Kevin Jones 0:04 This is actually the second time in my life, I've experienced the pandemic, I lived in Asia during the H1N1 pandemic, I actually contracted H1N1. And so I contracted the disease, it wasn't the most fun I've ever had. But I got over it in a week, it was not a big deal for me. But what I did actually learn a lot was how pandemics move across geographies and the effects of quarantine. Never, ever thought I would use that knowledge again. I thought that was just one of those experiences. But like you said, fast forward 10 years later, I'm at Rackspace. January, actually December, we started to see reports of COVID-19 in China. We immediately jumped on this at Rackspace. My antenna was up already. I was very concerned. And, we actually started work-from-home testing in different locations around Rackspace, around the world. We actually started that in January. Jeff DeVerter 1:00 Hey everybody, Jeff DeVerter with Cloud Talk here. The person you just heard is Kevin Jones, the CEO of Rackspace, telling me the story of how this is actually the second pandemic that he's experienced. Now, most of the conversations that we have here on Cloud Talk are technology focused. Well, today's is more of a leadership conversation. It's how Kevin and his own leadership team have led Rackspace, his employees and their customers through the COVID-19 pandemic. I hope you enjoy it. As a reminder, stick around once it's over. I've got some information for you, as well as a preview into our next episode. Welcome to Cloud Talk. Intro 1:51 Welcome to Cloud Talk. Here's your host, Jeff DeVerter. Jeff DeVerter 1:56 Well, I've been looking forward to recording this episode for a little while. My name is Jeff DeVerter, and the host of Cloud Talk, and also the CTO of our Solutions team at Rackspace. Now today, I'm joined by Rackspace is CEO Kevin Jones. Kevin, welcome. Kevin Jones 2:12 Thank you, Jeff. Great to be here. Jeff DeVerter 2:15 Now, we're here today to talk about how Rackspace has responded to COVID-19. And ultimately, how you and the team have led us through this, literally this crisis. But before we get into some of those details, I feel like it's important for us to set the stage on how we got here. So first of all, I think it starts with how you got here. And I ask this question. So you and I have known each other now for about five months. And the first time, I met you was sitting in your office getting interviewed by you. And I learned two things that day. I learned never show up to an interview without having all of your work history on your resume. I have really the most, what I thought to be the most pertinent. I've always been challenged over the years, 'Hey, keep that resume small. Let's get it all on one page.' Well, I sat there in front of you and didn't have it all on there. So we spent the majority of our time, me just recounting everything and you wrote it all down. And I learned in that meeting that details matter. And they matter a lot to you. And I've seen that, now that I've been working with you for the past five months. And that's been really interesting, But with that as sort of a backdrop, maybe you can kind of tell us a bit of the story on how you got here to Rackspace. Some of your work, some of your experiences. How did you get here? Kevin Jones 3:29 Well, thanks Jeff. By the way, you did great in that interview. Obviously, you got the job and you did fantastically well. I am a details person and I try to be thorough, and we're delighted to have you on the team. So thank you for coming back to Rackspace. Jeff DeVerter 3:45 Absolutely. Kevin Jones 3:47 So, in terms of my background. I've been in the IT services industry for 30 years now. I started out at this company called Electronic Data Systems, which actually invented the IT services industry in the 1960s. And after being at Electronic Data Systems for about 20 years, I was with a variety of other technology services companies, Hewlett Packard, Hewlett Packard Enterprise. I was at Dell, for about three years. I started up Dell's cloud computing services business, was also running the Americas for DXC Technologies. And all throughout my history I competed against Rackspace. And I admired the company from afar and was amazed at how incredible the customer loyalty was for Rackspace. And it came down to, at the time, it was called Fanatical Support. Jeff DeVerter 4:43 Yep. Kevin Jones 4:44 It's now evolved to Fanatical Customer Experience and kind of that core value of putting the customer at the center of everything a company does, is very close to my own personal belief system. Jeff DeVerter 4:59 Right. Kevin Jones 4:59 So when the opportunity came up to join Rackspace, I jumped at it. Jeff DeVerter 5:03 Awesome. When you came here, and you've been a Racker now, as we call ourselves, for a year. Congratulations on that. Kevin Jones 5:09 Thank you. Jeff DeVerter 5:10 Which is about seven years in Racker years? Kevin Jones 5:12 Right? Jeff DeVerter 5:13 So, you come to Rackspace. The company is about 20 years old. You inherit this Fanatical Support, Fanatical Experience thing, a bunch of passionate Rackers. You inherit a tonne of customers, some of them delighted, some of them on a different part of the scale. What are some of the things that you did to start to make sense of it? So that you could as a detail oriented person start to compartmentalize some of this work so that you could... you were hired, ultimately, to drive outcomes for our owners? And so, what did you do in those first few months? Kevin Jones 5:43 Yeah, thanks, Jeff. First of all, my view is that, when you start a new job. It's really about the first hundred hours. Not the first hundred days, a lot of people don't talk about their hundred day or their 90 day plan. To me, it's about the first hundred hours. In order to prepare and have a great first hundred hours, really my work started way before I joined the company. And I did a couple of hundred hours of research on Rackspace, its strategy. Obviously, I talked to the Rackspace board quite a bit, Apollo and other board members. And the other thing that I did is, I tried really hard to learn about the culture of Rackspace. I knew it a little bit from two decades of being in the market after Rackspace was founded. But I wanted to deeply understand it, so that I could protect the culture. So what I did is, I reached out to Graham Weston, who was the co founder of Rackspace and ran the company for a long time during its high period of growth, read Graham's book. And that gave me a lot of tips about the culture of the company. So, that when I did come into the company, I knew there were major aspects of Rackspace's history and culture, I wanted to double down on. Fanatical Customer Experience was one of them. Some other ones were all of the work that we do around Racker experience and Best Place to Work. I wanted to actually, not just maintain that, but take that to the next level, because I really think at the end of the day, our Rackers, and our people are, by far the most important part of the company. So double-down on Fanatical Customer Experience, double down on Best Place to Work, and then really just help the company grow. Jeff DeVerter 7:33 And one of the things, we hear this phrase a lot, and it was a new one to me when I came back. And that's the phrase management system. And we talked about you being a details oriented person. But over your career, you have sort of put this plan in place for how you deal with these sorts of things. So maybe you could just unpack that a little bit? Kevin Jones 7:51 Absolutely. Jeff, the management system is key, I'm very passionate about the management system. And, in case you're not familiar with it, it is really just the cadence of meetings, the measurements, and how we interlock and make decisions as a team. It's really not much more complicated than that. But it is very intense. We have a series of very detail oriented metrics that we follow, and we get the whole team together to kind of review progress in the management system. And it could be on the sales part of the business. It could be on the operational part of the business. It could be in some of the support functions of the business, customer feedback, and how that's going, solution development. It's in all parts of the company that we've got this cadence of meetings, key performance indicators that we manage, and then we interlock. So the management system brings people from all over the company together. Because really, when you're driving cross organizational change, you have to have representation from everyone, and all different groups. That's really what the management system does, it brings it all together, it gets everybody collaborating, it gets everybody interlocked. And it's also the way that we resolve conflict, conflict is natural. And that's where we handle variances of opinions, which are very important to get to the bottom of. So, all that together is the management system. And I think, it's been very successful here at Rackspace. Jeff DeVerter 9:19 It's been super successful, especially in what I've seen in the past five months. Now, when you take someone, you come into this company with all of this history. And being somebody who's got about 10 years of experience here. I've never met a group of individuals who wanted to win so bad. That is, until I met you, and you take that to a new level. You take that to a level that in the meetings I've been in, and a number doesn't look like it's supposed to look. Or a trend isn't where it was supposed to be. Or even a plan doesn't look quite on. I mean, the spidey senses go up and you're a dog with a bone and you head down in and you're passionate. It's not just... what I've seen is, it's not just about how do I pull that out of there? But it's because it threatens what you're here to do, it threatens Rackspace's future. And at first, it sort of freaked me out. Because I was really kind of concerned to go into meetings because you got really intense about some stuff. But what I've come to realize is, it's because you're so passionate about winning and Rackspace itself winning. Kevin Jones 10:14 That's right. And I am definitely like the team. I'm all in. And when I'm all in, I'm going to go 100% every hour of every day. And, that's what you see in these management system meetings is, an intensity, not just from me, but from the rest of the team. Because we are very passionate about making sure Rackspace is successful, and making sure that we return Rackspace to greatness, and fulfill our absolute full potential in the market. And it's fun, we actually have a blast, because we are winning and we don't like to lose even one deal. We want to win every single deal. And we put detailed plans in place to do that. And a combination of that kind of team spirit that you see there, that kind of winning attitude that intensity. And as you mentioned before, I didn't want to overlook this, I think you made a great point. The detail orientation is very important. The folks on my team are extremely detail oriented, details matter. That's how you really get to the root cause of issues. My view is, these management system meetings that you see, let's get all the problems out on the table so that we can resolve them. That's why we have jobs because there are problems. Yes, customers actually hire us to solve problems. So it's not a big deal. Let's just get them out on the table. And then let's go through step-by-step and be very methodical about what we're going to do to fix it. And when we come back together for the next meeting, everything that we agreed to do, we need to make sure that was done. Jeff DeVerter 11:57 Exactly. And, it's that kind of follow-up is super impressive. So with that as a backdrop, here comes 2020. You've come to the company, after this 30 year career, you inherited this company that had a period of greatness. And now. we're in a period, well, we're in a period of flux, of change. You've pulled all that together, all of our company metrics. We're just all pointing north, which is where we want them to be. And then January shows up, and we start to see these tremors. These tremors of this thing called COVID-19. And what it could be. Now Rackspace is a global company, you've got people reporting to you from around the company. How did that start? When did you start to see that this was a thing? And a thing that potentially could threaten the world of course, but what Rackspace was trying to do? Kevin Jones 12:43 Great question. And a pandemic like this is very unusual. It's difficult to plan for? It's difficult but not impossible to plan for? When I look at COVID-19. But just take a little bit of a step back. This is actually the second time in my life, I've experienced a pandemic. Jeff DeVerter 13:04 Really? Kevin Jones 13:05 Yes. So just to tell you a little story. I actually lived in Asia ten years ago, when I was running the Asia Pacific in Japan business for HP services. I lived in Asia during the H191 pandemic, that was swine flu. Jeff DeVerter 13:21 Incredible. Kevin Jones 13:23 I actually contracted H191. I contracted the disease, wasn't the most fun I've ever had. But I got over it in a week. It was not a big deal for me. But what I did actually learn was how pandemics move across geographies and the effects of quarantine. So I learned a lot about that. Never, ever thought I would use that knowledge again. I thought that was just one of those experiences. But like you said, fast forward 10 years later, I'm at Rackspace. January, actually December, we started to see reports of COVID-19 in China. And then we immediately jumped on this at Rackspace. My antenna was up already. I was very concerned about this. Jeff DeVerter 14:05 Details matter. Kevin Jones 14:06 Yeah, exactly. And so, we actually started work from home testing in different locations around Rackspace, around the world. We actually started that in January. So that we had to make sure that our systems would operate. If we did have to go, work-from-home fully, or almost fully. We had to make sure we can still run the business, right? So, we started testing this really early, very proactive about it. So by the time that early March came, we were ready to pull the trigger and go forward from home, with the exception of just some very critical frontline Rackers that continue to do a great job in our data centers, etc. So we're ready to go. I was pleased that we acted early. And the transition was fantastic. It was amazing. Jeff DeVerter 14:54 What are the results? Kevin Jones 14:55 Look, the results were great. Our Rackspace team was so agile. And we went to work-from-home without a hitch, 125,000 customers no disruption to their operations whatsoever. Jeff DeVerter 15:08 Wow. Kevin Jones 15:09 All of our technology, all of our systems work brilliantly. And our Rackers were amazing in their ability to transition to really a whole new business model. Complete work, it was just fantastic. And the thing that I wanted to make sure was that we managed this company with discipline, that we did it calmly, and we did it thoughtfully. That was why we put this five point management system in place during COVID-19. And we continue to manage the company like this today. Jeff DeVerter 15:40 So actually, what you've done is enhanced the existing management system with a crisis management system. Kevin Jones 15:46 That's right, exactly. Jeff DeVerter 15:47 What is that? What are the hallmarks of it? What are those five points? Kevin Jones 15:50 Yeah, let's just kind of go through it. So, basically, what we did is, I said. 'We need to make sure that, we've got this crisis level management system. We want to be alert, and we don't want to be surprised by anything.' We basically decided what are the top priorities for the company in handling this crisis. Number one, by far is Racker Wellness. So making sure that our Rackers stay safe and healthy, was by far the number one priority. So that was our first part of the COVID-19 management system, we put Holly Wyndham in charge as our Chief People Officer. Operational excellence was number two, making sure our customers businesses continue to operate. Our CEO Subroto is in charge of that part of the management system. Customer outreach, this is a huge opportunity for us to reach out to customers, to make sure they knew they were going to be okay. To make sure they knew that Rackspace is still open for business, we're still operating. So, customer outreach was really split amongst our three regional leaders. Financial stress testing, and this is all about making sure that, we weren't sure exactly what customers impacts were going to be to their business. So we needed to make sure that we stayed on top of that. Dustin Semach our CFO is in charge of financial stress testing. And this basically means we monitor the situation every day. We monitor the cash coming into the company, monitor the customer's business situation, so we can take any revenue or expense actions, if necessary. And then the final one was communications. So communications is very important. My goal was to over communicate during this time. We set up the weekly manager calls, we did all employee, all Racker calls, chats, emails, videos. Amanda, our Chief Marketing Officers was in charge of that. Jeff DeVerter 17:41 Incredible. So first of all, the management system that was in place. It was just running the company but flexible enough to be able to add additional layers when situations like this should occur. Because like you said, they can happen and you can plan for them. Kevin Jones 17:53 Yes, absolutely. I'm not a big fan of surprises. Jeff DeVerter 17:57 I've learned. Kevin Jones 17:58 Not a big fan of surprises. And, I think if you are thoughtful and you do plan. And you are monitoring the environment, you can react and you can be disciplined and thoughtful about the response. Jeff DeVerter 18:11 Incredible. So, a company like an individual has a place in the community. And of course, a company's behavior is going to be a reflection of its leaders as it goes out. Now Rackspace has a history of being very involved from a community perspective. A foundation called the Rack Gives Back foundation, which is intended to allow the company and its employees to be able to give back to the community. But you expanded that a little bit during this time with a way to help from a COVID perspective and then lead as a company. Tell us a little bit about that. Kevin Jones 18:44 Absolutely. This is a hallmark of the culture of the company. Something that I mentioned earlier that I wanted to make sure we double down on. And I'm very pleased with the work we've done here. We can always do more, and we continue to work to get better every day. But first of all, in terms of Racker Wellness, we instituted the Racker Wellness day early on. I realized that this working-from-home situation was although very efficient, is also very intense. And my team and I talked about this a lot. I've got a great, leadership team. And we were definitely getting feedback that we need to make sure that we give breaks and that folks can de-stress. So we implemented this Racker Wellness day and we're gonna keep doing that because it's a different time and we have to make sure that we take care of our Rackers and that we don't face burnout. Jeff DeVerter 19:41 Yeah, back to the whole details thing. Even emails that are coming from Holly, to remind us to go take lunch, to stand up every now and again. Because in the days of working in an office, at least you get a little walk-time down to get a coffee or walk-time to the next meeting. Here we just sit in front of Zoom calls which can feel like all day long. Kevin Jones 20:00 Exactly, and just left to our own devices. We all just sit in these chairs for like 14 hours and not move. And that's not good, we can't do that. That's why we implemented these guidelines. We need our Rackers to be able to have a lunch break. We need to work on 20 minute meetings, instead of 30 minute meetings, 50 minute means instead of 60 minute meetings. You can have these breaks to take, so you can kind of clear your head or go catch up on email or whatever it is that you need to do. We're continuing to refine that. And we'll continue to work on that. The other thing, that I was very insistent on was trying to get non-surgical masks out to Rackers and families. Holly and Kelly from our HR team did an amazing job, working and found masks and were able to send those out to Rackers to use for their families and themselves. And we also donated back, to your other point, we donated some of those masks to local communities, particularly in areas where we've got a large presence. We announced a COVID-19 donation drive. And that was very successful, as well. It's another part of our community giving back. So, that's what we've done so far, work-in-progress though, we're still going to do more. Jeff DeVerter 21:14 You can always do more tomorrow. News today, when I came back to Rackspace, a friend of mine had posted something on Facebook. And I don't often print and hang up at my desk. But I did print it and hang it at my desk, and it said, 'Success is never owned, it's rented. And the rent is due every day.' And, it's led me to have a good day, but not count on that good day, the next day. Kevin Jones 21:35 I love that. I actually think that's a great philosophy. I've got a similar one, what I think about every day, when I wake up is number one, I'm still hungry? I wake up every day hungry, ready to rock and ready to make a difference. So make sure I stay hungry. The other thing that I think about is, if we can just be 1% better every day. Just think about the cumulative impact. To me, this business, it's more of a grind. It's more of a daily grind than it is about - yeah, the massive discovery that changes the world in an instant. To me, this is about every day getting 1% better. If you're American baseball fan, it's about singles, rather than homeruns. So that's really been my philosophy. Jeff DeVerter 22:24 Yeah, I had some when I was much younger. I was out hiking up a mountain with some friends. And we started early in the morning, like pre-dawn, so we could be up there very early in the morning. And it was this combination. What I came to realize was, this combination of every now and again, I like to look up and see where that summit was. So I made sure I was going in the right direction. But the reality was, my eyes were down at every step because you miss a step and it can be pretty detrimental. And if you don't look up every now and again, at where that direction is, then all of a sudden, you're falling off a cliff to the wrong side. Kevin Jones 22:57 Yeah, you can lose your way. You got to do both. Jeff DeVerter 22:59 Yeah. And you made the point, you wake up every day hungry. So during all of this, we've talked a lot about, your history, how you got here, what you and the team have done to lead Rackspace through. But what are you doing individually? How were you kind of leading yourself through the day and making sure that you're getting time and whatnot? Kevin Jones 23:18 It's been very interesting, I've really quite enjoyed it. The first few weeks were quite a transition, I think for not just me, but for a lot of people. From a personal perspective, it's great to be able to focus so much and be able to have so many customer meetings. One of the things that's amazing, I love meeting with customers, and I've been able to kind of double my customer meeting production, because I'm not traveling. So, not in an airport, not running around from office building to an office building. I'll just take yesterday for example, yesterday morning I had six customer meetings, incredible face-to-face, one-on-one, video conference. But I can look our customer in the eye, I can really understand getting a little better, understanding nonverbal communication and verbal communication. But six customer meetings in four hours. I could never do that in non-pandemic time. I'd be traveling, it would take me a week or something to do that. So as a result, if you think about the whole company, then it is kind of taking that approach. I think that's one of the reasons that our results are accelerating so much is because we have adapted and we have done well. Jeff DeVerter 24:35 So the topic comes up a lot. And people use the phrase, I'm not a fan of the phrase return-to-work. Because that would imply we're not working now, return-to-the-office, I think is a better way or the way that I used to sort of do things. And I was having a conversation with a leader over at Salesforce the other day, and he used this phrase, the arms race. He says I wonder when the arms race is going to kick back in? And I asked him what that meant. And he said when when companies are going after a single client. And some are doing the meeting remote. We've opened back up and some are actually going and sitting in the boardroom. And some are then taking them golfing on the weekends. At what point will we get back to that thing? And he said, after 9 11, it was instantaneous, he said after the 2008 financial crisis, it was a slower burn. But we ultimately got back to that type of a scenario. This one's a little more challenging. because we can't look out and say, 'Oh, that's where it's going to end'. Because we don't know when it's going to end. We don't know: second wave, next virus, whatever the thing might be. And we're also ingrained into this right now and having time to perfect it like Rackspace. And what you're doing. You mentioned the six customer calls yesterday. Is what will it look like on the far end? Because I do believe that the way we do business is irreparably changed. Kevin Jones 25:42 I agree, I think business will be changed going forward in terms of, the customer meetings, and this arms race you were talking about. It will be interesting to see kind of what happens. Of course, a lot of us experienced the economic issues as a result of 9 11. And then 2008, financial crisis, etc. This is a lot different than those. But first of all, in terms of reopening Rackspace. If you just kind of take it back to the management system, the first priority of the COVID-19 management system is Racker Wellness. So that's our north star. Racker Wellness is the number one priority of the company. And my team and I are not going to prematurely open our offices. In fact, we are going to be cautious, we're going to be overly cautious and make sure that we do everything we can to keep our Rackers safe and healthy. So, that's really going to guide us. I don't want anybody to feel any pressure to go back in. Because we are going to be very cautious. We've announced that we're continuing work-from-home until at least the end of August. And we'll see how the summer here goes and we'll make a decision closer to that time. But the guiding principle is going to be Racker Wellness. And unless there's a compelling event that would require us to be back. Everything is working quite well, in fact, in some measures better. So there really is no great rush. It is working well. And that's I would say that's an added benefit, even if it weren't working as well, the priority would still be Racker Wellness. Jeff DeVerter 27:19 Fantastic. That's great. You're sort of getting towards the end of our time, anything you want to leave us with Kevin, this is sort of an open mic moment. Kevin Jones 27:29 Well Jeff, I really appreciate talking to you. And I'm very optimistic about Rackspace in its future. I think this last year, my one year, which like you said seems like at least seven years, but it's been great. Even in this virtual world, I continue just to get so much energy from Rackers. I love this Rackspace team, I can't tell you enough. I mean, we actually won a couple of big deals yesterday. I was so excited, I could barely go to sleep. I was running around my house, just thrilled to death with how this team competes, how it wins, how it takes care of customers. The energy that the Rackspace team has is nothing like I've ever seen in 30 years in this business. So I love this company, I love our Rackers. We've got a bright future ahead of us, the market that we're in is fantastic. And actually COVID-19 as terrible as the pandemic's been, one of the good things that's come out of it is actually accelerating customer's journey to the cloud. Jeff DeVerter 28:29 Well it's done that, we have seen that in spades. Kevin Jones 28:32 Yeah, customers want to save money now more than ever. They want to scale-up more than ever. They have security concerns. They want to be more agile. All of that is solved by the cloud. So this is actually helping our business,. We have to continue to be cautious and keep an eye on it. Because some of our customers businesses are not doing great. So we'll continue to monitor it. Everything's not perfect. But I think, in general, if you look at our future, it's very, very bright. Jeff DeVerter 29:00 Yeah. Kevin Jones 29:01 And they're saying 2021 is the year of multicloud. Multicloud is at the center of our solution development strategy in the center of the company strategy. So, we're very well prepared to help customers with multicloud. Jeff DeVerter 29:15 The amazing change that has happened because of the COVID-19. I heard it said last week that that everything that's happening was already going to happen. It just happened a whole lot faster from an adoption perspective. In fact, it was said that 2025 got here awfully quickly. Kevin Jones 29:29 Exactly. Jeff DeVerter 29:30 Well, that's awesome. I'd like to say best of luck in it. But I'm right there with you. So I'm anxious to be and excited to be a helping factor. Go back to the beginning part of the conversation. I did a lot of the same research that you did when you were considering making the move over here. But mine was more, 'Hey, tell me about this Kevin Jones guy? Is he a good guy to go work for?' A lot of people's said, everybody in fact, gave a thumbs-up. So it was a big part of the decision to come over here. So thank you so much for taking time out of your incredible schedule. In fact, you could have had two customer meetings. While you were visiting with me, so I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Just glad you're here. Kevin Jones 30:05 Pleasure. Thanks, Jeff. It's great to be here. Thank you. Jeff DeVerter 30:08 Thanks everybody. This has been Cloud Talk brought to you by Rackspace Solve. Closing 30:14 This has been Cloud Talk. You can find Cloud Talk wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And be sure to check out more content from Rackspace Solve at Solve dot Rackspace dot com. Jeff DeVerter 30:31 Wise words from Kevin Jones, CEO of Rackspace. If we can be just 1% better today than we were yesterday. Think about the cumulative impact on ourselves, our companies and our lives. See, it was incredible to get a view from the top of the company, of the care and attention that Kevin and his team have put into Rackers, their families, and of course, customers. Thank you, Kevin, for taking the time out of your busy schedule. Artificial Intelligence is making significant impacts in our world today. But one area you may not have considered it, is in AI's ability to augment your IT operation. There's an article over on Solve dot Rackspace com which speaks to just this topic. How to enhance your human talent with AI ops. This is just one of the many articles on the site intended to help widen the aperture of the technology information available to you and I want encourage you to go give the article a read and check out any of the others over there that interest you and might help you on your journey to the cloud. Head on over to Solve dot Rackspace dot Com. That's s o l v e dot Rackspace dot com. To learn more. Now let's see what's in store for us in our next episode of Cloud Talk. Arun Singh 31:49 On our network, we have seen online chat systems are about 1.3 X to three times the normal usage, video streaming has nearly doubled. And for news and media outlets about 30 to 60% higher traffic and online gaming is up 20%. So, all of these numbers have trended up. And so the associated enterprises or organizations that are providing the service have to make sure that they have their online experience for the customers to be available reliable, fast, secure, and scalable.