Rae Woods (00:02):
From Advisory Board, we're bringing you a Radio Advisory, your weekly download on how to untangle healthcare's most pressing challenges. My name is Rachel Woods. You can call me Rae.

(00:13):
Last week in part one of our series on value-based care, we talked about health systems taking on risk and frankly, we talked about why the path forward for value-based care looks a little bit different for different organizations, for different stakeholders in healthcare. Take Humana for example. They are very much pursuing value-based care. In fact, so much so that they've actually announced that they're exiting the employer market entirely. They're essentially going all in on senior-focused care, and they're doing that in part with their provider arm, which is called CenterWell. They're really at the helm of these efforts.

(00:52):
The question that I have is what does it take to effectively manage senior populations, and how do you do that in the face of very real market pressures? Well, instead of me speculating on that alone, I've actually invited Dr. Sanjay Shetty, who is the President of CenterWell. He's here to discuss why he believes they're positioned for success and why he's betting on their long-term plan in spite of near-term industry pressures. Sanjay, welcome to Radio Advisory.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (01:25):
Thanks for having me.

Rae Woods (01:26):
I have to start by saying I think I'm either a little bit early or a little bit late, but I think it's your anniversary, right? It's been about a year since you've taken charge of CenterWell. Right?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (01:37):
That's right. I'm just about to hit my one-year anniversary. I started, I think it was March 27th, so I'm right there.

Rae Woods (01:44):
I don't want to assume as we get started in this conversation that the Radio Advisory audience knows exactly what CenterWell is, what they do, what their ambition is in healthcare. I want you to kind of speak directly to our listeners. Tell us what CenterWell is, where it sits in healthcare, and what are kind of the essential features of CenterWell that really position it for success in value-based care.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (02:07):
Absolutely. CenterWell is Humana's care delivery organization. It's been built really to meet the unique health needs of the senior population. Right now it's composed of three parts. It's a CenterWell senior-focused primary care, which is the largest senior-focused primary care organization in the country.

Rae Woods (02:24):
That's right.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (02:24):
300 clinics serving-

Rae Woods (02:28):
Wow.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (02:28):
300,000 members. We also have CenterWell Home Health, which is operating in 38 states, over 350 branches, and CenterWell Pharmacy, which does both the pharmacy benefit management work for Humana, but also has a very large mail order pharmacy, a specialty pharmacy, hospice pharmacy, and a small set of retail pharmacies.

(02:45):
All of that put together sort of creates this care delivery organization that we're working on for Humana. It's all rooted in the tenets of value-based care and emphasis on delivering on outcomes for the seniors that we serve, and really focusing on what can we do to create a sort of special integrated, differentiated experience that allows us to really execute on better outcomes and better quality for our patients.

Rae Woods (03:10):
For your patients, who are ... You said it, are seniors, and I want you to name specifically why is it the right move to focus on senior care? Why is that the right thing for the patients that you serve? Frankly, why is it important for your business model?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (03:27):
From a just demographic perspective, there's a need for senior care. If you look across the country, we're at 55 million folks 65 years or older. By 2040, I think that's going to grow to 80 million. This is a hugely significant market opportunity just from a pure business perspective. But keep in mind too, that the care for these patients is going to become more complex. There's a large number of seniors who have two or more chronic conditions, and the number of geriatricians who are out there in the country continues to dwindle. I think we're now down to one geriatrician for every 10,000 seniors.

(03:59):
For us, it really felt like because Humana is such a strong player in the Medicare Advantage space, where we've already shown excellence when it comes to taking care of seniors and managing senior care, our focus in care delivery is to really double down on that effort and to create a care environment that is special and different relative to the rest of the industry, and again, aligns with what Humana has done well for a long time, which is helping shift providers towards value-based care. For CenterWell, we're working both within Medicare Advantage where there's been a ton of innovation, but we're also working with fee-for-service ACO constructs. We're actively thinking about value-based care on both sides.

Rae Woods (04:36):
You're multi-payer. You're not just working with Humana members, right?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (04:40):
That's right. That's right. That's an important distinction. While Humana, just like Humana works with many different providers, of which CenterWell is one, CenterWell works with many different payers, of which Humana is one. We consider ourselves part of that senior-focused care continuum, and we know from our patients' perspective that there's a lot to be gained by this model.

(05:00):
For example, we just did a study, and we presented it at Academy Health. It's actually submitted for publication. When we look at senior-focused primary care, we know that not just CenterWell, but other cohort of providers like us, seniors who are in a senior-focused primary care model benefit from more PCP visits; fewer hospitalizations, I think 8%; fewer emergency room visits, and it gets even larger when you think about avoidable hospitalizations and emergency room visits. We know that the model works even when you compare it to other value-based providers, which is what makes this so exciting.

Rae Woods (05:32):
It's clear to me that your benchmark for success, your definition of what I guess I would say, winning in the senior-focused primary care market is really based on those outcomes changes in value-based care models. I also have to imagine that there's a financial side to it too. How would you define what your goal for success looks like?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (05:53):
Yeah, so you're absolutely right. I think one of our aspirations in bringing these different care organizations together under one banner is to deliver on a differentiated and improved outcome. If we're just pulling them together for back office efficiency, that's not the story we're trying to tell.

Rae Woods (06:09):
That might be the story that helps business, but to your point, it's not the story that's ultimately going to help the people, right?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (06:14):
Right. I would argue actually helping the people ultimately helps the business, right?

Rae Woods (06:17):
Yes.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (06:18):
By keeping the patient at the center of every one of our conversations and how we're rethinking the care delivery model, I believe it's going to help us, we know deliver on better outcomes. That itself has a financial return when it comes to managing total cost of care and improving quality, but also will help us with retention and growth. Because one of our aspirations for what is success for CenterWell is we want to continue to grow this model to be able to have access to this model in more parts of the country to serve, again, Humana members, but also members from other payers for whom we want to be a great partner.

(06:48):
For us, success is delivering on that aspiration of a truly different integrated model. It's to continue to grow and to continue to provide access to care. I would argue one of the big things that I'm excited about is the fact that CenterWell is doubling down on communities that have had difficulty accessing primary care. In our hometown in Louisville, Kentucky, on the West Side, we partnered with the Louisville Urban League, and we were able to open a clinic in a community that really hadn't had access to high quality primary care. Those are the kinds of communities that are going to benefit most by having true longitudinal relationships, true team-based care, and an orientation towards value.

Rae Woods (07:24):
I want to double down on something that you're saying, which is that the population size is huge and needs something different than the status quo approach to care. Some of the things you've already named. We need to focus on pharmacy, we need to focus on home health. You mentioned longer visits. If I drill down kind of a layer, what are the other things we need to name that are different in this approach? I'm thinking the panel size, the care team, maybe what our listeners who aren't only focused on seniors also can do as they're trying to make the most of this changing demographic size.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (07:57):
Yeah. I think it starts just as you described it. It's the fact that we have this privilege of being in a senior-focused model that is completely dedicated to value-based care. It allows us to design a clinic in a completely different way. The physical location. Our clinics are designed for seniors. The exam tables are at a lower level that seniors can quickly access.

Rae Woods (08:18):
I would not have thought of that. How do you make it easier for somebody to just get even on an exam table?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (08:23):
Right. It's amazing what a difference it can make because it also allows for the clinician to say, "You can sit, you can lie down," and it takes away from that need of, "We're going to have a whole process now to get you roomed into a location." We also have amazing community rooms in every one of our centers that allow for us to, in addition to the clinical care, provide for activities like exercise, social. That's how we address the whole person care of creating connection, allowing our staff to get eyes on our patients more frequently, allowing us to really understand what their other barriers to care might be.

(08:55):
It starts with physical. I think the care team is another huge part of our model. We have behavioral health, integrated pharmacists, community health workers, social workers. That entire team is wrapping around the patient to provide that holistic team-based approach to senior care so that our providers can focus on what they do best. But then there's a whole team of folks who are really thinking about what is going on with that patient? What are the other things that are getting in the way for them seeking their best health?

(09:21):
Then certainly I would say data and analytics play a huge role in this. When you're managing populations at scale, as we are doing, understanding what is going on with that population allows us to target certain interventions to best effect. If you try to spread these interventions like peanut butter across all 300,000 of our patients, it just won't work. You'll never be able to drive the return. You'll never be able to even show the effectiveness of the intervention. What you need to be able to do is test and learn into certain scenarios where those interventions make sense, and that's where the data and analytics are huge from a programmatic perspective, but also to serve back to our clinicians to help them understand how they're performing and what they can be doing better to manage their patients every single day.

(10:01):
Then in the longer run, we're trying to do a lot to supercharge the model. We're investing in things that will help us improve back office operations. I mean, I know it's a podcast, so I have to say generative AI at least once. There's certainly a lot going on with respect to generative AI, both at front of house, how we're thinking about how clinicians engage with patients and how to make the burden of the work that they're doing sort of easier so they can really focus on the patient, but also on the back office, so we have more resources to invest back in care. We're also thinking about new payment models. How do we align the incentives between all the parties in this model to really align them around value and certainly investing in continued growth because we really believe in the model, and we want to see it expand.

Rae Woods (10:41):
That is quite the laundry list. I want to be clear that CenterWell is far from the only senior-focused primary care provider in the United States. But there's kind of one big differentiator that I'm seeing between CenterWell and some of the other players here. It's actually the last thing that you just named. It's your growth trajectory. CenterWell continues to really have its foot on the gas there where I'm not sure that your competitors do. If you've been tracking some of the headlines, we've seen other senior-focused primary care clinics slow their growth trajectory. Some of them are even actively shrinking, actively divesting. To be honest, when they make these announcements, when they say why, they are citing some of the market forces that I know CenterWell also has to face and a business model that is getting squeezed. Demographics that aren't just aging into the kind of Medicare population, but are getting much older, much sicker. My question for you is, how actually is it that CenterWell can keep their foot on the gas when others aren't making that same bet?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (11:50):
Yeah, it's a great question. I would say first, there is a conviction on our side that this is a population that deserves this level of care and that the market is absolutely going to support it in the long run. You're absolutely right that there are headwinds facing much of the industry. But luckily for us, we had the scale and also frankly, some of the long-term thinking that said, "We're going to invest in our model from soup to nuts." That was really a process we went through last year that continues to say, "We believe although there are these headwinds that we're going to be able to find our way past the headwinds fully within the course of a couple of years," which allows us to maintain this conviction that continuing to grow this model will pay dividends because all it does is continue to expand the base upon which these standardized clinical programs and standardized investments across a broad base will continue to bear fruit.

(12:38):
Yeah, we are absolutely on a growth trajectory, and this is true both for primary care but also for home health and for pharmacy. What we have to do in order to support these populations is on this growth trajectory. Speaking specifically of primary care, we're excited that in '24 we've announced several new markets. We're going into Asheville, North Carolina, a couple of [inaudible 00:12:56] in Louisiana, and we continue to talk about our aspirations to grow by 30 to 50 new centers a year. It's been amazing. We celebrated our 250th center in June of '22, and we're already past 300.

Rae Woods (13:09):
Wow.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (13:10):
That speed of execution, again, we've gotten it down. We know where to go, we know how to do it, and the intent is to take advantage of the scope and scale that we've created within in order to really improve the clinical model of what we're delivering. This is all in service of the patient, all in service of being able to empower our clinicians to do the very best things to really wrap around the patient and deliver on whole health.

Rae Woods (13:34):
I appreciate that you are keeping the long-term vision as the center of the bullseye. We know that this is the long-term plan here. That said, that doesn't actually make it easier in the short term to make business decisions, to make difficult choices, to make trade-offs. I almost want you to speak directly to the health leaders. How do you as a leader practically hold true to that plan of this is the long-term goal when there are market conditions that are getting harder? How do you do that in the actual decisions that you're making as a leader?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (14:11):
Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, it really comes back to that keeping the patient at the center in the decisions that we're making. As we start to refocus, and this is a process again we went through last year as we sort of saw the headwinds coming, we reevaluated the entire operation. Nothing was sacred, but if the guiding light in all of those conversations was, "All right, does this serve the patient? Is it going to improve care? Will it allow us to continue on this growth trajectory," it actually helped clarify a lot of things that frankly were waste in the old world, or which were not as efficient or as appropriate in the old world, and allowed us to really refocus on how are we managing the high-risk patients? How are we thinking about all of the ways in which there is waste in the system outside the four walls of the primary care organization that we as a primary care organization can actually go about addressing?

(15:03):
It also spurred us to really think differently about the fact that we do have these three different care models under one roof. Driving collaboration between primary care and home and saying-

Rae Woods (15:13):
Yes.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (15:13):
"Primary care team, you have these aspirations to help your patients outside of the clinic. You've got an entire country covered by CenterWell Home Health with nurses who could knock on a door, who could engage to understand social determinants of health, who could be an extension of the care team in the clinic." It actually got the teams working together even faster. It was another way for us to think creatively and get out of the silos.

Rae Woods (15:39):
I appreciate your kind of willingness to say there are some things that need to change or some things that we need to not do, and it's about grounding those decisions in the confidence of your long-term strategy rather than being distracted by the near term kind of market shocks.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (15:54):
That's right. I would say an important part of that too is building a change management sort of function within the organization that allows you to do that well. One of the most important insights I think from us is involving the clinicians in that conversation from the get-go, helping them understand what is coming, why things may have to change, but reminding them of that focus that the patient is always at the center, that is very empowering, and I think really energizing for the clinicians. Frankly, some of our great ideas have come from that crowdsourcing of how we can do things better.

Rae Woods (16:27):
Which is probably especially important for folks in your shoes because I know that the clinicians who have chosen to work with you to kind of hang their hat on the CenterWell model are the ones that absolutely believe in the senior-focused model and in the patient outcome, so then let's engage them in the strategy so that we're actually able to make forward progress and so that we're actually able to make some of the difficult trade-offs because we know that's why they've chosen to work with us versus any other kind of organization.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (16:55):
That's right. That's right. Part of the benefit is that we're doing our best to keep that promise. Keeping the panel sizes at a manageable number, keeping the visit lengths as they are, and making those investments to say, "We know your time is the most valuable thing in your day." That's why the care team, that's why technology, these other elements are so important to saying, "We support you and we understand the world that you're working in. Help us find ways to continue to invest in that experience for you as a clinician."

Rae Woods (17:22):
But what I am hearing you say is that some things do change, even small things need to change given the business climate, given some of the trade-offs that you need to make so that you can stick to this long-term big picture strategy. I have to ask, what is changing within the CenterWell strategy?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (17:43):
I would actually say it's not that a lot is changing. It's really doubling down on the core tenets. It's that sense of going back to basics, understanding the care model, understanding how one succeeds in value-based care and doubling down on those elements, but also frankly accelerating if anything. It's sort of saying what we thought we might've had five years to accomplish, we're now going to try to do in one or two because we have to in order to [inaudible 00:18:07]-

Rae Woods (18:07):
Oh, interesting.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (18:07):
The headwinds. My argument would be it's actually been an accelerant for us in terms of pushing forward our strategy of integrating the assets from a clinical care delivery model in accelerating some of the work that we're doing to focus on how we manage the clinics, how we operate the care management models. Rather than sort of focusing on it's forcing us to change, if anything, it's allowing us to accelerate and build that momentum behind, hey guys, we can do this, we can do it fast, and we're going to involve you in that change to make it successful.

Rae Woods (20:29):
Is there a decision that you've had to be at the helm of in your time, and I know it's only been a year here, that has been tricky or has required some trade-offs that you want to name to kind of help our listeners make sense of their own trade-offs that they need to make as trying to push, perhaps not as fast, but towards kind of a similar approach to knowing that there is a group of patients that need differentiated care?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (20:56):
There have obviously been a number of decisions that have happened along the way. I mean, some of the ones that have been most crucial are pivoting the ways in which we were approaching care management and really thinking about how we focus on some of our highest risk members in a slightly different way. It's been investing in the integrated pharmacists and the clinical health workers to sort of provide those additional wraparound services. Those were hard decisions only because again, we had to sort of pull forward pilots that probably would've come further down the pike and sort of a willingness to say, "We're going to take the hit in the short run," but allow us to sort of accelerate the model.

Rae Woods (21:35):
No, wait. I just don't want to discount that for a second. That's such an important thing that you just said. It's the recognition that we might need to take the hit in the short run in order to make the most in the long term. The difficult decision is recognizing what is working soon, pulling it forward to accelerate it rather than continuing at current course and speed. That's a very, very important, and that is certainly a difficult task to come to as a leader.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (21:59):
I'm really proud of specifically the primary care team, but frankly, our home health team is working through its own set of headwinds and rethinking the model of delivering home care in a value-based approach. Many of our teams are sort of really thinking through the priorities of run the business, optimize the business, grow the business, and continue to integrate the business. All three of those as being sort of key parts of the strategy going forward and doing a great job of balancing that at a really sort of accelerating pace of change, which can be difficult specifically in a clinical organization.

Rae Woods (22:33):
I have to ask you to name specifically ... It doesn't sound like there is any kind of nervousness in the fact that Humana, CenterWell have really said, "We're going to go all in on senior care," even saying that they're going to get out of the employer market, and there doesn't seem to be any hesitation. Again, we're pulling the strategy forward and accelerating the strategy amidst a, I'm not going to say difficult, but a changing, a changing kind of environment, particularly in Medicare Advantage, and there doesn't seem to be any hesitation there.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (23:07):
Yeah, I mean, I would say a couple of things about that. First off, just to speak broadly about Medicare Advantage, we are really bullish on what Medicare Advantage represents for our patients. Despite the sort of temporary headwinds, patients are choosing with their elections. They're coming to Medicare Advantage because of the benefits that it provides, because of the differentiated experience that they're getting, because of that ability to access things that just aren't available under traditional models.

(23:34):
We believe ultimately that the patients will rule the day and that the [inaudible 00:23:39] choosing into Medicare Advantage are going to really help other stakeholders in the ecosystem understand the value that we've been created. I'm frankly really proud of the fact that the MA plans writ large have really been a source of incredible innovation in this space. If you look at value-based care, MA has pushed that forward. If you look at interoperability, MA has pushed that forward. There's a lot that has happened under the auspices of MA that really speak to the value of the program and the importance of continuing to support that care model. When it comes to CenterWell, our current focus is very much on senior-focused care.

Rae Woods (24:12):
There's one other thing that I will admit makes me a little bit nervous about focusing on senior care kind of specifically, and that is that we know that this demographic group is huge as we've described, but it is also changing in and of itself. It is not just the kind of young seniors turning 65, continuing to go out and play with their grandkids and play golf, whatever it might be, but they are also getting older, they are getting sicker. I'm curious as we start to shift our model towards what might actually look like the elder care business, not the senior care business, are there things that you're looking to that need to change clinically or financially to continue to support this long-term bet?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (24:57):
Yeah. A couple of things that really come to mind first and foremost. First, I think as an industry writ large we have to continue to invest in workforce development. There is going to be a need for more people to serve seniors; that is well-trained medical professionals, but then all of the other support staff that sits.

Rae Woods (25:14):
Yes.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (25:15):
Around that ecosystem-

Rae Woods (25:16):
Yes.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (25:16):
So that we can provide care in a more efficient way that really allows an entire care team integrated approach to how we're thinking about things.

(25:24):
Second, we have to continue to innovate in care delivery. I'm really proud of the fact that we've pulled even more tightly than most models of the home and the primary care organizations, but we're going to continue to push forward in ways that will allow patients, this increasingly aging cohort, increasingly complex cohort to receive care in the settings and the environments where they deserve. That's going to be continuing to pursue more home-based models, continuing to think about other ways that we can supplement our care teams with technology to allow them to care for populations at a larger level.

(25:59):
I think we also have to continue to foster that culture of integrated care where we're really pulling all of the different pieces of the healthcare ecosystem around the patient. The current system is frankly a mess, right?

Rae Woods (26:10):
Yes.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (26:10):
It is so fragmented, it is so hard to navigate, and if we're going to do this at bigger and bigger scale, we have to pull those pieces together so that we can allow all the care teams to really do what's best for the patient and not allow our patients to get sort of stuck in the cracks.

Rae Woods (26:24):
You know, I'm definitely thinking about the fact that a lot of the Radio Advisory listeners don't have the luxury of doing this kind of singular focus on a population like CenterWell has. I'd love for you to take a moment and give some lessons to the providers. I'm thinking the medical groups, the health systems, the hospitals who certainly see senior patients, and they certainly have MA contracts, but also have to serve the rest of the population. What's kind of your advice for them?

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (26:52):
It's an interesting one, one I haven't thought a lot about. But I would say first and foremost, it's making sure that your incentives and your models are starting to move, if not already done, towards value-based care. To the degree that's possible, that in and of itself will begin to unlock a ton with how you think about the model, how you're thinking about your investments. In the absence of that, if you are stuck in a pure fee-for-service model, senior care will be very, very difficult.

Rae Woods (27:22):
Yeah. Or a one-size-fits-all model. We have seen specialization within primary care, perhaps not to the same extent that you've described, but recognizing that there's a population that needs a different care team, that needs more time with their clinician, that needs different services than frankly what I need from my primary care provider.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (27:41):
It's fostering environments where seniors can really pivot towards longitudinal relationships, towards having access to a care team. You're absolutely right. That is not what's going to serve the young patient who is thinking transactionally and that is not really focused on that.

(27:57):
But we know that in the long run, that value-based care model is going to drive a ton of goodness for the system at large, both for the patients, but also for society at large. If you even look at Humana, just an example, Humana's Value-Based Care Report. We know that patients have higher satisfaction levels when they're in value-based care model, we know that they're going to have better outcomes, fewer admissions, fewer inpatient days. They're going to have better access. They're going to see their primary care doctor more, and they're going to have that ability to have not just the easy conversations, "Help me with my problem today," but frankly, the harder conversations that we need them to have; thinking about end of life planning, thinking about lifestyle changes, thinking about social determinants of health. Those don't happen in a context of a 15-minute visit.

(28:41):
Then finally, we know that in the aggregate value-based care delivers reduction in total medical costs, and as a society, we need to embrace that. Although it's not necessarily advice just for those providers who are seeing a heterogeneous patient population, I think it's important for us to keep that in mind as we're as a society grappling with how do we take care of seniors well as that population continues to grow.

Rae Woods (29:04):
Yeah. Well, I appreciate the conversation so much. I feel like we could keep talking. But my last question for you is really about what's next. I'd love for you to tell us what's next for CenterWell and frankly, what you're most excited about as you enter your second year at the helm of CenterWell.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (29:21):
Well, I really appreciate the question. Well, I mean, I would say first and foremost, it's continuing to get a chance to engage with the teams out in the field. It's been an amazing privilege for me in my first year on the job to sort of be the new guy getting to wander around the country. But meeting the clinicians, meeting our patients, it's just been amazing to see what our model does every single day at scale. That's something I'm really looking forward to doing next year.

(29:42):
I'm also looking to see the continuation of that acceleration I talked about. Pilots that we're starting in the fall are now really bearing fruit, and we're seeing how the teams on the ground are saying, "Wow, I didn't realize that by being part of a daily huddle with the primary care team, that we as a home health team can really have an impact, and that we can be part of this team-based approach." Seeing that accelerate and blossom across the country is going to be really, really exciting. I'm looking forward to making a few more bets in terms of how we continue to grow our capabilities as an organization. I'm really looking forward to having that opportunity going forward.

Rae Woods (30:17):
Well, no pressure, but we're going to be watching what those bets are and how they play out at Advisory Board and on Radio Advisory. But I just want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been a really fun conversation.

Dr. Sanjay Shetty (30:28):
I really appreciate it. Great to have a chance to chat.

Rae Woods (30:36):
There's a lot that all of us can learn from understanding what different populations need in primary care. Today, we focused on seniors, but the bigger takeaway for me is the recognition that one-size-fits-all primary care doesn't work for anyone, and there's a lot that all of you can do to make care better for the senior population specifically. Remember, as always, we are here to help.

(31:24):
If you like Radio Advisory, please share it with your networks. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and leave a rating and a review. Radio Advisory is a production of Advisory Board. This episode was produced by me, Rae Woods, as well as Abby Burns, Kristin Myers, and Atticus Raasch. The episode was edited by Katy Anderson with technical support provided by Dan Tayag, Chris Phelps, and Joe Shrum. Additional support was provided by Carson Sisk, Leanne Elston, and Erin Collins. We'll see you next week.