Daniel (00:00) sequence starts. We are lift off. Wait, no, that's the other podcast. Dave, hi. Dave (00:03) Lift. Hi. Yeah. How are you doing Daniel? How's stuff going? Daniel (00:09) I'm good, it's fantastic to see you. I think I'm finally done with my server stuff, but I'm a tiny bit fed up with talking about it. And I think our listeners are too. So I don't wanna tell you anymore, except I think I've now cleaned all my data and I think I've now squared everything away and I've learned so much. So server is running again, very nice. Dave (00:17) Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. All's well that ends well, and no more thorns in your side. How about me? Uh, I'm still shaving that yak that we spoke about last week, Daniel. That's still happening. Daniel (00:37) How about you Dave? You're still shaving that hair. Dave (00:50) Yeah, so yeah. Daniel (00:51) Um, that was the yak of, uh, what exactly? Dave (00:58) That was the yak of... yeah let's think about this. That was the yak of gutting my app's codebase to remove the router design pattern. And ultimately will be the yak of then gluing everything back together with my new video pipeline that I've built the other month. And also gluing in my Lego blocks. Swift packages that I've built for things like a selling menu and stuff. Yeah. So it's on its way. Daniel (01:26) I like that. I like that, yeah. Make that yak nice and smooth, like a kid's butt, as the Germans somehow say. Dave (01:33) Nice and smooth clean shaven. Yeah, there's yeah, babies bum, I think in English. Strange phrase. Daniel (01:42) Yeah, anyway, hey, welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join our scintillating hosts Dave and Daniel and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for review. Alright, I have a topic that I brought to the show this time. I researched and prepared and I want to talk about Apple's DMA. Dave (02:03) Yep. Daniel (02:12) changes to the European App Store that are coming in March this year. And of course, that doesn't apply to everyone, but a few of the changes do. And even the ones that don't, I feel like things are moving. Things are in flux regarding how Apple manages the App Store. And I feel like there might even be... Dave (02:15) Okay. Yep. Well, I'm done with that. Mm-hmm. Daniel (02:39) more legislation might come in the US or other countries. And so I feel like it's good practice to see like what Apple is doing here and how it affects at least European developers and also like how it might change the landscape if it does it all. And so I got myself like a few notes and I'm gonna tell you all about like what is changing. And I want you to be like, to just like button with any thoughts that you have on whether that's good, whether that's bad, does it apply to you, stuff like that, right? Dave (03:12) Okay, I can do that. Well, this is going to border along the lines of a Dave Reacts video, I guess, for people watching on YouTube. Because I've largely stayed out the way of reviewing all the DMA stuff. Yeah. Daniel (03:34) Dave reacts. Dave (03:36) So we'll see. I'll try and, I've got zero poker face. You'll get an honest reaction from me. But also. Daniel (03:44) I want you to be like just like silently pointing at an invisible screenshot above your head tiktok style yeah good thing I already took a screenshot for the YouTube for the YouTube thumbnail earlier Dave (03:54) For people listening in, I'm... For those of you listening in via traditional podcast media rather than video, yeah, I was pulling faces then as Daniel was talking. So check out the YouTube channel. You can see me pulling faces. But Daniel, with all of this, I think just to preface before you get into it, like my understanding of all of this is pretty shallow because I've looked and sort of gone, well, I'm never gonna really be that bothered about putting something in a separate app store. well I don't do this or don't do that like I don't it doesn't affect me so I've kind of just sort of gone there apple's gonna do what they're gonna do but you're right in saying it's gonna set the scene for sort of future developments and changes as well I think that's probably quite true I think having even just a bit more knowledge is probably gonna be useful for me than otherwise so hit me go for it Daniel (04:56) Okay, so DMA is the Digital Markets Act. That's a new law inside the European Union that is passed and that goes into effect March 6th, I believe. And one of the concepts that this new law introduces is the concept of the core platform services. And that are services that the European Commission has decided to require regulation because they're important to the... the digital economy and concentrated in the hands of a handful of gatekeepers. And Apple has been designated one of those gatekeepers. And the European Commission has now created a list of core platform services into which three of Apple's products are actually falling. So in the operating systems category, we have iOS. And that is just iOS. That's not Mac OS. That's not iPad OS. That's not Vision OS. Watch OS. Dave (05:46) Okay, that's curious. Daniel (05:49) Nothing, like just iOS because like the market share, I assume. Um, then in the browser category, there is, uh, there is Safari. Uh, so Safari is a core platform service in the browser category. And then in the intermediation category, we have the Apple app store. Uh, I am a bit unclear whether, like, whether this means the complete app store or the, just the iOS app store. Um, Dave (05:57) Yes. Mm-hmm. Daniel (06:19) Like that what I found kind of talks about like I'll write it in the show notes if I find something after the show. But yeah, and so now recently Apple has announced a few changes. I'll put links to those in the show notes, like to the news post on Apple's websites and stuff like that. And these changes are kind of like worded in the exact same way as when Apple announces a new feature or announces the new iOS and it has this amazing new feature. Dave (06:27) Mm-hmm. Daniel (06:48) Most of these changes are just to exactly comply with the DMA. And so most of these changes are also only applicable if you are in the European Union. However, a few things are actually applicable worldwide. These are not huge, but first, a change that is worldwide, just a change with iOS 17 applies to everyone who listens to this and has an iPhone or other Apple device. Game streaming apps are not now allowed. Previously, Apple would say, for example, with Microsoft Game Pass, or if you have Shadow or Nvidia GeForce Now, Apple would say, okay, you cannot have one app and then that app emulates or streams in multiple other apps because App Review couldn't test all of those. So you need to make all the different apps or games in that case available separately as app store apps, and then App Review can test them. Dave (07:25) Mm-hmm. Daniel (07:47) And so of course, that's not happening. So game streaming apps these days usually run in your browser. Well, now game streaming apps are allowed. So Microsoft Game Pass and all the others can now be regular App Store apps, which is kind of cool. I don't think there's any downside to this. Dave (07:48) Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's an interesting play. I've got a couple of ideas as to why Apple might have done that. Um, I think number, yeah. Well, number one, well, my take on it is that there's, there's a bit of like, um, you know, if Epic, Epic were to come at them in this scenario, there's an answer there of saying, well, why don't you just run a streaming service, right? We're not blocking you. You, you go for it. Go do what you want to do. Daniel (08:10) Um, money? I don't know. What's your Dave (08:31) So I think there may be an angle in that. Also, I think there may be an angle in supporting the Vision Pro and that side of things as well. Yeah. If you think about the fact of the Vision Pro being this sort of big screen environment as one of its key selling points, the idea of being able to big screen in your games into that headset and actually play at a reasonable level of latency and the rest of it. Daniel (08:42) Oh, that would be cool. That would be really cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah, just connect your controller via Bluetooth or something and then yeah, that would be nice. Dave (09:03) Yep. So I could see a bit of that going on. I think that's probably some of the motivations there. Daniel (09:09) All right, in the same vein, but this might interest you, is the concept of mini apps. Mini apps are now allowed. So what are mini apps? Mini apps are, I think, like if I read this correctly and I double check with Mac stories and they basically say the same thing, plugins basically. So if you have, for example, a sound editing app, you can now offer any plugins and other functionality using like in a purchase, for example, and that content can apparently like just like also pull stuff from the internet or from somewhere, like it doesn't have to be all in like all unlocked, unlockable from the get go. So like technically that's kind of the same as video streaming, but I thought about you when I read this, because I don't know, Govj Pro might have some kinds of plugins at some point in the future, you know. Dave (10:04) Yes, yes. That's curious. There could be something in that for me with that side of stuff. Yeah. Daniel (10:09) Yeah. Right. Other small change is you no longer have to like, you're not forced to offer a sign in with Apple. So there was a set of rules before that said if you are if you have if you have a certain list of easy sign in providers for your service, like for example, if you have I don't know, any like open auth stuff, where you can just one click lock in like a login with Twitter then you also have to offer login with Apple. They've removed that worldwide. That's no longer a requirement. So now you can also, if you have, so the rule has changed to where, if you have such a situation, you can also offer, you are forced to offer either login with Apple or a comparable third party that is like highly trusted and privacy wise, like good. And my English is very nice. Dave (10:39) Mm-hmm. Okay. So if I read that correctly that means that I can offer signing with Twitter, GitHub, Facebook all of those sort of big ones but I can't issue Apple ID just to sign in with my small service that only supports my app. Is that right? So in that circumstance like it's yeah offer it through one of the big boys or offer it through Apple ID and whatever small scale login you've got. Daniel (11:43) Yeah, pretty much. All right, and then something that kinda is important to me, or that actually the reason why, that what made me start going into this more deeply is that Apple is now offering a new analytics and reports in App Store Connect. What are reports? Reports are basically a page of information about, for example, downloads, App Store page views. Dave (12:04) Right. Mm-hmm. Daniel (12:11) and framework usage. There are not a huge amount of detail yet, but they have a separate news item for that. Hang on, let me just open this. Engagement with additional information on the number of users in the App Store interacting with a developer's app or sharing it with others. Commerce with additional information on downloads, sales, proceeds, pre-orders, and transactions. App usage. with additional information on crashes, active devices, installs, app deletions, and more. Framework usage and additional information will be shared with developers in March. And of course, my ears are perking up when I hear this because I don't want to be Sherlocked with the telemetry deck offering analytics. But this seems very complimentary to what telemetry deck is offering. And here's the kicker. They will offer... Dave (12:55) Yes. Okay. Daniel (13:06) third party API access to that information. So that means, in theory, I'll have to check it out in detail. They haven't really detailed how the API will look like. But they explicitly say that here, developers will have the ability to grant third party access to their reports conveniently through the API. And basically, what that means is, I think, that I could, in theory, offer Dave (13:18) Mm-hmm. Daniel (13:35) like a connection between Telemetry Deck and the App Store, this App Store API, and then show the Telemetry Deck data next to that App Store data, which is really cool because like that data only Apple can really gather that data. And so if we combine that with the data with the data that kinda only Telemetry Deck can gather, we have more data and that's actually pretty nice. So yeah, I want to explore that further, but so far, the APIs haven't really been described more than a few sentences. And there's also a few quotes that John Forhees and Frederico Vittici kind of got out of Apple about those. But yeah, I'm actually pretty excited to see what those are going to bring in the future. Dave (14:26) I'm wondering out loud, did you see along the way any type of user ID or anything that might let you tie stuff from the Apple side to telemetry deck side, or is it just going to be blunt counts, the groups at a certain level that come through to you? Yeah. Daniel (14:40) I don't know, like no information available. I think I would probably have to try to not have a connection here because data privacy laws and stuff. But yeah, let's just see how it goes basically. Dave (14:45) Okay. Yeah. Yep. You'll still be able to show correlations and that might be useful. Daniel (15:00) Yeah, totally. All right, so those are all worldwide changes, so they apply to everyone. Then they have various changes that only apply to the European Union. And they will basically, they didn't say how they will enforce members of the European Union, but they said it's not just how you set your app store. So it's like, they said something like, if you are European and then take a quick. visit to the US, for example, you will not lose your apps. But if you have an extended stay in the United States, then you will actually lose your apps through other marketplaces. I assume, I don't know, like they didn't say, I assume it's like, okay, how, what, like your origin is set to a specific, your app store is set to a specific country. So that's the, that's of course the first thing, but I assume they will also try to, Dave (15:37) How are they gonna police that? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Daniel (15:57) correlate that with either GPS data or IP address locations, something like that. Dave (16:03) sounds not good, but okay, whatever it's their thing. Daniel (16:04) I mean, basically every video stream provider does these things, and they are pretty good even at detecting VPNs and stuff like that. So it might just be something like that, you know? Dave (16:17) Yeah, yeah, it just seems a weird thing to be policing, but okay. Daniel (16:22) Yeah, because they don't want the Americans to have the sweet, sweet European Union features that we get. Sweet, sweet European Union features such as other browser engines. So in theory, other browser engines are now allowed. They still need entitlements. Dave (16:36) Yeah, that's cool. Daniel (16:45) And so not, and they say they're going to be pretty stringent when giving out those entitlements. So it's not, not just like, um, you know, oh yeah, like you're just like saying, oh, I made a browser engine and then everything can, can do it. But like, they still say they are going to test the privacy standards and stuff on these things. Um, and Other browser engines, also other browsers. So the first time you open Safari on the new iOS 17.4, they will ask you whether you want to keep Safari or have a list of 13 most popular browsers from your area sorted randomly to switch to. They also are opening up, yeah. Dave (17:23) Mm-hmm. Okay. So sorry. Apple's going to advertise hot browsers in your area. Daniel (17:35) ripe browsers. Dave (17:42) Damn, damn, the EU is something else man, keep going. Daniel (17:46) Yeah, they are or they seem to be opening up the NFC chip in some kind of API ish way. So there's only a tiny bit of information here, but they say they are allowing alternative alternate NFC payment methods and wallet apps next to Apple Wallet and Apple Pay. So contactless payments through your. I don't know, Spal Kasse app or whatever. And they are also allowing in the app store, so if your app is just regulating in the app store, you can now use an alternate payment processor other than the app store. So, the thing that Epic wanted all along. But there's also another thing that is alternate app stores, or they call it alternative app marketplaces. Dave (18:33) Yes. Daniel (18:42) So on iOS, and that's on iOS only, and only in the European Union, you can now install an app, and that app is a marketplace. And so you open that, and then you can browse, you can browse for apps and say, ah, I want this app. Then you might have to pay through some form or whatever, but not through Apple. And then you will be kicked out through a webpage. The webpage will open Dave (18:52) Hmm. Daniel (19:12) What do we call that? A sheet. Yeah, we will display a sheet with information about the app and then you can say, install this app or not. So the marketplace is tasked with hosting and distributing the app. The apps must be notarized by Apple. Same as like when I'm on the Mac, for example, you still must get a notarization certificate and they do that so they can kill malware and stuff like that. Dave (19:14) Mm-hmm. Daniel (19:41) It's the app marketplaces task to ensure that the app is not breaking the law and is adhering to all the guidelines that you would expect. And users can set any of the marketplaces as their default storefront. So that's like if you like everywhere, do you say, okay, let's open the app store. You can just by default open the other marketplace. And one other thing, and that's pretty interesting actually, these marketplaces, they cannot, they need to be open to third parties. So that means if you are Nintendo, you cannot make the Nintendo App Store because then only offer Nintendo games. What you can do is open a games app store, but the apps stores, they need to publish a set of terms and conditions. Dave (20:28) Oh. Daniel (20:35) and then accept any app that falls under these terms and conditions, which, OK. Ha, ha, ha. Dave (20:40) That's interesting. So if you get barred from Daniel's app marketplace to put your app in there, that means that developer has got a recourse through Apple to say, hey, these guys are with these terms and conditions. They're not upholding them. This has been my situation. And that could then, I guess, call that license from Apple to operate the marketplace to be removed. Daniel (21:07) Yeah, something like that. Like, of course, as always, as with, like these are not laws, but with any kind of legislation-like things, you'll have to litigate to really know what they mean. So let's see. But for example, what could be happening is that someone, someone like, I don't know, like Telemetry Deck or Revenue Cat or one of those like Indie, like companies that are close to the Indie devs opens an Indie. Dave (21:18) Yep. Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:36) dev app market that only allows apps from developers that are smaller than X or whatever. No plans on my side by the way, but like, but like not everything has to be the evil juggernaut, like Facebook is opening their open market place and Spotify or whatever. All right, not everyone can open a marketplace. You, hang on, I have a quote here because they, Dave (21:42) Hmm. Yeah. Yes, I was going to ask about that because I think there's some detail, hey. Daniel (22:06) That's actually pretty interesting. Operating an alternative app marketplace requires significant responsibility and oversight of the user experience, including content rules and moderation processes, anti-fraud measures to prevent scams, transparent data collection policies, and the ability to manage payment disputes and refunds. Among the other limitations, only businesses organized or registered in the U can operate an app marketplace. and they must provide a letter of credit in the amount of 1 million euros from an A-rated or equivalent financial institution. 1 million euros. So remember that good morning quote that I posted on this telemetry deck account the other day. Like every morning I post a good morning message. Few days ago I post. Dave (22:31) Mm-hmm. One million euros. Ha ha Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:58) Good morning to all app developers who will provide Apple a standby letter of credit from an A-rated or equivalent by SNP Fitch or Moody's financial institutions of 1 million euros to establish adequate financial means in order to guarantee support for your developers and users. Yeah, that's where the code comes from. Dave (23:17) I mean okay I get it that's that is interesting though that's a bar of entry that will block a lot of people at the indie level out at least from starting you know Joe Bob's App Store Daniel (23:32) But I mean, it does make sense because you want to be able to, like, you want, you're like, if the, if the map marketplace starts and then goes bankrupt, like three months later, um, that kind of helps nobody. And then everybody's just angry at Apple. So I kind of get that. On the other side on. Yeah. Dave (23:44) Yeah. Uh, I just want to say like, if, if only, if only Twitter could be held to those sort of standards, the idea of like, um, you know, disputes and I guess, um, safety and that sort of thing is sort of being legislated by Apple here. Uh, it should be legislated on social media apps as well, to some degree by Apple, like policed at least. Um, yeah. Daniel (23:58) Yeah. I fully agree. Dave (24:17) but moving swiftly along. Daniel (24:17) All right, but I have one more thing actually. Hang on. So, yeah, this is about the new business terms. So we have the alternative markets, we have the different payment processors and we have the different work point changes. And Apple is basically coming to every single developer in the European Union and offering them a deal. They say, like, on the one hand, you can just like, everything stays exactly the same way. You can just keep the existing business terms, stay in the App Store, nothing changes, everything is good. Or you can request to switch to the new business terms. And the new business terms, once you switch to them, you kind of cannot switch back, as far as I can tell. And the entire fee structure changes. What fees are you paying to Apple? Dave (24:50) Chip. Yep. Daniel (25:18) So the fees will now be split up. First of all, you pay for payment processing. So if you don't supply your own payment processor, you pay 3% of each transaction to Apple for payment processing. Fine, like, which pretty free. Then you have Apple's commission, like the, you know, like how you pay 30% to Apple for each in the old terms. And if you are making under a million euros per... per year, you pay 15% to Apple right now. These numbers change if you switch to the new terms. The lower bound is now 10% and the upper bound is now 17%. Dave (26:01) Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Daniel (26:02) So you pay less Apple commission because everything is split up and that is just Apple's commission. That is how much they think it's worth to be in the App Store. But there's more because being in the App Store is even worth even more because in addition to that, you have to pay a core technology fee. The core technology fee applies to all apps, free or paid, in all App Stores, regardless if you're in the Apple App Store or in any other App Store. So... If you are in a secondary marketplace, in an alternative marketplace, you don't have to pay Apple's commission. But you do have to pay the core technology fee, and that is $0.50 per first annual app install over 1 million installations. So ignore the 1 million installations for a second. Basically, every one of your apps has users. And if a user installs your app, Dave (26:48) Oof, okay. Daniel (27:01) In a given year, you have to pay for that installation, you have to pay 50 euro cent to Apple. If they keep it for a year, after, yeah, and the first million is free, but then after that, you pay per install basically, which is very, very close to what Unity is doing these days actually also. Which is like, the Unity game engine is also going to like, Dave (27:09) After your millionth one of those, right? Daniel (27:29) pivoting to a model where they want their customers to pay by install. Yeah, and so that sounds like not much, like what is $0.50, but like your app better not be free. Apple says they have a huge infographic, and that basically says 99% of developers will have a better deal under the new rules. Dave (27:44) That's up quick. Yeah, that adds up quick. Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:59) 1% will have a worse deal. I don't really believe that. I also like, in my notes, it also says possible motive question mark. So in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, Apple wants free apps especially to stay in the regular Apple App Store. They don't have the, because they don't have the, like they don't, Dave (28:05) No. Mm-hmm. Yes. Daniel (28:27) need to go anywhere because they're not paying money to Apple anyways. And with the free apps in the Apple app store, Apple has more apps in the app store, which is what they want, of course, but also they can police them more closely, they can more closely check them for privacy violations and scams and whatever, which is like, especially free apps, like they are kind of the ones that will like then gather your data and sell it to the highest bidder or. Dave (28:38) Yes. Mm-hmm. No, I get that. Daniel (28:56) plastered with ads or whatever. So yeah, I think it makes business sense for Apple to make sure that as many free apps as possible are in the app store with its stricter rules. And so yeah, that's the whirlwind tour of the DMA changes that are coming to iOS 17.4. Dave (28:57) Yes. Okay. Hehehe TMO. That's very interesting to me, like, because I look at this and I'm sort of see, well, this may well be how it runs for the whole world eventually, depending on what other legislation goes through. I've listened to a couple of other, other podcasts, um, because yes, I do listen to other people's podcasts and don't just record my own, I know. Shocking. Um, but I've, I've heard a couple of other takes sort of saying that if the US's legislation gets anywhere close to Europe's, then that will just set. Daniel (29:32) Hmm. Oh Dave (29:52) tone for the entire App Store worldwide to some degree. Probably worldwide excluding China. That's a, as we had a guess, cause China's already got special rules for certain types of rules. But yeah, and so I look at, I look at what you're describing and it is potentially a preview for where things could go over the next year or two worldwide. So although it doesn't, I feel like it doesn't really affect me right now. I'll stay in the App Store. I'll keep... Daniel (29:55) Mm. Hmm. Dave (30:20) start selling my apps that way in Europe, because there's really not a lot of benefit for me in terms of putting in the effort to do otherwise. But it's good to get a view of it in case we do sort of go there worldwide and then that might shift. Daniel (30:34) Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, as before, like Apple has had to grant a few exceptions to their app store policies, like for example, the dating apps in the Netherlands. I don't know if you know that story. But basically there's a weird law in the Netherlands that makes Apple have to grant an exception to specifically dating apps so that they can provide their own payment processor. And so what they did, Dave (30:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (31:02) in that case and also in other cases is they have they make the dating apps apply for a specific entitlement and then once they have that they have to call a specific API and then in that specific API Apple will show throw up a huge sheet that warns you about the dangers of going into the open internet and saying that they cannot guarantee that they will not be scammed and basically giving them like a huge amount of scariness which shows just how petty Apple is. Dave (31:24) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Daniel (31:32) And I was 100% expecting only malicious compliance here, like before that came out. Like before all those, these changes came out, I was like, okay, Apple's going to be petty AF and just going to be like, okay, we're going to be going to do everything in our power to stay exactly where, like do exactly what the law tells us to, but in a way that is completely useless to everyone. And Dave (31:39) time. Daniel (32:01) especially they're gonna like still ask for the same amount of commission as the stuff like that. And I feel like actually they did not do that. Like it is still way better for everyone. Or for a lot of people, for most, most developers big and small probably to stay inside the app store. That's, that's just a given. But at the same time, the alternative app marketplaces, Dave (32:10) Okay. Yep. Daniel (32:29) do open a few outlets for app types that have been historically rejected. And I'm not just talking about porn apps. Of course, there will be porn apps. But what I mean is like you now have as a developer, at least in the EU, you now have more or less the guarantee that somehow you can publish your app when you start working on it, which is something that hadn't happened before. And also, I think that there are viable business models in... Dave (32:42) Probably yes. Daniel (32:59) these new business terms, even if you have to pay the core technology fee and even if you still have to pay Apple a commission of 10% or whatever. And I feel that that's pretty cool. Dave (33:09) Yeah, there's some interesting opportunities inside of it. For example, a unified, potentially unified Apple and Android payment, right? You could have one of these app stores potentially offer an alternative Android app store as well, which I think you can just do. I really don't know enough about that side of the world. Daniel (33:23) Mm-hmm. Dave (33:35) But I could see, for example, say if revenue cats were to open their own marketplace, and you've got a subscription through there, they may also offer the option for that subscription to be used and valid on Android with very, very little friction. Right? That feels like there's a possibility of somebody bridging the gap in those worlds. How useful that is, I don't know. It could be... quite useful for things like families with different devices. If there's something there where it's like, I paid this one fee and it's available everywhere. That could be, could be useful. If I take a step back though, Daniel, and I think about everything you've said so far, my initial take on all of this was like, yeah, this is a bit of a bad faith move from Apple. Like they could have made this easier. There's the scary banner things. Daniel (34:29) Hahaha Dave (34:32) Right. And I initially I reacted like you're saying expecting sort of petty AF. Um, and what you've described doesn't quite seem petty AF. Daniel (34:41) Yeah, it's just a tiny bit petty. Dave (34:45) Yes, tiny slice of their petty lives. But yeah, it's not a complete bust in that sense. It sounds like there's some opportunities inside of it. Daniel (34:52) And I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I feel like, of course, the usual suspects will have their own app stores. There will be a Google app store. I'm 100% sure. I'm reasonably sure there will be a Meta app store. And then, of course, Spotify has been raving against the app store for close to 10 years now. So I would be very surprised if they stay in the app store. But I mean, most people will probably stay in the app store. But these will come. Dave (35:13) Yeah, yeah that was figure. Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:33) And then I feel like some podcasters have, every time that the topic comes up, they say things like, okay, what will happen is, one must need app will switch to their own app store, like the Facebook app or WhatsApp in the EU, because every European has a WhatsApp account. And so Meta will say, okay, to download WhatsApp and to download all Facebook products basically, Dave (35:51) Mm-hmm. Daniel (36:00) You now need to go to the MetaApp store and the MetaApp store will just grab all your data. All the nice privacy protections that are not only codified by APIs, but also by app review will now be just useless because Apple only checks for malware and if you just Dave (36:19) Yes. Daniel (36:30) to your data collection scheme, then it's fine. And that might be the case, but on the other side, we still have the API based protections. Those are not as good as API plus actually a human looking at the things, but still I think they are worth something. And I think... Dave (36:37) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (36:56) Apple will even try to bolster these. Like with iOS 17.0 back then came a lot of changes to APIs. Whereas before things were only enforced by app review, and but now things are actually enforced by APIs themselves. And maybe that was even a preparation of this move. But either way, like your privacy is still like more or less protected. And especially because Dave (37:14) Yes. Mm-hmm. Daniel (37:26) Other platforms don't have astringent of reviews as app review. Android exists, the Mac exists, and they're generally fine. If you have someone in your life who's not computer savvy at all, it might be a good idea to advise them to not go to alternative marketplaces. But Dave (37:37) Yes. Daniel (37:54) If you are a little bit savvy plus good APIs, good user interfaces of the operating systems, you might just be fine, or you will probably be fine. Let's hope I'm not eating my words in a half a year. Yeah, so I think it will be bad for privacy, but it won't be catastrophic. Dave (38:02) Mm-hmm. We'll see. We will see how this plays out. I think this is going to be... Yeah, yeah, like I said, I think there's gonna be a bit of a cycle on this as well. Like companies will try and do things, maybe Apple will then turn around and say this is actually against our RTs and Cs and that we might cut you off here. That could be a thing for sure. That's interesting and it feels like Apple's kept just enough control around this all that they can weigh in. and protect the consumer if they want to. Whilst also re- Daniel (38:47) Which is the right move in that situation, I feel like. I feel like they should have made that move like a year ago and just not fallen in the situation where they were forced by legislation to do that and just loosen the controls enough so that they still have control over the platform but enough to make everyone be content basically. And now, I mean, they have lost. Dave (38:51) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Daniel (39:15) some control over their platform, definitely. And that is because they were too stubborn to give up control, like just on their own terms. And now they're giving up control on the European Commission's terms. Dave (39:17) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, and I certainly read this update from Apple and all of this stuff. I read it as, yeah, they're complying, but as little as they can. And again, it sounds like that's not quite the case. It sounds like there's perhaps they've done a little bit more here than just the basics. But it sounds interesting. I sort of feel like I really wish this was global. and that we could start to see some of the competition it might bring. So I'm trying to give you a bit of a Dave reacts thought off the top of my head, just because of like, you know, where we started, but, but yeah, seriously, I feel like, um, yeah, this, this needs to be, uh, global in one way or another, I think, so that everybody's got this sort of access now. I've seen plenty of hot takes from people in the States who, uh, sorry, American. Daniel (39:59) Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure, please. Dave (40:28) listeners, but it has seen seeing some of the takes that some people in the USA are very much like, kind of blown away that they don't get first refusal on some of these potential good things, like a sort of a bit of astounding, a bit of amazement that the EU could be its own place and have its own rules and that Apple will have to adhere to it. And I've been kind of amused by that because, like, Daniel (40:44) Hmm. Dave (40:56) yeah, there is a bigger world than just the States. And so it's kind of interesting to see that side of stuff playing out as well. This is like, well, Apple can't just take on the EU and go, now we're gonna do it our way. That's what this has proven. It's proven that ultimately the, you know, the state that the EU is, the mix of states even. is strong enough still to exert some control in this way and to advocate for what the user is asking for. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And again, I expected malicious compliance over USB-C. I expected like a dongle in the box or something. So that was definitely a win. I put all of that to one side. Like, yeah, I still feel like there's very limited benefit of this to most indies right now. Now... Daniel (41:24) Also use PC. Dave (41:49) That picture might shift. If, for example, Revenue Cat got in amongst it, then I could see that being quite good. I could see there being opportunities for indie devs in that regard. But we're going to need some of these alternative marketplaces to actually exist. And people are going to need to try things out for size. It's going to be an interesting year in that respect. Daniel (42:18) I feel like, so if this stays in the EU, I feel like it will only be used by very large companies who have just the bandwidth to publish two versions of their app, like one for the rest of the world and then the EU market version that is distributed to a separate marketplace. But for example, if the US Congress or whatever says, oh, the Europeans have this nice law and it makes Apple do what we want them to do, because I feel Dave (42:25) Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Daniel (42:46) like there is. pressure in the US 2 to force Apple in that direction. And if they just copy paste that law and say, hey, chat GPT, change a few things. And if they basically apply the same or very similar law so that this thing is now in the US 2, then it might spread even further. And that, at the latest, will then the combination of other browser engines and Dave (42:57) Yep. Daniel (43:16) you don't have to do app review anymore will just lead to a lot of like electron based apps, but for your phone, which is going to be horrible. At the same time, I think it won't be that bad because, or I hope it won't be that bad because like Dave (43:26) Yeah, potentially. Yeah, that would be horrible. Mm-hmm. I hope not. Daniel (43:42) iPhone users especially are kind of used to a certain level of quality from their apps. So they might be electron apps or Flutter, but like whatever I'm saying, Flutter apps exist. Like apps written with React Native exist already. They are on your phone. And either they have the quality you want to or you don't, but they do usually have the performance you want. So like you could already write JavaScript apps for your phone right now. Dave (43:48) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:11) even if you have an iPhone. So, sure. Not my cup of tea, but I totally get why people do it. Like quick aside, Telemetry Deck, by the time this episode launches, actually, Telemetry Deck now supports both Flutter and React Native, natively, with their own SDKs, which is pretty cool. And I get it because if you are a smaller team, Dave (44:13) Yes, I feel so motivated. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Yep. Daniel (44:40) and you're writing an app and you don't have the bandwidth to write it for two platforms or even three if you include the desktop. So I kind of get it from a product owner's perspective. At the same time, I hate it from a user's perspective. Dave (44:52) Yeah, same from an iOS dev craftsmanship, excuse me, finding some words difficult at the moment. Sidenote, I have had a little bit of cosmetic dentistry recently, so my bite feels a bit weird. So yeah, anyway, Matt, that's why I may be mangling my words today. But anyways, the thing I was delving into tools like React Native because they don't want to spend so much time building out the native experience. Like my reaction to that is make a web app, make a PWA and go from there, right? Test your waters that way first, sort of feels like where my head ends up. But again, I understand why they don't because they want presence in the app store and want to be able to ship this thing and all of that. But yeah. Daniel (45:47) Yeah. Dave (45:52) Yeah, that's interesting, like seeing how this may all add up. The alternate browser engine side of stuff could be quite incredible. Actually that could be changing. Daniel (46:06) I actually think that is the least change, like in my opinion. I think the changes that the alternative browser engine thing will bring is there will be a native Firefox implementation, a native Chrome implementation, and a native Microsoft Edge implementation. But that's going to be like these three apps will be different. But every single other company will be like, yeah, but like our... Dave (46:24) Mm-hmm. Yes. Daniel (46:34) like existing web applications and our existing web-ish based applications that are written in React or whatever, they already work on the iPhone. Like, and we're not going to for just like the EU is not small, but it's not going to be more than 50% of their revenue or their user base. So they're still going to have to like have to deal with their existing app base anyway. And they're using, they're using... Dave (46:44) Mm-hmm. Yes. Daniel (47:03) How do I say this? Like, they're using these cross-platform techniques to not manage two apps at the same time. So they're not going to want to manage two apps at the same time. Dave (47:12) No, that's true, that is true. Daniel (47:14) And so I think maybe there's a black swan coming out from nowhere at some point and be like, oh, this enables a thing that no one has foreseen. But Dave (47:26) Yes. Daniel (47:28) Yeah, I don't see things changing so much there, because it's just left to the EU and not to the whole world. Dave (47:35) Sure. Yeah. The other thing I remember about that actually was, I came across something saying that if you do use an alternative browser engine, that is the only way you can browse web content in your app. So you can't mix and match WK view with Daniel's web view, for example. Yeah. And I think there's still a whole bunch of privacy and security. Daniel (47:57) Oh, makes sense. Dave (48:08) like rules around those things as well. So, you know, I mean, in theory, you can't just build a an alternative browser engine and then use that to get all of the all of the data through that you might not get otherwise, like tracking how a user goes through flows and that sort of thing. I'd be very interested to see how Apple polices any alternative browser engines, to be fair. Daniel (48:26) Yeah. Me too, like it doesn't go into detail here, but it feels like to me that Apple will actually review those alternative browser engines. And yeah, you have all the API securities that the iOS brings you. And then also, this is in the EU, the collection of states with one of the stronger privacy laws. Dave (48:39) Yep. Mm-hmm. Daniel (48:58) where you have to at least ask in various ways for permission to do stuff. So. Dave (49:06) That makes sense. It makes sense. So you still got these checks and balances going on. It doesn't sound awful. That's the thing that really gets me with all of this. Like my initial reaction was like, yeah, what do I need that for? And this is Apple being like, you know, dragging their feet against what's been asked of them. And it sounds like, you know, yeah, they could have made some of it a bit more open, a bit easier, you know what I mean? I think my hope was more for sort of like a more Android like Daniel (49:16) Hahaha Dave (49:35) sideloading situation where I can download my IPA from wherever and then just install it. Daniel (49:38) Yeah. Dave (49:45) That to me would have been spirit. Daniel (49:45) Yeah, something like that. Like in my view, the perfect view would be like, I said something like a developer mode and then I can just download a notarized app. But I mean, that would remove even more control from Apple. And I think that's why they don't wanna do it. And also like, if I give them the benefit of the doubt, like maybe they're actually, there's some good in that regard because way more people are using phones than are using computers. Dave (49:52) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, I would. Daniel (50:14) And people are just used to trusting our phones. Like that's why the scams that are there are so much, like are working so much more better than on your computers because like somehow people just trust what's on their phones, right? And they trust that nothing is like hurting them or collecting their data or whatever. And so like, I mean, that might actually get a bit worse with that, but not as worse as would be when, if you could just like install any app from the internet. Dave (50:14) Yes. Yeah. It might. Yeah, that's true. That's very true. It will be very, very interesting to see how this one plays out. I can foresee a whole bunch of... I can't foresee, but I do expect unforeseen circumstances and consequences of this to play out over the next year or two. It's going to be very interesting with like, yeah, less tech savvy people and how they interact with this as it comes up. Daniel (51:00) Oh yeah. Dave (51:14) I can imagine a couple of personas, if you like, in terms of the less tech orientated person dealing with this. So I can imagine somebody who just sees it goes, oh, that's scary. I will not touch that at all. And then somebody who sees it and goes, YOLO, I'll install every single alternative marketplace, check out all these apps and not really think about any of these things, privacy data, whatever. Yeah, and then it's so it will be interesting, like I said, to sort of see how it plays out because this is not it's not only going to fragment things from a dev point of view from putting the apps in the app store, it's going to fragment things a little from the user experience points of view as well. For example, if meta was put all of their apps in their own app store, and I had to install that Maybe I don't install any meta reps, right? It's like, mm-hmm. Daniel (52:16) You say that, but then your dad only writes you through WhatsApp and suddenly you can't talk to your dad anymore. Like, that's how they get you. Dave (52:22) Yeah, it is how they get you. It really is. And obviously my response is not typical. I tend to sort of be like, well, then I don't speak to you via that medium, right? And I sort of go, yeah. But yeah, no, you're right. There's a lot of people who install stuff just to be where other people are. And that's fair enough as well. But I think, yeah, no shocking reaction from me other than I am now. perhaps feeling a little less negative about it. Like I can see there being opportunities inside this somehow. I think so. I think there's opportunity here. Like with any change, there's opportunity, but yeah, this, we're gonna have to keep an eye on this. See how this actually plays out. Daniel (52:57) So that's your final thought. All right, cool. Dave (53:12) I would really be keen for a revenue cat store. So I was gonna say, I would be really keen for a revenue cat store, for example. I love them. Daniel (53:12) Yeah. All right. I have also a final thought. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dave (53:21) Yeah, we'll see. But give me your final thought, Daniel. Daniel (53:23) Right. Yeah, final thought is when the apps were opened, they had this thing where you could have ad hoc distribution of apps. And that was just for inside a company, you could put an IPA file on a web server and then distribute that app directly through you. And that was just limited to a limited number of installations just for internal use basically, which was pretty cool. And then came along a little company. Dave (53:43) Mm-hmm. Daniel (53:52) called TestFlight, and they were like, hey, we can build something on top of this that will actually change how we develop and distribute applications. And that happened. And actually, TestFlight got bought by Apple and is now part of App Store Connect. And I feel like there will be another TestFlight. Something will come out of this that we hadn't seen before, that we maybe can't think of right now, because we're not thinking in the right configuration. Dave (54:05) That's right. Yes. Daniel (54:21) But something new will come out of this. And I'm actually pretty excited to see what actually that will be. Dave (54:29) Same. Very, very much so. Daniel (54:31) All right. Fantastic. It's good that we're in agreement. I think then let's end the show here while we're all in agreement. David has been fantastic to talk to you or to talk at Dave (54:33) Um, cool. We often are. Yep. It's been interesting Daniel, there's a whole bunch of things in this I wasn't really so aware of, so thank you for that. Daniel (54:55) Tiny lectures with Daniel. Where can people find you on the internet and give you more information about the Digital Market Act or the changes in the App Store or their opinion on this? Dave (55:02) Mm-hmm. Wow, yeah, okay. You can definitely find me on Mastodon and the Fediverse at dave@social.lightbeamapps.com Please don't add to me too much about the DMA, but yeah, quite happy to chat with anybody about it. And if you feel very, very strongly about stuff, you can always contact us via email, which is contact at Daniel (55:24) Hahaha Dave (55:38) And yeah, you can find out more about my apps and things over at just lightbeamapps.com. But how about yourself, Daniel? Daniel (55:48) Yeah, find me at daniel@social.telemetrydeck.com. Also check out Telemetry Deck, the perfect, most private analytics and usage data platform there is at telemetrydeck.com. As they've said, contact ad waiting for review for your emails at us because we'd love to hear from you and hear your questions and your comments and how you think the app landscape will change under the DMA. Thanks for listening. Please rate us on iTunes, send us emails. And that's it from me. Dave, have a great day. Dave (56:21) Catch you later, Daniel. Daniel (56:23) Byeeeeee!