Athena (00:00:03):
Have you been zombified by screens?

Dave (00:00:07):
I mean has anyone not at this point?

Athena (00:00:09):
[Athena laughs] Yeah, we are all zombified by screens. [Dave agrees] Yeah, screens in our pockets, 
screens in the movie theater screens, our television screens.

Dave (00:00:21):
Yeah, everywhere, so yeah.

Athena (00:00:22):
Yeah-

Dave (00:00:23):
And sometimes both. Sometimes I'll be watching a movie with my kids and they'll have their phones out 
and I'll have my phone out so screens on top of screens.

Athena (00:00:32):
Wow. Welcome to the Zombified podcast, your source for fresh brains. I'm your host, Athena Aktipis, 
psychology professor at ASU and chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave (00:00:44):
And I'm your cohost, Dave Lundberg Kenrick, media outreach program manager at Arizona State 
University and screen enthusiast. [Athena laughs]

Athena (00:00:52):
Screens, brains.

Dave (00:00:55):
Exactly so-

Athena (00:00:55):
The intersection of brains and screens.

Dave (00:00:57):
I think that's our eyeballs. But, yeah. So, who are we talking to today?

Athena (00:01:03):
Today we are talking with Ilana Rein who is a filmmaker and so we talk about lots of different aspects of 
screens. We talk about our personal experience with sort of dealing with that tension of how much do 
you put of your own life onto other people's screens. We talk about how your own life can inspire 
filmmaking because for Ilana, a lot of her experiences with her family and especially with her mom who 
had Alzheimer's really influenced her filmmaking.

Dave (00:01:42):
Interesting.

Athena (00:01:43):
Yeah. So we take a personal and kind of philosophical approach to all of these complex issues around 
how we grapple with screens and film and content that we are sharing with the world more broadly.

Dave (00:01:58):
Cool. Now, uh, what is your favorite part of today's episode?

Athena (00:02:02):
My favorite part of today's episode is how Ilana really shares a lot of intimate details about her life and 
her family in a... a way that makes you feel like she's, you know, your, your neighbor, your best friend. 
Like you're just sitting down and having a conversation with someone who's really willing to talk about 
deep issues.

Dave (00:02:32):
Cool.

Athena (00:02:34):
Yeah. So let's hear from this week's fresh brain, Ilana Ryan.

Intro: (00:02:39):
[Psychological by Lemi]

Athena (00:03:15):
Welcome to Zombified.

Ilana (00:03:17):
Thank you for having me.

Athena (00:03:19):
So just to start, would you, um, introduce yourself in your own words? I mean, we know each other 
actually, you know, I think of all people I've ever interviewed, had on the show, I've known you for the 
longest.

Ilana (00:03:34):
That's pretty cool.

Athena (00:03:36):
Yeah. Cause I was what, like, 13 or something when we met?

Ilana (00:03:39):
13. That's probably right.

Athena (00:03:41):
So we go way, way back.

Ilana (00:03:42):
Through many phases. [Athena agrees] Of our personal evolution. [Ilana laughs]

Athena (00:03:46):
Exactly, Exactly. So, um, so yeah. Ilana, who are you now?

Ilana (00:03:52):
Who am I now? [Athena laughs] Well, um, I am a filmmaker, a director and screenwriter and um, I'm 
also a mom, a photographer. I live in Los Angeles. I was born and raised in New York city, and um, I make 
movies and photographs out here in LA.

Athena (00:04:17):
Awesome.

Ilana (00:04:17):
Yeah.

Athena (00:04:18):
Excellent. So, um, so you know, we talked a little bit before the show just about the idea for Zombified 
and you know, it's all about like these things that affect our behavior. Things that maybe hijack us, 
manipulate us without us realizing it. [Ilana agrees] Um, or maybe with us realizing it and, um, movies, 
the screen.

Ilana (00:04:41):
Oh boy, the screen

Athena (00:04:43):
The screen.

Ilana (00:04:44):
Yes!

Athena (00:04:44):
It's kind of a big one, isn't it?

Ilana (00:04:45):
Oh, it's huge. And it's actually something I personally wrestle with it if not daily, multiple times a day. I 
am confronted with, um, the fact that I'm a media creator, that I actually love movies. I enjoy making 
things for screen yet I see, um, how the screen has evolved in my lifetime and really just since, um, I 
don't know, post-college, just everyone has a phone. Um, people are watching movies on their phones. 
So I've got children where are, who are constantly wanting to be on the screen, [Athena agrees] much 
like most kids. So I find myself saying, you know, you've got to stop this and I have a keen awareness 
that people are getting addicted to screens. Meanwhile, I really want everyone to watch my movie 
[Athena agrees] that's coming out and like, on their screen. [Athena agrees] So yes, I, it's, it's a bit of an 
uneasy relationship and in some way, when I was a photographer, it was much more simple because 
photographs are viewed, uh, were viewed traditionally, um, on a wall in a gallery or a museum or in a 
book. Morally, they were spread much wider to mass audiences through books.

Athena (00:06:14):
But now it's just content on Instagram.

Ilana (00:06:16):
Now it's content on Instagram. And that's something I was also never comfortable with. Um, I, I see so 
many people really giving away their art, a fine trained, uh, fine art trained photographers and artists 
putting other stuff on Instagram and um, often, and it strikes me as, as just giving away too much, that 
the immediacy and I, I miss, um, the books. I miss the slowness and miss how art can actually just slow 
us down and, and I feel like it should slow us down to reflect, and I feel like the mediums of the screens 
are all about speeding things up.

Athena (00:07:04):
Oh, that's interesting. So the, the change that you've seen is, is not just like screens sort of invading 
more and more of our lives, but actually the kind of content on them changing so that it is more sort of 
fast paced and like [Ilana agrees] grabbing and re-grabbing your attention all the time.

Ilana (00:07:26):
Exactly. And that as artists perhaps now are expected to just be creating constantly. Um, if you have a, if 
you have an artist page, you know, or a blog, you have to always be producing. And I know I have several 
friends who are resisting that because it goes against the nature of their creative process. I mean, there 
are some people who can just like produce, produce, produce. I mean, even before Instagram, there 
were painters, you know, painting a week and you know, they were just doing it as this frenetic and you 
know, maybe they died at 50 of a heart attack. I don't know. [Athena laughs] But, but you know, so 
much of the creative process I feel could be in danger because we are expected to be so out there and 
have such a presence and create constantly. [Athena agrees] And I think this will lead me into the whole 
zombified thing.

Athena (00:08:28):
Yeah, yeah.

Ilana (00:08:29):
Because I feel like part of my process is, um, are the days when I just need to take stuff in and have, the 
input, you know, [Athena agrees] have the inputs coming in and um, that can be from a walk or 
strangely, the weirdest one is when I go to a mall.

Athena (00:08:54):
Oh, really?

Ilana (00:08:55):
Yeah. And it's not to shop, it's not to buy anything. And-

Athena (00:08:59):
So what do you do when you go to the mall?

Ilana (00:09:03):
I, I watch people and lately I've been just watching people be on their phones.

Athena (00:09:11):
Really?

Ilana (00:09:11):
Yeah. And when, and when, when I see people that aren't, I like make really quick eye contact with them 
and they look at me and it's almost like we've like picked ourselves out. Like we're the, you know-

Athena (00:09:23):
The not zombies.

Ilana (00:09:23):
The not zombies. Yeah. [Athena laughs] We're the survivors. We're the humans. [Everyone laughs]

Athena (00:09:28):
You survived the smartphone zombie apocalypse. [laughter]

Ilana (00:09:31):
Right! And that's what it feels like. Like, Oh, okay. There you're in front of, you know, Abercrombie and 
Fitch waiting for your girlfriend and you're not on your phone. What a weird sight that is.

Athena (00:09:42):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:09:42):
Um, but no, there's something about just going to the mall and I don't do this a lot. It's just merely one 
little function of a day in a possible [Athena agrees] creative day. Um, that's, that's numbing. There's 
something numbing about them all. That, the lighting and the canned music and the, uh, cheery, the 
cheeriness of the salespeople, like, I know how to work them. I know how to talk to them to get like 
certain reactions and not like I'm manipulating them.

Athena (00:10:17):
Uh-huh.

Ilana (00:10:17):
But I just feel like it's like a place where I can just like, there are no surprises.

Athena (00:10:23):
Huh, So what do you, what you, what do you get from that? Like from the numbness of the mall needs a 
creative process.

Ilana (00:10:31):
People around me. Um, cause in New York what I would do, I could just walk outside in New York and be 
around a lot of people and sort of just blend in and just feel like, okay, I'm part of this earth. I'm going to 
observe. I mean a lot of my writing comes from just watching people and observing, watching 
mannerisms, listening to how couples talk to each other, sit in a cafe and just observe and listen. And 
um, here in LA, you know, we're in the Hills here and I see my neighbors, but you know, I might see like 
a person walking their dog and we talk. That's not my dog. But it's not the crowd. It's not the common. 
So in town, in so much of America, the commons is, is the mall. And we've got this fake city, I wish I 
could take you there.

Athena (00:11:26):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:11:26):
It's like the simulacrum of a city. It's an outdoor mall with apartments all around the shopping area and 
fountain and people actually live there, but they're living above like a Barney's co-op or, or you know,

Athena (00:11:41):
Wow.

Ilana (00:11:41):
- a Madewell not like the shoemaker, or grocery store.

Athena (00:11:49):
Right, right. It's mixed. The mixed use thing,

Ilana (00:11:51):
Right.

Athena (00:11:51):
But it's like kind of creepily like almost like a Las Vegas version of a city.

Ilana (00:11:56):
Exactly. And it's high end. It's like, Oh honey, run down to the Mac store and buy me a computer. 
[Athena laughs] I mean, it's very weird because, [Athena agrees] but, and they, and they pipe in, um, uh, 
Frank Sinatra music pretty much exclusively. It's really - [Both laugh]

Athena (00:12:11):
It sounds so creepy.

Ilana (00:12:11):
And it's outside these apartments. You're listening to this canned music, you're watching thousands of 
people shopping and it's a high end mall. It's like God, the expensive stores. It's not the highest end. It's 
not like Gucci, but, [Athena agrees] but the point is, is like, so all these people are walking around just in 
this haze and they're all made up and dressed in the best clothes that they bought at the mall. [Athena 
laughs] And so I find this, I don't know, is it comfort I find? No, I don't, I don't know what it is. It's almost 
like I'm visiting another place. It's so familiar cause I grew up nothing like that.

Athena (00:12:52):
You're like a mall anthropologist.

Ilana (00:12:54):
Maybe.

Athena (00:12:54):
Yeah. [Athena laughs]

Ilana (00:12:55):
But, for some reason I'm just like, if I'm at odds with what to do and that, or like I've got writer's block or 
I'm waiting for some tech thing from my editor and I just like, I got to get out of the house and um, 
sometimes I'll just go [Athena agrees] and, but I do find it, if I'm there too long from the inside part, my 
head actually starts to hurt the lighting [Athena laughs] and then I start getting like really bummed out. 
Just seeing everyone on their phone. I can't, you can't stand it. [Everyone laughs] But I use my phone 
too.

Athena (00:13:29):
Yeah, right. That's the thing, we-

Ilana (00:13:30):
I'm not a luddite!

Athena (00:13:30):
We're all [Ilana agrees] complaining about the screens, but like what would we do without them?

Ilana (00:13:38):
I know.

Athena (00:13:39):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:13:40):
I know. But you know, I was in Joshua Tree this weekend and um, I made a vow. I said, no news and no 
laptop. And I found myself checking into myself a few times, like just wanting and craving it. But then 
after a few hours, it ceased. And then by the time I got back here to LA, I didn't want to be on the 
computer at all.

Athena (00:14:07):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:14:07):
And it's like, Oh, okay, we can actually rewire ourselves. We can actually do this. [Athena agrees] It's just 
a little uncomfortable at first.

Athena (00:14:15):
Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think it is about screens that like captures our attention, keeps our 
attention, like you know, how, like what is that process like for a viewer that that gets them engaged in 
that way?

Ilana (00:14:30):
Well, I mean, I guess it depends how we're using the screen. Like, I mean, I think with, um, movies and 
TV and you know, binge watching series, it's just our desire and love of, of narrative and story maybe 
that we just all love stories and you know,

Athena (00:14:50):
But you can get that from a book, [Ilana agrees] or text, right? Or listening just to [Ilana agrees] a story, 
but with screens, it is this other [Ilana agrees] mode of input that just seems to be able to-

Ilana (00:15:03):
Maybe it's, uh, we want to feel like we're part of something, you know, I don't know. I mean I've put on 
the radio when I'm cooking because I love the music, but it's also kind of just functions as background 
music, [Athena agrees] but it's like my local radio station and I feel like I'm part of that community. Um, 
so maybe when we log on to our social media, I think that's definitely like part of the community and 
that's something I've, I actually had to actively quit because it took an unhealthy turn a couple of years 
ago. Um, and I, I've found myself, you know, with my kids in a beautiful spot in Death Valley during some 
super bloom and I started, you know, taking photographs and making them, and that's something I've 
been doing forever, practically my whole life. But that wasn't what it was. It was like what I was going to 
post. And-

Athena (00:16:03):
I mean, you were like thinking about, "How am I going to capture this for the Instagram?" [Ilana agrees] 
As opposed to what do I want to capture for myself as an artist?

Ilana (00:16:14):
Right or what about, and what really got me is like, what about just being there with my kids and just 
being present and being in the moment? And I realized that I was more living in my virtual world than I 
was in my actual world. And it was escapism. And I think the screen does that. I think it's something just 
clicks in our, in our head that, that says, okay, you're, you're in this, you're in this screen right now. 
You're in this news article, you're in this social media, you're in this message board and it's really hard to 
stop it. [Athena agrees] And when we do, we can feel actually a physical withdrawal. Like, Ugh, you 
know, now it's different. Now I'm here in the real world. The real world isn't really that easy sometimes. 
Um, and this, you know, our screens are easy. We can totally manipulate it. If we don't like what 
someone's saying, don't ever have to follow them.

Athena (00:17:13):
So it's a little more controllable [Ilana agrees] than actual world around us.

Ilana (00:17:17):
It's absolutely more controllable. But, but interestingly, I've found that, um, I stopped, I quit Facebook 
and I went private on Instagram, which immediately like just really mellowed it out. I post every six 
months on it and maybe check every now and then. But, um, that it actually helped me, um, in my life in 
ways that I can't even measure at this point in terms of focus and clarity and just being present.

Athena (00:17:51):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:17:52):
Being present in the moment and not wanting to escape the moment, [Athena agrees] you know? And I 
think that we can, there's so many ways this culture gives us to zone out, to block out the feelings. Um, 
screens are, are probably the most insidious, but maybe alcohol and drugs are worse. [Ilana laughs] 
Because they actually have- [Athena agrees] And also I, I stopped all of that. I mean, I've, um, haven't 
had any intoxicants since, I don't know, a couple months after I quit Facebook. So I can't, and I feel 
great. I've never felt better and more present in my life.

Athena (00:18:32):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:18:32):
And I realized that, um, it wasn't like there were any, um, horrible bottom issues. It wasn't like, you 
know, you hear tales of, you know, drug abuse and alcohol wasn't anything like that. But I realized like, 
wow, I'm actually not present. Like why do I need to have that glass of wine? Why do I need to partake 
in this or that at a party? [Athena agrees] Um, why can't I just enjoy it right now? Or why can't I be okay 
with feeling sad or having a stressful day and just know that that's going to pass through too.

Athena (00:19:10):
yeah, it's sort of like a mindfulness practice.

Ilana (00:19:12):
Absolutely.

Athena (00:19:13):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:19:13):
But it's weird cause now that, you know, when I think about the order of things, I sometimes wonder if if 
one would have been possible, wouldn't have been possible without the other or they go hand in hand, 
you know, which things like quitting social media.

Athena (00:19:33):
Oh, right. And quit drinking.

Ilana (00:19:36):
Right, cause it all takes you away from the present and then, and um, I dunno. They both kind of capture 
your attention that capture your money. [Athena agrees] They capture, they're taking a piece of your 
bandwidth. They're taking a piece of your bandwidth. [Athena agrees] Yeah. Your privacy.

Athena (00:19:56):
Yeah, so do you think there's something special about like the visual images, like whether they're photos 
or, you know, moving pictures, films. Like is that a special category of things that we get on a, on a 
screen? Does it have special properties when it comes to our attention?

Ilana (00:20:16):
Probably. I mean, I think, you know, there are, it's funny when you look at what goes viral, like it could 
be like a five second clip of what you said, the dancing alien baby- [Everyone laughs].

Athena (00:20:28):
Yeah, something like that.

Ilana (00:20:32):
And just like, huh, that's really fascinating that that could have 400,000 people watching that over and 
over again. [Athena laughs] And like, why is this so wonderful? Um, I think, again, I think that's 
something that might just be innately like part of us. I mean, think of like some of the first photographs 
that ever were, you know, the horse, you know, showing the horse galloping-

Athena (00:20:56):
Uh-huh.

Ilana (00:20:56):
-where you could for the first time, see that all the feet were off the ground. [Athena agrees] You know, 
the Moy bridge or certain, um, you know, early photography or certain trick photography people were 
fascinated by. So maybe there's just an element of novelty to it that we're all like, Oh, look at that. Um, 
there's probably some Freud in it too. Just like, Oh look, that guy just fell down his stairs and his pants 
came down and, [Everyone laughs] you know, like, why is that shared half a million times? [Both laugh] 
You know? Um, so yeah, I think people, it's easy.

Athena (00:21:36):
Yeah. And we're also just like really visual beings, right? We like [Ilana agrees] we asses, a lot of 
information-

Ilana (00:21:41):
Totally.

Athena (00:21:41):
-through our eyes and, and I mean, that kind of then makes sense that if you can create something that 
attracts visual attention, then that's going to be, it's gonna be hard to, hard to, you know, remove 
yourself from that. Especially because like, you know, if, if there's something moving, like, I don't know, I 
kind of think of it from an evolutionary perspective. Like, you know, our ancestors, they're on the 
savannas of Africa or whatever. If there's something moving, like, you should probably attend to it, it 
might be fitness relevant, right? [Ilana agrees] It could be a predator. It could be, um, something you 
could eat. It could be, you know, another human [Ilana agrees] that is coming to do you harm or, um, try 
to have a positive interaction with you. Or it could be your, your child like there. [Ilana agrees] You 
know, if things were moving and in your visual field, they probably sort of deserved attention in terms of 
like being relevant to you.

Ilana (00:22:40):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's also just, I mean, I don't know what to make of all this talk 
of how our attention span is getting shorter. Um, again, I think that that's kind of learned-

Athena (00:22:54):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:22:54):
-in a way. Like we're, we're allowing it to happen and it's like, this is-

Athena (00:23:00):
So like, what has happened in terms of film? Like have there actually been like quantifiable changes in 
the, you know, the cuts?

Ilana (00:23:08):
Hmm.

Athena (00:23:08):
And like the, you know, the speeding up of things. Is that? [Ilana agrees] Maybe you can give a little 
background on that.

Ilana (00:23:14):
Sure. Well, I mean, I can't speak for the, you know, entire history of cinema right now, but, but over time 
has especially sped up recently, um, on the timeline filmmaking, uh, yeah. Edits have gotten a lot faster. 
Um, there's a lot more. Um, there's a lot, well, certain types of films, there's a lot more explosions. Um, 
the pacing is faster. They've also gotten incredibly violent and visually so, um, obviously not all cinema, 
but even just like say just like a romantic comedy made now compared to say 30 years ago, you're going 
to have a montage with like lots of rapid cuts and you know, just, you know, a series of shots. Montages, 
you know, that are just rapid fire. Um, and I don't know exactly who decided that that has to be cause it 
used to be just an effective film technique to kind of grab someone's attention. But now it almost seems 
like it's the de facto technique. And, um, I was, you know, in terms of science fiction, um, that's really 
the, my genre that I love the most and um, made few films and made a thriller film, a feature called 
Perception, um, where we deal with things that are not of this world. Um, we've just suspended some 
disbelief and I am influenced greatly by some older films and some European films where it is slightly 
slower. Where you don't have to have, you know, crazy fast cuts and Rapids and booms and you know, 
sound effects that are just like blasting the viewer because I feel like that that can be, um, really just 
distracting and also pandering.

Athena (00:25:21):
It seems like also, you know, if a movie is cut so fast, it's almost like as a viewer you don't have any 
bandwidth to be processing [Ilana agrees] what you're seeing and what you're feeling with it.

Ilana (00:25:34):
No, it's like a video game basically. [Athena agrees] I mean, I took, um, my teenage son to see 2001 on 
the screen at the Santa Monica, uh, theater there had a remastered cut and I've taken him to see 
several films and you know, he's a teen boy and he's, he really, I was a little concerned. I was like, I really 
wonder what he's going to think of this because it's so beautiful. It's so slow. And um, he really liked it.

Athena (00:26:06):
And you're like, phew. [Both laugh]

Ilana (00:26:08):
Yeah, He liked it. But he also really likes, you know, the transformers and he likes mad max. And so, but 
then he also liked Arrival, which is another slow paced. And you know, there's no-

Athena (00:26:24):
Very thoughtful.

Ilana (00:26:25):
Thought, this thoughtful and there's no war at the end where earth is obliterated. I mean I love those 
films too. That's just like brain candy and eye candy to me. I mean the thing, so I, I, I feel, I guess my 
point in bringing up him was that I don't know why they feel like that's the only way to make a movie 
these days-

Athena (00:26:47):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:26:47):
-when clearly there are people who can appreciate slower paced, thoughtful things. And I feel like if we 
just keep this up, I mean I saw End Game the other day with them and at one point I had to like close my 
eyes and look down. There were so many things on fire, I lost track. [Athena laughs] I was like, what the 
hell? I was like, is the theater on fire? [Athena laughs] I mean, it was just so much! And it didn't have to 
be that way. So, I don't know why I, it makes me, it gets me a little frustrated that all this content is 
being put out there and we're constantly being told like it has to, you know, this is just the way it is. It's 
fast cut violence, sex, you know bleh. But it's like you're, they're just assuming that that's what everyone 
even teenage boys want and it's not necessarily true. [Athena agrees] There's manipulation going on 
and I don't know what the end is like what, what they have to gain by making films like that.

Athena (00:27:55):
Yeah. Well I mean it certainly does sort of just play into this. Like there should never be a dull moment 
where you're not being stimulated with something, which is part of the whole like smartphones, social 
media, checking this and checking that there's like no downtime. Right? Like if you are waiting in line for 
the bathroom or somebody that you're having dinner with gets up to go to the bathroom. Like, you 
know, I do it, I vote, take out my phone and I'll be like, why am I doing that? How come? I can't just sit 
there and be like, I have a moment to consider and enjoy where I am and be with my own thoughts.

Ilana (00:28:37):
But, well, right and why, why can't we just be with our own thoughts? [Athena agrees] What are we 
scared of? Why, why it is a habit. It's a reflex and it's, it's, I don't know, I feel like the awareness that we 
have of that is the first step. And I know more and more people are becoming aware because it doesn't 
feel good. I actually feel like we're at a new, I think we're at an awakening of sorts and I think this is the 
beginning of a new era of, of um, awareness that people are being hooked into these devices. I don't 
think it's gone mainstream yet. Yeah. But, um, it's definitely happening. I mean, I'm having more and 
more conversations like this. I mean, my dear friend, she's a neurologist and um, you know, she sat, we 
sat down across the table from each other in December and she was like, I really need to figure out how 
to stop this. Yep. And she was as serious as anything. She, you know, and I was like, well, let's come up 
with a plan. Let's figure out how we can stop that. She goes a minute, I'm news, I'm scrolling the New 
York times at 11:00 PM in bed. I'm like, well why would you do that? That's like asking for trouble. But 
you know, people serious, people are realizing that we are part of what's perhaps the biggest 
brainwashing experiment on planet earth ever.

Athena (00:30:14):
Wow.

Ilana (00:30:15):
I honestly believe that. I really feel so.

Athena (00:30:19):
So what do you, what do you think is going on like that is leading to, to the mass scale of it? Like what's, 
is it just, uh, the business interest behind social media?

Ilana (00:30:31):
I think the money. I think the algorithms took over and um, the algorithms were built on engagement 
and they were built on eyeballs being on the screen as long as possible. Cause that's what sells. That's 
what sells the ads and the ads came in and, um, that's how they make their money. So, you know, the, 
the part that really spooked me, and this happened, um, I think right before I decided to quit were when 
it came out that Facebook was doing those psychological experiments with people's newsfeeds. They 
would plant psychologically disturbing articles and then they would click them or they then they'd gauge 
their responses and then they'd see what would happen. Like, well, what's, where will that lead them? 
And then if you're in a heightened state of stress or distress, you are more likely to buy something that 
will help you feel better or maybe, you know, post some, some other type of content that leads 
somewhere else. So just the, the, the notion that they were doing these experiments, like I can't believe 
more, I can't believe like a billion people didn't quit seriously after hearing that, that is so messed up and 
I'm really like, they're bad actors in our brains.

Athena (00:32:03):
Right. And we just happened to allow our brains to get hooked up to our devices in such a way that they 
can poke our brains.

Ilana (00:32:11):
Like they're poking the brands and they're, they're seeing what you scroll on. I mean, even Netflix, when 
I'm watching something on Netflix, I read that there are people that analyze where you stop, where you 
pause your, your film or TV show, they, they know, which shows you don't finish watching. They know at 
what point in time they know how to start a film. They know how to, what to put in the middle. It's all 
graphed out for, for engagement. Every single thing is mapped out and they're tracking you. So 
obviously I'm okay with a certain amount of tracking cause like I do enjoy Netflix. I mean I just finished 
watching, uh, all of Star Trek, Next Generation with CarMax on it. And that was my second time 
watching. And then we also watch Voyager. So this took place over a couple of years. Uh, we watched 
every episode together and it was a bonding, wonderful thing. So like I, I am so grateful for Netflix for 
that. So I'm not like trying to, I'm not doing a bashing of technology. [Athena agrees] So I accept that 
they know very well that this is a scifi family, [Athena agrees] you know, so the choices that come up on 
my account like are as different as you could imagine from say my friend in New York who watches, you 
know, documentaries about obscure Danish artists. I saw her account, I was like, this is Netflix? Like 
what are these shows? What are these films like? They would never show up on my feed. [Athena 
agrees]

Athena (00:33:54):
Well and I mean on first pass, right, that's good because you get to see the things [Ilana agrees] that 
you're more likely to want to watch. [Ilana agrees] Then it does, you know it, it does just feed into this 
whole like echo chamber kind of thing where you end up, you know, showing that you're potentially 
part of a, a group that like these kinds of things and you're just like grouped [Ilana agrees] with all of 
them. And then you stopped seeing as much of the world, [Ilana agrees] you've showed that you have 
preferences for seeing only certain parts of the world. And then the algorithms show you the parts of 
the world that you've indicated you would rather see.

Ilana (00:34:32):
Exactly. It's a bit of a trap, [Athena agrees] but I guess I could just find out a name of some, you know, 
strange film that whatever, you know, and then get a new feed. But yeah, no, it's so, it's, it's weird. But 
you have the manipulation. I mean, I, one thing I tell my boy is that I say, you know, these companies 
make money on hooking you. Um, and you know, when it comes to cigarettes, they did that with, when I 
was a kid, there were still like cartoon ads for cigarettes cause they knew, well, you know, like that 
camel and Joe camel and couple of others. And they were marketing because they knew they had to 
hook the children, the teenagers to create lifelong customers and addicts. And it worked. So then, you 
know, it came, stepped in with, you know, some regulations. But the same is true for cigarettes, vaping, 
alcohol and social media where technology really, they make money on hooking you. And um, I mean 
I'm hooked. I'm an Apple customer. I've like synched my-

Athena (00:35:50):
- life [Athena laughs].

Ilana (00:35:55):
-devices. Right! You know, "Hello Skynet," you know, but, um, I love the machine. It's a great operating 
system. [Athena agrees] It works for me. Um, you know, I do editing on it. It's just perfect. So like I said, 
it's, there's this uneasy tension I have, but I guess I'm just doing what I can to not be, you know, uh, a 
zombie [Ilana laughs], you know, to not be the person at the mall. Like with my head down like that 
looking cause I have 30 seconds before the person I'm meeting shows up.

Athena (00:36:30):
So how does this like, affect or feed into your process as a filmmaker? Like this, you know, changing 
relationship with screens that has been happening, like for you personally, but also you seeing it more 
generally in the people around you over time? Like does it affect how you approach your work or?

Ilana (00:36:53):
Not really, no, I mean, I mean, I guess when I'm in like full writing mode, um, and you know, I'm, I'm 
writing on the screen so my face is there all the time. Uh, likewise, if I'm, uh, in an edit session or even 
on set, they're surrounded by cameras and screens. So I feel it's like, I love it. Like that, that whole part 
of it. These are useful tools and, uh, that I can get my work done and I feel great affection towards the 
machines and the technology. And this film I made back in, um, called, We Are All Cylons. Um, I, it's 
about AI and our relationship to it and our evolution as humans. Uh, as we enter this new, uh, era 
basically, um, the advent of AI and programming, um, that I put myself in the mindset of a computer in 
order to edit the film.

Athena (00:38:03):
Really?

Ilana (00:38:03):
Yeah. I pretended I was an artificial intelligence. And how would an AI tackle this material that dealt 
with, um, you know, characters in a show thinking, believing they were human, but then actually finding 
out they were machines. So I was really fascinated with the overlap of, of, you know, being sentient 
being, you know, where, where does that line happen? When is it going to happen with machines?

Athena (00:38:34):
Well, and there's all this stuff about like the predictive technology, right? So if you are typing things in 
Google, like Google can guess what your next, you know, word is going to be. And like if you're like 
typing texts and I know there's like some setting you can turn on that'll, like auto failure texts.

Ilana (00:38:54):
Have you found that it's helpful?

Athena (00:38:56):
No I just, I turn all that stuff off just cause it creeps me out. Like I would rather type a little bit more. 
Yeah, it just, yeah. But there, I think there's this really interesting question of like, well you know, if your, 
your sentences are getting auto-filled like are you deciding what you're writing or is the algorithm 
deciding what you're writing? So.

Ilana (00:39:24):
I would say it's the algorithm. [Athena laughs]

Athena (00:39:26):
So then like right, how much of us is like becoming a robot [Ilana agrees] or you know, algorithm that is 
not in our brains. If we have outsourced a lot of things to our devices,

Ilana (00:39:42):
Well, it's definitely the early part of the fusion process for sure. [Athena laughs] It's right there. But you 
know, when you think about it that it's some tech bro and you know, San Francisco that's writing this 
algorithm, that makes me uneasy too. Like who the hell is he to be telling me "Thanks! Got the email, 
exclamation point!" right? [Athena laughs] Like what? I didn't write that. That is not, it's not my voice.

Athena (00:40:07):
But then if they can like scan all your emails and figure out responses that would be in your voice then?

Ilana (00:40:14):
Yeah.

Athena (00:40:14):
Is that better or worse?

Ilana (00:40:15):
Well, I think that [Athena laughs] they're all, it's probably worse. I mean they, I think they are capitalizing 
on the fact that we like the path of least resistance for the most part. I mean, I've toyed with the idea for 
sure of like getting a Tor browser. My husband uses that. Sometimes I'm getting this email, I don't 
remember the name of it, but it's a server that's like totally private and you know, they, no spying, but 
you need to set it up then you need to email, you know, 500,000 people. They already have your old 
email account. You know, it's like switching from a big bank to a credit union in my dreams. I'm like, 
yeah, one day I'll get rid of Wells Fargo, those bastards. But oh gosh, what a pain in the ass.

Athena (00:41:08):
So, you know, the friction.

Ilana (00:41:13):
Right? So then we find ourselves kind of just gliding through being like, Hey, I'm all right with that. Not 
all right. With that there, I'm going to draw the line. So I guess we just draw, where do we draw the 
lines? Are we hypocrites if we, if we're a vegan but we still bank with Wells Fargo. [Athena laughs] I 
mean, I mean, [Ilana laughs] you know, I don't know.

Athena (00:41:36):
Yeah, well it is, it is hard to, you know, find the path through that like lets us have the benefits of 
technology and there are a lot, like there are so many amazing things that we can do [Ilana agrees] with 
our electronic devices and algorithms. I mean it is literally, you know, the power of information and 
decision making. Right? And so obviously we don't want to give all of that up and you know, go and live 
off the grid.

Ilana (00:42:09):
No.

Athena (00:42:09):
But then how do you take those things that are positive and keep them in your life or incorporate them 
in your life but -

Ilana (00:42:16):
Control. [Athena agrees] They need to be controlled. I mean, I love my phone for mostly for the utilities 
that I have on it. I have got a um, scope on my phone where it's like a view finder, that, that will show 
me what a shot looks like. It's a, it's an app. I mean, it was not cheap. It was probably, I don't remember, 
but, um, $20 or something, which I guess for apps is kind of-

Athena (00:42:48):
Pricey, yeah.

Ilana (00:42:48):
-but my gosh, now my phone is like this amazing view finder.

Athena (00:42:53):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:42:53):
And that's incredible to me. [Athena agrees] And I love that. And I've got this amazing weather app 
where, you know, it's like satellite mapping and so I don't know, we just find that and just maybe start 
thinking of the phone addiction as we would any other addiction. Like would you be shoveling, you 
know, hot fudge sundaes in your face 20 times a day? Probably not. Would you be drinking, you know, 
bottle of vodka 17 times a day? Probably not. You know, the bathroom check take on my vodka, but 
seriously, maybe we have to start thinking maybe we have to really start nurturing our mental health 
and our presence and our awareness the same way we would not eat like tons of junk food or we tried 
to get enough sleep or you know, I mean like really start thinking of the phone as a tool and not 
something that is just-

Athena (00:43:57):
It's like a comfort, like a, it's like a, you know, you pick it up and the moment you pick it up you are no 
longer having to deal with whatever is going on for you and you're just like, oh, the screen is shining 
back at me.

Ilana (00:44:15):
Right. Like, why would we be so bored? It's so easily as a, as a people, why? And isn't it okay to be 
bored? Isn't it okay to just, just even be uneasy? Like just like if we just stopped sooner. Okay. Yeah. 
What am I gonna think right now? What am I going to do? [Athena laughs] Just like let that just course 
through us. Just, you know, just take a breath I think. I think if more people, maybe just, and I'm not 
saying I have all the answers, I pick up my phone a hell of a lot too. But what I try to do just sometimes 
just take a breath. And that's almost enough to just say, okay, don't have to give into this craving right 
now. Yeah. I don't have to. [Athena agrees]

Athena (00:45:06):
And that becomes scary thinking about like, if kids are growing up without learning how to regulate that 
and they have the access to that immediate gratification of the screen all the time. Like I'm, I mean, I'm 
guessing it's harder to stop with that, you know, that like knowledge that, you know, internalized sense 
that like, it can be okay to be by yourself and without a screen for-

Ilana (00:45:39):
And just to teach kids, um, other ways to self-soothe, you know, um, that they don't need the validation 
of a like on social media that they don't need to see what's happening right now. It's not soothing. It 
actually causes grief and depression, you know, over time and the comparing and stuff, you know, that 
taking a walk, having some, having a tea, take a bath. I mean, you know, obviously scaled to kids of 
different ages, but, um, yeah, because I, I feel like there's, um, a potential to obliterate the moment 
with, with something that's out there and then we're robbing ourselves actually of being present and of 
just being in the world.

Athena (00:46:39):
Yeah. It's almost like you, you take FOMO, right? Fear of missing out and you turn it on its head. So it's 
like, well, you know, maybe it's not so much the fear of missing out of like something out there, but it's 
the fear of like missing out on the moment that you're actually in. [Ilana agrees] The present that you 
are occupying right now.

Ilana (00:47:00):
Yeah, absolutely. And I also say, I don't know what happened, where people equated like having lots of 
outside approval was something that they needed. Um, you know, I feel like there's a bit of a tyranny of 
numbers that's happening that people say, Oh, well I only got this much attention that these many likes 
and that's enough. And it's like, okay, now when I'm in the desert and there're blooms, I'll take a picture 
of my child with, you know, in the desert and send it to maybe the two or three people that I know 
actually. Truly. That would love to see pictures of him.

Athena (00:47:48):
Yeah. Right.

Ilana (00:47:48):
You know, and that's really satisfying. That's enough. There was a time not long ago where that picture 
would have gone up on a site where I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of friends, you know?

Athena (00:48:04):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:48:05):
That was on Facebook and I really wanted everyone to see that. So why, you know, what, what 
happened? I mean is it just as simple as like, we, so many people want to get to be famous. I mean, I 
don't know. I don't know. There's like a shift like, well-

Athena (00:48:22):
Yeah, well, you know, as humans like we are inherently really social and it's easy to like get us pulled 
into sort of status competition. Right. And like, you know who's the best and who gets the most and like 
it's just easy to like get sucked into that. [Ilana agrees] And I think, you know, Facebook and a lot of the 
other platforms they have, you know, both of those things they have like they're the channel where 
your friends are. Um, so that whole like the social approval thing, like you can get that there and you 
know, you can see how much other people's stuff is liked and feel competitive. You know, about who 
has more sponsors or followed more.

Ilana (00:49:07):
But it's a lie. But it's all a lie. That's the thing. I mean it's not all a lie, but a good chunk of it is, I mean, I 
know this couple, this, you know, these two women: married, friends, and have a baby and all that and 
they're posting photos, love, oh, we love each other. I mean just like the sappiest, most beautiful 
pictures of the three of them. And then I find out they had this like bitter, horrible breakup, divorce, 
custody battle while they're still posting these photos.
Athena (00:49:39):
Wow.

Ilana (00:49:39):
So when I heard that, I was like, well I, that is like something so beyond my comprehension in terms of 
like living a life in public. [Athena agrees] You know, I just don't, I don't know. I mean, I guess I should 
probably also say one reason I did also fall away from all that and quit was because I was getting, I got 
some bad attention from a very sick person who threatened me and my family.

Athena (00:50:11):
Oh my gosh.

Ilana (00:50:13):
Um, through Facebook and he had seen some of my films and it was someone we were once friends 
with, but you know, we had to stop seeing him obviously, but he tracked me down in many ways and 
like kept creating fake profiles and yeah. And it-

Athena (00:50:33):
Wow that's creepy.

Ilana (00:50:34):
It was so creepy and it just, um, I mean I would've stopped anyway, but that really underscored it in the 
sense of, um, just feeling like, well, what am I doing? Why, why would I put my picture of my kid up if 
there's a person out there [Athena agrees] that's like knows who we are and you know, and I think of, 
you know, there are a lot of vulnerable people out there, you know, who are probably off it for the same 
reason.

Athena (00:51:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have a, um, an opinion or a perspective on like all of the like YouTubeing? Like 
the YouTubers, like the people who-

Ilana (00:51:21):
I don't, I don't know. I mean, only in the sense that I, I see that my kids like watching people play video 
games and talk about them, which is just like a whole other level that they like to play video games. But 
they also really like to watch people have massive commentary and some of these kids or young adults. 
They've got like a million or so followers and they're making so much money on their YouTube ads. So I 
don't know, I find it funny and ridiculous, but again, YouTube with their algorithms, they, they show you 
increasingly crazy stuff. Like when Apollo was um, young, he was into Thomas the tank engine and, uh, 
be like, oh, Apollo, what are you watching? And you, you know, you'd see top him hat and the train and 
the blue face. And then I'd go into the kitchen, then I'd come back later and if just a few minutes he's 
watching a live video of a train intersecting, smashing a car and someone dying. And I was like-

Athena (00:52:29):
What?

Ilana (00:52:29):
And I was like, oh boy. Okay. Yeah. And then for Mac the other day said that, you know, it was like 
leading him to some, you know, white supremacist videos like, because he had typed in some sort of, 
you know, Tae Kwon Do thing or something, but it was just like two leaps away from the worst possible 
thing to like get the viewer pumped up. So, you know, there's the other algorithm, but in terms of the 
people, the YouTube stars, I, I don't have enough bandwidth for that.

Athena (00:53:07):
Yeah.

Ilana (00:53:07):
Why? What do you think?

Athena (00:53:08):
I don't know. I mean, to me it's interesting because like on one hand you have all these people who, you 
know, are good performers in one way or another, right. But like now have a way of, you know, reaching 
people and people I think are wanting a sort of more of like a personal connection and in a way, you 
know, they're getting that from these YouTube channels. But then on the other hand, like, you know, 
basically all these people who are doing this, they're creating content so that YouTube can make money 
off of the ads. Right? I mean they're, they're getting money for the ad, the, you know, people who are 
producing the content and getting money for the ads. Right. But YouTube is getting their cut of that too. 
And YouTube is really benefiting from the content that is being produced. I mean, sort of for free. I 
mean I know they get ad revenues, but there are a lot of people who are producing content and not 
getting anything. So I don't know, it just seems like there's a whole different world of like how content is 
getting made and consumed.

Ilana (00:54:17):
Definitely. And it's very personal and people are blogging their personal lives and their stories and, and, 
and I wonder, it's like where did the technology bring that out in people or was it always something we 
would just needed to do? And once the technology appeared for like finally we get to, yeah-

Athena (00:54:38):
Well I think, you know, people do have a deep need to connect to each other and hear each other's 
voices [Ilana agrees], see each other's faces talking and like-

Ilana (00:54:46):
Oh, I think it can be really positive, especially if you've liked some role models or like people who are 
say, have like a, you know, a positive coming out story that can really help a kid who's lonely and doesn't 
know what to do. Um, I think there, I mean, I've watched YouTube videos on how to like, you know, fix 
my voltage regulator.

Athena (00:55:10):
It's amazing, right? [Ilana agrees] All of that information is available online. Like you can, I mean, fix 
everything right with a four minute YouTube video. It's kind of astounding.

Ilana (00:55:22):
No, it's amazing. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I see here in Hollywood, there is, um, so many people 
who, who still come to this town to, to make it big, and now there's this apartment building not far from 
here. 1600 fine. Actually that's filled with YouTube stars.

Athena (00:55:44):
Really?

Ilana (00:55:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Like you should go check it out. They all like live there.

Athena (00:55:49):
They just all flock there?

Ilana (00:55:50):
Yeah, I'm not so sure. There might be some agency that, you know there's some agencies that represent 
these people now cause they make a lot of money. So maybe just they put them there. They have but, 
but the point is it's like it's just another layer of, of the business now-

Athena (00:56:09):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:56:09):
-that's you know, but most of them probably want like their own actual TV show or movie. Would leave 
YouTube in a hot second if that offer came around.

Athena (00:56:23):
Hmm. Yeah. It's interesting. There are like I heard from a friend of mine who went to a, um, I think it was 
a junior high for like a career day and she's a professor and you know, she came to, you know like talk 
about being a professor.

Ilana (00:56:38):
Yeah. [Ilana laughs]

Athena (00:56:38):
All the kids wanted to talk about was like how when they grow up they want to be a YouTuber and an 
influencer and like that. That's like what they're aspiring to. And-

Ilana (00:56:52):
How old were they?

Athena (00:56:53):
I think they were in middle school.

Ilana (00:56:55):
Oh, hopefully they'll grow out of that. [Athena agrees] That's an influencer. Yeah. I don't even know how 
those people get away with it. I thought you had to announce it. You're making an advertisement, but 
they, I don't know why people trust influencers if they're getting paid to endorse a product that they, 
yeah.

Athena (00:57:13):
Well, apparently, um, influencers like in order to get to the point where you're getting paid, like, I mean, 
you have to go through a long time where you're not getting paid. You're just, maybe you get some free 
stuff or you get a free ticket-

Ilana (00:57:28):
Right

Athena (00:57:29):
Yeah. And you cultivate your following and-

Ilana (00:57:32):
Yeah. There's some article, there’s resorts down all over the world are like complaining how so many 
people are calling them, asking them for free rooms, claiming their influencers-

Athena (00:57:43):
Wow.

Ilana (00:57:43):
People with just like, you know, like a thousand people following them. That's not enough. You're not 
getting a free room.

Athena (00:57:52):
Wow. Yeah. And how many of them are bots actually, right? Like you don't know.

Ilana (00:57:56):
Right, exactly. Yeah. Bots for sure.

Athena (00:57:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So, um, can you tell us a little bit about your new movie?

Ilana (00:58:06):
Sure. Yeah. Um, well, it's called Perception. It's a psychological thriller and it involves a, uh, it's about a 
real estate developer who is trying to reconnect with his dead wife and he encounters a storefront 
psychic, um, because he's in a strip mall that he's, uh, redeveloping. So knocking it down and they have a 
chance encounter and, uh, then they get involved, um, once she starts doing a reading for him. So it's 
supernatural, spooky that I'm very much into, um, alternate realities and presenting, um, work that 
deals with more than we can see on a daily basis.
Athena (00:58:59):
Things that you don't usually have coming into your visual field like you like to put them on a screen. I 
mean, and then-

Ilana (00:59:07):
Yeah, and, and you know, and just, I'm fascinated with, um, the different levels of perception. Well, the 
name is Perception, but that, that we all have them and how we can actually decide how big or small we 
want our world to be based on our beliefs.
Athena (00:59:32):
Hmm.

Ilana (00:59:32):
And, um, you know, there's some people that truly believe they, that um, there are clairvoyants, that 
there are psychics, that there are people who have the ability to, to tell the future to, you know, intuit 
certain things or reach a spirit world. And there's some people who are just absolutely debunk that. And 
I do believe that there is a spectrum of talents and gifts that we humans have. And I do believe that 
psychic power is just as an umbrella is something that can be gifted down as well as, uh, nurtured and 
brought through. But I also know for a fact that like 95% of the people out there who claim they are, are 
probably not and they just might have like really good intuition or they just might really know how to 
talk to people. So I wanted to make a film where we explore both sides where we could see where we 
could present it and let the people at the audience come with their own very strong beliefs. Because 
usually people have some sort of strong feeling about the topic and then figure out what we're trying to 
do here with the film.

Athena (01:00:51):
Hmm. So that, that's interesting. And, um, the, this whole question of like, you know, what really does it 
mean when someone like claims to be psychic or like says that they, you know, have the ability to see 
things or perceive things that other people don't perceive? [Ilana agrees] And I think, uh, I mean there is 
just a really interesting question of like, you know, if you, if you posit that there's just a range of 
perceptual abilities that, that people have and some people are able to pick up on more things than 
others or integrate your information than others, then it seems like there's a lot of things that could look 
like clairvoyance.

Ilana (01:01:34):
There is!

Athena (01:01:34):
But there it's really just about taking information from different places and bringing it together.

Ilana (01:01:40):
Absolutely.

Athena (01:01:41):
But other people might not believe-

Ilana (01:01:41):
And that ties back into being present and being in the moment and, and listening. People take it, take it 
for granted. I mean, it's, it's one of the most important skills we have as, as humans, as communicators, 
is to actually listen to what someone else is saying. And I think, um, I, I know we actually have someone 
who is an actual energy reader and he plays himself in the film and I've had done energy readings with 
him and it's a skill that he has developed over the past 25 years and he does it.

Athena (01:02:20):
What does that mean exactly to be an energy reader?
Ilana (01:02:22):
Sure. Well, it means that he is seeing he's, he's basically seeing you on an energetic level in the sense of, 
you know, I think he sees a lot in colors. Um, whilst he doesn't use the word chakra and he's also like 
super anti new-age-y. He's just so down to earth and-

Athena (01:02:51):
Alright. [Athena laughs].

Ilana (01:02:51):
Anyway. Um, I mean, I don't want to-

Athena (01:02:54):
So you have a non-new-age-y person [Ilana agrees] who does energy reading.

Ilana (01:02:59):
Yes.

Athena (01:02:59):
And has been-

Ilana (01:03:00):
And he plays a twisted version of himself in the film.

Athena (01:03:03):
Nice.

Ilana (01:03:03):
So he plays more of a scammer and all that.

Athena (01:03:07):
Alright.

Ilana (01:03:07):
So not that, but, but so just this idea that, you know, um, here, okay, you walk into a room at a party, 
right? Let's say it's like a small party. Let's say it's 15 people. You walk in and there are 15 people in a 
room, you pretty much immediately pick up on the vibe of the room. Like what's happening in this 
room? [Athena agrees] Is it filled with like serious, good natured conversations where there's like good 
witty repartee [Athena laughs] and you know like some chuckles and you're like, okay, this is a room I 
want to be in. Or was there some like kind of resentment going on? Maybe there's just like, people are 
really awkward, they're standing, you feel it. [Athena agrees] You might not even like hear anything but 
like you feel the energy of the room, right? [Athena agrees] Or like a tense board meeting or you know, 
right. You've been in those situations where you just feel it. So that's what he's honed. But he does it on 
an individual level. He feels, he knows. So like he knows if you're dealing with some relationship issue or 
because there's something that you're emitting that's that it's coming out of the heart. You really have 
to let him explain this. But this is my, just as someone who's been "read by him," so, so I know it's 
possible and I know myself that when I'm in a, you know, in a zone, in a good zone, maybe creative ideas 
are gonna come more and I'm walking outside and out of the corner of my eye I'll see my dad walk down 
the street. My dad's been, my dad's been dead for 11 years, you know, and I'll see him and I'll say, okay, 
logically that's not my dad.

Athena (01:05:06):
But your brain is taking these ambiguous cues and kind of interpreting it [Ilana agrees] as someone 
who's similar height or has a gate or whatever.

Ilana (01:05:16):
But then also like, why is my dad appearing to me now? Like is there a message? Like, am I like, what's 
the message? Maybe it's time for me to ask a question, [Athena agrees] So I'll just ask him a question, 
you know, or I'll just say hi or I'll cry or you know, I mean, any number of things. So it's like, that's what I 
mean. If we just stop and we're like, what's around me? What's happening? It's not all solid. It's not all 
green couch, wood window. Like I feel these things, I see these things. But you know, what's this space 
between you and me right here? Like if I look hard enough, it almost starts to kind of look like TV static a 
little.

Athena (01:05:59):
Yeah. Well, and that's, I mean our, it's because our brains are part of right. Like everything we see and 
we touch and we interact with, like we're seeing our brain's interpretation of that and that means that 
we are bringing things to the table every time [Ilana agrees] we have any perceptual event or not 
bringing things to the table.

Ilana (01:06:19):
Right. Like so true. Yeah, bring everything to the table. Yeah. I mean, you know, you, you live in Arizona, 
so you obviously have great nights skies. And in my time, the year I spent writing in Arizona in the 
Northern desert is writing a science fiction film there. And I would lay outside and um, let my eyes adjust 
and then wait, and then I would start seeing things in that sky that you don't just see if you're like, oh 
yeah, look, yeah, I mean it would start filling up. [Athena agrees] It would start filling up with stars and 
then I'd see shooting stars and I'd see red comments with orange tails and I'd see and I was like, was 
that a UFO? I understand why people see those things now. [Both laugh] I understand. Yeah.

Athena (01:07:09):
Yeah. Well, and you know, if there are things that are important to us and things from the past that are 
important to us, like you know, seeing your dad or you want to believe that there's life out there, [Ilana 
agrees] you know, for one reason or another. Yeah. Then our brain projects those things [Ilana agrees] 
onto what the information that's coming in, right?
Ilana (01:07:30):
Right.

Athena (01:07:31):
Like, like every stage of our perception are like there are, you know, sort of these decisions being made 
[Ilana agrees] about how it's going to get interpreted and depending what our priors are going in, what 
we think we're going to see or where we are emotionally. Like it changes.

Ilana (01:07:47):
Totally where we are emotionally-

Athena (01:07:50):
And what actually gets to our brain in terms of the neural signals.

Ilana (01:07:54):
Exactly. And I don't like when people shut that down. I don't like when other people say there’s no such 
thing as ghosts or UFOs or it's like, okay, you know, I get it. Not everything that, that, you know, you 
can't always expect to have everything be scientifically proven. I mean, I love hearing explanations from 
physicists that, you know, we can't be alone in the universe. You know, mathematically they'll say we 
can't be so, but, but you know, and all the funny stuff in the paranormal shows where the ghost hunters 
or whatever, you know, I mean that's all it's- but I, I guess it's, it's bigger than that. It's bigger than like 
refuting someone claiming they see a ghost or UFO or believe they can see the future, whatever. 
Because to that person it's real and it's meaningful and that makes their world bigger.

Athena (01:08:58):
Hmm.

Ilana (01:08:58):
And I'm all about making our worlds bigger and not smaller because when our worlds are bigger, when 
we're open to stuff that we can't necessarily see or touch or smell, um, I think that that leads to 
compassion and understanding.

Athena (01:09:18):
So sort of just being more open to the possibility of the world of [Ilana agrees] not just our world, but 
everything that was possible.
Ilana (01:09:25):
And also be open to what other people believe. Like, let that person, as long as it's not hurting anyone 
else. That's the main thing. [Athena agrees] Like if it's someone's fanatic religion where they believe 
something and believe in murdering people or oppressing people, I'm not down with that. But if it's like, 
okay, you believe that, you know, this boat landed came down with the savior and whatever, you know, 
believe it, fine. Or if you believe certain things, I'm, who am I to say that what you're believing is not 
right? I don't know. I mean it ties into a bit with my mother who has, er, had, um, Alzheimers, you know, 
she believed very much what was happening to her on a daily basis. So she'd be present and talk with 
me and you know, we'd be like, how's your lunch? How's the tuna salad sandwich and shit. You know, 
it's delicious. It's lovely. I love this meal. And she said, well, you know, Joyce Joyce, she really, she 
messed up with the party the other night because, you know, I told her not to serve the chicken and you 
know, Joyce has been dead for 20 years. There was no party last night, you know, so, but she was there-

Athena (01:10:47):
Something was getting aggravated in her memories and so-

Ilana (01:10:50):
She believed that that party happened last night and she was telling me, so it took me many months to 
understand that the best way to deal with this was to talk as if that really happened and just be like, 
yeah, that must've been really awkward that she asked you to serve the chicken, you know? And then 
she didn't.

Athena (01:11:12):
Meet her where she is.

Ilana (01:11:14):
Meet her where she is.

Athena (01:11:14):
You know that that is a world that is of her own creation and she's the only one in it at that moment. 
You choose to go in there with her instead of trying to drag her.

Ilana (01:11:28):
Absolutely. And, you know, she actually has been the inspiration for, um, several of my films. And, you 
know, because I realized that what my mother was doing was time traveling and she would genuinely 
leave the moment and say, be back at MoMA volunteering. And she'd be like, I can't talk right now 
because I have to get back to the desk.

Athena (01:11:58):
Interesting. 

Ilana (01:11:58):
But meanwhile, we were in her living room in her apartment. She hadn't worked in MoMA for six 
months or eight months. And I was like, okay, well mom, I talked to your boss and she gave you the 
afternoon off so we can have lunch together. And she goes, oh, you did? Good. Okay, let's go. So, you 
know, but she was there. She was time traveling six months ago or years, decades. So I found that really 
inspirational in the sense that now I have, I have characters in Perception. Um, our female lead's 
mother, uh, who was a psychic, kind of has Alzheimer's basically, but it's never really addressed. And it's 
not clear whether it was the psychic powers that kind of made her, but she floats in and out of time. And 
in my science fiction films as well, the main character's doing the same thing because I think it's really 
fascinating to explore that. As you know, it's not necessarily a deficiency. If it's, if it makes them 
unpleasant, sad, then it's terrible. But if they're really just doing okay, then it's like, all right, well they're 
just in 1985 right now. You know? But that's okay too. Yeah.

Athena (01:13:24):
Yeah, I mean it sounds like you're almost sort of entering into the world and then like co-creating it. Like 
you're like, okay, well let's tell a story together and you're, you're playing this part where you called the 
Boss right-

Ilana (01:13:40):
Absolutely.

Athena (01:13:40):
And creating a new reality together.

Ilana (01:13:43):
And, exactly. And you know, some, some people close to us would say, oh, well that's not, you know, 
that's not the old Mitch, you know, she's not really herself anymore. I was like, well, you know, she's just 
changing and that's why, you know, at her Memorial, I wanted to talk about the last, um, the last year 
basically. Whereas everyone, you know, talked about the past that which is great because, but I was 
here, I was the one here with her in LA the last two years, um, you know, several times a week. So I saw 
it and I was like, I'm not going to leave out this part of her life because her memory is gone in the sense 
of any sort of linear progression, but her memory is fully intact. If she could remember, you know, a 
lunch or a tennis state she had in 1992 with- [Athena agrees] [Ilana laughs] Like that's interesting. Okay.

Athena (01:14:48):
Yeah. Things are just a little bit scrambled or something.

Ilana (01:14:50):
Yeah, right. Scrambled. Totally.

Athena (01:14:55):
But that doesn't mean that there aren't pieces that you can’t still connect from and weave together and 
you know, still be together in a meaningful way.

Ilana (01:15:05):
Right. And she always knew me. That was a consistent, the boys were, you know, a constant. Yeah.

Athena (01:15:13):
Well that's lucky too. Right? Because that is not always the case.

Ilana (01:15:16):
It's not, no, definitely not. So that was lucky. It was a little gift, right? Yeah. I mean she, I could only 
imagine, I think, I think the computer thing came, came along just late enough cause she, uh, at the 
beginning of the, her mild cognitive impairment, um, I had gotten her a computer, just a big, big old 
iMac and she had successfully done email for about a year and she did the MoMA thing and, and the 
volunteering. And it was all going really well until one day I came to the apartment and everything was 
unplugged. The computer was like on the floor, covered with, um, a tablecloth. And I was like, hey, 
what's going on with the computer there? She goes, there's someone who's figured out who I am and 
he's asking for money and I, I, I can't, I can't deal with it. I'm, I'm really scared he's going to, he's going to 
be asking for the bank account, which means he probably has the bank account. So it was a, it was a 
traditional, uh, phishing scammy email probably from the Nigerian Prince who asked for the, you know, 
your typical one. And it, it just totally short wired her brain. She just was like, I cannot ever look at that 
thing again. It freaked her out.

Athena (01:16:41):
But you know what, like that's kind of amazing that because she in a way had a level of meta awareness, 
right. Like this thing that is happening is really dangerous to me and that, you know, maybe I don't-
Ilana (01:16:56):
It was really good in a way.

Athena (01:16:57):
Yeah.

Ilana (01:16:58):
She survived. Right. So I was like, yeah, cause it's true. I mean it's true. She could have easily just been 
like, oh poor man, he needs help. Or hey, I won the lottery or-

Athena (01:17:11):
Right. Yeah. But she was able to recognize it. Something was really wrong.

Ilana (01:17:17):
Yeah she was.

Athena (01:17:18):
What was going on and then unplug it and put it on the floor.

Ilana (01:17:21):
And cover it. [Both laugh] So that was it. It was done. [Athena agrees] There was no more email after 
that. It was like all done. And you know, I assured her he wasn't coming after us, but yeah, no, she got 
out of that. I mean, my, my friend Lara, her mother had, and she's still alive and she is really checked out 
and uh, she got horribly scammed, um, by what happened was these people who work at pharmacies, 
some in her neighborhood, they sell information on who's getting dementia medication.

Athena (01:17:59):
No way.

Ilana (01:18:00):
Yes, they do. And they, she became a target and mail, hard mail, because she didn't ever do the 
computer and um, got scammed out of several thousand dollars. Yeah.

Athena (01:18:15):
I hadn't even thought about that. It's so dark.

Ilana (01:18:17):
It's so dark. It's so dark that someone, the very most vulnerable people. [Athena agrees] And uh, yeah, I, 
I don't know. So that's, those are Satan's children, when I hear stuff like that-

Athena (01:18:34):
You know, looking for the most vulnerable people. Try to manipulate them. I mean, that's like, you 
know, zombification horribleness. Right?

Ilana (01:18:44):
And, and, and just, it's, it is zombification and just this, what must be the mindset of someone who 
thinks that that's okay. It is zombification. It's like, I'm out for myself. It's a dog eat dog world. I'm gonna, 
you know, I'm gonna bite your throat before you can bite mine [Athena agrees] Right. And I'd get paid 
like garbage at this job. And resentful and I don't know. [Athena agrees] I'm not at, sounds like we're 
making excuses for them, but yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. But.

Athena (01:19:20):
So I mean, that's awesome though for like going back to your film and how, you know, this sort of 
journey with Mitch played a role in like the characters and in a way it's also like a testament to this thing 
you're talking about earlier, just like being open to what is happening in your life. And like, right. You let 
that kind of come in and affect you and then affect your art and manifest now in this film that has a 
whole other dimension to it. That's true there-

Ilana (01:19:55):
Yeah. No, it's, that is, I'm grateful for that. And um, the, there are a couple of scenes that people were 
like, that's, that seems really well written. The mother daughter thing. I was like, well, thank you. [Both 
laugh] That came from a very special place. But, um, yeah, I mean, she's there, she's there. It's, um, 
yeah. I don't know. I mean, grief and mourning, it's, it's, it's so personal and um, but it's also something 
we all experience or will experience. Yeah. So in a way, it's also something that needs to be shared.

Athena (01:20:41):
Yeah. Yeah. This, I'm not sure how this sounds, but I feel like it's something that we'll all experience if 
we're lucky. right? [Ilana agrees] Because like to grieve, you have to have a deep connection, right? You 
have to have that and yeah, if you do have, you know, deep connections, then there will be grief and 
there will be, you know, a reckoning and a recalibration and like all of what comes along with and trying 
to, you know, reincorporate into your own life when that person is gone. But there are also these kinds 
of like hidden gifts in those jars too. Right?

Ilana (01:21:32):
There are hidden gifts. Yeah. Not, they don't know it was revealed to themselves so, so well, but yeah, 
it's, um, I dunno, I, I feel like I'm, I'm very much aware of when, um, I need to fall into that zombified 
state of that, just like dead state. It's usually, it has to do with feeling sad and not really wanting to fully 
experience that. And just to, and I say I'm going to just binge some Scandinavian noir, [Athena laughs] 
you know, detective noir stuff. Like right now, and I've got lots of Scandinavian detective shows that I 
like watching, [Athena laughs] you know, but for me, I'm sorry, I'm going to just wallow in it. And so I 
don't know. I mean, I want to be okay with that. I want that to not be a part of this feeling that I'm just, 
we're being taken over like I want to be. I like being at a point now where I can do that, where I can say, 
okay, I'm gonna watch, you know, three Netflix shows in a row because that's what I need to do right 
now. Then I'm going to put the computer away, then I'm going to do the dishes, then I'm going to write, 
then I'm going to work out. Then I'm going to be with my kids. I mean, you know, and just be okay to be 
part of our life, right. Not be consumed by that.

Athena (01:23:06):
So completely zombified by-

Ilana (01:23:09):
Right.

Athena (01:23:09):
And, and we do have a need sometimes to just like be distracted from things [Ilana agrees] and 
somehow that, you know, very easily just gets turned into like you've been watching for four and a half 
hours and then the next one is auto-playing and you're like, whoa. And then it's already started and 
you're like, [Athena laughs] And it's hard to push stop.

Ilana (01:23:30):
Right, might as well just watch it. [Athena laughs] And then, you know, and it's also like, I feel like for me 
personally, that is still better than, um, smoking a joint or having glass of wine or two or whatever, just, 
yeah, it's okay. There's scales, you know, there's-

Athena (01:23:49):
It's choose your poison.

Ilana (01:23:50):
Yeah, [Athena laughs] you know, but just be, be, you know, and I'm not judging people who do have a 
glass of wine that's, you know, whatever they need to do that, but to be aware of it and to not, you 
know, not let it take over you not let a habit. Once something becomes a habit, I think we've lost some 
of our humanity in some control and we're just like, yeah. On autopilot. Like you said, it's like autoplay. 
Right?

Athena (01:24:23):
But I personally enjoy having a glass of wine in the evening. But for me it's like, I like, I enjoy it and I 
savor it and it's like I'm, I try to be intentional [Ilana agrees] about it. So.

Ilana (01:24:41):
Then that works. That works because you're, you're not downing a bottle a night. I mean it's like [Ilana 
laughs].

Athena (01:24:48):
Right, right.

Ilana (01:24:49):
Or compulsively or would you freak out if there wasn't wine?
Athena (01:24:53):
No, I just like how it tastes with food and-

Ilana (01:24:56):
So, you know, they're different. They're different levels here that we're talking about and everyone has 
to come to their own understanding of what's controlling them versus what they control for, like how is 
it serving you, serving you, and making you feel good, relaxed, and it's, you're actually okay then. Um, 
because you're thinking about it. See, I was starting to think about it a lot and think about not having it. 
So it became exhausting. Like the moderating became exhausting. So it was occupying so much space. 
So it's like, but then there are people who it's like you don't keep track of how often. Say you, uh, eat 
popcorn or corn on the cob or a banana. Like, oh, I've had two bananas today, I can't have another 
banana or whatever. So if it's like something that's taking over, like a lot of people with alcohol, it's just, 
they're not really thinking about it that much. [Athena agrees] But with pot and booze to try to, for me 
to try to moderate it was uh, it was, um, much like Facebook, I just moderate. So quitting was just so 
much easier-

Athena (01:26:12):
Hmm.

Ilana (01:26:12):
-so much easier. It's like I don't think about it ever.

Athena (01:26:15):
Yeah. That's interesting. [Ilana agrees] Well no, it kind of brings up this issue of like, you know, yes, what 
we need to do is figure out like is what we're doing actually like is that our goal? Like do we want that, 
um, and but it can be really hard to distinguish between like, you know, is this thing consistent with my 
goals and what I really want versus like I'm craving this right now? Right? [Ilana agrees] Like those are 
really different kinds of things. Like, you know, is it a compulsion or is it something where you can be 
reflective and say, yes, this is what I'm choosing cause it's helping me [Ilana agrees] to meet my goals or 
enjoy this next hour of my life or you know, whatever.
Ilana (01:26:57):
Goals are important.

Athena (01:26:58):
It is that you're trying to accomplish and just like stop and think like is what I'm doing right now actually 
[Ilana agrees] what I am wanting at a deep level?
Ilana (01:27:10):
But, We also need to be kind to ourselves too when we slip and when we say aren't always moving 
towards [Athena agrees] our goals because I think that that can be, you know, recipe to berate 
ourselves.

Athena (01:27:26):
That's right. Yeah.

Ilana (01:27:27):
You know? Yeah. Yeah. But not every day can be a productive work day, I think.

Athena (01:27:34):
Yeah. I still like I'll go on my phone and be like, what am I doing? You know, like 45 minutes later I'm like 
still mindlessly scrolling.

Ilana (01:27:44):
And then it starts to hurt a little.

Athena (01:27:46):
Exactly. [Both laugh] Yeah. Yeah. You're like ugh. So, yeah, I do think that giving time to ourselves about 
it is really important because fact is there's so many things that are constantly vying for our attention 
and it can be hard to keep, I don't know, keep that, um, ability to like, you know, focus or constrain your 
attention so that it's only going on the things that you want it to go on. [Ilana agrees] It's hard to do that 
when lots of things are just coming at you. And so when the screens that you can potentially be paying 
attention to, it's hard to shut all that down.

Ilana (01:28:25):
Right! No, it really is. It is. Yeah.

Athena (01:28:29):
So I want to, do you have any sort of thoughts for like where things are likely to go with the future of all 
this? And it sounds like a little bit like, you know, you're at a point of sort of like some optimism that 
people are starting to wake up a little bit to this and be like, I need to do something. I need to, you 
know, this isn't okay for me, but you're, you're seeing that and.

Ilana (01:28:51):
I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it amongst people I know and the people I follow it and read. Um, but I don't 
know if for a representative sample, [Athena agrees] [Ilana laughs] honestly I think, cause you know, I 
did not grow up with a computer in my house and my sense of, well mom, how did you check your 
email? [Both laugh]

Athena (01:29:16):
Yeah.

Ilana (01:29:17):
Oh well, um, you know, I had a landline, um, like a real landline, not these fake internet service provider, 
land lines that go out if the power goes out like good old mob bell. So, um, you know, I think my, my 
friends and I were totally into tech. We use it for our work and the whole thing. But I feel like we might 
be like more willing to, you know, people in their forties, late thirties, forties, 50s are probably more 
willing to kind of step away and examine it. And because we also have kids that are like so into it, so 
we're probably like, this is scary shit. Excuse me. Sorry, I'm cursing.

Athena (01:30:09):
No actually, you can curse. I should have told you that at the beginning.

Ilana (01:30:10):
Was that that first curse? [Athena laughs] In the whole time? I think I said ass, too

Athena (01:30:15):
Well now you did. [Both laugh]

Ilana (01:30:18):
But, um, so yeah, I'm optimistic because I think this is also the generation that has a lot of power. 
[Athena agrees] And, um, yeah, I don't see how much more addicted people can get. I honestly don't see 
how.

Athena (01:30:39):
There's not much time in the day. Right.

Ilana (01:30:40):
Yeah. I don't, I don't see how much worse it can get. I mean, I see municipalities banning texting and 
driving, but I still see people texting and driving. So, you know, a lot of people are dead because of the 
stupid phone. [Athena agrees] It's horrible. Yeah. So I am, but I am optimistic because at least for myself, 
people I know, I feel like I've kind of broken free a bit.

Athena (01:31:09):
Mmm. Mmm.

Ilana (01:31:11):
But I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, maybe Facebook does have to be chopped up and 
maybe there has to be a new algorithms. Maybe Mark Zuckerberg could just walk away from his 
kabillions of dollars and say, you know, I think I'll just change this algorithm. Yeah.

Athena (01:31:27):
That the whole business model is built on. That's right.

Ilana (01:31:31):
Yeah. It is. But so what, I mean, how much money does someone need? I mean, I dunno, I feel like 
there's a realignment that's happening in society as a whole and it's ugly right now on it's, you know, 
there's so much nastiness and racism and greed. Um, but if we don't go the other way, if we don't 
become more present and more aware, then the world's going to end. And I personally can't believe 
that, I have to have hope. [Athena agrees] I do. I'm a very optimistic person and I really see the bright 
side of technology and that's why I'm so into what, uh, ASU, the center science and imagination does 
because it's all about an optimistic view of the future through positive sci-fi because, you know, as 
opposed to dystopias and Armageddon, and.
Athena (01:32:24):
Not that there's anything wrong with the zombie apocalypse. [Athena laughs]

Ilana (01:32:29):
No I love it as a cinema, you know, it's wonderful, but, but no, but just like, let's envision, let's start 
envisioning the upsides of this technology. I mean, how great is FaceTime that you get to, [Athena 
agrees] that's a beautiful thing.
Athena (01:32:43):
Yeah. And how, you know, how could we build a better platform for social media? Like what, what 
would that be [Ilana agrees] and can we make it right? I think it's a great challenge for this next 
generation to like create something that serves our interests.

Ilana (01:33:03):
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean I bet people would even pay, I bet people would pay $5 or a year or 
whatever a month to not have their privacy violated, psychological tests taken on them. Hopefully. 
Maybe not though. I don't know.

Athena (01:33:22):
I don't know either. But you know, I think there's also like a model for, you know, well what kind of a 
good is, you know, this social media platform and in a lot of ways it's a public good and so maybe there's 
some sort of a public funding model for something like that where, yeah.

Ilana (01:33:40):
No, that would be amazing. And I think, I don't know, they're just, I think being okay with being with 
yourself and being with people that you are in your immediate environment. Like be okay with not being 
enough some of the time. [Athena agrees] Like, that's, it's really okay in a way you're expanding your 
world, but by being with yourself and by just having a conversation with your neighbor or you know, 
taking a photo and sharing it with one person or even not sharing it at all and just sitting with it.
Athena (01:34:22):
Or even not taking a picture.

Ilana (01:34:23):
Or even not taking a picture. Exactly. And just thinking cause we don't know where that's going to lead 
us and that can be very expansive.

Athena (01:34:31):
Yeah. No, I like, I really like this idea that, you know, when we're on our screens, like we are missing out. 
Like the fear of missing out is real, but you're missing out on what is actually happening around you and 
the like amazing moments that you don't have because you're, you know, you're sucked into the screen 
and things-

Ilana (01:34:57):
And one I have noticed since I've moved here, which is very interesting at these parties I've gone to, um, 
people don't use their phones. Some of the ones that have like, um, VIPs, or some celebrities and I 
haven't been to any of like the super fancy Hollywood parties, but like people are just, they don't do it. 
And I find that very interesting.

Athena (01:35:22):
So there's like new norms.

Ilana (01:35:24):
A little bit. It would be like kind of considered uncool to take a picture of, in one of those places without, 
you want to be seen as kind of, I don't know what's the word? Like a hanger-on-er.

Athena (01:35:38):
Right.

Ilana (01:35:38):
Or gauche or something.

Athena (01:35:40):
Yeah it'd be kind of tacky. So.

Ilana (01:35:43):
I don't know. But then you know, all these celebrities, they post a million selfies. So it's just this very 
strange thing. I think there's, I think people are still trying to figure it out. But [Athena agrees] you know, 
it's, it's an interesting time, but I think we will find our balance. I'd like to think we'll find our balance.

Athena (01:36:07):
Yeah, I hope so. Well, Ilana, thank you so much.

Ilana (01:36:09):
Thank you!

Athena (01:36:09):
Thank you for sharing your brains. [Both laugh] With all of us

Ilana (01:36:11):
Any time.

Athena (01:36:14):
It was great to have you on the show.

Ilana (01:36:15):
I loved it. What a blast. Thank you.

Outro: (01:36:37):
[Psychological by Lemi]

Athena (01:37:36):
Zombified is a production of ASU and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. Thank you to the 
Department of Psychology, the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and the president's office at ASU, 
also to the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics. Thanks especially to all of the brains that help make this 
podcast. I'm talking about you Tal rom making our awesome sound. Neil Smith, our illustrator, Lemi, 
who is the creator of our song, Psychological, and the entire Z team at ASU.

Athena (01:38:07):
You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram or @ZombifiedPod and we are ZombifiedPodcast on 
Facebook. Our website is zombified.org and on our website you can find our merch. We have zombified 
stickers. You can stick them on your water bottle or your computer or wherever you want to stick them. 
We also have cool t-shirts, um, with the zombified head on the front and it says "Zombified" on the 
back. So go on our website, get yourself a t-shirt and support zombified. You can also join us on Patreon. 
We are Zombified on Patreon.

Athena (01:38:42):
At the end of every episode, I share my brains a little bit. And what I want to share today are some 
thoughts that I have had about how our screen time and our social interactions have changed since the 
COVID pandemic fell upon us. So we recorded this episode before the pandemic and at the end, Ilana 
and I talk a little bit about FOMO, the fear of missing out. And it used to be that if you were not with 
people doing things that you could have a fear of missing out. But now because all of us have to be self-
isolating for collective wellbeing, everyone is missing out. And in a way, because all of us are missing 
out. None of us are really missing out because there are no, you know, parties or get togethers or 
dinners or conferences even where people are getting together and talking and interacting with one 
another. So it's a really interesting time in that we maybe get a little bit more of a chance to be by 
ourselves, be with those who are closest to us, and take a little bit of a breather from always having that 
fear that we are missing out on something else out there. Thank you for listening to Zombified, your 
source for fresh brains.

Outro: (01:40:36):
[Psychological by Lemi].