Fr. Steve (00:08):
All right. Welcome back to the Encounter Grow Witness podcast. I'm so blessed to be here with Beth Spizarny. Beth, how are you doing?

Beth (00:15):
I'm doing fine. How about you? Great.

Fr. Steve (00:18):
Great. Doing great. Feel very blessed by all that we've had to experience this Lent and the joy of the Easter season, the joy of sharing the resurrection with the Lord. So just excited for that. And warmer weather is always better.

Beth (00:37):
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Flowers and green grass. Yeah.

Fr. Steve (00:41):
And more sunshine, more daylight to, right? Those kinds of short days. Are you a fan of daylight saving — Daylight Savings Time?

Beth (00:50):
As a mother of young children, I have to say, no, I'm not because the children, it just ruins a week or two of life on both ends. How about you?

Fr. Steve (01:01):
As someone who does not have young children, I like it a lot, but I don't have to deal with all the mess that you have to deal with.

Beth (01:08):
I was trying to explain to them like, well, it's not five o'clock anymore. Now it's four o'clock. And they were like, just baffled by that. They're like, "How long has this been going on?" And I said, your entire life, this is the first time I'm informing you.

Fr. Steve (01:18):
Did you have them read the last couple of books of Augustine's Confessions, where he talks about the nature of time and how relative it is?

Beth (01:27):
Maybe I'll save that for like the next birthday. [laughs]

Fr. Steve (01:30):
Yeah. Just something to think about. Again, your kids are four years old?

Beth (01:35):
I'll put it on their reading list. Four, six, and eight. The eight year old, he might be ready.

Fr. Steve (01:41):
Yeah. To kind of stretch them, right? Stretch their...

Beth (01:44):
I like that idea.

Fr. Steve (01:45):
Yeah. Okay. I will give that considered attention. That's what I hear you saying?

Beth (01:50):
That's what I'm saying.

Fr. Steve (01:52):
Well, kind of being on the backside of Lent here we were talking — it might be fun to just grade our Lengs. Grade how you did this Lent. And so I think, you know, as someone who is fighting against grade inflation, where everyone gets an A, and everyone gets an A minus if you don't get an A, I think my Lent was just, okay, I'm going to give it a C plus. I did spend more time in prayer and I did you know, I talked about not going out to eat during Lent. I did better than I would normally do when it isn't Lent, but I didn't do great. I cheated a number of times when I found an excuse for something else. And so, you know, I would say I got a C plus this Lent. Not fantastic, but I don't think it was an abject failure. So that's where I'm going to go.

Beth (02:46):
I bet you're a tough grader.

Fr. Steve (02:48):
What's that?

Beth (02:48):
I bet you're a tough grader. Huh?

Fr. Steve (02:50):
I am. Yeah, I think so. You know, insert rant here about grade inflation. I think it's a real problem. It's you know, the number one problem America right now is grade inflation. [laughs]

Beth (03:01):
Absolutely. Yeah. I can't think of anything else that would be relevant right now. I can't think of anything. Yeah. Seminary be warned.

Fr. Steve (03:13):
So a C plus is how I'm going to give my Lent. Beth?

Beth (03:16):
Okay. Well, I'm going to give myself a different grade, but different graders, right? So I would give myself a B. Okay. So the fail was with the kids. We had planned to read a piece of scripture every night and like get a sticker, we're going to put it on for every single day. And you know what I found? I don't like having something to do during dinner, aside from eat and make sure other people can eat. So that was kind of a fail. I think we hit it maybe half of the time. But the other main thing we were doing was trying to cut down on our grocery bill, which did kind of lean into our natural frugality. So that was helpful. But what was neat is there was a real solidarity with the poor, right? Like, oh, I go to the pantry and no, there isn't that like, well, okay.

Beth (03:54):
So there isn't that. So we have to come up with something else. So some of the dinners were creative and bummer-ish, but some of them were great, right? There was still food. It just wasn't maybe what you wanted. But then what was cool is every single week, whatever we didn't spend, we then picked a charity and actually donated it. Right? So that was super compelling. So then when I go and I'm like, why aren't there any snacks that I want to eat? I know why.

Fr. Steve (04:17):
This is like, this is like A plus kind of stuff. And I'm the hard grader?

Beth (04:20):
The other part didn't happen. And that decade of the rosary didn't always happen, but don't tell anyone.

Fr. Steve (04:28):
Was there any meal that frugality demanded that will live on past Lent, or were they all, like, hey, we got through this, we're never going to do the, you know Lima beans and gravy?

Beth (04:44):
So we had an extra turkey we baked that — I bought an extra turkey, I got this turkey for four bucks in November, so it was just hanging out. So for the first Sunday we cooked a turkey. Kids were a little confused. They were like, is there pie? I'm like, no, it's still Lent, but we are having a Turkey anyway. So that was a little confusing. But then that turkey lived on, as was intended to do, so I ended up making this turkey broccoli bake, and it just, I don't know, it wasn't — I don't think that one's going to last. I'm ready to say goodbye to that.

Fr. Steve (05:16):
Okay.

Beth (05:16):
I'm sure there was something that was worthy of maintaining and keeping, but not that comes to mind.

Fr. Steve (05:21):
Well, goodbye turkey broccoli bake. Spizarny turkey broccoli bake. You won't see that in an upcoming cookbook, I'm guessing.

Beth (05:31):
I don't think so, no.

Fr. Steve (05:31):
One of the other things we've talked about is just kind of reading stuff. So, Beth, what are you reading these days?

Beth (05:36):
Yeah, so I'm taking a class on biblical — interpretive biblical hermeneutics. So I'm reading about, right now, we're knee deep into the rigins of biblical criticism which is good stuff. My professor said, "Well, this week we're learning about the destroyers of Christian culture. So buckle in." And it is a very, I mean, it's just a wild story, but you see how intellectually we got there, and that's where some of our scholarly work has gotten. So it's been a fascinating read. Dense, but fascinating.

Fr. Steve (06:05):
That's awesome.

Beth (06:07):
Yeah. How about you? What are you reading?

Fr. Steve (06:09):
I'm reading a novel these days called the Berry Giant. It's a — I don't read a lot of fantasy and I don't know how I came across this, actually. I think I just — I saw it in an airport a couple of years ago and it struck me as interesting, but it's a novel from, I don't know, five or six years ago set in in medieval England. And it follows this elderly couple as they journey to find their son, and memory is a big issue of it. So no one is able to have long-term memories there. So they have these faint ideas of where their son is, why they don't see him now, an3d I'm just really enjoying it. It's a kind of a break from my usual reading and I've found it to be a fun, novel to dive into. So I'm enjoying that.

Fr. Steve (06:58):
But we're here not just to talk about the wonderful Lent that Beth had or the cool books that I'm reading. But we're here to talk about our topic that we've been going back and forth about what the title should be. It's essentially about community, but I think it's a richer, fun term to call it "Communio" which has this kind of tradition in the Church to speak about what it means for us to be together. Community can just mean so many different things, and that's why I think to call it community, you know, there's lots of different — like a bridge club can have community or a travel club or a book club or, you know, community can just mean so many things that when we talk about the community of the Church, there's a supernatural depth to it. And I think it's just, yeah, so I'm going to use the term communio to talk about this to give it that depth and to highlight that, but I really wanted to talk about this topic last month. Beth kind of led us with "keeping the most important thing, the most important thing," but I thought community and communio is so important because we're coming out of — hopefully coming out of you know, you keep using this term, the great pause. Is that right?

Beth (08:15):
Yeah. Well, it came from your day of — your Parish Day of Renewal. It was a speaker. Yeah. She's she shared that. Stanz.

Fr. Steve (08:24):
Yeah. Julianne Stanz.

Beth (08:24):
Julianne Stanz. Thank you. Yeah, she shared that. The great pause. Yeah.

Fr. Steve (08:28):
Yeah. Where our lives just stopped being what they normally were and stopped being how we live them. And I think one of the things that suffered a lot in that was friendship, relationship. We see that in mental health, too, the way we're made not to be isolated, you know, in the Garden of Eden, the Lord says about Adam, it's not good for man to be alone. That's not just in a marital way, but that's in way that we're made to be in communion with each other. To share our lives with other people. Let's just talk for a minute about the the time during the pandemic. You know, I live here at Sacred Heart Seminary and all the seminarians went home, but there were like seven or eight priests who stayed here. And it was, in my mind, you know, probably a blessing that lots of other people didn't experience. I talked with a lot of people who lived on their own. And so it was very isolating for us. It was challenging and difficult and a new way to live our lives, but we got to be together and we got to share a meal, share, you know, watch a movie together, pray together, share our lives together. Beth, what was it like, you know, for your family or your pod, as some people talk about it during the time of the pandemic?

Beth (09:48):
Yeah, I think it was challenging. I think not being in relationship with people or being in relationship with people that's only transactional, it's real challenging. So like there's lots of things I'm working on or whatever that, you know — yeah, but then not having those human relationships, the contact just wasting time with each other talking, none of that really happened. We didn't talk to the neighbors. We didn't, yeah, nothing. So it was just us and our kids and, you know, it was very isolating, I think. And definitely, I think, less so than like those who live alone. Right? I was, we were, you know, with our kids, so that's great. But then it's also, it's a different kind of stretching to be with your kids and still have professional responsibilities and ministry things and you know, all of that. But I mean, I think isolation was a problem even well before this, you know? But I think this exacerbated where we were, you know? There was a study in 2017 in Vancouver that found that loneliness and social isolation was the greatest challenge facing our large cities. And I — more than poverty, more than affordable housing, more than jobs, more than any of those things was this social isolation.

Fr. Steve (10:57):
Yeah. More than grade inflation even? Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Grade inflation. Look at you. [laughs] I'm like, is that a civic thing I'm not aware of? Like grading the water level?

Fr. Steve (11:10):
Nah. So not to make light of it, but it is to say like, we're, you know, our humanity is meant to be shared with each other. And so Mother Theresa talked about this, the greatest poverty people have is not physical poverty, but it's, it's not having love, it's not being loved and loving other people. Even before we talk about it in a faith-based way to talk about it in our humanity, right, we're not made to live in isolation, that that does challenging things to us and it just makes us less human. You talked about that study from Vancouver, you know, I know there were studies, especially about young people, young adults, the rates of thinking about suicide, thinking about harming themselves and actually doing it increased significantly during the pandemic because people didn't have that sense of community that they were used to.

Fr. Steve (12:04):
They didn't have that kind of check. And I think you're right. You know, we see this long before the pandemic. You know, even a few years ago I had jury duty. And when you're waiting in jury duty, the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice here in Detroit there is no, you can't bring your phone in there and —.

Beth (12:30):
Can you talk?

Fr. Steve (12:30):
You can talk with each other, but it's this weird, like, it was very weird to me because very few other settings are you with just all these strangers and no one has a phone. And so these little pockets of conversation start up and it's actually beautiful, right? Cause you don't have the, what I would say kind of a crutch to go back to your phone and just kind of hide out on that. So our humanity is made to be with other people and there's a way that's really beautiful and we need it.

Fr. Steve (12:59):
There's also a way that costs something, because to enter into community means I have to be vulnerable. I have to kind of be willing to not know what to do and to get to know someone and to let someone into my life. But it's crucial. It's crucial for happiness. It's crucial for our growth as, as men and women. And all the more so as Catholics because God came down to dwell among us. He came to enter into our community and he wants to share his communion with us. You know, I've done a few conversations with people about live stream masses and when's the right time to come back. It is categorically different to be in person than to watch it on TV or through the internet. Because the sacraments are meant to be related to us interpersonally, right? Like there's a huge difference when I'm with someone else and someone says "The Body of Christ" to me and gives me the Eucharist or someone smiles at me or I'm anointed, or I hear the words of absolution in person versus just being in a screen. Do you see this in your own like ministry or working with people at Shrine there?

Beth (14:17):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just going to Mass, I remember when we first started out the livestreams and, you know, I'd set up, we tried to make the space at home Holy and you know, but when it ended, the screen just went black and it was like, the priest walked out and it just was unplugged. There wasn't like another screen after like thanks so much, or, you know, it just was over, you know, and it was just such an isolating reality to be like, I'm watching Mass, I'm not receiving Eucharist. I can't see anyone, I'm not seen. And it was just very — and then coming back, I agree, it's just night and day. Right? But you know, I was reflecting on that bit in Unleash the Gospel and the section on communion, "God relates to his people, not as isolated individuals, but as a people, a family, united with one another in deep bonds of love." Like, we are a people, you know, and even if even if community in our churches is still a work in progress, like just being seen by others, being seen and seeing others and like, I look around and I see my family and that's what I always tell my kids.

Beth (15:17):
We're going to pray with our family.

Fr. Steve (15:19):
As we are having Masses come back. I think one of the — you know, we're all trying to figure out how to do this, but I think one of the things that didn't work was the systematic dismissal of people, either after Communion or to say like, you have to leave pew by pew and don't talk to anyone and just go back to your car. Right? Like we were all figuring it out, so this isn't to cast blame on any parish that did that. But I just heard from so many people, like it wasn't the same experience. It's not the same as seeing each other. Or, you know, when you talked about shutting the screen off, that's what I thought we were kind of like recreating that. And at church, when, you know, as soon as you receive Communion, you need to leave, get in your car and go home. It was like that in-person way of shutting the screen off. Because there's so much of the kind of buttressing of the sacred that happens at church with the human fraternity, the human community we have by seeing each other as we come in or as we leave. And, you know, just even that small talk.

Beth (16:22):
Yeah. I mean, I agree. And I, you know, we also, you know, I've seen signs in all the churches, you know, don't congregate afterwards, maintain space then, you know, stop the spread, all of that. And, you know, here's a scary thought, like, let's say there was no COVID, would it be necessary to put that sign up? I don't know. Like, I mean, what percent of our Mass-goers even are really stopping and talking or known by someone else there? I just, I don't know. I think it's a real area of growth for us that, I mean, people leave early so that they don't have to wait for other people at the door, you know?

Fr. Steve (16:57):
Well, I mean, I've certainly seen community done well, community done well and done poorly. Any thought, like, let's talk about that for a little bit. Have you seen it done well, do you have an example of where this kind of building up of Christian community has worked well?

Beth (17:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Lots of things came to mind as I was really reflecting on that question. And I think the one that really stood out to me a number of years ago, I was coordinating small groups at our parish that we were starting for Lent and we had done it one year and, you know, really invited the whole parish and had a good response. And then the second year I was responsible. So we were launching it and there was one woman who signed up who was a young mother. And she was like, I'd love to be in a group with other young mothers. And I was like, young mothers? You're never going to get a group of young mothers. Like they don't have any time. When would they even do it? If they're working, if they're, it's just — it seemed impossible. Well, I started reaching out to a few and pretty soon there were eight or nine of us and we met for years and it was incredible.

Beth (17:54):
And you know, one at the — towards the tail end of it, I invited, we were talking about like, wouldn't it be great if we got our whole families together? 'Cause the women, we all knew each other, but the husbands didn't, the children didn't, you know, so I was like, "Oh yeah, of course we should, you know, no problem. I'll host." Well, there were 38 people once you have full — and nearly 20 of them were under the age of 10. So that was pretty wild. So I hosted it at my house and just seeing like the noise and the pile of shoes and seeing conversations happen between people that you're like, "Oh, you didn't even know each other." Or like seeing our kids connect. It was, it just was so moving to think of like, this is what it would have been like for the early Church, right? Like people are taking care of other kids like, "Oh, this isn't my kid, but of course I can get you a glass of water, no problem." And like, "Oh, I don't know if that's a good idea, Johnny, you don't know me. I know your mom. And I don't think she'd like that." You know, like, it's just people together loving each other.

Fr. Steve (18:51):
My brother-in-law would call that a goat rodeo, which is not the most flattering term, but I think it is, like, the chaos of having that many people and especially little kids together, right? There is a part of building community or being in that community where you lose control over coordinating every part of it. And it just happens the way it's going to happen. Organically.

Beth (19:12):
It's like a beautiful mess.

Fr. Steve (19:14):
Yeah. I know for me, I'll share kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum of 38 people getting together. You know, the guys I was ordained with, the group that I've gone through, went through seminary with — so right now there's five of us from Detroit and then about 11 kind of the bigger group who are not from Detroit. So the smaller group, we get together about once a month, sometimes more or less frequently. But it's something we've we committed to in seminary that we said, you know, we want this to be part of our lives. We're going to figure out how to make it work. It's usually messy because schedules pull each other, pull us in different places at different times, but it is so beautiful in for me to see the way God has worked through these men to help me grow closer to Christ, to share the joys of priesthood together, the struggles together, to share funny things that happen, to share our successes and our failures.

Fr. Steve (20:17):
And you know, one of the ways I really see God's hand in this is, if you had put me on my first day or my first year in seminary, these are not the men I would have chosen to be in community with, right? They're not the ones that I had either a natural affinity to, or we shared a lot of the same interests right away. But because we went through seminary together and because we were ordained at the same time, we've made this commitment that walking through priesthood, we're going to be together and share our lives in a way that we pray together, we laugh, we have a meal, we kind of celebrate important things together. And that has been such a surprising blessing in my life that it's not a community — i's a community that at times I was like, "Okay, well, this is what a good priest should do, so I'll do it,"

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Rather than "This is going to feed me," right. Like kind of obligation, a sense of obligation, but leaning into it, realizing that God has done awesome things through it and has strengthened me as a priest. It's not just something like I'm here for all of you schmucks, you know, but that God is pouring into me through them in a way that I would not have anticipated. And I think that's what good community does. It calls us to be generous with others, but then we see the way God has used it for us.

Beth (21:24):
Yeah, absolutely.

Fr. Steve (21:24):
I can't think of any bad experiences of community. Like I'm just racking my brain. We just do it perfectly in the Church. I don't know if there's —

Beth (21:54):
I thought you were serious for a second. I'm like, okay, wow. That's — what a beautiful, like, amazing!

Fr. Steve (21:59):
No but, what would be an area? Let's not say "growth area." Let's not be so like polite about it, but things just, we don't do well that that we, you or I have experienced as a problem.

Beth (22:15):
Yeah. Well I think for me, what comes to mind was I was in undergrad. I'd been really involved in a Protestant group on campus, evangel— just doing a lot of evangelism and, you know, I'd been involved with it for many years. I was a leader in it and it finally came to a point where they wanted me to teach something I didn't believe in. I'd never had to do that before. And I told them, you know, no, I could do all this other stuff, but I just, can we just leave that out? And they were like, no. And so I really prayed about it. And I felt like, okay, then like here's the line in the sand, you know? And so I had to leave and I was living with all my friends, everybody I knew my own — my whole world really was friends from this group.

Beth (22:50):
And so, you know, I just felt led that like, that's it, you know, the Lord's calling me somewhere else then, you know? And so I left and I found another group on campus that was, it wasn't a Catholic Church, but it was a ministry that was really more Catholic-friendly. And, you know, I knew a lot of good Catholics were involved. So I went there and, you know, I gave it three tries and you know, what I experienced was clique-ishness, indifference, indifference to my presence. No one even spoke to me. I mean, I would come in and like, it gets awkward, like when people are standing around and you're clearly not a part of the conversation, you know? And so, I mean, I gave it three tries. I really wanted to try to make it work. And I just, I just couldn't.

Beth (23:27):
And I, and I was really heartbroken about, you know, how hard I had been trying and this other group kind of like welcome people and like value everyone that walks in no matter who they are, where they come from or what their story might be, you know? And anyway, so that was the whole, that's really all I can — so I ended up finding elsewhere, you know? I had to build it somewhere else, but I think, you know, a lot of things that even though that story, that experience for me, wasn't in a Catholic Church, I think a lot of what happened there would happen somewhere else. You know? Like, I mean, I've seen people come into Catholic events or, you know, big things we're having or whatever, where, you know, people step in and then there's a, cliqueishness, right? People look around and like, Oh, I don't know that person so I can't talk to them, or just, I'm not responsible for welcoming them. Maybe the leader of the event should go and do that. You know?

Fr. Steve (24:16):
Well, I think there's one way that happens too, is you know, part of the cliqueishness is we know how to do things. We know when to do it, how to do it. And when new people come, especially to Mass, they just don't know what to do sometimes. Now it could be the particulars of our parish. Like they don't know this is a little thing we do here, but it could also be someone just doesn't know how to act at church. There's a story I've shared a couple of times that I love I was at a parish once and I remember seeing this guy, like three pews back, both arm — like it was the summer, he had short sleeves on — both arms were all tatted up right up and down, Mountain Dew bottle in his hand and ball cap on in church.

Fr. Steve (25:04):
He had it, and it was like, what is this dude doing here? What is this guy here? Right. And I remember thinking like, going through, like, man, why is he here? Doesn't he know what to do? And then it just, it hit me the sense of conviction. Like, how would he know what to do if no one has kind of walked him through? And praise God that he's here. So instead of me in my heart judging, or kind of giving this whole rationale of you know, all the things I see that he's doing wrong, like, God is so happy he's here and we need to help him, like, know how to be at Mass, but that's got to be done out of a place of love, and not out of a place of "you're ruining our community, you're ruining our space."

Beth (25:48):
Yeah, "let me fix you."

Fr. Steve (25:48):
And I think that can be a real problem. Welcoming outsiders.

Beth (25:51):
Yeah. I think it was Father James Mallon, who said, "Unless there are a handful of f-bombs being dropped in the vestibules before and after Masses, we probably aren't doing community right." Yeah. Isn't that like a wildly paradigm shifting statement, but like, it's true. Right? Who, who belongs in our churches who belongs in this community?

Fr. Steve (26:12):
Well, who are our churches for? They're for not just the perfectly initiated.

Beth (26:19):
Yeah. Who show up dressed nicely, on time and are irritating. [laughs]

Fr. Steve (26:25):
People who have all the social cues that make life convenient and comfortable for me. That is such a non-Christian concept of community. And I know I buy into it with, you know, cultural forces or my own convenience or laziness. So.

Beth (26:44):
Did you want to touch on community in our ministry or should we jump into practicals?

Fr. Steve (26:47):
Let's take a minute to talk about it in ministry. I've seen it work well, especially with men when they're doing things together, when there's an activity to do together. So, you know, just my limited experience, women are much better at just being together and sharing life together and talking. Men often have to do things together. There's got to be some like, excuse for it. And I think of it as like, it's much more of a bank shot to build community among men. Like, hey, we need help doing these things, and while we're doing that together, we build up community. So I think for building up community with men, having a project for them to do together is, is one of the most helpful thing. Does that make sense? Have you seen that, or?

Beth (27:36):
Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I used to, when I was doing youth ministry, I'd give the the small group leaders the list of questions and I'd be like, okay women, like you're leading girls groups, like here's the list of questions. Hey guys, you're leading these guys' groups, so if you could just read these questions and then can you just tell them, like, I need all of this stuff moved. If you could just move all this stuff over there, I don't really need it moved. But I think it will help your small groups. They're like, are you serious? I'm like I am, yes.

Beth (28:02):
So they would have to just have the questions in their head and then take them out and then yeah. The guys were able to engage. So yeah, I think that's brilliant. Yeah.

Fr. Steve (28:11):
How about for you?

Beth (28:12):
Yeah. I mean, I think in our, in ministry, I think events that are community generators, I think in some ways are surprising. And maybe this is, well, definitely this is only in my experience, but I think we tend to have like a lot of different groups that are very pointed with a specific end, like we're this group, we're this ministry and we do this at this time. But to have like bigger events or bigger ways that we can generate community where people can experience belonging before, maybe they're all on the belief and definitely before they're all there on the behaving. I think the more we can create spaces for those conversations to happen.

Beth (28:47):
I mean, again, like coffee and donuts, I think historically, I don't know what it was historically. I haven't seen it. When I was growing up, I didn't see it be like this incredible, like utopia for community and relationships. But I think with the proper people there with the proper mindset, it really can be, right? I was doing one and there was a man sitting at one table all by himself and, you know, you can see all the cliques happening around and you're like, I wonder if anyone's going to do anything, you know? And I want to do it, but I'm also already talking to this person I'm talking to now was also alone, and then you just see the people who step over and start the conversation. And these are the people we need to like give, we need to raise up more people like that. I think for all of our events so that people can be known. Yeah.

Fr. Steve (29:32):
Yeah. The idea of community is for us to be fed that we want to — we want people to have communities so that they can grow, but to get out of everything in church being a consumer mentality. And so to say that, you know, okay, while you're being fed, you also have to have eyes and ears to see who's in need, who you need to help out there. And whether it's, you know, someone because of whatever social skills, you know, kind of puts them on the outside or they're new or who — you know, pick whatever reason we can see someone as you know, maybe not the person that you would most want to reach out to talk to. But to have the heart of Christ is to say, okay, I'm here. Not just for me, but I'm here so that God can use me. Yeah.

Beth (30:21):
Well, yeah.

Fr. Steve (30:23):
Lead lead us, Beth, the star of the podcast.

Beth (30:29):
As we get into like practical applications, right? Like what does it look like in your life Fr. Steve? Or like, what would you encourage others, like, what does it look like to live this out personally?

Fr. Steve (30:38):
Yeah. I think there's a couple of criteria I would set for community, for real authentic Christian communio. The first would be that we have the same goal. We're striving for the same thing. If we don't agree, we don't have to agree on every aspect, but we have to have a commitment to the same goal, which is I want to be a saint, right? And that can freak people out to use that exact terminology. But I want to be holy. I want to be a saint. I want to grow closer to Christ. For me, the easiest way to say it is I want to be a saint. I want to give my life to the Lord. I want him to use me and I know that's hard and I need help to do it. So to commit to the same goal, whether it's a small group that you're forming, or whether it's a whole parish to say, "What's the point of this parish?" It's being committed to being saints.

Fr. Steve (31:29):
We want to be saints here. And then the second way that community forms with that same goal is people are willing to be vulnerable. I have to be vulnerable. And you know, this is a word that can mean a thousand different things, right? I don't have to be this kind of pouring out every bad thing I've done in my life. I don't have to be a completely open book or, you know, the — there's an SNL skit from a number of years ago, Debbie Downer. And she's like always sharing like the worst part of her life in every conversation. Like, that's not what it means to be vulnerable means I'm honest about how I'm doing in my spiritual life in the challenges as well as the successes, right? Like sometimes we're, we stink at talking about our successes as well. But for community, personally, I think we need a commitment to the same goal and then we need to be vulnerable with each other.

Fr. Steve (32:29):
Those are the criteria I think are essential for building community. I've talked with a lot of people, especially young people who say, I just have that in my life right now and I want it. So the first thing is to want it. And then I would say three easy steps to going forward is pray that God brings you people to help you do this. You know, whether you're a young person, a newly married couple, whether you're a new widow or whether you're kind of in the, in the middle, the prime of your life to say, I need people who are going to walk with me in my journey and Lord, show me who those people are, put them in my life or give me eyes to see them. So we need to pray for it. We need to seek them out.

Fr. Steve (33:16):
So put ourselves in the situation where we'll find them, right? So if I say, I really want community in my life, and then I come to Mass late and I leave early and I, you know, intentionally avoid everyone. Well, yeah, that's like talking to a single person who says, I feel called to the vocation of marriage, but I'm not doing anything to put myself in the situation where I'm going to meet people who, you know, who are potential spouses. And then the third would be to take the first step. So pray for God to give you the opportunity, put yourself in the situation where you're, you know, you're, you're with like-minded people and then take the first step. And usually that's an invitation to say, Hey you know, my name is Steve, and I don't think I've met you before. What's your name? Or, you know, to take a little bit of a leap into the conversation so that you can help build that community. So for the personal application of this to pray, to seek and put yourself in the situation, and then take the first step I think that's the application for our personal lives, but, you know our audience here is really people who work in the church too. So any ministerial application you'd have for leaders in the Church, Beth?

Beth (34:34):
I think, especially as we're coming out of COVID, I think maybe this is an opportunity for us to be renewed in community and to invest ourselves more in creating community. So I think a big part of that ministerially is just creating an environment in our parishes where people are acknowledged and received, where people are not anonymous. You know, I can't go to the grocery store without a human being, standing there, acknowledging my presence and at least expressing verbally that there's some in some way pleased that I've come. I mean, I've been a regular at some grocery stores and they'll ask me like, "Oh, where are your kids today? Oh, where's your daughter today?" Like, these are just people at the grocery store. Right? And yet I come to Mass and so many churches, so many people come to Mass and my presence goes completely unacknowledged unobserved, right? Whether I come or go or don't come or go, it seems, it appears to be a matter of indifference to the people of God. We know that's not the case. Right? So how can we create an environment in which people are acknowledged and received, you know. In Unleash the Gospel — oh, you were going to say something.

Fr. Steve (35:34):
Yeah, and why do you think that is? Do you think it's because we, you know, think introverts are smarter and holier people. And so we want to treat everyone like an introvert. Do you think it's 'cause we're overworked and tired or we don't have the skills or we're scared any thoughts on why?

Beth (35:51):
No, I'm sure. Partly we're scared. I'm sure. Now, as Americans, individualism — we're not supposed to talk to each other anymore. It's considered rude. But I wonder if it's possible that our great reverence for the sacraments in some way has gotten us here. Right? Our great reverence for the Eucharist that we don't come to Mass to connect with people, we come from Eucharist and what a beautiful, powerful thing that is. But is it possible that there's more? I'm not saying the Eucharist isn't enough, but is it possible that in our humanity Christ intended for us to have the Eucharist and a body of Christ around us, in our brothers and sisters to walk with us through the joys and sorrows of life? Is it possible that that needs to be something we rediscover in our modern individualistic moment?

Fr. Steve (36:33):
Yeah. And so it's the notion of the cross, right? That my life is a relationship with God in the — what does that, when it goes up — vertical, that's what it's called, in the vertical dimension of the cross that, you know the Mass is meant to relate me to God. And that's the primary end of the Mass, to worship God and to be sanctified by that. But that's not the only reason for the Mass, right? Like we, it's not just the "me and God two-step" is what one of the priests at the seminary is to talk about. There's the horizontal beam of the cross, which is me with other people and community. I love that passage you read from Unleash the Gospel that God relates to us as a body. So I think you're right on. I think it's not that we need to de-value devotion to the Eucharist. Certainly don't think it's that. But it's understanding the richness of the Church as the people of God and not in just some theological sense, but in a very concrete sense. These people here, not this more perfect people I have in my mind, not the people who always think I'm cute or who never annoy me or whatever. These people here are, the people of God that God has put into my life.

Beth (37:53):
Yeah. I was reading more about just what's been written, you know, what the Church has written about community. And I've found some document on fraternal life in community. It was written to the religious orders to like renew their understanding of community. And there's this one quote that just stayed with me. "This is our highest vocation: to enter into communion with God and with our brothers and sisters." It's got just that, the vertical and horizontal, right? So I just think there's something really powerful for us in ministry to rediscover that. And then a second ministerial application that I have, sounds maybe odd, but I think committing to healthy relationships, the resolution of conflict, and choosing to believe the best about one another. I was just reporting some challenge in one, like it was not a turf war, turf war is very strong language for what it was.

Beth (38:37):
It was one group saying, "Hey, shouldn't that group not be doing that, 'cause isn't that our area?" And one of our priests said, you know, "I tell people who aren't church people, thae sort of things that church people squabble about, and they just laugh and laugh." And I thought like, how sad, right? That, like, why are we doing that? There's got to be a commitment to resolving conflict. And I think the key really, I think it's believing the best about each other, right? Because when we get into, like, "You did that thing, and I bet you did it because of this," it's like, well, what an assumption! Maybe that's not what happened. Maybe we should believe that, like, you didn't even consider that maybe it would belong to this other group and you were just trying to do a good thing and how can we do the good thing together? You know?

Fr. Steve (39:21):
Yeah. Well, and bringing that to light is how those conflicts get resolved. Because if you do something that annoys me and I never tell you about it, and I just stew on it, right, then I start to think about the 50 ways this annoys me. And the 50 ways you probably did this to be the awful person that I've created you to be in my mind. But when I share it with you and you're like, "No, I just didn't think that, you know? Sorry."

Beth (39:47):
Yeah. There was a staff dispute at my last parish about dishes in the sink in the staff kitchen. Now it was just insane. And it just got so elevated. It was like, Oh my goodness, are we arguing about plates? How did we get here? But it was a big problem, you know, which, the root of it was not believing the best about each other and not bringing the conflict out into the open to be resolved right away. And I think that has to happen both on like the staffing level and in our ministries. Right? And like, how do we model the healthy relationships, right? If our parishes are places of toxicity, then they're not going to be — that communio is going to be really stunted by all of that. And then I—

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah. Yeah. And if we can't do that about dishes or about room reservations, like we're never going to be able to do it about the crucial things. Like what's the best plan to help people encounter Jesus? Is it Alpha? Is it something else? What's the strategy we want for the liturgy to reflect both the horizontal and the vertical dimension? If we can't resolve the small things, then we're toast on the most important thing.

Beth (40:52):
Yeah. Cause there's already a lack of trust to get to the important things. And I think just as a last application for ministerial, I think developing friend-making ministries. A lot of, I've heard a lot of different parishes saying, "Oh, we just can't get volunteers for this. We can't get volunteers for that." And that can be the case, right? It's, maybe we have — our dreams are too big for the people we have right now, and that can happen. But I think also developing ministries in which people who participate make friends, everybody wants to be a part of those kinds of ministries, you know? So like we had something like that. We called it the great big potluck and really everybody was there. Like, it costs us nothing. Everybody was there, everybody helped. And people who came would maybe host a table and they would make friends, young adults would come and make friends, newlyweds would come and they would meet other newlywed couples and they would become friends. You know, I think that sort of thing, it moves our parishes to be more of what we should be to help people recognize that we are each other's keeper. We are responsible for each other. So how do we live that out?

Fr. Steve (41:48):
That's great. Friend-making ministries, opportunities that we're building friendship together. That's awesome. Let's talk about questions that we've been asked about this, about community. We're getting the the timer count from Ron, our excellent producer. So telling us to keep it moving along. So we'll take a few of these before we wrap up here. The first one I want to ask about that is how do people in ministry build friendships with each other without it being kind of a weird dynamic or without there being an issue there as we built those friendships?

Beth (42:25):
I think it's really important to have some friends who are also living on mission so that it's not just you. It's just, we were just talking the other day, a number of us, about accompaniment and how beautiful accompaniment is and how draining it is. One of our key staff was saying, you know, that accompaniment is so beautiful, so profound, and it's a real sacrifice, right? To be available to everybody who needs you, you know? And I was just thinking like, yeah, where are the people that are pouring into us in ministry? Right? But it's because we're all, if we're all focused out and we're not pouring into each other either, you know, and you run out. You run out. So I think finding some people who are also on mission, who know the Lord, who love him, love his Church, who want others to come to know that and walking with them, walking with each other, I think it can be just amazing.

Beth (43:09):
I think the other key for just building relationships with other people, wherever they are in the journey is just not to make any assumptions. Make no assumptions about where someone else is on their faith and just accept where they are. And look for opportunities to encourage them, but I mean, you know, just being on staff at a parish and making friends at the parish, you know, here and at other parishes, sometimes you'll make assumptions about someone like, Oh, I bet you're all in. I bet, like, I met you here. So I bet that means this and this and this. And maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, you know? So making room for people to be who they are and love each other anyway.

Fr. Steve (43:41):
I remember we got to hang out a bit in Indianapolis last — two years ago now.

Beth (43:46):
Yeah. NCYC.

Fr. Steve (43:48):
At NCYC, the National Catholic Youth Conference. And that was just a great way to get to know you and some other people from around the archdiocese in a setting that just leaves time for that kind of — I don't know if, accompaniment might be too strong, but...

Beth (44:05):
Just wasting time with each other, right? Yeah. I was having breakfast. You sat down. I continued to eat my breakfast. There you go, conversation ensues. This is very human.

Fr. Steve (44:15):
Yeah. Any questions you've gotten on this?

Beth (44:18):
I think the question that seems to just keep coming up is how do we go from not having this culture of community to then having it, you know, in our churches and in our own lives. What are your thoughts on that?

Fr. Steve (44:32):
You know, you talk about accompaniment being draining. I think changing culture is the, like, structural way that we accompany. Right? Talk about being draining. To change the culture of an organization, whether that is the culture of a small group, the culture of a parish, the culture of an archdiocese or of a program. I mean, that doesn't just happen. I think a few of the ways we change this culture is by showing what we want it to be and why we want it to be that way, right? Like what we'll get out of it. What is the goal and why that goal is better. And then constant reinforcement, you know? When you talk about ministry that we have to kind of challenge each other about the parts of not making assumptions and leaning into conflict. That's part of changing culture too, to call out behaviors when they're counter to what we want them to be, and that's got to be done in love, but it's also got to be done with, what's the nice way to say this... With courage, right?

Fr. Steve (45:37):
And with directness. So when our parish is not welcoming new people, the pastor or someone needs to say something. It needs to not just kind of chastise, but to say, you know, what's our mission as a parish? It's to be a place where Jesus can be encountered by everyone who comes here. You know? Some people are not experiencing it this way, and this is the goal we have for it. And this is how we get there. We do it by being on the lookout for everyone who comes here to say, is this someone I know, have I met this person before? How can I be an ambassador for Christ? So I think it's by setting a goal, giving people the rationale for that goal, reminding people of this is what the goal needs to be, correcting behavior, and then to to just make a commitment to say, this is how we live that way. You know, one of the things I've thought about for ushers is an usher's prayer before — usher or greeter — before they get to Mass, like, "Lord, let me be the gateway, the bridge for people to encounter you. Give me eyes to see the people who need more attention so that I can be your hands and feet."

Beth (46:50):
That's good. I think just making time for people, you know? Arriving early, making small talk, wasting time together, you know? Yeah. I think it's so good.

Fr. Steve (46:59):
Well, we have wasted about 45 or 50 minutes.

Beth (47:02):
Well let's stop wasting time, then.

Fr. Steve (47:05):
Well, I meant that in the best sense though.

Beth (47:07):
Of course, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Steve (47:09):
Beth, is there a favorite part of spring you have? Now that it's getting warmer. A favorite, you know, kind of sign of spring that you point to that you really appreciate this year? I'll say for me, it is Opening Day for baseball. There is no better mark that spring is here and the dark winter is behind us than hearing "play ball." Even if fans can't be in the stands, the way they normally can. Spring is Opening Day for me.

Beth (47:40):
Nice, nice. Well, this is maybe on a much, much smaller level. I just want to put my swing out. I have a little bench porch swing, and I just would like to put it out. I also have a hammock this year. I would like to put it out. But I keep being warned that it's going to snow, still going to rain. Can't do it yet. So I'm just saying.

Fr. Steve (47:57):
Okay, it's coming.

Beth (47:59):
I hope so.

Beth (48:02):
Thank you for joining us for today's Encounter Grow Witness podcast. Be sure to like, and subscribe on iTunes and Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts, and join us next month.