Daniel (00:01.166) And we're live! Fantastic! Hey Dave, so good to see you again! Dave (00:02.788) We are. Kia ora Daniel, you traveller you? Daniel (00:08.686) I'm back. I'm back in my office. But it's a different time of day for us because due to jet lag mostly and just like conflicting schedules, we're recording in a different time. It's morning for me and evening for you, which is different. So I'm slightly more illuminated today. Dave (00:20.804) Mm -hmm. Dave (00:24.868) That's right. And I... I was going to say actually, I can tell you probably can't tell any difference for me because this room is actually the darkest room in the house and I've usually got the lights on and everything regardless. But yeah, yeah, anyway, it's it's good to see you even at a completely different time of the day. And listeners have no idea that Daniel was just sort of striking a pose there on camera for me. And I'm very apologetic to to listeners. Daniel (00:35.054) No. Daniel (00:50.574) I was, yeah. Dave (00:58.212) because as we get talking, there's going to be a bit of show and tell from me potentially in a minute. But I'll do my best to give it audio descriptive when I show things on the video. Daniel (01:09.614) Oh, I need to show and tell you something as well. Like you notice that I'm only wearing my headphones on one ear. That is because I got my earpiece pierced. Dave (01:16.068) Yes. Hang on, hang on, come more to the side. I think we're just getting you clipped off on the video here. Okay, yeah, yeah, I see it. And it's that one just there to the top, right? Yeah, awesome. Daniel (01:30.83) Yeah. So I already have the tiniest tunnel at the bottom of my ear. And there's a ring in there. And now I also added what is called a heat -ex piercing. So it's towards the top. And that was very spontaneously in New York. It's my memento. Now my current memento is I need to spray this with air like... Dave (01:36.74) Mm -hmm. Dave (01:50.724) Ooooo Daniel (01:58.606) saline for three times a day for the next few weeks. Dave (01:59.62) Yes. I know that very well, although for me it was wow, 21 years ago. Yeah. And actually. Daniel (02:11.822) and you're not allowed to pick at it, which is so hard, I tell you. Dave (02:14.82) Yeah, you got to leave it alone. Leave it alone completely. But yeah, you can probably see again audio descriptive mode for listeners, but I'm showing my ear and I've got some light metal in there as well. So yeah, scaffold and then not quite a helix, but through the middle, through the very top. But yeah. Daniel (02:24.814) Oh yeah. Daniel (02:28.814) That's a lot of metal in that ear. Very cool. Daniel (02:37.742) Very cool. Dave (02:39.812) I forget they're there to be fair. Like you've literally just reminded me I'll forget all about them now for the next few months. But anyway, may your ear heal well Daniel and yeah, it looks suits you very, very well. Daniel (02:41.166) Hahaha! Daniel (02:50.99) Thanks so much. Thanks. Yeah, so far it's like going, it's healing really well. So it's going to be fine, I think. And there is a local piercing artist who is very, very good and who did the lower piercing already. And so once it needs some care, the New York piercing artist, I will actually put their Instagram into the show notes because they were very cool. Just writing it down. Dave (02:59.78) Mm -hmm. Dave (03:20.772) Yep. Awesome. Awesome stuff. Daniel (03:24.526) And then also the Oxburgh one actually. And they were like, okay, after four to six weeks, you need to get this thing downsized, which is a thing. And then after six to 12 months, you need to replace this stud with something else. And so for these two things, I'm going to go to my local piercer. And they were fine with that. Dave (03:34.756) Mm -hmm. Dave (03:41.124) Yes. Dave (03:47.332) your aftercare in with them. Yeah nice one. It really is. Daniel (03:52.43) Aftercare is so important. Anyway, how are you doing? Before I ask you how you're doing, actually, hey, listener, welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for review. Dave (04:15.332) Awesome stuff. Daniel (04:19.79) So, how's it going? Dave (04:21.572) Not too bad, not too bad. I'm literally just opening up Figma because I want to show you that I have delivered on what you, the task you sent me last week. Or at least I think I have. So let's see if I can actually share this properly on the YouTube. And like I say, I'll do my best to give a bit of an audio, audio descriptive thing. Daniel (04:34.542) Very good. Fantastic. Dave (04:52.292) OK. Give it one second. Daniel (04:55.694) So what Dave is doing right now is he is looking intently at his screen, but he's probably not seeing me because he's probably like browsing through his thousands of files. And here we go. We have video. Dave (05:02.98) I can see you. Don't stop. Don't you stop. There we go. Right. We do have video indeed. Daniel (05:14.382) Alright, what I'm seeing is a browser window that runs Figma, which is a graphics application. That I've actually never used, by the way. Alright, and you have new App Store screenshots for Govj, not Govj Pro. This is Govj for the phone. Dave (05:17.892) You are indeed. Yes. Dave (05:28.26) Yes. Go VJ. Yep. This is Govj that I haven't decided how I'm going to name it when I release Pro. So whether I call it just Govj, Classic, Lite, I don't know yet, but for now it's the only app. I'm kind of referring to it as Classic, just cause that sort of kind of feels nice for me, but it's probably not an outwards name. But anyway, updated screenshots. And what I've got here is I've got it centered quite nicely. Daniel (05:41.742) Mm -hmm. Dave (06:03.716) with a bit of a gradient of background, titling, big and bold. Went for a very, what's the word, modern and sans kind of font just there. And I've tried to encapsulate the message of each bit. It's, yeah, on tread. Now this is the thing, Daniel, I've got, Daniel (06:22.446) Yeah, you've got a few gradients in there, which is the trend now again. So you're completely on the trend these days. Dave (06:33.668) gradiented mode just here. And if I zoom out just a little bit, people who are watching can see it's a gradiented image that sort of goes across the entire set of screenshots. Daniel (06:44.11) It's not even a gradient, right? It's like just an image that is like highly blurred so that it looks like a gradient. That's very cool, actually. Dave (06:47.972) That's right. It's actually an image I took when I was on stage with a group called Plump DJs and I was VJing and it's them actually at their DJ equipment just sort of blurred out and then effected and moved in. But a little bit of trivia, a little bit of an homage to a good gig that I really, really enjoyed. It's back in 2015 now, it's quite a while. But... Daniel (07:03.246) That's amazing, I love that. Dave (07:16.132) The thing I wanted to ask you though is I've got this blue gradient thing on the go or the rest of it. I've got these, this titles at the top, just like a lot, a lot of people do, but I've actually got a little bit of a trim around each title, which is okay. It's one way of doing it, but I've gone for another option, which I think is the one I'm going to really go with, which is that instead of it being a clipped sort of background for the title at the top and then the gradients appearing, I've extended. Daniel (07:43.662) Mm -hmm. Dave (07:46.02) the darker panel behind the text so it's over the whole lot but the gradient is still there and now it's kind of almost a black but with gradient sort of gently moving across. Yeah. Daniel (07:55.758) I like this one better. So like if you're an audio listener, there was a version with the background image that was slightly lighter and then the text had basically like a black box behind it so you could easily read it. Now this version that we're looking at has the background slightly darkened but the text is directly on the background and I think I like this one better. The features by the way that are in your screenshots, so the titles of your screenshots are run the visuals for your show. The next one says... Dave (08:02.756) Mm -hmm. Daniel (08:25.198) easy to use UI, keeps you in control. The next one says load your own video content. Super awesome, actually. The next one says live input from camera and NDI. Next one says output to HDMI or AirPlay or NDI, I assume. Dave (08:33.22) Mm -hmm. Dave (08:37.988) Mm -hmm. Dave (08:45.796) as well, but it was overcooking it at that point. It's like somebody who knows NDI will be fine with this. It's mentioned, there's a nod there to it. Daniel (08:48.046) Yeah, no, this is better actually. Daniel (08:56.494) And then there's multiple effects and blend modes. I wonder if this could come earlier, actually. And then it's and much more in this list of other features. I think I really like this. Dave (09:00.1) Mm -hmm. Dave (09:03.588) Maybe. Maybe. Dave (09:08.516) Yeah. So I think what you've said there about the last one, the multiple effects and blend modes, and that shows that's actually the effects control with one of the effects that has four sliders on it. So it fills the screen quite nicely. I can zoom in there, but I think you're right. So I'll probably move that one ahead of the output one, potentially all the way up to straight after load your own video content. But yeah, it's one of the only bits to really sort of show, oh, you can do all this sort of, you know, messing around with your stuff. So yeah, it probably does belong a bit earlier. But yeah, I mean... Daniel (09:51.47) You know what I like about this? Like the thing I like about this most is the first screenshot. It explains really what the end result is for someone who uses GoVJ, which is run the visuals for your show. Like this is a great slogan, I think, because even as a lay person, it tells me like, okay, what is this, you know? And if I use this app, then what does this enable me to do? And I think that's a really good lesson actually. Dave (09:53.316) Yeah. Dave (10:21.956) Thank you. And I've thought about the titles of this quite a bit. So one of the things I often come back to and to the point that I think anybody who knows me gets to hear this approach eventually at some point with something. But one of the things that always comes back to me is this, the power of why, start with why thing that I kind of thought leader, kind of guy, Simon Sinek did this whole thing. He, I think it was his Golden Circle idea. There's a YouTube video. We can link that. He did a TED talk, all of that sort of stuff. Now, you know, I find a lot of those sort of things quite almost snake -oily these days, but the idea of like the power of why, start with why sort of really struck me. And you can sum it up very, very quickly with, he says most... Daniel (11:11.918) Mm -hmm. Dave (11:18.34) things advertise and sell themselves with an idea of what you can do rather than telling you their why, like why this thing exists. Yeah. Daniel (11:28.494) And it's hard too, you know, like because the why might be different for different subgroups of your target audience or different target audiences. And also like sometimes you might not see the why, you know, you might not be able to actually understand the why if you're too close to your own thing. Like I think that happens to me sometimes. Dave (11:47.396) Yeah. It's so easy. So, so easy. And, um, yeah. So I, I took, I took that approach and what I tend to do, and I'm kind of sharing this cause there's a bit of a working model here that could be useful to somebody, I guess, but, um, I'll tend to sit down and write down all of the watts of what I've built. Cause quite often, like, I feel like I know why intrinsically I, I've, I've got my own personal why behind building something or whatever, you know, it could, and the example of a lot of this stuff, it's because I like playing with video frameworks and making things make effects, you know, and I used to put on shows myself. So, but, you know, I'll list all of the features down first and then I'll take a step back and kind of go, well, okay, putting this on its head. I've got a title of which I'll put why now I'll bullet point things that I think are wise for people. Um, and I've got the watt, right? The watt is all the features that I've just listed straight off the top of my head. And the how sort of sits floating in the middle and kind of doesn't always apply to this sort of stuff. Like, you know, the how is, is a decent quality app. Actually, there's a bit of that in here in terms of, I sort of say about the, the UI keeps you in control. Right? So the how here is that, you know, I'm doing this through an app. Um, the, the. it has an easy to control UI. And then the Watts come in after that. But what I really feel I nailed with these screenshots and this communication is exactly what you zeroed in on, which is that I've led with that. Why? Why is anybody going to be interested in this app? It's because it helps you to run the visuals for your show. Very, very simple. And then it's like, well, you know, straight out of the gate that can be generalized to somebody who's Dave (13:43.556) putting on visuals for a party at home. It could be somebody who's doing it on a big stage with a massive DJ. It could be somebody who is just putting on visuals for their friend's band. You know, they're the token VJ with the band, right? That's actually a thing that often tends to happen. Ask me how I know. But then. Daniel (13:55.438) Mm -hmm. Daniel (14:02.126) Hahaha. Daniel (14:06.062) hahahaha Dave (14:10.404) Yeah. And then obviously on the very last slide where I say, and much more like this is absolutely the what's right. It's all of the, the, what it does, the features that the app has. Um, and so they're there. I've actually trimmed that down a bit as well and tried to sort of order it in a sense that, um, that anybody who's looking for specific things should be able to find some of that inside of what this says. Um, yeah. So. Daniel (14:37.39) This is nice, yeah. Dave (14:40.132) I didn't start with screenshots, I started with why. I'm gonna lay that all down and yeah. Daniel (14:44.846) Very good. I love this. I love this. Now, of course, it might be, I'm not saying it is, but it might be that the next task for you is now to build a landing page or multiple landing pages that have the same content with the same screenshots and a bit more text. But it might not be because I don't know how important search engine findability is for you. Dave (14:58.084) Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes. Dave (15:09.668) I could release it tomorrow with just the websites I have today and not care. Like, like I don't think. Yeah. The vast majority of people finding the app will find it through the app store rather than through the website. And I've looked into some analytics in the past and every time I check, it seems to bear that out that the website's really kind of more somewhere to just host the privacy policy than anything else. But it's still. Daniel (15:13.55) Oh yeah, no, like you could totally release this, but like for the next few days or weeks. Daniel (15:24.11) Mm -hmm. Dave (15:39.652) You know, to some degree, a proof of existing, a proof of me and like the max apps existing. Um, and so there is some value to it. So I will be updating it before releasing it. And I'm going to be doing exactly what you've just described really, which is I'll be taking bits from these screenshots and then using them as the, the sort of breakdown on the website and a vertical flow. Yeah. Daniel (16:02.99) Cool. That's an experiment that I'm kind of running right now on the site, which is, can I improve the SEO of the telemetry deck landing pages? And I'm trying to do this by, on the one hand, measuring the Lighthouse score, which is basically like how Google scores your page technically from one. And that has a huge impact on your ranking, apparently. And also just by trying to find different combinations of landing sites, because everything Dave (16:23.236) Mm -hmm. Daniel (16:32.302) I built is very modularized, so I can just have like, oh yeah, what if I put this image at the top and then add this text and show these four features? And then I have a landing page that is like maybe for this kind of person or something. And so that's an experiment that I'm kind of running. But these things take a lot of time, so I'm just like every now and then look at it, calculate the light horse score. Dave (16:38.244) Mm -hmm. Dave (16:53.604) fortunate that you know you're working literally on a product that enables you to A -B test these things. Daniel (17:01.23) That is kind of helpful, yes. Eating my own dog food and stuff. Dave (17:06.499) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But no, I think you set the challenge last week and I think I understood the assignment. So. Daniel (17:19.278) Yeah, I'm proud of you. Dave (17:21.38) Thank you. Thank you. This marks progress. It took a bit of a moment to step back, step away from Xcode, stop adding stuff and kind of just go, yep, okay, what's it going to be? The other thing is, is the beauty of laying these out is it's actually showing me where I want to focus on the last remaining tweaks and bits before I actually put it out into the world. So the screenshots, there's a bit where you can see the contents. It sort of shows you your, load your own photos. Daniel (17:29.134) Hmm. Dave (17:50.788) And there's a bit that shows like some folders in the app and they're named like Friday night, Saturday night and the festival or something like that. And it's just got the simulator's default images loaded inside there. So the yellow flowers, the pink flowers and some waterfall. So I need to put real content in there to make that work. And I can do that with the demo content the app has today. Daniel (18:04.782) Hehehehe Dave (18:17.764) But the demo content shipped with the app in 2015. And honestly, Daniel, I am kind of nine years sick of looking at that content when I'm testing the app. And honestly, like some of it's good and I would still VJ with it today. And some of it is like, yeah, and nobody really is using that. I think now, to be honest with you, like it doesn't really fit a particular aesthetic or theme. So. Daniel (18:40.27) Mm -hmm. Dave (18:47.14) Long story short, I'm taking a bit of a side quest to get some content together. Daniel (18:53.582) If someone were an artist, would you invite them to offer commissions and propose collaborations with you or something? Dave (19:05.38) Potentially, and I've gone round and round on this in the past, but the problem I then end up with with that is actually what's an equitable commission. Do I then, certainly if I was to be selling content via an in -app purchase in the app, I would be wanting the content creator to take a percentage of that. And then I'm sort of working within, well, I get this much from Apple, they may root for me or not. And... Daniel (19:16.462) Mm -hmm. Dave (19:33.572) I may get a refund or not rather and then when do I pay people out and all of that. So I end up gridlocked with all of that. Yeah. Would I commission somebody and pay them a one -off fee for content? No, not at this stage. So the budget I'd need to have to do that properly. I'm still not making enough per month for me to mentally justify that. Never say never. You know, like I've had. Daniel (19:37.582) Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's a hard problem probably. Dave (20:02.404) I've had an offer from a friend in the best for part of this and that could be a good idea. But I wanted to take a bit of a side quest personally to get back into Blender briefly to go and make some content. And we had Easter here last week and I spent Easter Monday, which is a public holiday here in New Zealand, making loops in Blender, having a great, great old time. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (20:29.038) Ha, fantastic, I can't wait to see them. Dave (20:32.484) They're a bit basic, but yeah, they're going to do the job. And I also have an in -house blender consultants in the form of my, my eldest son. Daniel (20:39.63) No. Yeah, his work is amazing. Like, I'm really impressed with what he does. Dave (20:47.46) Yeah, I should absolutely take the opportunity to share with listeners, to be honest, and link one of my oldest son's videos in the Shire Nights, because he makes animations of Transformers that kind of try and get us sort of Spider -verse aesthetic is one of the many things he does. Daniel (20:59.822) you do that. Daniel (21:08.974) Oh yeah, I really enjoy them. Also a tip for you, I don't know if this is relevant to you, but sometimes I buy assets from websites like TurboSquid, where you spend like, I don't know, 20 bucks and have a reasonably good model of something without having to model it yourself. And sometimes, especially if you're on a deadline, that's just a quick way to get something. Dave (21:14.212) Mm -hmm. Dave (21:20.452) Hmm? Dave (21:33.796) Yeah, yeah, that's a great piece of advice to be honest Daniel and I need to to definitely take you up on that one because I can animate in Blender, I can set textures and lights and stuff quite easily, but the nitty gritty of modeling things is so time consuming and I am so awful at it. So yeah. Daniel (21:53.422) Yeah, for me, it turns out I can really do a lot of things programmatically in Blender, either with the nodes interface or even with Python these days. And so sometimes I load some telemetry data into Blender and make charts out of them and they look nice. But other times I buy these asset packs of Blender where you get like, I don't know, 50 pipeline pieces or 50 sci -fi buildings or whatever. And you can just... Dave (22:07.62) Hmm. Daniel (22:20.302) I have them buy them once rearrange them and use them and texture them and they're very helpful actually. Dave (22:26.34) That's an awesome little bit of insight baseball there for your beautiful images. Yeah. Daniel (22:29.326) Yeah. Because my buddy Florian, my buddy Florian tells me like, Daniel, your time is too important and too costly to spend in Blender all the time. And I'm like, but I like it. And he's like, yeah, then you got to be more efficient. And so I'm trying to be more efficient. Dave (22:45.732) Well, that sounds like advice I need to hear. So on the basis of using this show to help act as both confessional and mentorship and guideline for everything we do, I will take that advice. I'm going to hunt down some decent assets and that'll let me skip to the end of it with content generation, I think. Daniel (22:48.398) Hehehehe Daniel (23:08.462) The local startup scene has a thing where they host a what is called a fuck up night. Dave (23:16.324) I'm gonna have to bleep you now, Daniel. Daniel (23:17.582) And you probably do. Yeah. And I can, I can self -censor from now on, but I wanted to say it once because it's so weird. Like it is like a very, it's like a very reputable organization. It's basically hosted by the chamber of commerce. And because like as Germans, if you say something in English, it's not as harsh, right? So it's just like a oopsie. Dave (23:21.764) I'm not going to bleep you, but to carry on. Dave (23:30.436) You get one and it's still PG -13. Dave (23:38.724) OK. Yep. Daniel (23:48.334) So if you go to OOPSIE night, you can then in front of a lot of people, tell them about your startup related OOPSIE's and so that they may learn and maybe avoid mistakes. And that they also may learn that some mistakes are just happening when you create a company. Lisa is actually speaking on one of those. Dave (24:05.508) Okay. Dave (24:14.564) That's brilliant. Daniel (24:18.222) and in the near future, but it's not gonna be, there's one of those sessions that is not gonna be recorded so that people can talk for you about their oopsies. Dave (24:25.668) Mm -hmm. Dave (24:30.308) That's brilliant. Well. Daniel (24:32.11) But I'm gonna be there as well and it's gonna be a blast, I think. Dave (24:35.556) It's a shame it won't be recorded. I understand the reasoning why, but... Daniel (24:39.534) Yeah, but you get all my oopsies here, like most of them, I think. Dave (24:42.116) True, true, true. But I don't want to talk too much about oopsies today, Daniel, because I'm thinking I want to find out more about your USA trip. Daniel (24:54.478) besides the fact that I got pierced. I had a blast. It was really nice to see my family again. I hadn't seen them in the flesh for a while, especially my little nephew. I also learned the word nibbling, which is a fantastic word that includes both nephews and nieces. And I'm going to be using that from now on because I have nephews and nieces. Dave (24:56.58) Yes. Dave (25:00.452) Awesome. Dave (25:14.02) Mm -hmm. As in, as in the little nipplings or... aww. Daniel (25:21.55) Yes. So I can now speak about being a great uncle to my niblings. I read a lot of kids books in both German and English. We talked about the nine horn last time. And that was not on the recording anymore. But what I also do is I do the voices for these characters. Like the nine horn, for example, it speaks like this and then it says, nein, nein. Dave (25:28.036) Oh, that's cute. That's very cute. Dave (25:34.692) You did? True, true indeed. Dave (25:45.156) You do. Dave (25:51.492) from you. I was so enamored with the fact that it's actually called the nine horn as well like the no horn, you know nine horn Because I yeah Yeah, so you said that it's a unicorn that says no and then after we recorded I went and looked it up and I said It's actually called the nine horn. That's brilliant Daniel (25:55.054) Um... Daniel (26:00.814) Hehehehe Daniel (26:04.526) Because it's a unicorn that says no, of course it's called the nine - Daniel (26:13.582) Ha ha! And you now have an iMessage sticker of the character and you said it to me every now and then. It makes me giggle all the time. Dave (26:25.54) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I've definitely, uh, definitely taken the nine horn, um, into my heart, Daniel, after you mentioned it and the, and send that sticker to many of, uh, my friends and family. Daniel (26:32.462) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (26:39.31) Please do, please do. Other than that, I was in New York for the first time and it was just a very short visit, but it's an amazing city. It was really nice just to get a tiny slice of New York. The weather was horrible, but the city is still beautiful and it was just really nice. Just basically doing the sights, right? Like, so... Dave (26:43.78) Mm -hmm. Dave (26:53.7) of scintillating New York life. Dave (27:01.7) Yeah. That's awesome. Daniel (27:09.422) And what I also did, and I did that before, but I really wanted to do it again, which is I visited the Udvar -Hazy Center in Washington, DC, which is a huge hangar. It is basically an extension of the National Air and Space Museum. And they have the big ones there. They have a Concorde. They have a Boeing 707, which is the first jetliner. They have a... B -71, like a Blackbird stealth bomber, or like stealth, it's not a bomber, it's like a, I don't know, stealth plane. And yes, yes. And they have the Discovery, which is a space shuttle. How do I say this? The most flown space shuttle, actually. The space shuttle that spent the most time in space. Dave (27:41.316) Mm -hmm. Oh. Dave (27:46.756) X -men fans, so I'd like to see a blackbird, to be fair. Dave (28:01.252) Yeah. Daniel (28:06.83) The spacecraft that spent the most time in space, period, I think, excepting, let's say, like stations. And I just loved it so much. I just loved it so much. I am going to actually show a few pictures, but I'm not going to comment on them. I'm just going to tell you how it went, how I liked it. And if you see this in YouTube, then you can experience what I saw. And if you don't, then you don't. Dave (28:36.165) Yeah, I tell you something. Did you post these to Mastodon? Cause we could also post the link to the Mastodon post. Daniel (28:42.542) yet but I will totally totally do that actually. Actually I did make a thread. Yeah most of these are already on Macedon. So I'm gonna make a note. Yeah you made a note already in the show notes. Yeah we're gonna post those. So what we did like a few days before we went there my brother's like hey so I have this distant relative Steve who used to work at NASA. Dave (28:49.028) Awesome. But yes, I can see. I did. Daniel (29:10.606) And he's offered to join us and then just like tell us lots of like background stuff. Would you like that? And I'm like, would I? Does the pope poop in the woods? Dave (29:20.708) hahahaha Daniel (29:26.542) I don't know, like, I mean, okay, maybe. Dave (29:31.012) guided tour about somebody who understands and knows the history and everything and can give you all of that lore. Daniel (29:37.518) Yeah. Yeah. And that it was like, it was a fantastic tour we had with him. He, it was a lot of lore that he taught us really. Uh, that was exactly, exactly the thing. So, um, he, um, did some work on the orbiter itself and, and, uh, on the, especially in the early parts, like in the seventies and stuff like that. And he had lots of like these, these little anecdotes where we're like, oh yeah. And then at first we wanted to make it smaller and also add, add some everything engines, but then. Dave (29:46.66) Yeah. Dave (29:54.5) Yeah. Dave (29:59.012) Mm -hmm. Daniel (30:07.662) The Department of Defense came up and was like, hey, you guys have some more money, but also it needs to be bigger and have larger cross -range compatibility. So we kind of dropped the air breathing engines, and it became just a glider. And that made it harder, of course. And there are those kinds of things. And. Dave (30:28.548) So you were in space heaven here in terms of. Daniel (30:34.99) I was in space heaven and also, and then he's like, yeah. And you know what that is above this, above the space shuttle. That's a satellite, right? And I'm like, yeah, that's a TDRS one, right? And he's like, you know what a TDRS is? And he's like, do you also know what it does? And I'm like, yeah, it provides communication from spacecraft to NASA's ground stations. Because before these satellites, people would just like have these ground stations on the ground. Dave (30:50.052) Yeah. Daniel (31:04.686) And you needed to be in orbit like more or less directly above them. And so they had like one in Hawaii and like a few in the US and then a few in Europe and Africa and Australia and whatever. And whenever you were out of range, which was about 70 % of your orbit, you would just be like, okay, no way to communicate. And these satellites, which were deployed mostly by discovery, actually, Dave (31:29.604) Oh wow, okay, so it took the satellites up that it then used. Daniel (31:33.166) Yeah, they were planned to be released earlier, but they had a few delays. And my headphones are kind of slipping off. So OK, I fixed it. And so yeah, and so he had a few T -dress stores, because they're not before. After he worked on the Space Shuttle, he worked on T -dress, which is, I'm actually going to make a note to link to T -dress satellites on Wikipedia as well. Dave (31:44.868) Can't have that Daniel. Dave (32:03.076) Mm -hmm. Daniel (32:03.31) And the first time they shot one of those into the orbit, it's like this is a geostationary satellite and the special just can go to low Earth orbit. So the special can go up to a height about let's say 400 kilometers. That is, I don't know, 250 miles or so. And then it has an additional rocket motor and that fires and that brings it up into geostationary orbit, which is like thousands of kilometers above the Earth. Dave (32:19.876) Mm -hmm. Daniel (32:33.87) And so that motor didn't really properly fire. And so they had like a whole, like, yeah, so sorry, how they would like then with the tiny onboard motor that the thing has, would they over the course of many, many months, kind of coax the thing slowly into its intended orbit. And I love these kinds of stories. Dave (32:51.3) Oh, yeah, okay. So it gets it up there, but then it's like, hey, you're just gonna have to wait. Daniel (32:54.574) Um. Daniel (32:58.606) Yeah, because kind of what you do is then, like there are different points in an orbit where it's like energy wise, especially efficient to apply thrust. It gets you the most bang for your buck kind of. So you always wait until the satellite is in that exact position and then you turn on the engine for a while, but not too much. So you can do that, but it just takes ages. And so yeah, it was so impressive. The thing is incredibly huge. Dave (33:07.172) Yeah. Yep. Dave (33:16.644) Mm -hmm. Right. That's awesome. Dave (33:27.524) Yeah. Daniel (33:27.822) Like you cannot imagine how huge, like it, I've seen it before and even then I was like looking at it, like I was just like struck how huge it is. Like the engines at the rear, hang on, I gotta clear my throat. Dave (33:45.796) I'll probably clip you, me either. Daniel (33:49.55) Sure. The engines at the rear, they are... I could stand in them. Like, I could stand upright in them, in the opening, in the throat of the engine, and yeah, would just... I couldn't touch all the sides, basically. And just the fact that this thing has so many... Like, you see all the scratches and all the different, like... Dave (34:14.532) Yeah. Daniel (34:18.862) just the different residue, the residue that all the landings like the thing, I think Discovery was in space about 37, 38 times. And all that built a patina basically. It's just like, oh, this thing that is bigger than a bus was just in space so many times. And then like, just like re -entered at orbital speeds and it's just so huge. And yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I was just incredibly impressed. Dave (34:47.428) That's awesome. And I guess you sort of look, look at it in the state it's in now. And it's like, wow. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's definitely done. Done a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, for listeners, Daniel zooming in and it's got some, yeah, quite the patina there. Um, that's, that's. Daniel (34:48.238) and I had so much fun. Daniel (34:57.006) is gently used. Daniel (35:08.718) It kind of looks like, you know how on the highway sometimes, regardless of if there's a speed limit or not, like you're on the high -speed lane and then suddenly from behind comes up an old white van. And that van always drives half of light speed and wants you to move over really quickly. And that's the color it has. Dave (35:23.972) Hehehehe. Dave (35:29.028) Yes. Dave (35:34.596) Okay, is that the fan that quite often has Clean Me written in the back of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which honestly, I think they might have got mad at you if you did that to the shuttle. Daniel (35:38.414) Yeah, exactly. Daniel (35:48.206) Hahaha. Daniel (35:52.206) Yeah, I also bought a souvenir. Hang on. I bought... Dave (35:56.484) This is very much the show and tell episode. That cup is awesome. Daniel (35:58.894) It is the Sean Teleposit. It's a cup and it has rocket engines at the bottom and it kinda is reminiscent of a Saturn V rocket and it says rocket fuel on the side. Dave (36:04.932) Mm -hmm. Dave (36:12.164) Love it. Dave (36:16.516) Wow, wow, that was quite the slurp. Oh, well, Daniel, I, that is lovely to hear about and I'm insanely jealous. Absolutely. That looks like that was an awesome trip. I haven't been anywhere, done anything too, too much to catch up on other than screenshots this last week, although I did. Yeah, go on. Daniel (36:16.686) I apologize. Daniel (36:38.19) Oh, but I do have one question, yeah. Because you posted on Mastodon about a pretty wild setup. You posted about a pretty wild setup where you had a record player on the one hand, and then on the one end, and on the other hand, you had homepods, I think. Like, how? How does that work? And why? Dave (36:52.484) Mm -hmm. Dave (37:00.58) Yes, playing the audio off them. Okay, so challenge. Home pods, I'm using them as the speakers in my living room in stereo position with an Apple TV. And that's fine, right? I can stream Apple music or whatever through it as well as obviously it's running all of our movies and television and all the rest of it. And that's great. And I really quite like that setup, to be honest with you. The sound isn't amazing if you're an absolute audio geek, but for me, it's very much good enough and... just works, it's nice. And so anyway, I have a record collection. I'm not quite a vinyl nerd, but every now and again, if I see an album that I really love the cover of or there's a favourite album I want to keep, then I'll buy some vinyl. And the record player I had was absolutely terrible. Right? So it was at the risk of damaging the things it was playing. It was cheap and nasty and... Anyway, my wife bought me a record and I realized I didn't want to play it on that old piece of not so good equipment. And so we upgraded the record player as well. And it's a fairly entry level, like Audio Technica belt driven record player. Decent brand. You know, certainly not going to be as good as a direct drive and all the other bells and whistles you can have. But like it. in the in the Daniel (38:36.526) I love that record player nerds have the same discussion as like driving wheel nerds. Oh, belt driven is not as good as direct drive. Dave (38:46.276) Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like anything though, right? You can always pay more for more. Anyway, it fit the job, we could get it, that's fine. But, ah, okay, how am I going to listen to things on this? And, you know, okay, I've got a couple of choices at this point, right? I can, I don't know, just listen to it on some Bluetooth thing, because the record player's got Bluetooth. I could put some... old speakers I've got and an amp and set that up in the living room and figure out space for more speakers. What I ended up doing instead is that I've got a Mac Mini running under the TV as a home server and so this is where it becomes this sort of Byzantine routing thing. The record player comes with a 3 .5 millimeter stereo out. which can be turned into a line out or a phono out, right? So you can run it either way in that way. Came with that cable that then broke off into two RCA connectors, the white and red things that, you know, typically you'd have plugged into the aux port or whatever on the back of another system. And I was looking at all of this and going, well, the Mac mini's got a microphone, technically. Daniel (40:12.11) Hehehehe Dave (40:13.06) It's got a microphone port technically buried in there, right? So the Mac Mini has a single port for headphones and microphone input. And that's a three and a half millimeter jack. And it differs from your standard three and a half millimeter stereo jack because it has four rings instead of two. And what that means is that it carries the audio on the first two and then on the last bit it carries a microphone input. So you've got stereo audio out and mono audio in. That's the caveat on what I've got set up at the moment is that I've been able to plug another cable that's got the right connectors into the one that the record player came with. And it has a four pronged, like I think it's TRSS connector on the other end. Somebody who knows far more about this than me is probably going to message me and tell me exactly what I've done wrong here, but so be it. It was a... Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, please, please don't. It's working. I'm not really interested at this stage, but I've got a, uh, a video to, uh, RCA converter. And what this is set up to do is it's the same set of connectors with a three and a half millimeter jack on one end. But instead of carrying a microphone, it's got an extra connection for the video, right? For transmitting. Daniel (41:13.55) Message Dave. Message Dave. Daniel (41:41.038) Okay. Dave (41:42.564) video through these means. I don't know why I've got it. I've got a bunch of this kit buried away because of I play with video reasons. I pulled it out of this box and was like, I can connect that to that and then send the audio down the video line instead. And the Mac Mini will see it as a microphone. And it does. And that works, which it should, right? That's just a wire. It's just the connector and it's carrying it to the right bit. Daniel (42:00.654) And that works? Dave (42:13.028) So anyway, then now I've got audio from the record player into the Mac. Now I want to get it from the Mac to the Apple TV or to anything else that I've got hooked up to a HomePod. And there's many ways I could have gone from there, right? I was looking like, okay, can I run a little like IceCast server and then connect to it as an MP3 stream anywhere through anything that does that or what? And I'm like... Daniel (42:29.166) Hmm. Dave (42:38.116) Yeah, but I really don't like playing admin at that level for stuff I'm using all the time at home. And Rogamiba software company have a Mac app called Airfoil, which basically does exactly what you would imagine you want in this stage. And it'll take any audio from your Mac and then publish it so that one of their satellite apps can then receive it anywhere on the local network. Daniel (43:02.222) Mm -hmm. Dave (43:05.412) And so that's what I've done. I bought Airfoil, installed it. It uses the mic input with the record player routed through it. And then I'm using the satellite app on my Apple TV and that picks the signal up over Wi -Fi. So it's going audio out of the record player into the microphone input of the Mac through Airfoil, published out over Wi -Fi after being encoded, then decoded back on the Apple TV, then re -encoded to play out on the home box. Daniel (43:34.286) It's just, you know, an audio quality thing. It's just so much better audio quality than if you would just play it over Apple Music lossless. The sound is just so warm because it's so analog. Dave (43:48.932) Go away. I do not want to talk to you about any of that technicality here. Daniel (43:56.654) I love how, how yakshavi that is. Dave (43:59.844) It's so XJV, but do you know what? The fact that I can walk into the living room, put one of my records on, and then just sit down and play it through the speakers I'm normally playing through on the TV is like, it's so basic in terms of like, that's what it achieves, but it means I'm actually playing my records and I'm actually listening to them and I'm enjoying them and that's quite sweet. Daniel (44:25.198) I'm kind of making fun of it before, but I very much appreciate that part, you know, like the whole ceremony. The fact that you're deciding I want to listen to that album and then you put the thing, the non -virtual like thing that you can actually touch, you put it on and like start, like that's the totally cool. Like I love that. Dave (44:27.14) I know, I know. Dave (44:35.876) Mm -hmm. Dave (44:43.268) Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you look at the album cover, you look at the vinyl, I've got some that are colored vinyl. In fact, I played one earlier on. It was one of Alt J's albums and I completely forgotten that it was a colored vinyl. So when I took it out, I was like, oh, that's so sweet. You know, it's, it is, it's like making tea with proper tea leaves or anything like that. Right. Functionally, yes, you can skip to the end, but actually part of the fun is not skipping to the end. So. Daniel (44:48.942) Mm -hmm. Dave (45:12.804) Wow, that works on a couple of levels with a record player to be fair, but you do tend to listen in one go. But yeah, yeah. Daniel (45:16.558) Yeah, but like totally like the whole like that's what I mean by ceremony really like that's that is like something that I can totally appreciate. Dave (45:24.26) There's a side bonus to this as well, Daniel, which is that I can be on the other side of the house and I can play a record from the living room and I can use airfoil to just tune in from wherever I am in the house. And that's again, it sounds so basic, but quite often like my my younger son has a movie a day thing that he does. He watches a movie every day. He's got a streak that goes past over a year now. Daniel (45:37.582) Yeah, you can. Daniel (45:53.646) That is damn impressive too. Dave (45:53.956) Yeah, yeah. But so quite often on an evening, if I want to sit in here and code, the TV is dominated with stuff in there anyway. So I can play a record and I can listen to it while I'm in the other room and they're doing their thing and my records not bothering them. So that's it. Yeah. Daniel (46:13.422) Oh, well, does that work then? Because like if your kid is watching a movie on the Apple TV, oh, because it's published by the Mac mini and so it doesn't need to be picked up by the Apple TV. Oh, okay. Dave (46:22.468) That's right. Yes. Exactly. Exactly that. So it's a side benefit and I'm kind of justifying the act shave, but you know, it's working in a way that, like I say, it's letting me play my records now, which I wasn't doing before because I had a piece of shit record player and all the rest of it. Daniel (46:31.758) Hahaha. Daniel (46:43.086) Yeah, I get that. Daniel (46:47.15) I get that. And also, I don't know, I like that you're doing this just for your personal enjoyment. It doesn't have to be efficient. It doesn't have to be better. It doesn't have to be, I don't know, you don't have to measure the success of this. This is just what you like, and then you have something that makes you happy. Dave (47:02.916) Yep. Yep. Exactly. And, and, and, you know, there's a, there's an upgrade in the future where I will get a USB based audio input for the Mac mini instead. Um, and then I will just plug the record players, um, or cable effectively into something else. And then that will come through. Then I'll get stereo, which, you know, that might be nice. Um, and it will cut out some of the, the, the, you know, the crumbiness of it. Daniel (47:25.998) Hahaha. Dave (47:32.804) But, yeah, no, it's working really, really well right now and I'm happy with it. So, yeah, anyway, shout out to Airfoil. It is good software. It just does exactly what you want it to for that sort of thing. The only thing is I've raised a feature request with them because I want them to use ShazamKit so that they can detect what I'm playing through the microphone. Daniel (47:32.846) the Byzantine routing. Daniel (47:50.126) Hahaha. Dave (48:01.988) and then display the album artwork on the Apple TV app. Daniel (48:04.782) Ahahaha, that would be cool. Dave (48:07.108) Yeah, yeah, that's one one last little bit that I would love them to have. But. Daniel (48:12.046) be really cool. Yeah. I have not so recently, like a while ago, I decided I'm going to try to avoid rogue Amoeba stuff as much as I can because not because their software is not high quality, their software is very high quality, but because they have this policy where they don't want to use or they don't want to run on new operating systems. Dave (48:22.244) Mm -hmm. Dave (48:36.612) Yeah, yeah. Actually, that's and that's something we've encountered from a podcasting perspective. At one point I was using their audio hijack software all the time for recording the podcast. And yeah, it's a bit of a pain because sometimes when you want to be on the latest, then you're out of luck. You've got to wait. The other thing is, is that for audio hijack, you have to turn off one level of the security to get it there. kernel thing to work and pick up the audio properly, which felt a bit not good for me. But their software is very good quality and Airfoil I've been very, very impressed with. Really hope they take my feature requests seriously and add it because I'd love it. But anyway, yes, that's my record player side quest in the middle of our show. I can now play vinyl and listen to it anywhere around my house. Daniel (49:09.998) Yeah, basically. Daniel (49:36.11) I love it. I love it. Dave (49:36.932) Quite a happy middle -aged millennial. Daniel (49:39.822) with good music taste. Dave (49:44.516) I like, I like what I like, but thank you. Daniel (49:48.718) Like listeners, every now and then Dave will send me a link to a piece of music and usually I really enjoy listening to it. Dave (49:56.9) Oh, well that's nice. And I'll link one of the playlists, so maybe. We'll see if I remember to by the time the show goes out. But it is, it's gonna very link every episode. But yeah, why not? Let's put one of those in the show notes. Daniel (50:05.326) This is going to be a link -heavy episode. Daniel (50:14.318) All right, cool. I think that is the end of the Link Heavy episode. Dave (50:15.588) Daniel. Dave (50:19.126) I think it just about is. I was going to say that the boot is on the other foot right now because it's my evening. I could totally keep going, but it's your morning and you've been up early for the Grand Prix, haven't you? Daniel (50:24.973) No. Daniel (50:32.142) It is, yeah. The Grand Prix, I never miss it, it's the Grand Prix, I never miss a Grand Prix. Dave (50:39.492) Brilliant. Daniel (50:41.358) which is a meme I see a lot on Formula One TikTok. Yeah, it was a nice Grand Prix to watch, even though the end result was to be expected. Not to spoil anything or anything. Anyway, thanks so much for listening. Please rate us on iTunes and or YouTube. Please send us emails at contact at waitingforreview .com. And Dave, where can people find you? Dave (50:57.284) Fair play. Dave (51:10.052) You can find me on the Mastodons over at @dave@social.lightbeamapps.com and you can find my apps over at lightbeamapps.com. Daniel (51:23.63) All right, also follow me at @daniel@social.telemetrydeck.com and also go to telemetrydeck.com for the best analytics that has like a tiny space robot as a logo ever available. Dave (51:42.98) Absolutely brilliant plug. I, uh, no, no, not at all, but not only that, your privacy first. And I want to say really, really easy to integrate into anything you're building. Daniel (51:44.238) No false advertising here. Dave (51:57.317) But this isn't an infomercial though, Daniel. I'm not going to advertise telemetry deck any more than I might normally do. Even though I do love telemetry deck. But it's been lovely talking to you, Daniel. And yeah, look forward to catching you again soon. Daniel (52:12.814) Yeah, see you soon. Byeeeee!