Rae Woods (00:02):
Hey, it's Rae. Over the last two months, I am positive that your organizations have been honoring Black History Month and Women's History Month, but I'm here to remind you we can't stop at a once-in-a-year celebration. We should be having conversations that celebrate the voices of women, of people of color, of the disabled, of LGBTQ+ people, and so many other versions of identity. Last week, we talked about what allyship is, and frankly, what it is not.

(00:38):
In today's episode, you will hear from several voices that frankly are here to share real stories, real moments when they face bias, real moments when they have needed an ally. I'm not sure that I'm the best person to have this conversation. I want to reintroduce you to a voice you've heard on the podcast feet before, Micha'le Simmons. She's the Managing Director of Workplace Culture and Leader Development at Advisory Board. Micha'le, take it away.

Micha'le Simmons (01:21):
I'm looking forward to this conversation that we're going to have today. I know we know each other professionally, but I'm excited to invite you to the podcast and have more people hear your story. I'll first introduce Dr. Kelley Bahr from Gundersen.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (01:35):
Hi, Micha'le. Glad to be here.

Micha'le Simmons (01:37):
We also have with us Dr. Elishae Johnson from Bronson Healthcare.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (01:42):
Hello.

Micha'le Simmons (01:44):
And finally, Dr. Jenny Kleven from Gundersen.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (01:49):
Hi, thanks for having me.

Micha'le Simmons (01:51):
Welcome to the podcast. Thank you all again for being a part of this really important conversation on allyship. And we know that allyship requires that we see, name and disrupt the ways that systems of oppression like racism and sexism show up in our world. We can't expect all of the work to fall on people who are underrepresented. It's not fair and it's not effective. So I'm wondering, Elishae, starting with you, in what ways have allies or co-conspirators showed up for you without you having to ask, and what lessons might others learn from this?

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (02:27):
Yes, so I've actually experienced this a few times in my career. There's one in particular that stands out for me. An HR leader who is a Black woman, noticed that I was in a different pay grade than other leaders in the same leadership level and took it upon herself. And so all of this, the discovery of it, the repair, was unbeknownst to me. I learned after she had taken this up and addressed it with the executive team and then had come to me and said, "Hey, I noticed this about your pay, and I just want you to know that it has been resolved and communicated what the change was." And I said to her that I was appreciative because I really genuinely was, one, I didn't know. And so to know that someone had done this on their own accord, recognized it, repaired it, and I really didn't have to do any self-advocacy, meant a lot to me.

(03:28):
But when I said thank you to her, she said, "you don't need to be grateful to me because this was the right thing to do." And that really made a difference to me. The thing to take away from that is sometimes when we think about equity work, we think about it at the macro level, and we sometimes don't always reflect on the things that happen on the individual micro level from person to person. And not all people scream equity. There are some folks who identify with it from a, "this is the right thing to do," perspective.

Micha'le Simmons (04:00):
I love that example too, because there are a lot of things that are going on behind the scenes, rooms that we aren't in, and we don't even know what opportunities we're not getting. Whether that be about pay or promotion or am I being considered as a successor for a next level role? You can't advocate for yourself in those rooms. And so someone who has access to more power, whether that be because of their gender or race or position in the organization and information that they have access to, can be a game changer.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (04:33):
Yes.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (04:35):
It's a place where I see having women in leadership positions and people of color in leadership positions be really exciting because those people are sitting at those tables and they just have a perspective that might be different than someone who had come before them.

Micha'le Simmons (04:54):
Absolutely. And to add on to that, why it's important that there be more than one at the table, because when it's one person of color or one woman at the table, it can be... It's too much of a burden for that person to have to take that on together. And why it's important too, for allies to consider, "what's my role in this work?" I'm sure we all know that the data still shows that women lag behind men in representation in senior leadership positions. And there are so many messages that women internalize as we try to climb the corporate ladder, we think, I have to be perfect. I have to execute flawlessly. I have to be assertive, but not bossy.

(05:38):
And there have been studies that have shown that men will apply for roles that they aren't qualified for while women feel that they have to exceed the qualifications to be ready to apply to that role. So even with all of the accomplishment that women bring, we often deal with imposter syndrome. And it's that fear of exposure of being found out as a fraud. So there's already this external tax, I'm working so hard to prove myself, and then there's this very real internal dialogue that can compromise our mental health and wellbeing.

(06:12):
Jenny, I'm wondering about your experiences navigating some of those internal messages that might have to deal with imposter syndrome. And what's the role that allies, whether those were peers, mentors, bosses, how have they helped in navigating those messages?

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (06:28):
It's interesting you'd asked that, Micha'le, because I think imposter syndrome is something that particularly really recently I've dealt with again, and I think it comes up each time you start to climb the ladder, if you will, in an organization or you switch roles and think, oh my gosh, now I'm in this role. Now what do I do? And sometimes it's that I, like you said, have perceptions of myself that other people may not see. But I realized a while ago, now that I hold myself to this external perception of the Enjoli ad from the '80s, which is a long time ago. But it was the woman who could bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, take care of her husband, and it was a 24-hour day. That was the tagline, was the 12-hour perfume for the 24-hour woman. And that is just a standard to which we should not hold ourselves.

Micha'le Simmons (07:19):
Amen.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (07:21):
But I think from the time I was a pretty little kid growing up with those things, the working woman was someone who could take care of the family and make sure that that was all taken care of and make sure that you were excelling at being really good at what you were doing at work. And so in my own head, I think those were the standards to which I held myself. And over my career, figuring out how to navigate in that space for myself has been something I've voiced, dealt with, said. Life is not a real balance. It's kind of an integration. And it means sometimes you got to work at some things and sometimes you're doing other things and you aren't going to be an A student all the way across. I know that I've struggled from the time I was little too, not wanting to be the smart girl. That wasn't always looked on as a good thing or the popular thing to be, wasn't the smart girl. [inaudible 00:08:10] a girl in particular.

(08:11):
And overcoming that, I think that's where the allies come in, that I have women friends who are also the smart girls. Having them be supportive and being able to talk about these things openly has been wonderful. And then I also have men both as friends and colleagues who will point out things like you said, "you know, should apply for that because I would never think of not having those qualifications. You'd do great. And I think you have a lot of skills." And whether that's having a conversation as an aside or whether that's going, I can think of particular mentors and leaders who I've had who have come to me and said, "I think you should try this." And I say, "oh, but I don't have those qualifications." And these are men in particular, actually, who've said, "no, you actually do, and it would be great to have you in this role."

(09:02):
I think those, if I can internalize them, and again, sometimes this is just me getting in my own way, give me the strength and ability to move forward, but it takes a lot of reinforcement. It's a lot of step back and say, "oh, wait a minute, I'm doing it. Okay, now I'm going to start." So it takes practice and giving yourself some grace to say, "this isn't easy and I need lots of people around me to be able to talk with and get support from." Whether those are my superiors or my colleagues, friends, et cetera. And both men and women. A lot of times from the men, it's really powerful coming from the men in my life to say, "no, you can do this."

Micha'le Simmons (09:45):
Yeah.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (09:46):
Yeah. I would agree with you, Jenny. I mean, that's really resonating with me too because I think about a position change for myself in the last year and how it really... When you kind of sink down and you need someone to pick you up and hearing you say that, it was actually a lot of male colleagues that I feel like almost resonated stronger with me as I reflect back who kind of pulled me aside and said, "Hey, I think you should continue to move forward and look at other opportunities for yourself, and you have the talents and the commitment to do it." So that's pretty powerful. I agree with you.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (10:23):
The other thing I've noticed, once you're in that role that's kind of cool, is that then as long as you're willing to speak, which does take some practice as well, and learning to use your authentic voice and not your, "I'm just trying to say this and apologize. I know I don't know, but..." Getting that out of your vocabulary take practice, because that has been something I've incorporated for a long time. "Oh, I'm so sorry. I must not have heard this right."

(10:45):
Not apologizing, et cetera. But the things like you brought up earlier, Elishae, with noticing the discrepancies that may be there and then calling it to those colleagues attention who are sitting at that table and their ability to say, "huh, I never would've thought of that." And just creating that space where people cannot know and be, I noticed the more women I have in my leadership circle, the more I see this ability for everyone in the room, men and women, both to be vulnerable. And it's just a really cool thing to watch. We're just starting to see it happen, I think. But it opens us up to making changes that need to get made.

Micha'le Simmons (11:24):
Absolutely. I have to underscore two things from this exchange. First, this group is such an accomplished group of women leaders, and there's such agreement that this doesn't go away. It is a continuous practice. The further I get along, even if I'm at the top of the organization, I'm probably going to feel it even more.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (11:49):
Definitely.

Speaker X (11:49):
Yes.

Micha'le Simmons (11:51):
And so that need for the support around you never goes away.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (11:56):
And if I may also, in taking one of those, when you're applying for a job and they have those career tests to kind of see what you're thinking, what you value in the role, I remember one particular question that I paused to answer because I noticed my worry of how it would be perceived as a Black woman. And it was about if my desire for the position had anything to do with position advancement or pay, and I struggled with answering that because in all honesty, yes, I am seeking career advancement, and yes, I do want access to wealth, and I also am doing it for the right reasons, and it's more of a collective decision for me, and I want to make wider impact in my community. But you only get one answer to that question. And I was curious to how that would be perceived for a male to say, "yes, I am seeking advancement." So sometimes we're challenged with being honest and authentic in some of those answers because we don't know how will that be perceived, right?

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (13:05):
Well, and the fact that we even worry about that. I mean, isn't everyone interested in some... I mean, if you're in the professional world, you're looking for advancement, for reassurance you're doing a good job for improving, in our case, like the health and wellbeing of our communities, and getting paid for it. And those are all okay. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. "No, no, no, you don't need to pay me. I'll just do it."

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (13:33):
Feel like I've done that a lot, but now I'm not going to anymore.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (13:36):
Yep.

Micha'le Simmons (13:40):
Yep. I want to highlight an important nuance I think you all called out in the allies who have showed up for you because there's a version of support from men or other people that can look like, "You go be you, be authentic. It's fine." Versus someone who is actually trying to lean in and help you do that work. So there's a slight difference there because it's not so easy to just give some basic advice like, "It's okay, just be you and everything's going to be fine." No, "what can I do to... Do I need to go recommend you to the person who's hiring for that role? Do I need to go through your resume with you or point out to you what makes Jenny, Elishae, Kelley so qualified for that, that I want to give them my stamp of approval." So it's important to make that distinction.

(15:34):
So in our work in the fellowship, which is advisory boards program for emerging leaders and executives in healthcare, we have talked a lot about what leadership is and what leadership isn't. The story that we have been told about what leadership is does benefit some people more than others. And I've seen with you all the journey that you've been on to define what does leadership mean to me? And how can I maybe challenge some of the expectations of what I've been told leadership is and define it in a way that's more authentic to me? So Kelley, I'm wondering about your journey and how you've been redefining leadership in a way that reflects your values and allows you to lead more authentically.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (16:32):
Reflecting upon that question, Micha'le, I think about even there was a time in the last couple of years where I had a title, I had a role, I was leading people and it was an elected position, but suddenly all of my peers didn't elect me again. And I lost my place in terms of thinking that that was the only way I could continue to move up in the organization. And as I looked around me and I saw other people, male and female colleagues both, but moving up from that particular leadership position to the next position, and I was like, "whoa, now what am I going to do?" And again, reflecting back on what Jenny talked about too, it was leaning on colleagues and kind of figuring out what is my next path? And I think about my adaptability. We think about some of our strengths and I mean, this was around the pandemic and did I really change my leadership?

(17:27):
Did I really incorporate my values at the time? Did I just take it for granted that it would just continue to be there? And I think I learned a lot about myself and reflecting upon that and just kind of moving forward and saying, "you know what? I got to dig in my heels and do better and use the fellowship to advance my leadership and my potential and look at my own values and how I can lead differently." Especially in crisis mode and in changes because I kind of fell victim to, "let's just keep doing things the way we've always done them." And ultimately, while I wanted to place blame on other people and other situations in the organization, it really kind of fell to me in terms of changing things around and figuring out who I was going to be and how I was going to lead differently.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (18:13):
I just think this has been a challenging time to be a leader and to be in the workforce in general for lots and lots of different reasons.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (18:22):
Definitely.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (18:23):
One thing that we talked a lot about in the advisory board fellowship is that the leadership part of that is understanding your strengths and tapping into the strengths of all of the people around you at whatever levels they are, and finding the voices that aren't necessarily being heard and need to be heard in order to impact the change that needs to happen. And then identifying a purpose and orienting to that... I hear it over and over my head, orienting to that purpose rather than orienting to the path. And I think that's different than I've learned in the past in leadership kinds of training, that here's how you go from that kind of waterfall approach of here's how you go from point A to point B to point C to point D, and you ultimately get to the end result that you need to get to.

(19:07):
I think in particular in this post pandemic world, we had to throw that up in the air a little and say, "Nope, I know where I need to get to." And then give ourselves the grace to say, "my path might change and vary and I'm going to succeed here, and then I'm really not, and that's okay too. And I'm going to throw something else at the wall and see if it works and find other people." And ask for the voices that aren't necessarily good and be the ally. It's because sometimes I am in the role that I can facilitate for others to bring that person with me into this milieu so that we can elevate what they have to say.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (19:50):
Well said. Yep.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (19:52):
For me, it's the modeling. I try to model what it looks like to be myself and just hope that that is contagious.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (20:03):
And it is, Elishae.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (20:03):
So that we can infuse more of that into leadership.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (20:10):
That's great.

Micha'le Simmons (20:11):
We know that hindsight is 2020 and that there are many women leaders like yourself who are looking to advance in healthcare, and I'm wondering, what would you tell your early career self looking to navigate the very hierarchical, often white male dominated spaces that can be the healthcare environment?

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (20:32):
I would say to my younger self that there is nothing wrong with you.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (20:37):
Just keep pushing forward. Don't let there be any hurdles, any barriers, jump over them and then utilize your talents and your values and your colleagues and the people around you to help you do that.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (20:51):
Yeah, I'd say you're okay and you're going to be okay, and things are going to go up and down and you can handle that.

Micha'le Simmons (21:01):
Thank you.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (21:02):
And find people who support you and walk alongside you.

Micha'le Simmons (21:07):
Yes. Pulling up to the organizational view, I was looking at some recent data from McKenzie's Women In The Workplace report, and it showed women are leaving work at higher rates than men for a variety of reasons, including probably what we could all expect, advancement opportunities, wanting more flexibility, wanting recognition for the work that they're doing. I'm wondering, what message do you have for organizations that are seeking to retain and elevate women leaders? What do you see that might make a difference?

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (21:39):
It kind of ties in with what Jenny said earlier with looking at, you know, can get to the same end point, but sometimes you need to follow a different path. So it's more like think outside the box, be flexible. How can you get the same results but doing things differently? And if anything, in the post pandemic world, we've had to continue to do things differently and think outside the box on a regular basis in terms of whether it's how we deliver care or how we lead in all those cases. And so I would just say we have to be creative and we have to do things differently than we ever did before.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (22:13):
Yeah. I'd second that and then I'd add, think about the whole person that women in the workforce are balancing or integrating a lot of different parts of their lives. And I think, like Kelley said, we need to look at our benefits packages, we need to look at how we're supporting the whole life that we lead in the workforce at all different levels and try to create a better integration around that. What are our expectations for people? How can we support them with childcare? Are those things that we need to start to work into and prioritize and work into our normal working life so that women want to stay in the workforce and have the ability to do so.

Micha'le Simmons (23:00):
Yeah, right.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (23:00):
Agreed.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (23:02):
And men for that matter, because they're doing parenting too. All of us, that became very clear.

Micha'le Simmons (23:06):
Yes.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (23:07):
A colleague introduced me to some concepts that just like... I Love When I Develop Language, and it was from a TEDx talk in London, and we're all familiar with the glass ceiling, right?

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (23:18):
Yes.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (23:19):
Practices that prevent folks from advancing. But this talk also introduced glass elevators which limits women in particular from progressing in certain fields, and then the glass cliff. And I was like, "wow, this is amazing." And the glass cliff is when women and minorities are promoted to top management only when companies are failing. And I was like, "oh my gosh." So my wisdom would be we see implicit biases in education, right? Like, "oh, I took the course," but I really encourage organizations to dig, dig, dig when you're making decisions about women and minorities, to really explore where implicit bias might live.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (24:03):
Yeah, that's excellent advice.

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (24:05):
I agree. [inaudible 00:24:07], absolutely.

Micha'le Simmons (24:08):
Love it. I'm so inspired by all of you, and I'm so glad you were able to join us for this conversation.

Dr. Kelley Bahr, MD (24:14):
Thank you. [inaudible 00:24:15]-

Dr. Jennifer Kleven, MD, MPH, FAAP (24:14):
Thanks for having us.

Dr. Elishae Johnson, PhD, LPC, CAADC (24:15):
Thank you.

Micha'le Simmons (24:24):
I wanted to bring one more person into today's conversation, and that's Charity Shelley. She's Advisory Board's Manager of Culture, Inclusion and Diversity. She will leave you with some final thoughts on your next steps.

Charity Shelley (24:38):
Healthcare is about actively supporting our communities to live healthier lives. There are many concepts we consider when determining the health of the patients in our communities, but I want to encourage you to think about a concept that may or may not be top of mind, which is weathering. Simply put, weathering data shows that people are living shorter lives due to consistent stress caused by systems of oppression. Let that sink in.

(25:07):
Wouldn't you say high stress and shorter lives seems to be counterproductive to the healthcare experiences we are hoping people have? It doesn't quite say, "we are here as your healthcare advisors to make sure you have a quality healthcare experience." Quality healthcare requires equity, period. Equitable healthcare cannot exist if we don't do the work to understand the experiences of others outside of our personal identities. It also cannot exist if we don't advocate for others who don't have a seat at the table, as we like to say.

(25:46):
At Advisory Board, we are living our research insights. We believe in striving to create a work environment that nurtures sense of belonging and practices psychological safety, emphasis on practices. Why? To model the change that needs to be. We want to be the allies our colleagues need without them asking. The truth is sometimes you don't know you need an ally until you do. We are all in different parts of our allyship journey, and that's okay.

(26:19):
Even at various points in our journeys, we can help make a difference one action at a time. As you continue working to be seen as an ally, here's some helpful nuggets to carry with you that I learned along the way. Trust your instinct when deciding to speak up. Sometimes being an ally means not interjecting if that makes a situation worse for the person or the people you are trying to support. Keep that in mind. But it's always important to do the right thing.

(26:50):
Embrace the idea that you will be wrong. It isn't wrong to honor a good intention. However, it is important to be aware that intentions don't always translate to a positive impact. Remind yourself often, and this is one that I am working on, allyship is not a title. Allyship is about the actions you take to help center the experiences of the people you are choosing to support. Your allyship title is given to you by them based on your actions. Learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. You will experience challenges. You won't always know the answer. Take it as a learning experience, full stop.

(27:32):
And lastly, there is not only one way to be an ally, different people require different support. Be open while listening for what is needed. In this conversation, you heard a lot about equity. Allyship will not solve all of your equity problems. It will help you learn how to listen for the way people need you most. Remember, we're here to help.

Rae Woods (28:00):
If you like Radio Advisory, please share it with your networks. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave a rating and a review. Radio Advisory is a production of The Advisory Board. This episode was produced by me, Rae Woods, as well as Micha'le Simmons, Charity Shelley, Katy Anderson and Kristin Myers. The episode was edited by Dan Tayag with technical support by Chris Phelps and Joe Shrum. Additional support was provided by Carson Sisk and Leanne Elston. Thanks for listening.