Kate: Okay. All right. Welcome to PodRocket. I'm Kate, Producer of PodRocket, and with me is Tracy Lee. Hi Tracy. Tracy Lee: Hi, thanks for having me. Kate: Yeah, thanks for coming on. So tell us a little bit about yourself before we start recording. I was asking how to introduce you and you do so many things, so I'll just have you introduce yourself. Tracy Lee: No worries. My name's Tracy. You can follow me on Twitter @LadyLeet. I am the CEO of a company called This Dot Labs. We are a JavaScript consultancy of about 50 developers. It's really fun to work here. I'm also a Google Developer Expert and a Microsoft MVP, and I'm on the RxJS Core Team. So definitely like to keep myself busy. Kate: Yeah, that's for sure. Awesome. So yeah, you told us a little bit about This Dot Labs. Maybe tell us a little bit about This Dot Media and. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Kate: Kind of everything you're working on there. Tracy Lee: Yeah. You know, This Dot Media, it's kind of like, I started This Dot Labs because I really just kind of love community and want to be in the community and help the community, and I feel like providing free content and creating things for the general public and bringing people together is something that's so important. Right. So, really that's kind of what This Dot Media generally does. We have a lot of really amazing events, whether they be State of GraphQL, State of Angular, State of React. We also do things like React Contributor Days, or Vue Contributor Days, partnering with the core teams and just having really great conversations. I feel like, especially during these times, getting together and having those conversations that we miss from the speaker rooms or the hallway tracks at conferences, this kind of replaces that. Tracy Lee: So one of the reasons why we do a lot of the things that we do at This Dot Media is just to try to make a more inclusive space for people. Right. Sometimes you look at the people who are doing amazing things and you can look up to them and everything, but you know one of my goals, generally, I feel like in life is to show people that, hey everybody's human and you know, you don't have to be the, whatever, creator of the internet to hang out and talk to these people. So how do you create more accessible ways where conversations can happen? Because, I think that's really where innovation starts. Kate: Yeah. That's awesome. No, I love that. I was just talking to bdougie. Tracy Lee: Yes. Kate: A couple weeks ago. I was like, we're kind of all talking to each other, like a Podcast Host and Dev Advocates, Evangelists, like enthusiasts. It's like kind of all the same people. So it's really nice to, to hear, trying to get a bigger crowd, I guess. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Kate: So one of your projects is Modern Web Podcast. Tracy Lee: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Kate: And you recently had, let's see, who was it on, to talk about blockchain. Tracy Lee: Oh yes. Kate: And. Tracy Lee: Yes. Well, wait, we actually have that too, but I realized actually the one we just did was this week, so you haven't heard that one yet. The episode with Notter who is at Edge & Node comes out pretty soon. It's a pretty exciting episode, but yeah, we just did have Stephen Fluin. Kate: That's right. Tracy Lee: Who used to be Angular Developer Advocate over at Google and he recently joined Chainlink to do developer advocacy. So it's been really fun to kind of, again, see the blockchain world and you know it's funny because I've, I've looked up blockchain for so long, specifically blockchain development, and thought, man, what is this world? You know, and I haven't dipped my toe in. So once I started dipping my toe in, I realized how easy it was to get in and how easy solidity was and how easy smart contracts were and why, why are people not exploring it more. Tracy Lee: Right. So I think like, myself, people like Stephen Fluin, people like Notter Davit, are really kind of letting the JavaScript developers who are blockchain curious, see how awesome it can be and how easy it is to actually understand and play with, especially if you understand type languages. So yeah, it was fun. It's fun, and I still don't know everything. It's like, again, dipping your toe in, but it's so cool to see how fast that industry's moving, and, if you were following in JavaScript through the ES 2015 phase of, whatever it was like five years ago or something, and seeing all the innovation happen there, that's kind of like what's happening. That foundation is happening in the blockchain development world right now. Kate: Yeah. Cool. That's awesome. Yeah. In that, in that episode, you kind of talk about like JavaScript developers building decentralized apps. I guess I'm kind of more curious about that as well. Tracy Lee: What, what are you curious about? Kate: Yeah, I guess just like, like why, why do you think JavaScript developers should, should start doing that? Tracy Lee: I don't know. Why should JavaScript developers dig into it? Hmm. Well, I feel like generally as developers, if you are a developer, you're usually curious, you're curious about things generally. So, it's so funny because I feel like as an industry we're always going, like if you think back a few years ago, it's like, oh my God can the changes just stop happening, can Ether be stable, can React be stable, can Vue be stable, when is everything going to be stable, where they got all these changes and then the ecosystem started developing and all of a sudden everything is stable, and then everyone's like, wow, it's so boring. Like what, what's new, what's new and exciting. Right. And so I feel like learning blockchain development is like another kind of shiny thing that you can poke your head around. I do think it'll start becoming more and more, it'll become more commonplace to be doing blockchain development. So again, I think we're entering that phase where it's like, oh, what's that blockchain thing. Okay. You know, I don't know why they're called Shadowy Super Coders, but you see a lot of blockchain developers and that's what they have on their bio, which I think is really funny. It's like, do I want to be a Shadowy Super Coder or a 10 X developer, which one's better? Tracy Lee: But, I mean, I think it will be important. I especially really like chain-link for example, because you know there's this idea of blockchain and connecting the external world, right? Like how is blockchain development actually relevant and valuable to us? And it's really not, unless we can use it externally. So being able to connect to external APIs and bring real world instances of why this technology is actually valuable is starting to happen, and that's kind of like the ecosystem, for example, that I feel like chain-link is building, but you know, the more, the more people get, who get interested in any technology, right, the further along it pushes itself. And if you as a developer are looking to make a name for yourself, but obviously everything's crowded, right? Like you can still make a name for yourself, but are you going to be like the guy who wrote NgRx, which was Rob Wormald in Angular, are you going to be like Dan Abramov who wrote Redux in React? No, because those are already taken. But if you look at the blockchain world, there's still so much innovation that needs to happen and there's, so like if you really want to kind of stake your name in something, it's a, it's a fun place to kind of poke around in. Kate: Totally. Yeah. I just listened to your episode on Developer Love, the Developer Love Podcast, and that was the beginning of this year. You kind of cover building a community, creating a space that's welcome to all developers. I guess kind of like beginning of the year versus end of the year. Is there anything that's, you've kind of learnt, especially being in a remote for so long that you kind of want to build on top of, on top of what you're currently doing? Tracy Lee: Hmm. I don't know. I think it's hard to, I think that, I got into development and specifically JavaScript and, you know started writing blogs and all these other things just because I was passionate about something. Right. And I feel like that's kind of what we do right now. We're not trying as a company generally to do something specific and does that hurt us? Yeah. Because you know, we're not like the tech Kent Dodds and we're promoting the testing pyramid and we have one thing we're rallying around. We're just generally excited about the JavaScript ecosystem and helping people out. Right. And so that's kind of where my passion initially lied as well. Like I wasn't like trying to, I don't know, become popular or like what, whatever goals people might have generally. I was just really excited about sharing all the things that I was learning and helping people, and that was fun to me. Right. So I think for us, it's always just building on top of that and staying true to ourselves. Like what are we excited about? What do we care about? And, yeah. So I don't know, maybe we should be more focused, but I think as long as you're having fun, people see that. Right. And I don't know, usually at least that's enough satisfaction for me. Kate: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it looks like you do, you have so much podcasts, you have a lot of segments on your YouTube channel JavaScript After Dark. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Kate: I really like that. It's very fun. Tracy Lee: That one's funny, yeah. Kate: So I think it, it definitely, it's, it's hard to create content. I think that people are like, it's one that it teaches you something and you get something out of it. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Kate: But also that's entertaining as well. Tracy Lee: Yeah, it definitely is. It's so funny because I used to, when we used to go to conferences all the time, Ben Lesh, who is creator for RxJS, he's one of my best friends, and we used to go to all these conferences and it was like, oh man Ben, I'm bored. It's 10:00 PM. Teach me animations in our RxJS, you know, and we would just start, I would just record a video of us messing around with animations in our RxJS, and some of those videos are the most popular on our platform and whatever. I mean, it's just us having fun. Right. So I think the more you can focus on that, I think a lot of beginning developers, or even mid-level developers, right, who come in, I mean, this is senior too, it applies to everybody really. Tracy Lee: It's like, what do I, what do I do with my life? What do I write about, how am I going to sound amazing? I don't have enough interesting stuff to come out, but honestly, if you're just you and you're your authentic self and you just kind of do what you want, then you know that will be hopefully enough. But again, I think it's like, why do you want to do these things? Right. Like most people want to do it, hopefully because they just want to have fun, and I think a lot of times, even myself, as I've gotten, over the years have thought like, oh, what can I do to be impactful? And that's where I always get stuck. If you think about what do I do to be impactful, you're never going to release anything. Kate: Right. Tracy Lee: But if you just focus on like, hey what am I going to do to have fun, then your content hopefully will be loved because people see the excitement that you have. Kate: Right. Totally. Yeah. Well, like very beginning of when I first started working in tech, I was like, I'm like why is Wes Bos so cool? Like why is Scott Tolinski so cool? Tracy Lee: Right. Kate: And it's because they're just like, it's, they're just, that's just who they are. They're just like cool people. Tracy Lee: Right. Kate: So I totally agree. Cool. Well, so okay, it looks like you have a lot of speaking of conferences. Tracy Lee: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Kate: You have so many talks and stuff coming up. I saw you'll be at Angular or I guess you guys are sponsoring Angular Days and then you're also going to be at the Node Conference. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can't even, I don't even know, but yeah. I mean, I'm definitely speaking at Node Conf, I think I'm speaking at Angular Day, who knows, and then I'm speaking at some other conference. Yeah. I was literally like, it's so funny because you know when it rains it pours, so this week I'm like, yeah I guess I agreed to that. Okay. You know, and, and then all of a sudden I'm looking at my October and I'm like, whoa, wow. What am I doing this October? Like, what did I sign up for? But you know, it's exciting too. I think, I love speaking. We recently started, so you know, we, we were looking at the communities and it's actually really sad because, I love local meetups, I run the Modern Web local meetup in the Bay area and Raleigh, and now I'm in Atlanta. Tracy Lee: So I'm poking around at maybe helping with Atlanta JS. Right. But I told myself, I'm not going to start another Modern Web here because I have too many social lives in too many other places. So, but the local meetups have, I feel like really been suffering with all this remote stuff that we're doing lately and not being able to hang out in person. So we initially partnered up with the Angular Core Team and said, man, if we just get the Angular Core Team out to hang out with these local meetups, maybe it'll revive the local meetups. You know, maybe people will start wanting to hang out and engage. So we started angularworldtour.com. So you can go to the angularworldtour.com and you can actually request us to come to your city. So like, yeah. So, Angular Core Team, I typically speak at them about things. Tracy Lee: And then we have people like Debra kurata or John Papa, some just really amazing people who come and speak about stuff they're doing in Angular, and then we just recently launched React World Tour as well. So you can go to reactworldtour.com, and again, you can request us coming to your city, and you know again, that's going to be super awesome. Our first ones in Austin. It's going to be with Ben Lesh, creator of RxJS, and also Brandon Bayer, who is the creator of Blitz.js. Kate: Oh awesome. Tracy Lee: Yeah. So again, but like, you know, it's just having fun. Right? So come have some fun with us and just let us know if you want to hang out with us. Kate: That's awesome. That's cool. We, we've actually had both of them on our podcast as well. Tracy Lee: Oh that's great. Kate: Yeah. Tracy Lee: I love them both, yeah. Kate: We'll have to do a panel. No, I'm just kidding. Maybe not. Yeah. So I guess like, I mean, I feel like you get this question all the time but how do you have time to do all the things that you're doing? Tracy Lee: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. That is quite an interesting question. I don't know, but I think it's just time management and focusing on what's important to you. I definitely always have to sit back and be like, okay, wait, what's important to me. What do I want to do? What don't I want to do? How do I scale myself? You know, what's, I think it all goes back to like, what's important to me. Right. So, and also, am I having fun? If I'm not having fun at something, then I probably should stop doing it. Right. So it's picking and choosing those types of things. But I think everybody has different levels of energy. Right? Like I look at some of my friends, one of my friends Alistair Croll, like you look at him and he organizes a bunch of O'Reilly conferences and I'm like, man, how does your brain go like 10X the speed of mine? Like, it's so crazy to watch him work. Right. I'm sure some people look at me like that too, but whatever. I mean, everyone has their string, so you just play to it, and I think that's important too. Like don't try to be something you're not. Kate: Totally. Yeah. So I guess we're coming up on 2022, which is crazy. Tracy Lee: Yeah. Kate: What are you excited about? Like in JavaScript or anything for in 2022? Tracy Lee: Oh 2022. I think I'm excited about hopefully things starting to open back up. We started seeing a lot of conferences just this past week or so happen in person. So that was interesting, and it's like, okay, this is really actually going to start happening. So I'm excited to kind of see that happen all throughout 2022. I think again, a lot of the chance meetings and the chance collaboration that you get just by, just meeting somebody at a conference is something that we're all kind of missing and craving. So yeah, it'll be, it'll be exciting to see that, and I, you know one thing that I really missed this year was seeing new people, right. Because the conferences were such a great way for newcomers to come out and all of a sudden new energy to, to, to rise up to the top. And while remote conferences are totally amazing, that sort of like, oh, check out the new person on the block, check out these new people, hasn't really happened in the past two years. So being able to see that again, and again most of those people that are incoming and new are folks typically coming from underrepresented groups. Right. So I think being able to just see that again in 2022 will be amazing. Kate: And when I was listening to your episode on Developer Love, you had mentioned you're hiring a lot of companies, you're hiring how to be competitive if you're a hiring manager, hiring developers. I'm curious, what would you say to people who are currently hiring developers and kind of how to create a company that, that a developer would want to work at? Tracy Lee: Yeah, we actually, it's so funny because Rob Osell and I, we actually do a show called the Retro and we're talking about this literally yesterday. Kate: Okay. Tracy Lee: And I think that like, it's really important for people who are the interviewers to start questioning the interview process and thinking about whether the interview process and questions being asked are applicable to the work that a developer will actually be doing in their job. Because I think there's much less tolerance now for dealing with crap or being asked stupid questions. It also kind of sets a culture of what type of team you are, and if you're, if you're giving that impression off in the first interview and you don't mean to, well, then that's not good either. So I think like thinking about how to create more inclusive work processes, especially if you're looking to hire more underrepresented folks, making sure that there are, they see those people on the team, right. Tracy Lee: If you have, for example, three white guys interviewing you, you might think, okay, well basically I'm just going to work with a bunch of white guys. Do I feel comfortable with that? Maybe, maybe not. Right. So those types of questions for us, one thing we do, because I find that people are, can be shy, right. Like during your first interview, if you're not outgoing or extroverted or whatever, you might come across as uninterested, or can't, can't talk, right. Like introverted people are introverted people, whatever. So what we tend to do is we always do our first interview as a set of questions through email and I feel like that also removes a lot of bias, right. Like you could have bias on the way somebody looks, how they present themselves, language barriers for example, right, connection to the internet. I mean, there's so many different things that can throw you off, and I feel like by sending everybody a set of questions and having them answer it, you remove a lot of that bias that might happen, and also it makes the interviewee much more at home or comfortable. Right. Like they can answer the question without, again, freaking out that they have to talk to somebody if they're introverted. Kate: Yeah. You can delete it, delete the line. Tracy Lee: Exactly. Exactly. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big. Tracy Lee: Start over. Kate: Written communication, even though I host this podcast. Very cool. Awesome. Well, Tracy, is there anything that you want our listeners to know or go look at? Tracy Lee: Sure. Well, we're definitely hiring so you can check it out, check us out at thisdotlabs.com, thisdotlabs.com, or this..CO. So it's T H I S D O T.C O. You can find me on Twitter anytime @LadyLeet. I'm always happy to hang out and chat and for women in tech out there, or if you know a woman in tech, we do, do a monthly woman in tech mentoring, which is super awesome. We just had one today, but it's just a private place where we just all hang out and answer your questions, and you can be any level of developer, whether you're looking to get in, or whether you're a senior looking to get to an architect, whatever it is, but it's just a really fun, safe space for people. So highly recommend you come hang out and you can find that information also on our website. Kate: Awesome. Cool. Thank you so much, Tracy and we'll include those links in our show notes. Thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. Tracy Lee: Thank you and thank you for having me. Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to PodRocket. Find us at PodRocketpod on Twitter, or you could always email me even though that's not a popular option. It's Brian at LogRocket.