Should you use React in 2023? with Tru Narla
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Noel: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Pod Rocket, a web development podcast brought to you by Log Rocket. Log Rocket helps software teams improve user experience with session replay, error tracking and product analytics. You can try it for free@logrocket.com. I'm Noel, and today we have True Nala returning. She's a software engineer at Discord and a web development content creator on Twitch just around the internet.

She's here to talk about her react. Summit Talk, should you use React in 2023? Welcome back. True.

Tru: Thank you so much. No.

Noel: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. I got, I'm excited to chat today. So yeah, as a recording, I haven't seen this talk yet. It hasn't been released, but I've got some questions around it and what you're gonna cover and stuff.

. So ]\ we'll just delve in. Um, But before we do, can you give us a bit of your background and , what you've been working on lately?

Tru: Yeah, so my name is True. I've been, oh, mostly a front end developer for about four years now out of college. And I'm a software engineer for work, but I do a lot of content on the side, and that's mostly programming content. So I started streaming on Twitch about [00:01:00] two, three years ago now.

And then it's just been going onto all of their social medias. Stuff too. So like TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, all that.

Noel: Nice. Is it difficult to create , software related content on those shorter form platforms?

Tru: It's so interesting. I've been talking to a lot of people that do content and they find it harder to do shorter form than long form, and I'm the complete opposite. I actually find it much easier to like condense something into a shorter amount of time and make it vertical. Then do like long form YouTube videos or something?

, but it's not that hard. I actually prefer that. I think I just like use TikTok a lot more than a lot of people do, so I just know the means and all that, so it's a little easier. But

Noel: Yeah, no, I'm always like, I've seen them and stuff and I'm always impressed at how succinctly people can convey information and stuff. It's always just man, this is wild to me. My brain doesn't work that way. It's well done, but I could never put something together in that form.

So I'm always impressed. 

Tru: Thank you. It's

Very scripted. It's not like off the top of my head, so that helps. Sometimes it comes off scripted, but I try to make it more casual.

Noel: No, it's [00:02:00] good. And even with that in mind, it's still just like very impressive at how, quickly info can be conveyed. But yeah. Let's get into the talk a little bit. So it's titled, should You Use React in 2023, what made you title it that way and focus on this framework decision at this point.

Tru: Yeah, I wanted to pick a talk that wasn't too technical, so something that wasn't gonna be like, let's look at code and talk about it. So I was thinking like overarchingly what I could talk about. There's like two options for this talk. One was like, should you use React in 2023? And one was, should you use GraphQL in 2023?

Which would've been way more technical, but I just thought it'd be interesting cuz on Twitter I've noticed like there's a lot of new frameworks that are popping up, right? um, Or different solid js, there's like view, there's anger with all their new stuff too. Spel, there's so many different things and people keep talking about like how React is dying.

And so I wanted to take like a approach at this question and frame it more like there's not an answer, but. What are some ways you can decide on using reactive? [00:03:00] Anything else and like methods of thinking about it. Because I think a lot of times people just give you a definitive yes or no versus giving you ways to formulate your own opinion.

So I was trying to move that talk in that direction. So that was the idea behind it.

Noel: . I think , that's a beneficial kind of area to delve into. I guess What are the high level decision factors that people might take into account when looking at React today?

Tru: Yeah, so we talked I think a lot about like how comfortable are people on your team using React? So how familiar is the team? That's like a big thing for when you're picking a framework. The , second thing was like performance. There's like key metrics that you are interested in.

So let's say you're building a website and you're. Thing you really want is like speed. Maybe there's another framework that's better for that. Like you don't, maybe don't need all of what React has to offer, stuff like that. 

Noel: How long have you been in the front of the space and using React specifically? I.

Tru: Let's see. So I was forced to be a web dev when I interned at Uber in [00:04:00] 2015. And I say forced cause I wanted to be an iOS developer. I actually want, I was really into objective C and making iOS apps, and I thought that was super fun. But they didn't have a project like that at the time. So I was on a React project, and I don't even think we used TypeScript back then.

I don't remember what it was, but I had to learn JavaScript with React, and it was just one of the worst. I did not enjoy it at all, but since then I've been more focused more on front end, and so it's been like, I think I'd say five years give or take. .

Noel: , how would you if you could, give us a synopsis, how has React changed, at least from your perspective in the last five years?

Tru: Yeah. I think the big thing was the shift from class components to function component or like the hooks, all the hook stuff. Because , I remember writing Should component something, right? Some methods like that. Trying to figure out when we should re render or update. And then it was all shifting to use effect, use state.

And so that was like a weird thing for my brain to get adjusted to writing stuff in that way. [00:05:00] But I like the new way so much more. I love hooks. I'm like all about the hooks now, but that was a big thing. I think that changed for me. Also the shift from. No types to type script. I forgot what I used before or, I don't think I was still in college, I think, but the shift to type script was also really cool.

Helped a lot, I think with learning. I think people get it in their head a lot that it's oh, do I have to learn JavaScript and then type script? And I feel like they think overthink the whole thing. 

But 

Noel: Yeah. Yeah. 

I think like the pervasiveness of type script has kinda just impacted the whole. Ecosystem pretty radically. And like tools that are well suited to leverage all of the, like TypeScript abstractions are big. Yeah. I feel like to your point before of the new stuff in React being interesting like hooks in general they've been around for a while, but the new React docs are like a more recent development.

I feel like there's a lot just changing in this space view. Went through this. Kind of thing with the uh, components versus whatever the other one, whatever they term the other one. uh, op or Composition options, that's what it is in view.

Yeah. Like I, so I think that, that [00:06:00] kind of, maybe I. Scared some people are away or at least made it a little bit difficult for new devs to get into view at the time. Cuz like they'd Google stuff and it like would maybe be relevant to what they were trying to do. Maybe they wouldn't based on what they were using.

I had of a hunch a lot of people when they were first getting involved, didn't even really know what they were using. Do you feel like we're in that state with react now or do you think that the cut over's been cleaner? Cuz like hooks were out for a while then the docks have changed and it's been smoother.

Tru: So yeah, I'm gonna be honest, when I was first learning hooks, I had Jordan who was supposed to join us. He helped me through it. So I had like a tutor next to me. So that was really nice. But apart from that, I did find it really hard to find all the information I would need to learn properly.

And the docs are really good. The new beta docs, I remember reading them when they were the beta ones and they help a lot. Like even I use use Effect so much now, like I understand it a lot more, but it helped me understand it at a very I. Like throughout, like just, knowing it from the bottom up and it's written [00:07:00] really well and they have examples that like demonstrate specific parts of different hooks and that was also super useful to actually see the code and see how it executes.

And there's the thing with the double render and dev mode, all that, like it shows all that. So it's not confusing. So I really like the new docs. I'm really glad they have those because yeah, prior to that it was just like trying to find resources from all over. I remember like what Medium articles or something.

Just anything that would say something. But yeah, so I, I really think that I love the new push to like more educational content. I think that's really useful for people. Yeah,

Noel: Yeah, for sure. do you think it's easier for people to get into React now or do you think it was easier five years ago when you were getting into it?

Tru: I. Don't, honestly, I would say it's easier now. I just think there's so much more out there for people to use to learn. There's so many more video courses. Free ones too lot more like blogs, lot more. I don't know. There's just so much that I see on Twitter. There's People posting their new react course every other week.

So I feel like it's a really good [00:08:00] time to start learning. Back then, I don't even remember, I'm also like more involved in the space, so maybe that's why I'm maybe biased towards seeing a lot more of this. But for me it feels like it's still it's easier now. That's what I would say. Yeah.

Noel: Yeah. Yeah. I think it can be hard to step out, once you're so far in, it's I I

Tru: I know, right?

It's, yeah.

Noel: The perspective is hard. I guess so, yeah. Are you, do you find yourself using React basically exclusively as a front end framework whenever you're like, starting new projects? Or if happen to be starting projects anymore or have you branched out at all and then come back to React or, what's that?

What's that look like for you? 

Tru: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So work mostly um, it's been React. One thing was at Square, we actually were a Ruby on Rails application and we had a templating system to do all the front end. So one of the projects I was on at Square was to figure out like, If we should shift towards a front-end framework, a JavaScript front-end framework, and not rely on Ruby on Rails.

So that was a cool project. I got to do research into like performance of things, like they wanted Preact or something versus React, but so Preact uh, spelt and so we ended up using spelt there. [00:09:00] So that was really cool to like start a whole spell project at a big company like Square. But , most of the time I kind of default to react mostly because I don't wanna focus on learning.

I kind of wanna focus on building and it's just what I'm used to. So that's why I pick it. But today I was actually streaming and I looked at solid JS code. That was really cool. I think it's like really fun to. Look at and learn new frameworks in small contexts. If you're working on small projects that don't really need to see production, like I think it's fine to explore and have fun.

But yeah, most of the time I've been defaulting to react. I think there's use cases though, for spec specific, other frameworks, but Yeah. Or libraries.

Noel: Solids an interesting one, to call out. We've had Ryan. Coronado, I think I'm saying that right on a few times. He's always super fun to talk to a lot of thoughts and opinions and it's fun. And I'm kinda the same way though. When I'm starting a new project, if I know it's gonna be like more of a toy app, I'm almost more tempted to like, reach for something new that I haven't done.

Cuz I have a path for the difficult bit of this. I know how it's gonna work. So my learning part of this [00:10:00] experience. It could be playing with a new framework that's how I get those figured out and I, I learn the most effectively. But I'm, curious then, , when you go into these new frameworks and are exploring them, are you, are you typically looking at them like from the lens of like, when would I recommend this to someone versus recommend this to somebody else?

Or are you purely looking at like The practicality, like the application of that framework to get work done.

Tru: Yeah I'm such a bad person to answer this question. For me, it's mostly just like for fun. I don't really have a need to recommend it to people. I think like for when I stream, it's mostly for me to learn. And see what use cases I could do. So further down the line, right? So I use Astro once and I was like, oh, Astro would be really cool for something like a portfolio website, something that's very small, minimal, and I don't , need something like React to do that.

And I can also write components in React for it if I want, stuff like that. And I think y yeah, I just, I think people like Jordan, who are tech leads, what they do is they like look through all these different frameworks and they wanna pick for their company. Like they're building like some [00:11:00] app.

They're like, what do we wanna choose for this? They'll look at all the other different things like how the dev. Stuff. Experience would be like working in these frameworks. For selt I did a little bit of in-depth, look into that too, to see how they use things like slots and how 

Noel: it's hard not to. It's felt like Felt is so opinionated. You have to, yeah.

Tru: exactly.

Exactly. But like today, when I was looking at solid, it was just for fun and it was like wacky. There was a part where there was like switch blocks and inside you have like the matching cases. I was like, this is so different than what I'm used to. So it's just really cool to like just see 

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I know you mentioned before like some of the things you talk about that help you steer people one way or the other, the things that you tell them to make that [00:12:00] decision on when someone new or newer is coming into Web w Are there like an experience dev.

Not, they haven't been in like the front end space, or they're like getting into Dev for the first time and this is how they're doing it. Do you almost always exclusively recommend React to them, or are there cases where you don't?

Tru: I was asked this question during the talk too, is there like places where React kind of fails and that you'd recommend something else? And I really couldn't think of anything specific. For me, yeah, I've mostly been. Recommending React. It's just, I've been actually previously I think a lot of when I was first streaming, I learned spelt and I really like spelt, so I was recommending spelt for new people too, because it just felt like less overhead than React.

Sometimes it's like less code to look at. So I thought maybe that'd be a thing, but with the amount of a lot of people asking me, are people trying to find jobs? And so with the amount of React jobs out there, it just seems the right answer to give is to start with the react and then you know, if you have time to learn something else.

But yeah, I [00:13:00] think like I have been defaulting to react, I think.

Noel: Yeah. No, that's okay. I feel like if the goal is for people to get hired, is there a reason you don't point them towards Angular anymore? Cause I feel like there's still a lot of like angular jobs out there and it's probably one of those, if you want the shortest path on a front end to a high paying front end web, like Angular might be the quickest one.

Is there a reason that you still, 

I

dunno, don't recommend an angular? 

Tru: yeah, I think it's just the circle that I'm in and I actually have never written Angular, so I don't feel confident in recommending something I haven't really written. And view too, I just said a little bit. But yeah, yeah, I think it's hard for me to , feel confident in recommending stuff.

I'm not super. Confident that I've written and Tim confident. So I think, yeah, that's probably why I default to react. I didn't realize there's, are there really that many Angular jobs? I know they have their new version coming out and all that,

Noel: I think so I'd have to go look at, I know one of the like stack overflows state of the whatever dev ecosystem thing, but I think it's one of those where for a long time, like , people have like not been wanting to be angular devs, but there's still a lot of code out there that like [00:14:00] needs written.

I haven't used Angular in a long time either, so I can't really speak to like, How nice it is to write Angular anymore. I'm sure there's people listening. There're like, new angular is great. Like people are just confused. So I, I don't have a, a super strong pulse, but I think historically anyway that was a thing was always like there's tons of angular jobs out there that people were just not wanting to write Angular.

So they were sat open. Yeah. So we touched on like type script and its impact on react in particular. Is there something that you found in that relationship that you have found like very. Powerful or kinda leads you to recommending React in particular four type script.

Tru: Yeah, the. Js, I don't know how to word this, but like J S X with all the type completions for everything is like insane. So like, just defining types for your props and then your components. Taking those props and just having all the auto complete work properly. And then just having it, like when you import a component, just having all the props that are like not optional, show up like that you have to fill in super useful for when you're, it helps you [00:15:00] not write as many bugs.

So I think that's, One of the biggest things. I, when I yeah I would recommend people like to learn type script and react like con, like at the same time concurrently. I think it's just an easy I just think it makes your life better in the long run. 

Noel: Yeah.

so as a person that kind of focuses on this, like more like education adjacent space I think I underst I understand that recommendation, but part of me is also it feels like another thing that people like would have to worry about new. And it's like a lot of times, even me having spun up.

10 projects this year, and like I know all the common pitfalls of type script and stuff. There's still I'll get some weird type error. I'll be like, what's, what is happening here? And there's some weird, like project or a package of importing has some weird type declaration.

I've gotta do a null check eight layers deep and I don't know, something I didn't put together. Is there I guess do you feel that at all? Do you think that's a, there are pitfalls with type script that new devs might fall into? And if so, why? Like, how do you. Do you still think it's [00:16:00] worth it, despite some of those traps?

Tru: Yeah I'm gonna be, I see those errors all the time too, and I'm like, I don't know what's going on either. And you just click any, or you just do like a note or something? Just get rid of it. Yeah. Or do the Ts ignore or whatever. But yeah, I get that cuz I feel like I was given the advice to learn TypeScript with React.

And it's I'm not great at either of them because there's just a lot to wear at the same time. And for type script, I don't feel like I'm advanced at all. I feel like I'm very like surface level, so I understand types and the type system and oh, this should look like this object. Like I get that part of it.

So I think that's like a pitfall is sometimes when you're learning two things at the same time, you don't go too in depth on something. And so when you get errors like this, Or you're doing like interviews and type script and , you can't understand what's going on with the output message that you're getting.

It's just, it's stressful. And I, I get that. But I don't think it happens enough. And I think they're mostly Googleable to like, say that it's fine to, I just [00:17:00] feel like there's more downfalls with just using JavaScript. And then not knowing what's happening with your code when you're show, like compiling it.

I think it's just better to get that in your ID than, deal with all that. So I would say like the trade off is just I yeah. That's just in my opinion, but

Noel: No I think that's like completely valid. I feel like there's, yeah, like you have weird runtime errors that you're like trying to debug in the browser, and those can also not be super easy to figure out. Yeah, so I think it's there. I guess that segues me nicely into. So there's a lot of ways that one could be doing React development now, right?

You could be deploying just like a plane React app. It's not doing any, any fantasy SSR stuff, like all the way to like these crazy hybrid like cloud apps that automatically just deploy. How do you recommend people get into React development? Like, where do they start now?

Tru: Yeah., there's a lot, like you mentioned, I really like using ve VE is like super easy, helps you set up everything and it's Crate [00:18:00] React app with all those other dependencies that are mixed in with Crate React app. And I really like it. And they have a really great website.

It just outlines exactly what steps to do. And yeah, that's probably what I'd recommend. Uh, Next JS is also really good too, just because the amount of resources that they have available and I think like the dev docs for React kind of show what they recommend in terms of how to start with the React project too.

Those are the two options that I've done the most. And yeah, next I usually pull in when I'm trying to do like server side things. And then V is mostly for like fun websites that I just wanna build that are like static mostly, not too much stuff going on there, but yeah, those are the two that I think that are

Noel: Good. Yeah. Are you usually just using like the CLIs for next when you're spinning of a project there and then you can just do the 

one line deploy 

Tru: exactly. Next has so much built into it too. And they have so many videos, so you could just learn so much there. So yeah, highly

Noel: Yeah. Yeah, I do. Again, I feel like that's another one though, where it's, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, [00:19:00] the ecosystem was just not as uh, there wasn't as many options. So there was like less of a burden of choice on new people to figure or even like, experienced as I feel like even now I'm sitting down, I'm like trying to come up with just a systems architecture for a basic web app, and I'm like I could do this, or I could do this and this, or like this could be in a function that then could hand something off and deploy it.

Which is it's good. We have all these tools that make our lives easier, but I, there is a bit of a. Burden, I think in figuring out what the correct abstractions are a lot

Tru: Yeah, and like all this like data fetching stuff. Now do you do it on the server? Do you do it on your client? Like how much do you have on your server versus the client and all this? Where is your Java script? Who knows? So

Noel: Yeah. Like where is this even running? Do you have to have extra checks for all these things? Yeah. Yeah, we've talked about that with lots of different guess. And it's I think that is a problem that people feel, and I think a lot of the frameworks are trying to like abstract that away, but it's just hard because there are so many cases where it's this does always need to happen on the server, or this does need to always happen on the client.

So it,[00:20:00] we're not totally there yet, but I think it's getting better.

Um, 

Tru: it's hard. There's a trade off between like really opinionated and not opinionated, and you gotta find the right balance for users too. So it's difficult. Yeah.

Noel: Yeah. I guess , overall, , do you think that reacts popularity as like a ratio of, all front end based work is going up, or do you think it's going down?

Tru: Oh man, I have no idea. I don't even know how I would look at this, like the NPM downloads or 

something, but I think, Yeah, I think it's going up. I think there's more developers and I think a lot more new developers reach to things. Like react because of its big ecosystem and the amount of resources available with it.

So I think it's going up, but I think everything is also going up. So maybe like you want the ratio, right? The issue is I see a lot of people using other things. So I've seen like a lot of my friends go for things like solid and go for things like spell and they're also providing a lot of tools like Pel Kit and things like that help with part.

So [00:21:00] I don't know.

Noel: We could go look at the like stack overflow, state of stack over whatever in 2022 and get some numbers, but I feel like even so I was looking at those, it's been a while. I need to go look again, but I'm pretty sure at the time, like the tools that re devs were most excited about, like React was still the top one as a ratio.

I'm sure it's probably decreased, but like, How does that translate to what people are using day to day? Who knows? It seems like there's still a lot of energy around React, so

it's 

Tru: And , dance tweets all the time, you know, it's very react server components, all that. So it's very like everyone working there is excited and so 

it's fun. 

Noel: I do think it begs the question. I feel like we are always asking, and maybe this is just a something that's evolved out of this.

Pattern that we're all used to people that have been in this space for a while of like the cycle of front end frameworks coming in and out of popularity and everyone I think is waiting, is that cycle gonna continue here or is react gonna have enough, I don't know, momentum, inertia, wind in it, sail, good development is happening around it where this like [00:22:00] the cycle might break and we'll be getting into some new form of stability.

If you had to make a prediction there, do you think that is the case or is something potentially going to, eclipse reacts popularity?

Tru: Yeah, , it'd be really hard, I think every big company that I've seen has used React or Ruby on Rails, but like most of the time it's been react. I don't know. Because the amount of activation energy it requires for a company like Discord to switch from react to another framework is insane.

The amount of stuff that would have to be rewritten it's crazy how much time that would take, so I can't imagine it. Eclipsing any of the old kind of not like legacy but like older code, but maybe in the, with new startups coming out and different things like different companies spinning up.

Maybe they use something else and maybe something overtakes. But I don't see it happening anytime soon. React has meta behind it, which is a big company and I think that just. Means [00:23:00] it'll, it gives it a lot of boost and, it allows people like to develop their, like it's not something open source that kind of needs I don't know, it, it has money, right?

So that's,

Noel: Yeah.

Tru: I'm sure the other ones have money too, but there's money behind meta and But yeah, I don't think I see other frameworks also rising in popularity and kind of building like stuff around them. Like Spelts I think is great. It's growing and I think that's really fun. But 

I can't think of people using spelt more than React right now. what, what, What are your thoughts about it? Do you think something will take it?

Noel: I'm hesitant to predict. It's interesting though. You bring up like Discords massive code base in React and I feel like that, that calls back to my point before about there's a lot of angular jobs. Cause I feel like this happened, right? There are huge angular code bases.

Devs need to maintain them. That's why this happens. But I have no idea it's so hard to say. It feels like we're settling into a little more stability here

So I would have to say, I don't know if it'll always react, it'll always be the most popular, but I don't think we'll see these kind of spikes and dips with the cadence and the [00:24:00] severity that we've seen historically.

And that's about as far as I'm willing to

Tru: That's, you don't,

Noel: Yeah. Yeah.

Tru: also has React Native for example too, right? So that's huge. Discord use is React native for the mobile app. So it's like how do you go step away from React for the web app, yeah, 

Noel: a huge, it's a huge ask, and I don't think it's, unreasonable to say like there will be one eventually that it kinda is just the de facto, like I think that is a possible future.

Yeah. Yeah. Could or not, we could be totally wrong.

But I guess that then, is there anything in particular in React that you think makes it a little more sticky, gives it a little bit more staying power like over the angular of old or like. just using jQuery, what about React is giving us the, because it's already had, I would say, like a longer timeline of success.

Do you think that there's kind of anything in particular there?

Tru: Yeah I can talk about what I might think would be, cuz I'm not too sure about Angular or anything cause I didn't work uh, with those. But reactors a really cool, like , they have [00:25:00] RSCs right? For anything new that they're announcing. And it's cool. You can see new features that they're planning on doing and the people who work.

On Reactor, very vocal about the changes. And they talk online, they do podcasts, they do, videos, all this. So there's like a lot of content around React. And it feels like I, every week or every other week, there's like new stuff that happens. There's also a bunch of packages, there's a bunch of meta frameworks built around something like React.

So Next JS is all base and React. There's like remix all of that. They're, they're, They're like whole companies, right? For sells. Like one of the big things is Next js, right? That helped boost reacts popularity and usage as well. Yeah, and a great community. I mean there's so many like Discord things specifically for React.

There's React Summit, there's all these conferences for it. And I think just, I don't know how it was prior, but I think that's boosting react a lot. But I think those are the big things that are gonna make it stick for a lot longer too.

Noel: Yeah.

I mean I think community and like willingness to [00:26:00] evolve are like, those are good enough reasons or as good a reasons as any. Is there anything that you're. Either in that vein or more technically specific or really anywhere that you're hoping for in the future? Of react.

Tru: Yeah, I like all, like a couple of new updates that they're doing are super cool. React 18 has the batching stuff with their like state updates, which is so like That's awesome. That's like a good performance. Change, or update cuz you don't wanna re-render every time. So that's really cool.

React server side components are gonna be really interesting, so I'm curious to see how that's gonna work. I'm excited to try that out too. That'll probably help a lot with performance as well cuz you won't have too much JavaScript on the client, so that'll be great. Suspense is really cool.

I use suspense for something concurrent mode.

Um, a lot of cool new features that I think. Are going in the right direction. So that'll be fun.

Noel: Is there anything else you wanted to talk about or anything else you're kinda just excited for more broadly? Not in React, kinda in, in the future coming up?

Tru: Yeah, , [00:27:00] one of the things we mentioned in our talk is like FOMO driven development kind of thing, cuz there's so many different frameworks and stuff that are out and everyone's kind of like, once it's announced, you're like, I have to try it out and I have to use that for something. And trying not to get too excited about it for, you know, but then also it's fine to be excited about it.

It's like kind of the double end of it. It's really cool how many opinions and different solutions there are for front end development. But it's also scary cuz it feels like, I've been in the space for a while, but it feels like I constantly have to keep learning and keep up to date with all of these things.

And so sometimes it feels overwhelming, but it's also really cool to see how many people are excited about it and wanna offer like different solutions to things that already exist. Like today, just learning about how solid works. I was like, this is kind of cool and wacky. I don't know if I'd use this, but I wanna like look through it more and see if it's something that I wanna try out in the future.

So it's. It's I don't know. I'm feeling both of the extremes. It's stressing me out, but I'm also excited. So I don't know. [00:28:00] But yeah, I think I tried to keep our talk too very like I mentioned, not super one-sided to try to make it very, how you should approach thinking about this.

I feel like people want me to say yes or no. So it was a little stressful. I think we said maybe in our talk, yeah,

Noel: no, I was like I think people are a little bit more nuanced in general if it feels less tribal than it did, I don't know, again, like five years ago, for better or worse, people just seem more like, eh, there's all this cool stuff everyone's working on it. It just seems like a more positive energy.

So I think that that's felt Cool. I feel like we covered a lot in 20 minutes or so there. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me. Sure. It's been a pleasure.

Tru: of course. Thank you so much for having me. It's great talking with you. Always