Kate: Hello, and welcome to PodRocket. I'm Kate, the producer of PodRocket with me today, hosting, is Brendan. Hi, Brendan. How are you doing? Brendan: Hey, Kate. I'm doing good. Kate: Thanks for joining us as our host today. And our guest is Ben Meyers, web developer and accessibility advocate. Hi, Ben, how are you doing? Ben Myers: I'm doing well. I'm super excited to be on and chatting with you all today. Love chatting about accessibility. Kate: Thanks for joining us. And we were connected through the Lunch Dev Discord. We just had Travis Waith-Mair yesterday, I believe, or two days ago. We're representing Lunch Dev Discord on PodRocket this month. Ben Myers: I do have to say, I just love this kind of like circular nature of like, oh, I've been on this thing, let me recommend this other person. And it's just like this circle of everyone recommending each other to do content creation in all these spaces. If you haven't found an online community like that, I'd recommend it. It's great. Kate: Totally. Yeah. I know, we were joking that every time I mention Anthony Campolo's name, we now need to have like a bingo card with FSJam. They definitely have helped us connect to a lot of our guests. So there's another spot for the bingo card. Well, yeah, so just to get started, I guess, what does it mean for web applications and websites to be accessible? Ben Myers: Absolutely. So I think the simplest definition is that it is usable, and usable well, if that word order makes sense by disabled people. And so oftentimes when we think about disability, it's sometimes helpful to break disability down into different types. For instance, you've got your visual disabilities, like blindness or low vision or color blindness. You've got hearing disabilities, I, myself, am part of hearing. You've got your physical and motor disabilities. So maybe someone has limb abnormalities or they just have other disabilities that make it hard to navigate a device with any degree of precision. And then there's also cognitive disabilities. So you're talking, learning disabilities, you've got like dyslexia or ADHD or short term memory loss, for instance. Ben Myers: And so when we consider the broad spectrum of disability that exists in the world, we have to operate under the assumption that our users span that spectrum. And so accessibility, what that really means is recognizing that those people, they deserve just as much access to our products and the tools that we're building. And considering what are their needs and how do we make this experience usable for them in particular, that's really what accessibility is. Brendan: Yeah. And another thing that I've sort of read a little bit about and seen in some of your content is also this idea that, obviously, there are people with permanent needs for accessibility, but also that accessibility kind of is for everyone at different points in our life, we may need different accommodation from the tools that we're using. Could you talk a little bit about that as well? Ben Myers: Absolutely. So, first of all, if you follow disability communities, which I think a core aspect of accessibility for me is disability justice. If you follow disability activists, especially disabled activists, you'll sometimes encounter this term temporarily able bodied. It's this notion that, for instance, you might not consider yourself disabled now, but you could be disabled later as you age, or if you get injured. So disability is for everyone in part because anyone can I'm disabled, and become disabled at any given moment. Ben Myers: But also I think accessibility is crucial, even if you're not disabled. There's this term, again, from disabled communities called the curb cut effect, which actually goes back to the city of Berkeley in the '60s. UC Berkeley there during the peak of the civil rights movement was a hotbed for student activism. And there were some disabled students, specifically who used wheelchairs, that were able to advocate for Berkeley instating curb cuts, which are the slopes in sidewalks that, when the wall slopes down into the intersection, those like ramps there, those are curb cuts. Ben Myers: It's hard to believe that those weren't incredibly commonplace, but prior to the '50s and '60s, those were virtually nowhere. It took military veterans coming home to Kalamazoo, Michigan and disabled students in Berkeley, really advocating for these curb cuts before they started appearing places. And once they did, those cities found that lots of people were using them, not only wheelchair users, but also, for instance, parents with strollers or people with skateboards and bicycles or anyone with luggage. Ben Myers: So the curb cut effect is this notion that when you build for accessibility, when you build for disabled users, lots of people can benefit in ways that you don't expect. Some modern technological equivalence of that could be, for instance, closed captions, which ostensibly are for people who are deaf and hard of hearing, or people with auditory processing disorders, but which can also benefit non-native speakers as well as people in loud environments, such as airports and bars. So when we say accessibility is for everyone, we mean that when you consider the needs of disabled users, you're going to, by extension, create a better product for everyone. Brendan: Yeah. And I think there's a lot as well, just in encouraging developers and people working on web applications to think more broadly about who's going to be using the things we create, and not just sort of think of those people as clones of ourselves. Ben Myers: Yes. Brendan: Do you think there's a sort of like top three or top five, what is your checklist of things that web developers should have in mind to create accessible applications? What should be sort of forefront and in thinking? Ben Myers: Yeah, that's great. So on the notion of, we assume that users are kind of clones of ourselves, there's a saying in design spaces, which is, you are not the user. You can't make assumptions about how your user will interact with your page, because users are diverse. I would say, let's see, top things to consider, a big one for me as a web developer is semantic markup. So if you're unfamiliar, that is using HTML tags and attributes that reflect the intended purpose, functionality, behavior, meaning, et cetera, of your UI controls of, of your interface. So we're using an element called nav, there is a nav tag to represent our navigational elements. Not just because, oh, some theoretical abstract sense of semantic purity, but in part, because folks who, for instance, use screen readers, which is something that we might talk about shortly, can basically skim through the page by going to those different hot like landmarks. Ben Myers: And so when you say that this area is a navigation, you essentially invent a shortcut that someone can hop directly to their navigation, which is great for folks who can't just scroll through the page up and down really quickly to skim through it. They need to be able to hop to different areas. Ben Myers: So appropriate use of semantic markup creates a strong, strong foundation for devices. Because when you think about it, all web use is... anytime someone's accessing our page on a device, it is device mediated. Some software has interpreted our web content as a user experience. And so the more expressive we are about our web experience, the better of an experience devices can provide their users. So semantic markup creates a strong foundation. Ben Myers: I would say another thing is finding ways to introduce redundancy into your design. Folks who are colorblind, for instance, may not be able to register the difference between red and green or there's many different kinds of color blindness, but red/green color blindness is especially common, especially in men. And when you think about it, red and green are the colors that we use to communicate form status, "Oops, you filled in this form wrong," or, "Congratulations, you filled it in correctly." Success and error are the same color for many people. And so figuring out alternative ways to communicate information like, yes, you can still use green and red, but combine it with a check mark in an X and even better combine it with text. Ben Myers: Text is a universal medium that just about anyone can access. So finding redundant ways to expose information is key. I would say, another thing is testing, and frequent testing. Hopping into different assistive technologies, such as screen readers or magnifiers. Getting really good at using those assistive technologies, like your disabled users will be using it. Ben Myers: I often tell people as a developer, as a web developer, as a frontend engineer, whatever you want to call yourself, become a power user of assistive technology, because your users already are. They're going to be using all those features the way they expect it. And so if you want to get a sense for what your user is experiencing, you have to be your user, in that regard. You have to use those technologies the way your users are. Otherwise, you are vaguely ambling in the direction of what you think might be an accessible experience, but you're actually performing accessibility into the void, and you're not getting that feedback as to what your users actually experience. So those are maybe some of my three key things to think about. Brendan: And I really loved that point about sort of all devices are kind of mediating your interaction with the web in some way, and web browsers are kind of just one of those. You mentioned screen readers a couple times, as somebody who's primarily a backend developer in my career, I'm not super familiar with the sort of range of common assistive technologies that are out there. What are some of the sort of common devices or technologies that people use to interact with the web sort of beyond just your web browser? Ben Myers: Absolutely. So the one that you tend to hear about most in accessibility spaces is a piece of software called a screen reader. Most operating systems actually come with a screen reader built in. So if you're on windows, you'll have Microsoft Narrator, I think is what it's called. If you're on Mac OS, or if you're on iOS, you'll have VoiceOver. I think even Linux has one, which is awesome. There's also some screen readers you can download. So I believe about a third of screen reader users use one called JAWS, which is a paid product. Ben Myers: And a screen reader is an assistive technology that takes your application site. And I say that very specifically, because our users are using devices that work across all applications, not just web pages. They're using one software to understand anything that they're using their device for. And a screen reader will take that application state, in the case of a website, take the words and semantics on your webpage and convert it into some sort of verbal experience. Ben Myers: It might pronounce your contents out loud, or some users will pipe that output to a peripheral called a refreshable braille display, which is like a row of braille dots that can raise and lower as the contents of the page change. So screen readers tend to be used mostly by blind and low vision users. They're also oftentimes used by dyslexic users who might need something to complement they're reading. So screen readers are a super, super commonly talked about assistive technology. Ben Myers: There's also various assistive technologies that are more peripheral based, such as some users with motor disabilities may find themselves using like a joystick or they might have software that allows their eye gaze, whatever they're looking at, to act as like a cursor. So there are devices like that, they're designed to be broadly interoperable with how you and I might use a mouse. Ben Myers: There's also assistive technologies software that impact how the page itself is viewed. So Windows, for instance, has a native high contrast mode, or it's sometimes called forced colors mode, because folks sometimes use high contrast mode to enforce low contrast themes. But basically what high contrast mode or forced colors mode, whatever you want to call it, what it does is it replaces all of the colors in every application, including webpages, with a fixed set of just like maybe eight colors based on the purpose of, is this a link or is this a button? And so you can't even guarantee that your CSS is necessarily being applied with the same colors that you're expecting. Ben Myers: There's also things like magnifiers. So allowing folks to see a subset of their page enlarge. There are just tons and tons of things. And I also want to encourage you to be very, very creative of what you consider an assistive technology. I personally consider password managers an assistive technology, because if we treat an assistive technology as anything that aids in your like physical and cognitive ability to use a page, a password manager that does is my password like memorization, so that I don't have to, I think that counts. Ben Myers: And so building experiences that don't break password managers, I think is key for accessibility as well. So just considering all sorts of different input and output devices, make no assumptions about how someone is going to navigate your page. Brendan: And if you use a password manager, you can kind of instantly tell who has good semantic markup- Ben Myers: Yes. Brendan: ... in use on their page, and who sort of has a mess of [divs 00:15:42] that the password manager's trying to guess what field your username goes in and your email goes in. And I would imagine it's a similar experience for people who are sort of very fluent with a screen reader, where you can kind of immediately tell, "Okay, this website is well set up and easy to use, easy to understand, or this just has not been designed with this kind of technology in mind." Ben Myers: Absolutely. Especially, because what you often find is, a very, very strong assumption that people make is that your users have access to a mouse, which isn't true, for instance, if they can't see a mouse cursor floating around in some two dimensional plane, just isn't the thing that makes sense. If they have a motor disability that requires that they use their keyboard to navigate a page, then they won't have access to a mouse. Also, if they're a mobile user, they won't have access to a mouse. Ben Myers: And so many interfaces are built around the assumption that you can hover over a thing or you can click a thing. And so keyboard navigation tends to be, I find, a really strong litmus test for whether an organization has thought about accessibility. Especially, because, for a lot of basic content, keyboard navigability is built into the semantics that we use. Unless you are going absolutely creative and rolling your own solutions, you should have basic keyboard accessibility for a lot of things like buttons. And so you can tell who really hasn't thought about that when keyboard navigability is broken. Brendan: Are there others sort of really common things that you either see people do well or common pitfalls that you see applications just like fail to think about or account for? Ben Myers: A really common pitfall, and this is one that's especially been surfaced by a web accessibility resource called Deque Systems is color contrast. That appears to be, from what we can tell through automatic detection, by far and away the most common failure for accessibility guidelines. And so that is you have two colors that look too similar together, especially in this era of minimalist designs, and that makes it really hard to discern where different interface controls are or even make out text against a background. And so color contrast tends to be a big failure, but it's also one that's fairly easily detectable and fairly simple to fix. Ben Myers: What we're finding like as an accessibility community with organizations like Deque Systems, and part of this is going to be bias because to automatically detect a failure, automatically detecting failure is going to be very limited into, simply enough, the kinds of accessibility defects that can be automatically detected. Ben Myers: But there have been various studies, an organization called WebAIM has done like yearly or every two years, a survey of the million most popular homepages for their most common accessibility defects. And time and time again, you find that it's things like color contrast or things like you're using your H1 through H6 elements, but you're using that because you want big texts and not because you're trying to structure some sort of outline of your page. These are things that we can detect fairly easily. And we also fix them fairly easily. And yet they're still super common issues. Ben Myers: It almost feels like we kind of have to get through these before we can necessarily talk through higher level stuff of like, oh, if you open a complex modal with a form inside, where does focus go? We could talk about that, but at the end of the day, we're still dealing with some of the like most easily fixable defects on mass. Brendan: Something that occurred to me as you were talking there was that, the complexity of web applications and websites also is not static. I mean, it's especially with React, eating the world over the past few years. I mean, this is true of our application at LogRocket, but I think true at a lot of other places as well, that the complexity of what web apps are doing and how tall and deep a single application has just skyrocketed. I'm sure that's something that you're sort of cognizant of and thinking of, but how is the accessibility community sort of thinking of it and trying to keep pace with this rapidly expanding complexity? Ben Myers: Absolutely. So I want to shout out, especially folks like Marcy Sutton who have done some enormous resource into specifically the subset of web accessibility that touches single page applications. Because single page applications break our understanding of how the web platform is supposed to work. The web was kind of built with this notion of you download a document, when you want to go elsewhere, you download a different document. And single page applications, everything is one big document that you're substituting elements in and you have all sorts of dynamic behavior. So when you change pages in kind of this, I guess, what we're now calling multi page application model, which is like every page is its own document, screen readers- Brendan: Also known as a normal website. Ben Myers: Right, yeah, the good old fashioned kind of website. When you navigate to a different page, a screen reader is told, "Hey, you're on a new page." And your focus, effectively think of that as where your keyboard cursor is, that starts at the beginning of the page. But in a single page application, when you navigate to a different page, your screen reader doesn't get that notification, and so you could be anywhere. If you click the link in the nav bar, for instance, and that link is still around, your focus might still be on that link and you would be told nothing, because as far as your screen reader knows nothing changed, even though the entirety of the page has changed. Ben Myers: We're also dealing with much more dynamic experiences on the pages itself, where you have to provide some sort of alert of, "Hey, something has changed. There's this error that's just appeared and you need to surface that, because this requires immediate attention." And so we have folks, like Marcy Sutton, who have done a lot of work in accessible single page application routing. Ben Myers: I think the accessibility community has really risen to the challenge of accessible single page applications, but I don't think we're totally there yet. And so I might recommend like think twice about using single page apps, just for the sake of using single page applications. If you don't have a strong reason that this should be a single page application, maybe back out and create a normal website or multi-page app or whatever you want to call it, because you're just going to create an experience that really the web platform was built for and therefore assistive technologies were built for. Brendan: Are there any examples of single page or more complex applications that you can think of that really have done a good job integrating with assistive technologies that people who are listening could take a look at and sort of take as a starting point? Ben Myers: Oh, I'm actually struggling to think of anything at the moment. Brendan: Maybe that's the answer to the question. Ben Myers: Part of it is I do accessibility work at companies, but I'm not an accessibility auditor, so I don't tend to audit other websites and stuff like that. And right now, what I'm more working on is, for my work at Microsoft is a bunch of static pages more or less. And so, yeah, I'm struggling to think of specifically accessible single page applications that would meet that. Brendan: Another thing, I guess, I'm curious about in that vein and more broadly than even single page applications, what are things that are new or interesting or exciting to you in the accessibility space right now? Whether that's topics people are becoming aware of, new tools, or libraries or frameworks that people are using, what should people sort of be aware of that's coming soon? Ben Myers: First of all, when we talk about accessibility, we do kind of have an industry standard set of guidelines that we follow called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, which is currently on version 2.1, version 2.2 is coming out later this year, and version 3.0 Should be coming out in the next few years. I expect, probably, I would say probably four to five years maybe, but I could be horribly wrong on that. Ben Myers: And every iterate of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines comes with it more user research and a wider range of disabilities that are specifically being taken into account. And one of the things that the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines is especially looking at these days is cognitive accessibility, which is, I think, long been an under talked about, under discussed form of accessibility, because it's a lot harder to test for. Ben Myers: A lot of cognitive accessibility tends to be around, is this experience simple and easy to understand? And how do you test for that? How do you grade that? That's a lot harder to than, does this image have alt text, for instance? So cognitive accessibility is something I'm really excited about. Ben Myers: I also just think that the web platform is getting better and better. As we move into this era where browsers tend to be more reliably evergreen, new features, new semantic, for instance, are getting incorporated at an increasingly rapid rate. We can rely on the specs more and more, and we can rely on browsers being up-to-date and we can rely on assistive technologies being up-to-date more and more, which, I think, is fantastic as we start to introduce more elements like the dialogue element. Ben Myers: So I think the web platform is getting more and more powerful. That's something I'm really excited about. If folks are really, really into this stuff, one thing I think is worth keeping your eye on is something called the accessibility object model, which if you are in web dev, we have this notion of the document object model, which is a programmatic way to access the elements on our page using JavaScript. And the accessibility object model is that, but specifically for a lot of accessibility functionality. And so that's going to make wiring up more complex interactive applications a lot easier. Ben Myers: Another thing that I've just found really, really exciting is that folks are becoming more aware of accessibility, not just through podcasts like this, but also just in general on Twitter. I'm finding it a lot more common that people are celebrating accessibility and discussing accessibility and incorporating it into general web development education. And I think that can only be good. I think that can only be helpful as more and more people are talking about this and celebrating it. I'm just really excited for increased awareness around accessibility. Brendan: And you've talked about the accessibility community a few times in this chat. I'm curious, is that something that's mostly self-organizing, people who are sort of coming to it through a shared interest or commitment to it? Is that something that's largely driven by sort of more standards creating bodies? What does that community as a whole look like? Ben Myers: That's a great question. I would say, in my experience, it's fairly self-organizing, and there tend to be a few points that they anchor around like web standards, for instance. Because following web standards means interoperability with all sorts of devices and software, including assistive technologies. But, yeah, it tends to be fairly self-organizing. If you're looking for the community, I might recommend you check out the hashtag A11Y, so that's A-1-1-Y on Twitter. If you've ever seen that acronym, it's what we call a numeronym. It's an acronym that's formed based on how many letters are omitted. So there's 11 letters between the A and Y in accessibility, and so that's where A11Y comes from. And it just happens to look like the word ally, which is a very lovely coincidence, I think, has helped it out a lot. Ben Myers: So look at hashtag A11Y on Twitter, that's where you're going to find it. It has a lot of intersection with just in general, disabled activists. Again, going back to the notion of disability justice. There's long been a notion in disabled circles of nothing about us without us, which is this notion that if you're building for disabled users, you have to include disabled users. If you don't have disabled user's input, you're ultimately not going to create a product that is as likely to help them out. Ben Myers: And in fact, you're in fact, liable to create more problems in some ways. And so what I really love is that web accessibility circles have a lot of overlap with disabled Twitter, which I think is great. It's hugely, hugely empowering to get insight from actually disabled users about how they experience the world and how they experience the web. And so those are some things I just really love about accessibility communities. Brendan: And I guess to that point about justice and inclusiveness, are there sort of ways that you've seen people do a good job of including voices and including voices from the disabled community in their sort of efforts to adopt or move forward web accessibility within a company or a project, what have you? Ben Myers: Sometimes it's too little too late, right? I think that some people who are listening are probably thinking about lawsuits but there's a step that you can do before lawsuits, which is this concept of structured negotiation, which is really pioneered by Lainey Feingold and her team. It's this notion of like, before you ever see court, have consultation with disabled users and see if you can resolve accessibility defects well before things ever appear in court. Ben Myers: But in general, user testing is a strong strategy. It's sometimes difficult to do user testing with disabled users, because disability can be a protected class, and so sometimes that could be difficult to navigate. But when you can land it, like bringing in disabled users to test your product or straight up hiring disabled people. Hire disabled users and prioritize their input on these things. I think can be very valuable ways to incorporate disabled voices into the process. Ben Myers: It's important to include them very early on, before you've built your whole app, because accessibility is not something you can bolt on. Accessibility is not something that, oh, we can surface as a bug and maybe fix everything later. You're going to have a much more robustly accessible experience if you are considering it through the start, from the beginning. Brendan: Because to your earlier point, it starts from like the very document model and the approach to markup. And if that's broken from the beginning, you're rewriting the application. Ben Myers: I would say it starts earlier. Yeah, it starts in the design process, and it starts in the business side, as your product owners are discussing, "Hey, what features do we need?" And as your designers are fleshing it out, that's the point where you should really be looking at this and going, "Okay, but what does this mean for our disabled users?" Ben Myers: Because I think many web developers can relate to this notion of, "Oh, I'm just implementing the specs I was given. I'm implementing the Figma designs or whatever. To create a very equitable experience for all, you have start where the experience starts, which is even coming up with the notion of what experience should we have in the first place. Brendan: That's such a good point. And I guess there's an element where accessibility can't just be a thing that we as devs focus on, it has to be kind of a whole organizational commitment. Ben Myers: Yeah. And so I work at Microsoft, I'm not representing Microsoft right now, but one of the things that I've just really appreciated my time here is that accessibility is a top down message. This is not something where developers are having to like fight upstream to do. It really comes from the top. It comes from Satya, really, our CEO. Just everyone in the organization knows that accessibility is a priority. And when you can get that kind of culture, it becomes hugely, hugely cohesive and capable of solving accessibility challenges that you maybe wouldn't have thought were solvable. And so a top down message, I think, can be hugely powerful. Kate: I was going to say something that you talked about on the FSJam podcast was, accessibility is for everyone, yes, but it can quickly become almost developer preferences that way. And so it is important to keep the disabled users at the core, because, otherwise, it can just turn into preferences pretty quickly. Ben Myers: I think dark mode is a prime example of this, where I think having a mode like dark mode is hugely helpful for accessibility. But there was definitely a period of time where dark mode was seen as like the developer thing, and a place for developers to express their preference. And really we should be centering who are folks that are going to be impacted this. Ben Myers: I've spoken with quite a few people who, when they're reading something in dark mode, they get like halos around the white text. And that makes everything seem very blurry and hard to follow, especially for long lines of texts. So we can't just go for the sleek design that looks cool and impressive, dark mode has to actually be usable. And so, absolutely, center disabled voices, center disabled people in that process, and figure out like what works for them, and your usability will follow from that. Kate: Totally. We're getting close to time, but I did want to talk about, so you stream on Twitch, you have a YouTube channel, and you're involved in Lunch Dev Discord. Tell us about your brand and your channels and your brand building. Ben Myers: Absolutely. So the kind of big project that I'm working on right now is the streams. I host a weekly Twitch show called Some Antics, which you can find at twitch.tv/SomeAnticsDev. I recognize, as I'm saying these things out loud, I should probably space out the words. So it is Some Antics because I am a pun driven developer. It does make it just absolutely murder for the podcast medium. Ben Myers: But it's a weekly show where I bring on guests from around the web development and web design industries to teach me something about building great user experiences for the web in a hands on way with a focus on accessibility and core web technologies. So I'm currently streaming Tuesdays at 2:00 PM Central. And I've really, really enjoyed that, because I found that a lot of people in web dev spaces really care about this stuff. They get excited about usability and design and access, but just often don't know where to start. And so I really love fostering communities where people can come and just like learn a tidbit or two. Ben Myers: You might learn about an HTML element you didn't know existed. The other day, I had the opportunity to teach a stream about the output element, which is just one of those things that you just likely haven't heard of. And so I find that Twitch tends to be a very thriving community. It tends to be a place where people can kind of congregate to and group around some streamers and just hang out for a while, have fun, answer each other's questions. It's interactive in a way that I just haven't seen before with a lot of mediums. Ben Myers: So it's something that I'm super excited to see accessibility advocacy brought to that space. I'm starting to see other streamers that also incorporate accessibility into their Twitch streams. I would recommend Salma Alam-Naylor, who's on Twitch as White Panther. I would also recommend Geometric Jim, Jim Drury, is his name. These are some streamers I've been seeing lately who really incorporate accessibility as part of their thriving Twitch community. I'm really, really excited about that. Ben Myers: I also blog about accessibility occasionally at benmeyers.dev. I tend to do that less and less these days, because I think one of the things that draws me to streaming is I love being able to show live examples and demos and stuff like that. I've just personally found that challenging with the blog. And, yeah, I also really enjoy participating in communities of practice for web developers. So I'm a moderator in the Lunch Dev Discord, which you can get to with discord.gg/lunchdev. I'm also a moderator in the Frontend Horse Discord, which you can get to with frontend.horse/chat. Ben Myers: And these are two really inclusive, creative communities of practice for web developers, frontend developers, anyone who does any sort of design as well. Just, I really love this kind of modern era of us finding communities of people who are excited about things, then just learning from them, and being able to reach out to them in such an interactive, real-time way. And I've personally found that participating in these ways has made my own ability to advocate for accessibility and core web technologies a lot stronger. So those are some of the things I've been really enjoying as of late. Kate: Awesome. And we'll include all those links in our show notes, for sure. Ben, it has been great having you on and we will see you around. Ben Myers: It's been lovely being on. Thank you so much for having me. Kate: Thanks for listening to PodRocket. You can find us @PodRocketpod on Twitter. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcast. Thanks.