Rae Woods (00:02):
From Advisory Board, we are bringing you a Radio Advisory. My name is Rachel Woods, you can call me Rae. I'm guessing by now that you've heard the phrase Quiet Quitting. The concept has frankly blown up on social media and it's based on the idea that some employees just aren't willing to give more to their organizations. And if you've seen the headlines, you've probably seen some of the backlash. So today I want to cut through the noise. I'm bringing you two parts to this episode. In the first half, I sit down with Joe Folkman, the co-founder and president of Zenger Folkman, a firm specializing in leadership. And in the second half, Advisory Board researchers, Rachel Zuckerman and Allyson Paiewonsky, talk about how this concept plays out differently in clinical and non-clinical settings. Let's start with Joe. Joe, welcome to Radio Advisory. I want to know, are you on TikTok?

Joe Folkman (01:03):
I am not. I'm not on TikTok.

Rae Woods (01:05):
Well, if you're not, but if you're not on TikTok, how did you even find out about the term Quiet Quitting, because it originated on social media, right?

Joe Folkman (01:12):
This is the reason you have children.

Rae Woods (01:16):
To learn about the latest social media trend?

Joe Folkman (01:19):
Listen, I managed to not be on Facebook or Instagram either.

Rae Woods (01:24):
Congratulations.

Joe Folkman (01:25):
I just have avoided that because I just hear all the stories about how much time people waste and I've got enough waste to waste time.

Rae Woods (01:35):
Oh man. I mean I can confirm that, it does tend to be a time suck.

(01:51):
How did you learn about the term Quiet Quitting? What does that actually mean? Is it just, "We've got lazy employees, folks. We've got to worry about that"?

Joe Folkman (02:00):
Yeah, my son gave me a heads up and my daughter also, they both said this would be a great article for you. And... "What's Quiet Quitting?" And it's...

Rae Woods (02:12):
And they pulled out their phones.

Joe Folkman (02:13):
Yeah. They said, "Oh, it's people unwilling to do more, unwilling to, they think they've been over lowered, overwhelmed. And so they're at five o'clock, it's over. They're not going to do a thing more". And I said, "That's interesting. We've been measuring that for 20 years."

Rae Woods (02:34):
Yeah, you've been measuring this as part of your work and doing these 360 assessments about leadership.

Joe Folkman (02:40):
Right.

Rae Woods (02:40):
But I want to make sure I'm getting the tone of this term right. If it's kind of "I'm done, hands up at five o'clock". There's been some that say, "Hey, that's actually a good thing because five o'clock should be time to be with your family or do your hobbies, or whatever it might be". And there are others that say, "We want to get more out of our employees and that's not actually enough". What is the right way to take the tone of this term Quiet Quitting?

Joe Folkman (03:07):
Well, I mean a lot of people have heard it as the unwillingness of people to give you a hundred percent. There's a pushback and one of my clients over the years has given people additional responsibilities every year. And so they downsize and at the same time they say, "Okay, now this person just left, you pick up their stuff". And there's some terrible resentment about that. I mean...

Rae Woods (03:35):
Sure.

Joe Folkman (03:36):
That people just go, they feel like they're indentured servants and the master has given them more, that kind of feeling of that, we're not in this together, you're being oppressed. All that kind of negative feeling that comes from that, too much of that.

Rae Woods (03:55):
And I think you're getting at the pushback that I saw on social media. I mean, you said your son shared this with you, your daughter. I saw it on my social media circles. My family brought it up. And the pushback is around the idea that Quiet Quitting is bad. People were saying, no Quiet Quitting is good because it just means you are setting reasonable boundaries for work that, that client who we're not going to name the name of, says, "No, you need to hire more people or you need to pay me more. That is the only way that I am going to do more work". And people were kind of trying to take back this term that originated more as, Quiet quitting is bad. We don't want somebody to Quiet Quit, to people pushing back and saying, "No, I am just exerting reasonable boundaries around my work and my life."

Joe Folkman (04:42):
And I would say that's good. I mean, I think when employees come back and say, "I'm overwhelmed, I can't get my work done. I'm committing errors and there's problems with, I just, there's too much to do". As a leader, as a manager, I'd say, "Gosh, let's look at your workload and let's see if we can take some load off of you". I think that's a reasonable thing to do.

Rae Woods (05:05):
So then what do you want managers to do? What is the right kind of outcome or the right thing that you want leaders and managers to get out of their employees?

Joe Folkman (05:16):
Well, this idea of energy. And what's fascinating is, if you ask people, "What would you like to do right now, if you had your choice? Would you like to have a really difficult assignment or would you like to be on the beach having a soda or a drink and just sipping away?" Most people say, "Well, I'd like to do is the beach", right?

Rae Woods (05:41):
Oh yeah.

Joe Folkman (05:45):
And this is how strange people are. If you look at engagement and happiness, and if you look at people who've been given a very challenging and difficult assignment and then after they say, "How engaged were you? How happy were you?" And they go, "I loved my job. I was so... I just felt like I could conquer anything, I could do anything different". "But did you have a spare time and enough time for yourself?" "Oh no, I was overwhelmed, but I accomplished something that I didn't think I could do. That challenge really, I loved it and it made me feel important. It made me feel like I could do things. I'm a master of the universe, that kind of feeling."

Rae Woods (06:35):
Yeah.

Joe Folkman (06:35):
So we're strange in that when we are given chores we don't want to do, we feel oppressed, right?

Rae Woods (06:44):
Yeah.

Joe Folkman (06:44):
And when we're given challenges that cause us to kind of dig in and do more, we feel like we are the kings of the universe and queens of the universe and we can just take on anything. So that's the human condition. And part of this is that the leaders, I don't think you should pressure employees and try to get more out of them. But I do think, if you can get them engaged in meaningful work, in work that makes a difference in work, that has value, in work that they see the value, that makes or.

(07:21):
. Their mental health has never been higher.

Rae Woods (07:25):
Yeah. So I'm struck by your use of the term energy here actually, because having a big burst of energy for dealing with a complex problem, a difficult client, a project at work, a highly complex clinical case, whatever it might be, requires this big burst of energy that can actually help fuel people. I've certainly felt that, I'm sure our listeners have felt that too, where you feel like you're making a difference, you feel like you're accomplishing something, you feel like you're working as a team, all of those good things. Even though, it is also something that is draining and that can be really difficult for leaders because I can see a world where you want to encourage these bursts of energy, but also the reality that you can't keep up that pace forever. That's especially where the problems start coming when it comes to work-life balance. So how do you manage the two? You generate meaningful bursts of energy while making sure that employees also have time to recharge.

Joe Folkman (08:29):
Part of this is giving people control. If people feel like they're not in control and they can't choose, that really affects how they feel about what they do. If they can choose to do an assignment and choose not to do an assignment, boy that makes a lot of difference. Now, that being said, we all do stuff we don't want to do. We all have chores, right? And there's a certain amount of that, that's just part of the workday. I love to do interviews and talk and do those things and I don't like to kind of go through my email and I don't like to do research done for other people that I don't think is very interesting, that's hard. And actually, I don't love to write, that's hard work, right? But when...

Rae Woods (09:22):
You're talking to a podcast host, I like to talk.

Joe Folkman (09:27):
Yeah. But when it's done, I kind of like it. I mean think, "Oh wow, that's good". So it is funny and it's a little bit like a whole dilemma of exercise, isn't it? I mean, it isn't fun when we're doing it. Good grief, you're huffing and puffing and it's hard, but that's how we get in shape and build muscle. And in order to build muscle, you have to push yourself, you have to give... And I was doing it this morning and I didn't want to, but I did it anyway and that's because, "Boy, I sure feel good when I've done", and that makes me feel better and it makes my morning work better.

Rae Woods (10:02):
You brought up this term about meaningful work, and I actually think it fits into the exercise analogy because people who exercise consistently are, even though it's hard, and even though their heart rate is going and their sweating and they're sweating and all of that, they're doing an activity that they like, whether that's running or swimming or dance or martial arts or whatever it is. And so how do we make sure that these bursts of energy, not always, but tend to also generate or be part of meaningful work?

Joe Folkman (10:38):
So I did some research last week on this whole idea of energy and what creates it. And I found that there were five leadership behaviors that really help you to get that energy. Number one is the ability to inspire, right? Now managers are great at pushing, telling, do this all over...

Rae Woods (11:01):
Got to get it done.

Joe Folkman (11:02):
Yeah, now, more. But they're not so good at pulling, not so good at bringing the energy and the excitement and "Gee, we ought to do this and would this be great?" And so that's the first one, this whole idea of energy and instead of pushing, pulling,

Rae Woods (11:23):
So this idea of pulling is getting more out of people. But what I'm hearing you say, it's not in a Ebenezer Scrooge kind of way, "You have to work until the bell, the evening of Christmas Eve". But how you pull more out of people in an inspiring way.

Joe Folkman (11:40):
Right, yeah. And the second one is setting stretch goals. Now if you ask people what they want, it's like, "Give me easy goals, things I can accomplish". But when people do something meaningful and significant, they love it. I mean because it proves to them that they're special, right? "Look, I did this thing, I did a hard thing and I made a difference". The third thing is communicating a clear vision, "Here's where we're going, here's why we're going there. Doing this makes a difference. Have you ever done something?" You said, "This is just going in the garbage. I mean, why are we doing this? This is stupid", right? But that vision and when leaders do that, they point people to where we're going, that makes a big difference. The fourth thing is collaboration. This cooperative team, you ever been on a team you love to be in, right? A team...

Rae Woods (12:40):
Absolutely.

Joe Folkman (12:40):
Where you go, "I love coming to work". You ever been on the team from hell?

Rae Woods (12:45):
Also, yes.

Joe Folkman (12:47):
You didn't want to come to work, it was like, "Ah!". But just having that team around you and again, you see this on football fields all the time. People are pulling together and they're helping each other. The last thing and maybe one of the most important things is trust, "I trust my leader". They're not trying to pull my leg, they're not trying to get me to do stuff that... I think what they're doing is honest and they wouldn't do something that hurt me, that kind of thing, or to oppress me or they're not doing something negative to me. So that's the fifth thing. What we find is if you do these five things, the thing is that this Quiet Quitting is not equal across the board. If you look at people who don't do these five things, about 18% of their employees want to Quiet Quit.

Rae Woods (13:45):
Want to just do whatever they have to do to not get fired.

Joe Folkman (13:48):
Absolutely, but nothing more. But if people do these five things, it's 2%. So this isn't... Across the board, people aren't quietly quitting, they're quietly quitting most of the time the leaders who are not doing these things, who are not very effective in these things.

Rae Woods (14:08):
And so I hear that when managers and leaders can inspire, can enable trust, can do these principles that you're talking about, they can, not just minimize the rate of people who are just doing the bare minimum, but they could also get more out of people, get these bursts of energy for this meaningful work, et cetera. Help me balance that. How do leaders also enable rest and recovery? I'm thinking back to that exercise analogy. I might get a huge burst of energy. I love trail running to literally run up a hill or a mountain. But usually when I get to the top I'm breathing so hard that I could not keep going up. I need to have a downhill, I need to walk, I need to take in the view, I need to rest.

Joe Folkman (14:56):
What's interesting about it is, have you ever just gone to lunch at work and just had a great lunch and everybody has loved being there. It was fun, just a hang out and stuff and you took an hour but it was restful. It didn't feel like work. Part of this is just trying to find a way to break the day up, to open some things up. What's fascinating for me is, they're in the pandemic, I was the only one that came to the office. It's close to my house and I'd just come in and I was there alone. And unusually, in the afternoon I'd take a walk. Now I would never do that when the employees were here because like that, that I'm being a bad example, "Where are you going?" "To take a walk." But that walk was amazing for me. I mean, I just came back with all good ideas and this is what I'm going to do and I figure stuff out on the walk.

Rae Woods (15:54):
You kind of gave yourself and then gave others permission.

Joe Folkman (15:58):
Yeah.

Rae Woods (15:59):
Right?

Joe Folkman (15:59):
Yeah.

Rae Woods (16:00):
And I wonder if that's also a leader's responsibility. The principles that you just outlined, let me try to remember all five, I know I'm going to mess this up. So you're going to have to bring in, there's inspiring people, there's enabling trust...

Joe Folkman (16:14):
Setting stretch goals.

Rae Woods (16:15):
Setting stretch goals.

Joe Folkman (16:17):
Communicate the vision and direction.

Rae Woods (16:19):
Communicating the vision and collaboration, right?

Joe Folkman (16:21):
Yeah.

Rae Woods (16:22):
Being a team. I wonder if of not all of those principles can also be applied to rest. I trust that you will get your job done even if you actually take an hour, a real hour for lunch.

Joe Folkman (16:33):
Yeah.

Rae Woods (16:34):
Right? I am going to give you a goal of getting all of your work done so that you can take that Friday off or so that you can absolutely not bring your work phone on this vacation or whatever it might be. We work together as a team. So you know exactly who to delegate to. I imagine it has to also be leaders responsibility to get people to really take the time that they need to recover.

Joe Folkman (16:56):
Yeah. And that we have a relationship such that you'll tell me, that you'll be honest with me and say, "You know, I need a break". And it's like, "Great, take it". I mean part of this is, the trust sort of works that I don't believe you're taking advantage of me. I know one of my employees doesn't work 40 hours a week. She is incredibly smart. She can get stuff done so quickly, I don't care. Good grief, she does a great job and she gets her work done and I could care less, right? That I'm getting my ounces of flesh, that's like...

Rae Woods (17:38):
Right. Yeah, that's absolutely a bottle we should completely ignore.

Joe Folkman (17:42):
Right.

Rae Woods (17:42):
And a lot of your work and a lot of what we've been talking about is about the role of the direct manager, which is incredibly important.

Joe Folkman (17:50):
Right.

Rae Woods (17:50):
For the push that you mentioned, but also this pull that we've been discussing. But I have to believe there is a role for the organization writ large or for more senior leaders to actually put in some structures, not just to inspire and motivate people to give these births of energy, but also to ensure that there's meaningful rest. What's the role of the organization?

Joe Folkman (18:16):
Part of it that we feel that organizations don't do a good job of is they don't do a good job of giving the development opportunities to leaders to help them to know where they're at. If you ask a leader, "Are you one of the best leaders in the world or one of the worst?" They go, "I don't know, but I'm somewhere in between I think", right? They don't know if they're the worst leader in the world of the best. I mean, what's funny about this whole issue is, while they don't know, their direct reports do, because you feel it, you know you are working for the worst leader in the world. And if we can find a process to help people realize that, we know they can change, except they don't know they should. So getting them that learning experience is really important. And a lot of organizations just leave that to luck or sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you... Let's help leaders be better. Everybody has the right to work for a good boss, right?

Rae Woods (19:20):
Yeah.

Joe Folkman (19:21):
I think that's one of the rights that people ought to have in their life because when you work for a great boss, you know it and it's big difference. So supporting the development of people, I think is critical. Supporting the development of all people I think is critical. And not only the managers, but the employees and getting them the skills they need to communicate and share their insights with their manager is critical.

Rae Woods (19:54):
We'll be right back with more Radio Advisory after this short break.

(20:58):
Joe, we're having this conversation amidst a workforce crisis. And we've talked about this on this podcast before, that's shifting alignment between employers and employees. And the truth is that today's employees, they have the power. And a lot of employers are asking themselves, "How do I become the employer of choice?" My question is, how should organizations expectations change, given the realities of today's labor market? Or should they at all?

Joe Folkman (21:30):
One of the things they can do is just to be more responsive to their employees and trust them more. I mean, if you have those good leaders and what you see is those pockets of good leaders, great leaders in organizations, you'll see these outcomes, they get enhanced. Now here's the big terrible secret. Leadership is contagious. We found, if you have a bad boss, you are a worst leader, if you have a great boss, you're a better leader. I mean it pushes down or pulls them up. And so this whole thing starts at the top. If we have great leadership at the top of the organization, it pulls the whole organization up. If you have poor leadership, it pulls it down. A lot of CEOs believe they're in charge of the bottom line, the revenues. Well, that bottom line is affected by the engagement and trust of employees.

(22:34):
And the more they know that, the more they should look at it. Right now, there's this big dilemma, where some organizations are forcing people to come back and not, "You've been out of the office long enough. I rent this space, I want to fill it with bodies", right? Now, hospitals don't have that option of letting many people work from home, now some people do. But in a lot of corporate offices, they're forcing people to come back to the office and they don't want to. I just think that's shortsighted. I mean, all the data I have suggest that people are more productive working from home. So try to find that sweet spot for your company where you get the productivity you want and you have that environment that you want. People want to work for a company that makes a difference and that treats them fairly. And if you can do that, you're going to have a great product and you're going to have a great outcome and you're going to do well.

Rae Woods (23:38):
Well, when it comes to Quiet Quitting, what is the most important takeaway that you have for our listeners? What's the one thing you want them to know?

Joe Folkman (23:47):
Quiet Quitting depends more on the manager you work for than the employee who worked for them. If you work for a poor manager, the likelihood that you're going to be a Quiet Quitter is exponentially higher. If you work for a great leader, the probability's very low. So this has a lot to do with who you work for, more than just who you are.

Rae Woods (24:13):
Well Joe, thank you so much for coming on Radio Advisory.

Joe Folkman (24:16):
It's a delight. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed this conversation.

Rae Woods (24:25):
Now I want to bring our own Advisory Board expertise. I've brought two researchers. The first is Rachel Zuckerman. She works with HR and the healthcare workforce writ large. I've also brought Allyson Paiewonsky who works specifically with the nursing workforce. Rachel is dialing in from New York City and Allyson is from our home city of Washington, D.C. Had the two of you heard this term Quiet Quitting, either in your work or on social media?

Rachel Zuckerman (24:55):
A hundred percent. It's been coming up in the work a lot. I think it's a term that it was a really hot topic and it's on people's radars and they're hearing the term Quiet Quitting, but they don't know exactly what it means but they're worried about it and they're wondering if it's an issue in their workforce. So it's been coming up a lot.

Allyson Paiewonsky (25:14):
Yeah.

Rachel Zuckerman (25:15):
I don't know if it's come up for you, Allyson.

Allyson Paiewonsky (25:17):
Yeah, absolutely. I think in my personal life I've heard friends talking about it and then professional life as well. I think it's something that nurse leaders are coming to us and asking, "Is this something we should be concerned about with our workforce? You know, we're already understaffed. We can't afford for the staff that we have to be, operating at less than a hundred percent of their jobs."

Rae Woods (25:36):
I ask this to Joe too, and I want to ask you the same thing, what's the tone that these conversations are coming up in? Because I feel like the tone that I'm hearing in my personal social networks is very different than how I'm hearing about it from other leaders. Leaders are afraid of this happening, whereas my friends and my family are almost embracing the term and saying, "Yes, this is actually what I want", is because they're maybe incorrectly perceiving it as work-life balance.

Allyson Paiewonsky (26:05):
Professionally, I think a lot of leaders are viewing this as a negative and almost kind of painting their employees as lazy or not wanting to do their jobs. And I think, speaking with friends and family and just other people who are experiencing this, that's not necessarily what it is. I think people are just tired from the last two years that we've been through in this pandemic and it's really hard to process what we've been through and then also show up and bring your full self to work and do your day to day job on top of that.

Rachel Zuckerman (26:36):
Yes, totally. And I've been noticing a generational divide as well in the conversation. I think, healthcare leaders that have been in the industry for a long time, there's this sense that this is not how we approached work when we were starting out in our careers, versus people who are a bit earlier in their careers really viewing the term Quiet Quitting as claiming new boundaries and defining work in a new way. So I think that has been challenging in the conversation as well. People are coming to it with different meanings and different perceptions of what work means and what's good and what's bad.

Rae Woods (27:11):
And that's exactly why we wanted to sit down and have this conversation because it is a complex environment that is only made more difficult by the fact that there's this term that, let's be honest, it's triggering at worst and maybe confusing at best. So, what, from the conversation with Joe, did you hear where, as researchers you said, "Ah! Yes, that's exactly what I take away from this situation", that I want to make sure Radio Advisory listeners know?

Allyson Paiewonsky (27:36):
I think what Joe said about Quiet Quitting is just people unwilling to do more. I think if you look at what healthcare workers have been through across the pandemic and what that work environment has been like, it's really hard to want to go above and beyond and to do your job. That really in a sense is what Quiet Quitting is. But it's not a negative that people don't want to do more, it's just that people need that time to rest and recover. And I know that you got into that conversation at the end about what rest and recovery looks like, but I think that's really what the healthcare workforce is asking for right now when they are maybe what you view as Quiet Quitting as a leader.

Rachel Zuckerman (28:13):
Yeah, I completely agree with that, Allyson. I think just clarifying that in the conversation around Quiet Quitting, all of the ways to describe Quiet Quitting have kind of involved this conversation of what is the opposite thing and it's used phrases like going the extra mile or going above and beyond or putting in more at work. And so I think just of resetting that expectation of Quiet Quitting is actually just someone doing their job and what is expected of them, I think is a very important foundation to be working from to understand.

Rae Woods (28:50):
And that the opposite is that we don't want employees to be miserable. The thing that I took away as a negative of Quiet Quitting is that it is rooted in the fact that people are so tired, they hate their job or they hate their manager or their working environment is such that they kind of can't give anymore. And that feels like the most valid difference to me is we want to create an environment where employees don't hate their jobs even as we're living through crisis after crisis, that makes it hard to show up every day.

Rachel Zuckerman (29:27):
Yeah, I think you're getting at an important distinction. There is a big range from my understanding of what could fall within Quiet Quitting. It could fall from, "I'm okay at work and I'm just doing what I need to do", to, "I'm extremely burned out and disengaged and actively don't want to be here". And I think that is an important distinction to make in your employee population, where are you seeing the divide fall out because those require different solutions and strategies.

Rae Woods (29:55):
Is there anything that you actually want to push back on, either something that maybe Joe said or just in what you've heard about Quiet Quitting that you want to kind of write? What is being said out there about this term?

Allyson Paiewonsky (30:08):
I think something that really stood out to me that Joe said is that it's the manager's role to really get employees engaged in meaningful work. And I think there's two parts of that, that I want to push back on. And the first is that, this sense of purpose or being drawn to meaningful work is enough to overcome Quiet Quitting. And I think if you look at why healthcare workers go into healthcare and why people pursue that as their career, it's because they want to do meaningful work. It's because they want to help people and have that sense of purpose. And we did a survey recently, actually a 2022 Clinician Survey at Advisory Board. And the number one thing people valued most in their roles, it was meaningful work. And so if that was enough to keep people in their jobs and stop them from Quiet Quitting, I don't think that we would be in the staffing shortage that we're facing today. I think people would be a hundred percent engaged in their jobs if that was truly enough.

(30:58):
But I think what we're seeing is we're having severe burnout from systemic issues that have gone unaddressed. People are calling for flexibility or higher compensation or more respect and kind of protection from workplace violence. And when you've been through the effects of a clinician shortage or a traumatizing pandemic, it's really no wonder that these healthcare workers are disengaged and asking for change.

Rae Woods (31:21):
Or said another way, being in a field that is seen as meaningful is not enough. Because if that was the case, 100% of healthcare jobs would be free of burnout and free of disengagement and free of early retirements, all the stuff that we just know is not true despite the fact that working in healthcare is seen as something that has purpose.

Allyson Paiewonsky (31:46):
And I think you can feel that sense of purpose in your role, but still be incredibly burnt out or disengaged. I don't think that those two things are mutually exclusive and I think Joe really kind of painted it in that picture. But I think both can exist at the same time and is what's happening with our healthcare workforce. And then the other idea that I would push back on is that it's really up to the manager to kind of lead and inspire and prevent their employees from Quiet Quitting. I think when I think about the nurse manager role and the nurses I've spoken with, but also the past research we've done at Advisory Board, it's just really not realistic to put that burden on nurse managers. They all have...

Rae Woods (32:23):
Or entirely on the manager.

Allyson Paiewonsky (32:26):
Yes. And I think if that is something we want to put entirely on their shoulders, there's changes to their workflow that needs to be made. But right now they just have so many demands from supporting new strategic initiatives or doing collecting data for reports and data analytics or managing schedules and filling those vacant shifts. It's just not something that they have time to do. It's already such a time consuming role that we just can't put this on them as well. So I think it really cannot fall on manager's shoulders. It needs to be from the top.

Rachel Zuckerman (33:00):
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up, Allyson, because I think one of the biggest takeaways for me from listening to the conversation with Joe was actually, not that the manager is so important, but that healthcare organizations need to do a better job of equipping and supporting their managers and leaders to be able to effectively manage their teams and drive this type of energy that he was talking about.

Rae Woods (33:29):
Or creating this structure, I think that the five principles are right, collaboration, inspiration, trust, stretch goals, those are all things that I think, I mean Rachel pushed back that all organizations would want to ensue.

Rachel Zuckerman (33:44):
Yeah, absolutely.

Rae Woods (33:44):
I think the problem is how do you create a system in a structure that enables that? And to Allyson's point, that's much more than one person.

Rachel Zuckerman (33:52):
Absolutely. It's all about the systems and structures and processes that the organization has in place to develop leaders and support leaders and also support employees and make sure that you're building in all of these elements, trust and rest and inspiration that we talked about.

Rae Woods (34:11):
Up to this point, we've been talking about the healthcare workforce just generally, but we know that we can't actually make that many generalizations, especially if I think about the population that you work with, Allyson, clinicians, and the population that you work with, Rachel, which is tends to be the non-clinical workforce. So how do these concepts play out differently in these two populations and how might the takeaways be different depending if we're talking about clinical or non-clinical work?

Allyson Paiewonsky (34:39):
Yeah, I can touch on that clinical side, Rae. And I think a lot of the data points and kind of conversation that Joe has had about Quiet Quitting, I think it's really applicable to Corporate America, but I'm just not convinced that your average healthcare worker is waking up and saying, "I'm only going to do 50% of my job today, I'm going to Quiet Quit."

Rae Woods (34:57):
Because then people die.

Allyson Paiewonsky (34:59):
Yeah, exactly. People die, there's quality concerns and I think healthcare workers are aware of that. They know that that is the consequence of if they woke up and decided not to do their job. Whereas in corporate America, you can decide not to respond to emails after work and kind of set those type of boundaries, it's a little bit different in healthcare. So I think in healthcare you might see something like nurses saying, "I'm going to put in my 12 hours and go home. I'm not going to pick up additional shifts or I'm not going to participate in shared governance activities in my free time". But I don't think that stems from healthcare workers or nurses not wanting to do their jobs. I think it really is about setting boundaries to protect themselves from overworking and burnout. And so I think that's more of what it looks like from the healthcare angle.

Rachel Zuckerman (35:42):
It's interesting, Allyson, because you said that healthcare workers aren't Quiet Quitting in the sense that they're not deciding to do 50% of their jobs, but from my understanding, Quiet Quitting actually means you might be doing a hundred percent of your job, you're just not doing more than that. So I think exactly what you outlined.

Rae Woods (36:01):
Yeah, my 12 hour shift is still done.

Allyson Paiewonsky (36:03):
Yeah. And I think for so long we asked healthcare workers to give 110% because that was what was needed to get through the pandemic. And I think a lot of nurses and clinicians out there just kind of putting their hands up and saying, "I can't do it anymore. It's not something that I can do anymore for my own emotional health. I need that time for rest and recovery."

Rae Woods (36:23):
And then Quiet Quitting becomes actually quitting. So then what is the one thing you want our listeners to take away that will allow them to meaningfully support their employees, clinical or otherwise?

Allyson Paiewonsky (36:35):
My biggest takeaway is that we need to reframe how we're looking at Quiet Quitting or just kind of viewing this problem. And it's not that we have lazy employees. We have employees in healthcare who are really burnt out, they're frustrated, they're tired and they're setting boundaries to protect their mental health and their wellbeing. And I think employers need to respond to these calls for things, like flexibility or improved work-life balance. And if you don't step up and kind of meet these changing needs and expectations, it's going to be really hard to retain and attract talent in such a tight job market.

Rachel Zuckerman (37:06):
Yes, I couldn't agree more, Allyson. I think the big takeaway I would encourage healthcare leaders to acknowledge is just that work has changed and expectations around work have changed. And while there are I think valid and very real frustrations that leaders are experiencing in feeling like things are different or they're not getting out of employees when they used to, I think the most productive thing that healthcare leaders can do is acknowledge and embrace that reality because that's the foundation that you need to meet these changing employee expectations and be able to create a strategy and a plan and structures that's going to meet the needs of your workforce going forward.

Rae Woods (37:53):
Well Rachel, Allyson, thanks for coming on Radio Advisory.

Rachel Zuckerman (37:58):
Thanks for having us, Rae.

Rae Woods (37:59):
Yeah, thanks for having us.

(38:04):
Here's the thing, I think we should ignore the term Quiet Quitting entirely and maybe just focus on the concepts. We know that today's workforce is tired. We know that they are working through crisis after crisis, and it is up to organizations, including managers to support them. The support is where I want to focus and remember, that's where Advisory Board can help.