The Alphabet Soup of Doodle Generations

Welcome to the Doodle Kisses Podcast and extension of DK.com

I’m your host Adina Pearson. The goal of this podcast is to provide education, entertainment and connect with our DoodleKisses members on the topic of labradoodles, goldendoodles and dogs in general.  

We are going to be taking a bit of a break this summer, but when I asked listeners for feedback on topics they want to hear about in the fall, one person suggested we cover the alphabet soup of doodle generations.  Since this is a fairly simple topic that doesn’t require a full length show, I thought I’d cover it today as supplement of sorts--no intro music, no commercials.

Then again I am capable of going on and on about doodle topics, so who knows!

When I first got introduced to the world of the labradoodle, I found the generation distinction very interesting.  Back then most doodles were of the F1 generation and the F1b generation.  Today you might see F2, F1bb and various other combos as well as the designation of “multigenerational.”

But what the heck does this alphabet soup mean?  And does it matter?

Let’s get into it!

First the F stands for filial and the number or letters refers to the generation.  And in technical biology terms Filial generations are the terminology used to describe subsequent sets of offspring from a controlled or observed reproduction.  These terms are classic biology terms.  They were not created by or for doodle breeding, but they help describe the generations in this mixed breed.
The first generation between the poodle and another breed is called the F1 generation.  Or more simply, F1.  

Any purebred crossed with a different purebreed creates puppies that can be called F1 something-or-other.

Lab and Poodle = F1 labradoodle
Golden and Poodle = F1 goldendoodle

The initial draw of the labradoodle was the idea that you can mix the lab and poodle and voila you’d have a magical combo that would give you the non-shedding coat and intelligence of the poodle and the jovial, friendly, happy to see and please you lab personality.  Of course, in real life this doesn’t play out in this idealized 50/50 way.  Because if you’re picking genes at random (which is how real life works when two creatures reproduce offspring), you might also end up with a dog that gets the shedding genes from the lab.  A doodle litter is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re gonna get ;-) 

Think of it this way, if Surfer Joe and Curly Sue have 6 children.  Some of their children could have blue eyes like Joe (if Sue carries blue eyed genes).  Some will have brown eyes like Sue.  Some will have Sue’s curly hair and others will have Joe’s stick straight blond hair.  Some will be short like their dad, Joe, others will take after Sue and be very tall.  Some will have Joe’s laid back attitude and others will be type A like Sue.  Some might even take after Sue’s Dad and be math wizzes.  Some will tan easily like Joe and some will have Mom’s very pale skin. All depending on how the genetic lottery goes for each child at conception.  What doesn’t happen is this.  They do not turn out like identical twins that are exactly halfway between the parents.  They will not all have medium brown, wavy hair--neither curly nor straight.  They will not all have heights between their two parents.  They will not all have medium personalities--neither type A nor overly laid back.  They will be individuals, each catching some of one parent’s characteristics and some of the other’s.  They will have things in common, but will be unique.  

If this is true with one mammal, believe me, it works this way in dogs too.  Mixing two very different breeds will yield a variety--not a 50/50 perfect mix with ONLY the qualities you want and none of the ones you don’t.  It’s NOT like mixing paint where you mix red and white and you get pink.  

That’s the F1.  And luckily labs and poodles are generally great dogs so if you’re getting an F1 doodle from two parents that are fabulous dogs, most of the puppies in the litter will be decent.  If one of the parent has a temperamental flaw or is shy or hyper...you can bet there will be puppies in that litter who inherit that characteristic.  The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

For some reason F1 labradoodles are not being bred much these days, not by well known breeders and almost never by breeders who do proper health testing on the parents. But many are breeding F1 goldendoodles.  It’s not clear to me why, but I think that F1 goldendoodles, as long as they have furnishings, tend to be more scruffy and have thicker fur, on the whole, compared to F1 labradoodles.  I can’t speak to other poodle mix F1s.

The next common generation after the F1 is the F1b.  If the F1 is essentially the first cross between two different breeds, the F1b is the result of taking an F1 and crossing it back to one of the parent breeds.  Most of the time this means taking an F1 doodle and breeding it with a poodle again.  This cross means you will statistically get 75% poodle, however, just like with the F1 that’s supposed to be 50/50, not every puppy in the litter will look like or act like a dog that is 75% poodle.  This mix is often touted as “better” for people with allergies to dogs.  And statistically, speaking, an F1b dog should have more poodle coat genetics and not shed.  But nature and genetics is complicated and sometimes even an F1b (of any doodle type) can still shed and not necessarily be curly like you’d expect of a dog with 75% poodle genetics.  

I often ask people, why not just get a well bred poodle instead of a dog that looks like a poodle?  And the most common answer is “I want that golden (or lab) personality” -- I get it.  Goldens and labs are nice dogs, but there’s NO guarantee that an F1b will retain enough of the lab or golden characteristics.  

There’s a different kind of F1b though.  Sometimes breeders will take an F1 doodle and cross it back to a retriever, but that is rare and doesn’t really make sense when it comes to the reason most people want a doodle: lower shedding.  At that point, I wonder why not just get a lab or golden?

Another generation that I’m seeing more and more of, despite the genetic gamble is the F2.  Trying to explain this is hard without a visual aid, so I’m going to link you to a video I made a while back in the show notes.  

Imagine you had two sets of marbles.  One set is blue, the other yellow.  Blue will represent the poodle’s genes and yellow will represent the retriever’s genes.

An F1 doodle gets half it’s genes from the poodle and half its genes from the retriever.  So imagine it’s DNA is a row of blue marbles and a row of yellow marbles.  To make an F2, you breed two F1 dogs together.  The F2 gets half its genes from the F1 dad and half its genes from the F1 Mom.  But because both parents have both lab and poodle genes, in the genetic lottery of an F2, it’s possible, that some puppies will end up picking mostly lab genes from each F1 parent.  And it’s possible some puppies will pick mostly poodle genes from each parent….and every single combination between.  So the F2 is the BIGGEST GAMBLE in terms of breeding consistency.  You have less idea what you’re going to get.  There can be some very retriever-like dogs and some very poodley dogs and all the varieties in between.  This mix makes no sense at all unless a breeder was really breeding for the future and creating a breed “type” over 50 years.  But for producing a litter, today, it’s a crapshoot.  

I have also seen breeders advertise F1bb -- can you guess what this is?  An F1b (75% poodle) bred to a poodle again.  So a very poodley dog.  Why?  Marketing.  

I’ve also seen F2b and F2bb -- these can come from an F2 bred back to a poodle once or twice.  

As far as higher numbers...F3, F4, etc…. A generation only advances one generation beyond the lowest generation.  And anything beyond F1b or F2 is a multigenerational doodle.

This is interesting and can be fun to try to play with the alphabet soup, but ultimately, it doesn’t matter.  If you know what an F1, F2 and F1b is you can figure out the rest.   And it only matters in terms of having an idea of what kind of genetic possibilities there are in a litter.  It doesn’t mean ANYTHING about your pup.  If your pup has a perfect doodley nonshedding coat--does it matter what generation it is?  If it sheds and has a smooth face with no furnishings, does it matter that it is a multigen?  

What most people care about is getting their idealized doodley dog -- and that is an impossible promise because doodle litters will be a mixed bag of possibilities.  An experienced breeder should be able to weed out a super curly dog from a dog that has no facial furnishings, but beyond that, it’s a guess.

Speaking of furnishings, in case anyone is unfamiliar with this term.  It refers to the scruff around the nose and muzzle that is what is expected with a doodle.  Very different than the smooth, short hair on the face of a lab or golden.  In any dog beyond the first generation, a breeder can predict with certainty if any pups will have furnishings or if they will have an incorrect coat (that looks like a retriever).  They can do this with genetic testing of the parents.  The genes for an incorrect coat are known.  In the past breeders would be surprised when many generations in they’d end up with puppies that had “throwback coats” that looked like a retriever despite having two parents that were multigen doodles.  But now breeders can test for this gene.  If both parents have the full furnishings genes, they will only produce offspring that are furnished.  If one parent carries the gene and the other doesn’t, they will still have furnished pups.  But if they both carry for incorrect coat, then some puppies will have smooth faces and look like retrievers.  If you don’t want that, be sure your breeder tests for this.

I hope this explanation helped a little and didn’t just create more confusion.  Remember that doodles are like a box of chocolates and you don’t know exactly what you’ll get in early generations.  Remember that genetics aren’t like mixing paint colors, but also keep in mind what the possibilities are in various mixes so you know what you can expect.  Beyond that, it’s just alphabet soup.