Daniel (00:01.966) Hello, good morning, it's the return of Gravely Dan. Hey Dave, how's it going? Dave (00:07.503) Hey Gravely Dan, how are you? Daniel (00:09.358) I'm more nasally Dan today I think. Actually. Dave (00:13.615) It's not the return of the return of the nine horn Daniel (00:17.71) The nine horn also spoke very nasally, that's true. Yeah, no, I'm on the tail end of a cold, not too bad, but I took a few days off. And it was frustratingly annoying because having a cold is one. And I'm not just not used to having colds anymore these days. So apologies if my voice is still a bit off. Dave (00:38.703) Yeah, yeah, I know that feeling. Dave (00:45.103) Oh, well, it's good to see you in any case, Daniel, and I hope you're feeling a bit better than you were. I don't think we'd be talking if you felt as bad as you were the other day, so. Daniel (00:54.446) Yeah, no, it's steadily going upwards, finally, because this thing took ages. Actually, this is still the same cold that I brought from the States. I just kind of ignored it and tried to work through it, and that was my mistake, and then it kind of flared up again. Dave (01:04.975) Oh, yeah. Dave (01:11.695) No, speaking. Daniel (01:12.718) So folks, if you are sick, go to bed. Do not work. Dave (01:19.503) No, do not pass go. Daniel (01:20.654) Do not create shareholder value. Instead, do not produce content. Instead, produce t -cells. Dave (01:28.335) No. rest. T -Sales, yes. Man, you said flare up. That's been my life over the last couple of weeks as well. So my ongoing bell with sort of chronic pain, long COVID, flared up. So yeah, we've both been through the walls a bit in the last week. I took a couple of days last week to just rest as well, which was incredibly necessary. And I don't know about you, Daniel, but I don't rest very well. Daniel (01:40.142) Oh yeah. Dave (02:03.247) Right? So it takes me, I have to be quite ill to A, take time off from work to be ill. And when I'm then taking that time out, instead of going, Oh, we are now needing to rest. The first bit of my developer, our indie dev brain suddenly goes, Oh, my to -do list. I've got all this time that is in front of me that I could just look at things. Um, which you know is not the right way to be off sick. So anyway, I sat on my hands a little bit and actually rested and now I'm feeling a lot better for it. So lesson learned. Yeah. It's a... Daniel (02:44.91) Oh, that's very good. Oh, that's really good to hear. But I'm the same way in that way. Like I wanted to do awesome stuff on the weekend and just have like a tiny bit of fun and that didn't work out. But also like I was working so, so much, like not for indeed per se, but like for a geometry deck and my like work -life balance. Dave (02:56.239) Mm -hmm. Daniel (03:13.454) not even work -life balance. My work -life balance is pretty good actually. It's just that both are so, so much. So I'm going full throttle all the time. And so it was really hard to make myself rest as well. But once it really hit me and I was properly sick and then I kind of laid down and was like, okay, I'm just gonna rest. Dave (03:20.943) Hehe. Daniel (03:37.806) Once I accepted that I had to rest, it was really nice actually. Like not as in my, like my body was like, didn't feel good, but my mind kind of, you know, like had a break for a while. And so I didn't, for a long while, I didn't even think of, I thought of work and I had a, like a bad conscience because like my to -do list is huge and getting like bigger every day. Dave (03:41.807) Ha ha ha. Dave (04:00.463) Mm -hmm. Daniel (04:03.726) You know, like as soon as you're off sick and then the next five emails are like, oh, this is not working. Hey, can you please check out this? And then the server is like, ding, ding, ding, I'm broke, I'm breaking, I'm breaking. So yeah, but like, I don't know, once I really put my head on a pillow, I didn't do anything except watch TikToks, watch about 14 ,000 hours of content on YouTube. Dave (04:15.247) Yep. Daniel (04:32.91) and sleep. Oh, and I watched a TV show. I watched Fallout, the Fallout show, but I can tell you about that later, I think. Dave (04:35.599) Yeah. Hey. Dave (04:42.159) Yeah, definitely. And Daniel, I'm aware that we're a few minutes into the show already. Daniel (04:48.27) Which show actually? What show is this? We should do an intro or something. So, hey, welcome to Waiting for a View, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for a view. And now you know. Dave (04:53.007) An intro would be a good idea. Dave (05:14.191) Bye. Dave (05:19.151) Well, it's definitely good to be speaking to you again, Daniel. The one thing all of this that we've just spoken about does is it throws our schedule all over the place for recording the show. As well it should, you know, like this stuff takes priority, but... Daniel (05:28.014) Oh yeah, it was horrible, horrible. Daniel (05:36.142) I mean, on the one hand, I'm like, oh, this is annoying because we committed to let's do weekly recording and then it kind of doesn't work. And that makes it more complicated. On the other hand, this is kind of the third tier job that we have. Your first job is your joby job and then your second job is like Govj or Lightbeam apps. And then your third job is this podcast basically. Dave (05:58.479) Exhaled. Dave (06:06.639) I think so. I think so. And I try not to think of the occupation. Yeah. Yeah. Pastime thing. But yeah, you're not wrong. It has to be in that order. But yeah, it's good to be recording again and it's good to be the other side of various health that's involved. And I'm glad you're getting better on your side as well. Daniel (06:08.622) or let's say occupation. Dave (06:33.455) This is, this is part of life. This is part of what happens. And you've just got to roll with it as stuff comes up really. Um, like I say, I'm terrible at rolling with it. Daniel (06:43.886) You Dave (06:45.935) But yeah, I'm looking in our show notes, Daniel. We've got some items marked off as follow up. So yeah, let's do it. Daniel (06:54.67) Oh yeah, we're doing follow up now because I actually have follow up. All right, follow up, two pieces of follow up. The first one is about my server stories, which is I was trying out running my Druid cluster outside of Kubernetes in just a bunch of VMs. And then they were all, they were still kind of dying all the time. And I was like very confused because I didn't really get anything in the logs. The logs were just like, hey, I received a kill signal or an abort signal. So I'm shutting down and I'm like, by whom? Whomst half sendeth the, you know? And I was like, okay, if this was in Kubernetes, then I would have expected the host thing to be like, okay, this thing is using too much memory. I'm going to kill it. But. Dave (07:36.495) You The thing of... Daniel (07:52.622) This is on a VM, like on just a regular machine. So what is happening? And so I was like aimlessly searching around on the internet. And then I finally come across a thing. Like I was combining various like weird keywords, like Java, memory usage, Java program getting killed with minus or sick abort or whatever. Turns out there's a thing on Linux that is called the OOM killer. Dave (08:16.463) Mm -hmm. Daniel (08:22.734) the out of memory killer. And I'm like, wait, what? I went to VMs because I just want to go deep into swap if I have to. I don't want to be killed if I use all the memory. But yeah, it is apparently a thing. I need to research into it. For now, I just noticed, OK, this is a thing. And it will actually kill processes that use too much RAM. And. Dave (08:23.023) Cool. Okay. Dave (08:32.079) Yes. Dave (08:51.247) Okay. Daniel (08:51.694) I need to read into how to configure it because I'm pretty sure that these machines are configured in a way that they don't automatically have swap space, which is probably not a good idea. And also, I want to look into A, how can I add swap space to these machines? And B, how can I actually configure the OOM killer to be less hostile, less deadly? Yeah. So. Dave (09:22.063) Okay. That's, I mean, it sounds, it sounds nasty that OOM killer. Sounds like a comic book villain or something on a, on a newspaper front page. The OOM killer. Yes. It also reminds me of, of what we have on iOS where memory pressure and that sort of thing can, can nuke apps. Daniel (09:29.358) Yeah. The OOM, the OOM killer. Daniel (09:45.71) Yeah, I was expecting this about this on iOS or something, but not on a Linux Ubuntu VM, but yeah. Whatever. This is what I found out, so I wanted to share the next step in this exciting adventure with everyone. The other, yeah. Dave (09:52.815) Yep. Well. Dave (10:03.183) Well, I was going to say we need to add this as follow up to the follow up, which will be how you fair taking on the Oom killer. Next time we talk about it. Yep. Daniel (10:13.838) Yeah, like stay tuned. Like and subscribe. If you listen to this on YouTube, you should subscribe right now and you should also press the like button and also this little bell. And then you will know immediately when we upload the new episode. If you listen to this on any other show, on any other podcatcher, you should definitely do the rating like Raiders five stars. Dave (10:25.423) Mm -hmm. Dave (10:37.295) Always be silent, Daniel. Daniel (10:39.758) No. Always be closing. I like that you actually added to our show notes where I wrote down something like, oh yeah, this is called, there's something, I encountered something called an OOM killer. And then you added, that sounds nasty. And I mean, it does. Dave (10:44.943) Mm -hmm. Dave (10:59.535) Yes, it does. It does indeed. Daniel (11:03.31) Yeah. The other piece of follow -up is last time you made a rude hand gesture at me. Yes. And then I said something about, you made the reverse V sign at me. That's apparently the name. And I made a joke about archery. I said something like, oh yeah, you are showing me that you are capable of still doing archery. And because I was like half remembering, Dave (11:10.319) I did, yes. Yes, I'm not gonna do it again. Dave (11:19.567) I did, I did. Dave (11:24.719) Mm -hmm. Dave (11:30.895) Yes. Daniel (11:33.134) a thing where I was pretty sure that someone told me once that the gesture was invented by the British after being invaded or after the French tried to invade and then were repelled by the British archers and so they made the gestures to show basically that they still had two fingers that would be able to draw a bow. Apparently, according to this Wikipedia article that I'm linking in the show notes, Dave (11:45.231) Mm -hmm. Dave (12:01.807) Hehehe. Daniel (12:02.382) There is no proof for that. Like that is one of the, one of multiple origin myths of this gesture. And, but there's no, like there's no actual proof or historical document or anything where it actually says that. So might've been, might've not been. But the Wikipedia article also has multiple images and pictures of famous people doing the sign like Winston Churchill. Dave (12:04.687) Okay. Dave (12:22.383) Okay. Daniel (12:31.726) and David Bowie. So that's also kind of nice. Dave (12:32.175) Yes. Yeah, the Winston Churchill one's kind of funny. We've got Robbie Williams there as well doing the same gesture. It's definitely obviously a British thing. And yeah, Daniel, I apologize for any insults in the moment. For any... You were indeed, you deserved it. Fear, fear. Daniel (12:40.782) Yeah. Daniel (12:50.062) Oh, but I was slandering you. Daniel (12:54.766) Yes. So like no need to apologize. Dave (13:02.415) But maybe I should stick to more universally understood insults next time as well. There's a hierarchy. There's a hierarchy of insult, right? So the one with two fingers, certainly where I was in the UK growing up, is slightly less severe than the one with one finger. Daniel (13:25.39) Yeah, and also like for the non -brits, it's even better because it's so obscure. It like doesn't hit as hard. It's just like, it's just a funny gesture, you know, even if you know the meaning, it doesn't hit so deep, you know. Dave (13:38.863) Yeah, yeah. Whereas obviously the middle finger is definitely reserved for, well, what is it reserved for? It's reserved for when you get caught up by somebody driving dangerously, perhaps, is where I might use some sort of gesture like that. Daniel (13:54.286) Ha ha. Daniel (13:57.742) You wouldn't do it in Germany because you can get sued in Germany for slander, actually, if you show someone the middle finger in traffic. So Germans will either circle their finger along their temple or just wave with the whole hand. That contains a middle finger, you know, but less obvious. Dave (14:02.895) Ha ha ha ha! Dave (14:13.295) Yeah. See you. Dave (14:17.775) Right. Dave (14:24.239) Do you not get something in your eye occasionally? Daniel (14:30.638) Or that, yeah. Dave (14:32.655) Oh. Mm hmm. Yeah. Daniel (14:33.294) Speaking of slander, we got feedback. We got feedback. Actually, I got feedback on Macedon by Michael License, who writes, Daniel, you took almost zero time to turn Waiting for Review into a slanderous podcast. So I think you may have had it planned ahead of time. Dave needs to keep a close eye on you. Yeah, I totally had that. No. Dave (14:58.607) me keeping an eye on you keeping an eye on me. Daniel (15:01.966) As long as, as long as you don't disconnect again, you know, like if you disconnect, it's like my podcast, you know. Dave (15:07.855) Yeah, yeah, fair, fair, fair, fair. I need to check my router logs. What were you doing? Daniel (15:11.182) I don't know, but this is just the bit, you know? I've been doing that for ages. Whenever someone in my friend group leaves the room, and when they come back, I just pretend to finish a sentence about them or something like that, just to make them mad. Dave (15:21.647) Mm -hmm. Dave (15:30.895) Well, I'm looking further down the rest of this conversation and you were asking, you're asking Michael if he was asking if you're an XZ level state actor. And I mean, that would be, that would be quite a level of foresight, Daniel. Yeah, for sure. For sure. If we ever announced that we're releasing some sort of new, some new library, some new repository or something on this show. I'm going to be double checking that library, Daniel. Daniel (16:01.39) Please, please do. Yeah. No, that's the, that's the long con, you know, just go in a podcast with someone and then in on the off chance that at some point you'll be like, Oh, I can't get this, you know, kernel level video, VJ app to run properly on the government machines. Daniel can you take a look? And then I'm like, ha ha ha ha. Finally, my time has come. Dave (16:06.671) I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Dave (16:22.351) Yep. Dave (16:28.975) time has come. Dave (16:33.423) No. Yep. Oh, crikey. I'm. Daniel (16:33.486) Now I promise I am not a state actor. But that's probably what a state actor would say. Dave (16:41.327) I'm not even a state object these days, damn. Daniel (16:43.406) Ha ha ha! Daniel (16:47.534) I'm just I'm just an actor Dave (16:48.751) Speaking of which, I am deep in the wrapping up of Govj3 to get it out the door. Yeah. Daniel (16:56.75) Yeah. Cool. So what does that mean? Like more marketing materials or bug fixing or both? Dave (17:04.143) A bit of both. So I think when we last spoke, I was talking about getting some content together. And we spoke about, you know, I was using Blender to make some new video loops to ship with the app. I'm on the other side of that now. I've done enough for me to feel happy that I can release it. And it has enabled what I was blocked on before, which means I can now go and... and take screenshots and get those together and all of that. So that's cool. I've cleared pretty much all of my bug fix list. So that's even cooler. That was yesterday. And yeah, so where am I now? I have posted a little video recording to the socials over the weekend. So to Instagram and off to... Daniel (17:43.182) Fantastic. Dave (17:59.503) Facebook and all the other places that people that use my app tend to be. That's the start of the marketing. So it doesn't feel like it. It was just a video of me noodling around and kind of saying this is me playing with the beta and blah, blah, blah. But yeah. Daniel (18:03.982) Mm -hmm. Daniel (18:13.902) That's perfect, because that is the number one question that I always have when someone is talking about their app. And what does it actually do? And if I know what it does, how does it feel using it? And that's exactly what you're answering, so that's perfect. Dave (18:30.383) So yeah, I put that one out yesterday because that was an easy, relatively easy test to do, you know, sit and record your screen and kind of just go through. So that's where it's at. My next tasks are going to be very much around, I've got a test plan that I need to walk through with the older devices. And I've been kind of putting it off because I know I'm going to find something. And I know that that's going to be a bit of a rabbit hole. So. Daniel (18:48.206) Mm -hmm. Dave (18:59.727) I'm expecting to be honest with you, I've seen some of this whilst testing already, but there's a couple of areas with the app now that are quite resource intensive and I'm expecting to need to do something about that to protect users from from themselves at that point, because what you can end up with is you can end up with the device will get very warm. It can end up the frame rate of what it's doing will drop. There's a number of things that I Daniel (19:21.486) Mm -hmm. Dave (19:28.431) can do to potentially resolve that. And that's what I'm going to be testing through very shortly. So it's a bit of a once over to sort of say, well, OK, are there some lower quality settings or anything that I can do with this to then make it more useful on an older device that's struggling? And I got a solution in mind already, but you can see what I'm doing to myself here is holding off on solutionizing too deep before actually doing a proper critical assessment of the problem. So yeah, yeah. What happens though, Daniel, is I've tested it obviously, and I have used it on these devices a bit already and it works. But then when you add things into the mix like... Daniel (20:04.142) Ah, that's hard. But I'm proud of you. Dave (20:20.207) I don't know, say I've got some 4K videos and it's then downscaling them because it works in HD. Say you've also then got it doing NDI where I'm sending the video output over network. That's using the video encoder on the device. So that then chews up a bunch of its capability. When you plug all this together, you do see frame rate dropouts on the older devices. So. Daniel (20:48.494) Mm -hmm. Dave (20:50.415) Um, which we'll see solution would be perhaps to drop the frame rates of the streaming or not the frame rate, the resolution rather. Um, another solution may well be to, yeah, drop the frame rates at the moment. It's shipping a frame every single, um, refresh of the screen. And that's 60 times a second on most devices. It perhaps only needs to be 30 so we could. Daniel (21:16.014) Mm -hmm. Dave (21:16.911) So this is the sort of stuff, right? I've got to have a play with it and actually see what the tuning sort of looks like. There'll be some and then based on what that looks like, I will either build a feature or build some sensible defaults for it to load into. So. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to avoid having another settings menu, but I don't think there's a place where I come out of this without it, to be honest. Daniel (21:35.566) Yeah, that sounds good. Daniel (21:44.174) No, it'll just be an alert. And the alert says, your device is not awesome enough to run Govj in its full glory. So you're just getting 320 by 240 resolution. Dave (21:46.543) Mm -hmm. Dave (21:54.991) Oh, I mean, you know, pixels are very odd. Daniel (21:57.358) Pixels are in, pixels are in, you know? Like you made an entire pixel filter and everything. Pixels are cool. Retro is cool. Dave (22:03.343) I, yeah, yeah. Do you remember I had a pixel editing app? Well, a pixel filtering app that would, yeah. It's occurred to me I could resurrect it given the video pipeline I've now got, because that was actually the sticking point with releasing the app before. So maybe I'll go back Daniel, but not yet. Daniel (22:09.934) Yeah, yeah, I love that thing. Daniel (22:24.238) Mm -hmm. Dave (22:30.511) Not yet. Sitting on my hands. Need to get this release out. Yes. Daniel (22:30.958) Not yet. Not yet. Very good. I know it's very tricky. I feel it too, you know, when all the responsibilities you feel are tugging on you at the same time. And a lot of the time, it's very tempting to just fall into the thing that is the most pleasurable to do instead of reassessing what is the most necessary thing to do. Dave (22:45.039) Mm -hmm. Dave (22:54.095) Yes. Dave (22:59.983) That's it. That's it. And if I look at my release list annual, which I do have, I've got this in front of me right here. It's, it's exactly as I've just said to you. So next up after bug fixes is testing and on my notes, I've got run through my test plan with the oldest iPad and phone that I have. Um, and then after that we're into marketing and updating all the screenshots, which I can now do. Uh, and then yes. After that, we're into, OK, getting stuff ready for Instagram and Facebook to run before release, actually getting it submitted for review and all the other bits and bobs. So I'm getting there. It's taken a bit of a hit over the last couple of weeks because of obvious time and health related reasons. But accountability check in, I'm getting through the tasks. Daniel (23:55.726) Fantastic. That's the same reason why I wrote the roadmap sticker or sticker, like the roadmap that is on my wall over there. Even though I'm going to rip it up, actually, these days, because a few things have changed timing -wise. But it's still awesome to have it as an accountability thing where you're like, OK, no, but the next thing on the roadmap is this. Dave (24:07.599) Mm -hmm. Dave (24:24.207) Yes. Daniel (24:24.558) And so, yeah. Dave (24:27.631) Yeah, and I'm just trying to stay honest with that because this is the stage. This is the stage where almost anything other than that list looks appealing. You know? Daniel (24:38.222) I get it. I so get it. I feel the same right now. But oh well. Yeah, I don't know. Actually, if I followed the old roadmap, the next thing would be rethink the pricing system. And actually, that doesn't sound too appealing. And that is now out of the window because it turns out just like timing wise, I need to do Dave (24:45.199) Yeah. Dave (24:57.551) Mm -hmm. Daniel (25:06.99) work on servers first. And then I also, my next item on the new roadmap will be reworking the website. Because I think, oh, we talked about this as well last time. And I actually managed to talk to a few experts who, and one of them kind of took apart the telemetry deck website and was like, hey, you've got so much stuff on one page. You've got to spread that out, like one page for each feature. And then also, you've got to make the 12 personas, people who you want to be your customers. And one of them is indie developers, one of them is a product owner maybe, one of them would be a C -level executive, one of them would be just a corporate developer, stuff like that. And for each of those, make a separate landing page. Then they don't have to be huge either because my landing pages are like 12 meters long. That is about, I don't know, 36 feet maybe. And so instead, Dave (25:39.311) Right. Mm -hmm. Dave (25:48.207) Yeah. Dave (26:03.759) Yep. Daniel (26:06.542) to very small landing pages and just a lot of them. So I think that's the next thing on the roadmap. Even though I'd rather do features for the web application, I think the next item on the roadmap will be updating the website, getting more new possible customers into the top of the funnel, which is a... Dave (26:32.911) That sounds like the right focus to me. Yes. Daniel (26:34.638) which sounds very businessy and I hate it because it sounds so businessy, but it's also, it seems like the right thing to do. Dave (26:42.863) Yeah. I'm zeroing in on one thing you've said in that conversation, Daniel. So please forgive me if, if, if it's the wrong focus, but you mentioned 12 personas that intuitively feels like too many out of the gate to me. Daniel (26:47.886) wishes. Daniel (26:56.942) I thought the same thing. But yeah, that's the, I mean, like, I don't know if like, like, that's what he said. Like, of course it doesn't have to be on day one, but on day 12? Dave (26:59.631) Yeah. So. Dave (27:07.375) Yes. Persona Reta Daniel. Daniel (27:10.574) on the 12th day of, you know, I don't know. Like, we got to define them first. Like, off the top of my head, I could think of like six or seven. So if I can only like go up to eight or nine, then it doesn't make sense. Like, I can't, I can't like, you know, if I just invent someone who doesn't exist, then that doesn't make sense either. Dave (27:27.055) Not for the sake of it, no. So one thing I've. No, but one thing I was going to say is that I have a past in data analysis, customer analysis. And one of the things I did in that, when that was my day job, we were looking at customer personas for marketing. And if we could identify them in the data that we had of our customer base, so more of an introspective than an outwards funnel kind of thing to begin with. Now, Daniel (27:52.91) Mm -hmm. Daniel (27:58.382) Oh yeah. Dave (28:01.199) One of the things with that sort of segmentation is that we were, we were encouraged by, by, well, I was encouraged by my head of department at the time that any activity focusing in on a persona, you don't target it immediately, like literally just for that persona. Like that is it's, it's, it's starting points. And then if you imagine you've got a graph that you're able to plot the different personas on. And for listeners, I'm moving my hands around in a somewhat not meaningful way, but clearly it's there in my head. You'd have a graph with all these personas on and your activity for things like advertising and that sort of stuff should kind of, if possible, try and be hitting a midpoint between a couple of these personas potentially. So you sort of get two for one on the blast radius. Yeah. Daniel (28:50.51) Oh yeah. I already named a few. I opened my notes in the meantime. One of them is also startups, then small and medium sized businesses. I have, hang on, data privacy officers or people who are generally interested in data privacy, that kind of stuff. Non -European companies who kind of want to go into Europe, but then are kind of afraid of the whole GDPR stuff. That kind of thing, you know, like. Dave (28:56.495) Mm -hmm. Daniel (29:20.494) So it doesn't have to be super different. And anyway, also a landing page for each feature. And we actually have a bunch of features. So yeah, that's the plan. Dave (29:24.175) Yeah. Dave (29:33.935) That's cool. Dave (29:38.223) Love it. And I think I can see how this could come together with your features. I think there's a possibility there. If you split out the individual features to having their own page, their own sort of highlight, it's also a target maybe later on to actually do something like you've had your webinars. So you might see within the features that you can then start to literally link webinars to those features as well. So it's like. Daniel (30:05.358) Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Dave (30:06.575) want a deep dive, hey we've got a webinar about this thing, or it's covered in this webinar, yeah, that could be cool. Daniel (30:09.614) Oh, that's a smart idea. Daniel (30:15.758) I was actually thinking, like right now, all the webinars we've done is like me interviewing someone about their special knowledge, which is of course incredibly valuable. But I think at some point, someone should interview me about telemetry deck, where I screen share and tell you everything about how does the filtering system work. I don't know. And then, because then that actually makes total sense, you know? Dave (30:44.239) Well, you could even run that as a bit of a thing, Daniel, like an event in the sense of not just, I mean, a webinar is an event, but I'm thinking you could run it as like an ask me anything kind of slot. Yeah. Daniel (30:58.094) Yeah. Yeah, it's just I don't want to plan that right now because there's so much on the plate. And I think concentrating on fewer things is better. I actually thought about pausing the webinars for a while. But I think right now they are giving value. So I think I'm going to continue them anyway. I don't know. By the way, the last time we spoke, the Dave (31:03.631) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Dave (31:12.847) Mm -hmm. Daniel (31:25.71) The newest webinar was in the future. It is now in our past. Localization best practices with Jihad Gündüz was a blast to record. That's kind of the last thing I did before succumbing to my illness. So I was pretty gravely in that webinar as well. And I was not like, my mind wasn't 100 % there, but it was a pretty successful thing. It is now finished. Like most work was actually preparing the notes. Dave (31:29.231) Yes. Dave (31:34.095) Mm -hmm. Daniel (31:54.03) beforehand, like with Jihad, just like a list of things we wanted to talk about. And then also just editing a little bit, like cutting out a few things that were just about managing the webinar, and then also a few verbal typos. And then I already created a Blender intro for the last one, so I just changed the text in that and re -rendered it. And... So through all of that intervention, but like still, it still cost me a few, like an hour or two, I think, or even three, but I was like compromised because I was doing it in bed on my laptop. I was like, at some point I was very bored. I had just finished watching the fallout show and then I was like, I gotta do something. I can kind of just like edit the thing, the webinar. It's not like mentally taxing or physically taxing. So, you know. Dave (32:33.583) Yep. Dave (32:54.031) Yeah, yeah, well you naughty boy there Daniel though, editing while you're in your sickbed. But I get it, it's not too intense. You mentioned the Fallout show. Daniel (33:03.086) I know, I know. Yeah, hang on. One more thing. I'm going to put a link to the webinar on YouTube into the show notes. So if you want to read that, I want to listen to that. It is just one click away. Dave (33:11.599) Mm -hmm. Dave (33:18.543) Awesome. Daniel (33:19.534) Yes, I did mention Fallout. I watched during my illness period, I watched half of Constellation on Apple TV and all of Fallout. So, yeah, both were nice for different reasons. Dave (33:33.551) Good? Awesome. It's on my list. I never really played the game. So I feel like there's going to be a bit that just goes over my head with it, potentially. Daniel (33:41.742) Mm -hmm. Daniel (33:47.15) I feel like it introduces the world very, very well for people who are not. Because I played Fallout 1, I think, or 2. I played a 2D Fallout game. So that must have been the first or maybe the second one. So that's like, I don't know, like an age ago. And then I also played Fallout 3 on the Xbox 360, I think. Dave (34:04.303) Mm -hmm. Daniel (34:16.27) And so that's the first of the modern Bethesda Fallout games, basically. And then I also dropped out. And both of these games that I played them is kind of long ago, so I forgot a lot. But the things I remembered was a certain feeling and vibe. And that is very well transported into the show. And what I also remembered is I was really sick of the ink spots. The ink spots is a... Dave (34:32.431) Mm -hmm. Daniel (34:46.222) 30s or 40s era American barbershop kind of quartet style band. And they play constantly in the Fallout games and they also play constantly in the Fallout TV show. And it's just always the same as the car. Come on, I need to listen to it. And it's it but it explains its its world very well if I feel like especially like for someone who is like, like because I definitely needed a refresher. Dave (34:59.791) Oh Daniel (35:15.95) So I feel like it's very, very good as an entry point into the whole Fallout universe. It has the same mix of absurdity, which is kind of usually funny, but with a lot of grimness, where, for example, people are just absolutely desperate and scrambling to survive. But then things get so absurd that it's kind of funny. And the same is also visually is also kind of the same. It's very colorful, very... Dave (35:28.783) Mm -hmm. Dave (35:37.935) Yeah. Daniel (35:45.326) very, very like, um, shining or shiny, but at the same time, it's incredibly like graphically violent, especially the first few episodes. Like there's like so much blood splattering everywhere. Um, so yeah, it's, it has lots of contrasts and I didn't know this before I started watching, but it's actually, um, made by, um, what's his first name, Mr. Nolan, but not Christopher Nolan, his brother, I think. And. Mr. Nolan's wife Lisa Joy, and these are the two people who made Westworld. And like once I recognized the name in the outro credits for the first episode, I was like, and then I kind of looked at it and it feels very like it has a kind of a vibe also from the first season of Westworld. So that's kind of nice. Especially there's like a cowboy figure and that very much reminds me of the man in black from Westworld, even though Dave (36:22.415) Oh, okay. Daniel (36:45.614) Um, like morally that copper figure is very different from the, but like, just like from the, how he moves and whatever. It's like, it's nice. So yeah, I think I can recommend it. One thing that kind of annoyed me was it feels like not too much, but sometimes it feels a bit cynical towards me as a viewer. Like, it's not like me and the show being like, ha ha, look at this. We're being cynical, but it's more like. It's more like the show saying, yeah, here, you can just take this. We don't care. And especially this is because this is going to sound super weird. The Fallout TV show feels too diverse. And this is an incredible hot take, of course. And if you told me this, I would be raising multiple eyebrows. What I mean is this. What I mean is this. Apparently, Dave (37:32.047) Oh. Dave (37:39.663) All the eye pearls. Daniel (37:44.11) AWS or Amazon Studios has decided or has decreed or whatever that every like roles, like all the roles need to be cast from a diverse set of actors, which is a very good thing for like, first of all, right. And so what that means is in that show is that everyone from the executives to the poor people, from the people in the future to the people in the past, Everyone everywhere has all kinds of very diverse regarding race and gender and backgrounds and stuff like that. And so that is at first glance, this is pretty cool. And I think I like it more than I dislike it. But what I dislike about it is the following that, especially the past where we flash back to every now and then is basically 1950s America. with all its, it has the red scare, it has like all its prejudices and whatever. It's just suddenly half of the people having these prejudices are black or are women or are non -binary. And it feels very weird because that is a very racist time in 1950s America. And... It creates a sort of dissonance. The message that kind of arrives in me is like, oh yeah, it was bad back then, but that it was not because of racism. Dave (39:09.647) Yeah. Dave (39:20.751) Mm -hmm. Daniel (39:22.318) or like people being afraid of gay people. Dave (39:27.503) Yep. So all these things then sort of feel a bit blunted or inaccurately portrayed. Daniel (39:33.678) Yeah, so the, I want to say the social criticism that the Fallout games have is, yeah, it's kind of blunted. That's a good word. Dave (39:43.503) Yeah. Damn. Well, that's quite a comprehensive initial review, Daniel. And I think I'm still interested. I'm definitely interested to check it out. Yeah. Daniel (39:50.19) Hahaha! Daniel (39:55.31) Oh yeah, like do watch it. I enjoyed it tremendously. It is also, I think, one of the best TV show adaptations that I've seen so far. Game adaptations, I mean. Dave (40:06.383) Yeah, the last one of those I checked out was The Last of Us, which I'm very much looking forward to. Yeah, I want... Daniel (40:11.342) Oh yeah, that's also incredibly good. Like I think I prefer The Last of Us even, but I mean Fallout is a very different like series of games and yeah, they caught that pretty well. One thing that I noticed is, you remember I have the new piercing, right? And I have a bottle of disinfectant or something that I'm supposed to spray on the piercing every three times a day. And that bottle is weirdly shaped because European spray bottles don't look like that. And the follow TV show gave me that thought, basically, that when you watch the Twolo TV show, especially in the PASC, basically, which is their version of the 1950s, everything looks slightly different. Like TVs and screens are way more rounded. Things have different brand names, that kind of thing, right? And when I watched that, it feels exactly like when I went to the United States, you know? Everything is kind of the same, but it's slightly off. Like, for example, these spray bottles are shaped differently and they spray upwards instead of like, Dave (41:19.631) Yeah. Daniel (41:24.206) literally. Dave (41:26.351) William Gibson described that in his book Pattern Recognition. There's a character in that, she's in Camden, London, but she's from America, I believe. And she gives it the description of mirror world. Like, things are the same but different. And I think that was down to the plug sockets and the light switches, that sort of stuff. Daniel (41:33.454) Mm -hmm. Daniel (41:45.582) Oh yeah, yeah. Daniel (41:54.318) Oh, that of course. American plug sockets are a thing. Like give me European Schuko -Stecker all the time. Or the British ones even, they feel very solid and safe and they have grounding in everything. Like American plug sockets, they feel like you're just putting the wires directly into the walls. Like, I mean, who cares? Dave (41:56.239) Yeah. Yeah. And then of course. Dave (42:05.071) Ha ha. Dave (42:11.087) The British, honestly. Dave (42:17.839) And New Zealand ones are somewhere in the middle, right? Which is what I've got got now. Certainly coming here from the UK. UK plugs now look like Duplo Lego, you know, gigantic blocks, huge absolute units of a thing. But yeah, no, these are the things that are different, but work the same everywhere. I mean, one way or another in terms of how you use them. Daniel (42:29.422) They are huge, right? Dave (42:47.983) And that mirror world effect is definitely a thing. So it's kind of interesting the TV show gave you a bit of that because it will be a very deliberate stylistic thing as well. Daniel (43:00.366) Oh yeah, and that's one of the things that I really like about the Fallout shows as well. Dave (43:06.575) We're quite in the weeds Daniel and that's okay. Like, you know, I think this show is, is part indie dev and, uh, uh, development chat and also part the Dave and Daniel show catching up. So it's, it's all good. Uh, I have one more thing before we wrap though, uh, just to, to talk about. Okay. Um, so I feel like I need to be wearing a turtle neck, which I'm not, I'm wearing a hoodie, but, um, anyway. Daniel (43:09.646) We are. Daniel (43:24.398) Oh, give it to me Steve. Daniel (43:33.806) Same thing almost. Dave (43:37.135) We spoke about my dilemma of what to name Govj Pro, how that would fit with the original app, because Govj Pro is the second VJ app that I plan to make after this, this version three release. So that's why I want all of this out of the way, because my, my next bit is like, well, hey, getting into building a new app. Govj Pro is a mouthful. It causes a bit of Daniel (43:43.31) rights. Dave (44:03.887) lack of distinction with the original app and overlap and gets a bit weird of like at the moment the in -app purchase is a pro unlock. So people are going to look and kind of there might be that vibe of, but I'm a pro subscriber to Govj so why can't I have Govj Pro? I'm changing the name. Very simply. I've landed on absolutely I want to go with the, so the name for the new app is Drumroll Provj. Daniel (44:25.646) Okay. Daniel (44:36.59) Nice. Pro VJ. Nice. So does that mean, or what is the distinction? Like Go VJ is now Go VJ, right? So there's the app for your phone that will allow you to create video backgrounds if you are a club entertainer. Dave (44:36.943) Heheheheh Dave (44:40.687) Yeah. Dave (44:47.055) Okay? Yep. Dave (44:57.775) Mm hmm. So that'll be the last distinction will be phone and iPad will be the sort of split like the pro app will, uh, certainly in my eyes at the moment, never come to the phone because it's going to be all about the bigger UI and everything that you can do there. Uh, so it naturally means that go VJ is the phone one, the portable one, the pockets edition, if you like. Yeah. And then pro VJ is like. Daniel (45:01.87) Mm -hmm. Daniel (45:21.486) Mm -hmm. Let's go, VJ. Dave (45:27.247) know, all the bells and whistles, all of the layers, all of the features, all of the UI. So it makes that distinction and it makes it obvious that it's a different app. I don't have that overlap. There's also a bit of an arrogance in the name, Daniel. Daniel (45:46.478) Yeah, because if I use Pro VJ, then I'm obviously a pro VJ, not one of those stinking amateurs. Amateurs. Dave (45:50.927) Yes. Exactly. And I think the first reaction I'm going to get from some people in the scene is going to be like, oh, scoff, you know, it's a, it's a, an iPad app. How is it pro? Uh, and I was thinking about this, like, yeah, how does it stand up against any of the pro software? And then it kind of occurred to me of like, well, a, they're not necessarily my, my customer base, right? Somebody who's got an iPad who wants to do that level of work is my customer base. Um, so people who are quite happy with their PC rigs or their existing Mac setups, you know, um, are, uh, probably not my immediate customers. And so that's okay. And then there's another part of me that is like, well, if the name on an iPad app makes anybody kind of think unkind thoughts as to its possibilities and its capabilities, um, my only reaction is going to have to be, well, load the app and give it a try. Right, so there's an inbuilt arrogance, if you like, to naming it Pro VJ out of the gate. Daniel (46:51.886) Yeah. Daniel (46:57.518) I like it, yeah. I mean, like you should be a bit arrogant or not even arrogant. You should be secure in your abilities and in the apps abilities. And from what I've seen so far, it's going to be an absolute banger. It's going to be very much, way much more powerful than the Govj version. So yeah, naked pro. Dave (47:07.567) Mm -hmm. Dave (47:11.503) That's the hope. Dave (47:19.535) Thank you Jean -Luc. On that note, Daniel, I think we should wrap the show. Daniel (47:22.382) Hahaha! Daniel (47:30.606) We should. My voice is still working, so we should end while it's still working. So thanks everyone for listening. Please rate us on iTunes. If you're listening to this on YouTube, please like and subscribe. Send us emails to contact at waitingforreview .com. And also Dave, please tell me where people can find you on the internet. Dave (47:53.647) You can find me on mastodon at Dave at social .lightbeamapps .com and you can find all about my apps just on lightbeamapps .com. How about you, Daniel? Daniel (48:05.55) Fantastic. Find me at daniel at social dot telemetry deck dot com and also go to telemetry deck dot com which will probably change a bit in the near future. All right, Dave, have a fantastic day. I'm going to have a fantastic evening. Have an absolute laser day. And I'm going to wave at the camera to say goodbye again. Dave (48:18.767) Brilliant. Dave (48:24.463) I'm Yes. Take care Daniel. Bye. Daniel (48:31.63) Bye!