Paul: Hi there, and welcome to PodRocket. I'm your host, Paul, and today we are welcoming back to the podcast Adewale Abati, also known as Ace. So, Ace, you are a developer advocate, right, for CodeSandbox? Adewale Abati: Yes. Paul: And you're a senior engineer at Flutterwave. Adewale Abati: Oh, I used to be at Flutterwave. Paul: Oh, you used to be. Okay, so you moved on from Flutterwave, and now are you full-time with CodeSandbox? Adewale Abati: Yeah, I am full-time with CodeSandbox. Paul: Full time, awesome. So we wanted to get into some of the things you're working on with CodeSandbox and off of your recent talk you just gave about developing the browser. So we're going to talk about developing the browser and any other things we can pick your brain about and learn about how you think we're moving in development in 2022. So welcome to the podcast, Ace. Adewale Abati: Thank you, Paul. Glad to be here. Paul: Yeah, I'm really glad to have you on because I'm a fan of CodeSandbox. I've used it pretty much every week. It's a useful tool. Adewale Abati: Oh yeah? Paul: Yeah, I see it all over the place. So it's kind of cool to see somebody from that side of the organization, we can ask you questions. So how did you get into CodeSandbox? What attracted you to their technology and ethos? Adewale Abati: It was quite an exciting journey, actually. I was looking to get a new experience and just find the next opportunity for me. At the time, I am still very passionate about the web, but I was trying to position myself in a space where I could contribute to web development generally and also at the same time impact other people, be a part of the community. And seeing the opening on CodeSandbox on Twitter was just felt like the perfect opportunity, because CodeSandbox itself is trying to shape how we build for the web over the next few years. And at the same time, the community is an active community of web developers that are building amazing things. So I was like this is the perfect blend of being in a space where I can see what people are building, I can be inspired to build stuff, and at the same time be a member of the community and just impact people talking about what CodeSandbox is trying to do. So it just felt like the perfect blend, positioning myself in the center of the web and the ecosystem as a whole and just contributing my own part to it. So I was like I have to apply to this and thank God it went well. Paul: What an answer. You took a job of the heart in that decision. You really must have felt... Adewale Abati: Yeah, I thought about it. I thought about it. Because I have a wide array of experience. I've been a backend engineer, I've been a frontend engineer, full stack engineer, just trying to understand how the web works. And for the recent half of my career as well, I've spent more time in dev advocacy. But I was trying to find a good balance between developer relations and also continuing to code and contribute to the web landscape itself. So just being able to balance those was a decision I had to make at that time, and I'm glad it worked out. Paul: CodeSandbox has so much of that social aspect to it. One thing I love about my experience using it is people can riff off and iterate off of other people's ideas and you sort of get this tree of thought that spawns from it. I'm sure that's just 1% of what you find that's powerful about CodeSandbox. But before we get into the social stuff, I want to back up to something you said, which was CodeSandbox, they're trying to reimagine the way we interact with development on the web in the next few years. Could we get into that for a few minutes? I'm really curious about what that package has inside. Adewale Abati: Yeah, absolutely because if you think about the journey of CodeSandbox, it started out as Ives, that's our co-founder, trying to figure out a way to share code with colleagues and stuff and just primarily focused on reacts in the beginning where you could just share react code by just sharing the link, right? Because if you think about it, first things first, you want to think about sharing code today or even at any point in time you share your [inaudible] or a folder [inaudible] send via email. Or imagine sending a whole sandbox of developed environment already set up and you just have to go into that space and see what's going on. So that's how CodeSandbox started just prototyping quickly, being able to replicate snippets, see how things are working, debug on the go. But the way we are reimagining our web development is going to work or is working at the moment, to be honest. Because we have projects live already in beta and also being able to contribute to open source even better. So what we've tried to do is leverage this entire connection between just general web development and open source itself and create a platform where you can build on the go. And I'm a living example for that because a few months ago actually my mobile crashed on a live stream and I had to get a new Windows laptop just in the meantime while I replace it. Paul: Oh my gosh. Adewale Abati: I know, right? Paul: Wow, yeah. Adewale Abati: I was so lucky because a lot of my projects were on GitHub and all I had to do was just, I purchased the new Windows laptop and I just went straight to CodeSandbox and was just importing my project and just started working all in my browser. Till today, I have zero development environment set up locally. I did not have to bother about oh this is what I need for Windows, what I needed on my Mac. I just ignored the entire open system and just focused on my browser. So today I'm working on my website, my project all in my browser without having to worry if I'm on a Windows or on a MacBook. So it has totally changed that experience. And to answer your question even more detail, we've moved from a point where we are trying to prototype and build small projects quickly to being able to manage even large size JavaScript projects or frontend full stack applications, whether at scale. Initially Excalidraw, I don't know if you know Excalidraw, it's a very amazing tool. Paul: Excalidraw, yeah, the drawing tool? Adewale Abati: Yeah. Paul: Gotcha, yeah. Adewale Abati: Yeah the drawing tool. It started on Codesandbox as just a sandbox and they grew in need of just a prototype in tool and it moved off. But today, CodeSandbox Project totally supports building something as big as a Excalidraw on CodeSandbox Project. So that's the progression we made and that's where we are today, being able to support this large open source project or just web applications in general. Paul: I think that's amazing. I've never heard or fathomed that this little tool I use could do that. So just to reiterate, CodeSandbox right now can support and create a development environment for a shared space for a project as big as the Excalidraw, which we all know and love. Adewale Abati: Yes, I can go on and on about that. It's amazing. It blows my mind. I have my personal website running totally on CodeSandbox. If I have to make any updates, I just use my iPad or my laptop, just go to the branch and just set it up. And one amazing thing that also comes into play actually with these large size project is that with CodeSandbox, we also create a development environment by URL. So if you create a new branch, that branch at its own dev environment that when you send in a PR, whoever is trying to review your PR can just go straight to that link and they see what you've done without having to set up literally anything. They're like, okay this is exchange you've made, this is what you've done and they can approve or just reject or whatever the case is, or even collaborate with you on that branch and then make the match. So it's not about, someone has sent a PR, we have to clone it first or we have to pull that branch first and see how everything is working. You just go to a link and you see how everything is going in seconds. So it's like we call it every branch has it's own unique URL so it's very smooth and very powerful at this point what's possible with Projects. Paul: That's one thing that really grinds my gears with Git is checking out other people's PRs, downloading them and it never works, and then you got to figure it out and then you get it to work and then you can put the comments and that's a process. It's development time. Adewale Abati: Yeah, exactly. So I maintain an open source project myself. So a typical scenario is, even if I have direct communication lines with the person, I'm like, oh you made this, this is not working correctly. You have to go fix this and then wait and it takes forever. And that's not even putting into consideration the time it took you to set it up. In another situation a fairly [inaudible] CodeSandbox, once a person sends in a PR, you can go to the branch, this person can be on the branch with you and you guys talk about it or collaborate right on that spot in that branch in your browser and you fix everything that you need to fix. And then the PR is meshed straight up like that without any additional time wasted on set up. And I think that's what your life's about, to be honest. Paul: Every hour you spend on a developer is like 100 company dollars between the HR and everything else. So I can see that translating to direct company value if it saves people time and they use that time effectively. Adewale Abati: Yeah, and since we are in public beta right now actually we are just trying to spread the word to let people know what's now possible and get people to just try it out for themselves and see how much time and effort this project's going to save them. Paul: Enjoying the podcast? Consider hitting that follow button for more great episodes. So I'm pretty sure if anybody who's used to a traditional environment coming into a CodeSandbox-type of world, they're going to have a lot of concerns, worries and questions. Sort of like if Tesla comes out with their car and they say, "Yes, it can drive to California," and there's like no chargers in Nevada and then you say, "Okay, well I wanted to make sure the infrastructure was there and what I needed to get my task done was there." So what do you think is one of the most common concerns, even if it's not a real concern, just something that people think about in their own mental models that they might come to you with and they're like, "Hey, does it do this? Can I run my learner project?" What's the most common one or some of the most common ones? Adewale Abati: There are a few. Let me just think for a sec. There are a few obstacles in just getting people to come over. First is that people are just so used to their local environment and they are resistant to change. I'm just trying to show that you can still get the same workflow and a familiarity with your editor on CodeSandbox Project itself. And even recently we just announced the Visual Studio Code integration. So right from your own local studio, visual studio installation locally on your laptop, you can still work on projects and take advantage of all the benefits. I think another thing people would ask about would be if you support any other language outside of JavaScript. And the thing that we've been experimenting with as well with docka and [inaudible ] just trying to support multiple frameworks, even languages in general. So regardless of your stack it can still be on Project. So it's a work in progress but that's one area that people ask about before they start considering moving over. Paul: So if I had a Python script in my JavaScript repo, I have this right now for a project. I have this serverless function, there's a Python script to sort of do load testing, just one file, it's like 80 lines. Is that something that I would want to run with some environment locally pinging a staging from my CodeSandbox Project or could I still include the text file in the branch? Adewale Abati: You can still include it and like I mentioned, we've been trying to provide even better support for docka for example. So a recommended approach for that kind of repository would be using a docka setup to just go into it. There might be a better approach right now, but just off the top of my head, we support docka already, although it's a work in progress and you'll be able to do that with Projects as well. Paul: Gotcha. Okay. So if you put in a docka container you can do anything, right? Adewale Abati: Right, yeah. Right. Paul: What do you think is one of the most sticky mental shifts that people have when hopping into the CodeSandbox workflow? Is it the no Mac, no PC-type of thing? Is it managing dependencies? Adewale Abati: Like I said, it's Adewale Abati:[inaudible] moving away from your local environment. A lot of people are just resistant to change. But one thing I found actually making this move when my laptop [inaudible] was technically it is smooth but I just have to be able to have a learning curve to understand this is how this application, because there are multiple ideas on the web, this is how this application has approached this solution. So when you're using Projects these days, you are able to start up your terminal writing the browser as well and you can do most of the things that you need to do locally with your home terminal. But I think that phase of just as accepting to adopt this new change, it's a little bit of a learning curve where okay, this is no longer my local environment but it can provide even better value for me than my own local environment and just trying to adapt to it would be a process as well. Paul: And do you think that that adjustment happens quickly when people step into it? Like Google Docs, when I saw Google Docs I was like, that's it, I'm never installing Word again. Is that the type of reaction you get? Adewale Abati: It is a little bit mixed because some people are just not so optimistic and just want to protect their application even though CodeSandbox is quite secure but there's a period of convincing there. And there are also some other people where just trying it out works and they're sold completely, like oh my God this is the next best thing since sliced bread. And for those kind of people, they're like earlier adopters, they just enjoy the benefits and features that we provided for them. Because the editor has been set up in a way that it's very similar to what a local environment would look like. We tried as much as possible to not introduce jarring changes. So if you picture your VS Code environment for example, what you would see on the browser is also very similar to that material file [inaudible] on the left, you can set up terminals on the menu of those things. So we try as much as possible to keep the UX as similar as possible where things you need to do are quite intuitive but I can't just dismiss the fact that there would be a little bit of resistance or a learning process just for you to get more familiar or more comfortable with the environment. Paul: And what is the environment that runs underneath? Is it an [inaudible] based-type of thing? What are the gears inside? Adewale Abati: So I don't have full intel on that but I know we run micro VMs recently published a Firecracker post. I think that's actually a [inaudible] but don't take my word for it. I would've to go back to confirm. But we run a bunch of micro VMs to try and make sure that the starting up time is as fast as possible actually when it comes to branching and forking a new repository or whatever the case is. It'll post in milliseconds. So a lot of these things are done just leveraging on micro VMs to be able to increase the speed, increase productivity. You basically feel like you just took a picture and you continue where you stopped. So that's things we're looking into. For example, we just published a post on Firecracker on how we use it and that covers most of our infrastructure in terms of how people can get environments running. Paul: Gotcha. Okay, so we can go look at the Firecracker post and search up. Adewale Abati: Yes, that would be- Paul: ... CodeSandbox and it'll probably pop up because it's a [inaudible]- Adewale Abati: Yeah. Paul: Okay. So we're all on one development environment, sort of, like one kernel probably. A lot of environments, micro VMs are going to be spawn from some kernel spec that's going to be similar between all of them and it's going to standardize to some degree JavaScript development. And I'm sure that's going to let people share their development, not just amongst their teams, but CodeSandbox was built for sharing, right? Do you think that's going to translate from 25% of code is open source today? Which don't quote that, that's not true. I'm just throwing a number out there. Let's say, 25% of code is open source today. Do you think if we have a migration over to CodeSandbox we'll see 35% of code become open source? Adewale Abati: I don't know for sure, but I think we definitely would have an impact on the ease which you can contribute to open source. And a lot the backbone of the projects that we build require you to also have a version control that [inaudible] itself like foundation of your project. So if you are someone that wants to build a public-facing project, you would definitely lean towards just making it open source once and for all. But we've been inclined to just support a ton of these kind of projects. I'm not sure about the numbers, like you said, but I definitely think it'll have an impact. To be honest, open source has been a huge part of our entire mission as well, just trying to improve the entire process, make it as easy as possible, make it very intuitive for people to just easily contribute to opensource. So definitely we're going to have an impact on how much more people contribute and how much easier it becomes for people to just understand the entire open source process and start building or adding to stuff. Emily: It's Emily again, producer for PodRocket and I want to talk to you. Yeah, you, the person who's listening but won't stop talking about your new favorite frontend framework to your friends even though they don't want to hear about it anymore. Well I do want to hear about it because you are really important to us as a listener. So what do you think of PodRocket? What do you like best? What do you absolutely hate? What's the one thing in the entire world that you want to hear about? Edge computing, weird little component libraries, how to become a productive developer when your WiFi's out. I don't know and that's the point. If you get in contact with us, you can rant about how we haven't had your favorite dev advocate on or tell us we're doing great, whatever. And if you do, we'll give you a $25 gift card. That's pretty sweet, right? So reach out to us, links are in the description. $25 gift card. Paul: Would you say that CodeSandbox is an open source first company? Adewale Abati: Yes, I would actually say that because it's actually some things we discuss internally. CodeSandbox itself was built on the community. The projects tied out open source. And I don't want to give you a teaser but even in the next few weeks we've making an announcement that is driving us into even more open source territory. But a lot of the features, a lot of the products that we built in recent times have been very open source-driven so we are absolutely an open source first company. We have SandPack which is changing how people build documentations, interactive with [inaudible]. Because we've come to a point where we've moved from just even taking screenshots of code to put in your blog post to embedding Sandbox into your blog post, to now have an interactive code in your blog post. Even on your personal website where you want to do, for example, a step-by-step introduction to a technical problem. SandPack allows you to basically run each step on the go and just customize the entire interactive environment in your blog post. So we've been very inclined to just continue to improve the open source experience for as many people as possible. Paul: So that's called SandPack? Adewale Abati: Yeah, SandPack. You should definitely check it out. Paul: Gotcha. Adewale Abati: It's open source as well. Paul: It's open source as well? Adewale Abati: Yes. Paul: I love to hear that. I love how companies in general are moving towards just making stuff open source. I think it's coming to the realization too that, especially for niche pieces of technology, like we have this really cool JavaScript app. It's like anybody with enough time and funding can go build that. It's like code's becoming a commodity in a weird way so guarding it, is that really the best decision? Not really. I don't know. It's something for the executives to figure out. So in general, having a standardized development environment where I don't need to worry about my setup, I just kind of go and everything... All that stuff is really nice but one fear I would now selfishly love to pick your brain about is I feel as if if I talk to folks who have been my mentor teaching me computer science, they'll tell me how to compile C code with 3 different things, that I've only used one in my whole life. And then if I go to somebody that's 5 years or 10 years older than me, they have knowledge of all these orchestration tools and how to change environments. "You want to use this version or that version or this version. I wrote a script for you. Here, use this, junior dev." And I say thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for teaching me. And it's almost like we're in a pyramid and there's a pyramid of base and knowledge down there and then you get some people that are more niche on JavaScript on top of that. And then you have some people that are more niche on WebAssembly on top of that. And you'd get nicher and nicher and nicher and fewer and fewer people. But now I feel like it's getting flipped a little bit. It's like we're building a pyramid where we have people who are really, really good at making a D3 visualization, but they wouldn't know how to boot it on their computer. They only would do it in... And maybe this is just me being afraid of us losing knowledge, but- Adewale Abati: I think I can see where you're approaching it from. Paul: Yeah, I almost feel like we're flipping the pyramid of fundamental knowledge in some ways and looking at platforms that try to retain original tooling environments and original terminal environments and stuff like that. I think it really will help us keep that base. If you have any thoughts on that, I wonder, do you agree? It seems like you were smiling a bit, like you're not sure if you agree so I'm curious what you think. Adewale Abati: Yeah, I'm not sure how that would play out because at first I thought about abstraction and how people just make it easier for as many more people to do stuff but they might not be able to understand what's the underlying part of it and just go for it. And I feel like that kind of keeps the pyramid going because the higher you go, the more abstraction you would get and that's fewer people making the abstraction easier for a larger number of people. So, although there might be interesting cases where the reverse is the case like you explained, I think in the long run there's just going to be more people that just want to get more stuff done than even just be very knowledgeable. They just want to get stuff done so they're just going to take advantage of the work of the few to be able to do as many things as they can possibly do without getting their hands too dirty. So I think just that mindset of let me just do this thing as quickly as possible. We keep the pyramid idea- Paul: I like that a lot. I think you might have changed my mind. It's not that there's less people who know how to compile code, it's just there's more people coding because more people are enabled. Adewale Abati: Exactly. For example, anyway, in Legacy where we have a common C-driven learning process where a lot of people come together just to learn how to code and you have, say, 2, 3 educators impacting 1000 people at a go and the level or the amount of people that come into tech as beginners is just exponentially higher and people that are currently inside and it just continues to grow like that. And gradually they would of course step into higher levels but there's just that exponential difference in the different levels and the lower levels, the more people I think are present there. Paul: Interesting. Okay. I guess it's just different being in a webcentric world sometimes where you lose communicating with those people. But I can totally understand if you're in a more in-person meetup and you're educating each other, you see the whole breadth of technology. Adewale Abati: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Paul: What was funny is I was watching another one of your podcasts and one of the hosts was like, "Oh yeah, here in America we just turn blind to the rest of things that are going on." This is one of those things. Here we go. We're circling back to your other podcast. Adewale Abati: I think that's CodingCat, yeah? Paul: Yeah. Adewale Abati: Yeah, I think I remember that conversation. Paul: CodingCat, that's right. Adewale Abati: Yeah. It is reality because there are different experiences all over the world but in the grand scheme of things, I just realized that there are more people doing the easier things as a result of the few people that have made the hard things easy. Paul: Right, and that's a great thing for our exploration and knowledge. Adewale Abati: Absolutely. Yeah. Paul: You changed my mind on this podcast. That's awesome. Adewale Abati: Yay. I'm glad. Paul: So what do I think is going to happen to, let's shift from the future of developers and back to the IDEs, how do you think the IDEs are going to change the next... I know CodeSandbox is going to take over the world and we're all going to become servants to CodeSandbox. But besides that, how do you think IDEs are going to evolve in the next let's say five years? Adewale Abati: I think online IDEs are just going to be very synonymous with development in general. You won't even think about. It's just the way I think we've gotten to a point where if you have, for example, any internet connected phone, for the most part you have a backup of your pictures on the internet, for the most part of it. It's almost like defacto. So as someone that has always been a fan of the web, because I've always pictured the web as, regardless of any innovation that we come across in the next generation or whatever, the web is always going to have a part to play because it's always accessible on literally any device. I can access the browser on my PlayStation. Any device would eventually have some kind of connection to a web set up or whatever at any point in time. And I think building for the web will always continue to evolve and the way ideas would need to get to the point is that it would be so fast to build anything or to start anything off, which means that browsers on their own would have to be very powerful. They are quite powerful right now, but they'll be even more powerful. And a few challenges that lie today is people thinking about how can they maintain connectivity when it comes to contributing code and IDEs when they have bad internet access or whatever or just unreliable devices. And I think the point we would get to is where the obstacles just continue to reduce that just is almost similar where it's very amount of... we want to get to a world where as many people as possible are connected with good internet, but regardless of where you are, even if you're in a rainforest or whatever away from internet, we will still be able to make use of some of these IDEs to your connected again to an extent. So I just picture a very similar integration between our daily, everyday use with online IDEs and just being able to contribute code without even thinking if you're local online. Paul: So it sounds like it's almost like a reinvention of source control in a way, or not a reinvention but an extension. Adewale Abati: Yeah, it is an extension to be honest because even CodeSandbox, we are leveraging a lot on what GitHub's built, because a lot of our infrastructure is also built on the entire workflow, where for example today if you built an application locally and you push it to GitHub, you can get your application from GitHub to CodeSandbox. Or if you start an application on CodeSandbox and you want take it anywhere else or deploy it, you can create a GitHub repository. Today if you should start any project on CodeSandbox, it automatically creates a GitHub repository for you. So we are constantly connected to source control because I feel like is a strong technology that we've built a foundation on on how people contribute code as part of a team and I don't think there's any reason to change that yet. I'm not sure if that's the many pitfalls of the current infrastructure. But I think it's amazing. It works well. I will continue to improve on it and I think there's just going to be the backbone of how people contribute in the future as well. Paul: That's a really interesting distinction. It's not the source control we're changing, it's the platforms and infrastructure it runs on and how we interact with that. Adewale Abati: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Paul: Right on. Okay. So I guess if people wanted to check out some ulterior ways to start, or I don't want to call them ulterior, but more serious ways to start using CodeSandbox other than something I might have done, which is going to the browser and just looking at what other people do, they can go right from GitHub to CodeSandbox or from CodeSandbox right into GitHub today. That's something you can do with a click of a few buttons. Adewale Abati: Yeah, absolutely. So if you have a GitHub repository already, you can get into CodeSandbox. If you want to start we with CodeSandbox, with Project, especially, literally any project you create can be moved to GitHub as well. So it's a very connected workflow, a very connected ecosystem where we make sure that your actual code is yours. We just simplify it, as much as possible, simplify the entire experience around you creating your code so you don't have to think about setting up whatever, you just focus on your code and your code is yours. Paul: Sounds too easy to be true, but I love hearing how easy that is. Adewale Abati: It is true. It is true. It is true. Paul: Well I am kind of running up on time here, Ace. Did you have any other really exciting features that you wanted to advertise out to people who might want to look at CodeSandbox? Adewale Abati: Yeah, Oktoberfest is coming up next month, that's October, and I think if anyone wants to try absolutely anything new, it's a perfect opportunity to witness the power of CodeSandbox. And I'm not even talking about CodeSandbox like one of the [inaudible] systems right now even though it's probably one of it. But it's something that's going to literally change for maintainers and also for contributors that are new or experienced. It just makes the entire open source process as simple as possible. So let me give you a scenario where I think last week I wanted to make contributions to the NOx repository and all I needed to do was just change the URL in my browser because that's also another way to import projects into CodeSandbox. So I go to the GitHub repository and I just added the CodeSandbox URL in front and I have the entire documentation of NOx just running in my browser. I could see the code and I could see a dev environment set up running for me. So all I had to do was just make the changes on that tab and send in a PR. I could see what my changes look like, I could see what they were going to [inaudible] that as. And I just sent in a PR like that in a few minutes having to worry about what my own local load version is, what NPN version is, none of those things. It just worked smooth and I just contributed it and I go. So imagine in the October festival you have to [inaudible] for contributions, you spend less time worrying about what the infrastructure of the project want to contribute to is, but more about, this is value I want to add to this project and just go straight for that value. So it's just going to maximize the efficiency and productivity of developers that make the most of it. Paul: That sounds like such an open source supercharger. That's such a blocker for a lot of open source. It's like how does this damn thing work? Adewale Abati: I know, right? It's like what is with me? [inaudible] good? How can I get started? Paul: It can really be a stick in the mud, right? Adewale Abati: Yeah. Paul: That example sold me. That sounds great. I mean you just go to the branch, you figure out your logic, you put up the PR, all in one environment. Adewale Abati: And you see it run. You see what it looks like on the spot without having to think about any complications. It just works. It is amazing, to be honest. I use it so it's not like I'm just selling something. It's something I use every single day. I don't have a local environment set up whatsoever. I just go to my browser, make code to my own website. We built CodeSandbox in CodeSandbox, so we call it CodeConception, yes. That's what we call it. Paul: And for everybody listening, Ace, is cheesing like he's in a photo shoot because he's so excited about... That's how you know he's legit. Adewale Abati: It is legit. Paul: Well, Ace, is if people wanted... Sorry, go ahead. Adewale Abati: I was going to say I enjoy using it and every single day I'm like, oh this is something new that we would also added. This makes my life easy and I want more people to also experience that as well. So that's the reason for my excitement. Paul: Cool things are exciting too, just by nature. Things that save me time make me excited. Adewale Abati: Yep, I agree. Paul: Well, Ace, people wanted to follow you, are you on Twitter or Medium or any social platforms? Adewale Abati: Yeah, I am on Twitter, Ace_KYD, I think that's Alpha Charlie Echo underscore Kilo, I don't know what is for Y and Delta. So yeah, you can follow me on Twitter at Ace_DYD. I have a YouTube channel as well where I just talk about my experiences, [inaudible] and tech-wise and just lifestyle sometimes as well. And of course you can definitely follow CodeSandbox on YouTube and on Twitter as well just to learn about things that [inaudible]. We have an amazing and exciting announcement to make in a few weeks. And since we announced the open [inaudible], it's just been back-to-back features just trying to improve the entire platform for as many people as possible. So definitely check it out. Paul: Awesome, Ace. Well thank you for your time. Thank you for teaching me about CodeSandbox. I just had no idea that it was this whole ecosystem, so I'm excited to go check it out myself. Adewale Abati: Yeah, definitely. If you have any questions, just hit me up. We can definitely talk about it as well, but I think you're just going to enjoy it so much as [inaudible]. Paul: Great. And hopefully we'll have you on again when CodeSandbox or you reach your next evolution. Adewale Abati: That would be amazing. An absolute pleasure. Thank you. Emily: Hey, this is Emily, one of the producers for PodRocket. I'm so glad you're enjoying this episode. You probably hear this from lots of other podcasts, but we really do appreciate our listeners. 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