Athena: 00:00:04 Have you been zombified by your social network? Dave: 00:00:08 Yeah, I mean, lately I've been zombified by the collapse of my social network, amid coronavirus, you know? [Athena laughs] Um, no, like for real, like I it's, it's been, it's gotten smaller and fragmented. People have sort of moved like I've had- Yeah. It's, it's just weird. How about you? Athena: 00:00:28 Yeah. And we can't really get together in groups. So like that feeling of being around people who also know each other and enjoy being together, like that's kind of gone now. Dave: 00:00:42 Yeah. It is. It's a really weird, like it is, it's a, it's a weird new dynamic and it's almost like you even can't like, it's like, Oh, if you're a part of another group, if you have too many friends that aren't me, you can't be one of my friends because you're exposed to too many other people. So really, Yeah. Athena: 00:01:02 Yeah. It's a, it's a totally different world. And you know, and this episode with, uh, Tamas David-Barrett, we recorded it before the pandemic. But like the topic that we discuss is so relevant, I think, to what's going on now, because basically, um, Tamas talks about how we are embedded in these social networks. And humans have been forever. We've been embedded in social networks and, you know, in ancestral times – so like back when humans were mostly hunter-gatherers – the people that we knew, you know, we had larger families. So the people that we knew also knew each other really well. So we were in these networks sort of, you know, really high connectedness among all the individuals in them. And today we don't have that so much because we have smaller families. You know, people are friends with people from much further away. So the people that we know are much less likely to know other people that we know. Dave: 00:02:03 [Laughing] Right. It's really weird. And it's gotten all the weirder since coronavirus, like when we've been putting together, like our conference and things, it's like, we've worked with people that live a thousand miles away and that [Athena: Yeah ] we may never meet in real life. So- Athena: 00:02:18 Yeah. Well, and that's like the positive side of all of this too, right? It's like, yeah, well, you know, yeah, it's true that the people that you know are less likely to know each other, so you don't have this kind of like density of a social network anymore, but you also do have the opportunity to make connections with people who you, you know, might not otherwise, like they might not be part of your friend group. They might not naturally be someone who fits in with your family and your friends. So, you know, so to me, I see like that as a really positive side of the way that our social networks are, even if there are some kind of challenges that are associated with that too. Dave: 00:02:57 Cool. So tell me a bit about who we're talking to today. Athena: 00:03:02 Yes. So we are talking to Tamas David-Barrett. He teaches economics at Oxford in the UK, and, uh, he also has affiliations in Finland and Chile and, uh, he studies lots of, sort of diverse, interdisciplinary issues having to do with sociality and cooperation and economics. And we have a really fun conversation in this episode. I mean, we talk about everything from like, you know, computational models of social networks to him, you know, dressing up in a Toga at Burning Man. So- Dave: 00:03:38 [Laughing] All right. So what, what do you think was the most surprising thing that, uh, you guys discussed during this episode? Athena: 00:03:44 So, yeah, so for me, like really the heart of this episode is just how many things follow from the fact that right now our family sizes are smaller than they were at ancestral times. And then it's like, you know, when you actually think through like what that means for our social networks, that's the part that totally blew my mind. Dave: 00:04:06 Interesting. So, [Athena: Yeah] Cool. Well, I mean, yeah, it really does make sense. And also, like, I think about my family and my cousins and everything, they still live in Pennsylvania and I'm out here. And so it's like we never see each other. So, um, [Athena agrees] so you guys talk about sort of how this affects us and how this sort of... Athena: 00:04:24 Yup. And you know, how it affects the way that we even feel in our day-to-day lives because of, you know, the fact that, you know, not only like you mentioned, you know, like even the cousins that you do have, you don't live near enough to them that they're part of your immediate social network. So yeah. Life is very different for modern humans than it was for ancestral humans embedded in their, you know, familial networks. Dave: 00:04:49 Well, cool. Well, I can't wait to hear how this has screwed up our relationships [Both laugh] Athena: 00:04:57 Yeah. So let's hear from this week's fresh brain, Tamás David-Barrett. Intro: 00:05:04 Psychological by Lemi Athena: 00:05:41 Tamás, thank you so much for being here. Tamás: 00:05:44 Thank you very much for inviting me. Athena: 00:05:46 Would you introduce yourself in your own words? Tamás: 00:05:50 So I'm Tamás David-Barrett, I'm a behavioral scientist. Um, I work on the evolutionary origins of human social behavior, in particular on the social network-forming behaviors [Athena: So-] in humans and sometimes other species. Athena: 00:06:12 So how we kind of create these relationships and maintain them, and then what the consequences are of that? Tamás: 00:06:18 Yes. So all humans live in a social [Athena agrees] and the social environment and and our environment, every time is structured by the social network we live in and when our predecessors or intellectual predecessors for the first time started to look at this, they draw these really cute and cool social network graphs. [Athena agrees] So everybody's a dot, and every relationship between people is a line and then started to describe how these networks grow. And we had a bunch of models of how we compute these in our brains- Athena: 00:07:10 And then there was all this like sort of pop stuff about like six degrees of separation [Tamás: Exactly, exactly] Is that true? Tamás: 00:07:16 Well, uh, it's depends on how you measure it, but, [Athena: Okay] Actually, it's interesting you mentioned that because, uh, we just very recently figured out that it might not be a general case for human societies. It's very much dependent on the local clustering coefficient, basically- Athena: 00:07:34 What does that mean when you say clustering coefficient? Tamás: 00:07:35 Basically how closely connected our social network is. So if we live in societies where our social connections are connected to, it are likely to be connected to each other. [Athena agrees] Then the degrees of separation in on 7.6 billion people is much higher than if this local connection connectedness goes down. [Athena: Hmm, so-] Because basically the point is that if you have three people and they are connected to each other, then, uh, uh, to get to the, and everybody has a limited number of connections to get to the 7.6 billions, um, you will have, you will need to have much more steps. [Athena: Right] Whereas actually, if they are sort of lined up in a line, then very quickly, you will get to everybody. So- Athena: 00:08:23 So, If you're just in a group where everybody knows each other and they don't really branch out much [Tamás: Yes] basically then it's going to take way more degrees of separation [Tamás: Yes] to be able to play around with this. Tamás: 00:08:33 Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, so yes, that's what I do. And so what I like to add to this, which is maybe interesting is that when we look at these social nets, these black graphs, yeah. Uh, we always assume that an edge is an edge- Athena: 00:08:51 Like a connection, all the connections are the same- Tamás: 00:08:56 Exactly, and maybe it will, it's going to vary. The edges will vary in their weight or how intensive, how strong the connections are. Maybe they are going to be varying in the direction. So somebody is more linked to the other than the other one, the vice versa. [Athena agrees] But we always assumed maybe because these came from physical networks, that an edge is an edge, which is, if you think about it, is complete bollocks, because we have kin relationships with our relatives, uh, which will have a completely different logic to it, evolutionary origin and logic to it as romantic relationship, our relationship with our loves. And again, they were completely different logic to them as our relationship with our friends. So it turns out that if you take those accounts, you have a bunch of consequences for the structure of the society. Athena: 00:09:46 Mhm, Well, it sounds like these connections that, you know, these links between people are not, it's not just that they differ quantitatively. Like some are more intense than some are less [Tamás agrees], but they differ qualitatively. There's something different about the nature of these connections. Tamás: 00:10:05 Yes, yes. Our friends, we are, we are not in love with our friends. Uh, well, we are in love in love as we are with a friend, but we are not in a romantic love with our friends [Athena: Yeah], uh, for instance, so that the logic of romantic love will be true for a romantic relationship. It will not be, it is not going to be true for friendship. Similarly, there are logic of with our brother or sister [Athena agrees] or sibling is going to be different than with our love and with a friend. And so that will have a much of consequence. Athena: 00:10:37 Right, right. And so then given the way that we're embedded in these social networks, that makes a difference for our behavior for the way that we're embedded in society and has all sorts of effects on us. So sort of starts to connect them to the idea for this podcast of being zombified by things, right? [Tamás agrees] So things that are influencing us that we might not necessarily fully recognize are, are influencing us, um, and things that are affecting society that might be a little bit hidden from our view. Tamás: 00:11:14 So do you mean that we are not entirely aware how our behavior is shaped? Sometimes we just feel a behavior. [Athena confirms] We just feel what it's like to be hugged by a friend, as opposed to hugged by a love, as opposed to hugged by a brother. [Athena agrees] And we are going to, we will feel it that it's different, but we are not going to be thinking about this. Athena: 00:11:41 Well, yeah. And we certainly aren't necessarily going to be aware of how these different kinds of relationships and the networks that are being formed by just our everyday behavior [Tamás agrees] are affecting these broader things that are going on. [Tamás: Yes.] Like, you know, before we started the recording, we're talking a little bit about the demographics, right. [Tamás Yes.]And how there's all these demographic changes that are happening [Tamás: Yes.] as a result of the changes in these kinds of networks. So, I mean, we don't have to get into all of that all at once now, but, um, [Tamás: It's everything at once] Yeah, that's right. Everything at once, now! [Both laugh] um, but I think that this, you know, there's sort of this, um, this influence of these, these networks that most of us as we're going through our day-to-day lives, we're not thinking about how, the way we're embedded in these networks is affecting our behavior [Tamás: Yes] or affecting society at large. Tamás: 00:12:37 Yes. Especially, it's interesting because we are sitting in central London [Athena: Yeah] and here, uh, life is very different from the countryside. I, I came in from a little village next to Oxford and there are two immediate, three immediate gigantic differences. One is that a little village in Oxfordshire is fertility, the number of children per woman, is still higher than it looks than in central London. Uh- Athena: 00:13:07 What, what's the average? Tamás: 00:13:09 So many people, it's a very small village, but many people have three kids. We have two kids. [Athena: Okay]. Uh, whereas here it's under two [Athena agrees]. In fact, I bet that in this part of London, maybe it's even one, [Athena: It's probably a dog] It might, might be a dog, yes. [Athena laughs] It's funny because sometimes know, sometimes we should really count dogs as, as children. [Athena laughs] I mean, via our species being coded by another species in the dogs as if I, I haven't seen any data on this, but I bet that that people who, families who have dogs, they are less likely to have, to choose to have another child. And in that case, basically the dogs just simply to pushed out a future child. Yeah. [Athena laughs] So classic classic cocoon- Athena: 00:13:58 Well, our first, very first episode [Tamás: Uh huh] about the puppypocalypse [Tamás: Okay, well what's about this?] Dogs, um, zombified our parental investment systems among other things. [Laughst] Tamás: 00:14:08 But could you see data on this? Athena: 00:14:10 Um, we, we talked about the evolution of dogs [Tamás agrees] and how they kind of evolve to be [Tamás agrees] huge in order to [Tamás agrees] be able to manipulate us and that, um, they actually have oxytocin systems [Tamás: Yeah] that are, you know, function the same as human oxytocin systems. [Tamás agrees intermittently] So they probably really do love us. [Tamás: Well, yeah, yeah] But I, but I don't know about the data. [Tamás: Yeah]I don't think we, you know, it was a sort of, you know, uh, a bit of a speculative discussion about whether the, you know, people were not having more kids because they were having dogs. I, I don't know that anybody's done a study on it. Tamás: 00:14:45 So I th-, I know that maybe the Budapest dog department is sort of the department. [Athena: Yeah?] They might have data on this. We should ask. [Athena: We should] We should ask that [Athena laughs], yeah, so because it was so cool, yeah [Athena: Yeah] because they love us. Okay. So what does it mean? [Both laugh] What we're We're gonna then go back. What does life mean? [Both laugh] Athena: 00:15:00 Yeah. So we were talking about the, you're saying you came from Oxfordshire. Tamás: 00:15:11 Yes. Yes. So, so here in an urban space, we, even, if the relatives were around, we will be, there will be many other people in between us. The fatality rate is lower, uh, and the migration rate is much higher than in a small village in Oxford. [Athena agrees] So what you have is that you do not have the traditional societies kin network to rely on, and that will have a bunch of consequences. One of the consequences is that kin networks have a higher local density, which means very simply [Athena: What does that mean?] That, that your social connections [Athena agrees] are connected to each other. If you have two siblings, Jack and Peter, um, and they are your, your brothers, then by definition, they are going to be siblings with each other. [Athena agrees intermittently] And these relationships are going to be stable. [Athena agrees] If you then have two other friends who are not John and Julian, uh, they are friends. They are less likely to be friends with each other, than a hundred percent probability. And these links are going to be less stable than with siblings. [Athena agrees] So suddenly even if you have the same number of social connections, the local interconnectedness of the network is going to be different. [Athena: I see] And that is going to have a bunch of consequences, because it seems that our species hates to be in a low connectivity, connectivity environments. [Athena: Really?] It's very simple. Why, [Athena: Yeah] because then you have a high clustering coefficient. So they are very connected, the ranking. [Athena: Yeah] Then you can rely on the traditional network reputation to enforce non-following. Athena: 00:16:57 So if someone is not doing what they should, then [Tamás: We do, yes] The consequence, they have consequences with everybody. Tamás: 00:17:04 Because everybody will learn that, you know, Jill, uh, you know, she was, she was not doing the thing that our society wants. [Athena agrees] I'm from Hungary, and in Hungary there's a wonderful saying for this: don't do that, darling, because you're going there– the village is going to take you on its tongue, [Athena: ahhh] It's gorgeously representing! Athena: 00:17:25 How is it in Hungarian? Tamás: 00:17:27 Uh, uh, [Tamás: speaks Hungarian] [Athena: Sounds nice] it's going to is going to take, take on its mouth. Yeah. Um, so, so it's, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful way of saying that actually norms are going to be, uh, enforced [Athena agrees] by the very simple mechan- mechanism, of network reputation spreading. [Athena agrees] Now that relies on your network being connected. If you are going to be, uh, noncooperative with Jack and Jack is not connected to Julian, then Julian will never learn that you were not cooperative with Jack. And hence you the cost of, of, of non cooperation of cheating behavior or known no non norm, not following [Athena: Yeah] was that. So we don't like to be in these environments because then we can't trust our social connections. [Athena: Yeah.] So we have a bunch of consequences in urban migratory, Norfolk in spaces. People feel lonely, people feel depressed, suicide rates go through the roof. Uh, and then suddenly we need, we have a different, we want to recreate these highly clustered societies. So we come up with ideas here, actually in Central London was one of the most ingenious ideas. I don't know. Maybe I'll always come up. This is, this institution's always come up. [Athena: Yeah] Just a generation after the fertility started to fall in the upper middle class, in England, an institution emerged, uh, the gentleman's club, [Athena: Huh] which was just, just simply, uh, provided a space in which if you belong to the space, you would know that others will belong to that are highly likely to be connected to each other. And it had suddenly there was an institution which increased the interconnectedness among your friends. [Athena agrees] A lot of the times what we are doing- Athena: 00:19:29 Now in the U.S. Of course, gentleman's club means something completely different. [Tamás: What does it mean?] It's a strip club? Tamás: 00:19:36 Ah! Is there, is there any kind of social, social interaction in the strip club among the men? I presume only men go to the strip club. I never been so shameful and embarrassed. [Both laugh] I should have a field trip. What is the strip club like? Athena: 00:19:52 Um, well, so I, I went to a few in Portland, um, and you know, it, it's basically women, you know, dancing to music while they're taking off their clothes and men, you know, and, you know, usually a few women are there too, [Tamás: As their clients] um, yeah. Or they're there with, you know, [Tamás: As hostesses?] Uh, um, or they come on a date there or something, I don't think that happens very often,[Tamás: Strip club date? Athena laughs.] But at least in, in Portland that would happen. [Tamás laughs] Um, and, I mean [Tamás: Sex positive approach to this future relationship. Athena laughs], but, uh, you know, I mean, I think they differ a lot, like some, some seem like they're, you know, sort of respectful spaces and others don't, and it's, uh, it really depends on how it's run who, and who's there, but- Tamás: 00:20:48 Is there any interaction among the, the clients? Athena: 00:20:51 Um, I think sometimes people will go there, you know, with friends. So like, [Tamás: So, like, to talk.] yeah. So when I was there, it was, you know, with a group of people, um, and, you know, curiosity more than anything else, right. [Tamás: Right] But, um, yeah- Tamás: 00:21:06 It serves a different function than the London gentleman's club, I think. Athena: 00:21:10 Yes, it's an entirely different function. [Both laugh] But it was probably brilliant that they, you know, took the, you know, phrase gentleman's club. [Tamás: I see it was a marketing ploy. Both laugh] I don't know. I'm just speculating. But anyway, so you're saying that in London they've fit there- Tamás: 00:21:26 They've had this for a while. [Athena: Yeah, yeah.] And then, but then, then there are a bunch of things that we do today in which we are increasing the, the clustering coefficient interconnectedness among our friends. So one way is the, is a dinner party. So I feel that [Athena agrees] tonight, um, I'm having a dinner party tonight, uh, and there is this other friend of mine, Kate, [Athena agrees] we'd like to come over, you guys are going to get on like a house on fire. Athena: 00:21:53 That sounds great. But I, I'm pretty sure that this isn't actually true. Are you having a dinner party tonight? Tamás: 00:21:58 No, no. We're going out for dinner. [Athena: That's what I thought, yes] [Both laugh] No, um, it is an example, it is an example. It's an example because this this honest dinner. I put in a very honest voice. So that [Athena: Yeah, it was so honest] because this is a line that people give each other all the time. And of course, we're not putting this on us worse. I'm going to say, please come over tonight. Because, because, uh, uh Athena: 00:22:24 I want to increase the clustering, coefficient of my network, Tamás: 00:22:26 I want to increase my cluster. In fact, I'm asking you to drop some, both of you to drop somebody else [Athena agrees] so that my clustering coefficient goes up. [Athena agrees] So we are engaging in this behavior all the time [Athena agrees] that, uh, we check, this is one of the pieces of research that I've done for years. I've got the data and I haven't published yet, but I would just study it, you know, out in the world [Athena agrees] that actually, it seems that every, in every culture we look, and we looked in seven different cultures, people when they choose a long-term relationship, but not when there are short-term relationships that take into account as matrix factor, whether the two kin groups are going to be, uh, complimentary with each other. Athena: 00:23:10 And complimentary, in what sense? Tamás: 00:23:12 Whether you are going to, they're going to get along with each other, [Athena: Oh, yeah yeah] whether these affinal kinships are going to work and in that framing, you could think of a wedding as, rather than a celebration and a party. You could sit and think about wedding as a very cheap way of creating operationally, operationalizing the future future, affinal kin bonds. You basically put them all together. You give them booze, you give them food, everybody, does this and- Athena: 00:23:40 So a party is a way to increase your clustering coefficient. Tamás: 00:23:44 Yes, yes exactly. With a constant coefficient in the the near kinship, or in these days increasingly the close friends. [Athena: Yeah] And you merge them together. It's like, okay, great. And we are going to have a highly clustered group, a social group, around us. Athena: 00:24:01 Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the thing that you were saying about, you know, why we want this clustering coefficient to be high so that, [Tamás agrees] you know, the reputation can have this effect [Tamás agrees] so that, you know, people are more likely to cooperate. [Tamás agrees] Um, I mean, this is like, uh, you know, one of the positive sides of zombification is that sometimes, you know, being influenced by others can increase cooperation. [Tamás agrees] Right? And so in a way it's like, we want to be in a network where, you know, we're zombified and everyone else is, you know, zombified by having that closer interconnection. So that cooperation is more likely. Tamás: 00:24:43 It's very interesting the the way you put the zombification as if you, you were arguing that it is, we are just carriers of ideas. It goes back to almost the meme idea. [Athena agrees] That almost is that where that we get with captured by these institutions, [Athena: Yeah] we have captured by these, these norms and these ideas. [Athena: Yeah] And then they together are going to fully form the space we can be in. [Athena: Yeah.] Is that what you- Athena: 00:25:13 That's part of it. [Tamás agrees] And also just, you know, it, it may very well be that our brains are set up to, you know, be more influenced by others [Tamás: Yes] in situations where the clustering, coefficient and network is higher. Right. When you know, all of the people who know you, they also know each other, [Tamás: Yeah] probably there should be, you know, th th the, our brain should be set up to [Tamás agrees] then, you know, maybe be more conformist or to, you know, follow the norms more or- Tamás: 00:25:45 Very interesting. You say this, um, there is a particular period period in our life when the clustering coefficients are particularly low. So the interconnectedness is particularly low. Think of the number of connections you have and the interconnectedness to the clustering coefficient [Athena: Okay] during a life course. [Athena: Alright] So you're born to your mom who was connected, maybe your grandma. [Athena agrees] So- Athena: 00:26:11 But a lot of your connections are going through your inner family. Tamás: 00:26:15 Yeah, yes. [Athena: Yeah] So two in that initial degree, number of questions to a full triangle, a hundred percent accustomed coefficient, and you gradually go in your family. So a number of connections go up, but they will be connected to each other. So the accustomed coefficient stays a hundred percent. [Athena agrees intermittently] And then the gradually you go into our other kids, and there's a, maybe suddenly the clustering coefficient drops a little bit, and then you leave your childhood and juvenile. And they're suddenly, suddenly, [Athena: dispersal] [Both laugh] suddenly before even dispersal, suddenly you go through puberty [Athena agrees intermittently] and then a large majority of the society is suddenly interested in the other sex than they have, and then they say, gee, I need to make more connections. Hello. But now of course, that means that the person- Athena: 00:27:07 And if you're interested in the same sex, you still wanna expand your network- Tamás: 00:27:10 Exactly, exactly. And then suddenly the clustering coefficient collapse. And then even if you're in, it shouldn't make the same sense. You actually probably need to go even further because there might not be enough people around. Yeah. [Athena: Yeah] So suddenly your clust, your degree goes up, your number of connections goes up, but the clustering coefficient, the interconnectedness, goes down. And then for a few years, until you catch up and you learn how to manage this, your, you have this low clustering coefficient. And interestingly enough, that's exactly the age where we are desperate to fit in. [Athena: That's interesting] We are desperate to be not standing out, to be exactly like everybody else wear the right kind of shoes, you know, just, I've got two of these, two kids exactly that age. [Athena agrees intermittently] And, you know, I, I observe this behavior every day that they just, um, they, they, they, their, the individualism is, is suppressed and they just want to fit in. Athena: 00:28:10 And it might not be so much that it's because they're in a network that's so connected, but it's because they're trying to build one. Tamás: 00:28:18 Build one, build one. And then when they start building it, the clustering coefficient, the interconnectedness goes down. Athena: 00:28:24 Yeah, Yeah, interesting. Well, and it also strikes me, you know, now we're kind of getting into this interesting territory of, you know, like, yes, there are benefits to having a high clustering coefficient, but there are also really important benefits from not just sort of staying totally local. Right. You can meet people who might be mates. [Tamás agrees intermittently] Um, you can learn things from people who don't know all the same things that, you know, um, and you know, ultimately if you want to understand the world, you don't want to just be interacting with brains who have access to all the same information. Tamás: 00:29:00 Yes, Yes. You want, you want to explore, [Athena: Yeah] and then there's going to be tricky, whether you are, will be able to do that. There is this wonderful result, um, uh, Geoffrey West's result that higher density, city, urban spaces have a higher rate of innovation. [Athena: Yeah] Yeah. So, and I wonder whether it's exactly the mechanism that you just described here. So we are going to have the two sides against each other, and I presume some people will just like to be in the same little group they're [Athena: Comfortable] they're comfortable. Athena: 00:29:34 They know the norms, this is just how they do it. Tamás: 00:29:36 And I think right now in this room, that might be two [Both laugh] who just want to go out and try everything. And then of course, sometimes we just sit there, lonely, [Tamás moans; Athena laughs] look at this. It didn't work this time. [Athena laughs] Nobody likes you apart from the 2000 friends we have![Both laugh] So, yes. Athena: 00:29:58 Yeah. So there are all of these, there are two sides to this [Tamás: Yes], right. And then having a high clustering coefficient can be good for certain kinds of things and for certain kinds of relationships, but maybe the ideal, I mean, not that we have to say, Oh, this is the ideal, but it seems like it could be good to have, uh, a local cluster. Um, but then also to have some longer distance connections. Right.? Tamás: 00:30:28 I see. So you say that this structure of microfoundations theory should also provide sort of a behavioral guidelines of how to, [Athena laughs] how to how to build kind of, it's a great question. Well, I haven't thought of it, it's a great question. What can we somehow create, have a guideline [Athena laughs and agrees] that, to have a highly connected part of our network, [Athena: Yeah] where we can always run back to it [Athena: Yeah] and then, and then have a, a other parts where we allow ourselves almost a designed core. I'm not, I'm trying not to use the word core because maybe you can have several of these [Athena agrees] highly connected networks [Athena: Right] , but maybe, maybe always have a, have a fallback network [Athena agrees], which used to be the family, but the family is not falling apart. And there are sorts more that you can't really do that [Athena agrees]. So you need to have something as a club [Athena agrees] , maybe- Athena: 00:31:20 For some people it's their employers, you know, if their workplaces. [Tamás: Right] And, and that seems like that's kind of becoming a, a model you see, more and more where, you know, the workplace is like, um, you know, like Google and Facebook, right. But it's like, they feed you, house you, [Tamás: Yeah] if you need a counselor, you can go there and, you know, everything is there. And- Tamás: 00:31:44 Do you think when this happens, these companies, zombify these employees by capturing them? [Athtena agrees] Because if you create a space in which a community emerges [Athena: Yeah], you know, in a corporation, which is in many ways a space of exchange. [Athena: Yeah, yeah] It's a tricky, tricky thing. And if, if the fallback is there, they really have no formal backup. If they have a conflict with you, [Athena: That's interesting] as a corporation. So almost it's almost a capture, [Athena agrees] capture a behavior or [Athena agrees] zombie [Athena agrees] capture. Athena: 00:32:24 And I mean, it's sort of doing it with positive incentives in a way, rather than negative ones. Right. But I often [Tamás: Right] think about [Tamás: Right, right] zombification is like coercive, [Tamás: Right, yes] but it can also just be, well, you know, there's free food, so why would you go home at seven instead of just eating here? [Tamás agrees] And you know, all of these other surfaces are here and you could take a nap over there, you know? And so if you're providing those things and making it comfortable for people then- Tamás: 00:32:51 So maybe it's not a problem. Yeah. So I'm not sure we've because we announced some sort of almost seeing that this shouldn't happen. Maybe I, [Athena agrees] I'm not sure, like, you know, me, people, people live, they like communities. And then after a while they die. Yeah. [Athena laughs] So, [Athena: Yeah] uh, well, who are we to say [Athena: Yeah] that, uh, and in fact, if you create a stable community, part of our corporation, maybe, maybe the only problem is if it gets captured in a way that, that people are gonna abuse because of that. Athena: 00:33:25 Yeah, and it ends up becoming kind of coercive, yeah. Tamás: 00:33:26 If somehow that's a way, of coercion [Athena: Yeah] It has become a way of manipulation, right. Then it's a problem. Athena: 00:33:33 But if it's just creating a community and then people's workplaces a place [Tamás: Yeah] where they feel comfortable and they're taken care of, then that's probably good. Tamás: 00:33:42 Does anybody think about this in these terms. [Athena wonders] I know that people sometimes think of management. People sometimes think about what happens when all of these goodies are being provided. Then I've never seen anybody actually ask, maybe there's somebody out there, [Athena agrees] it'd be interesting. Athena: 00:34:00 Yeah. Well, throwing all these parties, right. [Tamás: Yeah] Lower the clustering coefficient [Tamás: Yes, yes], or you raise it. Sorry. You raise the clustering coefficient, the party. So, yeah. Tamás: 00:34:11 And then recreate this long-term bonds. [Athena: Yeah] It's very interesting because I wonder whether a lot of the, a lot of the corporations that have unique culture, actually those, the uniqueness of that culture comes on the back of highly, highly dense core. [Athena agrees intermittently] When, when that course of maintains on that core, the culture can [Athena: Yeah] emerge and then becomes really strong. So when somebody else comes in [Athena agrees], because yeah, humans [Athena: Yeah], we had great apes who will pick up these cultural norms right away [Athena: Yeah]. Bang, it is the same culture when it happens. Culture can last longer than in these corporations or these institutions [Athena: Yeah] then, then uh, then in, in not connect ones. Athena: 00:34:53 Well, then there's also this sort of innovation thing, which we started [Tamás: Yeah] talking about, which is, you know, well, how are they, um, you know, not just having a, uh, maybe a core where you have these sort of norms and culture, [Tamás: Right] But also this ability to take in new people and ideas and connect to them and, you know, not get too stuck. [Tamás: Right] And and that's a really important part of innovation, right. Is not, not getting too stuck, Tamás: 00:35:19 Right? So you need to move people around and you meet need to need to at least have some agents who are messengers and are moving in these different, uh, different clusters- Athena: 00:35:29 Or maybe have some mechanisms for new ideas, you know, a culture where new things can transmit to as opposed to just a culture where things stagnate [Tamás agrees] and the norms stay. And you know, that, that sort of ability. Tamás: 00:35:47 And we see that in our field, in our own institutions where it does this interdisciplinarity, which is essentially people going into each other's methods and [Athena: Yeah] language and grant rules say, okay, give me your grant rules, give me your theories [Athena laughs]. And then we're going to, and then we can see how many times it creates this new [Athena: Yeah] waves of innovation [Athena agrees], of scientific understanding of whatever [Athena: Yeah] areas. Athena: 00:36:11 But there, there is this tension often, right? [Tamás: Yes] So within the disciplines, you have this highly connected network with norms, you know, all, and you do it this way, and this is the process. [Tamás: Yes] And these are the people who have to, who it has to be okay with [Tamás: Yes] for you to be able to say that. Tamás: 00:36:30 Yes. So, I'm originally trained as an economist and I still teach economics. So I sometimes go to these biology and economics conferences and workshops, and almost a hundred percent of the economists when they go up and, and give a talk at a biology and economics workshop or evolution economics workshop, will start the talk with the following words: We in economics. [Athena: Really?] Yeah. It's super interesting. Basically, here's my stamp. I will not let go of the flag. [Both laugh] I will not let go of the flag. And you know, also predicts how far the conversation is going to get. [Athena; Yeah] Learn our very clever ways. Athena: 00:37:14 Yeah. So in, in academia, do you think that you do have the sort of, I mean, we talked about, you know, when you're born, right, your clustering, coefficient is first, [Tamás agrees] you know, uh, very high and then it becomes, you know, smaller. [Tamás agrees] What's the, um, what's the life course of a clustering coefficient for someone who enters, you know, [Tamás: That's a great question.] maybe become a PhD student and then they, you know, progress through and then maybe, you know, they eventually become a professor emeritus or something. Tamás: 00:37:46 That's a really interesting question because when you come in [Athena: Yeah] you are, you are exposed to a lot of ideas, [Athena agrees] but your network is sort of the extremism. Athena: 00:37:56 Yeah. Tamás: 00:37:56 Then you maybe- Athena: 00:37:56 It's like when you're born, [Tamás: Yeah, yeah, yes. You're a master's student, an undergraduate, a master's. Yeah, yeah] It's just your mom and your grandma, your siblings and dad. Yeah. Tamás: 00:38:02 And then you become a PhD student, you become a member of a, of a lab and then suddenly all the truths are there. [Both laugh] Yeah. Don't look anywhere else. I, I'm having several different, uh, uh, positions in the world. And so I, move among different research groups. Athena: 00:38:23 Yeah, so tell us, where are you and how does this- Tamás: 00:38:26 I'm an Oxford and in Santiago and a little bit in Helsinki. And there's very recently, I was also in Germany and, you know, I have other other collaborations. So what I want to say is that, what's interesting is that even if we are thinking about the same question, the assumptions are different. [Athena agrees] So for instance, if you go, so some of the work, some of the network work is about inequality and the emergence of stratified societies. So if you are asking this question in Helsinki [Athena: Yeah] uh, which is part of the Finnish society in which people believe, it seems very widely that the society has a natural state and equality is, is the natural state. So what if if it's unequal, it's going to revert back to equality. [Athena: Hm] So asking a question about certification or presenting, even just a model and seeing what the, what the questions are, is completely different than going to Santiago Chile, which is one of the most unequal societies among the Western world, [Athena agrees] among the developed world, uh, where people, it seems from the bottom to the top, seem to believe that inequality is the natural, that there's is a natural state. So that they, they agree there's a natural state. [Both laugh] But inequality is the natural state. So if a society is a equal, it is going to revert back to inequality. [Athena: Interesting.] So completely different underlying assumptions [Athena agrees] about, about essentially the same set of models. [Athena: Yeah.] So we end up in these labs, in these, in our societies and also within our labs that the grand truths emerge. Did you have such a grand truth when you were a PhD student? What was, what was, did you have a ground truth that now you think, Oh, that was silly. Athena: 00:40:14 So the, the lab that I did my PhD in was very cynical about human nature,. Tamás: 00:40:20 In what sense? Athena: 00:40:20 Um, that, you know, really anything and everything that humans do is self-serving. [Tamás agrees] And that it was very hard for me to kind of, I mean, I, you know, I'd read Dawkins's Selfish Gene and I, you know, I was an evolutionary biologist and, you know, was interested in evolution of cooperation. I'd, you know, studied cheating. I'd done models of how cheating evolved. [Tamás: Right, right.] So, you know, I knew all of that, but to me, it just didn't seem like, you know, the right assumption at baseline is that everything that humans do is self-serving, it just didn't seem right to me. And so that was, that was a little, a little difficult to be in that. And and actually, I mean, to be perfectly honest, um, I had like existential angst [Tamás: Oh, wow!] throughout graduate school because I was kind of, I mean, it, it just didn't feel right to me, [Tamás agrees] but that was kind of the paradigm was having to work within and, you know, and, and, and so, um, and it took me a little while after to just realize that, okay, I don't have to, [Tamás agrees] I don't have to, you know, say ultimately everything comes down to self-serving stuff, you know, humans actually, we, we've evolved to, you know, be generous and to take care of others. And, you know, yes, you can say that, uh, some of that is because of, you know, genetic relatedness [Tamás agrees] and some is because you're expecting to get something back. [Tamás agrees] Um, but not always. And, you know, so, so anyway, that was a long digression. Tamás: 00:42:02 No, that's that's, that's that's. And actually that's really interesting because of course you can, in, in, in our field, we tell evolutionary stories, uh, about where a certain set of behavior or phenomena come from. [Athena: Yeah] But, and of course that, that will be in some definition, self serving, [Athena agrees] but, you know, but one of them is telling narratives, telling stories. Yeah? I mean, we evolve the ability to tell stories. [Athena agrees] We evolve the ability to make music. [Athena: Yeah] And I mean, so if you go to listen to Bach or, you know, you go to to the ballet or, you know, [Athena agrees] you go to the street corner and you see a performance and, [Athena agrees] and it touches your heart. I mean, that's, of course that has a foundation, an evolutionary foundation, but now I've gone into this incredibly complex cultural, [Athena: Yeah] uh, uh, build up [Athena: Right] in which we sort of lose. I'm not sure if it's makes it makes sense to ask the self-serving question on that level. Athena: 00:43:10 Yeah. Well, and I think also, you know, ultimately evolution doesn't make for an emotional experience and a subjective experience of, [Tamás: Right] you know, doing things that are just, you know, it it doesn't, it doesn't make it satisfying and reinforcing to live a self-serving life [Tamás: Right] because we're fundamentally so social [Tamás: Yeah] that, you know, if you don't have those relationships [Tamás: Yes] that you can depend on, if you don't have, [Tamás: Yeah] you know, people who you trust [Tamás: Yeah] and who trust you were, you know, if all you have is relationships that are instrumental, where people are associating with you, because you provide them benefits and vice versa, and you both know that. And that's, that's all that your life is based on. You're you're fucking miserable.[Tamás: Yeah] That's not a good existence- Tamás: 00:44:00 Yeah, it's, it's not. [Athena laughs] At all. Athena: 00:44:02 Yeah. And I don't think our psychology is, you know, designed- Tamás: 00:44:06 Is designed for that, evolved for that. Yes, exactly. Athena: 00:44:09 Yeah, I mean, I think maybe we're designed to be able to take advantage of some of those you know opportunities for, oh I can help you with this, you can help me with this. We make that deal. We do that. And, you know, but, but that's different than saying that that's the fundamental way that our sociality works, [Tamás agrees] right? It's, you know- Tamás: 00:44:27 I would actually half disagree with your last sentence. [Athena: Please] But I was seeing that, that even the exchange is a culture that we learn. So we, [Athena agrees] we have, clearly we have the ability to learn these, [Athena: Yeah] but I'm not sure whether the exchange itself is, you know, this, this [Athena: Is a fundamental-] calculated exchange is itself is, is a fundamental thing. [Athena agrees] I mean, look at all those cultures that were there, uh, communal property is the name of the game, you know, for exchange, you need some kind of individual property. [Athena: Yeah] And if you don't have that, then everything is owned by the community. [Athena agrees] It sort of, doesn't make that much [Athena: Yeah] sense anymore. Athena: 00:45:08 Yeah. I I think about the Maasai, you know, [Tamás agrees] we study them in the human generosity project [Tamás: Right] and they have, so they have herds [Tamás agrees] and those are private property in the sense that [Tamás agrees] families will have a herd. [Tamás agrees] And, um, then if somebody drops below the amount of cows that they need to support their family, they'll, they can ask for help. And they do, [Tamás: Right] they ask for help and someone who has enough, you know, if they're asked they'll help [Tamás agrees] and this is called osotua. [Tamás agrees] It's their need-based sharing. [Tamás agrees] Um, they also have a system called esile, which is a debt credit system. So they might ask, Hey, can I borrow three cows? 'Cause I want to have a party or I just want three more cows [Tamás agrees] or whatever. Um, and then, you know, I'll pay you back. [Tamás agrees] So they have these two systems and, you know, they they're sort of coexisting at the same time, but they have different different rules about, you know, how they work. Tamás: 00:46:05 Isn't that wonderful that, that, that tension between the individual interest and the behavior was your PhD groups existential angst. [Athena laughs] And then and then you set up the human generosity project. Beautiful. [Both laugh] In which you find the most high example, right. Gorgeous. [Athena: Yeah] So what happens next? So you've got a PhD and you and then you become a post-doc [Athena: Yeah] you go to conferences and you suddenly start having friends. [Athena: Yeah] Maybe that is the time when you start hitting the supervisor, just the way it was as a 16 year old starts hitting their parents. [Both laugh] And then and then +become you know you get under there on the letter, and then you gradually build your. . . And that is going to be--Isn't that interesting that that somebody said this, that, that you can be truly interdisciplinary only as a tenured professor, because you can't afford before that before should, I'm not sure if is true, because both of us have been interdisciplinary before. Uh, but I can see that it's easier to, to stay in the highly classified, local, local social network of, of, of brains, [Athena: Yeah] uh, before you allow yourself to, to, to, to, to, to branch out. [Athena: Yeah.] I wonder, what's your trick. I will, I, will, I have a trick. My only trick is I some somehow learned to allow myself to look stupid. [Athena: Oh yeah] It is really difficult. [Laughs] It's not difficult to me. Is that what you do as a, what do you have a trick? What's your interdisciplinary team trick when you enter a new field? Athena: 00:48:01 Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's similar. It's like, you know, if you're curious about something and you want to know, [Tamás: Yeah] then you follow that. [Tamás: Yeah] Right. And I think not being too self-conscious [Tamás:Yeah] of like, oh, is it a against the norms to ask this kind of question after this kind [Tamás: Yeah] of talk and you're just asking it. [Tamás: Yes] So [Tamás: Yes] yeah. [Tamás: And then-] I think it's similar Tamás: 00:48:23 But then some, some groups are really responding really badly to that- Athena: 00:48:27 Yeah. But then also just talking to people too. [Tamás: Yeah] Right. So I think, um, you know, in academia as with probably everywhere, people feel most comfortable to talk to the people who they've already talked to. [Tamás: Right] And I think, you know, pushing out of that to really, you know, have conversations with people who you don't know, um, and to be open to, you know, hearing things [Tamás: Yes] that might not be consistent with what you already think [Tamás: Yes] or what you've been told. [Tamás: Yeah] And yeah. Um, I know for me, it's like, I'm always intrigued when there are contradictory things, you know, when I hear something that is not what I think or what I've heard before, and I go towards that rather than, you know, trying to like, Oh, well, they, they don't th what they think must be wrong because it's not, [Tamás: Yes] you know [Tamás: Yes] what I was taught. So. Tamás: 00:49:18 It's, it's irresistible [Athena: Yeah] two truths at the same time. [Both laugh] It's like Why, why. And then- Athena: 00:49:26 And then, you know, trying to say, well, all right, if I can, I fully understand that position and fully understand this position to come up with something that maybe is drawing from both and is better, like how, you know, maybe you want to, you want to make a you know delicious soup, chicken soup. And so you look at two different recipes and then you decide what you're going [Tamás: Yeah] to make. I know you like to cook so. . Yeah. Tamás: 00:49:52 So, so do you have an example where, where you, you saw two truths separate from each other, and then you figured that a new framing in which they merged, or you managed to somehow resolve the tension. Athena: 00:50:06 Yeah. I mean, I think this whole question about helping based on need [Tamás agrees] versus, you know, I'm saying versus here, right. [Tamás: Right] Helping based on expecting something in return. [Tamás: Right] So, you know, th that was something that, you know, it seemed for a very long time, like, Oh, those are two different models [Tamás agrees] for how humans behave that are contradictory. Right. And like, they, you know, the argument, which one, right. Um, there's evidence for this there's evidence for that. Well, there's evidence that, that doesn't happen and that doesn't happen. And so, you know, if you're stuck in that binary, it has to be one or the other, then you're just in a loop where, [Tamás: Right] you know, I believe this and you believe that, and it's ideology. [Tamás: Right] Right. Um, but to say, okay, well, yeah, you know, there are these situations where people don't expect to get paid back. That's interesting. And then there's these situations where people do. That's interesting. So, well let's look a little bit more into, you know, well, in what situations are people expecting to get paid back, or what situations are they not, you know, and then, and then you start getting into the sort of, you know, more subtleties about maybe the flexibility of human nature in different circumstances. And, um, you know, just recently we had the chance to do a study where, um, this was actually in the desert Southwest in Arizona with ranchers who are still, um, they have cattle, they get on their horses that, you know, they're, I mean, they're still ranching. Um, and they often ask for help from neighbors for things, and they call this neighboring. And we, we gave them a list of all sorts of things that they might need help with. This was after doing a bunch of field work. [Tamás agrees] So we knew the kinds of things that, [Tamás: Right] you know, [Tamás: Right] were that they would ask for help with. Um, and we had them rate them on how predictable or unpredictable they were and on how, um, much they would expect to get repaid and what kind of repayment. And we found that, well can you guess which what the relationship is, if something is very unpredictable, a need that's unpredictable, like someone dies or gets ill- Tamás: 00:52:19 Yeah. So that's an, that's a need base or [Athena: Yeah] unpredictable was going to be a need base, [Athena: Yeah] that's the whole point. [Athena: Yeah, exactly, yeah] That's your discovery, yeah? [Athena: Yeah, yeah] That, that, that, that is the kind of insurance in a way [Athena: Yeah] the insurance system. [Athena: Yeah] Uh, did you look at how, if the, if the hormonal basis or the neuroendocrinological basis of, uh, of these behaviors different, so when you're engaging with someone in a credit base [Athena agrees] or an exchange base versus a need base, do people do the brains do different things? Athena: 00:52:52 Yeah. That'd be great to look at. We haven't looked at that, but I would, you know, speculate that. Yeah-[Both laugh] Tamás: 00:53:01 Yeah. Do one more. If you give need-based, [Athena: Yeah] so oxytocin is going to be okay. [Both agree and laugh] Cool. Very cool. Very cool. So I just, I discovered this whole thing that, that we need to, so I looked at unconditional giving, which is in a way a need based thing [Athena: Yeah] at Burning Man. [Athena: Yeah, tell, so] Should I say about that? Athena: 00:53:25 Well, yeah, and first of all, [Tamás: Yes] um, say a little bit about what Burning Man is [Tamás: Oh, what Burning Man is. Oh I see, oh I see.], just in case. Tamás: 00:53:30 I see. So, um, Burning Man is a festival, an art festival in the Nevada desert, uh, 85,000 people show up for about nine days. Uh, the, I don't know what ratio, but let's say half of them bring some kind of art project or participate in an art project. [Athena agrees] Uh, so art is a gift I'll give to the community and it somehow- Athena: 00:53:58 Well, and some of them also bring other things- Tamás: 00:53:59 And then you can bring other things, you can bring other. Athena: 00:54:03 They'll bring like food or beverages and and share those. [Tamás: Yeah] But everybody brings something right. Tamás: 00:54:08 Yes, yeah, yeah. Or, but, or, or the whole idea is giving. Uh, we were queuing and I was going in for my first Burning Man and we were queuing in the car and somebody knocked on the door. Two people came up very beautiful woman and a very beautiful man and then knocked on the door. And they said, they said, is there somebody who's here for the first time? And I said, well, I am. They said, come step out. And then they said, um, do you, do like panini? And I said, a little bit taken back because never nobody ever offered me panini like that. But I knew I was expecting that there are gifts here. So, [Athena: Yeah, so] I said and they said, I said, yes. So one stood in front of me. The other stood behind me. They hugged me, and pushed me through. I said, human panini. [Athena laughs] And then he's like, wow, that was a gift. [Athena: Yeah] And then they thought about it. And they just were walking up in this boring queue and they just, they just brought a little bit of sunshine. Athena: 00:55:11 Yeah. As everyone was just waiting in the car, right? Tamás: 00:55:18 Everyone-Yeah, it's so boring. So the whole thing is like that. And I, uh, Marian Goodell who's the who's the CEO of the organizing organization is a friend of mine. And she invited many times before. She might've been many times before. And she said, look, you must come and see this because this is human nature at play. And I was like, you know, Oh, you know, there's selection bias here-Yeah. Athena: 00:55:37 You're like I've never even been to a strip club. [Both laugh] Tamás: 00:55:42 I can tell you that you can go to Burning Man, and not be having because I've done it. Um, and anyway, so finally I had gone there and I realized that people give these really weird unconditional gifts and they are truly unconditional gifts. And they give it all the time that they use this nine days space and that space in the desert to give, give, give, give, give. And I kept seeing people shining when they give. [Athena agrees] And Wow, What is going on here? I mean, that shine, I mean, is that, what is it that must be some hormonal processes going on? [Athena laughs] How do you feel, and they said, I feel warm and fuzzy. Okay. [Both laugh] Okay, oxytocin is already up, you know like something is going on here. And then once I managed to give something, I brought some silly presents, but they were stupid and like pointless. And so I was in the, in, in, in the middle of the night, uh, two o'clock in the middle of the desert and there were these shiny object in the distance. So I cycled up to them and it was a lot, it's a four and a half meter, tall lotus forest, uh, builds from these electrical lamps. [Athena: Cool.] It was beautiful. And at the edge of the forest, do you mind if I tell, [Athena: Yes, please] uh, and, and the end of the edge of the forest, there was a couple of very good looking couple, uh, or sort of holding out their mobile phone to try to take a selfie. And I realized that that what they wanted is they wanted to have a selfie with that, with that Lotus at the edge [Athena: Yeah] at the edge with the darkness behind. [Athena: Yeah] So I just walk up there to, without saying a word, because this is a place space with which you can do this. You can do this. I just took this mobile phone and walked a little bit away to, so I can frame the whole thing. And I took a photo and there and there, so maybe they wanted to have a close up, so walk up and just framing their faces. And then the behavioral scientist kicked into me. [Athena: Yeah] They were having fake smiles. I didn't really pay attention to them. Yeah. [Athena: Yeah] I was just like, I was just going to, but it was not a Duchenne smile. [Athena laughs] And I thought, and I thought, okay I know how to do this [Athena agrees] without telling you, Which was not exactly ethically. Okay. But anyway- Athena: 00:58:03 But you weren't in your scientist- Tamás: 00:58:03 I wasn't in my scientist realm- Athena: 00:58:03 Despite the fact that the behavioral scientist in you kicked in [Athena laughs] Tamás: 00:58:11 I pushed, I pushed the I switched to video that their faces are framing this I switch video and knowing exactly there's going to be a smile now, a real natural smile. I said, are you guys in love? To which there was silence. Athena: 00:58:29 And you're like, oh shit. [Laughs] Tamás: 00:58:34 And there was just silence. And because I'm shameless, I kept holding the camera. And then at one point she looked up and looked up at him, but after like 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and she said, it's for him to say, [Athena agrees] to which he, without hesitation said, yes, we are. And so then, so then I asked for how long, and exactly at the same time, they said three months. [Athena agrees] So I stopped the video, gave the camera to them. And then they said in my, I have to add to this, that I was [Athena: Yeah] in, in that golden toga here [Both laugh]. Athena: 00:59:10 Because it's Burning Man. Tamás: 00:59:10 And, and nothing else. And I said to them, I am Zeus the God of Burning Man. [Athena laughs] And they walked away and they circled back to the old, to all my friends. And so I gave them a frame, like a nice photo with it, with the beautiful lotus and the dark background, a video when we used it for the first time, they said that they loved each other. [Athena: Yeah] And the story that this was the God of Burning Man got this, I was high, socially high on oxytocin so much. I'd gone to one of the dancing camp tents. [Athena: Yeah] And then danced for an hour and a half with my eyes closed. And that's just enjoying the social high. [Athena: Wow] It was a natural high. And I realized, this is why everybody's shining. [Athena agrees] Because if you give, if you're, if you're able to give, give something that's meaningful to somebody else, you bond with them, you know, I mean, I'm still in love with them, I don't even know their names [both laugh]. Athena: 01:00:11 But you don't even know their names! Tamás: 01:00:11 I don't even know their names. But it was so good. Athena: 01:00:12 Yeah. Tamás: 01:00:13 So, so of course, this is, this is at this point, the need-based and [Athena agrees] Burning Man, there's a saying the playa will provide, which is a bit of a supernatural narrative being brought into this space. [Athena laughs] It's not very interesting. Yeah. [Athena laughs] But also it's essentially, if you need something there is going to be a solution is [Athena agrees] essentially the ultimate need base... Have you ever thought about looking at Burning Man and the playa will provide as a need based? Athena: 01:00:40 Well, I think it would be amazing to study Burning Man and have a, you know, do some, some research there, but I've never been, so I don't even know anything other than what I have heard secondhand. So- Tamás: 01:00:54 Let's, let's, let's, let's go on a research trip. Let's do, [Athena laughs] let's collect all our friends who are behavioral scientists and do a a Burning Man. [Athena: That would be awesome.] That would be really cool. Athena: 01:01:04 Yeah. Yeah. Um, so returning back to the sort of social network [Tamás agrees] question and like how, how [Tamás agrees] it's influencing us when we kind of start, you know, coming to the end and wrapping up the podcast. I always like to ask about that [Both laugh and joke about forgetting the podcast] Yeah. We're recording a podcast right now by the way. [Tamás: Yeah, because having a conversation about this is so much fun, right, yeah.] Um, so when you have all these potential influences, [Tamás agrees] right. From the social network and, and you, you know, you can have a smaller network, you can have, um, you know, in that smaller network, maybe more social influence. Um, but you know, what happens if you sort of take the way that humans are influenced by our, by our social networks? And if you, you know, ramp that up so that it's, you know, you enhance that influence, um, you, you take it, you know, you, you exaggerate it. Um, are there, is, is there a zombie apocalypse of like, you know, too much zombification from social networks? Like what happens? You know, what would that world look like if we were so, you know, zombified by the social networks that we're in, Tamás: 01:02:30 So I guess this is how these crazy, uh, crazy drifts away to crazy reality can happen [Athena: Yeah, say more] When, when, so if, if there's, uh, a new truth that emerges and that new truth is, is constantly being signaled by all our social connections, [Athena agrees] then we automatically [Athena agrees] will sign up to those new truths that we have no choice. Uh- Athena: 01:03:01 So like a cult kind of situation almost. Tamás: 01:03:04 Yes. But the cult is almost the extreme version, but we, that can happen all the time. I've given an example. [Athena: Yeah] that I've observed of myself for the first time. Um, when I moved to my current college in Oxford, I moved from another college, which I didn't quite like the norms. Um, [Athena: What were the norms?] Uh, there there there were a different set of norms that come with a cost, [Athena, laughing: Okay, I, I see you don't want to talk about it, we don't have to talk about it] I mean was less trusting and less friendly and less kind. [Athena: Okay] Um, and, and then I moved to my current college nine years ago, and and then the scientist immediately immediately observed that this is almost like a family it's friendly, it's kind, it's trusting. Um, it's welcoming, it's integrating. And it took me three months to fully shed the previous college's norms, [Athena agrees] but then I shed shed it. Yeah. [Athena agrees] So I know that if I would go to different different place, I would have to, I would have to shed these to be untrusting [Athena laughs] and unfriendly again. And of course that was because I had these norms preset. But if you go to any space where you don't have these norms, because especially if they make you vulnerable at the beginning, [Athena: Um] then you will latch on the new norms immediately. [Athena agrees] Burning Man, again is a very interesting, uh, example [Athena: Okay] when after you arrive and, and the old timers will be walking around naked right away. [Athena agrees] And it takes two days. It took for me two days each time to sort of normalize that, but after two days, It's just another human being, it doesn't matter whether they're naked or not, [Athena: Yeah] uh, and a bunch of other norms around giving gifting, uh, inclusion that are different in these spaces, [Athena agrees] but they are. So I wonder if you could actually push this to the edge [Athena: Yeah] and you could push, you could create these norms that they just go crazy after which everybody says what happened here. [Athena laughs] So a lot of, I mean, the 20th century provided a bunch of these examples [Athena: Right] of the Nazis, the communists. Uh, a lot of religious sects have these, these neutrals where if you're in it, you just can't come out [Athena agrees] unless you can't come out, decide you can't decide [Athena agrees] to come out. If you somehow end up outside, then you have a new set of norms. Then I presume you look back and say, what happened to me there? [Athena: Yeah] Because I've got this really cool new set of norms. Athena: 01:05:42 Well, I mean, it's really interesting to think about those, you know, historical, you know, tragedies, and tragedies, isn't even a strong enough word for it, but [Tamás: Right] do you think of it in terms of this clustering coefficient [Tamás: Yes] thing, right? [Tamás: Yes] That like, you know, it, maybe it's not just about the persuasiveness of, you know, whoever is [Tamás agrees] organizing all of it, but it's about, you know, other ways of increasing that clustering coefficient so that all the voices around you are saying things and, and, and it might not even be, you know, the things that are being said might not map onto what's actually being done. Right? [Tamás: Yeah] But the story that's being told is very, you know, coherent and you're hearing it from everyone and everyone around you believes it. Tamás: 01:06:29 Yes. Yes. And you could actually tell stories, uh, that but they are, we have, I'm not even sure how to put the, these historical data in a, in a structure that we could actually probably do a proper test, but you could tell a story. I just use this word for now, [Athena: Yeah] yeah, that falling fertility in the 18th century, in France, might have, might have triggered a situation, which there was a space for, uh, uh, a kin language using [Athena agrees] a revolution and nationalism that the, the war, the first world war together with, with the epidemic afterwards called the population in which the net almost as a fertility had fallen down, [Athena: Mmm] uh, and that created a space for the kin language using communist ideology. The kin language using Nazi ideologies, uh, to emerge. So, uh, so maybe you could tell these stories, but of course I cannot test, although [Athena: Yeah] they're too appealing in that they might've worked. I, I don't know how to actually test. Athena: 01:07:47 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, just the idea that, you know, the, that your position in the network could influence your, you know, vulnerability to kin terminology, right? [Tamás: Right] So if you don't have a lot of close kin, [Tamás: Right], then maybe you are more vulnerable to that. [Tamás: Yes] That's that's testable. [Tamás: Yes] You could test that. Tamás: 01:08:09 We asked actually [Athena: Yeah] set it up with one of my students, we were setting up a similar, [Athena: Cool, yeah] we're trying to see to what extent the variation in kin terms affect trigger. It's a really weird thing, because if I say you, I feel that you that you are my sister it's, it's, it, uh, it might trigger a sibling like behavior. [Athena agrees] Uh, but, but of course-- Athena: 01:08:36 It does make me feel a little warm and fuzzy when you say that. Yeah. Tamás: 01:08:40 But it's like the classic cheap talk. Yeah. I just said like you are Athena: 01:08:45 But I know you really mean it, right? So- Tamás: 01:08:45 four words Tamás: 01:08:54 Of course, of course, but of course [Athena: I know what you mean] I know, yeah, but maybe if, um, if somebody else says it, who was obviously asking for something, [Athena agrees] uh, then maybe your alarms come up, [Athena agrees] so there's going to be a really complex behavior, but clearly it's hackable, yeah. [Athena: Yeah] If you feel warm and fuzzy now, and then you go into a community in which everyone says, Athena, sister, come and join us. [Athena: Yeah] We are here for you. Athena: 01:09:19 See, it just sounds like, it sounds creepy when you say it like that. [Both laugh] So, I'm already like, whoah, woah, woah- Tamás: 01:09:26 You know, partially, partially, partially. Well, partially because my, my, my singing teacher, she she taught me how, how to you know what when you warm up and you loosen the muscles. And and when you loosen the muscles you speak like this and and I realize why it's creepy when people speak like that. Because of course, when you just want to warm up, you want to relax the muscles. [Athena: Okay] So you're going to speak like this. But if you are, if you have really nasty, nasty intentions, [Athena: Yeah] you want to mask those. [Athena: Oh] So you were forcefully, forcefully, [Athena: Relaxed] uh uh relax, them hence it becomes this really creepy thing. Anyway just as a little aside. Isn't it interesting? [Laughs] Athena: 01:10:04 Yeah, yeah, if you leave I'm going to try to just, if I can talk weird like that, yeah, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. [Both laugh] Tamás: 01:10:13 And then everyone will know either you're creeping or you're warming up. [Both laugh] We'll both see it. Athena: 01:10:19 Yeah. That's really interesting, then. So if you are, if people are good at hearing [Tamás agrees] the creepiness, [Tamás: Right] then the absence of any signal is a sign that you're trying to hide something. Tamás: 01:10:33 Yes. Yes, exactly. [Athena: Yeah] So suddenly, suddenly bearded politicians are not bearded and don't have mustache unless they live in a dictatorship. Athena: 01:10:42 Really? Really? [laughing] Tamás: 01:10:49 If, yeah, if- Have you not noticed this? Dictators have bearded mustache. And oh when you elect them, I have to cut out that out the beard because you want to see the signals. Athena: 01:10:54 So then what's going on with the hipster beards, now? Tamás: 01:10:58 I don't know. [Athena laughs] I had a beard for two years and it was really weird when I was sad. People thought that I was angry. [Athena: Oh] and I and I cut it down. And everybody thinks I'm this huggable bear. [Both laugh] It's like there's no difference I'm the same guy under the beard. So anyway [Athena agrees] there's there's the same, same, [Athena agrees] same, there's research on this. Formidability versus, uh, trustworthiness [Athena agrees] with the different amounts of, [Athena agrees] of beard. This is why when you go to, okay, I'm going to say this quietly, because maybe some of our friends are going to listen to this. [Athena laughs] But you know, when you go to our conferences, [Athena agrees] it's better than in beard. [Athena agrees] And all these guys who read the research, because the research says that that if you have a rather very bushy beard, your formidability rating goes up and your trustworthiness goes down. [Athena agrees] And if you cut off your beard, we have a clean shaven face. You are formidable. Everything goes down, plus the formidability. And the trustworthiness goes up [Athena agrees] and then there's a golden point. So that 10 day stubble. [Athena laughs] So actually you walk into these spaces and then all these guys, with a 10 day stubble [Athena: Really?] will give you a hand [Both laugh]. [Athena: inaudible] They are doing zombie. They are just hacking their their their their psychology. [inaudible] Athena: 01:12:09 Maybe they were just zombified by like the one study that showed that! Tamás: 01:12:14 Yes, exactly Maybe somebody's laughing at the steps that they took [inaudible]. [Both laughing] Athena: 01:12:22 Yeah. So, so what, um, what can we do to keep ourselves from getting trapped in, you know, these like communities where there are ideas that can perpetuate themselves that might not really be good for us or good for society? Tamás: 01:12:41 Well... Athena: 01:12:43 Or or might just be [Tamás: Do we know what's not good for us?] Or, or, or we we could even just say, might, you know, in academia, be holding back scientific progress if we're stuck in. Yeah, you know. Tamás: 01:12:52 Yeah. So, so yeah, so branching out is, is the, is, is, is the way we need to do that. [Athena: So-] What alarms me a little bit is that, sorry, I was- Athena: 01:13:03 I was going to say so more brains. Tamás: 01:13:05 More brains. Yes- Athena: 01:13:06 Different brains. Not all brains are the same brains, yeah. Tamás: 01:13:07 Oh brains. Yes. Yes. Connect to . . . What alarms me a little bit that we have, I count up these five real problems, but definitely we are definitely in the middle of the six extinction wave of, in the history of life. [Athena agrees] And by any measure, it is at least three magnitudes faster than the next fastest. Athena: 01:13:30 Really? [Tamás: Yeah] Three orders of magnitude faster. [Tamás: Faster, much faster] So that a thous- no, a hundred Tamás: 01:13:37 It's not the scale of million years. Athena: 01:13:39 A hundred times faster. [Tamás: Huh?] Right, no. So a thousand times faster. Tamás: 01:13:45 It's a thousand, thousands. [Athena: Three years minus two-] It's not a scale of millions of years is the scales of hundreds and thousands. So, so that, so that means that, and we are not worried about it enough, you know, if, if any, any one of us here or listening to this did not spend this morning thinking about it, then that's a wasted morning [Athena agrees] because th the, the scale is, really almost too big to sync it. [Athena agrees] And so I, I sometimes wonder whether some of our, some of these, not some of these brains in academia are who would be the brains at this, some of the brains to think about this and find, [Athena: Yeah], find solutions are too much locked into these local intellectual dynamics. [Athtena: Interesting] And uh what do you think? Athena: 01:14:38 Yeah, no, I mean, a lot of what we're trying to do with the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting is say, "Hey, there's a lot of shit that's going on in the world [Tamás: Right] that's really weird. And things that we can't figure out by just staying in our disciplines." [Tamás: Right] And so if we're going to, you know, you know, figure out what is going on, let alone what we can do to improve the outcomes for the future. We have to bring brains together and we have to speak in language that other people from other disciplines can understand. [Tamás agrees] You know, if you're just stuck in your jargon, then that's a language that's only understood by everyone who's in that same local cluster as you. [Tamás: Yeah, yes] And so, you know, creating a a shared language and, you know, making it fun by talking about zombies in the apocalypse, it's kind of what we're trying to do. Yeah. Tamás: 01:15:33 It's perfect actually [Athena laughs]. I love it. Athena: 01:15:36 Yeah. Do you have other ideas or thoughts about like how to move in that, how we can move in that direction [Tamás: So-] of sharing brands? Tamás: 01:15:47 So I've got this little project, which might actually kick up. I've never, I haven't said it publicly, but maybe I don't mind if it's public. Um, um, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about kicking up my academic area [Athena agrees] or whatever, if it's needed, I don't know. And I'm thinking about sitting down and restructuring knowledge. So the current knowledge structuring, which is the disciplinary knowledge structure, so, okay. Let's start back here. So our industry right that's called an industry. [Athena: Academia, yeah] Academia is the most highly regulated creative industry that's out there. Athena: 01:16:23 It's a really interesting way of putting it. Tamás: 01:16:25 Yeah. And it's, it's, it's super creative. Yeah. We are about learning that how the world works, yeah? And for that, we are a bunch of super smart people are put together and then they think, think of how the world works. Excessively highly regulated. Yeah. And it's, the regulation is within this institutional structure that is organized by disciplines. [Athena agrees] That discipline actually comes from, as I learned from some of my colleagues from uh Napoleonic, France, where, Napoleon wanted to restructure, I'm repeating other people's things, [Athena: Yeah] Napoleon wanted to restructure, uh, knowledge, not based on theology, but based on areas. [Athena: Okay] So you came up with this idea and then he lost the bar. You know, he was [Athena agrees] a dictator and he was our student, uh, with them. Uh, [Athena laughs] but then, but then, uh, the Germans implemented this. So the first, uh, universities in department discipline based departmental structure emerged in Germany. [Athena agrees] And, and then that was the system that's built around some places like Oxford. Uh, are still having both systems. So we have the old essentially old theological colleges. [Athena: Really?] And the college system [Athena: Right] is essentially there [Athena: Yeah] it's coming from that and, uh, the departments, [Athena: Yeah] but most universities and the newer universities have only the departments. [Athena agrees] And we have, we have the funding coming in disciplines by the department. We have the journals, the language, the methods, the courses you take Athena: 01:18:09 The conferences, [Tamás: the conferences] where you talk to people Tamás: 01:18:12 Exactly come by the departments. The trouble is, I think that is big because it's so highly regulated. There's a giant gap between those people who are trying to solve the problems of the world, maybe policy makers in one set, but the startup communities is another [Athena agrees] who who do not get access to the new knowledge. [Athena agrees] Um, I'm part of, uh, something called Kinnernet. It's a, it's a startup community. [Athena agrees] I am one of their pet scientists. [Athena laughs] And I, I observed that they think about academia as something stuffy, and we should not, no new knowledge has changed. Whereas, [Athena agrees] you know, every week, I mean this week [Athena: Yeah] we had a bunch of new things. I like um. So every week there is a bunch of new things that is, is often shaking up. You know, there was a a Homo sapien discovered, like just a few days ago, published from Greece, like suddenly 20,000 years ago, there was Homo sapien discovered in Greece. Oh, wow. It just thrown out 30% of [Athena laughs] of archeology 60% of, [Athena: Yeah] of knowledge as being effective. And every week we have something like that. So what if we killed interdisciplinarity? It's only a question to you. What if we killed interdisciplinarity because then we will not be disciplined anymore. And we sit down and we restructure, restructure human knowledge, scientific knowledge, academic knowledge that allows other knowledge systems to enter. But also that allows a better communication [Athena agrees] between this knowledge base and those inventors, startup people, policy people [Athena agrees] who would, what do you think? Athena: 01:19:56 So, I mean, you're talking about both restructuring knowledge and creating a common language [Tamás: An interface, yes] for talking about it. Tamás: 01:20:03 Yes. [Athena: Yeah] I mean, you could think of that. You could think of two concepts, like a stock concept of knowledge and the flow concept of knowledge. [Athena agrees] So, so then, and and these, these might have two different interfaces. I haven't quite thought about what the new interfaces are. Clearly the current publication system is broken. [Athena agrees] Uh, so, so somehow we might need to rethink, or we should really rethink the way we have the floor communication, but maybe even the, the stock communication, yeah. Now, these days we use universities for that. [Athena agrees] Maybe we should, I mean, given the magnitude the size of the problem that our species created on this planet, uh, we should maybe have an attempt at anyway, that's uh what do you think, is this crazy? Athena: 01:20:47 I think that, you know, it might be crazy, but it also might be what we need to do, you know, so. [Laughs] Tamás: 01:20:53 Yes, exactly. We should do something. It's a crisis. Athena: 01:20:58 And, and I, I mean, I think the whole question of, you know, how should we be organizing knowledge you know there are so many things wrong with the way that knowledge is currently organized [Tamás: Yes] and it's not just the, you know, disciplinary issues like, um, the, you know, the question of, you know, publication, like the fact that, you know, when we, when we published something like, yes, now, you know, it's on the internet and you can search it. So that's great. But if you want to just like, get the the data from a paper, um, the, you know, having that in a PDF, that's like, totally not queryable you can't, [Tamás: Yes] you know, extract actually the data [Tamás: Yes] from the paper with yeah. So, it just doesn't make sense from an information perspective to be encoding knowledge, the way that we are, uh, just in terms of [Tamás: Yes] like the information structure. [Tamás: Yes] Yeah. So it does need a total rethink. [Tamás: Yes] And, um, I think, you know, if there is a way to do it where we can better leverage our, you know, our human brains to, I mean, my, my intuition about it is that like, you know, yes, we need some repository for knowledge, right? And we need some, we need to be able to use computation as an assistant to our brains, [Tamás: Yes] but the the real way that we're going to solve things is by being able to interface our brains better. And whether that's, you know, uh, you know, being more tolerant [Tamás agrees] of having close relationships with people [Tamás agrees] who believe things [Tamás agrees] that are totally different than what you believe, [Tamás agrees] or have knowledge and domains [Tamás agrees] that you have no familiarity with, [Tamás agrees] but you can trust them, [Tamás agrees] um, or the ability to come together and actually like engage in a, in a story and imagine things about what might happen? You know- Tamás: 01:22:49 So you're saying that you are, you are designing a new set of behavioral interfaces, behavioral protocols, that facilitate, facilitated, they, reduce the cost of brunching out, reduce the cost of, of, of, of, of, of relying knowledge and ideas in other people's brains, which is, which is, which is, which is exactly what is needed. [Athena: Yeah] So if this is going to, if this, if we are going to be able to work, uh, is exactly what is needed. So I think that sort of jumping away from that set. So, [Athena: Yeah], so, so if I think about what is going to is going to be like, I think about space, actual physical spaces [Athena agrees] that all around the world, you go in, I mean, [Athena agrees] it's crazy. You go in and get the coffee, [Athena: Yeah] you get wifi, you get electricity, you get a chair or a mattress. And, and that is a space where sort of the local neuron and almost every village, every town- Oh, is it a phone call? Um, [Athena: Is it in the local town?] yeah so it's almost every, every, every little human social unit would have a little bit of this space. [Athena agrees intermittently] And then wouldn't require an interface, a pro, a behavioral or protocol of how do you connect these set of brains to another set of brains in which we have, we turn ourselves into an actual functioning brain that because we need to we need to be like, look at these problems that we are facing [Athena: Yeah] completely crazy. [Athena: Yeah] And we are not panicking enough. [Athena: Yeah.] Athena: 01:24:19 Yeah, well, I think we need to have trust, you know, but then it's like, well, how do you develop that trust with people who [Tamás: Right] know things that you don't know so that you can put your brains together to try to solve something you couldn't solve by yourself. Um, and I, I mean, I think that sometimes also, you know, academia and humans in general get really zombified by ego also, right? So it's like, Oh, well, am I going to get credit for this? Or I'm going to get enough credit, or, you know, and, and so to the extent that, you know, academia you know is a place where people have careers, where they're trying to advance, I think sometimes that can also get in the way of the kind of trust and brain sharing that would need to happen to really solve some of the problems that we have. Tamás: 01:25:06 Here's a question. What if we have a practice of giving an, an idea every week as an unconditional gift, we would, we would actually, we would think about other people's research problems. And then we would, we would come up and say, this is an, this is tagged as an unconditional gift. I will never not be on the paper. I will not get funding from this. It's a gift from me to you. And they've just once a week, everybody would find anybody is given unconditionally. Athena: 01:25:36 That's awesome. I love that. Tamás: 01:25:37 And then, It's a super simple protocol. [Athena: Yeah] We come up with ideas all the time [Athena: Yeah] and they say, this is yours, [Athena: Yeah] and that's it. And then let's see what happens. Athena: 01:25:47 I think that that is a great place to start [Tamás: Yeah] yeah and a great place to end perhaps. Tamás: 01:25:53 And the podcast. [Both laugh] This is a great conversation. Again, we always have such great, [Athena: Yeah] I really really enjoy talking to you. Athena: 01:26:00 Likewise, thanks for sharing your wonderful brains. Outro: 01:26:23 Psychological by Lemi Athena: 01:27:21 Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. Dave: 01:27:28 And we would like to thank everyone in our extended and close social network that helps make Zombified possible, uh, including the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University. Athena: 01:27:42 Yeah. And the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and the President's Office at ASU Dave: 01:27:48 And the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics- Athena: 01:27:52 -of social networks. Dave: 01:27:54 [Laughs] That's right, and zombie networks- Athena: 01:27:55 -Zombie networks, all the brains that help to make this podcast including Tal Rom who does our fabulous sound, Dave: 01:28:05 Neil Smith, who does all our illustrations, Athena: 01:28:09 Lemi the creator of our awesome song, Psychological. Dave: 01:28:14 That's right. And everyone on the Z-Team, um, who really are a part of our social network now. And actually as are all the other people we just mentioned, but- [Athena: Yes] And, uh, and they also, they work on extending our network through social media and [Athena: That's right so you can-] letting you guys know- Athena: 01:28:34 You can join our social network by following us on Twitter, finding us on Facebook. We're on Tik Tok. Where else are we? Instagram? Dave: 01:28:45 Yeah, whatever thing they've invented between the time we pressed stop. And by the time we uploaded, [Athena laughs] these we'll be there. So send us a, send us some sort of message. If you'd like, [Athena: Yeah] um, or a hologram or whatever the heck it is um. [Both laugh] So the main place to find all these different things is zombified.org, uh, that has our episodes and all that stuff. Athena: 01:29:11 Yeah, yeah, so. And if you want video check out channelzed.org, We have videos. They're really fun. We have shows that, uh, range from kind of like news shows to cooking in the apocalypse shows to medical advice if you get bit by a zombie. So definitely check that out. Dave: 01:29:28 Yeah, they are useful, hilarious, terrifying all at once. So- Athena: 01:29:36 [Laughs] And if that's not enough for you, you can also buy our merch. So you could get like t-shirts, coffee mugs. Um, then you can put your coffee in it so that you're not so zombified. Dave: 01:29:46 And if people see you're wearing this t-shirt or walking around town with the coffee mug, they can say, Hey, we're part of the same extended social network through our mutual interest in zombified. And then [Athena: That is right] you can make a new friend. Athena: 01:30:02 Yeah, and I do have to say, Dave, that working with you and the rest of our Z-team, both, you know, our undergraduates and our whole production team for Zombified and Channel Zed has, um, really been a lifeline for me in these Apocalyptish Times. Dave: 01:30:19 Yeah, me too. It really has been a ton of fun. And I feel like we've grown really close, like literally like a big family, um, Athena: 01:30:28 A big dysfunctional family that's way too connected now, so- Dave: 01:30:32 And who only see each other over Zoom. [Athena: That's right] Well, um, well, yeah, well this, you know, it's, it's always been fun. So, um, thanks. Athena: 01:30:42 Thank you. And thank you all for listening to Zombified: your source for fresh brains. Outro: 01:30:50 [Psychological by Lemi]