Daniel: "We have another countdown. I just, I trained for that just two days ago. Happy New Year Dave. I'm good. I'm still a bit tired because we were like, I don't know, like meeting friends and playing charades with them. And it was like super fun. And we went outside, watched the fireworks and then..."

dave: "Happy New Year Daniel, how you doing? Yeah. Excellent."

Daniel: "did some more or sure aids and weird party games and it was nice but it was very late so I think I'm jet lagged"

dave: "Yeah, I could tell it was quite late for you. Because you were messaging later in my day and we're 12 hours apart. And I was like, hang on a second. Isn't Daniel normally asleep by now? Oh, yeah, it's New Year's. That makes sense."

Daniel: "Ha ha ha! Yeah. Like, you posted me a message. You're like, okay, I'm already. What did you say? I can't I can't find it to find it right now. But you said someone said something along the lines and lines of by the time Daniel starts drinking, Dave already has a hangover."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, that would be true if I drank very much at all, but I did have a little drink on New Year's actually. I had a whiskey and that was quite nice."

Daniel: "That's fair. Yeah, other than that, I like I had my family here for a week, or part of the family, as I want to say. Um, and that prevented me from really playing KSP a lot, which has been a topic for the, uh, for the last show already, but, um, I've, I've been playing for two days straight, basically. And it's so good. This game has a story now. Like there's actually spoilers that I don't want to say on the air."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha!"

Daniel: "And I kind of forget the forgot the time. So I just looked at my watch. I was like, oops, I have like half an hour until we record. So I needed to bring back my Kerbals home and land them safely and whatever. But they're all safe."

dave: "Okay, that's what counts. That is what counts. I remember with the original game and my kids playing it when they were much younger, they had several Kerbals orbiting the Earth on a very long orbit, I guess. Basically just floating out there in space stuck forever."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm. Yeah, that will that will happen. But then the rescue missions, you kind of build yourself like, oh, I need to build another spacecraft to get out there and bring the original home. Like, that's half the fun, right?"

dave: "Yep. Yeah, if I mention it to them and tell them that they've still got Kerbal stuck out in space, there's that slight twinge of ancient guilt sort of spreads across their faces."

Daniel: "I used to have this mod where you needed to pack enough snacks and oxygen and like life support systems would need constant energy. So if your solar panels break, your Kerbals are done for. And that was a bit stressful, but like Kerbals are fine. Like you can just leave them for a year. It's just stuck out in space."

dave: "Mm-hmm. You can, the light dragon tic-tac-toe degrades in that respect."

Daniel: "I mean, yeah."

dave: "But for anybody who doesn't know, Kerbals are the little green men who you have as like pilots in Kerbal space program. And you shoot them up into space inside of your, the rocket that you build or whatever craft. Yeah, and it is very, very easy to end up with them stuck up there, out there."

Daniel: "Yeah, exactly."

dave: "Oh god, now I feel guilty and I never even played it. Uh... Ha ha ha."

Daniel: "It is. So far in this safe, I have no Kerbal stuck anywhere. I had to mount a few rescue missions. Anyway, hey, welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic Kerbal space program player lifestyle and the indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for a view. Hey, Dave."

dave: "Hey Daniel."

Daniel: "Are we talking about anything else except little green space aliens?"

dave: "We probably are. We probably should, to be fair. So I'm trying to think of what I've been up to since we last chatted. And if I look back at our show notes of the previous show, actually, before I talk about anything, I should probably apologize for my audio on the last episode for anybody who caught that. Big shame. Yeah. I used my AirPods rather than this microphone."

Daniel: "Shame."

dave: "Because we had technical difficulties once again, I've since discovered that my audio input that I usually record on the audio interface I've got only seems to be picked up by this Mac on one USB-C slot in particular, which is on the back."

Daniel: "Yeah. Okay, so explain the setup. So you have your microphone is plugged, I assume via XLR into a audio interface and that audio interface is plugged in via USB into your computer, right? Okay."

dave: "Yes. Exactly, yeah. And the audio interface has a, like a, it's like, I call it like a printer USB cable, right? It's got the fat one going into a USB-A plug, which then I've got then got going into a USB-A to USB-C converter and plugged into the back of the studio. If I plug..."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm. But the conversion has never been a problem before, right? The A to C."

dave: "Nah, and the conversion isn't a problem, but if I plug it directly into one of the USB-A sized ports on the Mac Studio, it doesn't work."

Daniel: "Mm hmm. Oh, so you, so the Maxudu still have has USB A, A ports. Oh, that's interesting."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think it's the studio as such, I'm really not sure. This is probably some sort of strange chipset disagreement thing going on in the computer. I have no idea. I've tried it with different cables, plugging it through the front ones with the converter, different converters, and it was just through pure chance. I was like, I'll just plug it in this one on the end and it's like, oh yeah, it recognises it. So it could even be software for all I know."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "But yeah, so if anybody has any particular insights into why a Tascam US 1x2 audio interface wouldn't work with a Mac Studio, I'd love to hear it because it's absolutely confusing to me as to why it's not working. But it is working now. So that's, that's good."

Daniel: "Hmm."

dave: "And hopefully we don't have to suffer air pod quality audio coming through into the recording, because although it's good enough for us to speak, it's not good enough really for you all to listen to. And yeah, I'd rather not. It is. It really is. But moving on from that, thinking about what I've actually been up to since we last spoke. Well, when we last spoke, it was just before Christmas."

Daniel: "Yeah. Audio quality is so important."

dave: "and I put up my landing page for Govj Pro. So that's been cool. I've had, I think, getting on for nearly 30 people subscribe."

Daniel: "Oh, wow. And that's like, that's, there's just like just around Christmas where people are maybe not as online as they usually are."

dave: "Yeah, yeah. So that's cool. I mean, it's not a runaway success in terms of like hundreds of loads and loads of people signing up, but it's a reasonable number for when it was put out there. So that's good. I've had a bunch of good contact from people as well, sort of in the VJ scene, as it were, sort of expressing their interest in terms of being like beta testers, which is cool."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "I set up a second mailing list because what happened was that people were messaging me on Reddit actually, of all places. Reddit seems to be where I've had the most traction with all of this. And they were messaging me saying, hey, when you're ready for beta testers, let me know. And I replied to one guy and said, yeah, that's great. I'll add you to the list. And"

Daniel: "Okay, so the second mailing list is for beta testers basically."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I've done is after I said, oh, you know, that's great. Just drop me a line with your email address. Bunch of other people saw that post and started messaging me directly saying, hey, I'd like to be a beta tester too. So, yeah, 30 subscribers to the mailing list, but about eight beta testers in waiting made themselves known. Yeah. So I..."

Daniel: "All right. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, you usually have to divide those numbers by 10 or so, but even then you have like three potential customers and 0.8 potential beta testers, which is nothing to sneeze at."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Not at all. And I'm really like I said, it's an indication of, of initial interest rather than the overall market, right? You've not hit everybody all at once with those posts. Um, yeah. So that that's been quite fun just to sort of see that coming through and to have some of that contact and I've had some feature requests and that sort of stuff come through as well. Meanwhile, we've hit the break."

Daniel: "Hmm. Mm-hmm."

dave: "and I have been adding stuff to my video pipeline. So that's also been fun. So I've now got camera input working and I've also added NDI in there as well."

Daniel: "Okay."

dave: "So NDI, I believe it stands for network display interface."

Daniel: "And what's NDI? Ah, that's the thing where you can like display your video on another in another app basically on another computer, right?"

dave: "Yeah, so you can send the video feed over network and it is a protocol, it's a proprietary protocol actually which I would normally be a bit adverse to but it's a bit of an industry standard and what it is that it's focused on being incredibly low latency so it's uh and it's used all the way from you know fun little vj setups which tends to be what I'm playing with where people are just mixing video for the audio for whatever's going on. All the way through to people using it in broadcast situations with dedicated cameras, proper wired networking switches, you know, you name it. So it's a really flexible protocol, and like I said, it's used in broadcast as well as at this level. So I've added support for that at a very basic level. I've got a node that when you connect anything else to it, start sending that output over network to anything that can register an NDI feed. So that's been very fun."

Daniel: "Awesome. I can't imagine."

dave: "Yeah, so I've got, with that I was testing, and I put a video up actually the other day where I was sending video from my iPad over network to my Mac and the latency is really good as well. Like if you look at the video, there's the slightest sort of delay between what the iPad's doing and what you see on the Mac screen. And you can pause the video and see, but it's very slight."

Daniel: "Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. Yeah, it is impressive. I remember that. We'll post a link to the show notes to that post-Massodon. Which like latency, like video compression with so little latency is just like really like magic. And it's so helpful too, because I use, a lot of the time I use a tool called Tuple."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "to basically pair program with people, with my coworkers. And that is very optimized for reducing latency. And that's really, really impressive. Just like you type on another person's computer. So your keystrokes go to that computer and then the image of the letters appearing needs to come back, right? And it's damn near instantaneous. And that is just really, really cool."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "And of course, I also, I play Kerbal Space Program on a service called Shadow, which is a Windows PC in the cloud, because I don't have a Windows PC here, which I wouldn't be adverse to putting a second computer here, but just like the, I don't want to have like another keyboard and mouse and whatever, and like definitely no other screen and my"

dave: "That's awesome. Ha ha Yep. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "doesn't really support Windows PCs. And so, yeah. It's just very convenient and you pay per month. So anyway, I should get away from the topic of KSP. Anyway, NDI."

dave: "NDI and low latency video. Yeah, it's, I mean for me it's potentially a bit of a game changer for everything I do with these apps, right? And that it then means that what I've done can be connected to all manner of other things."

Daniel: "Mm."

dave: "And that goes all the way through to sort of, you know, professional big boy VGA software, if you like, like media rig, um, media server, uh, kind of software."

Daniel: "Can it also accept NDI video? Like as a source basically?"

dave: "That's the next bit I've got to build. So it will. So in the last two or three years, NDI have added support for ARM chipsets for being able to decode the protocol. And that has opened up the ability to receive NDI on iOS."

Daniel: "Fantastic. That's really cool because then basically I take my iPad with like Govj Pro or whatever like the nodes end up in and I can just like have the whole iPad be a node in a larger network of things, you know."

dave: "Yeah, so... Mm-hmm. Yes, yes and it means if I want to do spin-off apps sort of focusing on a particular thing, you know for example I've been thinking about ideas where I sort of basically make a video synthesizer of sorts using shaders. I can, as long as I'm using my core image filter based node format effectively for the output, then I can just plug NDI on the end."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "very, very easily now with the library that I've built. So, you know, and then that opens up that software to them being part of this ecosystem as well. It's, uh, it's definitely an enabler. It, and I love these, that sort of thing, you know, where something, it becomes bigger than it is. And, uh, yeah, like I say, the ecosystem thing becomes a good thing."

Daniel: "Yeah, that is really cool."

dave: "there's a world where, you know, somebody might decide to buy that, that prospective video synth who has no interest in running go VJ, but they will use it with their other VJ software because that has NDI input, for example."

Daniel: "Hmm. Yeah. Don't forget, like I have to be that nagging voice now. Don't forget to market that feature and have that feature on your landing page. And, you know, like not, don't, don't spend all the time writing the cool feature, but also tell people about the cool feature speaking from, from like, you know, like to myself as well."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Oh yes. Mm-hmm. 100% but I mean... That sounds like the voice of experience there, Daniel. Is there anything in particular you're thinking of that eliminates that?"

Daniel: "Well. I'm just still in that mode where I'm like, I really, really want to write cool software. And it turns out that just like having like or running a business is more than just have just the cool software. And friend of mine asked me like ages ago, like, do you want to do this for fun, like just for your personal pleasure? Or do you want to make an actual business out of it? And that should and the answer to that should guide your"

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yeah."

Daniel: "um, your actions and every year or so I come back to that, to that phrase or to that, to that statement. And I, I discover another dimension to it because I, every year, like, oh, now I got it and somehow it keeps, keeps unpacking because I thought I would, I was doing that, but I I've done a lot of introspection over the last few weeks. And I realizing, yeah, I still programmed too much, which is"

dave: "Hahaha"

Daniel: "Frustrating because there's so much to do because telemetry deck as is Just not as beautiful and powerful and awesome as the telemetry dick that could be that is like in my mind But I think as a society we all have to live with that like with that dichotomy"

dave: "Yes. We do. And as developers, we do as well, right? Because the trouble is, Daniel, you'll, you'll know this all too well, but given an unlimited amount of time, you could make it be absolutely as beautiful and as succinct to products and everything else that you've got in your mind's eye, right? And so that becomes part of the"

Daniel: "Yeah. Mm-hmm."

dave: "the chase part of the rabbit hole, you've got that vision and you know that given, like I say, unlimited time, which is not realistic for anybody, that you could get there. And so of course it's going to keep nagging at you and pulling at you in that sense, right, because it is actually possible and it's possible to get quite close there by spending a lot more time on there. But the inverse of that is... None of that really matters if you've not done the other things that you need to do to get it in front of people and to get people using the product."

Daniel: "Right. And so, yeah, I'm just, so I think the effect that this has is on the software development side, I'm trying to get more focused. So I want to work on the things that are tiny, but super important. And that will just yield the most, like they will move the needle the most, you know. And at the same time, I want to like, like the software development is kind of a reward."

dave: "Yeah. Yep."

Daniel: "for the hard work of doing the marketing and stuff. And I need to learn a lot how to do marketing, how to not feel sleazy doing that and how to just like be ethical while still being effective. But yeah, I'm embarking on that journey. And let's see where it leads. I haven't done a lot since our last episode, just because as we record this, it's January 2."

dave: "Yep. He he. Yep. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "Um, so like there was this family and vacation and whatever, and I've been, I've been crashing, I've been crushing rockets. Um, the only thing I have been like hacking up away at a little bit is, um, multi organization. And I think I told you about this last episode already. Um, let me have a look in the show notes. Yeah. Roles for roles development for telemedia. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I have nothing new to report. Um,"

dave: "Mm-hmm, a little bit. But that's as it should be, you've been having Christmas time and doing all those things. And yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, I just noticed though, like just before we started recording, I have a link to a listener comment in our show notes that I haven't addressed yet. And I want to do that now. So this is this I posted a link, I posted an image of my screen of my of my whole desk, in fact, and the image shows my desk and my"

dave: "Okay, go for it."

Daniel: "screen on top of it in the keyboard and whatever. And then also there's a window directly behind my desk and the, the house on the other side of the street has a window and that reflects the sun directly into my eye, which happens during certain months for about three minutes a day. But of course, like the person answering this didn't know that. So Holger Krupp says."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "I'm listening to the current waiting for review and I just wanted to comment that this setup might not be the best. It's not even allowed to place desks oriented to a window like this in the company I'm working for. Windows should be on the side of the desk, not in front or behind. I guess that rule is there for a reason, but of course not all home office setups allowed. Home slash office setups, I want to say. And yes, Holger is correct. You should absolutely be sure to have a..."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "glare free environment. And if you have a window behind your screen, most of the time you will have glare in your eyes and that's probably headache inducing. And it's also just generally not very good for your eyes. I have still decided to put my desk into this niche of the room. Because on the, like, if like, except for three minutes on in winter months in the morning."

dave: "Yes. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "This doesn't happen because the sun is just this is like a north northward facing window So the Sun usually doesn't get in get in my eyes And the other thing is I have a very bright screen. So usually My eye is not my eyes are not like focused on darker things and then like still catching very bright rays from the outside and But yeah, if you have a good setup"

dave: "Yep."

Daniel: "Like you usually should have your screen like perpendicular to a window. That's usually the best way to place it. I have like, like I don't have that luxury so I place it differently and I live for that compromise but Holger is absolutely right. You shouldn't do that willy nilly."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Fair play. And yeah, it's probably good to call that out. I'm just thinking about this now. I have literally got the window perpendicular to this desk. And kind of just through happenstance and circumstance rather than thinking about it too hard. So, uh..."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "You know, I've kind of ended up with what you were saying was the ideal there. Um, and it is useful. It is good to have, have the light coming in, but not have it directly, you know, interfering at all."

Daniel: "Yeah, because if the light is from behind, then it will just reflect in your screen and that's super annoying. And yeah, if the light is coming from over the screen into your eyes, that's also not very good. And I think there are various laws and or guidelines, at least in Germany, where I just assume Holger is coming from, let me double check. Yeah."

dave: "Mm hmm. Not potentially."

Daniel: "that like, so that like, if you are a workplace, you have to have certain like have to adhere to certain guidelines on how to place screen workplaces. But yeah, this is I'm an employer. So it's not as it's not as if I'm going to sue myself."

dave: "Hehehe No, no, that's fair, that's fair. And again, there's probably some level of exception in practicality and looking at your picture with the desk in the bay window as it were, with three bits of window around it, if it was continuously an issue, you could put something up in that window to stop it, right? You could put... yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, and I would like, like the, the picture that I took, that's absolutely annoying. Um, if it were for more than, for more than just a few minutes a day. And even that, um, I haven't sat at, sat at this desk for a while. Now it might already be gone or it might just go on for a few weeks, um, more and then, and then be done. It's just like the angle of the sun is different."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well. I would suggest in that case then, at the moment that it happens, that is a signal to go take a break. And go get a drink."

Daniel: "Yeah. So it usually happens at 10.20 a.m. And 10 is where our sync meeting starts with me and Lisa and sometimes Marina, our technical writer. And so they will just watch me just like get..."

dave: "Okay."

Daniel: "more and more glare in my eye and just like move to the side of my desk because I'm just like moving my chair to the side just to be out of the glare because they won't see anything except my face or they won't see my face as a white blob anyway. And so it's a great source of fun for them."

dave: "Ha ha ha! I'm just picturing you, you know, the only thing visible for the contrast is your, your blue beard. And then, you know, you put your hand down and grab the sunglasses."

Daniel: "Hehehehe Yeah, that's pretty much what it looks like."

dave: "Fair, fair. Oh, well, that's nice to get listener feedback, even if it's to tell us about the right home office setup and that sort of thing. I think that's great. So yeah, thank you, Hogger. Hogger?"

Daniel: "And yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. If you wanna send us feedback, you can do so as well. You can send us email at contact at waitingforreview.com or just mention any of our accounts on Mastodon already. Oh, Dave, I just found a screenshot that I took during one of those meetings."

dave: "Yeah. Ha ha ha."

Daniel: "Hang on, I'm gonna post this directly against the, I'm gonna post it on Mastodon and then link it here so people who listen can also see it. Because yeah, it looks a bit bright, doesn't it?"

dave: "Yeah. Hehehe That does."

Daniel: "All right, it's posted."

dave: "Okay, well, we'll link that up in the show notes and I'm just going to go to mine and see. No, it's easy. Don't worry."

Daniel: "I lost it! I lost it! How do I... how do I find it again? There we go."

dave: "You know, where we are professionally edited show, this is where I would clip things about or put some sort of intermission thing up."

Daniel: "We can have like a little intermission music. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. I'm sorry."

dave: "Yeah, that's not gonna happen though. I'm afraid sorry. And yeah, oh my god. Yes, you are You look like the most anemic of potatoes with glasses on"

Daniel: "Thanks for watching! Sound bright like a diamond."

dave: "And like, it really is. I can't see your mouth, just see the bit of your nose and then your beard and then your glasses. That is even better than I was imagining before."

Daniel: "Yeah. And of course you see that I'm slightly off center, so usually I would go on towards the other direction of the camera image and just be in the shade."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Oh dear me. Okay, well anyway anybody listening can check the show notes on this and go and have a look. Yeah, I'm gonna have to turn you into a sticker I think. I'm sorry Daniel."

Daniel: "Yeah. Oh, please, please turn me into a sticker. I have another topic actually. Usually I write those down, but right now that's just my head. So we celebrated Christmas with my nieces and they got from me an old iPad. I wanna say, no, I really have no clue what that is. It's about three or four years old. It still has a home button."

dave: "Go for it. Mm-hmm. Okay."

Daniel: "but it's still very cool that they have an iPad now. And so their mom, I called their mom, of course, and was like, hey, can we gift an iPad to the kids? And she was like, yeah, of course, that would be very cool, but can you do two things? Can you A, just already prepare it so that they can immediately use it, and B, add some kind of child protection stuff on top of it. So I was like, okay, let's try this out."

dave: "Okay."

Daniel: "It turns out this is a pretty difficult process because I'm not their parent. And also, I'm already in an iCloud family with Alex, so I can't be in a different iCloud family, which is kind of annoying. Because otherwise, I would just have had..."

dave: "Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah."

Daniel: "I would have added myself to their iCloud family as a parent, and then I could install everything. But instead, I added their mom. And then every time I wanted to install something, she would get a notification. Had to approve that, had to enter her password every time, her iCloud password. And then only then I could install an application. So yeah, that was fun."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yes. But that at least educated her on what she'll need to do as a parent."

Daniel: "But yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I created an Apple account for them with an iCloud address. And that is also a FaceTime address. So I can now FaceTime with them and iMessage with them. That's really cool. But yeah, I wondered, like there's an, and for, and then also set up screen time, so from, I don't know, like 8 a.m. to like 9 p.m. or something like that, they can actually use the iPad."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep."

Daniel: "outside of those times, they can still use FaceTime and iMessage, but, and the Weather app, because I'm a very good uncle, like who gives so many possibilities to his nieces. But yeah, other than that, all the apps are in screen time mode. And for screen time, there's a special four digit code."

dave: "Yep. Mm-hmm. Hehehe Yes."

Daniel: "that you can set. And if you enter this code on the iPad, then it kind of breaks out of screen time. So you don't have to ask the parent basically. So if I work on anything, like when I worked on that iPad after 9 p.m., I would just enter the code. I actually forgot, but I had it written down somewhere. So this is a code that the kids are not supposed to know. And then I can kind of break out of screen time without having to ask for"

dave: "Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes."

Daniel: "for permission every time, which was very helpful in setting up everything. But that's not a thing you can do for app setup, that kind of thing. So, yeah, in the end we decided, yeah, like after installing two or three apps, we decided, okay, let's just wait, like gift it to the kids then, and then decide with them together, with everyone on the same couch, what apps to install."

dave: "Yes. Yeah. They'll want to do that anyway. They would want to do that anyway."

Daniel: "Um, one, sorry. You think that, but it turns out so many apps these days have pretty complicated set up processes. Like for example, learning apps, um, there's an account set up and then, or, or you need to log in with some account and then you need to, but there's like, um, especially like German school apps. There are tens of passwords that you need to enter in the correct order and whatever. And it was like,"

dave: "Uhhh Yep."

Daniel: "This was super boring. But yeah, one thing that also was frustrating was, so if the kids want to buy an application, so an application that is not free, it looks the same for the parent. The parent gets a notification. And then it says, instead of saying, OK, your kid wants to download and install this app, it says, like, your kid wants to. buy and install this app or something like that. And so you enter your iCloud password and it will actually buy it. And the thing is though, I did enable iCloud family sharing, which allows you to share apps and like inner purchases, that kind of stuff, between accounts in the same family. And yet I wanted to gift them an app. Like I wanted to give them this, they love this game, Townscaper, which if you don't know it, it's like a very meditative,"

dave: "Yes. Yes."

Daniel: "like little app where you build a cute and tiny little town just by clicking on squares. And then the squares become like buildings and just click more to add levels basically. They love that game. And they've like usually played it on my laptop or one of my devices. And so I was like, okay, if I'm gifting them this iPad, it needs to have townscaper. So what I did was I gifted. the app, it's like three bucks or so, I gifted them, I gifted that app to their mom. And so now she has that app. And I 100% expected to be able to install the app on the kid's iPad then. And that didn't work. In the end, in the end, she had to buy the same app again for it to show up on the kid's iPad."

dave: "Oh no. Ah yes I know this, I do know this. It's similar for things installed with a redemption code that the developers made as well. So if you give somebody a code to unlock an app, I don't think that shows up in family sharing for everybody else, for example."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm. Oh, so the same, so you think it might have been because it was a gift basically? Huh."

dave: "I think so. Yeah. It's gifted to you, not to the family. It's, it's, it's Apple being Apple at that point."

Daniel: "Oh my god, that's just ridiculous. Yeah, the whole installation process could be so much better because both parties, the kids and the parent, even with touch ID and or face ID set up, need to constantly enter their iCloud passwords, which"

dave: "Yeah. Yeah, I think you can set something on there where it'll remember for a little while, but I'm really not sure. Yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, but only for a little while, right? And I'm like, who needs this? Like there are, there's Touch ID. There's like, there is also the iCloud, the iCloud password is in the password manager that is built into iOS. And then also there's like a reasonably secure pin code on the iPad. And it could ask for Touch ID, it could ask for the pin code."

dave: "Yep."

Daniel: "But no, it shows up a box that says, OK, enter the iCloud password here. And that doesn't even enable the password manager."

dave: "I'm- I'm like 90% certain that there's some sort of setting for that because if my kids request something I can sign that off basically with Face ID without having to enter my password again."

Daniel: "Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because in the beginning, yeah, it is kind of weird. Like I went hunting a little bit, but maybe I missed it or something. Because in the beginning, we didn't have Touch ID set up because of course the kids hadn't seen the iPad yet. And if you don't have Touch ID set up, it will always prompt you for your password, but it will enable the password manager on it. So it's kind of easy, you know, like just like tap the password manager thingy, then enter the pin and then select the passwords."

dave: "Yeah. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "And now that it does have Touch ID, it will still always ask for the password, but it's somehow incompatible with the password manager thing."

dave: "That's weird. That sounds like something's not quite right."

Daniel: "It is weird. And that's on the kids iPad, but on the parents iPhone in that case, it's kind of the same, like it always wants a password. So I think, I think Apple could do better here. It is really cool that all these... Mm-hmm."

dave: "Yeah, I'd go, I go digging, go digging on the parent side in the iCloud, in the App Store settings or the iCloud settings because that has not been my experience on our side. Yeah."

Daniel: "Huh, all right, that's good. So you've used this system as well, right?"

dave: "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've used it for, for years now actually. Um, probably going back seven, eight years. Um, yeah, but, uh, if one of the kids requests something and it kicks up to, to parental sign off as it were, then I can, I can validate that just with my normal, like I say, face ID, um, verification on, on my iPhone or my iPad. Yeah."

Daniel: "Oh, that's good to know. We need to poke around in the mother's phone a bit more when I see her again."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, there'll be a setting in there somewhere. And, uh, yeah, but it is clunky. It is a bit clunky. Uh, but for us, it is definitely working reasonably well."

Daniel: "I mean, it is also very like, there's various things that are really well thought out. Like, for example, the what did you just call it when the parent has to sign off sign off something that needs biometric sign off? Like, her phone does have a touch ID button still. But it like it that is one thing the phone will not allow you to do with just the PIN code, because the kids might know the PIN code."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes."

Daniel: "And that is just so well thought out. I'm like, yeah, this is really cool. Also the screen time things. Like for example, the screen time will always give you one more minute. Like it will throw up a huge screen, like this blocking the whole screen as it says, okay, your screen time for this application is over. But without parental sign-off, you can still request one more minute and the iPad will just give it to you. So you can like save your game or save your file."

dave: "Hehehehe Yep."

Daniel: "close it down properly. And that's really smart. Or you can ask for 15 more minutes from the parent."

dave: "We had it, well, so before this year, my kids were using Macs. They've since had Windows PCs last year for gaming on. But they were using older Macs before that and playing things like Minecraft on there. And when we had screen time turned on for them, they found a few holes. inside of it. So if your Minecraft game was connected before the curfew, then it would keep running and it wouldn't disconnect. Minecraft was able to sit outside of it and they could keep a game going for way past their bedtime. So that was interesting. Yeah, yeah, that was on a Mac and I think to be honest if they pushed it a little bit on the Mac there would have been..."

Daniel: "Hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, smart. That's on a Mac though, right?"

dave: "all manner of other edge cases to find as well, just because the environment is that more flexible, right? But yeah, and what we also found of course, is as they got older, it was less necessary in some ways as well, because yeah, my kids are now, well, my eldest will be 18 in six months time, so."

Daniel: "Yeah. And then you have a ceremony where you remove all the restrictions and you say, okay, kid, you can now use this iPad even after 9pm. Congratulations."

dave: "Yeah. Well, no, now we've moved on to a situation of, yeah, if people are staying up way too late, then I can of course lock people out of the Wi-Fi at the router level. So we've changed where the admin is. It's no longer in Apple's tools, but I can do the equivalent of hanging up the phone line on them."

Daniel: "Hehehehehehe Yeah, of course. Is there a possibility, can you convert a kid's iCloud account to just an adult iCloud account?"

dave: "Yeah, you can. You can. There's a process. Yeah. But we'll see. We'll see. That'll be something we'll do later on in the year. But Daniel, one thing that I'm remembering sort of thinking about family sharing and all that side of things is that this was something I did ages back before Apple TV had a proper concept of multiple users."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "One thing I did is I created an extra account. I created an iCloud account for the Apple TV and then added it to our family. So the fifth member of our family is the Apple TV user. And that actually worked reasonably well. I mean, you don't really need to hack around like that these days, but yeah, there was no way I wanted to be signed in on my main user."

Daniel: "Okay. Hahaha"

dave: "And then whatever the kids are playing through the TV or messing around with sort of starts to impact the view of my user. Yeah, so."

Daniel: "Oh, yeah, I get that. I mean, our Apple TV is kind of just my account, but then there's no kids, and the cats usually just watch their one YouTube channel. So that's fine."

dave: "Yeah. Yep, but things are a little bad now. You can switch between users and stuff, but not that we do, we have the Apple TV user and we just leave it there, but."

Daniel: "What's the Apple TV user's name?"

dave: "Uh, it's just our initials. So this is like, um, DTBL or something and a load of other stuff at iCloud.com. But, uh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like this is, these are the sort of things though, that until you need to use them for anything, they're kind of opaque, right? The sort of family sharing and that side of things. And, uh,"

Daniel: "Okay. Mm."

dave: "I think the one thing that I would advise indie developers to do is to turn on the ability to share purchases or subscriptions with the family. Because I think so, yes. Yeah. And the reason I say it's a good thing and a good idea is that I definitely know that as a parent, if I'm aware I can do that, that makes me more likely to spend that money."

Daniel: "Oh, is that something you can turn off and on? Oh wait, it is. That's that setting, of course."

dave: "right? Whereas the inverse of that is that I'll be more likely to look for an app that does offer it instead. So you know it definitely becomes something that I keep an eye out for because it's one thing to say okay I'm gonna get this thing and I'll subscribe for I don't know 10 dollars a month say for this service. If everybody in the family can use it then that's like yeah okay that makes sense. If it's going to be that times each person"

Daniel: "Hmm."

dave: "it does not make sense for a lot of things. And so the sale gets lost regardless of like you will never make three, four X that amount of subs from me. You know."

Daniel: "Hmm. Imagine the app is like, oh yeah, I need to buy this for your kid's iPad as well. And you're just like, well, no."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I definitely advise that and having that turned on. If your app is the sort of thing that multiple people in one household would like to use, you're more likely to get the sale if you turn it on. I think obviously, you know, your mileage will vary so test these things. But yeah, I definitely look out for those opportunities where the subscription or the in-app purchase can be shared."

Daniel: "Yeah. Yeah, if anyone knows if there's any possibility if I could be in two iCloud families at once though, hit me up because that will make things so much easier."

dave: "It really does feel like you should be able to. I'm sort of thinking about people with, you know, different lifestyle situations and all the rest of it. It makes sense that you might have the family you're living with. And then if you've got shared responsibility of children, but you're not living together, you know, that sort of thing, like feels like there should be, should be some sort of ability for it."

Daniel: "Of course they should. Yeah. And like, just, just like imagine divorced parents. Imagine, um, I don't know, other like living situations where like multiple adults are raising a kid or whatever. Um."

dave: "Yeah. Yeah, or even at the other end, you know, like, a grandparent and multiple younger people in the family might want the responsibility for looking after them."

Daniel: "Yeah. And I mean, I get that you don't want to share, like if you're Apple, you don't want to, you wouldn't want one family to pay and then have like hundreds of family members that all like share one Apple TV plus account or whatever. But I mean, they are very smart people. I'm sure, I'm sure they can figure it out."

dave: "Yep. I'm sorry."

Daniel: "And yeah, by the way, if this comes across as I'm super nagging or I'm being very annoyed about the family sharing stuff, I'm not. I'm appreciating that it's there and I just wanted to share my experience is what I wanted to say. I'm very glad that it exists."

dave: "Yeah. It's, uh, and it's funny, right? I mean, I'm, I'm out of date by probably nearly a decade now, so I'm hoping this stuff has come on. But prior to, to my kids having iOS devices of their own, there was a brief period of about probably 18 months where they had Android tablets, uh, because for the price of an iPad, they were able to get a tablet each and the experience there was"

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "terrible in comparison. I'm sure Android has moved on in that time. I would very much hope so. But yeah, the experience of one versus the other at that point was dramatic, you know, in terms of like Apple stuff just worked comparatively."

Daniel: "Yeah. can imagine. Now the only problem is, I don't know what like they're asking me like what app should I use for that and like I don't know like I'm not an iPad user. That's why I gave it away, you know, because, yeah, I don't know. So the older one of them is getting super into architecture. And so she bought herself various architecture for kids, whatever, books. And she's like, what app can I use for architecture? And we've been both searching the internet. And the first thing that came up was basically Sketch. And they're like, yeah, I've heard very good things about that. Or SketchUp, actually. SketchUp."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yep."

Daniel: "I've heard very good things. It's a free app, right? So we're downloading it. And I was like, Oh yeah, but please register here and then enter your payment details because SketchUp for iPad actually costs 109 bucks per year. And I'm like, ah,"

dave: "Ha ha. Oh no. Okay. Yep."

Daniel: "So now, so that's first, because like SketchUp on the desktop is just completely free. That's like one of their main selling points. And then I'm like, ah, so I guess not, because like, I mean, if she really like follows that up and like uses that every day, of course, like whatever, I'm gonna pay that or her mom's gonna pay that or whatever. But for now, we've just started with just a random here, build a like..."

dave: "Yes. And then."

Daniel: "interior architecture, like build your house and then like add furniture kind of app. And she's kind of happy with it, but still. So if you have any recommendations."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Shippy. I've got a couple actually, you could potentially try something like Tinkercad, which is not specifically architecture orientated, but would let her get a bit of sort of 3D design. Yeah, I do believe the iPad version is essentially a thin wrapper over the web experience, but it should still work. So yeah, that could be something that you explore."

Daniel: "That's pretty cool. Mm-hmm. I'm leaving, I'm leaving that tab open. That's pretty cool. It has a specific children's privacy statement. That's pretty nice."

dave: "Yeah. Yep. So that gets used a lot for small models and things for 3D rendering. But in terms of being able to carve out the shapes of places and that sort of thing, it might be an adjacent experience. And I think that's probably as good as you're going to get in terms of iPad software, sort of based on what I've seen my kids do and everything else, is that you'll get."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "software that's adjacent but isn't necessarily what you would use professionally. The other thing to look at is does the iPad have a pencil?"

Daniel: "It doesn't. It doesn't like I have an I haven't pencil one lying around actually, but the iPad doesn't support pencil. It's not a one of them one that supports pencils."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Ah, OK. In that case, I was going to say maybe like drawing apps and that sort of thing as well, because again, it's adjacent skills and we'd all tie into that."

Daniel: "Yeah. I mean, like if it doesn't, if there's nothing there, there's nothing there, you know. It's just, it reminds me of our discussion we had a few months ago about the Vision Pro and that it will be like software wise, the situation will be very similar to iPad software where it's a very closed on system and apps that you're used to having on the desktop are just not there. And I wonder if Apple should"

dave: "Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah."

Daniel: "reconsider their approach to how they like their balance between security and openness on the iPad because like on the iPhone that had like everyone has a phone everyone had like basically every other person on the planet has an iPhone so you're gonna get a lot of apps but on the iPad it feels like even die-hard iPad fans are beginning to or like, you know, this productivity, I'm always on the iPad, I always do everything on the iPad. Look at people like Federico Vitici, for example, even though they are slowly getting disillusioned by the fact that they just can't do the things that they need to do or they can do that, but they have to jump through so many hoops and they wanna record podcasts, but you can't record."

dave: "Yep. Yeah."

Daniel: "multiple like with multiple apps at once or they like it doesn't really have sound routing or i don't know like just so many things"

dave: "Yes. Yes. The sound routing annoys me because there's no good reason for the iPad to not support what the Mac can support in that regard. Like, there might be a technical reason I'm not aware of with the stack that's there, but it... Again, it just feels like something they could invest some time in, make happen on the iPad. And then again, you've then got a whole other area of capability then for pro users. Um, it is frustrating. I, I've tried, you know, to use my iPad as more of a daily driver in the past and come up against those sort of bits myself. I think."

Daniel: "Yeah."

dave: "One of the things with the Vision Pro that could be quite interesting is that eventually I can see this sort of somewhere in between the Vision Pro, the iPad Pro, and then the Mac itself actually. I can see there being the capability of apps that are sort of trying to serve all three in one way or another having a better time of it. And I guess I'm thinking about like Now with Catalyst and SwiftUI, we've got options of having a single codebase, as it were, for all three. I know there's nuance to that, and I know that there's a lot of things that Catalyst doesn't do very well and all of that side of it, but I can see this point of convergence that kind of says, okay, if I build this app to work in this way, I can then serve..."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "three different types of software. The hardware rather."

Daniel: "Yeah. And I think that's a lot of the value proposition with SwiftUI as well. And I totally get that. Like for example, the very much abandoned telemetry deck mobile app is written in SwiftUI and it took basically three minutes to get it running on the, on the vision, vision OS simulator. So, and, and that's really cool. And then,"

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep."

Daniel: "at an hour or two of work and you have it looking pretty sleek. So that's pretty cool. Anything like that, like a app to view your charts and telemetry deck or a Macedon client or that kind of stuff, like a phone app that is kind of blown up. Yeah, that's pretty easy to do, but on the desktop people sometimes do complicated things. that rely on the interconnectedness between applications. And I'm beginning to smart more see that the model of the iPad just doesn't do this. And I think Apple has a certain vision of the future in mind. And that is just very like sandboxed app based. And it's like, okay, we're gonna give you like these 15 ways of bridging stuff. And if you're like, if"

dave: "Yes. It is."

Daniel: "your use case doesn't work with that, then you're just out of luck. And I think they should, or they probably need to reconsider that at some point because the idea of just and completely new paradigm as the iPad is coming along and just like succeeding the Mac and Windows and whatever desktops is pretty cool, but it's, it won't happen this way."

dave: "Yep. Yeah, I think there's probably some truth to that."

Daniel: "And it won't happen with the Vision Pro either, if it's the same model. I think it will be exacerbated because there's more iPad apps than Vision Pro apps. And of course you can run iPad apps on the Vision Pro, but I mean, what's the fun in that?"

dave: "No. Yes, you can. Yep. I think, I don't know if I think if I saw zoom stackers, take a step back, zoom out on all of this, like the iPad's been in this world since forever, right. And this sort of liminal space between it can do more than the iPhone can simply because it's got more real estate to work with sort of UI wise. Uh, and yet it's, it's bolted down."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "to not be Mac-like in terms of that. And yet, you know, I've got an iPad, iPad Pro with the M2 chip in, it's desktop class, well, laptop class hardware, right? There's no physical reason that device cannot behave more like a Mac, to be honest with you. It's got the RAM, it's got the chip, it's got everything else. But it's not Apple's vision."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm. Mm."

dave: "And you know, Apple's vision is multiple pieces of hardware that all interoperate very well and therefore you spend more overall than you would have done if you could just run everything on one thing. Um, that seems to be their MO. I mean, even with the vision pro, right? You're going to want to use airports with that to have the better audio experience, for example. Um, so I guess as developers, the bit to look at, and I just use this."

Daniel: "Yeah."

dave: "to some degree is to look at, well, okay, with these multiple ways of accessing data or accessing an experience, like what makes sense? You know, and to think of that in that sense, because all this conversation is leading me to a point where I'm thinking about what I'm up to with my video mixing app. And the fact that I am now looking at making, you know, this pro version of it that then runs better."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "overall on the iPad. And then I will bring it to the Mac as well. I probably won't bother with the Vision Pro for quite some time, simply because I don't think that anybody is going to be trying to use the Vision Pro to control the sort of experience that this app does."

Daniel: "Right. Mm-hmm."

dave: "There's a future where people might want to experience different things that the app can control. And that's a different scenario. That's a, all the people in the room have got vision pros and you're then performing for them in that layer. I'd say that's probably quite a few years away yet. Um,"

Daniel: "Hehehehehehe Yeah, I think so too, but it's a nice idea."

dave: "Yeah, yeah, it's a nice vision."

Daniel: "Speaking of, I had this, this reminds me very much of a thought I had the other day where I was talking with a friend about how the cliche is that Gen Z don't know how to use computers. Whereas like, like our parents don't know how to use computers. And then it turns out that our, the next generation also doesn't know how to use computers. But so we are like the generation that's kind of stuck in between that."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "that's supposed to know all of this. And they were like saying this tongue in cheek. And then I was thinking, well, I mean, on the one hand, this is very lamentable because computers rule everything around us. And you know, if you have power over computers, you have power over your destiny. But on the other hand, you know, whenever I have, I have like anything electrical in the apartment,"

dave: "Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and close the video."

Daniel: "that is more than just, I don't know, it's like sticking things together basically. I call my dad because he, like, he's not, like, he's not an electrician professionally, but he is proficient enough to do, to like strip wires and whatever without electrocuting himself. And I assume, like, working with computers, all capital letters, is a skill that is just something that you call your dad about, you know, or your uncle in my case."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yes."

Daniel: "Um, and, and that fits in with the vision that Apple seems to have for vision OS and iPad OS, which is dealing with the problems and like dealing with the files and with how to present the stuff to you, that is the programmer's job. Like they, they studied this thing or they learned how to write the software and they need to."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "take care of like how the data is managed and how the files are exchanged and how the streams of audio are connecting and whatever, you know what I mean? Like less control for the user because they don't want it. So yeah, maybe they are even right."

dave: "I would say for a vast majority of people, they are right in that sense. And that will run at right angles to people like ourselves and most of the listeners of the show in terms of being technical people, because it's not fully right for us. I mean I don't want a world where my Mac is locked down so far that I can't install what I want on it, for example. Yeah. A majority of everyday people using these, these pieces of hardware, they don't care. You know, really as long. Yeah."

Daniel: "They don't care, but the downside is that if you can't find a developer to make that app that you need for you, because maybe it's just not commercially viable, or maybe Apple doesn't allow it for some reason, then you're just stuck. You can't do it the hard way where you cobble something together on your own, and you can't get anyone to make it nice for you. You're just stuck."

dave: "Mm-hmm. No."

Daniel: "And especially on platforms with not as many programmers, like the Vision Pro, maybe, I hope not, but it might be the case, or actually the iPad right now. It's kind of like, yeah, it's a chicken and egg thing. Like if everyone was using iPads, then the app situation would be way better. But, and if the app situation was way better, then everyone would be using iPads."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yeah, and honestly Daniel, I feel like that has been the iPad story sort of forever. So, but I would say as developers, I think iOS developers, iPadOS developers, yeah, I think there is a window there. There is opportunity there. I hope so, because that's where I'm going this year. So, you know, we'll see."

Daniel: "Yeah. and PADOS. Of course."

dave: "But anybody really does that thing you were saying a minute ago about as developers, we need to handle that for the user, right? We handle the gritty bits underneath. I think there's a lot of truth to that. And actually, if I think about the feedback I've had in the last couple of weeks with this Prospective Pro app and people sort of asking for features and things like that as well. Right?"

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "That is part of the power that is part of it is that we get to be the ones doing that bit for people and then enabling them and enabling what they can do. So you know, not all is lost. Yeah, well 15, 15 for the moment. You are indeed. You are feisty Dan."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. and we pay 30% to Apple for the privilege. Ooh, I'm feisty today. Feisty Dan. Yeah, maybe we should call it a day before I get even more feisty. But that has been really, really fun. Dave, where can people find you online?"

dave: "I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Okay, yeah, so you can find me on the Fediverse on the Mastodons at dave at soci"

Daniel: "Fantastic. And where can people send comments and questions and stuff? We already said this, but I'm going to repeat it at contact at wait Send us emails, send us message and comments. We're not officially on any other platform, I think. You can also send me a message on LinkedIn if you like. Other than that, please rate us on iTunes."

dave: "That's right. Yep. No. Hahaha"

Daniel: "Like that would be really, really nice. Um, thank you so much for listening. Oh yeah. You can find me at daniel at soci And with that, I bid you adieu."

dave: "Adieu. Ah, so goodbye then, Daniel."

Daniel: "Yeah. Byeeeeeeee."