Brian: And we're rolling. Brian: Welcome to PodRocket. I'm Brian. That's Mike. Welcome. Mike: Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here. Brian: I'm glad to have you here. We should probably intro you properly. Please, tell us about yourself. Mike: Absolutely. So I'm Mike. I am also a co-host of a web development podcast called HTML All The Things, and I've been a web developer for, I think about... It's approaching eight years, but I think it's seven and a half. Mike: I run my own web agency with my business partner and also podcast co-host, Matt. We do small business websites. We also do larger contracts with some California based companies for doing just actual development, web app development, mobile development, and stuff like that. So we're in a lot of different areas with our development career, and after about, I don't know, five years of it, we decided to kind of shift into podcasting as well. So I have the experience of both just being a regular web developer and a little bit of the content creation side as well. Brian: I don't know if we did this on purpose. I don't know if you've thought about this on purpose, the sort of... Well, I'm trying to have a nice way to say it, the kind of incestuous idea of podcast hosts meeting with other podcast hosts within web development. Is that... I said it was a nice way, and then I described it as... You know what I'm saying though? But people seem to like it. Do you feel like that happened naturally? Have you noticed it, I guess is a good question? Mike: So yeah. For sure, I've noticed it. I've talked to Alex Booker from the Scrimba podcast. I've talked to you guys now and there's some other ones I've talked to. I think the Drunken UX podcast is another one that I've talked to. So we kind of are all forming a little bit of a podcast, web development podcast circle, which I'm kind of really enjoying because not only are we all developers or in the web development space in some way, shape or form, but now we're have this other niche that we can talk about and is really not that often that that becomes a thing. Brian: Yeah. Mike: When you can have people to kind of bro down with or just really have that back and forth about something that you actually know. If I talk to my family about this, they have no idea what's going on. Brian: Yeah. That's what... I didn't just ask for no reason. I notice because there's... I'm seeing it more and more and I'm seeing that there's discords for each podcast and then I'm starting to see a little bit more, I think, anyway, of a community within web dev podcast hosts or hosting or something like that. And even if it's not, I don't really know exactly... Something is emergent and I just wanted to see what you think if at all. Mike: I think it's getting there, honestly. I don't think there's that many of us to be a full on community, but I think it's starting to get there. For me, I've had a lot of people reach out to me on Twitter and through our discord asking how do I start my own podcast and advice for that, which is a really good sign of what you're saying, that there could be a community starting to form around the space and I'm all for it. Mike: I don't care if there's more of us out there. I think that, that's only a positive. Competition is great. There's plenty of spaces to fill this airless field is expanding at exponential rates. I don't know if you've noticed that as well, especially over COVID. So there's only more content needed and more people talking about that content rather than worrying about competition in the space as well. Mike: So it's really an interesting thought that you're saying that there's a community forming around it. I haven't really thought of that before, but I think you're right in the sense that it's starting to form. We're in the early stages of it so maybe we can kind of push it forward a little bit. Brian: Okay. So you started your podcast a long time ago, right? You said five years? Mike: It's been three... It has been over three years, three years and four months or something. Brian: Okay. So three years plus, why? What was it that... Back then, what was it that you were trying to accomplish? How did you sort of think about what it is you were... Why sit down and do it? Mike: Yeah, so again, like I was saying, Matt and I, my co-host and my business partner, we had a small web agency business and it was going pretty well at that time. We had a really good stable contract, plus we had a lot of other kind of maintenance programs on the side, maintenance contracts on the side. So we had consistency for the first time in our career, essentially, where we could be like, "Okay, what's next?" Mike: So we had a meeting. We sat down and Matt had already been a co-host on a different podcast about gaming for around seven years at the time. So he had a really good experience in co-hosting. He had good experience in the whole audio engineering side of things as well. He was helping out with that. So he had that base and we were like, "Well, where do we fit?" Do we make a YouTube channel? Do we go straight blogging? Mike: We wanted to do something that differentiated ourselves from the competition to get better clients, to communicate with the community. That was another really, really big part for us because Matt and I, although we worked together, we don't do the same things all the time. So we never had that opportunity to shop talk a lot. So forming that, a community around the basis of trying to find people with similar mindsets was really important. We're always remote and we intend to be remote forever. So I find it really satisfying to be able to talk shop to people that are doing the same thing, just like we're doing right now. Mike: So that's kind of where the idea came out. So it was a cross section of... We were in a good point to do something new. We had a experience with the podcasting side and there wasn't a lot of competition in the space at the time, even though I... Even now, I don't think there's that much competition in this space. And we had a desire to form a community. Brian: I think it's kind of... I'm interested because I've noticed just in this conversation, you've mentioned competition a few times or at least a couple times, and I don't really hear that that often, even though, it's pretty natural. Brian: When I ask these questions, for example, when someone comes on and they're an instructor, which you are, I say... I ask that almost that exact question. I say, "Hey, do you feel like there's room for everybody? Do you feel like there's... Is there at some point where there's just enough instructors for everyone?" And the response that I got back and really liked was, there probably is. Brian: Each instructor or each teacher is going to have their own kind of spin on things or take on things. You should find the one that's best for you. I personally think that, yeah. It's natural to think about the competition when it's kind of your business. It's your livelihood. Do you ever think about that? Obviously, you do. How do you think about it? Mike: Absolutely. I think about competition all the time in every regard of what I do, because... And it's not a negative thought of competition. It's more of a positive spin on it that... Hey, what can I learn from people that have already done it, that have already trailblazed, and where do I fit? Just like you said, is there enough instructors out there? Will there ever be a point where there's going to be too many or something like that, where the competition get too tight? Mike: You're right. Of course, there's going to be a point that it's going to happen, but it's probably not now and it might not be in the next couple years. So that's where my thought goes with any product that you build, I feel like that's the mind... The mindset that you take is, is there already too much out there? Mike: And of course, when we were making the podcast, we did all the research we could to figure out that, okay, there's probably not enough. There's not a lot of podcasts that are focused on web development specifically for junior developers that are just starting out. So we decided to fill that hole and I think there's space enough for plenty others to come in and fill that hole. But five years, 10 years down the line, maybe it will be overcrowded. It would be ignorant to think that it's always going to be open, obviously. Brian: Okay. So for your podcast, how do you measure success? How do you know if it's working? Mike: Great question, actually. So when we first started the podcast, one thing that we kind of wanted to do was, again, connect with the community and almost luckily for us, almost two weeks after we created it and put out our first couple episodes, we had people reach out to us talking about the podcast, whether it be through discord, whether it be through Twitter, we just had that connection immediately with... It wasn't a lot of people. It was maybe three to five people at the time, but that was a huge thing for us. we were putting it out into the ether. We didn't know what was going on. We were just doing it for fun really at the time. We didn't know what was going to happen, but having those first few people give you feedback was a big indicator of success for us. Mike: And as we kind of built on that, we created a discord community for the podcast, for web development in general, and our gauge of success is how much people interact with us. So the Twitter is a perfect example of when I kind of went on Twitter and started taking Twitter seriously in the tech community side. It was a huge eye opener because there's so many people on there, and all of a sudden people were seeing HTML All The Things on Twitter and interacting with me because of it, because they had already into the podcast before. And again, that was another... Okay, great. Mike: And obviously, to build on that, there is statistics that you can look at. The statistics go up, that's a great indicator, but in a small niche podcast sense... We're not huge podcasters. We're not huge personalities in the space. We didn't have a ton of experience beforehand so we didn't have that audience to build on. We couldn't expect to be on the level of, let's say just Syntax as a comparison, obviously, and we didn't want to be either. That's not our competition. Mike: So our thought was, hey, if we can connect with some people in the community, if we can establish those great connections early on, then there is some... There's something to this. And we did it way faster than I thought we would. We made some really good friends, some really good people that we trust with work at this point. We've found people to work with through the podcast. We found clients through the podcast. So, that's our measure of success. That's a really key indicator for us. As long as it keeps growing in a sense of a community again, or as long as I can still have those conversations with people that listen and have questions and have criticisms, that's all we really need. Brian: I always feel like the hardest part, and one of the things that we were trying to... I think this is episode 70 something for us. So we're still like really pretty new and it's been maybe a year..., was the distribution part. It was like... What? Because you had mentioned, oh, we're just kind of putting it out into the ether and that it really does feel like that, and all of the other ways that you might think about marketing a podcast... Brian: I don't want to lose the audience and talk about marketing a podcast, but it's a terrible idea. All the other options available to you are not great, and they're not... For this audience in particular, nobody wants that. But I do like the discord part because that is for me, seems relatively new. That's kind of what I mean by... Okay, well this is where the audience goes to talk about the show and then that's where you have an opportunity to kind of interact that way. I really do like that part. Do you ever get... I'm sure what you do, show ideas or things you pull out of the disc- Mike: Tons. Tons, honestly. They do such a good job at bringing us ideas that we have a thread obviously there that people can drop their ideas in, and we kind of transfer the ones that we think resonate with us and that we can do to a Trello. Mike: Just in general, the inspirations from our audience or from even the Twitter space and all that, all of that is what drives us to continue and it gives us all the, all the ideas that we can possibly think of. People ask me this recently where... Aren't you going to run out of stuff to talk about? And I'm like, "Have you looked at the web development space? Everyday, there's a new framework that comes out. Everyday, there's a new piece of technology. Maybe again, when it matures 50 years down the line, it might become boring, which is great. That's fine. But right now, it's the wild west. We could talk about this every day of the week if we had time. Brian: Yeah. I was just talking to somebody about this. I forget. Apologies. I'm sure it was on this podcast where there's the idea of kind of... The web dev space is very complex right now, and then it'll eventually kind of shrink. If you're watching the video, you can watch my really helpful hand gestures. It's like, "Shrink down to a smaller sort of pipe of... Now, it's just kind of a singularity and then it'll eventually wind up again. It'd be more complicated." Brian: I have no idea if that's true or not, but I kind of like the undulating nature of front end development. But I do think that... Speaking of new things as a decent segue into Svelte. So you have a course on Svelte and that just seems to me that's something, an area of interest for you and kind of showing people who are new to either Svelte or web dev about it. Why? What is it they think so cool? Mike: So this is a good one. Yeah. I was a huge Vue guy for a long time. I still am. I still love Vue and I like React too. I'm not one of those people that care too much about what framework people use. But the reason I kind of pivoted to Svelte was because I had this experience. I was working on a project with kind of a senior dev at the time, one of my mentors actually, and they always started with JavaScript jQuery and that was their domain. They were really, really good at it. Mike: And maybe a year or so ago, I tried to pivot them a little bit into Vue because I wanted them to see the new technologies out there and how much easier it is to do certain things that jQuery just doesn't do as well, as efficiently, and I had trouble. I had trouble kind of explaining the concepts, why you would use this instead of jQuery or JavaScript in general. I had some trouble and then, a few months down the... A few months ago, right now we were building a project together and I was like, "Hey, let's try Svelte and he's like, "Well, I don't know. , I didn't have a good experience with Vue." And I'm like, "Well just try it. Just give it a shot." And literally, a day later he came back to me and he was like, "Look what I've built." And he had built the whole front end, everything with Svelte, with no jQuery, nothing. And I was like, "Okay, this is different obviously." And he's like, "Yeah. This made total sense to me coming from JavaScript and jQuery right into Svelte." Mike: I had that connection in my mind that... Yeah, Svelte has this great almost sugar free syntax. So the syntax doesn't have a lot of boiler plate code and it does look very similar to just plain JavaScript. So someone coming from a strong JavaScript background can pick up a framework really, really quickly. Not to say that React and Vue are very complicated or bad, but just coming from that mindset of someone just finishing their HTML, CSS, JavaScript, three pillars, I think that to get into a framework and to understand the basic framework concepts like reactivity, like conditional rendering, template looping, those kinds of things, the technical aspects that a framework really helps you with, that's where Svelte does a really, really good job in. Mike: So that's why I wanted to make the course. I wanted to make a course that was almost intermediary between your JavaScript knowledge and your framework knowledge so that when you go and learn a framework... Because reality is Svelte is not super popular in this industry yet. I have a feeling it might be, but who knows? React is still the king. It'll probably will be the king for a long time and that's fine. But if you're having trouble picking up React, I tell people, just take a look at Svelte. Take a look at the course that we created or go through their documentation, whatever works for you, and see if you can start understanding the concepts there and then go to React. Because those concepts that you understand in Svelte, they're the same in React, just different syntax, obviously. Brian: That's the hardest kind of content to make is that intermediate. That intro style or the intro stuff you can either pull from the docs or whatever, and then the expert level stuff... Yes, it's very hard to make expert level stuff but also five people are able to understand it, once you get at that level. Brian: How do you think about identifying... What's your process even for identifying... This content is probably kind of middle ground. I've done the same thing that's why I'm asking. How do you figure out that someone who's got enough... Like you said, you've got the... Maybe I should let you answer the question. How about that? Mike: No, I think you were getting there too because- Brian: Yeah. Mike: ... like you said, it's really difficult, but we always tell people to learn the three pillars and it really is difficult to know when to jump from straight HTML, JavaScript and CSS to something like a framework. And I always kind of just... Mike: I have this arbitrary line in the sand where I'm... If you understand function calls, if statements looping and arrays, maybe Ajax as well, maybe some API stuff, if you understand those five basic concepts, that's usually a good indicator that... Yeah, you're not an expert, but you don't need to be and that's when you can start looking at different things. So that's a line in the sand and that's not scientific in any way but when someone asked me and I've been asked this way too many times at this point that I had to come up with an answer, that made sense to me, that's where I come kind of go to initially. Mike: But having said that, probably almost everyone that I talk to hasn't gone through that process. Everyone is different. Everyone's path to web development is different and most people are like, "Well, I started with React and then I went to JavaScript." And I'm not saying that that's the wrong way to do it. It's just like, if I was recommending someone to do it today, there is maybe a better path. But if you go through React and learn JavaScript that way, you can still be an amazing developer. There's no problems there at all. It's just, I think that could be harder for people in fact. So you did something that was more challenging. Brian: You could say that it's the wrong way to do it. Your Twitter engagement would go up a little bit and maybe gives them more listeners and it'd be all right. I'm sure... No, I'm sure Twitter's very understanding. Yeah. Twitter's very cool with differences. Mike: I'm sure. Yeah, they are. They're great. Brian: It's actually not that bad. I think anyway, as far as... It could certainly be worse. Brian: Yeah. All right. So I asked you a question that you've been quite a bit, but I think... What I was looking for was... For Svelte content specifically, how do you think about intermediate Svelte content or do you even think about it that way? Is it... Mike: Yeah, it's a tough one because... So Svelte content is the same as... For me, it's the name as any framework, content or whatever. So intermediate Svelte content would be, I guess, a couple steps up. Mike: So completing a project, just a simple project to me would be an intermediate level. So the documentation is the beginner level. Just doing those little code snippets that hide and show a div, that's intermediate. But as soon as you add a twist to it, people start to kind of freak out a little bit. So as soon as you're like, "Well, create this application on your own," Create a simple application that can add a workout schedule or something like that. It's not a very complex application, but as soon as you have someone think through the steps to create it in a certain framework, that becomes intermediate level for me and if they can do that from start to finish. Mike: Now, it doesn't have to be a perfect application in the end. It doesn't have to connect to a backend. It could just be front end, depending on what kind of developer you are, but as soon as you can kind of problem solve your way to the end, that shows that you're not just learning the basic concepts, you're also learning how to put them together. I think that's the answer to your question now that I've come to it myself. The putting together of the basic concepts is the intermediate level. Brian: Do you ever think about professionals when you're putting together content, who might stumble onto your content organically? If this is something that... Or does that might... Mike: Negatively, in the sense that professional will see it and be like, "Oh, this is the wrong way to do it." Or is it different? Brian: Oh no, no, no, no, no. Do you ever think when you're making a course or anything... Because I think about it sometimes for us, when was... Our audience is mostly working devs who are working on a very specific thing. They forgot how to do a thing or never knew how to do a thing or something has come out and they just whatever. They do what most people do, which is Google the thing and then they find us. So I wonder for you, do you ever think somebody who's at work or working on something, will they stumble on my content and will it kind of... Is there a way that you can maybe speak to both audiences? Does that ring true to your head or am I... Is that a crazy thought? Mike: No. That's actually a really good thought because recently I was on a project... In fact, I'm still on it. I'm kind of managing a small team and we've chosen Svelte as the framework and someone was coming up from React and they're like, "Hey, I've never done Svelte before. Is it hard?" And I just gave him my course and I'm like, "Listen, just take a look at the course. It's short. It's sweet. You can skip through it, but I make some parallels in there specifically for people that are coming from React. So you can kind of take a look and see if it's going to be a problem for you and then we can kind of have the discussion later." And they went through the course in an hour, came back to me like, "Yeah, I understand it. I get it." And that's it. Mike: So you can absolutely use what I've created or what you create in both settings, both people that are coming from zero or like not in a professional and people that are working in a team because people... I think this is a different... This disconnect that people have between people that are learning and never having done a professional project and people that have done a professional project, the gap is very, very narrow. In fact, probably nonexistent, right? Mike: Yes, someone that's already been in a team environment, that's already kind of completed a project start to finish with a team is going to have a little bit of an edge on someone that's never done that before, but realistically, it could be the opposite. There could be someone that's learning on their own that's never done it even better or than someone like me even or something like that. It depends on where you're at in your journey. Just because someone's a professional doesn't mean they're all of a sudden this expert in any sort of domain, they're just completing problems. They're trying to solve problems and getting paid for it. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of... I agree is the shortest way I could possibly say it, but the other ways is... That's how I like to learn. If you know how to do whatever name, if you know how to do two or three other things and then you don't know necessarily how to do the fourth related but still different thing, you're going to go and start on YouTube probably and watch... If my washing machine breaks, I'm going to watch washing machine videos and after five of them, I'll be the Maytag repair man. That's the hope. Usually, though it doesn't really work out that way, but that's... Brian: But I want person giving me the instruction to talk to me like I have no idea what I'm doing or at the very least, assume you know what a wrench is? Yes. Great. Start there, maybe. Mike: Agreed. Brian: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk a little bit more about your agency. Tell me about what it is and really what I find super interesting whenever we have folks on like you is, how did you start building your business exactly? And then really, how did you get clients? Walk me through the parts that pertain to kind of the web dev portion of it. Maybe not necessarily chamber of commerce 101, but I think you can... Mike: Yeah. I got you. I got you. Mike: So yeah. We started our agency and we did it right after school for us. So we were both in the same kind of course, computer engineering course. We did it because we had a contract lined up that was going to be kind of split IT and web development work, which quickly became only web development work because we're like, "We're not doing it anymore. Scratch that. Don't want to do that." And with that... Mike: So we built up one kind of really decent customer that was paying our bills, let's say, and after that we kind of just went out into our own network. That was our biggest thing and that's the biggest thing I tell people to do right now is, you have to build your network. You have to go out and talk to your parents, talk to your parents' friends, talk to your friends parents and stuff like that if you're starting out young. You have to tap it in because if you want to do it without that, it's a grind and I mean a real grind. If you want to go on Guru or a freelancer, Upwork, all those websites and just try to build your freelancing business from there expect a lot of under paid work, trying to underbid people that are essentially being paid nothing initially, because all you have to do in those cases is try to get reviews and try to have that snowball start going and that part is very, very grindy. Mike: I know a lot of people kind of come on and say like, "Hey, freelancing is great. It's awesome. It's easy." Sometimes stuff like that. It's not easy in any way, shape or form. It's so freaking difficult, especially starting out because you don't have a reputation and everything is that reputation. For sure, once you have the reputation, it becomes better and you have more options and stuff like that. Still not easy, still feast or famine. But it's for sure one of those things where you need to tap into your network and we did it safely, I want to say. We were lucky in the sense that, you know, we were still living at home. We were just out of school, very, very safe environment. Mike: In a riskier environment, I would've thought twice doing what we did because it was a slow ramp up for sure. But eventually, we did kind of get our base clients and then we started branching out a little bit more risky into [inaudible 00:26:52]. We did some Guru, which is again, kind of like an Upwork and that landed us some bigger clients. And the bigger clients, as soon as you land one or two of those and you have a good relationship, usually you start slow with small tasks and you build up, build up, build up until the point where I was working as a tech lead for a San Diego based startup for about three years through the business, through a contract, which was a great starting point for us to build up on top of our other businesses. Brian: Do you have, or I guess the way I would ask the question is, when do you start thinking about getting clients further away than driving distance from you? Especially internationally, is that something that is on your mind or- Mike: Initially, yes. Hugely. Brian: Yeah. Mike: We were actually, initially only focused on local markets, which was a huge mistake. We made every mistake in the book you could make as freelancers, and I think that's normal, but regardless, we made a lot of mistakes and we were way too narrow in our search and we got narrow clients. So we got clients that... Mike: I like to tell this story where we put an out out on Kijiji, which is our Craigslist about web development and of course, you're going to get some weird calls. So I got a call. I was in a store and someone wanted us to build a complete restaurant website with an interactive menu and a checkout system. Just on the call. And I was like, "Okay, that's fine. That's all sounds good." And they're like, "Okay, how much is it going to be in a ballpark?" And I gave them some number. It was maybe $3,000. We're still early on. That's way too low, even now for something that complex. And they were just flabbergasted, right? They were just like, "No, we're not doing that. That's ridiculous. The most I would pay is $200." Something crazy difference in price. Mike: And you start realizing that as soon as you're narrowing your clients, you're also narrowing your opportunities very quickly, and you're kind of getting this other issue where you're also letting in a bunch of noise as well from really small clients. So quickly, very quickly, again, we started targeting larger corporations, larger... Maybe other dev agencies that we could partner with that made client acquisition a lot easier and more efficient. And we were working with people that knew what they were talking about in terms of pricing. That's a really big thing and a really difficult conversation to have every time. Mike: So you want to have that kind of mutual respect both ways when you're looking for a client and it takes time and you're going to make mistakes going through it, but it's important to get there at some point, if you plan on doing this long term, because you don't want to undervalue yourself every single time. The more undervalued you are, the less likely you're going to do good work and the more likely it is going to get to the point where you're going to burn out. Brian: Well, because you're doing your own business development also. So in addition to... And this is a very classic freelancer gripe, but it's the reality. You are sales. You're everything. So yeah. Mike: Yeah. You wear many hats and you suck at a lot of them. Brian: I would say... I freelanced for four or five years myself and I can relate to all of it. It's very unpredictable. You're doing your own sales work. Again, once you kind of... It's a marathon, not a sprint. That's for sure. All right. Cool. Brian: Well, so this is kind of the point in the show where we do plugs and then I like to ask people who would you like to sort of shout out who maybe should get more attention, but doesn't. They'll listen to this and- Mike: Absolutely- Brian: Billions of followers. Mike: All right. So I'll do plugs first and then, I have someone in mind for that last part. Brian: Yeah. Mike: So plugs for me are pretty simple. HTML All The Things, it's our web development podcast. It's a weekly podcast released on Wednesdays. We talk about all things web development, trying to target the junior level very much so. We've been doing a lot of interviews lately with some amazing people. Again, we always try to kind of bring it down to the junior level when you're starting out, trying to get up to speed. We also try to digest all the new information that we're getting and give you kind of a good condensed version of information so that you don't have to go out there yourself to find all the different stuff that's going on in the web development industry because we know it's constantly expanding. Mike: That, and we already talked about it in this podcast, the Svelte course. Svelte For Beginners, it's on Udemy. I'll have the link, I'll have a discount code in that link. And that's a great course to get you started, not only learning Svelte, but again, the fundamentals of JavaScript frameworks. That's the kind of bisection that I'm going for, is making sure that I can give you that really smooth transition from your initial learnings of JavaScript to JavaScript frameworks. As well obviously, if you're interested in Svelte, it's a fantastic framework. Check out the course. I think really that's it. You can follow me and talk to me on Twitter. I'm constantly there. Brian: All right. So who should we talk about? Who do you want people to go... After they're done looking at your stuff- Mike: Jacob MG Evans. So he works for CloudFlare. I think he was just promoted to their CloudFlare workers team, which is a cool organization inside of CloudFlare. And he has a open source Raid Guild discord server, which is really, really interesting. I highly recommend you talk to him about this because what they do is they find open source projects that they can all kind of raid together like a world of Warcraft raid. Brian: Yeah. Mike: So they organize who takes over what poll request, who takes over what issue, and they just spend a weekend killing off all the issues of really good open source projects that are maybe just struggling for people to work on. And they do this pretty consistently. They're trying to gameify it a little bit with the website with leveling up and stuff like that as you go through open source projects. Yeah. Mike: So Jacob MG Evans, that's his Twitter handle and his name is obviously, Jacob Evans. So you can find him on Twitter. Cool guy. Brian: That sounds amazing. I'd love to talk to him about that because if you have a open source project that has a lot of bugs and you're just sort of- Mike: You're just one person. You're like, "I can't do this." Brian: And then people just sort of reign down from above and solve all your problems for you. That sounds amazing. Brian: Cool. Thanks so much for being on. I enjoyed it very much. Come on back. Mike: Of course. Thanks Brian. Brian: See you. Brian: Thanks for listening to PodRocket. Find us at PodRocketpod on Twitter, or you could always email me even though that's not a popular option. It's Brian@logrocket.