Kate: All right. Welcome to PodRocket. I'm Kate, the producer of PodRocket. With me today is Brendan, one of our engineers at PodRocket. Hi, Brendan. How's it going? Brendan: Hey, Kate. It's going great. How are you? Kate: It's going great. I just keep recruiting some of our engineering team to go on a podcast and it's been awesome. And also with us is Hannah Neil. Hi Hannah, how's it going? Hannah Neil: Hey, Kate. Great, I'm glad we have Brendan here, because I love talking to engineers. Kate: I'm so excited. Hannah is the community manager at NGINX. And yeah, Hannah, do you want to get started and just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're working on? Hannah Neil: Sure. Yeah, so I joined NGINX about three months ago, before that I was at Postman. I've been doing technical community management for the last few years. I actually have a marketing background prior to that, don't hold that against me. And I do have a lot of love and respect for marketing. And through that, through events, I got to know a lot of developers that I was working with and found that I really liked sitting next to them at lunch and having more technical conversations to understand the products. And that led me towards community management and so at NGINX, I focus a lot on open source and we're revitalizing our community after a bit of a break from nurturing it. And I've a wonderful team and really loving what we're doing. Kate: Awesome. No shame in marketing here, yeah. Hannah Neil: Not at all. Absolutely not. I respect it a lot, but it doesn't get all the credit it deserves, in my opinion. Brendan: So that maybe seems like a great place to dive in and start the conversation. What does it mean to be an open source community manager? And maybe, how do you think that role is different from what we would think of as a more traditional community management role, maybe for a consumer brand? Hannah Neil: Sure, absolutely. Well, the most obvious difference is open source community manager really focuses on contributions, whether that's to code or documentation, it's really focused on that contributor management as well as the rest of ecosystem around community. Whereas for when we're on more proprietary software, there are other community activities that are also equally as important. But you'd focus more on if there's tutorials that folks are making or conference talks, if there's a forum or social media, that's really active. So it's less directly about how folks are contributing to code and more about the general community vibe. Brendan: And you said that you were starting to revitalize the open source community around NGINX. I'm curious if that's something that's part of a broader strategy or what's the general reason why you're starting that effort now? Hannah Neil: Yeah, absolutely. NGINX hasn't done a ton of nurturing in its community for the last few years, that's something we're pretty open about. And recently a community team has been put together within 2021, that's really focused on all things open. And so we have myself as community manager, we have an awesome evangelist who has years of experience. We have a developer advocate and our community team manager. And so we're now starting to take a look at how do we revitalize the healthy community that we haven't touched in a while? How do we nurture an environment where people want to participate in our community and where people feel ownership in our community? And so we're not starting from scratch, NGINX has some wonderful contributors. There are folks that answer questions on third party platforms all the time. But it's time for us to actually step in and support those efforts and bring it back to the thriving community that we hope it'll be. Brendan: I know this is probably something you're talking about a lot internally, but do you have a vision of what a healthy community looks like? And maybe what are some of the metrics that you would use to gauge how the community is growing over time? Hannah Neil: Ooh, metrics, that's my favorite and least favorite topic, least favorite, really. So far we don't have any that are set directly on X number of contributors at the end of the year or something like that. Personally, for metrics I'm about to properly launch a slack for the NGINX community. And so we'll be measuring things on active participation for non-mandatory channels, things that folks find on their own, for example. And I forgot the beginning of your question already. I'm sorry. Brendan: No, I think that's a reasonable answer. And I think it sounds like some element of feeling out the community and seeing who's there and what their interests are and how generally people want to contribute to the product. Hannah Neil: Exactly. Brendan: And then structuring that program more. Hannah Neil: Absolutely. Yeah, I like to view myself more as a community steward than community manager, ultimately community is about what they want to make it. The NGINX community, while I view myself as part of it, I view other NGINXers as part of it, it is not just our community to hold in our vision. We can help nurture what people want and how they participate and have ownership in it. Otherwise, it's a managed or directed network as opposed to an actual genuine community. Brendan: I know you've only been there a short time so far, but are there any particular interactions or events you've had with the community that have really stuck out or been exciting to you? Hannah Neil: Yeah. So when I first joined, one of the first things I started looking at were Stack Overflow and Reddit, and the questions that were coming in about NGINX. There's an NGINX sub Reddit that is actually really active. And I was amazed to see how many people, even without moderation, just regularly returned and answered questions. I saw one interaction on there recently, that someone commenting wasn't on their best behavior. And it was really lovely to see how people stepped in to say, "no, actually this is the right place to questions. This is the right place to learn. This is why we're here." And so I've just been really impressed with the way that people are answering each other's questions already and starting to nurture that community on third party platforms. It's something entirely voluntary, it's something that we haven't been incentivizing or anything. And so seeing that it's already out there without us having to put major effort into that, feels really special and something I feel lucky to be walking into. Brendan: Yeah. That's really great. You've mentioned slack and you've mentioned Reddit, and I'm curious if there are any other particularly strong channels for NGINX, where the community already exist, that you've discovered. Hannah Neil: Yeah. Stack Overflow's a big one. I created an RSS feed within our own internal NGINX slack and 20 questions a day or so tagged comes in about NGINX. Not all of them are actually about NGINX proper. They just mention, "Oh, here's my NGINX config as part of what we're trying to figure out here." But that would be, honestly I think more popular than Reddit, Reddit just has people answering each other's questions more. And slack's going to be relaunched soon, so I have no idea what that's going to look like and how that's going to be active, but yeah, that's going to be a new one. Brendan: Cool. We'll come back to communities in a bit. But I thought maybe we could take a step back and talk a little bit about your background and how you came to the roles that you're in now. I know you mentioned you started with a marketing background. Could you maybe tell a story of your career? Where did you start? How did you come to community management? And maybe what's excited you or kept you coming back for more of those roles? Hannah Neil: Yeah, absolutely. Oddly enough, I would say that my story into community management started with model United Nations in college. Not what you'd initially to connect with developer relations, but a lot of the folks I was friends with and I was traveling with, were actually computer science majors. They just happened to get into Model UN in high school or liked the international aspect of it. But I focused a lot on community building there, as well as hosting events, being our team captain, where I went to college. And that was one of my first chances to be in community with developers, even if that wasn't what we were focused on. And I studied political science and wanted a job in that and stumbled into marketing. I'm from the Bay Area and so tech is the obvious path in that way. And wasn't entirely fulfilled in it until I started focusing on developer tools. Hannah Neil: I came from Kong where I joined as marketing coordinator. And my second week was at Kube Kong in Seattle. And I didn't know what the heck I was talking about. People would come up and try to poke holes in whatever spiel I was giving and my coworker and now dear friend, Harry, spent the entire week just sitting with me using stickers as a diagram to try to explain what was going on, try to explain what API calls are. I mean, heck I barely knew what an API was when I started. And that's something that really stuck with me, that someone actually took the time beyond here's the 32nd spiel to memorize, someone actually taking the time to sit with me and explain what this technology was, to explain it in words that I understood and that made me feel part of it. Hannah Neil: And so I sat at one point, sitting at lunch table and was able to regurgitate what I'd understood about Kong using the salt and pepper shakers on the table. And I was able to explain that to other folks in the marketing team who might have understood things in their own way. But I felt really proud of understanding, even if it wasn't a tool I was able to use. And I felt a strong connection between the other folks who do use Kong, from the developers on the team, to folks I was meeting at trade shows and even just having that understanding and knowing that if I wanted to learn more there were folks who were out there who cared, who were willing to take the time with me. I wasn't just stuck with internet tutorials there was someone I could actually ask questions to, made me feel part of the community. Hannah Neil: And so when I had a chance to do developer marketing at Kong, that's what I really fell in love with. And I wound up over at Postman as the technical community manager. Met some folks at a conference, they overheard me talking about Kong and when that role opened up, I jumped at it. And I didn't know that was a career opportunity. I didn't know that community management for developer relations was even a thing. And I don't think I would've gotten to this point if it wasn't for my friend sitting there with stickers over and over and over, explaining what the product is. Brendan: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to see how you've built a niche in these really API driven, deeply technical product communities- Hannah Neil: Yep. Brendan: But don't come from a technical background yourself. I'm curious, what have been some of the ways that you've built connections with people in those communities over time? And maybe for other people who aren't coming from technical backgrounds, but are interested in tech, what has that experience been like? Hannah Neil: Yeah. Very good question. I really like catching people at the beginning of their education journey. If they're learning a new tool, if they're learning a new language, finding someone else, who's also a beginner out there. If you show that interest and walk through the steps with each other, I think that can build deep connections and provide valuable insights and relationships that we wouldn't have necessarily had before. I'm sorry, I totally forgot the question. Could you repeat yourself, Brendan? Brendan: No, that's fine. I was curious to hear if you had any thoughts or experiences to share for people who were interested in tech, but coming from non-technical backgrounds? And what that experience has been like for you going into very, very technical communities? Hannah Neil: Got it. Okay. Yeah, the first I would say, is that I think that divide between non-technical and technical is over-hyped. I think, that especially if you're coming from a background that isn't engineering, that this idea of being technical or not technical enough is something that we might impose on ourselves a little too much. I'm learning bits and pieces, I'm trying really hard. I still think of myself as not technical, even though I technically had technical in my title in my last role. And so I think one of the big things that folks can do to find their community, to get closer to engineers, to learn more about product, to learn more about technology is to get over that mindset of, "I'm not technical. So therefore this isn't for me." No matter where someone is on the spectrum of their technical journey, there's always going to be a tool or a language or something that they don't understand as well. And so there is, I know a spectrum of where we're at and don't sell yourself short on it, if you're really interested in learning. Kate: I have a question. Sorry to totally derail, but this might be just what I've seen, but I was curious, Postman has a college program. I'm curious, what's the strategy around that? I just I've seen it a lot and I'm just curious, it's just something I wouldn't necessarily think of as a brand to do, but I'm curious of the strategy there. Hannah Neil: Yeah. The Postman Student Expert Program is actually pretty cool. So they focus on education, community building with university and high school students. Currently, I think it's modeled a little bit after the GitHub Campus Program, where you have campus leaders. It's been a little while and it evolved since I was actually involved with it. But I think that the mindset on that, is that if you reach people, again early in their learning careers, so if it's folks that are computer science majors, or just really interested and want to go into tech, the earlier you reach someone with a tool and make that part of their core foundational knowledge, I think the more likely they are to use it going forward in the future. Hannah Neil: And so if these students are using Postman, and I think it's a really valuable, useful tool for many folks in a lot of different personas here. And so if you reach them really early, then they'll still be using Postman and have those skills and the ability to use it in their future jobs or to teach other people about it. And so don't quote me entirely on this, which I'm saying on a podcast, for something like 37 million developers in the world or something, but there are millions more students and so that is a really ripe opportunity to get a community and customer base early. Kate: Totally. That makes so much sense now. Yeah. I actually really get that a lot. Yeah. Thank you. Hannah Neil: Plus students are so enthusiastic and come up with really interesting use cases and really an interesting way to phrase things. And so I believe that having students is part of community really enriches the experience overall for all of us, even if we're out of university ourselves. Brendan: Hearing you talk about student programs and talking about Kube Kong and all of these very central, in person developer experiences, obviously has me thinking about how not in person the last couple of years have been. Hannah Neil: Yeah. Brendan: And how much of a change that's been for a lot of developers, I'm sure for a lot of communities around developers. Everyone can check off the COVID square on the bingo card. Now that I've brought it up. But I'm curious, what your perspective is on how the last few years have changed community management and technical communities? And whether you think those changes are long lasting or whether that's something we'll snap back over the next few years? Hannah Neil: Sure. Yeah, I'll start off by saying I miss in person events enough that you could probably convince me to go to Reinvent again. And that's something that I had literal nightmares about the last time I was there. That being said, I think that accessibility is a huge part of virtual events now and something that I'd really like to keep. So if folks are giving conference talks, for example, there's a chance to have captions for folks who are hard of hearing, or you can have it translated. Folks can come to meetups or conferences virtually that they might not have been able to attend on different sides of the world. And so especially if you have someone who can't get a visa to travel, for example, to have something virtual really does lend itself to accessibility. Something I do really appreciate as well about everything being virtual, is that it feels like it's legitimized to the friendships and relationships that might have been minimized, because they're internet friendships. Kate and Brendan, do either of you have folks you'd consider internet friends, someone off of Twitter that you've become friends with? Brendan: Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Hannah Neil: Those relationships have become even more and more valuable, especially as we've seen our in-person relationships switch to more online. And forcing our hand for all of us to be equal in that way, I think allows those friendships that might not have been perceived as important or as real to come to light. That was something I struggled with, I remember I had a friend growing up who had a lot of gaming friends, and I really didn't understand that. But now some of my closest friends are scattered around the world and it's because of Zoom and WhatsApp and Twitter that we have these connections. Brendan: And do you feel like- Hannah Neil: A hybrid approach would be great. Brendan: Yeah. Do you feel like that shift you identified is something that's going to stay with us? Or do you think it will fade back as we go towards whatever the future of normal looks like? Hannah Neil: Yeah, I hope it does, I hope as in a lot of ways, I hope that mindset of virtual is accessible and virtual is important is still there. I don't think that virtual can replace in person connections in every state, in every way. But knowing that we can actually adapt our activities to do it virtually, I think we'll keep those options open in a way that we didn't have to consider pre-pandemic. I'm also not sure there's going to be a classic afterwards, I don't know, maybe that's pessimism two years in. But I don't know if it's going to go back to the way that we saw it before and so I don't know that's still a big question mark. Brendan: Yeah, I think- Hannah Neil: What do you think? Brendan: Well, especially for a lot of my friends who are developers, there's no way you're getting them back into an office- Hannah Neil: Oh God, no. Brendan: Ever again. So I think at least in some ways, certainly the software industry has shifted probably permanently. Hannah Neil: Absolutely. Brendan: And I think there'll be a lot of other things that don't go back to the way they were, even if they go back to some equilibrium. Hannah Neil: Totally agreed. Yeah. Remote work is a huge one. I'm born and raised in the Bay Area, I lived there my entire life until four months ago where I packed up and moved myself to Portland, Maine, which I never thought I would do or have the opportunity and ability to. And I miss the silliness of being in an office, I miss walking up to someone and just totally derailing their day and interrupting them. But beyond that, yeah, I hope it's here to stay. Brendan: I want to jump on something that you briefly mentioned, which was the way that virtual events have made parts of tech more accessible to people. And generally, I think some something that a lot of us tech are thinking about are how to make it a more inclusive space and a more welcoming space. I'm curious if you have thoughts about building inclusive communities in tech and maybe just even start with a general definition of what makes a community inclusive. Hannah Neil: Ooh, okay. I don't know if I'm the official source to provide actual definition, but this is one of my favorite topics and something I care about arguably above all else. To me, inclusive has a lot to do with psychological safety. So being able to be yourself, to ask questions, to make mistakes, without fear of repercussion or without fear of someone thinking less of you. There's also diversity regarding underrepresented minorities, so whether that is from race or gender or sexual orientation for ability. So folks with various mental illnesses or chronic illnesses or folks that are blind or hard of hearing, anyone that is traditionally left out of the mainstream conversation and mainstream available options. Hannah Neil: And we have the opportunity to build inclusive communities. We have the opportunity to focus on that conversation that's going on. And it's not easy, but it's not as hard as people think it is. It's not as hard to go the extra couple of steps and it will be dismantling whole ideas. Something that's been really pervasive or long lasting in culture. But when it comes to actually taking the steps, there are steps that folks can take sooner rather than leader that aren't just a giant hurdle of capital D diversity or capital I inclusion. Brendan: What do you think that maybe some of those things that any of us in tech can do to make more inclusive spaces and more inclusive communities are? Hannah Neil: Yeah. For what I'd say, follow other people with different perspectives. So if you're on Twitter, Tech Twitter can be quite the echo chamber. So intentionally go out and follow some folks. There's a wonderful hashtag blacktechTwitter, I'm not part of that community, so it's not a conversation I participate in. But you can see some folks that, oh gosh, okay, diversity is such a sensitive topic, I always hope that I'm approaching this correctly. But there are ways to actually find and listen to the voices of folks that are out there and really do deserve to be listened to. Hannah Neil: Another one would be considering code of conduct. So if you are a community manager or if you participate in community, find out what the code of conduct is and have one, if you don't. So much about code of conduct is also about moderation and so understanding what is and isn't acceptable in a community and being aligned with that is absolutely crucial. And then beyond that too, just taking the steps to think, can everyone use this? Should everyone use it? There's a difference between being equal and being equitable. So is this something that everyone can actually access and use in the way that they need? Or is it just a blanket like, "Well, it's out there, so it's totally fine. It's accessible and inclusive." There's a pretty big difference there. Does that make sense? Brendan: Yeah. No, I think that's a really nice way of putting it. One of I guess, the other obvious questions is, from where you sit as a community manager, obviously you're in a position to drive and affect a lot of change in the community. What are things that you feel like you've done or have worked for you in the past, to create inclusive communities around the products that you're a part of? Hannah Neil: Sure, absolutely. I had really wonderful support from Postman to do projects that I found interesting. And I got to work with my team members to create a whole project on APIs for LGBTQ rights. So there was one that it created a slack bot with Refuge Restrooms is a project that folks can show and contribute what restrooms are friendly for queer and trans folk. And so there's a slack bot where you put in the address where you're at, and it sends you a list of accessible bathrooms nearby, for example. As well as looking at open states data, to see legislation about LGBTQ issues. And I was really encouraged to create that project, to write the blog post about it, to give a talk about it and to show ways that technology can be used to be inclusive. Hannah Neil: Another thing that I really focused on when I launched what's called the Postman Supernovas Program, that's their community ambassadors, was not just looking for who are the most popular people on Twitter. It's a lot more about passion and long term investment in someone. And so really reaching out and saying, "Okay, we don't have a ton of community representation from Latin America yet. Who speaks Spanish and really wants to participate in this and maybe give talks in Spanish?" And so that was a great way for folks around the world to get to know each other too, and exchange ideas and recommend each other. I couldn't be everywhere, a community manager can't be everywhere nor do we want to be, community has to steward itself as well. We got to empower our community. And so just identifying some key players and some areas that aren't currently being resourced and addressed and putting our inner towards that was really successful. Hannah Neil: At NGINX we are going to be working on a really inclusive code of conduct. Been following a lot about what Aeva Black has been talking about with the Linux foundation and the CNCF code of conduct, they have some really brilliant thoughts on that. And in terms of inclusiveness at NGINX, I'm really grateful that my team focuses strongly on psychological safety between the handful of us, because it's a lot easier to start from a place of security and work outward that way. And so if we're already fostering those relationships for us for our day to day, it's lot easier to bring that out into the world as well. And so we haven't finalized our code of conduct yet, that's an ongoing conversation as is about how we want to moderate it. But we're able to focus on inclusion and diversity from the start, now that we're actually revitalizing the community, as opposed to trying to shoehorn it in or get people to change their mind and change their practices. We get to build it as part of the foundation and I think that's pretty special. Brendan: Something that I feel as I'm hearing more about communities and more about products and organizations building communities, is I wonder if there's a point at which you risk just reaching total saturation, right? Or burning people out in the sheer variety of communities that they have access to. Is there enough room for everyone to build communities and maybe who do you think should or shouldn't be focused on community as part of their strategy? Hannah Neil: Ooh, interesting. That's a really good question. Yeah, I think there's room for everyone. I think that there can be cross participation within communities. You can belong to multiple communities. I'm the community manager for NGINX, but I still consider myself part of the Postman community, even though I don't work there anymore. It's not an all or nothing thing, it's not a binary you have to be with one and you can't be with another community. I think that as a society, community is something that we don't put enough value into anyway. We're really individualized and especially right now in COVID where we don't have the options to gather, and we are really separated from folks. And so I think on a human to human level, community's important for absolutely everyone, regardless of whether that's a tech community or a local interest group or your family even. Hannah Neil: When it comes to companies, I would say, don't focus on community if you're not ready for it to be an actual community. If you want a managed network, if you want another marketing channel, that's not actually community in my opinion. And so if you're ready to put the resources into it and you want to connect with people who use your product or in your general ecosystem, say, go for it. Either that, or connect with existing communities as well, partner with people, communities can grow and interact with each other. But whatever it comes down, do it with genuine interest and passion or else everyone will be able to smell through, that won't pass the smell test. Kate: Yeah. We just had Rosie Sherry on the podcast, Rosieland is her Twitter, I believe. And yeah, she said, "Don't build a community." I don't want to misquote her, but it was something like, "Be ready to do it for five years if you're going to build it." Which is so crazy to think about. And as brand, I mean, what plan you have for five years out? But I think that's a really good piece of advice, if you're going to do it, make sure you're in it for the long haul. Hannah Neil: Absolutely. Yeah. Community isn't something that you just spin up overnight. It's not enough just to make a meet up group and say, "Okay, someone take it over." It's not enough just to have an active Twitter voice. If it actually is a community and it is involved with people's lives and emotions, and more than just a network, it is the long game. And it's hard to think of that, especially if you're coming from a startup where you have to have immediate returns or hyper growth or any really intense pressure and expect to see some immediate results, that's just not how community works. I like to think of community like having a lot of roots, you can spread outwards and sideways and you can gather a lot of people that way, but when it comes down to it, it's the roots and how deep the community can go together. That makes it a lasting community. Otherwise, again, I think it's more of just a network and networks have their value too. But if you want to consider an actual community, that's something you have to put effort and emotion and money and time into. Kate: Totally. No, I completely agree. Hannah Neil: Yeah. I was listening to Rosie's podcast earlier this morning. I turned it off part way, because I don't want to just repeat the same thing she says, because they're in my head. So yeah, like 20 minutes in. But that was a good podcast, she knows what she's talking about. Brendan: So maybe to zoom all the way out and try to close with something fun and big picture here, what do you think is the future of open source communities? Hannah Neil: Yeah. For the future of open source communities in particular, I think that there will be a mindset shift from code contributions, being the be all end all towards other community activities. I think that that comes with decoupling this notion of technicality and value. The more technical you are, the more code you write, the more valuable you are in a community. And so I think that as we start to understand how important soft skills are, how important other aspects of community are, the tutorials, the answering each other's questions, the supporting documentation, all of that is so, so, so critical and I think undervalued. Hannah Neil: And so in the future of open source community, I deeply hope that those will be more valued or there will be more prominence and focus on it and that there are areas for inclusion. Ooh, how do I phrase that? Trying to make some sort of point about in valuing the efforts of others beyond just code contributions, it also leaves room for a more inclusive community as a whole. We all have different things to bring to the table and respecting that I think, or hope is the future of open source. Brendan: Yeah. That's such a nice answer and it brings us back to where we started. We've come full circle in this half hour. Hannah Neil: Oohwee. Yeah, that was a really juicy question, I appreciate that. Working backwards in my brain I was like, "Well, what are we trying to do at NGINX?" And all right, we're going to be the future, God dammit. Kate: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Hannah, for being on. Is there anything that you would like to point our listeners to, any plugs, anything that you would like people to go check out? Hannah Neil: Great. Okay. I really hope that this is live in time, because this is what I care about a lot, but we are relaunching our NGINX community slack. And so if you are interested in NGINX at all, we'll have a link on nginx.org. That's our developer focus site that you can join us on there. And if that banner is not up on the website when you check it, then hopefully it will be shortly after that. So come on back and ping me directly if you want to say hi. Kate: Perfect. Awesome. Yeah, we'll include that link in our show notes. Hannah Neil: Yeah. Got it. I've been trying to launch this slack for several weeks now and it's just gotten delayed and delayed and delayed. Kate: Well, now you committed to it. Hannah Neil: I know. I really did. Kate: Wanted to get something done? Commit on air. Hannah Neil: Yes. Kate: Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Hannah. It's been a pleasure and we'll see you around. Hannah Neil: Okay. Thanks so much. Brian: Thanks for listening to PodRocket. Find us at PodRocket pod on Twitter, or you could always email me even though that's not a popular option. It's brian@logrocket.