August panel === [00:00:00] Welcome back to pod rocket, a web development podcast brought to you by log rocket log rocket helps software teams improve user experience with session replay, error tracking and product analytics, try it for free at log rocket. com I'm Emily producer for pod rocket, and we're back with our panel trending in the world of web development, as well as going through some of our hosts hot Takes about what they're fired up about in the world of web development right now. And before we get into it, let's welcome our panel. First, we have Anthony Campolo advocate at edu and host of the FS jam and JavaScript jam podcast. Welcome back. Anthony. Hey, happy to be here. Awesome. Glad to have you back. Next we have Josh Goldberg returning. Josh is an open source maintainer in the TypeScript ecosystem, working on TypeScript ESLint. Welcome back, Josh. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been Always. [00:01:00] And finally, we have one of our PodRocket hosts, Paul, joining to round out the panel. Welcome back as always, Paul. Happy to be here. . Now, let's get into our topics. August has been a bit of a sleepy month so we're going to go through a few things. First, let's touch on Google's Project IDX. In early August, Google introduced Project IDX, a browser based development experience. built on , Google cloud and powered by Cody, a foundational AI model, this is a tool that helps build, manage and deploy full stack apps. IDX is being built as the next productivity booster. There's a lot of thoughts on whether it's going to be different enough from code spaces, stacklets, and CodeSandbox and brings up questions of how it will compare to CodePilot and its AI model. So, let's discuss. First, what are your thoughts on having another IDE enter the space? The more the merrier. IDE fight in the [00:02:00] real world. It's exciting to think it might happen again. What do you see this bringing that other IDEs haven't brought yet? What is making this special? Because I do feel like we do have so many IDEs. Yes. I think Google really wants it to be special at this point. It's not really special though to have a browser cloud based editor with AI. So I think that if you didn't have co pilot along with all this like code spaces stuff, then it could be considered an innovation. But I think they just want to get a piece of the whole AI developer scene and their first model barred. was just didn't seem very good based on like having used it myself and hearing from others. So I'm curious to see how it does on like code type stuff. I don't use Copilot. I literally just write my code to chat GPT and ask it questions. So I'm not really sure [00:03:00] which way works better, but they're probably fairly similar because they both talk to GPT. Whereas with Google, it's did they get to train on The sum total of github. They're public repos. Sure. I don't know about private repos though. Whereas OpenAI, I probably trained on everything. Yeah. For all we know, open AI was training on Harry Potter. Knows everything about Harry Potter. So gpt2, actually one of their use cases, example use cases, was Harry Potter fan fiction back in 2019. Definitely in the public domain. Yes. Yeah. So when it comes to Google like, they obviously have unlimited resources. Do you think that they might be able to dominate this space? Or Anthony, you're saying, do you think that devs are already reliant enough on GPT and co pilot that this just is noise in a very crowded space? Well, I think if you want to dominate a space you need to have a tool that doesn't get canceled. So that's [00:04:00] maybe the first thing they're gonna have to accomplish is just getting back developers trusted. Wanting to use a tool. We also, we haven't mentioned yet that none of us have used this thing because it's not actually public. Like you can just go look at videos and join a waitlist. I did join the waitlist, but so far we haven't gotten a crack at it. this is all speculation, but I think A lot of people are worried that, to your point, Anthony, that this is going to go into the Google graveyard. In your opinions, what do you think that this would need to do to make sure that doesn't happen? Again, speculation, but you're very smart. Well, I don't use a ton of Google stuff in general. It's never really been like in terms of developer things, like obviously I'd use the search engine. I have a Gmail account, but. Yeah the fact that they can shut down domains, which seems as central to web development as you can possibly get, doesn't really seem like anything is safe, and they've, they had an RSS [00:05:00] reader that was really popular for a while, and so, I'm not sure if it comes down to actual usage, or whether they can strategically align it with some product. So, I just don't really know what the thinking is. And it may be like an AWS thing, or each project has a different team with a different idea. And then they all kind of shoot for the moon and they treat it like a VC thing where most of them are going to fail. I think that is a, can be a good approach if you don't put the failures out as a product and then have people use them for a couple years and then you declare it a failure. Yeah, there's an interesting, almost sweet kind of irony here where Microsoft had a Almost similar situation with Bing, where Microsoft made Bing among other reasons, because its products could not use Google. It's just not a good idea when you're a major multinational corporation to rely heavily on another major multinational corporation that competes with you.[00:06:00] So here we see Google wanting to pull developers away, I'm assuming from VS Code and Microsoft GitHub and Copilot, but they also have a much newer code base, which gives them the opportunity to innovate in the editor space. Just going through the idx. dev. Introduction page. They're talking about all sorts of features that I think would be rather difficult to add to VS code today, like having integrated app deployments and previews. So my hope is that this avoids the kind of Google graveyard jinx or curse and is able to do something significantly better than VS Code. At the very least, that would be awesome on its own. At the very best, that would probably spur innovation in the editor space, which I think has been lacking the last few years. But, worst or maybe even average case scenario, we just have another entrant that spurs people to do better with AI. I think no matter what, it's probably good. So this is, I think, exciting and a nice thing to see. It's interesting you brought up the deployment thing because I was thinking they're at a disadvantage because [00:07:00] they're not Under the same umbrella as GitHub, like GitHub, the same, it's all under the same company as the editor, but you're right in the sense that you hook up to a GitHub repo, which then usually hooks up to a deployment provider. So you have a deployment provider that has really good Git integration, like your typical Jamstack. That's nice. But if you have an editor in your cloud, then you can just deploy, but then you're deploying to Google Cloud and no one wants that. I think that's one thing to call out here is that it. It's more than just an IDE potentially, and this is like a full stack buy in that we're faced with right here, and it could fundamentally change the way that somebody could enter themselves into the market and deploy their app. I do agree in general that like two years ago I got really into Gitpod and I was like this is the future of dev because it was really [00:08:00] easy to get spun up but you could also do serious work and you could also integrate it with like your PR workflows so it was really useful with the Redwood team. And it was a company that, that Tom had been investing in. So I think that in general, especially for newer devs, coding in the browser is just the way to go now and having tools like this really bring down the barrier of entry. It's just a question of can it ever be as snappy as local dev, which is what's always going to hold it back. I'm always concerned with browser based tools. I do a lot of work on airplanes. I've worked a lot with people who are not in super fast 7g home internet situations, and most tools that I've seen built for the browser do not adapt well to offline use. Google is probably better positioned than most in the industry to make an offline capable web tool. And I would love to see this become the editor for say. Chromebooks over the years, but it's difficult and I'm scared of [00:09:00] people inherently aligning towards something that just fundamentally does not work in offline or partially offline environments. Are either of you concerned about the siloing of talent with browser based tools? Because that sort of like 7g joke that you pushed there Josh Is very true for a lot of the population on our planet. This says that. Chrome is so big, but there's lots of different companies that are building editors in Chrome you have we named them all at the top, there's five or six of them, so I feel like there's actually good competition in Chrome. Yeah. Yeah. The editor browser space, I agree, in terms of the actual browsers, even the non Chrome ones are still using Chromium. So, that is definitely something that I think is a slightly separate conversation, but is very interesting, the fact that, one company that can control the browser gets to control the internet to a very large extent. In that same vein I think, Josh, you mentioned this [00:10:00] if IDX does not become this next great IDE you hope that innovation comes from it, and to your point, Anthony we don't always want the big companies dominating the space, because that doesn't mean we always get the best technology. What would you all want to see from IDEs in the future that maybe build on this, or... What are you, what do you think is lacking from current IEDs that you want to see evolve in the future? I think the low level primitives of surfacing. Complaints to users need a lot of work. Everything from unit test failures to build or lint or compile complaints. Right now, a lot of them are just plain text, maybe with colors and a lot of editors, including, and especially VS code. And efforts like the Matt Pocock TS error translator in the TypeScript space try to just make sense of all the jargon that's being spit out at you. So I, I personally would be much more excited by an IDE that's just like VS code or JetBrains, but with way better [00:11:00] error reporting and no other changes than any sort of AI shenanigan, especially if it's one that is like the third or fourth public tool to use. A mascot called Cody. Did you know about Wallaby and Quokka? Yes. no. Enlighten us. You wanna talk about those Joshua? They're cool. I feel like that's in line with what you're talking about. Oh yeah. It. I haven't used them in years. One of them just runs JavaScript continuously and shows you messages in line from like console logs and values. And the other continuously reruns unit test, like the newer VS code unit test runner. Am I remembering that right? The Yeah that's the idea. Basically, it gives you a constant feedback about the state of your code in terms of what would it spit out if you ran it right now, which is really useful once you have it turned on. Yeah, I think we're seeing this more with like terminals, things like warp, I feel like we got the sense that there's a lot of UX improvements that could be had here with the editor. I don't know because I just use the editor I [00:12:00] have and I've figured out how to use it and I don't really figure out what's missing, but I feel like Josh, working on you work on tooling a lot more than me. So you're probably constantly hitting weird vs code things just through TypeScript. And I really liked that call out too, because I feel like this is in line with the ethos of a lot of people who are coming into the space now that want a better tool, not a more efficient tool, like we can already build everything like the app that you want to build probably has already been built in some flavor. So we don't need like to do it faster. Maybe we just need to do it. Better with a better tool and something like that fundamentally brings a different user experience With your information in the way you're processing it versus Josh. He called out. These are a I am shenanigans, right? I like that word. It's fun word shenanigans is so broadly universally applicable to so many things in tech. But yeah, I honestly, I'm not even coming at this from the perspective of someone who works in dev tooling. I'm coming at it from an [00:13:00] educator. Perspective. New people who are learning to code most of the time their concerns are not, man, I really wish I could deploy simultaneously to 15 different clusters and get CDNs. It's I have 15 lines of squigglies and ASDF. And I have no clue what any of this means. And it's all one of two text colors. Like Codecademy and look at the learner forums. And It's so much more biased to those intro level things than any of the stuff we're talking about here. So that's why this is cool and I think it's a really nice long term play, but short term it's not what I'm particularly excited about. Well, I'm going to make the case that the AI is the most important thing for what you just said here, because I think that one thing that I've found chatGBT can do, and can do really well, is that when you're writing code, and you have something broken, you have an error message, just like a normal stack trace nothing too wild. And what I do is I basically give chatGBT like, the code in the file and then I say I like ran this command to start [00:14:00] it and then this is the error I got and depending on what the project is complexity of the code whether I'm using third party libraries You know all that stuff a lot of times it will just tell me in plain English exactly what's broken Exactly what could be changed to possibly fix it And that's the other thing that, just reading error messages was so hard for me, and I think hard for a lot of beginners, because you don't know that you're getting a specific line that applies to a specific thing and has a certain context along with it, and the context is not always present in the larger project. And asking chatGBT to explain my error messages, just, for me, if I had that when I was a beginner, it would have made a huge difference. Do either of you feel like chat GPT is like that is the end tool here? Like we could march forward with a better UI UX on the local dev side and with some sort of textual Because it feels like Google's really taking this like [00:15:00] cloud thing seriously where it's like we own the repo We're gonna take control of the deployment pipeline at a very like tooling operational Capacity versus let me go read like a few paragraphs from These are two different interfacing levels with the team or the individual. Well, I think this is a question for the entire AI industry right now, and every single product that's going to be built in AI, which is how much do we want to embed the AI smarts within the application? You could have it in the editor just give you an additional explanation for your error messages, and that would not be interfacing with it in the same kind of chat way. But you could have it embedded within the program. So I think it's always going to be a little bit of both. I like actually being able to talk to a thing cause it's, it is rubber ducking to a certain extent. But it's not clear. It's clearly not the best interface because it's just silly to have to type your code out when, if it was just in your [00:16:00] editor, which is the idea with Copilot, it should be aware of your project already, and you wouldn't have to explain, I'm trying to do this, and it's broken. It would just know. I want to point out more directly this time that there literally is already an AI, that is context aware, called Cody. From source graph, which is in my experience, probably the best AI I've ever used for Devin. But I want to make another analogy here. I want to bring up the concept of smart cars or self driving cars, because when you bring up autonomous vehicles, everyone gets all excited about Tesla and self driving and Waymo and all this. And that to me is like the AI we're seeing now is real early stage, very promising, very exciting. But the vast majority of cars on the road, AKA editors are not that they are like my Subaru, which keeps lane assist and can Drive at a constant pace with a maximum or minimum distance with the car in front of me. Innovation does not often favor massive leaps forward. It more, much more often favors incremental leaps or incremental little steps that improve on what's there before. So yes, I think as you're saying, [00:17:00] Anthony, the AI long term will be awesome. That is a better solution. In the abstract, then I don't know, little guiding in the tool, like having something explained to you, rubber ducking, et cetera, is better, but it's going to be a while. I think before we have a eyes that are cheap, that are able to do that at scale economically and are significantly better than an editor that just. I apologize if I'm just right now gives, because you're already gonna get the feedback from the editor regardless. So I guess what do you mean by feedback from the editor? Right now chat, GBT and other AIs are non deterministic and they're expensive. Expensive financially, like they are costing Microsoft, Google and so on, whatever untold millions of dollars per year. And they are expensive computationally. It's not something you can easily run on your computer, which is why we're tying IDEs like IDX to the cloud. But at the end of the day, they just give you the thing that you were trying to figure out yourself. Which can be helpful, but is not the same as a tool giving you a better little red squiggly or explaining, Hey, you missed the semi colon here. That's why this for loop is running [00:18:00] infinitely or something like that. Like it's the same end results, but that though it doesn't explain your errors to you, yes, we are in agreement that is annoying and troublesome. Yeah, I think, with self-driving cars, it, if it makes a single mistake, people could die. Whereas we make dozens of mistakes in our code every single day. We're working your code. So if chat G B T can be correct 95% of the time. That's gonna be correct more often than I am, and that's not the same as driving, so you need to be not crashing every single time. So yeah, I think it's like, it can be an accelerator, it can make you go faster, and I don't know man, I feel like for a beginner, being able to actually have something that explains things to you in English language, like you're a person, Is just you don't get that from using it, I don't know, maybe, but when I [00:19:00] was learning how to use VS Code and I felt like I was never really getting useful feedback from my environment until I learned how to code well enough to understand the environment I was even in. I feel like there's another anxiety that I have about things being like very silver spoon fed, whether it be explaining an error, a squiggle. Or on chat to PT, like coming from the ops world myself, like I started in a terminal SSH din and VI stuff. There's no, I don't know when the AI is going to come there. And how maybe they'll have some WebSocket service you can hook your shell up into in the future or something that can assist you. But there's also value I feel in being able to bleed skills. From this higher application space down into the operations down to the deployment and in spaces like this I don't know if you guys share this anxiety at all I think this is was what I was getting at [00:20:00] earlier with do you think talent is being siloed? Are we creating artificial mental barriers between who we can hire and at what level we can hire that skill? Yes, that's not really because of the companies or tools though, it's just because it's really hard to even understand how to get into tech and have a path for it and have like role models. And yeah, so I feel like that's a, that's going to be a big thing in terms of just getting more people involved in tech and, there's like centralization around. Silicon Valley, and that can always be an issue, but the internet's also really big. There's a lot of startups, a lot of companies. Paul, I'm actually not sure I follow you. Do you, could you give an example of what like two silos you envision might be made more Yeah well, I feel like if I was debugging a Python script in VS code and I had a AI kind of explained to me why something crashed [00:21:00] or, why my types, which, I know aren't required in Python, I like to use types when I can, though, like why isn't this checking out? Why am I getting a squiggle? Versus I have 100% when I first started my career been in a console with no colors in VI, there was no Vim, you're in VI and whatever default was, They're like hacking together production script to fix some servers and the skills that you might, if you come from the other end of the stick, which I've definitely, I have colleagues who have come from the other end of the stick where you start with writing software and you get more into operations, you really want to foster and grow those skills of problem solving and understanding textual based feedback and input. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. I, it might be inevitable. 30 years ago, people were complaining that manual memory management was going away as a skill, rightfully complaining it's useful to know, and also wrongfully complaining because it's a waste of time if you're working in JavaScript. So, I don't know. By the way, I'm aware what I just said is probably going to get quote tweeted to death [00:22:00] on x. com. But yeah, I think it's a good point. I don't know. I think we'll have to see it shake up. It's hard to say. I'm gonna rein us in a little bit so we can keep on track, but love this discussion emanating from IDX. And I guess we'll see what happens. I think it's releasing at the end of August, maybe, but or beginning of September, but we're going to move on. Now we're going to go to the super base launch week. , Mid month super base had it's eighth launch week and it introduced a slew of new features, including branching, hugging face for the Vercel integration and more. So before we get into the. New updates. Does anyone want to just explain what super base is? It's a database. That's like Firebase, but better, because it's Postgres, and the developers there actually care and are very cool. Love it. Love it. All right. So, with the release did any of you look at the new features? What did you think of [00:23:00] them? Do you like the improvements that they came up with? SubaBase is just, they always ship so much. This is their eighth launch week. I remember when they started doing launch weeks, and The, the amounts that they launched just in this one alone is pretty, pretty amazing. There's Postgres language server hugging face integration, which is an AI thing. Super based local dev. I remember they used to just make you spin up this crazy Docker compose file. So that's probably the solution for that. Superbase Studio 3. 0, which comes with an AI SQLite editor, so you can write English language queries in a database and get SQL, which is something that database people have probably wanted for 50 years. And, yeah. Marketplace integrations HIPAA can't go without HIPAA, but I don't really have any projects on super base. Like I've tried along with all these databases, but I'm not running like a company on it. [00:24:00] So a lot of this stuff is just like cool, but I'm not really going to use it. I might check out the AI SQL thing though. I think one cool thing they also had was this new kind of real time channel capability. I forget the name exactly, but you can have these subscribers and consumers and you can push updates. And there's a really cool example I saw where this guy was giving talks, he was a public speaker and he wanted ways for people to interact like emojis onto his presenter screen. And he was able to throw it together with this. It's probably some like WebSocket based. API that they rolled out for us which is neat. I like how Superbase keeps hammering on real time. Cause that's one thing that Firebase like is able to pull a lot of people in with. So it's great to see them pushing that envelope more. Real time broadcast and presence. Is this it? Is this what you're talking about? I honestly don't remember the name of the product that, which they released, but. presence can be used to share state [00:25:00] between clients. Each client maintains their own piece of state within the shared state. Uses in memory CRDTs. Ah, that makes sense. This is like how Google Docs work. Client to client communication is getting more and more popular, which is exciting to see, keeping the data on the nodes. we've recently had a lot of innovation in server to client, like with RC's Astro Remix before that and so on. I wonder if in the next two to three years, real time is going to be the next big shake up, where maybe JavaScript will have bigger TC329 proposals around observables and or signals, if more platforms like SuperBase start pushing real time for cell ads, some sort of integration. That'd be wonderful. either of you tried Quick yet? A little bit yeah. I feel like it plays into the real time world a little bit with the way it streams the operable JavaScript over. Yeah, I feel like with real time streaming in the framework is a little bit different. I was thinking of like PartyKit. I [00:26:00] always see people complaining about oh, once I get to X number of active connections in super base, the thing conks out. And if you develop a deep into like the real time capabilities, there might be need to be some things that you need to develop to take yourself off of super base. It is open source, right? So you can always host it yourself. Give it the juice it needs. I guess this is like in, in the cloud sense of things. One thing that Firebase does, it'll just scale seamlessly as much as you need it to. Like Anthony came again, Anthony introduced us into the segment. There's a difference in attitude and team behind that's driving these tools. Have either of you guys seen a team that has felt hindered by the cloud offering of super base at all, or is that still to be seen? I've been on and seen teams that have been hindered by the cloud offerings by the company they were tied into, but not specifically Superbase now. not more than any [00:27:00] other kind of tool like this in the space. I feel like With a lot of these things, if you're worried about hitting scalability issues, that means you have enough users that you can book a call with the CEO of the company and talk it out and maybe get a deal or let them know when you're gonna have high traffic or something like that. So I think that people have this idea that, there's, these things are just these faceless companies. Actually, there's people behind it, so if you're concerned about a certain thing one talk to them about it and see. If you can work it out, I feel they have so much VC money that they could just throw money at the problem for a certain amount of time. How long they can do that is, of course, the open question, but I think if you're worried about that kind of stuff, then you're going to be running on AWS and that's just it. It's nice to work with the company while they're still all fresh and exciting and full of money. Instead of full of trying to nickel and dime [00:28:00] you and it's odd because super base has been around for quite a while now It's been quite a few years and they still feel like a young fresh exciting company and mostly positive ways I don't know how long a company can keep that up. But same with like for sale. It's for the most part it's very nice to see that they are offering all this stuff that works really well. And now they're integrating. So we can meet those two worlds together. So like IDX, one thing that they're touting just to call back to our first topic here is they're like, okay, we can full stack your way to success here deployment. And then I feel like now we're talking about the flip side of the coin where it's like, Hey, there's this open source. Backend is a service called super base. Awesome team behind it. And now if you're concerned about deployment, you can hook it right up to Vercel, so it feels like we're getting a chasm sometimes where it's like you can take the red pill or the blue pill and the do it yourself, like open source, like community way is getting stronger and stronger. And it's really an enticing option for people coming into the field. I [00:29:00] mean, You go into Vercel and the deployment is. Beautiful to look at if you go back 10 years, you're looking at just console logs or some other crap that you really don't want to look at. So I'm just very excited about the open source community driven ways, even though like I know Vercel is a host cloud platform. It's not open source, but it's the super base is part of this puzzle piece here that really like drives home. Hey, maybe you can not buy into a completely full faced full stack solution. Yeah, you see that with AppRite too. I feel like with any of those things, though, if You're going to use it because you want to use the service, or you're going to run it yourself and you want to just run it yourself from the beginning so you're not inhibited by the specific design decisions that this one thing made for a platform, so. Yeah, I don't know. It's, I've never really found that, that argument to be really that persuasive beyond it gives you a sense of security knowing that you can run it just because you can introspect it and you could check it [00:30:00] for, you know, bugs and security vulnerabilities and things like that. So, I think the best case scenario is... As much stuff as open source as possible. And then companies can have proprietary stuff to run that way better and way sweeter. But with IDX, like I'm sure none of that's going to be open source. probably not. Yeah, that's one of the big advantages of VS Code, right? That it is totally open source. That's why it's got a lot more extensions, community contributions, etc. than, say, something like JetBrains or VS Code. Or rather, pardon me, VS, the original. I do want to note, though, that continuing the trend of open source stuff, even platforms like Purcell have competition from more open source, or at least open spec friendly competitors like flight control, where nowadays all you need is some platform, say AWS, and you can have everything running in open source or with a company like flight control that lets you eject as much as you want. So I think we're in maybe not a golden age, but at the very least a [00:31:00] gilded age of being able to control your own destiny as deployers. That's what we all want to hear. We're in the next gilded age. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that, Deployment tools in the last couple of years have gotten really good. There's this term Tom used to use when he's talking about Redwood Universal Deployment Machine. So you just have this like hunk of code that's a back end and a front end. And you hook it to a Git repo, and you hook that thing to someone else's thing and then their thing runs your thing. And we're not there for all frameworks and all deployment platforms, but it's getting closer and closer for most people. We're going to move into our hot take section. But before we do that, I do want to say that this episode was brought to you by LogRocket. LogRocket offers session replay, issue tracking, and product. analytics to help you quickly surface and solve impactful issues affecting your user experience with log bracket. You can find And solve issues, fashion, solve and solve issues faster, [00:32:00] improve conversion and adoption and spend more time building a better product. All right. Okay. Now we're going to get into my favorite part, which is the hot takes where we talk about things that we're either annoyed by excited about, or just. Can't get over. So let's start with Josh, tell us your hot take and then Paul and Anthony, feel free to discuss. Oh, no. We were talking before the podcast how it feels like August was dead. I was scouring Twitter. I don't know what hot takes to send out. My big bully pulpit lately has been to use a formatter for formatting and a linter for linting, but I don't even know if that's a hot take anymore. I haven't gotten a lot of pushback on that from most people. So, I don't know. Can someone shout something at me? So Josh, you're saying keep prettier for prettier And keep the linter for the winter. Yeah, ! Right now the two popular formatters in the JavaScript space are Dprint and Prettier. [00:33:00] Prettier is much more popular. Dprint is written in Rust. It is faster and used by Dino. And then the big Linter is still ESLint. And the two don't do each other's concerns particularly well. Prettier is almost incapable of running lint rules that check for logic. And ESLint, although it can run formatting rules, is not particularly good at it. So, use ESLint for... Definitely logic and maybe also style concerns. And then formatters like prettier for formatting concerns. It's not the most exciting hot take. I think that's why a lot of people aren't getting, passionate about it. I'm sorry. I don't have something like tabs or spaces to bring to the table. This is an embarrassing first showing for me. And I do feel bad about myself. It's totally fine. We'll have you back on again when things are, A little more active. I'm sitting here like totally agreeing with Josh. So Dang it. No, no controversies on this one. Well, how about Anthony, do you want to give us your hot take? I don't know if that's like a hot take, but just a conversation that was happening was... [00:34:00] And I feel like the term JAMstack. I don't know, do people here have strong feelings about the term JAMstack? about the acronym itself, Anthony, Well, it hasn't been an acronym for years. I used the wrong word. the term, well, so it started as an acronym and then they tried to phase out the acronym because they wanted it to be a more general definition. So Jamstack used to mean JavaScript, APIs, and markup, but they found that what they're trying to explain is like a static site hooked up to APIs with like component frameworks and that didn't entirely get the idea across because you had things like Eleventy which don't particularly fit into that mold or even like Hugo. So, Jamstack became more and more basically whatever features Netlify supported, because they're the ones who, [00:35:00] started with the term originally. And, the last two years especially, there was a lot of conversation among people in the community about whether the term should be dropped or not. And then eventually Netlify, well Redwood actually dropped it first. Redwood dropped it like two years ago. They took, they, we used to say we're bringing full stack to the Jamstack and now we say we're the JS framework for apps and startups. And Netlify dropped it, dropped Jamstack and now they're using the term like composability and composable web. Which Edgio was a year ahead of them on. We had a composability summit. And that is the idea of you have a decoupled front end, back end, and you can use pieces to slot your app together like Lego pieces. So, yeah, a lot of people are just no longer using the term Jamstack, with the exception of all of these Git based CMS tools. You have things like Tina CMS and [00:36:00] Cloud Cannon. And Plenty, and they were created as like the thing that goes along with the JAMstack if you wanted still to have a content management system and a visual editor And stuff like that. So I'm going to be curious to see how those companies go if they stick with the term JAMstack or if they try and rebrand because they're still like you can go to any of these companies and they'll have a JAMstack, CMS. Link on their website, so, yeah, and I wrote an issue about this on JavaScript Jam that we could link to, and I got very good SEO on it, if you Google, is the Jamstack dead, it'll be the first thing to come up. Well, Anthony, do you feel like it's dead or do you feel like it's evolving in its present day use case? Yeah, so, this is what most of the people, and this conversation started with Brian Rinaldi, who was doing Jamstack before the term Jamstack was invented, and will do it long after. [00:37:00] And his take is what a lot of other Jamstack pioneers are saying is they're saying the term is dead because now this is just the way people do web development now. And Jeff Escalante said it is the most outrageous concession in a web dev argument he's ever heard, that we lost because we've become the sum total of web development. So I don't think that's like entirely true, but there is something to it people are very comfortable using things like Vercel and Netlify and having a backend spun up somewhere else. So they connect their project with, that's what I was always getting across with FS jam, FS jam podcast is short for full stack jam stack. Cause the jam stack was always just a front end. There was no backend. Then you had things like SubaBase come around and all of a sudden you had a backend to go along with this really nice front end. So, I think Fullstack Jamstack became the thing, not Jamstack, and yeah, that's why I will continue to use the term [00:38:00] for the foreseeable future until Chris and I come up with a better one, I guess. Who cares? I truly do not see the value in debating this. It was a term that got public adoption and was good for marketing, but we've, it's been quite a few years and we've evolved quite a lot in the industry. I quite like how Kent C. Dodds puts terms like PESPA and MESPA and whatnot to the forefront, but this feels like something that got much more exposure and bloat than it should have. The term JAMstack evolved to mean so many different things to so many different people that you can't pronounce it officially dead or alive. It's just floating in the ether. Also, who is the official, who is officiating the death of it? What governing body standards procedure has determined which terms are officially alive or dead at this point? So, Jamstack started with Netlify, and Netlify created Jamstack. org, and, They, since they stopped using it, that's [00:39:00] why people now are considering it quote unquote dead, and because Brian Rinaldi, someone who is like a, he wrote, he literally, he wrote a book called The Jamstack Book, and he wrote this article that kind of kicked this off. So, I think this is, as someone who's been seeing this conversation play out over many years, this is the first time where it's very clear that the majority of people are saying like, yeah we're ditching the term. So, I think it is likely we can actually declare it officially dead. Some people are declaring it dead probably prematurely the last year or two. But, I think what they pioneered and what we have now with tools like Netlify and Vercel has become pretty significant. So, yeah, I don't know. I'll pull one out for the JAMstack. Paul, do you have anything controversial you want to talk about? perhaps not controversial, but something that was inspiring to me is I had the privilege, Thanks to Emily. She put together a [00:40:00] episode with Kyle Simpson and I don't know if you folks have heard of Kyle, but he's yeah. Yeah, right. so he's working on socket supply company. That's his, His mission right now. And it's like this framework for you to deploy the client first applications, like you own the data on your phone. On your computer and it implements these native APIs. And it was just so inspiring talking to Kyle. Cause he was like, listen, this cloud stuff, It's got to stop. It's got to stop. You don't need to put your grocery list in the cloud. Like it can just live on your phone. And it just that's a refreshing thing to hear. it feels empowering to the user. And I think sometimes. I'm no, I'm going to correct myself. I feel like 99% of the time we lose sight of making better apps and we're looking at making better tools for us, for Josh and Anthony and Paul. And I'm like this is a breath of fresh air. So I'm just, I love to see that. I think it's important to remind [00:41:00] ourselves of who we're building for and it's not us. Well said. I also enjoyed that interview very much. Strongly agree. All right. Yeah. And if anyone's interested, it should be coming out When this releases probably the week after. So watch out for that on pod rocket. All right. Thank you all for joining us today. We are, we're coming up on time. I would love to know each of you where our listeners can find you. Josh, you want to start it off? Sure. I am Joshua K. Goldberg on fostered on Twitter slash X blue sky, github. com, Twitch, and YouTube. Joshua K. Goldberg. And I'm AJCWebDev on All the things GitHub, Twitter, Twitch, AJCWebDev. com and AJCWeb. dev. And yeah, check my stuff out. I also, Host podcasts and do a weekly Twitter space with JavaScript [00:42:00] Jam and write a... Newsletter, I guess do a lot of that stuff through my job at edgio. So yeah, putting out content all the time And Paul. I'm just here on pod rocket every week, getting the privilege to interview like some of the great minds. So just go to pod rocket. Hell yeah All right. Thank you everyone for joining us today. Uh, everyone had a great summer, and we will be back next month with a listener question episode. So if you have any questions about web development, feel free to send them my way. My Twitter handle will be in the description. Thank you again everyone for joining me today. thanks. Simply. for having us. This was fun.