Daniel (00:01.07) It's the final countdown. It's actually not the final countdown. It is the pre -show countdown. Hey Dave, nice to see you. We haven't spoken in two whole weeks, which used to be our old rhythm, but now we're on the weekly rhythm and it feels like ages. I miss you. Dave (00:06.067) It's very much not. Hi Daniel. Dave (00:21.075) Mm -hmm. Dave (00:24.979) Yeah, I felt the same man. It's good to see you, good to speak to you again. Yeah, how have things been? Daniel (00:27.182) Aw. Yeah. I like things have been very hectic. I've been doing so much and most of it was pretty awesome because I don't know like so much is happening in server land in front end land in telemetry deck API land. But yeah, I will tell you all about it in a second. But also you have been super busy, right? Dave (00:58.899) been really busy yeah I've drum roll Finally released Go VJ3. Ayyyy Daniel (01:10.03) Woohoo! Ta -da! Fireworks! Daniel (01:16.366) Congratulations! Dave (01:18.387) Thank you, mate. It's good to be on this side of the release for sure. Daniel (01:24.59) Did it give you satisfaction and a nice warm glowy feeling? Dave (01:33.363) Oof. Do you know what? Like it's a funny question because I had this conversation with one of our, I don't want to describe him as a listener of the show, but Chris, he's one of the co -admins of the discord that we link in the show notes. And yeah, the conversation I was having was that I actually feel no real... Daniel (01:36.078) Mm -hmm. Dave (02:00.627) satisfaction after the release of an app. It's usually more like relief it's over, you know, like, there's a, but the bot on the end of that is like, okay, so the, the, the actual just hitting release and putting it out there, I felt relief, but the fuzzies and the happy stuff has actually been all about the user feedback that I've had since then. That's definitely given me like a lot of satisfaction and a lot of, all the, all the dopamine. Daniel (02:07.086) Daniel (02:31.842) yeah, I can totally get that. Also, I feel like, if you're like me, like sometimes if I put out stuff, I'm just like, okay, now I've done that, so I can work on the next thing and I almost completely forget to celebrate the wins. So I'm hoping you find some time to celebrate your win because that's actually really awesome. And also, I'm gonna find some time to say, hey. Dave (02:31.923) So. Dave (02:44.915) Yes. Dave (02:53.523) Thank you. Daniel (02:56.942) Welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts Dave and Daniel, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for review, but no, actually the waiting for review has passed. We are now celebrating for release. Dave (03:16.243) Yes. That's right. Well, I'm not going to rebrand everything Daniel because I'm far too lazy for that. But yes. Daniel (03:23.722) I'm sorry. Dave (03:30.067) Yes, sorry. But yeah, we'll talk a bit about the app release and the user feedback and buts and bobs in a bit maybe. But Daniel, we've had some listener feedback since we last spoke. Daniel (03:30.19) Fine. Daniel (03:47.086) Mm -hmm. There are links. There are links in our thingy. Dave (03:54.995) Yeah, so I'm going to, shall I read the first one? Daniel (03:58.446) I just clicked it. Sure, yeah, read it. Dave (04:00.999) No, you read it. It was ated at you. Go for it. Daniel (04:07.47) All right, this is by Chris Wu, aka museum shuffle at Mested on dot social. Directed at me, which is why I'm confused because I didn't realize it would end up in the show notes. The text directed at me is, I see you woke up this day and chose violence. And then there's an image and the image is a screenshot of the telemetry deck account where I... Dave (04:20.115) Hehehe. Daniel (04:34.766) used to post every morning a good morning message that had various purposes. Most of them was to amuse myself, but also like some, every now and then I would try to surface various like nice tidbits. Also, especially for the more algorithm driven platforms, it was also a bit of the, the idea was also to hit a few of the keywords. So the algorithm would like bring us to the right people. Anyway, so one of the last, Dave (04:38.323) Mm -hmm. Daniel (05:03.054) updates, last few updates of those before I kind of stopped because I've got too much work to think about these all every time, every day, is good morning to all Objective -C developers. How are those knees today? Dave (05:18.963) Thanks for watching! Daniel (05:20.078) Which I'm so proud of that one. I am so damn proud of that one. Dave (05:27.635) Are you suggesting there's a certain age relationship to Objective C knowledge these days? Daniel (05:36.014) Are you suggesting there isn't? Dave (05:39.475) Very true. Very true. And I'm just looking at the... Daniel (05:40.622) Ha ha. Actually, I still have a few unreleased ones in my queue before. I kind of just stopped because I was like, OK, this is not working. Dave (05:51.539) I think you should keep them and schedule them up. Just make them weekly instead of daily and then you've got loads. Daniel (05:58.67) I should probably... Dave (06:05.783) I'm scrolling down the replies, Daniel. And yeah, so obviously Chris pointed out that you woke up today and chose violence. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. I definitely feel a little bit seen. Not that I describe myself as an Objective -C developer these days, but... Daniel (06:05.966) Yeah, maybe. Daniel (06:25.998) No, you're an objective knee developer. Dave (06:28.979) dude. There's one there from Rob Whitaker as well saying that feels personal. And obviously your conversation descends into a back and forth. Daniel (06:39.406) Ha ha ha. Dave (06:46.259) Yeah, and I love this. I love this other interaction there with somebody tagged as green sky over me where they said, why do Objective -C developers get any problems specifically? And Chris then replies with, their age. The Wikipedia page for it says it first appeared 40 years ago. Yeah. And finally, another person we both know, I think Sven, AKA at. Daniel (06:47.117) Don't even... Daniel (07:04.846) Damn. Dave (07:15.699) fine structure on mastodon .social, I think. Daniel (07:19.278) famously known for co -creating the Swift package index. Dave (07:22.867) Mm -hmm. Yes. And he simply replies with brutal, which I think. Daniel (07:28.142) Hehehehe Dave (07:31.059) Not to over egg it, but I think he's probably right. So yeah, thank you, Daniel, for making a reasonable percentage of us feel our ages. Daniel (07:40.366) The only post recently that went more viral than this one was when I claimed that people are using the Vision Pro lessen this. Dave (07:51.603) yeah, I can imagine for various reasons. Daniel (07:53.646) But the thing is, hang on, I'm gonna send you a link that will actually prove my point. Dave (07:58.227) Okay. Daniel (08:03.95) Yeah, that is actually because that is actually live. It is just not linked. Where do I send you this? Of course, in our iMessage. Dave (08:12.275) Put it in the show notes or I message, hi, this good. Daniel (08:17.262) So please describe what you see. Dave (08:20.051) So I see a silhouette of a man. One second. What do I actually see? I see. Here we go. Vision OS users. How many users does Apple Vision Pro have in the telemetry deck data set? And just to be very clear, there is a graph straight after that with various colors representing the different. counts that are going on. That's to do with vision OS versions ranging from 1 .0 .0 through to 2 .4 .0 and graph go down. Graph go down mate. Yeah, I mean there's a point where it's sort of hovering, which looks like it's hovering somewhere around about maybe the 450 sort of mark towards the last bit of May. But yeah, otherwise yeah, graph goes up and then goes down, kind of showing the release of the Vision Pro itself and the interest in the tail off. Daniel (09:06.638) Yeah. Dave (09:33.395) So I'm not going to spoil it anymore with a bad audio descriptive. It's definitely linked in the show notes. So people can go and take a look because that is telemetrydet .com slash survey slash apple slash vision OS slash users. But yeah, that's interesting. And it's interesting it went viral because I can imagine that that was from people either saying, yeah, called it vision pro. or it's from people saying, what? I love my Vision Prime, using it all the time. How dare you say nobody's interested? Daniel (10:08.846) I mean, yeah. But I feel like also the, I don't want to go too deep into Vision Pro today, but I feel like also it is people who are kind of mad at Apple that Apple's not doing more, you know? Like because they built this incredibly awesome hardware. And I'm kind of in that camp for now. I think that's going to be my position on Vision Pro from now on, which is like they built this incredibly cool tech. Dave (10:15.283) That's fine. Dave (10:20.467) Yes. Daniel (10:35.502) And now they're kind of letting it languish with mediocre software supports, even from Apple themselves. Dave (10:40.947) Yeah. Yeah. I can understand that. And it's a similar sort of anger as to when say Google decides to sunset a product that people love, you know, the famous sort of killed by Google, infamous killed by Google kind of thing. This feels like Apple's version of that is playing out, which is where it's like, yeah, it's released. We've done all of this and now we're just not going to give it much love. You know, it's sort of like a... Daniel (10:58.19) Mm -hmm. Daniel (11:09.486) Which is just weird to me, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Let's see what WWDC brings. It is just around the corner. Dave (11:14.195) Yeah. 100 % Exactly, yes Daniel (11:20.43) But I want to hear more about, wait, we have another user feedback before we have that, right? Hang on, okay, right, okay. We have another piece of user feedback, which is a toot by Holger Krupp. And he posted a picture of a book and says, does this count as a good book? And in records, it's very depressing. And it references episode four of season, episode 16 of season four of this show. Dave (11:26.419) We do, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. Daniel (11:50.318) which is where I said people should read a good book. I said something about a good book, hang on. I said people should read a good book instead of hanging on the social medias or something, I think. Anyway, the book is Brüssel sehen und sterben. It translates to seeing bruge or seeing Brussels and then die, which is kind of like a James Bond title, but like slightly. Dave (11:53.779) Yes. Daniel (12:16.782) slightly modified by Nico Semsrott, who is a German politician slash comedian who is in the EU Parliament and kind of says it's making him very depressed and so he's only wearing black these days. And I don't know, I love the guy, he's really cool and apparently he has a memoir now. I haven't read it yet, but I actually also want to read it. Dave (12:36.147) Yeah. Dave (12:44.481) I'm kind of tickled by that wearing only black because he's so depressed. Like I've just started off as a goth in my late teens and have never given wearing black up, you know. Daniel (12:56.75) And also the guy's whole schtick is he always talks like this. He is just very monotone. And so he's on the on stage doing stand up with this voice and it just works. I don't know. I don't know why it just works. Dave (13:04.339) Okay. Dave (13:11.667) Does he do that in the Parliament? Daniel (13:14.606) Yes, he does, he does. Dave (13:17.267) Right, that's kind of fun. Daniel (13:18.574) Recently, there was a thing where he just says, okay, we need to create like distributed wealth better. So like with the voice that I just like imitated and like, so we're going to do a reality TV show where the richest 5 % people in Europe will get will be forced to enter this reality TV show. And then they have a month to lose half of their net worth. Otherwise they will be put on the guillotine. And he just like put it. Dave (13:28.179) Yep. Yep. Daniel (13:47.694) You like to just put it out there and like his incredibly serious voice wearing the black hoodie and I don't know. It's fantastic. It is fantastic. That is way better than most other politicians that you see in the news every day or so. Dave (13:51.855) You Dave (13:56.051) that's brilliant. That's brilliant. wait. Dave (14:05.939) Yeah, for sure. I'm going to have to check him out. That's quite fun and definitely tickles my sense of humor there. Daniel (14:13.486) Yeah, speaking of user feedback though, like you wanted to show me or tell me about user feedback you got for the Govj3 launch, not Pro. Dave (14:17.843) Mm -hmm. Dave (14:24.147) Yeah, go VJ3 not Pro. Yeah, remember I've figured my naming out. It's going to be Pro VJ. Yeah. Yeah. So go VJ, the original, the OG, was released last week. Now I just wanted to talk very quickly about like a couple of things I did ahead of the release, because I think that's, that's actually like, it's part of what I do anyway by default now. Daniel (14:29.294) Not Pro VJ, Go VJ! Dave (14:53.075) But it's definitely kind of seems to be, it seems to be adding up. It seems to be paying a dividend back in terms of the effort. So what is that? Well, with when I stood the Pro VJ landing page up last December, the main thing that I had off that was a mailing list. So I started a mailing list signup on that landing page, which I've linked with my existing mailing list that I've had for over nine years now for Govj. And what I've done there is I've now got nearly 300 people signed up to that mailing list. So it's not like Held numbers, but it's also not like nothing either. So the mailing list is the thing. at the beginning of the week, I sent out an email to the mailing list, warming things up as it were. So I had a screenshot of, the waiting for review. status from App Store Connect, telling people that it was waiting on Apple now and if everything goes well, it'll be out at the weekend. I posted similar things to Instagram and in fact, actually it's probably only Instagram that I bothered with for that side of stuff. And then that's linked to a Facebook account and there's a whole bunch of people within the video mixing and VJ scene who are following me there now. Daniel (16:14.638) Hmm? Dave (16:20.979) I've been gradually building up this presence over the last six months. because again, probably relevant detail is I kind of jettisoned everything, Instagram, Meta, Facebook, a couple of years ago. So yeah, I started re -engaging with that just for, just for the, the app. anyway, so warmed those things up, seeded that sort of content ahead of the launch. Daniel (16:43.502) Right. Dave (16:51.187) got the app over the other side of review and approved. So the only thing I had to do was hit the button to release. Friday morning, I did that. So I could just test it during the day here in New Zealand. One of the benefits of being ahead of everybody else in the time zones is like, I can do that. You're all asleep. Yeah. And also if somebody else stumbled across it, I didn't particularly care. Daniel (16:55.054) Mm -hmm. Daniel (17:08.43) Yeah. Smart. Dave (17:17.427) You know, like this, we're not talking about some big embargoed release here. It's like, if somebody manages to go, Dave, three's released already. I'm going to be like, you found that nice. You know, so there's something else I wanted to relay is that even though I was trying to control the timing of when I put out the release to be for the weekend, there's nothing on my side, nothing that I believe I needed to get too wound up about, right? Like if somebody finds it early, it doesn't matter. And that's a kind of chill with release I perhaps didn't have way back in 2015 when I first released it. You know, like I wanted everything to be just so just perfect. So it's kind of been interesting to reflect on that. It's like, you know, yeah, my first release was definitely nerve wracking. And then this time was more just like a series of things I knew I had to do. But the good stuff, the good stuff is that... This has worked, you know, like warming it up. I've then had when I posted it's now here and I posted a video up with all of the screenshots out of the app store, just cycling with a crossfade on them over like 10, 15 seconds. That really kicked everything off on the socials. Yeah. And to put a bit of a... Daniel (18:34.766) Mm -hmm. Daniel (18:39.534) Fantastic. Dave (18:46.419) metric on this. I have increased my revenue by 50 % in May over April. Daniel (18:56.782) nice. Dave (18:59.187) Like that will fade, right? That is the release excitement and the blip that you tend to see with a big announcement. But the interesting thing will be if I look back in another sort of three or four weeks time, what level of things now at? Have I actually shifted the regular traffic with better screenshots, better features? We'll answer that in a month or so. Yeah. But burying the lead. Daniel (19:04.174) Mm -hmm. Daniel (19:20.974) Mm -hmm. Daniel (19:25.966) I like it though, you really have a knack for the communication. I feel like you don't want to do it, but if you decide to do it, I feel like then you're actually really good at it. Dave (19:37.871) Thank you. Yeah. And you've summed me up entirely there. Like, like if, yeah, I don't want to do it. it is a necessary thing. And I mean, crikey. I posted to Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. thank you. I mean, I tend to, you know, write it all out and then I go back two or three times to it to see what I can take away. Daniel (19:51.47) Because I get these emails as well, like, I am subscribed to your newsletter and like, they're just good. Dave (20:07.251) That's my approach. The other thing is I write how I talk. So there are so many commas in everything I write. But you won't see it because I've gone back a few times and taken them out and put full stops in. Yeah. But user feedback, as soon as I hit the emails out, I had... Daniel (20:07.47) Mm -hmm. Daniel (20:16.462) Ha ha! Daniel (20:23.15) Smart. Smart. I like that. Dave (20:32.019) within an hour, somebody replied back on top of my mailing list mail to my contact address. And I had just a one -liner of like, this looks legit. From somebody has, okay, that's cool. That's cool. and then. Instagram wise has been interesting. I've had, I've had like, yeah, a whole bunch of folks liking stuff and interacting and being quite stoked. It's finally released. I've had a good thread over on Reddit, where. Daniel (20:42.446) Hehehehe Dave (21:01.619) there's been really just generally wholesome and positive interactions, which is not something I always associate with Reddit. So that's been quite cool. It's a very good subreddit. But the stuff that I really got excited about was this one guy messaged over the weekend thanking me for the app release. I'm just going to look through my, I'm not going to share these because it's his personal conversation with me, but I can distill the... still the message as it were if I can just bring these up. There we go. So he said to me, he tagged me in a reel. So the reel was the app in use in this gig at the LA county fair. And I could actually see an iPad running Go VJ. And then he pans up to the stage and I could see the outputs. And it's like, cool. He's using the app. And I just said, I love to see that. That's great. Thank you. And he replied with the app was a lifesaver tonight. I'm so glad I came across it. How's that? That's an interesting turn of phrase. I need to know more. Daniel (22:13.966) nice okay what what what did the person do tonight Dave (22:21.331) Yeah, so I asked her to tell me more and he said, before that app, I was literally just using a PowerPoint for a static image and had no way to spice it up. Paper from my team were getting on at me for it looking too dull on the screen. And so, yeah, he was then able to download Govj, put a more, put more flair onto that output. Daniel (22:50.51) Mm -hmm. Dave (22:50.899) and that saved the gig for him. So yeah. Daniel (22:56.27) Nice. Awesome. That's really cool. Congrats. Like that's one of the, did you ask him if you could, I don't know, get a testimonial or something? Dave (23:01.811) Bye. Dave (23:07.635) I'm going to do that. Yeah, that's definitely going to be on my follow -up with him and a couple of other people. So I plan on grabbing testimonials from all of this. And then on the next update of the app, I'm going to include them in screenshots if I get the right permission. So yeah, because the way I've got my screenshots, I figure it will be the second or third screenshot in. So actually it'll be like presenting the app, presenting the main. Daniel (23:22.862) Fantastic. Dave (23:36.915) the main message, which is run the visuals for your show, then potentially testimonials, social proof, and then into the features. So it's kind of like you've seen the app. Now I'm telling you what people say about it. Now I'm telling you all the things it can do. I think that might be an interesting flow. Daniel (23:54.222) Fantastic. Yeah, I like that. Dave (23:59.123) Yeah, so lots of fuzzies. I've had a few other random little bits of feedback from people. I've had a couple of small feature requests and things as well. So version 3 .1 is already has stuff allotted to it. And yeah, the other thing is it's given me a lot of enthusiasm for getting into Pro VJ as well. Daniel (24:29.166) Very good. Dave (24:30.611) Yeah. So, yeah, good to be on this side of it. Daniel (24:32.814) ride that momentum. But at the same time also don't forget to take a break and celebrate your successes. Dave (24:40.211) Yes. Yes. And Daniel, I think you spotted this a couple of nights ago. I am going to link this one up in the show notes, but I posted a photograph of the app in use with my test iPads in short. So just, yeah. So to describe this picture, I've got my iPad Pro at the back of the table. And then in front of it, I've got... Daniel (24:59.31) yeah, I remember. Dave (25:10.323) three other iPads. I've got a couple of 9 .7s and a 10 .5 Pro from way back when. And they're all running the app, and they've all got the different themes of the UI on. So they're all different colored interfaces. And I'm using the NDI network streaming to send the video between all of them. Daniel (25:36.206) That's so cool. Dave (25:37.491) It's a lot of fun. However, it ran like a dog. You wouldn't use it in a real, a real production, but as a, as a vision, right? You know, I've got several devices and they're all beautifully connected together with this, this networked video. it's kind of the, the, the vision I had for this app a long while ago now. Daniel (25:57.678) Yeah. You know what, what I found the most impressive one though is you recently started posting on TikTok and you posted one video where you, you basically, you took the, you took a video and then you outputted it over the network using a loopback device, I think to itself. And then you kind of mixed the original video and the loopback video that was just like delayed by, I don't know, half a second, just to make interesting effects for. Dave (26:14.323) Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. Daniel (26:27.406) visual visualizations for VJing. And I don't know, that was so trippy. I loved it. Like it was really cool. Dave (26:30.291) Yes. Dave (26:34.157) thank you. And that's, yeah, that is something you can do. You can send this network video out and then consume it back through in the app. And the, even though it's all local because it's got to encode it and then re -encode it, there's latency, maybe three or four frames. There's also signal degradation because you're compressing and decompressing and losing some of the original input. And so yes, if you do that and then you blend it back with the video you were showing. you get that, you get these really trippy feedback effects and bits where the image like sort of fades and cycles off itself. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that sort of effect, so it was kind of interesting to just play with it and show people. Daniel (27:19.182) It's also like because it's not in, in a, it's because it's not made in a shader directly. It feels somehow a bit more analog. And that's kind of. Dave (27:27.795) Yes. Yeah. And it's funny you should say that because actually that, that with the, with the, the old analog mixer that I used to use 20 years ago, that has two outputs on it. And one of the, one of my favorite things to do back then was literally this, where I would take a, one of the outputs and just cable it back into one of the inputs and achieve a very similar sort of set of effects. So yeah, a bit of going back to my, my analog roots with that sort of thing. Daniel (27:58.062) Nice. Awesome. Dave (27:58.259) but yeah, I just wanted to sort of say like, okay, all this is done. What am I going to do next? Other than code? One thing I'm definitely going to do is I'm going to be doing, some short videos and they will be how tos. So yeah. Yeah. And I think that's going to be useful because. Daniel (28:17.006) Very good. that's smart. That is very smart. Dave (28:26.675) it'll work as content, it'll work as things I can keep cycling on social media as well. So yeah, we'll see. Daniel (28:39.79) I keep wanting to do that myself, but there's just like too much. I don't know, there's too much to do. And also like whenever I find time to document stuff, I'd rather write text first because I feel like I don't want to go the route where I only have video that explains how stuff works. Dave (29:01.011) That's fair. That's fair. And you know, maybe there's a well done, you're aware I do one of these videos and then I go, Hey, chat GPT, summarize it for me, please. And then use that as a jumping off point for a piece of text content as well and do some sort of notes. But yeah. Yeah. Anyway, plenty to do, plenty to get on with. But actually super pump and actually. Daniel (29:12.622) Sure, why not. Dave (29:31.315) It's funny, Daniel, because if I think about what I was doing indie wise maybe a year ago versus what I'm doing now, I've got a lot more enthusiasm for what is my core product, what has always been the thing I've been working on. And yeah, given it's been the third rebuild, the second rebuild, the third build of the app overall, it's kind of interesting that I'm sort of 10 years down the track and still into it. You know. Daniel (30:04.526) Very nice. So what is the next step for you? Like what do you want to do with Go VJ now? Like you've taken your break, but like, is it, is it now like straight off to Pro VJ or is it like a few more features or do you, do you, do you know at all? Dave (30:04.723) So. Dave (30:12.787) Mm -hmm. Dave (30:22.899) I've got a plan. Yeah. Yeah. I do have a plan. So immediate priority is go VJ 3 .1. And within that there's, there's a couple of bugs on iOS 16 in the UI that I'm not happy about. So definitely want to get those fixed. There's a couple of very small features that shouldn't tie me up too much. So just to go over that, that's I'm going to add MIDI control for the camera zoom. because at the moment that's not connected to a parameter. So that'll be like 10 minutes worth of code, and it's in. And there's a feature request for having the ability to nudge the playhead, nudge the playback back and forth a little bit. I'm not adding any UI for that, but I am going to add MIDI controls for it so people can do that if they've got a controller. So that'll be another easy one. And then other than that, Daniel (30:53.294) Nice. Dave (31:21.427) It's often into the how -to videos I described. So actually it's very minimal tweaks on GoVJ now and more in like a holding position for the moment. And then yeah, into Pro VJ, there is a side quest that I want to go on and I'm being very wary about this. But the network video that we've spoken about, there is an app that I want to exist that currently doesn't in the form that I want it. Daniel (31:38.83) Okay. Dave (31:52.051) And effectively I want to make like a camera switcher app. There are apps out there that do this with the network video. But yeah, they're not what I want and they're not charging what I think is reasonable. So I'm kind of looking and going, okay, well I've got this stack now. I've got this pipeline where I can, you know, play with this stuff quite easily and with the node based. video pipeline I built. How quickly can I build my little camera switcher? If we talk. Daniel (32:26.862) What does that mean? Like I can't really, like what is a camera switcher? Dave (32:31.891) OK, so imagine you've got four or five of these four or five phones or iPads or something running a networked video source using this NDI protocol and that you're wanting to switch between camera one, camera two, camera three, and to mix that output. So you might have a a view of all the cameras together on screen, a view of your output. And you very simply just want to go, I want that one right now or that one or I want to. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (33:09.102) I see. I didn't know that was such a, like, that seems like a, I don't know, like a built -in feature basically. Dave (33:17.907) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so yeah, there are, there are versions of that, but nothing as good as I think could be achieved. So, I want to give it a go, but I also don't want to derail from Pro VJ too far. So it has to be, as they would say in the industry, time boxed. Daniel (33:39.118) Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Also, I sometimes experience this with telemetry deck, where I think in retrospect, I should have held off on creating some of the features because some of the features, I don't really have the time to really push on them and polish them. So they're just there kind of languishing and being a bit useful, but also people get annoyed because they... Dave (34:02.291) Mm -hmm. Daniel (34:07.086) Like they use it and then they realize, this could be way better. And this kind of kind of disappointing that kind of like, you know, like how Apple does it, that's Mac OS utilities. Yeah. And so like, in retrospect, I think I could have shown a bit more restraint there and only like, and like I had like one or two features less, but I don't want to like cut off the features because I'm not Google either. Like I'm going to keep those, but you know. Dave (34:16.531) Yep. Yep. Dave (34:32.603) Yeah, yeah. We shall see. I definitely don't want to devour myself too far with the side quest, but... Daniel (34:43.054) Yeah. Daniel (34:46.51) Speaking of, by the way, one of the things that I kind of wish I could just let die, but like that's just not possible, is the Telemetry Tech iOS app. Dave (34:56.851) Oof. Yes. Yes. Daniel (34:59.15) which I don't know a month or go or two months ago, kind of stopped working because I needed to rework the API's a lot to allow for multi organization. And so it's just been like, like people have just been unable to, unable to do anything with it because you can't log into it. And it turns out though, according to my stats, according to my stats, like people still like to this day, like just like open the app every now and then. And I figured like they're probably very disappointed. And also they keep writing us. And so a while ago, like a few months ago actually, a young man wrote to me and Lisa asking, hey, can I do an internship with you? He's 17 and he's, I think he's won various like Apple scholarship things. Don't quote me on that. Anyway. Dave (35:28.243) Mm -hmm. Dave (35:42.291) Mm -hmm. Daniel (35:56.878) Like he's 17, but he is, he programs at the level of a, like at least masters of computer science basically. And so, kind of for the last two weeks, I have been forcing this unfortunate soul to like rework the telemetry tech iOS app while screen sharing with me and listening to me drone about like data structures and algorithms. And so I'm sure he has learned. Dave (36:16.819) Okay. Daniel (36:26.862) things mostly about, I don't know how to like shut out unwanted, unwanted information, but, the end result is that the telemetry iOS app is now slightly reworked. You can log in again, like this is not live yet, but, in, in the, in the repository, it kind of is there. You can actually, you can even switch organizations and it also, the chart system is actually reworked because that was half broken as well. And now the charts are using Swift UI charts. Dave (36:45.843) Yes. Daniel (36:56.718) which makes them look prettier. Yeah. It also makes it so that like half of the charts just say, hey, I don't support this chart type yet, but the ones that are supported are really pretty. Dave (36:57.203) Hey, that's brilliant. Question. Dave (37:10.163) wondering, can I get that out of the repo and compile it myself? Yeah. Daniel (37:14.99) Sure. It's in the repo. It is. Just get it out there. After some cleanup, I'm going to put it on test flight because that's how the current app is being distributed anyway. So everyone who has it will get it this way. And at some point, I actually need to rename this thing because it's still called AppTelemetry, which is a name that we are not allowed to use anymore. And I actually put it on the... Dave (37:31.059) Yes. Dave (37:40.723) Mm -hmm. I remember. Daniel (37:44.302) actually put it on the app store, but that's another topic for another day. But yeah, they can go to the repo. It is open source as they say on GitHub, github .com slash telemetry deck slash telemetry viewer, I think. I'm gonna put it in the show notes. Yep, there we go. Dave (38:05.363) Peace. that's great. And that's also super cool that your intern is getting plenty of Daniel pair programming time. I know it's adding up to you being busy, but that's a great introduction to stuff. Daniel (38:17.614) It is pretty cool. Daniel (38:21.902) Yeah, we're doing like, because he's, he's, he's not of age, like there's pretty stringent, stringent laws. Like for example, we can't, we were not allowed to pay him. so we're not paying him, but I mean, we can send him a bit of merch and I think recently I accidentally ordered something off apple .com and I completely mistyped the address. I don't know what's happening with that. Dave (38:30.067) Mm -hmm. Dave (38:34.931) Right. Dave (38:46.547) Yeah, yeah, I understand. Daniel (38:50.926) But yeah, it's been fun. So we've been doing basically nine to one, like, or nine 30 to one -ish sessions with mostly programming. And yeah, it's been fun. I'm going to miss him when he's gone. And I also have, actually, I have, and I also talked today to my future data scientist student. So what's the name? Like, is it called a working student? Like, basically, if you get a job, Dave (39:14.195) Okay. Daniel (39:20.302) as a student and it kind of supports your academia academic career but only partially like sort of postdocs and like a like a pre doc. Dave (39:32.211) I don't know, like, what is that? Would they be doing that alongside study or as a gap year or what? Daniel (39:36.238) Yeah, no, it's like, I don't know, it's like maybe it's a German thing. But anyway, if you are a student, you can get a job that is like 40 hours a month. And for actually like minimum wage pay, I think. And then like you'd usually get something that is like close to what you're studying, but also it might just be like, I don't know, like somewhere. But the thing is like, you don't have to pay like health insurance and stuff. Dave (40:09.651) Yep. Okay. Daniel (40:10.83) because yeah, and like, so like that those, these people are not paid too much, but this guy is cool. And he has, he now has access to all 5 .1 billion data points in our database, which is actually pretty cool. And so if he decides to, I don't know, do his master's thesis or something, then like we have the data to support him. And so he's going to start July 1st. So that's going to be awesome too. Dave (40:27.379) Hehehehe. Dave (40:41.587) That's really good news. That'll hopefully provide some level of extra insights and things that you would not necessarily have had the time to get into yourself. I don't know whether anything like that program exists elsewhere outside of Germany, but certainly in New Zealand we have a scheme that we call Summer of Tech. And in summer of tech, it's effectively somewhere between an internship and a grad program. And I think it's literally an internship, but a lot of companies tend to feed those folks straight into their grad program once they've actually graduated. So I think that probably behaves quite similarly, except that rather than being done as work alongside study, it is typically done over the summer holidays. So you do like a three month. stints also between that gap. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we get companies I've worked in here typically see quite a good range of candidates in that way. And they definitely work with some very, very good interns and eventual grads through that program as well. So it definitely works. You know, it's a good idea. I love having those people in my teams. Daniel (41:41.006) Yeah, I've seen it too. Daniel (42:06.99) Yeah, I can see that. I'm also looking forward to that. With that, of course, you see that I'm kind of slowly working towards having an army of minions is what I want, basically. It's just that I'm also realizing that if I want an army of minions, then I also have to have the project management to support them. So I'm slowly starting to build up processes where I can actually manage people. Because like, Dave (42:17.875) Yep. Yep. Daniel (42:37.102) Like until a few months ago, it's just been me and the code basically, and one huge board on GitHub. And that just doesn't fly now. So yeah, I'm thinking about various lightweight project management tools, or there's a lot of tools. Like I'm just going to use whatever GitHub gives me, but like methodologies, I guess. So it's not going to be full Scrum or something like that. Dave (42:59.771) Yep. Mm -hmm. that's certainly something that I'd be happy to. Daniel (43:09.102) Hey, you're working eight hours this week. Let's spend six of them just like talking about what the name of the sprint should be. Dave (43:16.691) god no. No no no. Yeah, I mean, we could get all the way into talking through that, but I think with that be a whole other show. But what I find really interesting with this, Daniel, is like, I'm keen to think about what sort of processes are you going to end up having eventually? And is this going to add up to, are you going to end up in a situation? year or two down the line where you have enough people to have a small office or something like that? Are you planning to always sort of stay remote or distributed and that side of things? Daniel (43:59.214) I think it's very likely going to stay remote first. Like I'm not saying I'm completely 100 % opposed to an office, but I've worked at places where they were remote first, but then they also had offices or multiple offices in various cities. And if there is a telemetry like Oxburgh office at some point, I wouldn't be opposed to that because especially I kind of miss, like I, I'm the one who was always for remote work and now I don't know, like five years. Dave (44:03.635) Yeah. Mm -hmm. Daniel (44:28.75) No, like four years into the pandemic, but also like six or seven years into me mostly working from home, I miss office life. I miss the disconnect between home and workplace and like both location -wise and time -wise, but I also miss the collaboration because I don't know, like I can get like to 90 % with... Dave (44:36.691) Mm -hmm. I can understand a bit of that, yeah. Dave (44:49.171) Yes. Daniel (44:55.918) the right video collaboration tools, but I don't know, like sometimes it's really nice to have a coffee with someone. Dave (45:01.875) Yes. Yeah, I see that. And it's kind of funny because I'm massively a big proponent of remote work. The thing I do miss, if I miss anything about sort of in -person collaboration, if you like, is exactly that. It's being able to go for a coffee and being able to catch up pretty directly one -on -one with somebody. Yeah. And I've been finding... Daniel (45:24.43) Yeah. Dave (45:28.531) Certainly in the last month or so I've been trying to make room for some of that with my day job. The bit I always, it's certainly a nice thing to do. And the bit I always sort of, I guess, come back to with all of this is like sort of that split between remote and office hybrid, all of that. Some of the pushback I remember seeing, Daniel (45:34.958) smart. Dave (45:57.555) early in the pandemic from people sort of saying how much they hated remote work and, and, and how it was difficult and all the rest of it. If I read between the lines of all of that, it's all about, it's actually about how your organization communicates in general, less, less so about the location. And so while you're at the beginning of this and you're sort of describing like, okay, we will always be remote first. you know, with, with some optionality on. Daniel (46:14.702) Hmm. Yeah. Dave (46:27.507) an office or meeting up or that sort of thing. I think that's a good call because there's a lot of situations now where companies are describing themselves as remote friendly or hybrid. And the reality of it is, is like everything takes place through Microsoft Teams or Slack or something like that. Like, you know, you kind of don't get out out of the tools just for being in the same office at a certain scale. Daniel (46:45.006) Hmm. Dave (46:56.531) And so what I feel very strongly about is that it doesn't really matter which flavor you're at. It's about having good articulated lines of communication, good processes for how you're bringing work together, all the stuff you're kind of on the beginning of getting into, I guess, which is that. Daniel (47:17.71) Yeah, I've had really good templates for this, like various places I've worked at where these things really worked well. And so I'm just trying to emulate those as well as possible. And also like the experience that I have had before, like one thing that I'm kind of hitting right now is I used to be like when I was a technical leader at various projects, I used to be like... Dave (47:22.899) Yeah. Dave (47:30.707) That's cool. Daniel (47:41.134) able to very easily actually impose a process on people and then just like iterate over it until people were happy with it. But the problem now is that I'm working with a lot of people right now who are not working full -time on telemetry deck. So they are like free dancers or the intern or like in the future they're working students. So these are people who are just like basically like passing glancing blows or even like people who... Dave (47:59.987) Mm -hmm. Daniel (48:09.102) are working for free or for other benefits for telemetry deck. So they're kind of donating their time. And so I can't be as pushy with those people. And so that actually makes imposing order a bit harder. And I don't know. I'm going to make it somehow, but I felt it every now and then that, yeah, huh. That is not working as I intend. Dave (48:15.955) Mm -hmm. Dave (48:21.491) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (48:36.334) But it's not like, not as if I can call this person into my office or into my Zoom room and then talk to them about it because, well, I could probably, but you know, there's a bit more. Dave (48:46.739) Yeah, so you're at that point you're async by default, right? Because you have no control over where they're at in that sense. Daniel (48:56.27) Yeah, yeah, but the async is fine. Like I can sync up or whatever, but I'm finding it hard. I think I'm finding it hard to tell someone, hey, I'm very grateful that you're doing this for me, but also I need you to do it differently. Dave (49:02.003) Mm -hmm. Dave (49:14.195) Yeah. Yeah. That's... Yes. That's an interesting one. And I think, again, like when you hit that sort of a moment, it's got to be a different discussion when they're not directly employed in full time with you compared to what you've got. But I do wonder if there's something in there about... Daniel (49:16.11) wow, this is a therapy session. Dave (49:44.019) Again, it comes back to communication. You've got to be able to give some level of feedback on stuff and you're the one that's got to look after whatever is built and done longer term. So it's got to be something you feel able to look after in that sense and maintain. There's probably something from their side of things as well about you being as clear and communicative as possible upfront about that direction, about where you want things to go. Because sort of at the end of the piece of work, at the end of the developments, it's done at that point. So, yeah. Daniel (50:19.662) That's the other thing I think. I'm suddenly not only the technical lead, but also the product owner. Like not in the scrum sense. I keep coming back to scrum. Like I actually like scrum. It's just like not fitting for what I'm doing. But in like, as in this is my product and I want to decide how it looks like. And then I kind of need to communicate that. And that is actually something new for me because usually I like my, like my thing was, okay, we know how it needs to look like and we know. Dave (50:24.627) Yes. Dave (50:30.695) Yeah. Daniel (50:49.71) how it should work, like let's talk about how to implement that. Yeah, but I'm also very grateful actually that I get to work with the people who I can work with, especially like people like Jihad, who has been mentioned before, and I think he's in the Discord, right? I don't know, he sometimes is, I think. Who is like extremely self -directed. Dave (51:09.363) He is, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (51:17.006) which is really helpful because I'm so busy that I like, I sometimes I don't even, I can't even like really do the thing where I am like available or like at a short notice to talk about like, how should we do this or whatever? And so sometimes if I know if I'm not available, like a few days later, he will just send me a thing, like a PR with like, Hey, I just did it how I thought it could be. And then you could, you could still like improve, improve stuff. And then he will also come up by himself with. improvements to the product that he would like to see and then just like write a ticket and be like, hey, can I work on this? And it's actually really helpful. And so one thing that he did that we actually released now is the Telemetry Deck Swift SDK 2 .0, which is a huge cleanup regarding naming. Dave (51:55.763) Yep. that's cool. Dave (52:05.555) Cool. Daniel (52:13.486) So A, the APIs, as in like what is a function called that you call to send a signal is now the same across all SDKs. Dave (52:19.667) Mm -hmm. Dave (52:24.467) Brilliant. Daniel (52:24.622) And the, what's it called? There's like a huge amount of. I want to link to this. I wanted to link you to the blog post, but it's actually not online yet. That's interesting. I need to put it on it. Yeah, I'm going to put the blog post on just right after this. So yeah, so the rename, but also the way we collect various data and also how we name the signals. For example, like, Dave (52:50.291) Hehehehe Daniel (53:03.406) Like previously things would just be called like, I don't know, system version. And now we're calling them telemetry deck dot operating system dot major version or whatever with this dots kind of namespace things, because then there's less collisions with like actually like properties that our customers then send us. But also it's just clear, especially if you're getting signals from lots of different SDKs. And then, so that's actually really cool. And here's also written. Dave (53:28.915) Well, that's awesome. Daniel (53:30.254) written the documentation for it, which I was very grateful for. Dave (53:34.707) Even better, even better. That's all well. Daniel (53:37.326) Yeah. So yeah, it's been a huge amount happening for both you and me. One last thing. Okay. One last thing I need, I really want to tell you about is, so I saw James Thompson, of, P calc fame. P calc is an app that is just, that is just a calculator for the Mac has been for 20 years. But James's thing is that he will take every, every Apple platform that comes out and port the calculator to that platform. And he will also take every single. Dave (53:45.267) Go on. Daniel (54:07.246) feature that Apple ever like puts in their operating systems. And, like he will build something with that feature. Like the, the, the calculator has, for example, because it supports, like, because it wants to, he wants to support like Apple's 3d, 3d stuff you can in 3d, then like roll, role playing dice, like D20s and stuff like that. And of course that works on vision pro and whatever. And. Dave (54:09.747) I am. Dave (54:33.971) that's fun. Yep. Daniel (54:36.558) That's his whole thing basically. And so, he posted, he posted, hey, I now have t -shirts. And so he has these t -shirts with the Peacock logo, which is actually a D20 dice or die. And I was like, that's cool. And he just uploaded, he just uploaded the thing to the cotton bureau and then it works. And I'm like, I should probably do that because I... Dave (54:51.891) Mm -hmm. Daniel (55:02.222) You'd remember a few years ago, I tried having a merch store, but then it would only send to Europe, but most of our fans are actually in the US. And so I actually submitted the Telemetry Deck logo to Quartan Bureau for the on -demand store. And they say on their submission page, we reject 90 % of submissions. And I was like, OK, I'm just going to try this, but whatever. And they actually... Dave (55:09.939) Yes. Dave (55:17.683) Okay. Daniel (55:31.022) So I've waited for a review. And the review actually came back positive. So there is now a Telemetry Deck t -shirt in two different colors on Cotton Bureau. Yeah. I'm just actually going to put it. Dave (55:33.459) Ha ha. Dave (55:39.955) Yeah. just I'm just taking a look right now I could even get a hoodie that's awesome Daniel (55:50.158) yeah. You gotta look at the sizes, because somehow the t -shirt is, especially the orange shirt, which I love the most, is only available in which is too small for me, for example. Dave (56:01.747) Yep. Daniel (56:03.022) But yeah, look at what's happening there. So like what I'm doing is I'm actually, I set the profit margins on Cotton Bureau to zero so that we don't have to pay taxes for it. We don't have to because it's not generating any income. This is at cost basically. You're only paying Cotton Bureau for this, which I'm totally fine with. Shipping to... Dave (56:29.267) Mm -hmm. Daniel (56:31.502) Europe is not as good, but we have merch in Europe already. So like this more merch, I think. And I don't know, like shipping to New Zealand is probably horrible. Dave (56:43.027) I don't know, sometimes it varies but let me just add this to my cart and have a look. I want to see how much the shipping is here, how much it's gonna wound me. No, okay it's not telling me, I've got to continue further. Come on. Daniel (57:04.078) I think you need to enter your address and zip code and then once you enter the zip code it will suddenly tell you like for Germany it's like 20 bucks or so. Dave (57:13.139) have a look. Shipping information New Zealand shipping service. Okay. Yeah, this is perhaps an after the show thing that I can look at it for. But anyway, yeah, super keen, super keen to have a look. And you've given me an idea, Daniel, I definitely want to have a look and see if there's anything I can do for for Govj with this as well. Daniel (57:38.894) Ha ha ha. Dave (57:42.195) But yeah, that's wicked. That's really, really cool. So I can finally get myself a Sondrine t -shirt. Daniel (57:42.254) right up. Daniel (57:52.11) In addition to all the stickers and whatever. I need to check postage to New Zealand for... Maybe I can send you a notebook. Dave (57:55.795) Yep. Daniel (58:03.822) I'm going to trade it. Dave (58:04.371) I'll figure it out. Just for reference as well, yes, stickers, I have many. There's one on the back of a test device there. Holding up a phone to the camera and Sondrine is happily there. But Daniel, I'm afraid I'm going to have to love you and leave you. I've got to get on and into the rest of my day here. Daniel (58:10.19) Fantastic. Daniel (58:16.078) Love it. Daniel (58:25.262) That is absolutely fine. It is late. So have a fantastic day. It's been amazing talking to you again. I hope to see you soon again. If you're listening to this, thank you so much for listening. Please rate us on iTunes. Please rate us on, like us on YouTube. Send us comments, send us emails, add contact at WaitingForReview or just mention us on the socials. Where can people find you Dave? Dave (58:53.747) You can find me on mastodon at Dave at social dot light beam apps dot com. And of course you can find out all about my apps at light beam apps dot com. But if you are particularly curious, please go to govjapp dot com and see the website for the latest release there. How about yourself, Daniel? Daniel (59:14.306) Fantastic. And also, yeah, go to telemetrydake .com and look at my new landing pages that hopefully are online by the time that this episode goes live. And also write to me at daniel at social .telemetrydake .com. Dave (59:32.595) great stuff. Well catch you later Daniel. Daniel (59:33.294) All right. Daniel (59:37.87) See you soon. Bye!