence, they at least kissed, Mary and her lover, Percy Shelley, who became her husband, eventually, um, had at least their first kiss on her mother's grave. [Athena comments, "wow"] Potentially did more than, other firsts on her mother's grave. [Athena exclaims, "Whaaat?"] Yeah. So, she literally was so involved with death, but also the idea of losing a mother and losing a parent. So a lot of, um, literary scholars have approached the original Frankenstein text in some ways of like Frankenstein being sort of the mother figure or Frankenstein's creature is lacking a mother figure and how that influences their lives. So that's the mental of how like Mary Shelly's personal experience. Then you have actual geography and location. So Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein after the dare of 1816, um, which was basically because of the year without a summer. So 1816, there was this giant volcanic explosion that was literally so big that it create, it changed the atmosphere. Um, so like the ash cloud and everything, meant there wasn't as much sun and that there wasn't as, and it rained a lot, right? So its the environment trying to rain it out. New Speaker: 00:27:04 So, it was like a mini apocalypse, Emily: 00:27:05 Pretty much in someways. I mean she was like in Villa De Le Dotties. So it was like vacation, just like, oh no, we're trapped inside. [laughter] And that turned into, you know. Athena: 00:27:11 It was a vacation apocalypse. [Emily agrees] Right? Trapped inside and you're on vacation. Emily: 00:27:18 And that, because she was inside and she along with like Percy and Byron, other people in this home on this vacation, were bored essentially. So, they dared each other to come up with the scariest story imaginable. And that's where she got the first idea for Frankenstein. But part of it is reliant on the concept of Galvanism, which was a science that was around that period that they believed basically that you could shock, with an electric current, shock a dead body and bring it back to life. Which, we know now when they were seeing things were, you know, residual muscle twitches. But they were like, "oh my gosh", you know, "the frog's been reanimated" and they would actually do this practice. Um, so in front of the public sometimes, and even things like dissection, like human anatomy was arising during the beginning of the 19th century as well. And it was actually like the cooler thing to do is like go to a public lecture where they would dissect a body and talk about it. So yeah. And then literal uprising of bodies, French Revolution, American revolution. So England was in this weird phase where they were involved, but it wasn't necessarily happening on their soil. So Frankenstein's creature I think represents all of these things. So Mary Shelley's world, but also British national identity, the idea of different sciences coming into play. Dave: 00:28:34 So why was that scary to people at the time? Like, its something that could have been exciting, right? Emily: 00:28:40 I think it was a little bit of both. Um, for people, which I think all good horror does do that. It should be scary but also exciting. Um, so in terms of do you mean Frankenstein being scary, like the text? [Dave confirms] A couple, I mean it does have like Gothic spooky elements, right? With thunderstorms and darkness and you know, people are murdered in somewhat horrific ways and um, but I think people really didn't find it maybe as scary but as exciting. Yeah, dealing with the Gothic is a little bit different. But, I think people were though afraid that the possibility of the way science was going and even the way intellectual thought was going, right. New ideas as galvanizing a nation. You know, bringing them to sort of a different kind of awareness and the creature represents that thing. And then Frankenstein represents not just the mad scientist, but you know what happens when maybe morality is taken out of some of the decisions that you're making in the world. It doesn't just affect one person. You know, you don't just get a creature. You get how that creature then interacts and spoiler alert couple hundred years later, right. The creature does end up killing, um, quite a few people and people important to Frankenstein. So, I think that's indicative in some ways of like, okay, maybe you kill one person. What's the domino effect of that? And that, I think was definitely on the minds of everyone after hundreds of thousands of people were dying at the time. Athena: 00:29:57 So how does the idea of the monster or a monster in general relate to agency and intentionality and you know, those kinds of concepts? Is there a clear relationship? Emily: 00:30:09 I don't think I can say that there is based, because I think every monster is different. I think even every version of like a zombie is different. I think there's like five different kinds of zombies. At least five. Athena: 00:30:19 Oh, would you, Okay .Okay, tell us, tell us the five. Emily: 00:30:20 I hope to do an episode about this um, next season on Monstrum for a series, so I think you have the Haitian Zombie. So, the Voodoo Zombie, then you have the Romero zombie, which is the first time an undead corpse was associated with both eating flesh and being able to be killed by removing the head or destroying the brain. Then you have what I call the rage zombie, and that's the 2002 named after the 28 days later where it's, they're not necessarily dead, um, or it's more a biological cause, but, and they move fast, right? Romero zombies are slow rage zombies are fast. Then you have the metaphorical zombie, which I know is kind of a cop out because in some ways they're all metaphors, but there are some horror texts where it's just like "I came back to haunt you but not as a ghost, like an actual physical corpse". And then you have, I call the hive zombie, which is where they're usually fast and there is not just a couple hundred or couple thousand but little literally millions of zombies. So World War Z is a good example of that, of the terrifying scene. And they move often like a hive, they have some shared. Athena: 00:31:21 Do they have some sort of collective intentionality? Emily: 00:31:24 Some versions, they do. Some they don't. Um, yeah. Some people do believe in different horror stories that zombies can communicate in various ways. Dave: 00:31:30 Now, the metaphorical zombie like, cause yeah, like you were saying, [Emily says, "it's like the catchall. Yeah.] Aren't the other, are the, are the other four types metaphors for different things? Emily: 00:31:40 Yes. Absolutely. So maybe a better way for metaphor would be like revenge zombie where the zombie ren-animates itself for a larger purpose rather than being bitten or you know, an asteroid or some kind of biological germ. Dave: 00:31:57 So, would that be like the mummy, would that sort of be similar? Emily: 00:32:00 Yeah. So I love mumm. I love anything undead. So I try to group all of that -[laughter] So fun to say!- Um, I group all of that into the undead. Which is of reanimated human corpse. Um, so mummies, definitely. For like, yeah, you could argue that the mummy is a revenge zombie. You could, yeah. Dave: 00:32:17 Whereas the Romero zombie, it also, er, uh, does it reanimate itself or is it reanimated through a spell? Emily: 00:32:22 We actually don't, like I'm pretty sure Ramero's vague about why. But, um, Haitian zombies, yes. Are directly related to Bokor. Um, which is a Voodoo priest who practices dark magic. So there is some spells stuff there, but also the literal poison, the zombie poison. Um, there's been a lot of studies done about that. And I do want to say, I mean people still in Haiti, zombies are real to them. Like the way they define zombies, zombies are 100% something that can happen. There are even people who have come out and been interviewed and said, "I am a zombie. Like I was dead and then I was exhumed and now I'm walking around again". And they usually just don't have like their soul.[Athena says, "whaat?"] It gets super complicated because yeah. So at death, like when you sign a death certificate in Haiti, you essentially, that mean, you have a birth certificate and the death certificate negates the birth certificate, obviously. Right. But then people who are coming back saying, "I'm alive again". They actually don't have like a national identity or they're not even recognized as part of, cause they can't be because you can't give a rebirth certificate. It's fascinating.[Athena says, "Wow"] Yeah and I don't unfortunately know enough about Haitian Voodoo zombies or at least how they conceptualize zombies. I would like to. Um, but yeah, I think it's important to recognize that a zombie is not just, you know, a reanimated fictional thing that goes around eating people's brains. Like, zombies are so much broader than that. Athena: 00:33:44 Yeah. Well, just hearing you talk about the like weird legal space, it's like, talk about a liminal existence like, you're like, alive, but your technically legally dead. Emily: 00:33:56 I think a lot of undead stuff does that. Where other, you know, other types of monsters maybe can't because the undead, you know, were once humans. What happens when the human body is walking around? Again, this brings up questions of life, right? So, are they alive? Do they have souls? What constitutes a soul? What constitutes consciousness? I mean, just because their brains are telling them to go around ripping maybe the flesh off other people's faces. The brain is still working, right? So are they alive? Are they not? So that's why I just say, reanimated. [Athena agrees] Dave: 00:34:27 What are like the, the monsters in Us, have you seen Us? Emily: 00:34:30 Oh yes. Doppelgangers. Dave: 00:34:34 Right. So? Emily: 00:34:36 So doppelganger is a really old concept that exists in lots of different, um, cultures and communities that there's literally one other person that looks exactly like you. That's, that, it's kind of a expansion of the evil twin concept. That you have another person walking around who usually is worse than you in some ways or maybe better than you. Um, and I don't know enough about doppelganger history, but I think Us also represents a larger trend I've identified in at least, um, horror movies. That were going back to this whole evil pagan cult situation, or like cults and paganism, again, I think are being themes. Um, Hereditary is an example. I don't want to give away too many because, even Get Out's, an example, right? Of a sort of a cult-like mentality, the idea of a religion or one idea being infectious and being the big bad that turns people evil. Dave: 00:35:27 So why do you think that that's catching on these days? Emily: 00:35:29 Oh. It's complicated. Um, a couple reasons. I think because ideas about religion are changing in general and I think more and more people are moving away from maybe having this strict beliefs that certain, you know, religions do preach to. And also, I think we're seeing an uptick in people who do believe in um, Pagan or Wiccan or other non-monotheistic traditions. And I think that's happening. But also I think the world is kind of in a shit place right now in terms of, not just literally, but I think there's kind of going back to the idea of the mind connection with the Internet. There's so many ideas and in some ways that's really, really awesome. Like we were talking about not just survival but exposure and community and all those things, but at the same time, that also means that that one person can become like a germ or like a virus and sort of infect other people's minds. Um, and we're like, we can do that because of communication and technology. Whereas, you know, hundreds of years ago you wrote a letter. If the letter got to where it was supposed to be going, which got lost all the time, or if like a ship crash then there goes all the mail there. I mean it would take months if not years to communicate to different parts of the globe. And I think that's something to think about now. Um, but to yeah, to go back to the pagan thing. Dave: 00:36:46 Yeah. So it's like now it's people cause, and like Get Out it's like people controlling other people sort of against their will, right? Sort of mind control. Emily: 00:36:56 Yeah and I think a lot of the like beast-type monsters, so, dragons crackens, um, kymeras, anything, you know more animal based. Personally, at least from what I've experienced in research with the ones I do know about, a lot of that has to go to an animal or a behavior or like a fossil that we don't understand. Whereas, now, I think science for good or for bad has taken out a lot of the mystery and some of those things. So we, I think are forced to turn to each other as being the monsters. We see more human monsters. So you could argue that's even one of the reasons we've seen an uptick in zombie movies or undead stuff. Um, you know, us being the true monsters as humans. Also, um, yeah, the cult stuff, pagan stuff, serial killer stuff. I mean serial killer industry is having a huge boom right now of people being. Athena: 00:37:46 Really? Emily: 00:37:46 Yes. I mean Mind Hunter. Athena: 00:37:47 Serial Killer Industry. [laughter] What's going on Emily: 00:37:49 Um, but yeah, the idea of selling different TV shows or movies or books about real life serial killers or fictional serial killers, we've seen a lot of. And again, there's been interest in all of these things throughout the majority of human history. But I think yeah, access and accessibility, that's the same thing. Dave: 00:38:10 It's sort of like there's, like, sort of trends, right? And sometimes like vampires were really big. Zombies, I feel like were really big and now I feel like this sort of mind control thing. [Emily agrees] And then also there's like the, The Ring Girl and like versions of her were really big for awhile. Athena: 00:38:29 The what? Dave: 00:38:29 The girl from The Ring. Emily: 00:38:31 I would say like the ghosts had a big moment and like Poltergeist kind of thing where the ghost being able to somehow touch you or interact with your world. And I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for this, but I think ghosts aren't as exciting as the undead. I think there's something so powerful about the idea that it's not the person's, like spirit that's coming back or like, and usually they're vengeful, if a ghost is coming back. But literally the body that you potentially were talking to two days ago is now coming at you, maybe trying to eat you. I think the corporeality of the undead is really significant. Athena: 00:39:04 So, is there anything, like, more about this, like sort of, monsters in particular points in time and like, what's happening now that you want to share with us? Emily: 00:39:15 Just I think the idea that we need to recognize monsters as having meaning. That they do pop up at certain times or in certain areas or with certain people. Not just because someone published a book that was really successful. You have to think about why that book was successful or why that movie is so talked about and really examine ourselves, I guess, as the beings who both create and consume the monsters. So what do we want right now? What do we fear right now? And I can't really think of any other like big monster trends at the moment. People always ask like, what do you think? You know, it's going to be like five years from now or, and I don't know yet because I don't think I know enough about where the world's going to be. And again, this is, I mean, what's a monster for United States of America is completely different potentially from a monster in Mexico or in South Korea versus North Korea even. Their monsters are going to look different because those are different experiences in different communities. Athena: 00:40:09 So people are sort of coming with different cultural backgrounds. And then also there are present, like the political and economic, social environment that they're in, is different. Emily: 00:40:19 Yeah. And that's one thing I've really tried to do with my research is show that even the idea of like El Chupacabra has a history. Athena: 00:40:26 What, what's that? Emily: 00:40:27 El Chupacabras. I'm doing an episode about it.[laughter] I'm really excited. So depending, it originated in Puerto Rico, um, but, basically that version is a, it means goat sucker. So there was a trend of livestock suddenly dying, like, by the hundreds and no one knew what was causing it. And they did usually have two puncture wounds in their neck. Um, so a lot of other things are going on, so they have to watch the episode to find out about that. Um, but that traveled and actually people, I know students, personally, who have been like, "Oh yeah, we've seen a Chupacabras or my family believes in them 100%. because you have cultural traditions, but also oral tradition and history. So that also comes sort of against what's going on in the present right now. So, I mean, you see it, if anyone finds like a dog with mange, like in the desert, it's like, "Have you found the Chupacabras? Like is this it?" Its become this sort of mythological, almost folk hero in a way, for some people. Dave: 00:41:26 It, it's like, its humanoid, right? Emily: 00:41:26 It depends on the version. So not really. More animalistic um, than humanoid for sure. Although sometimes they have intelligence. Dave: 00:41:36 Oh, is it, is it, does it run on two legs or does it? Emily: 00:41:39 So there's like I got that so frustrating. There's basically two different versions. So there's a two legged one that usually has big eyes, kind of looks more like a gray man alien in terms of like head shape, might have wings, might have a really long tongue. Um, definitely has to have fangs though, might have claws. So that one's usually two legged. And then there's the four legged, which more looks like, yeah, like a sick coyote or a dog where it's four legged. Um, it just looks kind of scary, which I think is fascinating, right? That there's a monster there just because maybe a dog or a coyote or a raccoon or something literally has a disease and looks abnormal that we make it a monster, automatically. Just cause we don't know how to confront the thing that's outside of our norm. Athena: 00:42:20 Hmm. So is there oftentimes like a relationship between disease and monstrosity? Emily: 00:42:26 Yeah, I think that there definitely tends to be. Um, absolutely. Even going back to looking at things like, um, carnivals, right? Where they had, you know, like the elephant man, which has a disease. Um, so absolutely twins were considered evil in many different cultures for very long period of time. Um, conjoined twins, even people with dwarfism. Yeah. It goes back to my definition of a monster, right. Anytime you have someone who even appears abnormal and then make usually a negative story around that person or that group of people, you get a monster. Athena: 00:42:56 Hmm. So then that kind of actually starts linking in with this broader conversation that's happening now about ability and like thinking and talking differently about people with, you know, who have different abilities and giving them the chance to name themselves. Emily: 00:43:11 Exactly, yeah. Cause that's what also comes down to, as monster, is, very few people are going around saying, yes, I am a monster, in a lot of horror texts. We don't see that as much. It's usually someone else, usually a human, pointing a finger at that person or that thing and saying it's a monster or it's monstrous. Athena: 00:43:27 And it's almost like once you do that, once you say, hey, that's a monster, then that idea, it kind of becomes viral, right? It has a life of its own in the minds of people. [Athena and Emily agree] Emily: 00:43:39 Another way to think about it too, is how, historically and culturally and even language, how things change, right? So I watched an episode about the Draugr, which is essentially the Icelandic undead monster. And in some cases their, I mean, they're always reanimated corpses. Sometimes they do eat, people or eat flesh or drink blood. So what's the difference between that and a zombie and a vampire? It's just the name in a lot of ways and the location where it comes from. Dave: 00:44:05 Did that, uh, did that become like, I'm trying to think, did those all sort of spring up on their own or was it like a tradition that sort of moved from society to society? Emily: 00:44:18 I think it depends. I do, I'm still doing my research on that and ultimately I would love to, you know, do an edited collection of different scholars from across the world talking about their culture's, undead thing. Um, but I've found the majority places, um, have some kind of undead monster and usually when one is absent, it's because their religious practices mean like, um, cremation. So if the body's gone right, you can't have a random body without the body. But for people who, yeah, maybe buried their dead or preserve their dead in some way, there's always an undead creature, least that I found so far. So we'll have to see. Yeah. Dave: 00:44:52 So you said a lot of people ask you about where it's going. Yes. In terms of right now, what do you think is the scariest type of thing? Athena: 00:45:01 The scariest type of monster right now? Dave: 00:45:03 What taps into sort of, modern fears? Athena: 00:45:08 I think it's really not, and this is, I feel this way about all monster movies, in general. Usually the monster is the scapegoat or the red herring for the true monster, which usually is how humans react to the monster and how they treat each other. Um, so I think actually the idea of the culture of mind control is big right now because we're all so afraid of not being in control of ourselves and our own ideas. That's what I think right now. We're seeing a lot of. Dave: 00:45:36 Makes sense. Athena: 00:45:37 So, sort of this podcast? Emily: 00:45:38 Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Something that we haven't really had a lot of, I mean Ex Machina is a good robot one, that horror movie. But, we haven't seen that many robot or like, bad A.I., Which is kind of surprising, I'm terrified of robots. Terrified. I'm absolutely terrified. Dave: 00:45:57 Yeah. Since like the Terminator which was like the aliens. Emily: 00:45:59 Yeah and the ones that I can think of aren't as popular. So, Terminator you have I Robot you have Ex Mahina. There, I'm trying to think of, I'm sure there's a couple that came in the last like year or two that I haven't seen, but Athena: 00:46:12 I haven't seen Westworld. But it's almost [Emily has an epiphany moment, "Oh, yeah Westworld"] I mean I've, I know just a little bit about it, but, right. It's like humans are the monsters for creating this world or the supposed monsters. So it's like they, yeah. Dave: 00:46:27 Well, It's a good one because it's, if you watched though, I only watched the first season, but the last episode of the first season is, yeah, sort of turns it a little. Athena: 00:46:35 Okay. I will watch it and then we can talk about it. Emily: 00:46:36 It is kind of like Ex Machina where basically, there becomes an issue where, what's a robot and what's a human? Not just like, by definition but physically like would I be able to tell the difference between the two of you if one of you is a robot or not? And I think part of my fear with technology is that we not going to be able to. Athena: 00:46:55 Well, but you know what? Like, to the extent that we're all already living in a digital world, like, I mean it's super easy to set up a program that can pass the Turing Test, which is, you know, like seeming like a human. So there's already so many, you know, software robots online that will interact with- Emily: 00:47:13 Oh, and some people even argue that we are all, if you have a smartphone, you are an android. Because it's become so, such a piece of technology we rely on that we carry with us almost always. [Athena agrees] Athena: 00:47:23 My neighbor just brought up how like, after you die, your digital identity sticks around forever. And he said that apparently by something like 2050, there'll be more people online who are dead than alive. Emily: 00:47:40 That's terrifying. But, I mean then that's, think of Black Mirror, I mean Black Mirror is a great example of modern day horror, right, of how the technologies that we currently have can have all kinds of different monstrous, well, I don't know, I just said it like that, monstrous, horrific elements. Athena: 00:47:58 Yeah, totally. And I love that show. It's like one of the few things that I actually really watch semi-religiously. Um, but a bunch of the episodes aren't even about like, any fictional technology. They're just about the technology that actually already exists. And then kind of like, taking it to it's, you know, monstrous conclusion. If you let it go. So, Emily: 00:48:24 No, I agree. So yeah, I think it's probably technology being monsters right now. And then again, cults or some kind of mass group of people because again, it's not, a lot of cults might be, you know, based on following a religion or one person, but it's still a person. It's not, most of the time, like you know, you're worshiping a ghost or a vampire or whatever. It's another human. So I think human based monsters are really big right now. Dave: 00:48:49 What do you, what do you think is sort of behind there's like, like, the past like, two or three years since like Stranger Things. There's like a retro monster sot of thing. What do you think? What's the deal with that? I guess. Emily: 00:49:01 I think part of it is nostalgic. I really do believe that, I mean, I'm trying to think, even, I'm so excited for like the new Godzilla movie, like the idea that Kaijus are coming back, like that's awesome to me. I love that. Um, and I think part of it is boredom also. I mean it's, there's only so many times you can see like, terrible humans onscreen doing terrible things to each other. Dave: 00:49:20 Right cause those, those are both kind of fun. [Emily agrees] Both Stranger Things and Godzilla, like I don't think of Godzilla as scary. Emily: 00:49:26 Because its a fantasy element. And I think that goes back to where a lot of horror, um, originates from in some ways. Like I was saying, right, that there's sort of two sides to every monster. There's the fictional side and then the nonfiction part. And I think with, we like to think about the fiction and make it a little less scary because you know, The Upside Down, God willing, does not actually exist. And the things coming out of it, you know, the Demogorgons aren't actually real, but, we still have, again, animals on this planet, besides humans, that could kill us. Like, people get killed by tigers and bears all the time. Yeah. Athena: 00:50:00 I wonder if there's almost something that happens when you have that piece that is clearly fiction where you're like, "okay, I'm going to suspend my disbelief". And then maybe that allows you to go places in your mind you can't otherwise go. Emily: 00:50:14 I absolutely believe that. [Dave agrees] And I think again, Stranger Things, like all good horror text, talks about so many different things besides just monsters, right? About the idea of government experimentation, government control, how familial relationships play out on that show. And I think those things are easier for us to digest as an audience if they're under the guise of monster or under the guise of fiction. Dave: 00:50:38 Right. They have really big friendship themes. Like, they, they show, like, people working together, which you don't see in like Ex Machina at all. [Emily and Dave agree] And so, yeah and Ex Machina is much harder to watch like for me, I think, you know? Emily: 00:50:50 Yeah, yeah. And I think cause Ex Machina, at least for me, brings up issues about, is she real? Like, and then what is re- like, what's real? Like how do I constitute a person? Those sort of existential questions, even for me get a little tiring to think about too much. So, the idea of Stranger Things or even the White Walkers or dragons in Game of Thrones, right? The, it's fantasy. So there's that suspension that allows you to also disassociate emotionally. So you're scared in a safe way. [Dave agrees] Athena: 00:51:21 I have a question about, um, you sort of brought up this thing about like, you know, cults and worshiping and like we talked about technology some, before. Like in the sort of history of monsters, like, what is this sort of role of like, technology? Is it, is like, there a danger in sort of worshiping technology or seeing it like as this thing that itself is like the giver of life? And so I'm just wondering if like there's this sort of angle there, cause it seems like we're also now at a time where there's almost this like worship of technology, in a way, right, like? Emily: 00:51:58 No, I think anytime you have a change in a largely systemic belief, you're going to have confrontation for that. You're going to have fear of that. I mean, we fear the unknown, right? So if someone all of a sudden is even telling you, "Holy shit, the earth is round", that's going to scare people because it goes outside of what they've been taught and what they think is normal. Athena: 00:52:17 But Emily, you don't have to fear the unknown, if you can just ask Google. Emily: 00:52:20 Yeah. Right. Yeah. [laughter] Athena: 00:52:23 Ask, ask Google, all your questions. Emily: 00:52:25 I have questions of like, who then, is programming Google to bring up certain things in certain phrases or words and to which people and what audience? And that again, robots, coding tech freak me out. Dave: 00:52:35 And I do think that that in both Ex Machina and Westworld, that's a big thing. Is, this idea of they've presented as people thinking about, "oh, what can this, what can this technology do for us?" And then, a lot of times when the twist comes, it's like, "oh, maybe the technology isn't really thinking about us". Emily: 00:52:52 Yeah. It's not for us, even. Yeah. Dave: 00:52:54 So I do think that, that sort of, that idea of the worship, like, I think that is becoming a fear of we are like getting so excited about this. Emily: 00:53:00 So many monsters start that way. Where it's one thing sort of losing control or becoming more powerful than initially, they thought. And yeah, that's where the fear comes from. We want to be able to control things. So when we can't, I think we're afraid of them. Athena: 00:53:14 Hmm. So it's almost like when the monsters sort of develop their own autonomy. Yeah. Emily: 00:53:19 Fido is a really good example of a zombie movie that does that. So, in Fido, which is hilarious. It's like a zombie comedy. Athena: 00:53:25 ZomCom? [laughter] Emily: 00:53:25 Zomcom. The zomcom, they have zombies and no one is scared of them because they developed these collars that basically allow them to become slaves or servants, slaves being the more appropriate term for the situation that they're in, to be honest. Um, and then, if, well people only panic when the collar, like if it gets taken off, right. So the idea, they're not even scared of them anymore, even though they could eat them because they assume that they're under their control and that they won't. Dave: 00:53:51 Huh. That sounds pretty good. I never head of that before. Emily: 00:53:54 There's a zombie-human romance that is actually very endearing and not as creepy as you would expect. Athena: 00:53:59 That sounds very creepy, but I'll take your word for it. Emily: 00:54:02 It's also set in like the 50s, so it's very, you know, like Stepford Wives, but with zombies. Athena: 00:54:07 That does sound like a lot of fun. [Emily and Athena both agree] So, uh, so we always talk abou,t sort of, your version of the zombie apocalypse of like whatever kind of zombification we've been talking about. We've kind of been having a sort of free-ranging conversation. We did, like, at the beginning, talk a little bit about almost like being zombified by feeling like, you, you know, can't actually do stuff. Right? So we talked about that and we talked about monsters, a lot. And maybe even like the idea that monsters can, like the idea of monsters can zombify you. Dave: 00:54:43 Yeah. The idea of fear. The way fear, sort of, we haven't really talked about how fear controls us. I mean that's the thing, theoretically. [Athena and Emily agree] Athena: 00:54:50 But, so you can take the zombie apocalypse in whatever direction you want to take it. So what is, but what's your version, like if we take these kinds of ideas and we just like amplify them, like what kind of zombie apocalypse are we in? Emily: 00:55:07 Are we currently in? Athena: 00:55:10 No. What, what would, what would we be in? Like, we're, we're like, you know, imagining now that the stuff that we've been talking about, but just like way more intense than what it is. So what is that zombie apocalypse? Emily: 00:55:21 I were to say the most likely thing that would happen for a zombie apocalypse. And what by, I define zombie apocalypse as people who cannot, that are down to their base brain function and that turn against other humans. Um, I think that would, and reanimated corpses, undead, I do think that all true zombies are undead. Um, I think it's going to be biological and that's either going to be a bio-weapon that we can't control or a bio-weapon released on purpose. But I do think for a real zombification would require a chemical change in the brain or a physical change in the structure of the brain. Um, and there's stuff that does that already. Like those ants that can get infected with the zombie parasite and it completely changes their behavior. Athena: 00:56:04 Oh, yeah. The Cordyceps Fungus. Emily: 00:56:05 So I think it's more likely that something like that will either, with human intervention, jump to humans or even just evolution, something nuts happens. Because, I don't think we can truly ever understand nature in all of her glory. So I think there's still can be some surprises. Athena: 00:56:21 Maybe our microbiomes have already completely zombified us. And the only reason that we're sitting here like doing a podcast about zombification is because, our microbes want us to. [Emily enthusiastically agrees][everyone laughs] Dave: 00:56:35 So I have another sort of apocalypse variation. Like, cause we talked about how we're, we're consuming this media to sort of prepare us, right? So is there an apocalypse version where we're either intentionally mis- prepared by this media or we consume the wrong type that then causes us to be completely unable to. Emily: 00:56:59 That makes me think of like robot apocalypse, right? That we think these things are here to help us. Then one day they're going to get sentience or all come together as their own population and if every person has a robot in your home that everyone potentially be killed by a robot in their home. Dave: 00:57:13 Yeah. What I was picturing is actually probably not classically a horror movie was Wally. Emily: 00:57:18 Yes. Wally is a great example! Yeah. That is technically an apocalypse. [Everyone agrees] Athena: 00:57:23 So, the cruise ship version. Where, it's like, everything is programmed for you and you just push a little button and it takes you from one place to another. Emily: 00:57:34 In some way, I think that's an extension of other dystopian stuff that we've seen before with like 1984 and Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 right? That, we're going to have, things are gonna become almost too easy. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe horror maintains like, the human struggle, just enough for us to avoid going full apocalypse. Athena: 00:57:55 Hmm. Well yeah. So when the apocalypse is like, it's an apocalypse of giving up your autonomy, right? Then what you have to do is like push against it to like, you know, find like where is the real world, actually? right? Emily: 00:58:06 And what's interesting, and now that I'm thinking about it, is a lot of the time it's art that comes into play as the savior. Right? Even in Wally, he has like emotions because he watches like the musicals and stuff and 1984 is all about taking away all of that. So if maybe, that's what's going to say humanities will save us! Not science. [everyone laughs] Dave: 00:58:33 That's our final thing, right? Is how we survive the apocalypse. Athena: 00:58:35 Yeah. So we need horror on so many levels, I guess, to survive, to prepare for the apocalypse, to make sure that we don't get stuck in an apocalypse of our own creation where we've given up our autonomy. Emily: 00:58:47 That's the brilliant thing about all fiction. And you can interpret that in terms of movies and music and art or whatever. It's being able to express our imaginations and try out new ideas again, without physically having to do them, maybe ourselves. Um, you know, showing a painting of someone looking over the precipice of a tumultuous ocean. Right. I don't necessarily want to be doing that cause I'm afraid I'm going to fall in, but if I can view a beautiful painting or the artist gets to express that, then I think we have a cathartic element that allows our imaginations to sort of fly wherever they want. Athena: 00:59:20 Right. We can become disembodied that way. [Emily agrees] Yeah. [laughter] Emily: 00:59:23 Disembodied humanities. Dave: 00:59:26 So what is our one, the one thing listeners should do to prepare for the apocalypse? Emily: 00:59:31 So number one thing. Buy duct tape and keep it with you. And also be able to shoot a gun. Athena: 00:59:37 Oh really? I think there's, that's like Arizona advice too, right? Emily: 00:59:42 Yeah. I think that's United States of America advice. Athena: 00:59:45 United States of America? Emily: 00:59:46 Places, where I think there are other people could have guns. You should be able to use one if you need to. Duct tape. Duct tape before guns. Dave: 00:59:55 I assume amo will also be very valuable. [ Emily agrees] Athena: 00:59:58 You should make a shirt that says "Duct Tape Before Guns" [everyone laughs and agrees] Emily: 01:00:05 Duct Tape can do everything. Duct tape is everything. It can fix your shoes. You can actually run away. Athena: 01:00:09 I've one's fixed a shoe with Duct Tape. Emily: 01:00:11 You can use it for wounds. You can even, if you really wanted, use a rock and duct tape and like, a heavy stick and make a weapon. You do a lot of things with duct tape. Athena: 01:00:21 All right. Dave: 01:00:22 There we go. Athena: 01:00:23 So duct tape, duct tape before guns. Emily: 01:00:25 Duct tape before guns you should get that sponsored by whatever the duct tape company is. Athena: 01:00:28 Definitely. [everyone laughs] Well, Emily thank you so much for sharing your awesome brain with all of us. Emily: 01:00:34 Thank you so much for having me. This have been lovely. Yes. The brain infection. [laughter] Athena: 01:01:28 Thank you so much. Outro: 01:01:28 [Psychological by Lemi] Athena: 01:01:59 Thank you to the Department of Psychology and to ASU in general for supporting this podcast. Especially the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative, the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics and all of the students and staff who help support this, um, in my lab and beyond my lab. Thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance too. If you're looking for us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, we are zombifiedpod. On Patreon we are zombified and our website is zombified.org. Uh, please think about supporting us. We are an educational podcast. We have no ads and we really, uh, are very grateful for any support that you could give. Even just $1 a month will make a big difference for us. Thanks to all the brains that helped make this podcast too. Tal Rom, who does our sound, to Neil Smith, who does all of our awesome illustrations and to Lemi the artist behind our song, Psychological. Athena: 01:03:07 So at the end of every episode, I share some of my brains; offering something from my life. Maybe a story or some connection to my work or a wild speculation or, or just some thoughts. And so today, I wanted to talk a little bit about horror and how awesome I think the ideas of horror for engaging with real threat. So this is, you know, kind of what Emily talks about is how horror can allow us to engage with things that might be really, really scary. Um, things that might be really threatening but in a context that isn't threatening. And that allows us to kind of imagine our way through things, kind of simulate them in our heads in a way that allows us to potentially be better prepared if a really bad event does happen. And so, I think there's a really cool angle here of the potential of our collective imagination. So you're not just imagining as an individual, but imagining together. Athena: 01:04:24 Like if we think about what might happen in a zombie apocalypse and we do that together and we talk about it, that that can potentially be a way for us to be more prepared for disasters in general. So, like, for example, the conversation that Dave and I had with Emily, it made both me and Dave think a little bit about how we actually don't have the things that we need to just be prepared for a disaster and a kind of disaster that could potentially happen. Um, uh, you know, uh, we live in Tempe and actually, there is not that uncommon that there's floods here. I know that sounds weird because everybody thinks it's just hot here all the time, but we have, uh, monsoons in the spring and in the fall and there can be serious floods and people die every year because they're not ready for them. Athena: 01:05:21 And yeah, I don't even have enough sandbags now to barricade my house if I needed to do that. And, um, a couple of years ago when we were here, we needed to do that. So, I think there is an opportunity for just really leveraging that collective imagination. So imagine it and you know, a worst case scenario and what would you do and how would you handle that. And I think that's a really powerful way for us to start thinking about, you know, are we prepared? And kind of make that fun instead of just like feeling bad because you're not doing it or you haven't done it yet. So that makes me think I should maybe go ahead and bite the bullet and just put together my go pack and then I'll have it, um, and maybe get some more sand bags. So thank you for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains. Outro: 01:06:36 [Psychological by Lemi]