Brendan (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to PodRocket. I'm Brendan, I'm your host, and I'm on the engineering team here at LogRocket. Joining me today are Jin Zang and Dhruv Gupta, co-founders of Axle, a universal data platform for trucking and supply chain. Guys, it's great to have you on. Thanks for being here.

Dhruv Gupta (00:33):
Thanks for having us.

Brendan (00:37):
I guess, maybe to start, it would be great if you two could introduce yourselves, tell us a little bit about you and where you're coming from, and then talk a little bit about what is Axle and what you guys are building.

Dhruv Gupta (00:48):
Cool. Yeah. So, a little bit about myself. I'm not that interesting, when Jin jumps in, he has a much more interesting background than I do. But I played a lot of SimCity as a kid and went to college to try to bring that to life. I was a big SimCity 4 guy, and so in college, I studied a combination of computer science and political science, trying to learn more about transportation policy, transportation economics, that kind of thing, as well as how can we build tools that really enable us to have better livable cities, transportation, supply chains, all of that kind of stuff. Absolute blast to study that in school, I spent a few years doing a bunch of research on micromobility, bikes and scooter-sharing optimization, actually advised by my now co-founder here, Jin Zang, who's on this podcast with us, when he was a PhD student there, it was just an absolute blast.
And then spent a couple of years doing stuff in startups, working for a seed-stage startup here in Boston, trying my hand at starting my own Y Combinator-backed startup. Didn't go super well. It was summer 2020, but that's just how these things go. Here we are, building something new. Kicking it over to Jin.

Jin Zang (02:01):
Yeah. So, for myself, I started out a little more on the business and data science side of things. So, I also went to Harvard for undergrad, I actually knew Brendan from back in the day.

Brendan (02:14):
It's been a lot of years now.

Jin Zang (02:16):
Well, if you recall, I think a huge thing has had a significant influence on the way I thought about problems is our freshman year back in, this is literally 2009, 2010, Harvard Square was taken over by film set. That film was The Social Network, which is, essentially, the movie that was made about the story of the founding of Facebook at Harvard. I think the big ramification there, that has shaped the way I thought about problems, is thinking about what happens, essentially, when you have social media networks like Facebook and Twitter and others, you connect every human on the internet and the pluses and minuses, the benefits and the costs of that kind transformation. And so, that has always been a through line in the things that I'm interested in and the kind of problems I want to work on, going from Harvard and undergrad and taking classes on social network analysis, to going into management consulting and working with these large organizations and businesses, and solving the problems that they're facing and the organizations that they're trying to manage and the customers they try to serve.
And then going to the Federal Trade Commission and working on technology policy and, how does the government tackle these kind of problems? And then coming back to Harvard for my PhD, where I was doing all sorts of work on data privacy, algorithmic discrimination, election security, COVID-19 contact tracing technologies, and advising wonderful students, like Dhruv and others, on all of their passions, about thinking about this intersection between the technologies that we're building, the data that we're collecting about individuals, about things in the world, and what kind of tools can we then build with that data? That really is the genesis of how we're approaching the problem here at Axle, and Dhruv and I being co-founders of this company where Dhruv has this clear passion on mobility, and for me, what's really exciting here is every truck in the United States is now connected to the internet.
So, if you think about that Facebook transformation about connecting every human, what happens when you connect every vehicle to the internet? Which is almost a one-to-one, in the United States, matched to the number of people we have in this country. That's what's really exciting about this idea of this transformation in logistics, in trucking, with vehicles, to say, "We can get all sorts of data now, and what can we build with that data? How do we make that data more accessible?" That's really the kind of problems that we're working on here at Axle. I'll kick it back to Dhruv to talk a little more specifics about what we're building.

Dhruv Gupta (04:55):
So, at Axle, as Jin said, our mission is to use this data to enable, empower folks to build this future of transportation, where we actually bring things together to work in our system, where it's a $1 trillion trucking industry. 70% of goods in the United States and in Canada are moved by trucks, but we still have all these supply chain problems. We still have all these rising fuel prices, labor shortages. Trucker turnover is 90%. Within a year, truckers will quit their jobs. It's because business as usual just isn't working for folks. Truckers are struggling, you and I are struggling to get the goods that we need, and folks that are trying to solve this problem struggle to get the information and data that they need. As a result of that, we talked to 150 different people, we did a bunch of research here, we did a bunch of work here, and realized the problem isn't getting the data, the problem is cleaning, parsing, putting all that information together in a way that's accessible, that's usable for building new products.
Axle is a universal data platform that takes data from hundreds of different disparate sources, brings them all together, whether it's telematics providers, sensors, other IoT technologies, different maps, data sources, different financial data sources, brings all that together into a critical industry to solve this problem that you've seen solved in other industries, too. For us to solve this in something that's major impactful, it's pretty exciting. It's a fun place to be.

Brendan (06:32):
Yeah. So much to dig into there, but maybe before we talk a little more about Axle, I'm also curious to hear a little bit of your founder story, too. Dhruv, you said, Jin advised your thesis, but I'm curious how you went from... Not everyone founds a startup with their thesis advisor, so I'm really curious to hear how you guys from working together there to ending up wanting to found a company together.

Dhruv Gupta (06:58):
Yeah. That's a funny story. I'll maybe tell my half of it and then Jin can come in with his side. I remember during my college interviews, my college interviewer asked, "So, who's your idol?" I was like, "I don't know," I had to pick someone from Harvard, so I was like, "Mark Zuckerberg's cool. Bill Gates are cool." She was like, "Okay. Clearly, you want to be an entrepreneur. Would you drop out?" I was like, "No. Is that the right answer here?" But that's been on my mind, and the reason for that is because I always saw myself as a builder, whether it was building Lego locks for my door so my sister would stay out. It doesn't work, by the way, Lego is very easy to tear apart, this should have been obvious to me. Or graduating to writing code and doing robotics and things like that, to build solutions to problems that I had. So, that's how I've been thinking for the last 20 years. So, coming into college, that was my goal, it was build solutions to problems that I faced. That's how I got into micromobility and bike-sharing optimization.
I would commute from one part of Cambridge to another part of Cambridge using Bluebikes, which is the local bike-sharing. If anyone from Lyft is listening to this, it's a very poorly optimized system. A lot of the work that I did has always been pushed by this impetus, Jin thinks, in my opinion, the same way, and so it was a very natural fit for us. He had taught a couple of the classes that I had taken to fall into this thesis advising, and as a result of us having similar mindsets, we also became just fast friends. We spent the next two years as I was trying different products and projects going to different companies where Jin just gave me just a worldview that I wanted to hear, needed to hear, a lot of really great advice, great friendship. As a result of that, we knew we worked really well together, we knew that we had this strong relationship where we both understood both our strengths and weaknesses.
And so, here we are, a couple years later, a few months of actually working on building this product out. When Jin was coming out of his PhD, he was like, "Look, I want to do something new," and I'll kick it over.

Jin Zang (09:35):
For myself, I think Dhruv definitely walked through a lot of just the early years of experiences that we had that were really positive working together and really appreciated. I think, zooming in a little bit over the past year, essentially, I wrapped up my PhD at Harvard in May of last year. I had a fellowship position at Harvard where I was helping launch the new Public Interest Tech Lab and kicking off a lot of the work I was doing during my PhD around combining public interest with technology. But I was also looking for something a little more entrepreneurial, I think, in terms of I have all these skills that I've developed over the years on both the technical side and building technologies, both at Harvard and elsewhere, as well as working with lots of students like Dhruv in their own entrepreneurial pursuits and advising them, and feeling like, "Hey, I can tackle all sorts of problems now, I have the degree. What is the problem that's really motivating and interesting to tackle?"
Where we started out at was just hacking our cars. Really, if you're going to go into the founding story of Axle, is I have a Honda CR-V. The question was really, "So, we know there are computers and cars, what kind of data can we get out of our cars?" Literally, the winter in Boston is -20 degrees outside, I had the heater turned on in my car. We're just on our computers, plugging away, trying to pull data out of my car. We got some really cool success, in terms of the data we were pulling. And then as we started shopping around this idea and this potential product with customers and companies that might actually want to get data out of vehicles very quickly, it became apparent that, first, on the passenger or consumer side of things, everyday people that are driving, they're not crazy like us and just want to hack their own cars, necessarily, and are going to feel a lot of anxiety about plugging things into their own personal vehicles to get data out of it.
But on the trucking, logistics, commercial-side of things that we're talking about, those large vehicles that you see on the road, that's now legally required. Congress passed a law in 2015 and the law fully got enforced starting in 2020 to say, "Hey, if you're a trucker on the road today, you have to have what's called a electronic logging device, plugged into your vehicle to verify that you're driving safely, that you're following the law in terms of the number of hours you're driving and the kind of loads and deliveries that you're doing." That is data that's already out there, and talking with the customers that we work with that are working with these fleets, the issue is not the data doesn't exist, but it's that it's in all these different kinds of formats. There's 800 devices on the market, it's highly fragmented, there's 100 different companies that are selling devices. So, if you're trying to get data, but it's coming from hundreds of data sources, that's really overwhelming.
That's really where we really saw an opportunity for Axle to help solve this kind of problem as the genesis of like, "Let's get all the data into a single platform so that you can talk to us to get the data you need." From then on, we can help our customers build additional analytics and other kinds of tools to extend the utility of that data. Because it's really interesting data at the end of the day, I think that's, what's motivating and it's exciting here, is it's information about the vehicle, the speed, the location, the engine information, the brake information, but it's also information about the human, it's about the driver, it's who are they? What kind of deliveries have they done? What's their track record? Especially in trucking, what's in the back of the vehicle? What is the delivery that's being made? Where does it have to go from Point A to Point B? What's the company that's making that shipment?
So, all of that data is really rich data that we get to play with about things in the real world, that is, essentially, representative of literally 70% of all goods that are shipped in the United States. Whenever you go into a supermarket, that's the kind of data that we're talking about in terms of, how did that object get to that supermarket?

Brendan (13:44):
Yeah. So, you've mentioned a couple of the different data streams or data points that can come out of a truck. I guess, as a web developer, I'm used to thinking of things like API responses that come back when I curl Stripe's API or something, but I'm imagining that's very different than what the data that comes out of a truck looks. Can you talk a little bit more about what are the different data sources that you get from connected vehicles and what they look like, and maybe what's hard or interesting about working with them that creates the need for a product like Axle to provide an abstraction layer over them?

Jin Zang (14:21):
Yeah. So, one thing that's really interesting is we're integrating with the cloud APIs of these companies that are making devices that go into the vehicle. So, to go back to my story with the Honda CR-V, initially, we were like, "Hey, let's go plug into the vehicles ourselves," everyday vehicles like Honda CRVs. Now, there's all these companies that already have the devices plugged into the vehicles, those devices via, essentially, 4G, talk to some cloud server of the manufacturer of the device. For us, the ability to get information from a vehicle into the internet, that first link has been solved by the partners that we work with. So, it's similar to, say, your example of Stripe, when Stripe is talking to all the banks and stuff, they're just talking from one cloud server to another cloud server. That's also what's happening here on our end, is we are talking to the different API endpoints or the other ways of accessing data beyond REST APIs from the different partners that we integrate with.
This is information that's coming in terms of the GPS data of a vehicle, the information about the fuel levels of the vehicle, the speed of the vehicle, the odometer readings of vehicles. It could also be information about the driving behavior, and that's really interesting if you think about applications for insurance and monitoring of safety and other purposes of saying, "Is there harsh braking that's happening? Is there speeding that's happening? Is there harsh turns that are being made?" That is information that we're accessing from the partners and then when they go onto the Axle platform, that is then accessible to the customers that we serve that says, "Hey, I'm working with Fleet A. Fleet A has these devices plugged in, can I get the data from those devices through Axle so that I can just use this data for the different dashboards that I'm building for that fleet, or the fuel card I'm serving that fleet, or the insurance product that I'm working with that fleet, or the shipment that I'm working with the fleet on?"

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Hey, this is Emily, one of the producers for PodRocket. I'm so glad you're enjoying this episode. You probably hear this from lots of other podcasts, but we really do appreciate our listeners. Without you, there would be no podcast, and because of that, it would really help if you could follow us on Apple Podcasts so we can continue to bring you conversations with great devs like Evan You and Rich Harris. In return, we'll send you some awesome PodRocket stickers. So, check out the show notes on this episode and follow the link to claim your stickers as a small thanks for following us on Apple Podcasts. All right, back to the show.

Brendan (17:15):
I guess this is a very, 'question to ask startup founders', but I'm curious, also, who is the sort of user who's going to use these dashboards or are going to be integrating with the product you're building? Whose job does this make easier? Who's the person who's going to be like, "Thank God this service exists"?

Dhruv Gupta (17:35):
This is a great question. So, if we think about the flow and all the parties that are involved, the flow of data, you've got your individual vehicles and all of those have devices on board. Those devices, as Jin mentioned, connect up to some cloud API, let's pick Samsara Geotab, a bunch of companies here that do that. Let's pick Samsara. So, Samsara's cloud API has all this information about these vehicles. There's a fleet owner, unless it's an owner-operator, in which case it's just one person, but there's a fleet owner who owns a few vehicles, and they're trying to use some software to figure out, "Hey, where are all my vehicles? Who's driving them? How much are they driving?" They're trying to use some sort of fuel card like, "Hey, I want to issue this card to Driver A so that they can swipe at the pump and they don't have to pay out of pocket for that gas."
And then they want to use insurance, of course, and all of these different products. They don't want to have to deal with and have to figure out how to share that information to those services, and the services want to make sure that they can capture as much information from as many different people as possible. At the end of the day, our customer is the developers at those financial services or those dashboard companies, what are called TMSs, Transportation Management Services, driver management companies, insurance companies. Those are the people that we're working with, those are the folks that are our customers. But the end user, frequently, will be the fleet, because they'll have to see, "Hey, this is where I put in my credentials. This is how I log in and share that data." I would think of an analogy as maybe to Plaid, where when you log into, let's say, Robinhood and then you're connecting your Bank of America or Chase account to Robinhood so that you can buy a bunch of AMC and lose money down the line. This is not financial advice. Actually, it's not financial advice. I really regret not buying AMC.
Putting that aside, when you log into Robinhood, Plaid shows you a popup as the user and says, "Hey, put in your Bank of America credentials, we'll get your Bank of America information for you." On the other hand, however, the actual customer for that is Robinhood themselves and the Robinhood developers. So, that's the unique thing about being a backend tool that has a front end component to it, we have to work for multiple people.

Brendan (20:14):
I guess that leads really nicely into talking a little bit more about what the product you're building is, both what's the first thing you guys want to ship and maybe, also, I think this is always interesting to talk about founders with, why did you decide that was the right first thing to build? Why is this the thing to bring to market first?

Jin Zang (20:37):
Great. So, the first product that we're really building is this universal API to be able to help our customers, essentially, onboard fleets, get access to the data of the fleet that is stored in these different device makers companies, these telematics providers companies, and then be able to use that data for the different business purposes, to ultimately offer a better service to the fleet itself. That's really translating the data collection into value and money in the pocket of a fleet, whether that's a cheaper insurance product that the fleet can now access or advising on how to save money at the pump, which is a huge cost when it comes to trucking. Where we're starting out with our product is, essentially, there's two parts to it.
Primarily on the backend part, we are essentially building data pipelines to all the different integration partners that we have, like Samsara, like Geotab, like EROAD, and a whole host of others that we're working with, and then having their data be accessible through the actual API, so that from our customer's perspective, all they have to do is on the front end side of things, show, essentially, a tool, a link tool to the fleet to say, "Hey, choose your telematics provider from this dropdown." You select Samsara or EROAD or Geotab or others, and then you say, "Okay, what's your username and password?" And then it follows the correct authentication flow, essentially, to say, "Do you allow the data to be shared?" You give permission for the data to be shared, and then bada bing, we're handling the rest. We get the authentication tokens, we can then access the data for that fleet. That data can then be onboarded onto Axle, and then accessible to our customer to be able to be used to understand what's going on with the number of vehicles, what's going on with the drivers, what's going on with the routes.

Brendan (22:43):
You made me think about the price of gas, obviously, being well over double what it was at the COVID low and new legislation being passed. It seems like, maybe in stark contrast to Dhruv, I've spent very little of my life thinking about logistics and thinking about these types of problems, but now it feels like supply chain is everywhere. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's thinking about it. There's shortages of all kinds of things that we've basically taken for granted our entire lives, at least in the US. I'm curious what have been some of the, maybe, opportunities or challenges of trying to launch a product in the logistics space in this moment, where it feels like logistics is both probably under a ton of pressure, but, also, maybe there's more momentum for change? I'm curious to hear what that looks like, from your perspective.

Dhruv Gupta (23:44):
You got it. You really hit the nail on the head there. This is a huge problem that affects every single thing, I think. We're looking at inflation, we're looking at increased housing prices. We're looking at problems with child care, with baby formula supply chains disrupted. Every single person in America and around the world is affected by these supply chain issues. As a result of this, since this has become so salient to so many people, we are seeing a huge upheaval and increase in FreightTech supply chain tech companies. Folks that don't want to disrupt, because disruption in this space is the opposite of what we're looking for, they want to find efficiencies, they want to streamline things. They want to make life easier, simpler for truckers, for freight, for shippers, carriers alike. You start with companies like Flexport, multi-billion dollar company that are just streamlining so many things in the shipping industry, and then you go all the way down the line to other smaller companies that are just popping up, or raising hundreds of millions of dollars.
You're seeing companies like Stord, you're seeing companies like project44, even Samsara IPO'd at the beginning of the year for $6 billion. The monetary valuation isn't really what's interesting here. The fact is that there's just a lot of money going into this space to invest in building resilient supply chains. People are building really interesting solutions, whether it's trying to reduce how much time is spent at the warehouse or at the shipment location so that you can just get things and go, whether it's building data visibility into trucking, like we are, or shipping, like other companies are. All of that kind of work is immensely interesting and adds to just this space. I think maybe the best way I saw is, I can't attribute it to the right person, but I saw a tweet the other day that said, "Look, 10 years ago, we saw a FinTech revolution, and now we're about to see a FreightTech revolution."
So, that's what I'm really excited about and why Axle feels really special to me, because what we're doing is providing this core data platform, core data layer for this space, where now, we basically had to enable all these folks that are trying to make life better for truckers, for the supply chain using this core data that we're starting to provide. So, really excited about that.

Brendan (26:23):
I guess I'm also interested to hear you say that it feels like there's a lot of money and funding flowing into the space, because a big part of the story of the first half of this year has been a flight of capital from tech startups, and a lot of companies IPOing and then being immediately underwater. I'm curious, is there an element of people wanting to put capital towards things that are more obvious and immediate needs, and logistics and freight being a space for that? Do you feel like it's different than, maybe, to pick on the FinTech market, what the FinTech market was a couple of years ago? What does it feel like to be on the ground founding a startup in 2022?

Dhruv Gupta (27:10):
It's a good question. We did raise a bit of money and I think we got lucky with the timing in which we raised that, maybe right before things really started to go downhill or right as things started to go downhill. All that being said, I think, we're not venture capitalists, what's really important to us is looking at the supply chain in FreightTech space, and there's two ways where this could go. If capital markets are down, markets rates increase, et cetera, et cetera, the goal is to reduce consumer spending. The goal is to tamper down demands so that we can tamper down inflation. That could be not great for the supply chain space, if folks are spending less, but the other way to look at this is now folks are more interested in building more efficient, resilient supply chains.
Folks need to find ways to cut costs, to cut fuel usage, which is great for sustainability goals. They need to find ways to measure how effective and efficient they are, that's great if building a data business in the space, man. So, from our perspective, at least, that's a position that we find ourselves pretty fortunate to be in.

Jin Zang (28:23):
Yeah. Just taking a more long-term view for us, there's a huge amount of volatility, obviously, especially over the last several months, but ultimately, the long-term, and it's been more than a decade of just increasing technology spend within this industry, where you went from everyone's on the phone all the time and emailing each other all the time, to now you have different data sources that now if you go and log into the website of one of the tools that you're using, you can see the data of that one tool. But what doesn't exist yet is can these tools start talking to each other? That's really where we think that connectivity and the way that we can provide that connectivity can provide a ton of value.
And then there's a ton of interest from the customers and the folks that we talk to, to say, "Hey, I have literally 10 different apps on my phone as a trucker," which is actually what's happening, because there's all sorts of people trying to build apps for truckers, "But none of them talk to each other and it's really frustrating. I'm constantly going through different screens to click on the same thing over and over again." If you take a step back, what is the actual day-to-day life now for the people who are managing fleets, for the people who are managing trucking? It's just a lot of manually inputting data to different systems that don't talk to each other that we're hoping to solve.
I think that's the opportunity here that we're excited about, because there is technology, there is a wave of digital tools that's been already building, and then, now you're at a maturity in the market where something like Axle makes a lot of sense to say, "All these different tools can now start being integrated," so that when every day things happen to a trucking fleet, like, "Hey, I have a new driver who just signed on to join my company. I'm super excited I don't have to log in and call and email 10 different services, my fuel card company, my insurance company, my telematics provider, my transportation management solution to tell them about this new person who joined my company." Why can't all of these different systems talk to each other and just understand there's now a new driver?

Brendan (30:35):
Yeah. Maybe that contains the answer to another question, but there's a bunch of components that go into being a successful startup. You've got to have a good idea. It's got to be relevant to people. They've got to want the thing you're building, but you've also got to build it at the right time. It's the Facebook versus MySpace story of you can't just have a good idea, you've got to have the right idea at the right time. I'm curious why you feel like this is the right time to start building out these kind of data layers and integrations? Is it just that now there are so many more connected trucks? Are there other forces that are driving the space to a point where now we need integration services?

Dhruv Gupta (31:19):
That's a good question. You're now at this point where folks have nearly 100% data penetration into the trucking and, really, most of the commercial vehicle space. That's new. So, this regulation that we're talking about on data connectivity in the US, at least, passed in 2015, wasn't really enforced until December 2019. So, now, you give folks about a year or so to really put that into action, realize that this data is useful. You're seeing a generational shift, you're seeing massive disruption in the supply chain itself. As a result of that, as we discussed earlier, we're seeing this huge influx of companies looking for this data.
The telematic space, trucking, in general, is very regional, and so what you're seeing now is also the nationalization of these tools. Before, folks that were in Arizona would find a local Arizonan TSP company, telematics company, and then onboard with that, and someone in Virginia wouldn't have even heard of that company. As a result of this nationalization where Samara is a national company, a national brand, EROAD is a national brand, folks are hopping on to these larger devices, to this hyper-fragmented space, and then looking for solutions that help manage their entire fleets around the country. So, there's a lot of interesting trends here that all coalesce into building this core hunger for information and for data so that they can build efficiencies that really only started to come together now.

Jin Zang (33:01):
Yeah. I think the other piece on the market timing, to your point, who are we actually building tools for is developers who can actually look at APIs. As you mentioned, most every day people, including engineers like yourself, may not have thought about the supply chain, more than two years ago, because it's like, "Oh, things just show up at our corner store and I don't have to worry about how I got there." But now, people are faced with shortages. People are faced with, "Oh wow, I want the new MacBook, but it's going to take three months for it to get from the factory in China over to the Apple Store down the street from me." I think that what's exciting and interesting there is then, from a perspective of the people who want to be building in tech, there's a lot more interest and there's a flow of talent wanting to build tech in this space because it's affecting their own lives and they can relate to the impact of that technology.
It's not abstract, this means that, frankly, trucks can drive with higher utilization that they don't have to drive empty. Instead of having only 60% of the time, there's something in the truck, why can't we push that up closer to 80/90% of the time, so that's more money for the truckers themselves and it's also cost-savings, in terms of the overall supply chain efficiency?

Brendan (34:23):
Yeah. It's really interesting to think about this whole wave of developers who are running towards this problem of wanting to build apps that influence the supply chain. They're about to run into this wall of data fragmentation and you're positioning yourself to be the people standing there with the solution, selling shovels in the gold rush, I guess.

Dhruv Gupta (34:43):
Exactly. The other thing is these kinds of trends are a bit exponential. Someone goes to work for Samara for a couple years, comes up with an idea of their own, starts a new developer tool for the supply chain space, or starts a new technology company for the supply chain space. That kind of stuff compounds on itself, and all of those folks need this data.

Brendan (35:07):
So, that's probably a good point to stop and maybe stop myself. This is a fascinating conversation and something I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about, now I feel like I'm getting to know through talking to you guys. Before we wrap up, what would you guys like to point our listeners at? Where can they find you online? Where can they find Axle? Who should they follow on Twitter? What are your plugs?

Dhruv Gupta (35:37):
Yeah. Check us out at axleapi.com or if you're interested in a role here, we're actively hiring axleapi.com/careers. Jin and I also have a podcast, so if you're interested in that, How Tech Becomes Law, available wherever you stream podcasts. Look the two of us up on LinkedIn or Twitter, we're always happy to chat with more folks that are interested in the space.

Brendan (36:05):
Awesome. We'll throw that in the show notes. Jin, Dhruv, thank you so much for joining us. It was a great conversation. Hope we'll get to catch up with you guys soon, as Axle progresses.

Dhruv Gupta (36:16):
Thanks so much, Brendan.

Jin Zang (36:17):
Thank you.

Brendan (36:18):
We'll see you online.

Speaker 5 (36:33):
Thanks for listening to PodRocket. You can find us @podrocketpod on Twitter, and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks.