Athena :                                               00:00:03                                          Have you been zombified by competition?

Dave:                                                  00:00:07                                          Oh yeah. Oh definitely. But I mean, a lot of times I'm terrible at most competitions, so, you know, but I [Athena: Mm] still hate losing, so yes. Yes. How about you?

Athena :                                               00:00:20                                          I mean, I've been zombified by competition in the sense that my inability to effectively compete at sports was a central feature of my grade school experience. So [Athena laughs]

Dave:                                                  00:00:33                                          Yeah, no, me too. I mean, I still remember getting cut from the basketball team as like a traumatic, it was like, uh, it was, that was it. I was like, well, so much for this being part of your identity. So yeah.

Athena :                                               00:00:43                                          See if I would have even gotten to the point to be on the basketball team so that I could have been cut. That [Dave: Oh] would have been just amazing. I would have been so happy.

Dave:                                                  00:00:51                                          No, they cut you right at the beginning. That's like the that's what happened? You got to try outs and then you get cut and then you're not [Athena: Oh] on the team. [Athena: You mean you weren't, you weren't on it] I didn't make the team.

Athena :                                               00:00:59                                          I see. I misunderstood. I thought you were like on it. And then they're like, nevermind. We made a mistake.

Dave:                                                  00:01:05                                          No, no. So-- [Dave and Athena laugh] Uh.

Dave:                                                  00:01:09                                          And now, now with my kids, you know, I'm, I'm trying to actually get them to not get cut. Uh, [Athena: Mm] and which I think we talk about a bit today. Um, but [Athena: We do] it's [Athena: Yeah] an interesting talk because we're talking to Scott Brooks and-

Athena :                                               00:01:24                                          Yeah. And Scott has an awesome perspective because he has been a professional athlete and a coach. And right now he is the associate director, the Global Sport Institute at ASU. And he's also an associate professor, um, in the T. Denny Stanford School of Social and Family Dynamics at ASU. So he really just has this amazing background ranging from, you know, being like there in the sports as a player, being a coach, being a parent of kids who are playing sports and then also having the academic background in sports. So, um, you know, he's, he just comes at it from all different angles.

Dave:                                                  00:02:04                                          Yeah. And it really shows like, even though I think, you know, it sounds like he made his high school basketball team, there's a real downside to it. Like it's the talking about the pressure and everything that kids put themselves through and parents put kids through and coaches put kids through. Um, so yeah. It's-

Athena :                                               00:02:24                                          Yeah. And, and it's complicated, right? Because there's so many great things about having the opportunity to compete in sports. So how do you kind of balance those things? How do you get the best things from competition without having the downsides? These are all things that we talk about [Dave: Yeah] in the show.

Dave:                                                  00:02:42                                          Yeah. Even as I listed all those downsides, I was still thinking, I still wish I made the team. So-

Athena :                                               00:02:50                                          [Athena and Dave laugh] Well, I'm your host, Athena Aktipis, psychology professor at ASU and chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave:                                                  00:02:57                                          And I am your co-host Dave Lundberg-Kenrick, media outreach program manager at ASU psych department and, uh, brain enthusiast. And, um-- [Athena: We love brains.] Yeah. So.

Athena :                                               00:03:10                                          And this fresh brain that we have this week, Scott Brooks, is just amazingly nutritious and delicious.

Dave:                                                  00:03:18                                          Yeah. And it's really fun. It's really, you know, it's a, it's a fun interview. So, uh, afterwards we should tell people about the conference and Channel Zed.

Athena :                                               00:03:29                                          Oh yes. [Dave: So] Please stay tuned after if you want to hear all about the amazing meeting that we're having, which is like a cross between an academic meeting and Burning Man or something. It's like not, not a typical academic meeting. We'd love to have you there. You can also check it out at zombiemed.org and we'll chat about it after [Dave: That's right] the show.

Dave:                                                  00:03:51                                          And also just so you know, if you register for the conference, you do get a shirt. So it's almost like you made a team. So -- [Athena laughs]

Athena:                                                00:03:57                                          Great point, Dave.

Dave:                                                  00:03:58                                          Yep.

Athena:                                                00:03:59                                          Alright. Let's hear from this week's fresh brain, Scott Brooks.

Intro:                                                 00:04:05                                          [Psychological by Lemi]

Athena:                                                00:04:37                                          Hey, Scott. [Scott: Hey] Thanks for being here.

Scott:                                                 00:04:44                                          Great. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Athena :                                               00:04:46                                          Could you start by introducing yourself in your own words for all of us?

Scott:                                                 00:04:49                                          Sure, sure. Uh, so I think of myself as a coach, um, probably parent first, um, coach, and then I'm an urban sociologist. And so I get to study, uh, coaching and coaching kids in particular while I'm doing sociology.

Athena:                                                00:05:07                                          That's pretty awesome.

Dave:                                                  00:05:09                                          How old are your kids? You said you're a parent-

Scott:                                                 00:05:10                                          22, 19 and 14.

Dave:                                                  00:05:14                                          Alright, good.

Athena:                                                00:05:14                                          Awesome. [Scott laughs]

Athena :                                               00:05:15                                          Yeah. So how did you get into what you study and do? Like what was your path to-

Scott:                                                 00:05:21                                          Yeah, so it it really started, um, you know, the long version is being an athlete and a frustrated athlete and it really, my life changed senior year of high school. Having played basketball at a very prominent, uh, high school in Northern California, in Oakland, um, under a coach who was one of the winningest coaches in California, state history and struggling. I was co-team captain senior year. We were one of the best teams in the state and didn't feel like I got a fair shake, felt like, uh, the other co-captain - he and I competed for the same position. And I thought there were racial dynamics at play that, uh, created some problems and I ended up quitting and that was a big deal because it was the first time that I took charge of my own decisions. So instead of my parents who had always told me, you stick things out, uh, I found it to be a situation that I could not get past and was not being my best self.

Scott:                                                 00:06:26                                          Um, wanted to, you know, get into physical altercations with my coach. I was [Athena: Hmm] that upset. Uh, I had some scholarship opportunities that went by the wayside, um, based on how he played me and my performance. And so it was a big decision to decide not to play. And that really kind of changed my life. After that, I felt like I, I didn't make, I didn't have my parents really helping me make any decisions from that point on. So that's at 17 or 18 and, [Athena: Wow] and then kind of [Athena: So] move forward. And that was my passion. How can I then help other kids to get better sporting experiences? And how can I help coaches and athletes really communicate? So that was, that was the beginning. And then the pursuit was, how do I do that? And that's [Athena: Yeah] how I went on to study and, you know, go to school and pursue studying in sport.

Athena:                                                00:07:17                                          That's awesome. And I mean, we're like, we're already talking about zombification--[Scott: Yeah, absolutely.] --like freeing yourself from zombification. [Scott: Yeah, yeah.] And so like, so for you, in terms of like looking at this much bigger picture [Scott: Yeah] of what's going on in youth sports [Scott: Mmhmm] and the pressures that, that kids have from their parents and their coaches. So, I mean, you had like an intimate [Scott: I did.] experience [Scott: I did.] with that.

Scott:                                                 00:07:45                                          It it took me- I estimate it was 10 to 12 years to get over my high school experience. [Athena: Wow] And so really I was zombified. It, it took over my head, uh, in many ways I still deal with it because basketball, as much as I love it, is not as much fun to play. And it really became, I've, I was in a situation where I could not play freely. Um, and that's what happens to many kids. Unfortunately in our current system, it's a pay for play model. You know, Time magazine said, I think it's three or four years ago, now that youth sports is an $18 billion industry. [Athena: Wow. Dave: Yeah] And so the way that it takes over, and it is no longer extracurricular, it hasn't been for probably 25 years or so. We continue to call it an extracurricular activity, but it is a curricular activity.

Scott:                                                 00:08:39                                          It really defines kids. We talk about athlete identity, sports have really become so important. Uh, and you can see whether we're talking about big town sports events and that amount of attention media gives to sport, it's front page. It is no longer simply you're resigned to a sports page. Now you'll get a LeBron James does something and it can make the front page [Athena: Um hmm] and like Simone Biles and all of these things have become more front page. So it's taken over our country's mind and that makes it more of a, it gives it more of an impression on young people's minds. Their parents are starting to think of them as athletes early on. And all of that zombification happens pretty early. And so when it doesn't go well, kids are often left wondering what happened and it changes their sense of self-worth and [Athena: Huh] whether they were competent, it can impact their relationship with their parents. Parents think they could have gotten more if they weren't lazy or if they had just done what I said, [Athena: Wow] and the like. So there's a lot of regrets that come out of it. And so, yeah, it really does take over.

Athena:                                                00:09:42                                          Yeah. So who are the important players in this zombification dynamic? [Scott: Yeah, yeah] You, you've, talked about the parents and the coaches, and then there's sort of the larger institutional [Scott: Absolutely] factors [Scott: Absolutely]. Like maybe just like starting with the most intimate influences and then like working your way out, like, like maybe parents first, like what happens there and if you feel comfortable, like sharing about your personal experience [Scott: Absolutely] and like what it [Scott: Absolutely] feels like to be zombified [Scott: Absolutely] in that way.

Scott:                                                 00:10:08                                          Yeah. So if I start there, I think that there are the stories Allen Iverson's mother says when he was born, she looked at his feet and hands and said, Oh, I have an athlete, he's a basketball player. [Athena: Hmm] Uh, you, you can go back to, uh, Marinovich, who was this kid who was called the Robo QB when he was in high school, his father had played for USC, then played shortly for the Raiders and then became an athletic trainer. And so it's not just myth, they talk about it. Uh, father was giving him massages when he was an infant to kind of get, to encourage his muscles to lengthen.

Athena:                                                00:10:47                                          Sports- Infant sports massage.

Scott:                                                 00:10:48                                          [Athena laughs] Exactly. Infant sports massage. [Athena laughs] and you know, really his father had said he, he looked at different kinds of lifting over in Europe and really started integrating, you know, in, in teaching his son, certain lifts to get him prepared. Uh, you know, as soon as he was able to walk, he, he had him doing football drills, uh, and and the like and Marinovich, his story is tragic. Although he, he panned out, he became the best quarterback in the country as a high schooler, uh, then went and played for USC, which was the dream. His father had it, even his grandfather had played at USC. He went on and made it to the pros and played for the Raiders like his father. I mean, everything was there. And he talks about his father had always said, one day, you're gonna play and you're gonna beat the New York Jets. [Athena: Mhmm] And that was because his father grew up with Joe Namath in this whole idea, the New York Jets, and Marinovich says when he actually got there and beat the New York Jets, that was the end, he literally like, that was the goal [Dave laughs].

Athena:                                                00:11:50                                          Oh my gosh.

Athena:                                                00:11:50                                          That was it and he and everything from there, went really bad. Now he had [Athena laughs] already started taking drugs in high school. He had a reputation amongst high schools when he was playing games. There's one particular basketball game where he's at the free throw line and they started talking about him. There was a chant that had something to do with him being a, you know, a, a stoner. And he talks about laughing. And then at, at a USC, he was, he was on coke. And so he wasn't always, you know, in his right mind, but he [Athena: Wow] still played. And so the drug use just got worse and worse. And then yeah, that Jets game was, he said the end, like he had accomplished everything that had kind of been in his head and he snapped and it just went terribly bad from there.

Dave:                                                  00:12:33                                          So, like, how did it go bad?

Scott:                                                 00:12:35                                          So the cocaine use and drug use just took over his life. [Dave: It took over] Yeah, it took over. So it was, it was a quick downward spiral. He was, he was out of the league, I think within two years from that time. [Dave: Wow] And having that been a huge early round draft pick and the likages. Yeah, it was, it was a steep, steep, steep fall. And so you get these parents who are thinking about their kids immediately as athletes who then go about training in different ways. Jennifer Capriati, uh, the tennis player back in the eighties, you know, she got burnt out. I mean, she was a teenager and was at the top of her game at 15, 16 years of age. And she talked about the pressure with her parents and, you know, those are the stories that, that go on and on just the parents and the pressure of wanting to live up to your parents' standards, not being able to separate your parent from their coaching or, and not always that they're your actual coach. It may just be that they're your, your, your mental coach and that's the role they often take, take [Athena: Right] you know and [Athena: and] not having that separation really kind of hurts that relationship.

Athena:                                                00:13:38                                          And with parents too, oftentimes like it's hard to separate yourself and your own goals [Scott: Absolutely] from your parents' goals, especially when you're young. Right. And then [Scott: Yep] if you grow up with a really intense relationship with your parents. [Scott: Right] I mean, part of adolescence is like actually figuring out what your own goals are. [Scott: Absolutely] And so [Scott: Absolutely] if you've been so invested in these goals that your parents have for you, [Scott: Yep] as you're going through adolescence, it must be just doubly challenging.

Scott:                                                 00:14:04                                          And especially if you're good, right? So it's kind of like, well, how can I go against this and think that I want to be something else when I'm actually good at it. Right? If you're not good, it it hurts, but you probably, you know, you're looking for another way, but if you're good, it was hard for Marinovich to stop playing when he was so good at it. And he knew that it was there, he knew, and his dad seemed right, because everything his dad had kinda said had come true, but the treatment- so he his dad got upset with him and had him run the three miles behind the car. He wouldn't put him in the car. He was mad at how he performed at a game. So he's like, you're going to have to--

Dave:                                                  00:14:43                                          This was when he was a kid?

Scott:                                                 00:14:43                                          Yeah, [Dave: Okay] this is when he's in high school, [Dave: Okay] he's in high school.

Scott:                                                 00:14:45                                          But he said, yeah, I had to run three miles. He said, yeah, everyone said it was five. It wasn't five. It was only like three, three and a half. He said, but [Athena laughs] I was such an amazing athlete. He's like running three miles, three and a half miles after a game. He's like, it really wasn't a big deal to me. [Athena and Dave laugh] And he kinda just, but you can understand why he would go into drug use. Like, cause it's kind of like the only escape that- the myths were that he never ate McDonald's and he was like, nah, that's not quite true. But [Athena and Dave laugh] you know, you had to deal with all these- But when the things are coming to fruition, it is also harder for a kid not to, and in a weird way, it's a play on Weber's Protestant Ethic. And the whole idea of the calling is so when kids see that they've done so well and others talk about them and give them praise.

Scott:                                                 00:15:30                                          Um, and it's talked about as a God-given talent, then the thought is, it's not just yours, it's something you're supposed to share. This was, you know, and, and this is your, your duty is to actually share this. And so it's hard for them to fight. Parents can put on these guilt trips and give you all this extra. So it's even beyond them. And then all the praise that comes with it just, yeah, it it it continues to affirm that their parents have been right and making the decisions and going about it the way that they have. So even though if the methods may seem questionable, the results are what lend itself to saying this is the right way and I should continue to do it. And it makes it really tough.

Dave:                                                  00:16:10                                          [Athena agrees] I mean also like on a societal level, right? Like it's, it's good to be good at sports. [Scott: Absolutely, absolutely] And so I dunno, like, so, so my son is 13 and I'm trying to like push him into being more into sports, not making him run after the car. [Athena, Dave, and Scott laugh] But, you know, I just do it--

Scott:                                                 00:16:34                                          Maybe you're not doing it enough, then. [Athena, Dave, and Scott laugh].

Dave:                                                  00:16:37                                          Maybe not. [Laughter] I should take notes. [Athena, Dave, and Scott laugh] But, but, I do think there is a thing where it's like, you know, cause there's a lot of people who got hooked on coke that didn't play for the Raiders, you know, [Scott: Absolutely, absolutely]. I feel like it can provide opportunities and not even just if somebody makes us a pro athlete, like, because also my daughter does play, she likes volleyball and it's like such a good social aspect. You know what I mean? [Scott: Right] And so, but she has to every year really try to make the team cause it gets harder and harder like [Scott: Right, right] to not get cut. And so we're like paying for all these camps and things like that. So, but I don't know. It's just, I feel like there is, you know what I mean? Like there is a lot of benefits.

Scott:                                                 00:17:17                                          There are. One of the things that, you know, from my standpoint is, I look at coaching, we talk about the benefits a lot. What we spend less time talking about is how the benefits actually happen. And so we act as though it's automatic that just by participating, there's going to be benefits. And so as our model has moved more and more towards this performance to, to stratifying kids by the elite, from those who are not your daughter being in volleyball, think of the clubs and all the levels within the club and who gets to be on the top team. And, and so on. There's a lot of stratification and it's not automatic that they're going to have all of the good experiences. There are many. And I think the younger they are, when we're not putting as much pressure and stratifying them, those benefits can accrue pretty well, but you still get- coaching has to be done deliberately in a way to really maximize those benefits.

Scott:                                                 00:18:15                                          And when you have coaches, you know, one terrible example, uh, I coached my daughter in soccer for several years and started coaching her at about the age of seven or eight. She had already been playing for three years. She had been- she'd skipped on the field, had had the time of her life, but she caught, she wasn't always aware of the attention she was gaining from not being focused. [Dave: Okay] Coaches would be upset. Goals were scored at times. Parents were upset, often teammates. So I started coaching really because I wanted to relieve that pressure. And I wanted her, I did want her to focus more and figure that out, but I felt like I could do a better job of helping her to understand that. Um, and I also believe that kids should have, should play in different roles. It's great to be a star player, but it's also great to be a role player. You know, you need to have humility, understand the different positions others are in so that you can, you know, best either lead or just be a good friend as needed. I don't think kids should only be star players. I think that they should have that so that they're able to deal with adversity as well.

Athena:                                                00:19:19                                          Yeah, well, And- You- Everybody can't be a star, [Scott: Absolutely] right. I mean, [Scott: Absolutely] like that's the thing [Scott: Absolutely; Dave laughs], you know, not everybody can be the top [Scott: Yep]. Not everybody can be at the front of the pack, right? Like it's just, there's going to be some people on the team [Scott: Yes] Who are not the superstars.

Scott:                                                 00:19:36                                          When the, when your parent is coaching though, it's a good chance you're [Athena laughs] going to get to be the star. And so it's one of those, those tough things. Um, but in it, I really stressed, you know, how can we make sure that this is a positive experience for, for Maya, but for all of the girls that she was playing with. And we play on a couple of co-ed teams and those were situations where I had to tell her, why is it that when we play with just same-sex or you're on girls' teams, you have no problem playing hard and showing out. And then we play with boys on our team. Now all of a sudden you're laying back and letting them kick the ball and you're kind of letting them [Athena: Mmm] dictate. So it was, again, you could be, if I'm a coach who just cares about winning, I might not worry about those kinds of things. Instead, I challenged my girls to, to step up, you know, I wanted them to stand out and do what they were capable of doing. What I knew they did when there weren't boys around. Right. And so, but you have to be deliberate. Right. So I was-

Athena:                                                00:20:30                                          Well, and then that's, you're talking about like coaching to stop the zombification, [Scott: Absolutely] Right? [Scott: Right, yes, yes, absolutely] Like, so that you're not inhibiting yourself because there's, you know, boys around [Scott: That's right] or whatever it is.

Scott:                                                 00:20:42                                          That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Athena:                                                00:20:43                                          Yeah.

Scott:                                                 00:20:44                                          And some coaches is, I mean, even at coaching girls who were, I want to say they were nine at the time I had a parent ask me, is it okay? The coach throws balls at the girls when he's upset. [Athena: What?] I said, why are you asking me if it's okay, if [Dave laughs] someone is throwing a ball at your daughter, like what? And she says, he gets really upset. And I thought it was inappropriate, but he was telling me, you know, he's tells him, you know, you've got to get tougher. And y'all, the mother was like, and I think that there is some toughening up that that should be done. And I said, but is that for you to do [Athena: Hmm] that for, you know, what is that? And what does that look like? And so we, we do have to be careful with, with coaches in particular, um, our coaches here in our country, uh, youth sports are, are- Without volunteerism, we have no youth sports. Parents have to volunteer. They have the most interest- vested interest in their kids being able to participate. And we just don't have the resources. We don't have people, we're not paying anyone to be youth coaches. We don't have a national youth development program that, you know, like you're going to other countries where they look at kids at a young age and figure out, you know, in China, they figure out, well, what might you be good at? And then we invest in developing you. For us, it's all volunteerism. And we put our kids into these opportunities. And so you can't ask coaches to, you can't have heavy demands on requirements. [Athena: Um hmm.] We've gotten to where now we ask for fingerprinting, but that's probably the last 10,10 years or so. It's not even a full 10 years where we started asking for that, but you have to have low barriers to entry because you need them to coach.

Athena:                                                00:22:24                                          Right.

Scott:                                                 00:22:25                                          And so what that means is you can't then demand training. You're not going to get continuing education. Even at our college level, coaches don't have to have any kind of training at any relevant fields. [Athena: Mmm] They maybe were former athletes, or they were someone who kind of jumped into athletics and had good networks and found themselves in a coaching job, but no relevant training, no continuing education, no certifications. And that's a part of the problem that we have. And that's why you can't just assume that automatic, we're going to get all the benefits. [Athena: Yeah.] And that's why we have to be a little bit more careful and vigilant about what's going on.

Athena:                                                00:22:59                                          So like from this kind of perspective, then like your perspective of having gone through this as a kid and a teen, and from what you know, now being a parent, [Scott: Yeah] like what are the things that make, uh, like a good coach, a coach who is helping, you know, free you of zombification, as [Scott laughs] opposed to zombifying you? [Athena laughs]

Scott:                                                 00:23:22                                          So you know, if you read on it, folks will say, does the technical aspect, do they know the sport? Um, the other would be emotional, more or less like psychology, are they good emotionally? And that has to include development. And people are not always thinking of this developmentally, right? So we automatically move into advanced socialization. We start to look at these kids that they, could they be this professional so-and-so. And we automatically move in that way without thinking, is this good for them at this developmental stage? Are they ready for these kinds of demands? Can they think about it this way? So they want to lead the team when you tell them they're the star and they should be the star. Do they even want these kinds of things? Um, so I generally think that a good coach is one who really goes about thinking of the life lessons first and foremost- it's not about the sport. I was, I was just watching a short documentary that was funded by ASU, where a coach in Baltimore, Baltimore, uh, what is it? It's a Baltimore swim club, but predominantly African-American, where the, you know, that's not where you expect African-Americans to be competing. And what the coach said was I found that when I focused on character and leadership and not actually on swimming, they got faster. [Dave: Hmm. Athena: Cool.] And so a lot of it is when kids know you care, right? It's it is that basic relational aspect. Kids know that you care. There's a lot that they're willing to do. And to good and bad effect, right? This is the abusive parent. But if they feel like the abuse, the yelling, screaming is a signal of caring or love. Then they're still going to go through walls for that parent. They're still going to believe in them.

Scott:                                                 00:25:00                                          And so it is emphasizing those relational aspects. And it's not just picking out those that you think might be good. It's being, having a relationship with each and every athlete. So that ratio needs to be the right ratio. You can't have too many kids where a coach can't really get to know [Athena: Um hmm.] the, the players. And then I think, yeah, it is also about development. When I was coaching these young girls, I had, I went and I watched high school girls playing soccer. I went and watched college girls playing [Athena: Huh] soccer and women, and really tried to- what's going on at these different levels? What is it that, that is there? And I didn't try to make my little girls play like college players, but what I did learn by looking at that media- middle group to high schoolers is that these parents were yelling, be aggressive, be aggressive, be aggressive.

Scott:                                                 00:25:49                                          And so as a sociologist, I said, well, our socialization is to tell them not to be aggressive. So now you're asking them to flip a switch and now you're yelling and screaming at your kid as opposed to them just being able to play. Um, and at the college level, they're very physical. [Athena: Uh huh.] And so I looked and said, I'm a basketball coach by nature. That's what I do. I had my girls, we did drills where they had to touch each other. You know, they had to lean on each other and it wasn't hurting anybody. It wasn't pushy, but we just did what and basketball will be box out drills. When you watch a soccer player, they have to keep a player from getting to the ball. Literally they just use their body. [Athena: Yeah.] So I didn't have to, I never had to talk to them about being aggressive. They just use their body. And they came to understand that their body was okay to touch one [Athena: Yeah.] another and to be physical. And then I had them doing circuits. So they would do burpees, they would do sit-ups, they did lunges and everything was about learning their body. Because I also knew that that was important. [Athena: Yeah.] Like get to know your body, believe in your body, believe in fitness. Everybody has a body.

Athena:                                                00:26:50                                          Well, and that's so important at that age. Right. [Scott: Absolutely] And for so many different [Scott: Absolutely] reasons.

Scott:                                                 00:26:56                                          Absolutely. [Athena: Yeah] So those are the things that I emphasized. And then always having each other's back, we always have fun. We always had each other's back and I was not a great tactician. And so I learned that that was the limit. Like when she got to 10 or 11, I said, you know what? I can't coach anymore. Cause I don't know the formations you should be playing in. I can't counter. And I don't want you all to get frustrated with losing. They didn't worry about records because we looked at our own progress, look at how we've gotten better. We were losing games by three or four goals. By the end of the season, we're tying the best teams and we played hard. And that's what we took pride in. Look at how much stronger we've gotten physically look at how together we are, look at how- And so we judged and evaluated ourselves by ourselves. What was our starting mark and where did we end? We didn't worry about the other teams quite as much. And that was, that was a real positive experience. My best, my best coaching, I believe. And the most fun I've ever had coaching was coaching those young girls from eight to about 11, 11 years of age.

Athena:                                                00:27:57                                          That's awesome. It sounds like a lot of it is about kind of creating a feeling of safety, right? [Scott: Yes] With the coach, with the process, with your team. [Scott: Absolutely] And if you have that, then you know, if you're coming from a place of safety and security, you can actually tolerate way more stress. [Scott: Absolutely] Right. [Scott: Absolutely] But if you're just kind of coming at it with this super negative punishing approach, eventually you just get so stressed that your performance suffers. Right?

Scott:                                                 00:28:22                                          Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, you know, the girls can then learn to either mimic what the coach is doing, which they'll do, they'll start getting on each other. Right? [Athena: Um hmm.] Because that's what the coach does. And the coach may reward that behavior. They're being a leader as opposed to, you know, so we're always role modeling as adults. [Athena: Yeah.] And so I took that to, you know, I, I took that very seriously too, how am I role modeling? What's supposed to be done? And even when you play a girl who may have lesser skill, you know, do you give her the opportunity to play freely? The other girls are watching, even those who may want to win, I had to talk to some of them sometimes to say, no, everybody gets an opportunity to play. And we're all getting better. Nobody is a professional here. So we don't get down on somebody, we encourage them. [Athena: Yeah] But you have to, you have to again be deliberate about those kinds of things.

Athena:                                                00:29:14                                          Yeah. Well, and it's interesting kind of thinking of it in terms of the zombification stuff, right. You can either take a positive approach, right, to shaping behavior where you're like providing incentives, you're building people up, or you can take a negative punishing approach. And both of those are ways that you can control people [Scott: Absolutely] so you can shape them. Right. [Scott: Absolutely] Um, and you know, in some ways like the negative approach, you can, it's cheaper, like [Scott: Yes] for someone [Scott: Yes] to try to manipulate someone, by- with the punishing approach, um, it takes less time and energy to get someone to change their behavior than actually like creating new patterns and, you know, reinforcing positive patterns. So, um, so it's interesting to kind of think [Scott: Yep] about coaching-

Scott:                                                 00:30:02                                          It's not easy.

Athena:                                                00:30:02                                          -in those terms.

Scott:                                                 00:30:04                                          It isn't easy.

Dave:                                                  00:30:04                                          Can we talk a little bit about the sort of idea of sort of both teamwork and sportsmanship? Like, cause I think, I think that's an interesting dynamic in sports, you know, where it's like, there's, there's competition within the team [Scott: Right] for like who gets to be like the starter, you know? And then there's also, like I noticed like the first year my daughter played volleyball, they were nasty. Like they would like, you know, they do these cheers that were like just trash talking the other schools--

Athena:                                                00:30:34                                          Like what?

Dave:                                                  00:30:34                                          Uh, I don't know. Like it just, it wasn't like they weren't saying anything offensive, like, cause it was in school, but they just, I remember like, so this is like JV, middle school volleyball. The girls would be trying to learn to serve. And so if a girl from the other team would miss a serve, they'd go nuts, they'd be like, yeah!

Dave:                                                  00:30:52                                          And like, I remember talking to my daughter and be like, don't like, get that excited if somebody misses a serve, like if you guys have a great play, then cheer, you know? And like when you guys get a point, sure clap, but just like, I'm like, you know, you don't need to go like wild if someone just misses a serve, you know, [Athena laughs] cause this person's going to feel bad. And so, um, so it was more like that sort of thing. Like, it wasn't necessarily like they wouldn't like insult anybody, like they knew, but they just-

Scott:                                                 00:31:17                                          They cheered mistakes.

Dave:                                                  00:31:20                                          Yeah. [Athena and Scott laugh. Scott: Yep.] Yeah. And so, um--

Athena:                                                00:31:24                                          They were just like all in with the shot for it. [Laughs]

Dave:                                                  00:31:26                                          They just wanted to win, you know what I mean? Like it was like just anything that lets us win is good. And then, and I'm thinking I'm like, these are sixth graders, you know, [Athena laughs] they're like 10 years old, 11 years old and they're trying to hit the ball. They've never, most of these girls had never seen a volleyball before. I mean, they'd seen a volleyball, but you know what I mean? [Scott: Right] They just like, like my daughter a week before try out, she was like, I want to play volleyball. I'm like, volleyball? Okay. Let's figure out- [Athena laughs] Like I didn't even know how the scoring system worked. [Scott laughs] And so, and so, but it's still, I think they've gotten better as they've matured, but there's still this sort of cutthroat nature to it, you know, which I guess [Scott: Yes] maybe it's sort of inherent in competition, but then. . .

Scott:                                                 00:32:10                                          It's not inherent. It's not inherent. It doesn't have to be. And it isn't. Um, so in, during my grad work, I, I say I had two advisors. I have my real academic advisor in sociology, but I coached with a guy who is a guru. He, in terms of basketball, he was a legend in Philadelphia, in their hall of fame was, was actually in the basketball hall of fame altogether. He played, uh, against and beat Will Chamberlain in high school, high school and then married Will's sister. Uh, but he was a fantastic basketball player, and then coached for many years has had several players, actually coached Kobe Bryant's dad and you know, coached the player who has the third all-time leading scorer in NCAA history. Yeah. So really, uh, really is a guru. And uh, I coached and learned under him. That was what my dissertation research is, was from.

Scott:                                                 00:33:04                                          And I kept coaching with him years after. So I'm still using that data and go back to Philadelphia. And it is one of the things that struck me early on was as competitive as he is, he is all about winning. And that's what he'll tell you 'I'm a winner,' [Dave: Uh huh] but we would play other teams. [Scott coughs] Excuse me. And if a kid on the other team made a great play, he's clapping. [Dave: Yeah. Athena: Hmm] 'Great play, kid.' [Dave laughs] 'Like wow.' Like, and after the game and because he was one of the founders of the league, he also said, they're all of our kids. Now we were [Athena: Oh] specific about our team, but he also saw this as, these kids are all of our kids. And that's one of the differences. There are, there are coaches who take it on, even at the high school level with other high schools that all of these kids that, I'm happy and want to see all of these kids, whether they're on the other team or my team, I want to see all of them succeed.

Scott:                                                 00:33:56                                          I'm happy when I see a kid, you know, reaching a high level, that's fun to see. That's exciting. I'm not just yay for me and boo for you. [Dave: Yeah.] And that really did teach me a lot. Now I remember I got to play against some really great players in high school. Jason Kidd, I actually grew up with Jason, but I got to play against him in high school, as a rival. J.R. Rider who went on and played in the pros, Brett Perry. And I remember I actually ran into J.R. Rider, who was a, uh, Phoenix guy, now, lives in Phoenix area. And I talked about, man, I remember when you came to our gym and you dunked on this guy. [Scott laughs] Okay. And I jumped out of my seat and the coach glared at me, but it was one of the best plays I'd ever seen in my life.

Scott:                                                 00:34:39                                          And to reward kids, to see a kid on the opposing team, when you tell them good job, I mean, it really does stick with you and you want to do it more because you see how they go, 'hey, this is somebody who just is, is, is appreciating me.' And you know, [Athena: Yeah.] When you get praise from a stranger, when a stranger wants you to do well, that that's a good human feeling, like that, [Athena and Dave laugh. Athena: Yeah] that's good for humanity. [Athena: Yeah.] I don't even know this person and they're telling me they appreciated what I've done. And while it is a part of the zombification, like in Philadelphia, they are crazy about basketball. They're crazy about other sports, but basketball in particular, particularly the group of folks that I was with. And, you know, a woman could walk by and see a kid in high school and say, I heard about you. In these, I mean status and the praise, the recognition, the social rewards [Athena: Mhmm] that come with that are huge in Philadelphia.

Scott:                                                 00:35:35                                          And so I learned that was an important thing to do was to acknowledge kids on the other team for doing well. And yet we might talk smack to each other. So in Philadelphia [Athena: Hmm] a kid on the opposing team might come over and say, yo, you need to get somebody else to guard me, cause your kid can't handle me. [Dave laughs] And we are all like oh okay. [Athena: Huh.] And depending on the kid's attitude, I might say, you know what? Okay, I'm coming to get you. [Athena and Dave laugh.] And then I'll tell a kid, Hey, go get 'em. But we can actually have fun with it. [Athena: Uh huh.] And after it, you know, you pat them on the backside and say, 'Hey man, you played tough. I really like you, I like your game. You know, I'm going to pay attention,' and they come to look, look, look for that. And so they, these kids will see you as almost one of their coaches from then on. [Athena: Umm] And that's a thing that you want. So--

Athena:                                                00:36:18                                          So you're--

Scott:                                                 00:36:18                                          I learned to take that with me.

Athena:                                                00:36:20                                          You're keeping it playful. Right? Cause [Scott: Absolutely] ultimately it's play. Right--

Scott:                                                 00:36:23                                          It is play--

Athena:                                                00:36:23                                          And if you forget [Scott: that it is play] that and you're just like, you know, this is the competition that is [Scott: Yeah] gonna [Scott: Yeah] determine the rest of my life [Scott: Absolutely] and who cares about anybody else you're not playing anymore. [Scott: Absolutely] Right. It's like become something else.

Scott:                                                 00:36:35                                          And you never know what a kid needs to hear. So there's times in which, it's not just when a kid is playing well, when a kid who you know plays well struggles, I've said to them, 'hey man, I know it was a tough game for you. Keep your head up. [Athena: Hmm] You're gonna be okay.' And you never know whether a kid needs to hear that. I, I needed to hear that. And I got that. When I quit, I went back to watch a game the next year and a coach from the opposing team, our biggest rival. He sees me and pulls me aside and says, I never knew you were struggling over there. I wish I had known. [Athena: Wow.] And he's like, I would have loved to have had you had you on my team. I wish I had known. And that went a long way for me, was, [Athena: Hmm] you know, yeah, somebody else did care.

Scott:                                                 00:37:20                                          They saw me. They didn't just see me as an opponent. They saw me as a kid, you know, who goes through whatever I go through. And so those are important things. And I take that very seriously too. We're a parent, you know, I'm a parent, I'm an adult, or I'm a coach. When I am in that situation, I am supervising. I don't want my kids to get hurt. And I don't want another kid team, a kid on another team to get hurt. I've told referees, you're just blowing a whistle. When we're out here, supervising, you have to look into and see if are these kids being dangerous to themselves. You don't have to blow a whistle. You can stop and and punish with a foul. If things are getting out of hand, stop the whole game, call all the kids and tell them what it is you think they should learn.[Athena: Hmm]

Scott:                                                 00:38:04                                          And these are things that even with referee, who do go through some training, often they're not getting that either. Their thought is, I'm on the job. This is my job. I'm getting paid now. Not what, you know, but what if all of us as adults took it seriously, we're here for all of these kids. We're here to create this safe spaces you talked about. And we want all of them to benefit from, from sport and this way. And we work together in that way. Even if you know, it's playful for us to compete, competition can be fun. It doesn't have to be cutthroat, but it is too often. We get straight to the cutthroat, win at all costs, and not thinking about the larger goals.

Athena:                                                00:38:42                                          Yeah. And the whole building character thing [Scott agrees] that really struck me when you said that earlier, you know, to actually have that be the active goal [Scott: Right] of the coaching of the leagues, right? Like you're building character [Scott: Yeah] and that's something that you actually, you need a community to really build [Scott: Mhmm] character. And if everyone's on the same page about that seems like it could be really powerful for the development, right?

Scott:                                                 00:39:07                                          Right. Right. And I know a lot of people probably say 'Well then, Scott probably doesn't win a lot [Scott laughs] because that sounds like you, you're taking this real, y'all soft approach to it.' But the truth of the matter is you can win, um, with your kids playing hard and playing well and being good sports about it. Um, and you win, whether it happens on the scoreboard or not [Athena: Umm] just by your kids, having the best experience and being able to say, I learned things from, from this, you know, and, and them being able to appreciate when they play against their opponents and sometimes they're their friends anyway. So it is again, you're allowing them to be playful. Um, and you're allowing them to see that the lessons that they get here really can translate. So I think there's a lot of magic we just hope come out of sport. We just say, if you do this, then you'll be a leader. If you do this, you'll have character. And those things don't, they come at a, at a price when you do them the wrong ways.

Athena:                                                00:40:03                                          Yeah. Right. It sounds like what you're trying to do is actually build capacity, [Scott: Yes] you know, both [Scott: Yep] their like long-term capacity and character [Scott: Right], but you know, potentially also just in the, not totally short-term their capacity to be a team to do well on the field. [Scott: Absolutely] Right. [Scott: Absolutely.] All of those things, you know, if you're taking the approach of, you know, really investing [Scott: Absolutely.] as opposed to just trying to extract, [Scott: Absolutely] right, their competitive impulses [Scott: Absolutely.] and get them to, you know, do like as much as they possibly can push themselves to the limit every game. [Scott: Right, right] If you're like, okay, well, how do we build the team? [Scott: Right] How do we build our capacity? How do we build our ability to, you know, take on the stress of competition [Scott: Absolutely.] in a way that is, you know, beneficial for everybody? [Scott: Yeah.] Okay. I want to jump in with some more questions from here. So, [Scott laughs] uh, so when it comes to youth sports, do you think that the, the way that the systems are set up, does that make, uh, like a problem for autonomy, for individuals really being able to decide for themselves what they're wanting to do?

Scott:                                                 00:41:15                                          Yeah, that's a good question. I think we actually, one of the strange things is we have a lot of autonomy here. When you compare us to other countries where they kind of shepherd you into certain sports based on what they've measured you to be good at. So if your body-type and so on, and so some have talked about our- there- after the Beijing Olympics, um, ESPN's magazine came out and they did this study. It was the first time in a while we had won the overall medal count as we usually do in the Olympics, but we did not win the gold count. And that hadn't happened in while, China had actually beaten us. So there was this whole reflection on, well, what happened in the American, the U.S. Olympic committee was kinda, you know, they were frantic about, wait, what does this mean? And are we falling in it? Are we falling to China? Is it really happening now? [Scott laughs.] And all of this concern. And so they asked the, actually ASU swim coach now, Michael Bowman, who has coached Phelps and a bunch of other, uh, great Olympic, uh, folks. And he said, you know, our system is really, we're lucky because we don't do this national program of kind of looking to see who would be good at what. And he said, when I look at the USA basketball team, their bodies are actually more ideal for swimming than most of the swimmers I had. He said, [Athena: Wow] because we want length. So he's like, and so he gave a real specific example. He said, I'm at the Baltimore aquatic center and here's Carmelo Anthony who plays on the USA basketball team. He's six foot eight, six foot nine, he's long and lean muscles, huge hands, which would make for good paddles.

Scott:                                                 00:42:55                                          He's like large feet. Like he's like all of this that goes on. And he said, and Michael Phelps, who swam at the Baltimore aquatics center, and he said, Michael would travel 45 minutes one way to get to meet Carmelo. Anthony could walk to my Baltimore aquatic center in less than 10 minutes. He said, but because of segregation and economics and the way that we, and so you look at sports, so racially segregated [Athena: Mmm] Said the likelihood of Carmelo getting into my pool. He said, yeah, he could have been in another city, in another state. It just wasn't gonna to happen. Carmelo was going to play basketball or football. Cause that's what black kids do. [Athena: Mmm] In the inner city, he said. And so that's the problem that we have is that this is a pay for play model. It's racially segregated, and you have to be able to get access.

Scott:                                                 00:43:43                                          And so for those kids, even who might have a notion of it, they're fighting cultural stereotypes. They're fighting whether or not they can pay for it, they're fighting all of these things. And so kids have autonomy in the sense, as long as it fits within those cultural stereotypes and they can pay for it, they can play sports as opposed to other countries where they're kind of not allowed to, in some ways. They're not given the the opportunities to fully develop. If we're talking about elite athletes, to fully develop, you know, if they don't fit that kind of body type, but our system is very racially segregated and that creates this luck.

Athena:                                                00:44:20                                          So there's really very two very different kinds of ways that autonomy is being limited in these [Scott: Yes] Two systems, right [Scott: Yep]. In the Chinese system, it's much more based on like a top-down assessment. [Scott: Right, right] And then in our system, it's sort of all of these structural inequality issues [Scott: Yep, yep] that really are-

Scott:                                                 00:44:37                                          And the bottom of your culture and what they do in your neighborhood. Yes.

Athena:                                                00:44:42                                          Yeah. [Scott: Yeah.] Interesting. So for, for kids who are wanting to find like a good fit with sports, like they're, they end up being really limited by where they come from [Scott: Absolutely] what you're saying [Scott: Yep, yep] in this country, at least.

Scott:                                                 00:44:58                                          Yeah. Yeah. And those resources that attest to where they come from. Absolutely.

Athena:                                                00:45:02                                          Mhmm. So, but in China, if a kid had, you know, a lot of natural skill, they could potentially get picked sort of from top down [Scott: Absolutely] and then have resources put towards their training.

Scott:                                                 00:45:11                                          For their life. Like for a long time being, you know, being developed [Athena: Yeah] now the negative Yao Ming, uh, his case. He came from a small town, um, small privates and then a small town. And he was courted by the government to play. And he kept saying, no, kept saying, no, they were putting out billboards saying that he needed to play. Then it was a whole shame campaign. And so he was forced by his family. Like, 'Hey, it's better for you to go play. We're catching a lot of heat by you not playing.' [Athena: Wow] And so there's, there's research there's books on it. It's in one of the main books called Project Ming, uh Yao Ming, and he was literally a governmental project to go and get him because they thought he could save, you know, Chinese basketball. And he talks about that pressure of having to be there for that nation. And he didn't like it, he he's [Athena: Wow] soft spoken, he's shy. He didn't want all of that attention. And yet he didn't have a choice.

Athena:                                                00:46:10                                          Wow. And that kind of thing actually happens on a smaller scale in high school sports sometimes, Right? Where a coach will be like, you play on my team. [Scott: Absolutely] Right. [Scott: Absolutely] And, and then the social pressure [Scott: Absolutely] just within the school [Scott: Absolutely] can influence kids [Scott: Absolutely] in a, I mean, it's not as, as large of a scale as [Scott: Right, right] what happened with Ming.

Scott:                                                 00:46:29                                          Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dave:                                                  00:46:30                                          So, so going back to the idea of the racial segregation, [Scott: Right] like between different sports and things, what can we do to sort of improve that? You know, like-

Scott:                                                 00:46:40                                          It's a, it's a tough thing. I mean, you know, whether you're looking at school districts and we talk about particularly in the South, um, you know, when we got to school districts, there is as much a difference between the resources within a school district as there were between school districts. Right. So the whole separate, but equal kind of things just kept going--

Dave:                                                  00:47:02                                          Like what, do like you mean like different school, like-

Scott:                                                 00:47:04                                          Yeah. Within Atlanta school district, I'll give you as an example, [Dave: Sure] you'll have household incomes that might be 150 plus at one school and they'll compete with another school in their school district. And they're, you know, 110% below poverty line. [Dave: Okay] And so you've got these huge differences, although they're relatively close, right. [Dave: Sure] And they have to compete against one another. So we'd have to find a way to share those kinds of resources across school districts is just one example [Dave: Uh huh] Of what you'd have to do. You know, our tax system where, you know, the household and what you're paying on rent, right? The property taxes and whatnot, going to those local resources that inhibits this ability to share it across to other, uh, other areas where they don't have the same amount of household incomes, where they don't have property taxes. So in a place like, uh, Philly, you know [Dave: Yeah] there's magnet schools that are in the city that will attract people who have big money and they'll send their kids into the city, but the kids who're local, might be living in section eight or might be living, you know, in the projects.

Scott:                                                 00:48:10                                          And you know, how do you balance that? You've got to get people to be able to say, I'm willing to share my resources, to have it go to those areas. And instead we hold on ours. As Americans, we kind of believe that's my right. I earned this money. I went and bought land here. I'm paying all these taxes for these schools to be good. I want my kids to have the benefit. And that's where we have a problem, but you would need to be able to do that so that there are more swim centers throughout the country. [Dave: Sure] Right. [Dave: Yeah] And that gives access knowing, um, so when you have kids competing and they have such differences when they're competing with other schools, you're seeing in areas, sports like football, where they have to travel. You know, I coached at a high school in Riverside, California and our kids were, our school was 90% free lunch.

Scott:                                                 00:49:00                                          So kids were coming to school and hadn't eaten and we're expecting them to practice. [Athena: Mmm] So we just came to leave bread. We went to Costco and regularly bought bread and peanut butter and say, here's peanut butter and jelly. You could at least have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but we as coaches and we're getting a stipend of a thousand dollars for the season, we're already getting well underpaid we're, we're in the negatives for our time commitment, we're having to spend more of our own resources just to help our kids be able to compete. You know, with some food, let alone, you go to a school that has boosters and they've got catered lunch, catered lunches before they hop on the road and chartered buses. [Athena: Yeah] And you know what I mean? So we have to really get better at being willing to share those resources that give our kids access to different rec centers that have all the kinds of facilities you'd want. Um, as well as the opportunity to compete with the same level of nutrition and, you know, you can't, you can't legislate sleep, but right. When a kid is coming from tougher backgrounds, how they're able to sleep, you know, their exposure to materials that give them asthma. You've got all of these other health risks that come with socioeconomics. So it's a tough thing.

Athena:                                                00:50:09                                          It sounds like a lot of it actually comes back to shifting the attention onto the character building aspect of sports, right? Because if that's what everyone is coming to it with, if that's what the kids are coming to it with, that's what the coaches are coming to it with. That's what the parents are coming to it with. Then it's not as much about how do I give my kid the advantage over everybody else. But instead it's about how do I create a community that's going to build character for my kids. And, you know, for the kids who are coming from the wealthier backgrounds, it's a very character building experience to learn about the privilege that they're coming [Scott: Absolutely] from [Scott: Absolutely] through truly, you know, being a part of a community that's more diverse. And so I think there might be a lot of opportunities there where it's not just, 'oh, hey, you have stuff you should, you know, give it to someone who doesn't have stuff,' but just how do we create the community where the focus for everyone is on the character building side of things.

Scott:                                                 00:51:07                                          Yes. So I, I had a very interesting conversation, um, with, so, ASU's, uh, athletic apparel partner is Adidas, Adidas is given our global sport institute. They'd been given us a generous gift. Um, it's philanthropic. So we do whatever research we want to do, but we, we also do partner with them on certain things. So I was speaking to the scholastics VP who was talking about making this deal with the Atlanta school district. And she wanted to level the playing field. So she was asking if we could do some research to help. And one of the things, so that's looking at an athletic apparel company who has a desire, at least one person in particular to say, how can we help level this playing field? And so I gave her, I said, well, you know, the cause of what we do profit sharing across our conference.

Scott:                                                 00:51:54                                          So when a team does well and goes to a playoff tournament that is shared across all the schools. [Dave: Huh] So if you created a profit sharing model within that school district, because they're making money off of big time football games and other things that would help the district. I said, if you created a, a committee of the student athletes, so you take four or five student athletes from each school and they meet and talk about the different resource needs and issues going on across it, you start to build this community. That's just speaking out. So I said, you know, that would be powerful because they get to share and learn, Oh my goodness. So you don't have those kinds of things. And then when their parents are saying, I'm willing to put $10,000 to help this school, and I don't care about the other school, their kid might actually hold them accountable.

Athena:                                                00:52:38                                          That's cool. Yeah. [Dave laughs]

Scott:                                                 00:52:40                                          I've actually met these folks over there, and mom and dad, do you realize like they don't even, they can't do this or do that? I think that maybe we should have your both teams have a, have a meal before the game. Like maybe I think the kids could be far more creative [Athena: Yeah] and would be much more willing to share it because we do start off talking to our kids about, 'hey, don't make other kids feel bad.' Right. [Dave: Right. Athena: Yeah.] It's only when they get to a certain level that we start to really change all that. But for the most part, all of us are geared towards, we want our kids to feel good and other kids, but we lose it somewhere along the way. And I think if you allow our youth to start to come up, you know, give them the, the opportunity to make some of these decisions, they'll make better decisions than we're making, and they'll figure out how to help one another. And I think that those would be great community building aspects that would help us.

Dave:                                                  00:53:28                                          Even when, even when I think about, you know, Greta's volleyball team, it's like, they go, they play, they, and then they go home, you know, [Scott: Yeah] and it's true in Tempe as well. You know, [Scott: Yeah] it's like the schools are, there's a lot of differences in terms of the makeup of who's going to these schools, [Scott: Yes there are] you know [Scott: Yes there are]? And, um, and so it's like, yeah, by being a part of the sports she's- I saw that for the first time. And then, but then it's still, it's like, it still doesn't seem like they quite meet the other kids. You know what I mean [Scott: Right, right, right]? Like, and so [Athena: Hmm] it does seem like things [Athena: A lost opportunity] like that, like [Athena: Yes. Scott: Yes.] even a meal, you know, everybody like gets dinner, like even like a seas- you know, like once or twice a season have all the kids from every school get together [Scott: Right] for like [Scott: Right] dinners [Scott: Right]. It's like, that would-

Scott:                                                 00:54:15                                          They're, they're, they're going through that shared experience of having to manage their school life with their sport life, you know, all of those pressures, like there's so many things they have in common, [Dave: Yeah] you know, but we, we can't get to that. And we can only deal with the surface level yo uh, ways in which we're, we're segregated, which we're different [Dave laughs]. And I think that that becomes one of those, you know, again, it's a lost opportunity when we could really maximize how sport brings people together. We say it all the time, but it's not, it may literally bring them in the same space that does not mean that there's any real valuable exchange that helps to better things. Again, there's a lot of, you know, assumptions that we make that just by putting them in together, that means it's going to lead to something wonderful. And that doesn't just happen. [Dave: Yeah] You have to, you have to teach them, you have to be able to talk about it. We've got a, you know, role model, those kinds of things. And, you know, I [Athena: Right] think we can do a lot better.

Athena:                                                00:55:08                                          It's like a cultural shift--

Scott:                                                 00:55:09                                          It is. Absolutely.

Athena:                                                00:55:09                                          Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, when we talk about Zombification, it's not always bad, right? Like a lot of the things that we're talking about in terms of, you know, building character or creating an infrastructure for a community, I mean, those are things that influence people's behavior [Scott: Absolutely] and that can be positive. [Scott: Absolutely] So are there other aspects of sort of getting zombified by sports, especially for youth that are, are positive? You think?

Scott:                                                 00:55:40                                          I, I, yes. I think so. And I want to be fair to coaches. In most cases, coaches are very well-meaning well-intentioned and they want everybody to have fun. Um, again, I think we just get caught up in some of those things, but I think that those are, um, I, I often can appeal to coaches when I'm giving presentations and talking to them, like, you really do want your kids to develop. You really want to see them improve. Not necessarily that they've got to become a star you really want, and everyone says yes. And we love the puzzle of learning kids, you know? And we, and we, as a coach, you'll see how many coaches become YouTube coaches, where they're, they're boning up on everything they can about that sport when they don't know it. I spent so much time looking at drills on YouTube [Athena: Mmm] going to Google search it [Dave laughs]

Scott:                                                 00:56:29                                          And you can really nerd out on just like, how do I get this and do this right. I've worked with a college coach, a women's volleyball coach division one. And the amount of time she spent at trying to figure out character and leadership and just trying new ways. I mean, coaches really do do that. And you, you see with, with kids, you know, you could get lifelong friendships out of sport. Again it's usually with only within your own team, but still. They want to go back and, and, and, and play. Right. And they love coaches who make it fun. My daughter used to always say to me, 'Dad, we don't play enough games when we're at practice.' Right. She wanted it to be fun at all times. Okay. Let's figure out games. Let's, let's learn to do these things. And those are really positive aspects just to stay fresh and to keep doing different things, to get them to think, to utilize their brains, to work together.

Scott:                                                 00:57:26                                          I love doing practices where if I was frustrated with their lack of communication, I'd say, okay, now we're not going to get to talk. No one gets to talk and you've got to play a game. [Dave laughs] And then after a while, they start to go, well, how are we, how do we get this done coach? Exactly. [Athena: Hmm. Dave laughs.] Right. So now I want you to realize how much, how, how much value there is to communicate. But you've got to be creative in trying to figure out how to get them to do it. And I had a high school travel basketball team. We played competitively. They were all sophomores and juniors in high school. I said, most of you, they're pretty middle-class. We were in a college town in Missouri. So they had gone to camps at the local university. They had done all of this. And I said, there's probably not much that I can say to you you haven't already heard. So this team is going to be you all's team. [Athena: Hmm] I'm not, I don't. When it comes to a game, I said, my job is to help kind of prepare you for what it might be like in a game, and how to think and communicate. Those are the things I will hold myself responsible for. But in a game, when you're on the court, I want you all to decide when a timeout is called, you guys have heard when you're supposed to. So I could quiz them about what happens when you're down by a lot of points, which did you do? And they tell me, well, you gotta speed the game up. I need more possessions. These are things they already know. So often by the time they're your kids who have played for a few years, by the time they're a junior in high school, there isn't much that they don't know in terms of strategy.

Scott:                                                 00:58:56                                          They may learn a new offense and learn this and that. But I just found myself, let me just support you and what you guys already know. I want you to learn to work better together. I want you all to encourage each other. So I had them do an exercise where it was, you have to pick four teammates and talk about what you value about their game and where you think they're not utilizing everything that they have in terms of their gifts, their abilities, [Athena: Hmm] and to have them hear that, you know, when people read it out loud, people like, I didn't know you thought I was a good athlete. I didn't know you thought, yeah. It's not just me who believes in you, your teammates believe in you. [Athena: Nice] And so, you know, they're getting, there's all these ways in which if we're deliberate and we try sport can do all these positive things and the kids know it, and they're aware of it because they do hear all of these things about it.

Scott:                                                 00:59:46                                          And we need to give this control back to them. We need to say, this is for you, it's yours. And at a certain age, you should be shepherds of what this experience should be. [Athena: Right] And let me just kind of help guide where I think there's extra things that maybe I can provide. Right? But there are a lot of, uh, positives, particularly when you're talking about young girls, I think there are a lot of positives to have, you know, I, I had to convince my daughter she was an athlete cause she didn't know it. [Athena: Hmm] I said, well, why is it you think that, well, you know, my brothers play, but I, I'm not really playing yet. And I had to tell her, no, you're just as much an athlete. As there, you got the same genes, you got bigger legs than they do. You've got more powerful legs.

Scott:                                                 01:00:27                                          You're strong, [Athena: Hmm] you're fast. And you know, really finding those ways for them to embrace themselves, their body and whatever body type they have. Really trying to encourage them to do that. So I think it really does a good, good thing for girls. Uh, we have one girl who had a prosthetic cause she played with us and you know, she was, her parents were very much, there is no pity. I remember the first time she fell and her prosthetic is below her knee came off and I was like [Athena: Oh] freaked out. And I went to go grab it. She stopped me, grabbed it before I could and hop right back up. And there is no, and so [Athena: Hmm.] when we played other teams, there were panicked parents. [Athena and Dave laugh.] Like you broke her leg, like all these kinds of things. And we came to laugh because we're like, you don't even know how she is.

Scott:                                                 01:01:16                                          Right. And everyone thought she was so fragile and she was not. And she refused, her parents taught her, and she refused to let you think of her as fragile. And that was one thing that we, we became, everyone came to accept. We need all inclusive teams when it's possible. It depends on whether it's a physical challenge or a cognitive challenge, but finding ways to be more inclusive of all groups of abilities and whatnot, having more leagues that are developmentally where you may have different ages because your kids grow at different rates. [Athena: Hmm] So you've got to figure out. So we need a range of highly competitive leagues down to leagues that are not so competitive because, yes, I think you still need to push those who really are aspiring. And they really want it. There should be a place for them to go after that, but there also needs to be a place for kids to always have fun and even adults. A lot of us, once we're done in high school, there is no more competing and that's not good for our health. It can still be a good stress release. [Athena: Yeah] Like we need to have more sports opportunities for all of us, in, in all of these inclusive ways.

Athena:                                                01:02:21                                          That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So when we kind of get to the end of the episode, we always ask this question [Scott: Yep] of like, what is the version of the zombie apocalypse for this kind of Zombification, right? [Scott: Yeah] Like, so everyone was zombified by youth sports. Like kids [Scott: Yeah], parents, coaches [Scott: Yeah], schools [Scott: Yeah.], universities [Scott: Yeah.], everyone [Scott: Yeah] was just utterly zombified. What would that world look like?

Scott:                                                 01:02:50                                          Am I looking at the good way? Or the bad way?

Athena:                                                01:02:52                                          You can take it whatever way you want. [Athena laughs]

Scott:                                                 01:02:54                                          Let me take it as the good way. Um, a woman I met a colleague in South Africa is German, is she talked about her 80 year old mother. So they, she said they grow up in sports clubs and it's neighborhood based and they go to rec centers and they play in that for their whole lives. She said her 80 year old mother is still taking walks every Thursday with her sport club. And they walk to the next town. She said they get pizza and ice cream and walk back. And I went, and so I started thinking of how could I do that? Not just have when I have the girls that I'm coaching, but having their parents on Saturdays, even when our league is no longer in session. And what if we met every Saturday, and just went for a walk in the trail. So this was in Missouri, walk for the- in the trail, or those who wanted to run ran. Those who wanted to bike, went on bikes. And we did this for our lives. It was really that community sense. And so really going to play in schools, whether it's, you know, middle school or high school, even college, it's just a time away to do, do another form of that community. But you come back to a community that you're always able to reconnect with. And that to me would be the ideal, right? So it might be federally subsidized in a way that it's about our health and our wellness overall, but we never have to stop playing. And there's all these ways within your community it's built in, you're not paying for going to the lifetime fitness, or going to LA fitness. You got this local rec center, that's all inclusive for all abilities. And everybody comes in there and you can do whatever you want to do. I- I've dreamt of, uh, uh, a fitness center or a gym that was all called Recess and you showed up--

Athena:                                                01:04:35                                          [Laughing] I love that.

Scott:                                                 01:04:35                                          and it was recess. [Athena laughs]

Scott:                                                 01:04:36                                          And think about going back [Athena: Yeah] to recess in grammar school. And it might be kickball, or dodgeball. You hop in the game. And then those who want specific training, they can get specific training, whether they're an adult or a kid, but we can all just have recess and just pop in, in and out and do what we want to do. And I think that that kind of version of fun at its heart, that again, is about community where we take care of, shepherd each other's kids all together, you're all inclusive of all abilities, LGBT, race, ethnicity. I think that that's something that I would love to see as a zombie apocalypse.

Dave:                                                  01:05:09                                          That's a good, can I sort of point out one way that I think we are zombified in our thinking about sports [Athena: Yeah] that like, even though that's a really positive note [Scott: Yeah], But I think like we talked about like with like the different districts in Atlanta and things. We have, like, we have this sort of idea that it's like, the school's always competing against the other school. Right. [Scott: Yeah] And there's like, what's that study with like the rattler? Like they put the two people on the different teams, you know, [Athena: That's a classic social psychology experiment.] like these kids at summer camp. And then they end up, and I'm thinking about like, when I used to play, like pick up games of basketball and you'd be on like a different team every time, you know? So then you're cooperating [Scott: Yeah]. And I think there's a way that it's like- Now obviously like at a professional level, we're not going to just randomly assign players to different teams every time. But we're so used to this idea of like, whenever my daughter goes to play against another school, she's always playing against the other school. [Scott: Yes]

Athena:                                                01:06:02                                          Right. The coalitional identity is what's being made really salient [Scott: Yeah] and that can be a really powerful motivator [Scott: Yeah], but it might also have some negative effects if you get people to focus on that at the expense of the community building and character building.

Dave:                                                  01:06:16                                          I wonder, I wonder if it would be helpful this every once in a while, I'll just have like, especially like schools to have be like, all right, we're right now you're playing, we're going to pick five people from each school [Scott: Yeah] and you're just all going to, you know what I mean?

Scott:                                                 01:06:26                                          Well, give a shout out to our, our Philly, uh, Philadelphia, their- the basketball system at Philly, because you play at a high school level, you play playground basketball, you play travel basketball. We have summer leagues all over the city all the times. It lends itself to that. [Dave: Yep] So I had kids who would play on my team in the Sunny Hill league, and then they go play in two or three neighborhood summer leagues where they're playing against kids that might be on other teams in our league, but they're on their team. And they were playing against all these different kids and then rotating, sometimes they're teammates, sometimes they're not. And I really got to see that. So they, there was much more of a camaraderie, but that basketball system in Philly is really developed, and--

Dave:                                                  01:07:07                                          Yeah. When I used to play basketball [Scott: Yeah] in Philly, like it would be, you'd be on a different team [Scott: Yeah] every time [Scott: Yeah], you know? And so the guy-

Scott:                                                 01:07:13                                          Well, and it's also because you can play at different levels so you can play it highly competitive all the way down to rec and the kids do. [Dave: Yeah] So if I'm a basketball player, I would play at a neighborhood summer league that means nothing. And it's really kind of silly and we're just kind of having fun and it doesn't carry any kind of status to it, but I'm just playing with local friends. And then I might go to one level up where it's a little bit more status, more people show up, there's more bragging rights, but I'm on a totally different team with different guys. And then I played for my high school during the summer at another tournament, and then I'm playing- you're in the Sunny Hill league. And so they get to play around and move around the city, which was also good because kids who are used to playing in their hood often, you know, whether it's just, and it's not always formal gang lines, but they're just not able to navigate the city as much without danger.

Athena:                                                01:08:02                                          That's interesting.

Scott:                                                 01:08:03                                          And so when they can actually travel because the league is in another city, in another part of town, that actually got them around and the universities were the hosts. So we play games at Temple university. We play games at St. Joe's, play games at LaSalle. So literally you got kids who y'all were, would be first-generation college students who got to go to three or four different major universities, really around Philadelphia and play. And that was a tremendous thing. That's why that league means so much to me [Athena: Umm.] Because it gave them that portability. And the model was you'd start in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade league. Then you played on the ninth and 10th grade, then 11th and 12th. We had a college league and it had started with a- with a pro league. And it was always the older team from the same neighborhood.

Scott:                                                 01:08:51                                          It was based on neighborhoods. I coached the South Philly, older kids from South Philly would come to our practices for the sixth, seventh, and eight graders. [Athena: Hmm] So they're literally peer mentoring. They have someone to look up to, they take them under their wing, that, that league is called a community involvement league, and it was all about your community, having coaches from the community sometimes, you know, they might be police officers or probation officers. So when they develop those partnerships, when a kid finds themselves in trouble, they have, I have examples in my field work of a probation officer who's with our league, sees one of our kids that goes 'what's going on?' And they helped them to navigate that juvenile system. [Athena: Wow] So all of those ways you can replicate it in different ways.

Athena:                                                01:09:36                                          So yeah, it really talking, talking about building that community infrastructure [Scott: Yeah] and that trust [Scott: Yep] that kind of cuts across the normal ways that the networks might be separated. [Scott: That's right. That's right. And antagonistic] Yeah--

Scott:                                                 01:09:50                                          Yeah, [Athena: Right] yeah, and it builds those bridges.

Athena:                                                01:09:52                                          Hmm. So it's almost like you could take this framework of sports that, you know, at least on the surface is about competition [Scott: Right] and use it to reduce conflict.

Scott:                                                 01:10:02                                          Absolutely, absolutely.

Athena:                                                01:10:04                                          Interesting. So that's our, that's our positive sport. Youth sports zombie apocalypse [Scott: Yes.] is, uh, you know, infrastructure where people have these opportunities in their communities to [Scott: Yeah] actually bridge, [Scott: Yeah] you know, between schools, between, um--

Scott:                                                 01:10:22                                          Neighborhoods.

Athena:                                                01:10:22                                          Yeah. All of that

Scott:                                                 01:10:24                                          And one of the other small pieces, which I've tried to develop more so as we also had youth who participated in managing the league. So literally they worked on marketing. They, you know, took the stats. So they, and some of them have gone on to school gone into the sports management programs and the like. So I love that it extended beyond those who are athletes, because if the opportunities are only for those who are good, you're not going to be able to help a lot. And kids in our most under-resourced neighborhoods rely on hope in order to make those positive gains. They have to think long-term when they're dealing with such tenuous and really adult situations in the short-term, having to make very serious decisions that they need that hope to think long-term. They need that hope to say, I've got a target.

Scott:                                                 01:11:11                                          I can keep my eye on the prize when that's a tough thing to do. And so, so be able to provide opportunities that say, this is not just about whether or not you're an athlete. Come on in our league and understand how sports operate, what's the business of sport. And then be able to provide that. And there are, they're very- I've never heard of, uh, of leagues- of other leagues that are, that are doing that where they're literally bringing in youth on a regular basis and say, 'help us to run this league and learn what this means.' [Athena: Nice] And that's an important thing to have. [Athena: Yeah].

Athena:                                                01:11:41                                          So before we finish, I do want to ask you one more question, which is, what advice would you have for parents? Right. So like, as you know, I've got three kids, too. I've got a seven year old, 12 year-old and a 14 year-old. Only my seven year-old is into sports. [Scott: Okay] He's super into soccer. [Scott: Okay] Um, but how do we navigate the current systems that we have, you know, in [Scott: Right] mostly in the US but I mean, there's other systems elsewhere, right? Like the German system, [Scott: Right] but so how can we figure out how to navigate that best for our kids and for the communities that our kids are a part of.

Scott:                                                 01:12:18                                          Right. I continue to check in with my daughter to make sure she's having fun. Are you having fun? Is this still something you want to do? And I'll ask her why it's fun. Um, because I want to make sure that it's not, you know, me, she feels as though I'm pressuring her. She's actually said that at certain times, 'I felt like I was doing it because I thought you wanted me to do it.' And we had that conversation a couple, maybe a year and a half ago. And I told her, no Maya I really don't really care. I want you to be happy. And then she said, 'Oh, well, let me think about it.' And then she came back and said, 'no, I still want to do it.' Okay. [Athena: Hmm] And then I checked in with her this morning, doing those constant check-ins, you know, if you're going to go through training and invest in training and someone, I don't want it to then be, you're obligated to do this for me, because I see the benefits of her continuing to be physically active.

Scott:                                                 01:13:07                                          That to me, is it, I want her to have lifetime physical activity. That's my goal. I want her to be healthy. [Athena: Yeah] And so I tell her, me investing in you going to do training. And you're doing that means if that turns into you realize this is normal, and this is what you should be doing for your body. That's enough of a payoff for me. I really don't care how good you get, or- if you want that, then I want to provide the resources and help. But it really doesn't matter to me. I'm with you either way. So that check-in first, I want my coaches for my children to really want my kids to be having fun, but I also want them to want my kid to be their best version of themselves. And so that may mean that they challenged my, my kid.

Scott:                                                 01:13:56                                          Um, and I'm okay with that. I was stressed. You need to develop the relationship first though. Right? So I check in with a coach. I want to introduce myself, introduce my, my kids to them, give them whatever kind of insights I think would be helpful. And then I do talk about this being a back and forth. Like I'm going to be watching you, right. It's not to intimidate or whatever, but it is, hey, they're still my child. And so, yeah, they're here under your supervision. I want you to be aware that that's how I see it, that you are to keep them safe. And I will talk to you if I think that there are problems with their safety. Not concerned with how you run your program, that is you, that someone is, and the school situation you're hired to do that. I trust you going through all the trainings you need to do, but I am concerned about my, my kid and their safety.

Scott:                                                 01:14:42                                          And then if there are larger things, right, it is how do we keep our kids focused on being good human beings? And so those are that, that's the advice, right? Again this is not magic. And if the coaches are not giving our kids what they need in terms of character and leadership, it's in our best, you know, it's just, as he said, you gotta talk to your kid about how they are treating their opponents, how they're treating their teammates. And really try to help make sure that your kid is able to translate the things that they are experiencing into their, their lives long-term.

Athena:                                                01:15:13                                          Yeah so how do you balance the, like, encouraging them to see themselves [Scott: Yeah] as athletes [Scott: Yeah] with not pressuring them, right? Like how do you navigate that? [Scott: Yeah] Like, no, like you should do this. You're good. [Scott: Yeah] Like you can do this. And, but also, you know, give them the space. You know, I--

Scott:                                                 01:15:31                                          I think I'd do it for myself. Cause I still consider myself an athlete and I haven't competed in a long time. And so when I tell her she's an athlete, I'm really talking about her body and her strength. I'm not talking about whether or not she's good. That is not what I'm saying. I can encourage her and tell them, 'well, yeah, you're fast and you can do this,' but it's not about whether or not she's good. It's really about, she has her own natural gifts and abilities and she is to use them, you know, and, and, and to push herself however she wants. And that's where I'm really trying to make the balance. It's not a necessity. It's not a duty that you do these kinds of things, but it is. You do have, you are an athlete. And I don't limit that to just her.

Scott:                                                 01:16:13                                          I think all kids are athletes in certain ways, or most kids can be athletes in certain ways. It really is about finding the sport, it's really about finding the athlete, the, the outlet, but that does not mean go off and become an elite. You got to go off and become Gabby Douglas. You got- no, you don't have to pursue that. Maybe you still want to put all your interests in music. That's just doesn't mean you don't have to do this for fun too. So for me, that's the balance. As long as it's fun. And that's all I want for her, as long as it's fun. When it is no longer fun, then to me, it's an easy decision to not do it. [Athena: Yeah] Find some other way of being an athlete and doing the right things. But that's an encouragement for her to use her body and be active.

Athena:                                                01:16:58                                          So you might be zombified by the youth sports, but as long as you're having fun, it's all good.

Scott:                                                 01:17:03                                          It's all good. [Athena laughs] It's all good.

Athena:                                                01:17:05                                          Great. Well, Scott, thank you so much for sharing your brains with us [Scott laughs] on this episode.

Scott :                                                01:17:11                                          Thank you, my pleasure.

Outro:                                                 01:17:19                                          [Psychological by Lemi]

Athena :                                               01:18:29                                          Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave:                                                  01:18:35                                          And we would like to thank everyone who helps make Zombified possible, including the department of psychology here at ASU,

Athena :                                               01:18:42                                          -the Lincoln Center for Applied Zombie Apocalypse Ethics, otherwise known as the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics.

Dave:                                                  01:18:51                                          [Laughs] Some people call it that, it's got many names. [Laughs.] We'd also like to thank the interdisciplinary cooperation initiative and the president's office at ASU-

Athena :                                               01:19:00                                          -and all of the brains that help make this podcast. Tal Rom who does our awesome sound,

Dave:                                                  01:19:06                                          Neil Smith, who does our illustrations and who will be doing a workshop at the conference we're going to talk about in a second.

Athena :                                               01:19:12                                          Yes. Uh, awesome set of workshops so that you can illustrate your way through the zombie apocalypse.

Dave:                                                  01:19:17                                          That's right. Uh, but before we get to that, we'd also like to thank Lemi, who did the song Psychological.

Athena :                                               01:19:23                                          Yes. And our Z-team, uh, ASU who helps us out with everything from transcripts to posting on social media. And, uh, we actually have a completely amazingly awesome social media presence now thanks to the awesome Z- team. So you guys rock.

Dave:                                                  01:19:42                                          That's right. And if you want to, you can find us pretty much everywhere. Um, Tik Tok, YouTube, Facebook, whatever they invent after Tik Tok, we'll be there, too. Uh, [Athena laughs] and you can [laughs]

Athena :                                               01:19:55                                          Twitter, Instagram, of course [Dave: Right] Facebook. Is anybody still on Facebook? Yeah, I guess.

Dave:                                                  01:20:00                                          Yeah. Well, we are, we're on Facebook--

Athena:                                                01:20:06                                          [Laughs.] Nobody else is but we are.

Dave:                                                  01:20:06                                          Um, and you can find out all of that at zombified.org. And so, and you can also check out ZAM Apocalypse [Athena: Yes] to find out about our conference.

Athena :                                               01:20:19                                          Yeah. So, uh, on social media, we've got Zombified and then we also have our broader brand, which is the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. And for anything relating to that, if you just ZAM, look up ZAM, apocalypse, Z A M Apocalypse, ZAM Apocalypse, you will find us. Um, and, uh, let's talk about the conference, the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting. So, so that's happening October 15th through 18th, and you can see our just amazing lineup of speakers at zombiemed.org. It is, it's so awesome that if I start talking about it right now, I'm gonna just like, my brain is going to explode, so I can't start--

Dave:                                                  01:21:04                                          Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh do it, do it!

Athena:                                                01:21:05                                          Otherwise I can't stop.

Dave:                                                  01:21:05                                          Oh, alright.

Athena :                                               01:21:07                                          [Athena and Dave laugh] Well, for example, like Rachel Feltman, Sarah Hill, Barbara Natterson-Horowitz, Donna Zuckerberg, I mean like the list just goes on. It's like all these totally amazing speakers. And then on top of that, we have a phenomenal set of abstracts that people have submitted. Um, and then we're going to be not just having traditional talks, we're going to be having TV shows that integrate all this, you know, these different perspectives and this different information. So it was really going to be like no other meeting you've ever been to. I promise.

Dave:                                                  01:21:42                                          It's going to be awesome. So, [Athena: Yeah] um, so where do they go to register?

Athena :                                               01:21:46                                          Zombiemed.org. And if you want to get a taste for what we're doing, you can go to channelzed.org that has a bunch of Q and A's for our shows that we are developing right now that will be a part of the meeting in October. And we're doing these live streams pretty much every Monday at 10:30 in the morning, our time, which is Pacific 10:30 Pacific, 1:30 Eastern. [Dave: Yep] So check it out. We're on YouTube, on Facebook, on Twitter, live streaming, and you can actually chat with us through YouTube and Facebook while we are live streaming. We would love to hear from you.

Dave:                                                  01:22:27                                          That's right. Also buy stuff.

Athena :                                               01:22:29                                          Oh, yes. Yeah. Buy merch. So t-shirts, stickers. I've got my, I got a little pile of stickers right there. [Dave: Oh. Nice] Yeah. So you could buy one, I'll send you one.

Dave:                                                  01:22:40                                          All right. [Laughs]

Dave:                                                  01:22:40                                          Um. Well, cool. And then where do they buy this? Where do they buy those?

Athena :                                               01:22:46                                          I'll all of that is at zombified.org.

Dave:                                                  01:22:49                                          Okay. zombified.org is a good place to start.

Athena:                                                01:22:51                                          Yeah. Zombified.org is a good place to start and then you can branch out in all sorts of directions from there.

Dave:                                                  01:22:58                                          Cool. [Athena: Yeah] Cool. Well, this was a lot of fun. Thanks.

Athena :                                               01:23:02                                          Agreed. Thank you for listening to zombified your source for fresh brains.

Outro:                                                 01:23:06                                          [Psychological by Lemi]