Tessa  0:18  
Welcome to monkey off my backlog the podcast where we exercise our pop culture demons by tackling our media to do lists one week at a time. I'm your host, Tessa Swehla and today I'm joined by longtime friends of the podcast Megan of the on the download podcast. Hi, and Elise of the pod rates Deep Space Nine, rewatch podcast. Hi, boo, romance, sorry. Today we are going to talk romance. Romance fiction is one of the best selling genres of all time, with sales exceeding over 1 billion each year. There are hundreds of sub genres and dozens of different mediums, from audio books to self publish novellas to graphic novels, however, it is one of the most maligned genres as well. So in this episode, we're going to talk about our love for the genre, why we think it's so popular, why you should add some romance to your lists, as well as some things we've been reading lately. So romance, what is it? What do you all think a book has to have in order to be considered part of the romance genre?

Unknown Speaker  1:34  
I was thinking that, and this is really basic, but the romance part has to the romance has to be like the main point. It's not like, for me, I think,

Unknown Speaker  1:48  
but I don't agree. I think it has to be a major plot point. You know, like, yeah, you know, like, I mean, when you read like, fantasy romance or something like that, like, there's obviously other things that are going on. Yeah, no, for sure. At the end of the day, like, I think that though, like relationships have to be, you know, kind of important because like, I used to joke with my friends that I don't want to read any books where no one kisses, and then they're like, well, like, but like, there's a ton of books where people kiss like, you know, like Game of Thrones. I'm like, oh, but Game of Thrones isn't a romance. Like that's not a priority. It needs to be a priority. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  2:26  
Or Game of Thrones is a very, very violent romance.

Unknown Speaker  2:32  
I you know what the Game of Thrones movies or books have not completed yet. So who's to say what the priority

Unknown Speaker  2:37  
is? that's entirely fair. I still have to read the last one, actually. But like, I'm not in a rush. I'm trying to think about whether it was the last fiction book I read that didn't have some sort of kissing in it. And I legitimately cannot remember there being one. Why bother? Yeah. Why?

Tessa  3:01  
Does a romance novel or any other work of romance have to have an HCA a happily ever after? As the trades people of the genre? Call it?

Unknown Speaker  3:14  
I think, no, I understand. I understand why. That would be like, why that would draw appeal. And I'm going to talk later about like, we're all going to talk later about our preferences. And like, if I'm sitting down and I want a happily ever after, and I don't get one like I am in a mood. But like I think it not to immediately talk about movies. But like Titanic is a romance. You know, that's not after?

Unknown Speaker  3:45  
I kind of feel the same way about the second season of fleabag. Like, I don't know if you guys have seen that. It's like enough. Yeah, it's a love story. And that doesn't have a happily ever after. I mean, it does in some ways, like a solo happily ever after, I guess like you'll not happy but you know what I mean? I don't want to spoil fleabag because it's wonderful and everyone should watch it. But that doesn't have like, a happy ending. And I just, I like the these two people had a time together. And then they go their separate ways that I like that too.

Tessa  4:22  
That's interesting, because I definitely remember the first time that I encountered someone just absolutely getting livid over the lack of an HCA in a romance was a friend of mine, who watched 500 days of summer with me which spoiler alert for those of you who haven't seen the film 500 Days of Summer, it does not have an HCA and 500 Days of Summer is a great film it I really enjoy it a lot. I know that some people like to make fun of it, and it definitely deserves to be made fun of in some ways, but part of the point of that film is that it is a romance. It is a about thinking that someone else is the one when they don't necessarily think that you're the one. And it doesn't have a happily ever after. Because it's sort of interrogating that concept. It's deconstructing it in a lot of ways. And I remember really appreciating that and really enjoying what the filmmaker was trying to do. But my friend did not she did not enjoy it at all. She was expecting an HCA, she wanted an HCA. And the fact that the film didn't give it to her made her extremely angry. And so I think I agree with you, Megan, that it doesn't necessarily have to have an HCA. But if you're a romance writer, you don't give the people an ETA at your own risk. Because those expectations are just so powerful. If you go in expecting an hga and don't get it, it can really ruin your experience of reading a romance novel.

Unknown Speaker  5:55  
Right? And I mean, I think like a genre of romance is like a fluff romance. Like if I pick up a book with like, an awkward cover and like, a couple standing back to back and it's called, like, oh, kissing in the rain, like, I'm probably going to expect that to have a happy ever after. But it's not that I think I'm owed that. Right.

Unknown Speaker  6:16  
I think I think the books I'm going to cover later are like, are like that, like, where it's the kind of actually I've just realized. It's interesting, though, because I, I do wonder, I feel like, and this is not a criticism of the person that you know, who like was disappointed. But I do feel like there's a correlation between not happily ever after. And like the whole gross concept to me of like the friendzone. And like, how, even in real relationships, sometimes people have like expectations that are different. And it just like Megan said, we're not owed fat. And nobody is owed that in real life, either. It just I feel like there's a connection there that I someone smarter than me can make that.

Unknown Speaker  7:14  
Another thing that's interesting, specifically about 500 Days of Summer, and I promised not to take this down at too long of a tangent. But I think I like I think there is like a that was from a male perspective. And like, I very much feel like I don't know, like, if they were marketing it towards, you know, like a broader demographic, we're going to talk about, you know, how people view romance as a genre. And like, I could see people leaving and being like, well, it's not like a True Romance like guys would like it, you know, and I'm like, Okay, yeah, I have a problem with that as well. But at the end of the day, I can see how people would say that.

Unknown Speaker  7:55  
Oh, I was just saying, I'm very happy. There are men in my life that like romance and romantic comedy.

Unknown Speaker  7:59  
Oh, I've, I've broken down almost every man in my life. I that's what I'll do. People will be like, Oh, I like fantasy books. And I'm like, Can I interest you in a slowburn?

Tessa  8:16  
Why do you think romance as a genre is so enduringly popular. Like I knew it was the best selling genre of the publishing industry. But I was truly shocked when I looked it up for this episode, and found out that 1 billion was that number annually, $1 billion, over $1 billion in sales. And of course, like Amazon has made it so much easier for romance writers to self publish, there are so many different mediums for romance now. It's really just exploded over the last few years, even though it has been one of the best selling genres since probably the 1980s. So why do you think it is so popular? Why does it account for so much of the publishing industry sales? I think it's the same thing as fantasy. It's escapism, you know, like, the shoes.

Unknown Speaker  9:11  
Yeah. And also, at least with a lot of the romance I read, there's not high stakes, so it's like putting on a comfort TV show and like, just enjoying the ride. Having fun while doing it, and then you know, usually I can you can read them pretty quickly. So it's like, Okay, I'm gonna do this tonight. Like You I can read a romance novel in like a day or two. You know,

Tessa  9:36  
I have to say that one of my favorite things to do is on a rainy day. If I can, like take the afternoon off or if it's on a weekend, I don't have to go anywhere. Just to like lie on my couch and read a romance novel. Just start to finish one sitting with like some candles and Some music I especially love putting on the only Lovers Left Alive soundtrack. It's really great for romance novel reading, highly recommend, and it's just raining outside, there's just enough light for me to read by without straining my eyes. It's just a really relaxing experience. That sounds like a wonderful mood.

Unknown Speaker  10:20  
If you have one with like a happily ever after it's very low stress. Like, yeah, it's a very universal desire, you know, like, wanting to like, you know, feel loved in some way. I think I yeah, I don't see why anyone wouldn't let her read robots, which is how I've convinced everyone around.

Tessa  10:41  
So what you just said Megan, about sort of wearing down all the men in your life to read romance kind of provides one of kind of provides a potential answer to the question, why is romance as a genre so maligned in public discourse? And I mean, I think that is a really good answer. The fact that well, romance is a girl genre, right? You know, it's a genre of the housewife, you know, we have this image of like an older woman, reading romance novels from bargain bins, you know, that the Harlequin bodice rippers of the 1980s, especially because she doesn't have a sex life. And that's kind of the stereotype that we have surrounding romance is that it's a very gender thing. Do you all agree with that? Or do you think it's because romances genre is so popular that people like to denigrate it? Because it's not literary enough? Or it's not exclusive enough? No, it's the patriarchy.

Unknown Speaker  11:49  
It's, yeah, it's, I think it's really a gender thing. Our society has a huge history of being critical towards anything that's girly, or feminine. Anything marketed towards women or girls is often considered less than I just, I do think it's changing a little bit, I do think, at least, and I'll get into this later, like how I got into, like romance novels, there are more men in that situation in the community that I'm part of where I started getting into it more, that are reading them too. But I feel like, at least in my experiences, the men that are going to be in the community that I'm in are probably more open minded anyway. So it's like, I don't need to stick Megan on them to like, get them to

Unknown Speaker  12:38  
read. And I mean, it is I do feel like I kind of have to like walk them walk them right up to the door, you know, I'm not throwing of abattis river or like something with heavy smart right off the get. But if they like fantasy books, I'll give them something that's fantasy. But then at the end, the couple gets together, and that's what's important. And, and then they're like, Oh, actually, it was like, kind of enjoyable. I'm like, yeah, cuz relationships are a part of life and are entertaining. Like, this isn't rocket science.

Tessa  13:14  
One of my favorite things to do, because of course, like when you're navigating the wealth of self published romance novels, especially, but even just the industry, traditionally published romance novels, is to look at reviews, you know, to see what's good, what people are saying about it. And so, you know, I have to admit, I'll scroll down, you know, to the Amazon reviews, and my favorite reviews are the one star reviews. I mean, I know that's bad for the author. So you know, I feel sorry for them. But it just makes me laugh when I see these one star reviews that are like, this book is just an excuse for smart. And it's like you're reading a romance novel, like don't read this novel, if you don't like the smut. Maybe that's what I'm here for.

Unknown Speaker  14:07  
The last book I read was like that the plot was so thin, but I still haven't heard it. It was great.

Tessa  14:16  
So I have two questions to ask both of you before we get to talking about the genre that Elise is going to talk to us about today. So the first question is, we have to have this settled before we start really getting into the details here. Do you prefer series or standalone romance novels?

Unknown Speaker  14:39  
Oh, I guess historically, I'm, I'm a serious person. But I don't like if they get together in the first book, then I don't want another book. From that point of view. I want to switch to someone else. Oh, their friend or it's the first couples wedding and now these people are you know, yada yada yada. So I like when there's some sort of connected universe. But I don't like starting a book, whether already

Unknown Speaker  15:07  
I feel the same. I do like the series if it's like, you know, the friends or the sisters or whatever. But yeah, I read so many standalone novels also. So I don't know that I have a preference. But I wouldn't want to see this romance novel between the same two characters all the time that is, like, it's not like a mystery, where you know, you have a detective or something where they can have different plots each time that are different, like it's, it would get very repetitive.

Unknown Speaker  15:40  
Right? It is funny for me to say that and to be like, well, because if they start together at the beginning, I know they end up together, like there's no excitement, but like, also, when I start a book, I assume they're gonna end up together.

Tessa  15:55  
I should clarify that it is a convention of a lot of romance genres, especially historical fiction Regency to have a series of books based on different couples that are tangentially related to one another, like, there'll be a series about a family, and each book will follow the relationship of each child in the family. So I guess I should clarify that. Right. Like, like brigitta. Like,

Unknown Speaker  16:27  
that's, yeah, I actually mentioned bridgerton later, in my notes, because the books I'm talking to talk about are three different sisters. So it's like similar.

Tessa  16:41  
But I also read a lot of fantasy, paranormal romances. And they've really been going through this thing recently, where you'll have a series of like six or seven books that focus on the same couple, or if it's a polyamorous or reverse harem situation, the same group of people. And it's, I think it's to make more money and a lot of ways because it's easier to make money. It's easier to make money off of a series than it is off of a standalone novel. I actually read a novel a series of novels recently, that it started in one genre, like a pretty straightforward, like, fantasy, reverse harem genre. And like, there was a whole arc over the course of four books. And then it shifted into like a completely different genre in the fifth book. Like it was the same characters, it was the same relationships. But it went from being like a standard fantasy genre to like a school genre. Like it was like all the characters, like lost their memories, and then they had to like find each other again, in this like, completely different school environment. It was the power of five by Alex Liddell, it was so bizarre, like, I don't know why she didn't just decide to write a different series. That's interesting. That's why it was not my favorite, I have to be honest with you, I, I kind of got to the point where I was like, I'm ready for this to be done. Like, I'm ready to move on to a different set of characters. Like we've already resolved all of the issues that these characters had before, even shorter.

Unknown Speaker  18:25  
I'm currently on book four in a series. And I like in book one feel like I figured out who's endgame. And it's taken like or not even there. Yeah. And like, we're just kind of starting to get there. And I'm like, Yes. I kind of

Tessa  18:43  
Yeah. Well, that brings me to my other question. Slow, medium, or fast, bird?

Unknown Speaker  18:49  
Slow. Slow to me, like nothing fast. Yeah, I like slow to medium fast. It's like what happened here? I feel like I missed something a lot of times.

Tessa  19:02  
Well, I'm gonna be really curious to see how those answers impact our discussion of the books and genres that you both want to present to us today. So let's start with you, Elise, let's start with your relationship with romance genre. Before we move into the book series that you want to talk about today. Well, I'm going to be really curious to see how those answers impact our discussion of the books and genres that you both want to present to us today. So let's start with you, Elise, let's start with your relationship with romance genre before we move into the book series that you want to talk about today.

Unknown Speaker  19:41  
So I feel like I read. No, definitely not. I feel like I read a real I don't remember even the author but I remember reading a boy in an extremely smutty romance when I was like a teenager and being like so secretive about it. Like under the covers with the with the Why can I come up with that word, flashlight, things like the flashlight, like hide it under my pillow, you know the whole bit. But I didn't really read more of them. But I remember feeling like very excited about it like it was like, I felt like raw, like I was being bad a little bit. And then I didn't read romance for a really long time. And I think I was a hater of things girly for a really long time. And, and I stopped being a hater of girly things before this. But a few years ago, I joined a Patreon slack for a podcast that I like. And one of the channels was is about books, I'm actually still part of this community. And so we had a book club, but like, there's other books that would every everyone in this community is like pretty big readers. So there was always some a lot, there was a lot of recommendations. And I feel like last year or the year before, whenever red, white and royal blue came out, someone had read that and suggested it. And I hadn't really read romance in a long time. And I've read like 30 romance novels since then. It's just like, talking with people that I'm friends with knowing. Okay, I liked the last book that person recommended. So I might like this one. A lot of people in that group do read like fantasy, romance, which is not actually my favorite. I'm not a huge fantasy reader. I did really like the Simon snow series that just ended by Rainbow Rao like that. My friend Melissa said that I like fantasy, but there needs to be roles. Like I don't like when it's like kind of really open ended. Like I need to I need like, Okay, this is how you do a spell like all these other things. So I feel like just from meeting more people and becoming friends with more people that like romance novels and have given me very good suggestions is in the last few years. That's how I got an into romance.

Tessa  22:09  
So how often do you read romance?

Unknown Speaker  22:12  
So I actually have some data for this answer. I use this app called, I use this app called story graph. It's similar to Goodreads. And actually, when you start using it, you can import all your Goodreads information into it. So now when I'm tracking books, I kind of use both. But I looked it up and it has all these amazing charts. So last year, I read about 70 books, and 22 of them were romance. And this year so far, I've read 25 books, and nine of them have been romance. So I read about 30% romance.

Tessa  22:46  
You have actual data to backup your answer. You are clearly part of Team list. Yeah. Yes. I love Yeah, I love tracking on there. But yeah, no, that is so cool. Do you I know you also have a Goodreads account. Do you keep track of that information there as well? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  23:12  
I also track my to be read on Goodreads also. That's like a big thing. Like whenever anyone suggests something I added on there.

Tessa  23:22  
What book or series did you choose to focus on for your monkey? Today?

Unknown Speaker  23:27  
I'm going to talk about contemporary romance or romantic comedy they often intertwine. Those are pretty much my favorite genres are that of romance. I just really like realistic stories where the not necessarily realistic. I mean, there's always like something wild happening. But just like I can relate to the characters, and some people might be interested in some of the same things. There'll be like pop culture references a lot of the time. It's just easy and they're not. They're not usually hard to follow there. And I don't mean complex, they're not too complicated. I don't mean that like the characters are boring or not complex, but it's just the plots you know you're already Yes, it's Yes, exactly. So I'm going to talk about some contemporary, romantic comedies. Today I'm going to talk about the brown sisters series by Talia Hibbert. tell you how Hibbert is a romance writer who actually focuses and this is from her website on positive representation for marginalized identities. So her her books are pretty diverse from race, culture. disability, queer, like her characters are very different and it's really awesome to see everybody kind of interacting with each other like it's not a big deal. It's just life and it's more So the way that this is a series kind of like what we were talking about earlier, where is there's three sisters, and each book is a different sisters romance. So they're in the same world, but they're not. And like the sisters kind of pop in and out of the other books, but they're not really the focus. So they're not, it's not like the same story all over again. So the books in this series are called get a life Chloe Brown is the first one. The second one is take a hint, Danny Brown and the last one is act your age Eve Brown. And they're all romantic comedies that are funny. The characters, there's very silly moments. Let's say. I should also say that these are pretty smutty. But I feel like this. And this happens a lot with authors like the smoke kind of gets dialed down as the books go on. Or I felt like the last book had like fewer sex scenes than the previous ones. But yeah, it's like similar to bridgerton, as you're saying before, where like, you know, the different siblings have different books. And then eventually, well, those are getting Netflix series put up. So I was gonna go into a little bit about the books just like a little blurb about all of them.

Tessa  26:21  
Please do

Unknown Speaker  26:22  
yes. So Chloe Brown. And I will admit, I picked this book up based on its cover. I was doing Book of the Month, last year. And this was one of the choices. So it looks cute, because all of these books have the couple like on the front. And they were like really cute. So Chloe is she lives with a chronic illness, and she makes websites she does like freelance websites. And she feels that her life isn't what what she wants it to be. So she wants to she's making an effort to like get a life, as the title of the book says so she has this list of things that she wants to do. And I was going to read the list. She wants to have a drunk night out, she wants to ride a motorcycle, she wants to go camping, have meaningless but thoroughly enjoyable sex Don't Don't we all travel the world with nothing but hand luggage because she's like, seems like a high maintenance person. So she probably has like a ton of luggage that she travels with and she wants to do something bad. So she, she meets this handyman at her apartment complex named red, and she decides he is the person that is going to teach her all of these things and take her on all these adventures. This book was really sweet. Spoiler, yeah, all of these, with everyone falling in love spoiler alert. For them for sure.

Tessa  27:56  
I feel like this is a good time to mention that as we are recording this we are in the week after the wonderful, wonderful meme. If I have learned anything from a romance novel I have learned. I just feel like that's really important to mention here because when you as soon as you said handyman, all I could think of was if I've learned anything from a romance novel, it's that if you have a handyman in your building, you are going to fall in love with him.

Unknown Speaker  28:27  
Yeah, it's true. Like so worn out jeans, you know, like long hair, he had like a leather jacket, of course. He has tools and stuff but he's also an artist but he doesn't show anyone his art. So obviously Chloe has to you know, make them a website. So they help each other. So one thing I really loved about this book is the talk about chronic illness. Um, they I felt it was pretty accurately described like they didn't make the whole book about that but like, Chloe knows her limits for her body a lot of knows when she needs to take a break and when she can't go out and basically has had trouble in the past finding a partner who understands that and doesn't treat her like she's fragile and like she just needed to find someone who respects her and understands that she might need certain accommodations and that that doesn't mean that she's like gonna break you know, so it was really cool. And I also like and this is true and all the books is like the chapters are kind of from different perspectives like they're all third person but like we do get to see we get you get inside of red head also, which I really liked.

Tessa  29:55  
Yeah, I always find it interesting because of course, a lot of romance novels are solely for What's usually the feminine perspective? Although of course, you get romance novels that are also entirely from a masculine perspective. But I think that they usually work better when you're switching perspectives between the two or more people that are involved in the relationship.

Unknown Speaker  30:17  
Yeah, I like I like to switch back and forth method a lot, because I do feel that you get a better perspective, you get a better understanding of both characters. Otherwise,

Unknown Speaker  30:32  
you can only trust the man and a buck if you get from his perspective. Love that. So do you guys have any questions about those before I move on to the next book? No, I want to read them. Yeah, you should.

Tessa  30:54  
I like what you said about her chronic illness and how it's woven into her character. And I appreciate that. It sounds it sounds I haven't read this book. But it sounds like Talia Hibbert has, it either has a chronic illness or has done a lot of research into people who live with chronic illnesses. Because in the romance genre, there's a really bad trope of having one of the characters be disabled, either as just an impediment to the relationship like, oh, like, he's not gonna love me because my hands are scarred or because I'm blind or you know, something like that. Or it's to make one character feel sorry for another character.

Unknown Speaker  31:37  
And I granted I read it last this one, the first one last year, but I if I remember correctly, it's not used as an impediment for the romance, but I think it sparks Chloe's anxiety within the romance. So maybe she's like, impeding herself a little bit at first, but I but it's not coming from read.

Tessa  32:01  
But it sounds like from what you said that the chronic illness here is a part of the characters life a big part of it, but it's not used in such a way that would evoke either of those tropes.

Unknown Speaker  32:13  
Yeah, no, no, it's not. So the second novel is about Danica Brown. She is a PhD student studying massage Noir. And she's looking for like a Friends with Benefits type person, and she could because she's like, over love. Danny will date people of any gender, which is awesome, because we love a queer romance. So at the beginning of the book, there's like this fire drill mishap at work. And something happens where this like sexy ex rugby player has to like rescue. And someone takes a video of it and it goes viral. So like she's like looking for this Friends with Benefits thing. And he wants to do publicity for like his charity or something. So they start fake dating, fake dating. my microphone was a classic. It was worth it. So yeah, so they're fake dating and then, but Danny doesn't realize that severe her sexy rugby player is a romantic, so they obviously have different ideas of relationships. And there's also some really nice descriptions of his strong thighs because he's a rugby player, which is wonderful. I didn't relate to this book as much as the other two, just because I don't know why I just like the other two a little bit more, but I really did enjoy this. I do like the two people kind of like unexpectedly opening up to each other like they there was no x there. They didn't have any like expectations. At first. It was just really nice. The only thing I'll say and this is just a me thing. This is not a book thing like Danny's queer and these people of all genders. But I think when I was reading it I was in the mood for like a woman loving women romance and obviously this did not give me that so I think I was a little disappointed but that was like on me that's not a reflection on the book at all. And I'm not one of those people whose like her queerness was a race like know, where people can date people of different genders. That's fine. Um, but yeah, so I did enjoy it. But I think I was in the mood for something else when I was reading it, but it was still really good. Like I gave that one foot four stars. It wasn't like it was like

Tessa  34:54  
I do also enjoy when the conflict in a romance novel comes from, too. characters who have different outlooks on life or who have different expectations or want different things instead of from like a outside villain, I do love a good romance villain. But I do think it's really interesting when the conflict comes from within.

Unknown Speaker  35:17  
Yeah, I think that's true with all of these books too. Like, the plot, the plots are there. But I, I think the difference between how the characters perceive the world and things from the beginning to the end is changing is like what's so enjoyable about them too, like, it's, you know, the plots are fun. And, you know, we love fake dating, but

Unknown Speaker  35:40  
like,

Unknown Speaker  35:41  
it's just nice that the characters kind of like change their tune a little bit by the end, but I don't think they ever compromise themselves, which is nice. So the third book, Eve Brown is a hot mess. She basically fails at everything she tries to do. And at the at the beginning, she's working to plan weddings, and she kind of ruins her friend's wedding that she lets hired her and she like, comes home. And her parents are like, She's the youngest sister and her parents basically give her an ultimatum. It's like a, I think they're a pretty well off family. So like, she's, she's doing fine. At home, and you know, she doesn't really want for anything. So her parents gave her this ultimatum about getting a job. And she like freaks out and drives and runs away. And then she lands at this like, bed and breakfast. And the the bed and breakfast owners name is Jacob and he's like a control freak. But I'm like, he wants everything to be perfect. And like a in like a nice way. Like he's like, a little bit rigid, but he does want his bed and breakfast to be comfortable for his for his patrons. Eve accidentally hits him with her car. And so his arms broke. Yeah, exactly. This was a very good meet cute. And so he can't actually like run the BMB because his arms broken. So she feels guilty and stays for a little bit to help him and there's like a big event coming up. And he has signed, yeah, he had signed up for like this event in town, I feel like it was by the Lake District in the UK, because all of these, all of these books take place in the UK. And there was some I don't know, he was gonna like cook something but his cook left. So he like was gonna be in this event. And he didn't have anyone to cook. So he was gonna stand in as a cook. And, and Jacob is actually on the autism spectrum too, so that they deal with that also in the book, but I don't I don't know enough about that to know if it's like super well done. But one thing I liked about it is that they talked about it in regards to touch and like sexual activities like how he would need like more pressure than like, if he's touched lightly. It was a make him very uncomfortable. And like things like that. This book had one of the hottest scenes and all of the books that I loved, and you will know when you get there. It was just wonderful. There's a sex toy involved. So you will just know.

Tessa  38:38  
I think the best recommendation anyone can give for a romance novel is when they say that there's one of the best sex scenes they've ever read in it. And you'll just know, you'll just know. You'll know.

Unknown Speaker  38:52  
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so she basically is helping him because she feels guilty. And then like, it's a little bit enemies, two lovers because they cannot stand each other at first. I mean, she's like, very loud. She has purple hair. And he's like, very put together and has his way that he likes doing things. And then she hits them with the car. So it's just a lot of fun controversy there. Yeah, so those are the three books. They're so good. And I there's other books similar where I, that I've read recently, where they're all different. It's like, you know, the almost fake series where they're all in the same world, but I just really like that because you meet the character, and then you're like, Oh, I can read about their friend now. And it's just very enjoyable for me.

Tessa  39:44  
I think one of my favorite things when reading a series that I know is going to focus on different couples like this is to try to figure out who the couple is or who one part of the couple is, while reading it.

Unknown Speaker  39:56  
Who's next? Yeah

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Always Yeah, like I have to call my best friend Sam who's in New York. Oh my god.

Unknown Speaker  40:09  
Yeah, there was one I read recently where like the two friends hated each other and so you'd like the next book was the two friends having like, enemies to lovers romance.

Unknown Speaker  40:19  
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I like a best man. Like bride a maid of honor Come on.

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
are like disaster honeymoon were the best I've read one recently where the best man and like the maid of honor like went on the honeymoon because something on honeymoon everyone at the wedding? Yes, yeah. Right. Yeah. That movie that book was.

Tessa  40:47  
Do you have any other contemporary romance books series authors that you want to recommend to our listeners?

Unknown Speaker  40:54  
Yes, I my number one recommendation right now is spoiler alert by Olivia dade. This book is a love letter to fandom and fan fiction. I also love it because it's kind of loosely based on reactions to the last season of Game of Thrones. So if you're a Jamie and Brienne Schipper, you will like this book, and I am so I loved it. It's just really great. There's like, the main characters plus size and like, She's so hot, like, you just know, she's hot. And she's awesome. And like, I just love that, you know, traditionally, I feel like in the past, like, there's been a certain way that the female protagonists in these romance novels has looked and acted, and I just really liked that authors are breaking those boundaries. It's really awesome. But yeah, that book is really great. Like, I got it from the library, and then I bought it because I was like, I'm gonna reread this one. And that author is writing another book that I think is gonna be a slow burn, which I'm excited about. I think it actually was supposed to be called slow burn, but they changed the title. But I do like that the title of this book is also called spoiler alert, like, that's really cute.

Unknown Speaker  42:12  
But yeah, that was awesome. But it has. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  42:15  
it has a turquoise cover. Also,

Tessa  42:17  
I was going to say I don't think the book I'm going to talk about today has a turquoise color, but it definitely has a very turquoise adjacent color, like a light blue.

Unknown Speaker  42:28  
Yeah. Listen, you go into Barnes and Noble and you see a path. You know what you're getting? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  42:40  
I mean, there's different shades. But yeah, I think the brown book was also like a light blue. screen. But yeah, and I'm, I'm not I haven't read this yet. But one of my co workers mother's wrote a romance and she's a romance novelist. And her name is Carrie Dodd Pinero. And I haven't read her yet, but she just wrote a book that is going to be a hallmark movie called South Beach love. And I think they're filming soon. And I told her that I told her daughter that my coworker that we were doing this. So I felt like I should plug that. So I'm very excited. I yes, it's uh, I think the family, the people, the characters are Cuban in it, and it takes place in Miami. And I think my hold was like, less than two weeks at the library. So I'm very excited.

Tessa  43:37  
All right, let's take a moment to talk about our favorite romance tropes. We've already mentioned fake dating. I think someone mentioned enemies to lovers. Megan, what are your favorite romance tropes?

Unknown Speaker  43:53  
Yeah, I mean, those are two. top two excellent of getting more Nish. There's only one bed at the end love. That's like Oh, no.

Tessa  44:13  
I think my favorite part of that trope is the argument that no, no like I'm gonna I'm gonna not I'm gonna respect you and not sleep. Okay, I guess I'll we can share a bed. You sleep? No, you don't sleep on the ground. It's fine. Ah, yes. Elise, what are your favorite romance tropes?

Unknown Speaker  44:36  
Oh, no, those were my three. I literally had fake dating enemies, enemies, two lovers in one bed or my tub. Sounds like Megan and I have similar

Unknown Speaker  44:49  
tastes we do but I'm about to pivot with Tesla. Because if you read fantasy, you get a lot of other stuff. Yeah.

Tessa  44:58  
So I'm going to take a little bit Have a different tack. And this might be a little controversial considering what you both said at the beginning of the episode about slow burn. I like a good fated mates scenario. Oh, I do too. Like, I bet this is very common in fantasy and paranormal romance, the fated mates, sort of an instant, kind of like Insta love, but not really, because it's two people who like are supernaturally bound together in some way. And I think it gets a lot of flack because sometimes people think that it doesn't provide enough conflict. But I think that if you write it well, which many I've, I've read many romance novels where it's written Well, it can provide this extra layer of knowing that they belong together, or two people who belong together but who don't necessarily like each other or have different goals or different expectations, but they're bound together in this way. And they kind of have to learn how to love each other. So it's kind of like enemies to lovers, but with like an extra supernatural twist.

Unknown Speaker  46:08  
I like when we know but they don't know. Like, that's the kind of faded stuff. I like another Classic Who Who did this to you who hurt you, you're stabbed you come home, and your enemies now mad because someone else hurt you. And you're like, I thought you hated me. Oh, that's a good one, too.

Tessa  46:31  
I like that. Also, arranged marriage can also sort of fall into this category as well. I do enjoy a good arranged marriage. there's a there's a series. But the first book is called radiance. The series is called the Wraith kings by grace Draven. But the first book radiants deals with like an arranged marriage between two people. It is a fantasy book, but they are a different species. And so they don't even find each other attractive at the beginning because they're, they just look so different from each other. And so the whole romances is that they're already married at the beginning, but they have to kind of learn how to be in love with each other, you know, since they come from two completely different worlds, like, I have to also say, especially when we get into the 19th century 18th, the 19th century stuff that I'm going to talk about later in this podcast episode, carriages getting trapped in a carriage with someone for a couple of hours. That is definitely one of my favorite tropes. Oh, Mitch.

Unknown Speaker  47:40  
I was gonna say I think that's the tweet I saw about that, that we were talking about earlier said if I learned anything from romance novels, it's that there's more than one way to take a bumpy carriage ride. I don't know whoever tweeted that. I don't remember who you were. Like,

Tessa  47:55  
you just know that if you're in a 19th century British romance novel and you're trapped in a carriage with someone for a couple of hours. stuffs gonna happen. I'm a real sucker for it.

Unknown Speaker  48:07  
I'm also gonna say lovers. Oh, the elevator. I like a friends lovers to like a flow. I I get like that too. is sometimes I'm in a mood for anatomies lovers, but I'm not mad at a friend. So.

Unknown Speaker  48:26  
Yeah, no, I get that. But yeah, the carriage ride definitely reminds me of like Grey's Anatomy and the the weight of elevators.

Tessa  48:36  
I feel like at this point, Grey's Anatomy is its own romance sub genre, like it has its own conventions and its own tropes at this point. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I feel like at this point, Grey's Anatomy is its own romance sub genre, like it has its own conventions and its own tropes at this point.

Unknown Speaker  48:58  
Okay, this is not gonna be that exciting. I Twilight came out when I was 12. You know? Twilight Pro.

Tessa  49:09  
Hey, listen, Twilight was a formative book for many people,

Unknown Speaker  49:14  
for many people. And for a long time, I didn't stand by that. And I'm sure if I read them now, I wouldn't stand by it. But it I did have opinions. And and then also, I was, you know, I was also 14 on the internet and was aware of Harry Potter fan fiction. So that's probably how I got started with romance.

Tessa  49:40  
So how often do you find yourself reading romance and do you like at least have the numbers to back up what you say? Do not have the numbers.

Unknown Speaker  49:52  
I do not have the numbers. What is funny is so I for like 10 years of my life. I didn't read fanfiction and I'm back with Like during the pandemic, I'm like, you know what, there's been a lot of content since I stopped reading fanfiction. And I guess I'm in this again. So I could tactically if I was to go into my archive of our own account, I could calculate how many words I've read this year. I'm not going to do that, because it would be a lot of work. And I don't know if I want to know that truth about me. But as far as how often I read romance, I go through phases, I think. So there'll be like, three weeks where I'll just read constantly. And I mean, I started a series on Sunday, and I just finished book for today, type thing, and then I'll and then I'll have a dry spell, where if I'm trying to catch up on the Oscars or something, I'll be, you know, busy. But once I every, every once in a while, I'll like, you know, download something, my Kindle and just remember how much fun I have. And then, you know, that's my next month.

Tessa  50:55  
Four weeks later. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, romance is definitely the genre that keeps me up past my bedtime, the most, oh my gosh,

Unknown Speaker  51:05  
I cannot tell you, I will tag friends of mine. And be like, I can't go to sleep until they get together. And recently, I was reading a book and like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say what book it is, cuz I don't want to spoil it. But at the very beginning, it was, it was a fantasy book. And there is romance. But at the very beginning, there's two people, they don't like each other. They're like the same type of magician. And they, like, keep getting in the same competitions and the same and I'm like, Oh, these two are gonna get together. So I'm reading this book, too. I am they're not together three. Like this is finished the book, and they do not get they don't even kiss. And I was like, What has happened? There's gonna be another book in the series, so anything could happen, but I was just like, I was up all night. They didn't. Okay,

Tessa  52:02  
that's really sad. Like, that's actually depressing.

Unknown Speaker  52:05  
It happens. I know. But I wish that you didn't lose sleep over it. I've lost sleep over stupid.

Tessa  52:17  
So what genre Are you going to talk to us about today?

Unknown Speaker  52:20  
So they kind of go hand in hand, but fantasy romance is one of my favorites. But I'm going to talk about fanfiction because we've talked a lot about tropes. And one thing that I've gotten so used to from reading a bunch of fanfiction is knowing exactly what you're getting into. Like, on the first page, I mean, you know, they won't give spoilers but they'll say, here are the content warnings. Here's Are you gonna get a happily ever after? Yes. Are they soulmates? Yes. Is their enemies lovers. Yes. Like all this stuff is just like, right out of the tags. And like, excellent. I can filter based on what I'm in the mood for, based on how long of a thing I want to read. Maybe I maybe I can't stay up till 4am tonight, but I need to hit what do we find a 20,000 word? Let's get it now. You know, it's, it's, you can sort by explicit mature, like, you know, like, there's a million options. And once you get used to the sorting, it's, I mean, it's fun, and there's just so much fun stuff you can do with that. I one of my toxic traits is I can't quite let Harry Potter go. And I really enjoy a lot of fanfic versions of the character. So that I don't know what your what your top ships are for that. So you can and I know Sam and I disagree. I'm worried to say it in front of Tessa. I'm a I'm a wolf star Sirius, Sirius and Remus, long term and then also Draco and Hermione. I know, okay, I feel ashamed. This is the most basic thing in the world.

Tessa  53:58  
But don't be ashamed. This is a judgment free zone. You like what you like,

Unknown Speaker  54:03  
this is a judgment free zone. And when I was young, I liked Drako in her mind. those are those are my top two.

Tessa  54:13  
Is there a particular series or work that you'd like to talk about today?

Unknown Speaker  54:16  
So I mean, it's I mean, I really just want to pitch fanfic, because there's a lot of good stuff out there. And I like every, every week, I'm just astonished that people are like, putting out free, like, you know, so much content and based on you know, just for fun, like they don't get paid they, I mean, they get comments and kudos. But at the end of the day, like this is kind of a hobby, but there's a really high quality stuff. I I think you should pick like you know, just like if you have a top ship, you just go and read like, see what the top like comments or top kudos the ones are in start there. I mean, the biggest one for serious and ramus is all the Young Dudes, which is like, basically, which number one is canon compliant, so it will make you weep, but now is just like basically the whole like marauders years at school and like you really get to, like, dive into the minds of that. But then also sometimes, like, I read one where all the Marauders were contestants of the Great British Bake Off, like there's anything.

Tessa  55:31  
There are no limits to the imagination.

Unknown Speaker  55:34  
There are no limits. You can like there, there are tags, like one there. There's random tags, but I read a book and one of the tags in the book and like the, you know, content warning was inappropriate use of the Malfoy signet ring. And you click on that there's like 25 This is why this had to be tagged. So yeah, I just think it's really fun. And don't get me wrong. It can be a crapshoot, there are people just putting anything on the internet. But you know, if you're, you know, if you look at the tags, and there's not something like, so I hate when people get pregnant. We're gonna talk about tropes we don't like so if I see a tag for pregnancy, I'm like, scroll scroll, move on. I don't want to stress about

Unknown Speaker  56:22  
don't enjoy books, even with the characters having children. I like I don't care.

Tessa  56:29  
You're like, I can only worry about so many people in this book. Right?

Unknown Speaker  56:33  
Well, and then the other thing, if it's a remisens series, it's like a male pregnancy so then there's a whole other thing you know?

Tessa  56:41  
Oh, yeah, let's not even get into the Alpha and Omega at all.

Unknown Speaker  56:44  
Oh my gosh, yeah. That's and that's what I feel like when people think of fanfiction. That's what they assume. And don't get me wrong. You can find anything on the internet. But there's a lot of high quality stuff as well.

Unknown Speaker  56:58  
There's just a lot of fanfiction that isn't even sexual. Like it's Yeah, doesn't have to be

Unknown Speaker  57:03  
100% you can because you can search based on like relationships or you can search based on characters. Yeah, so I mean, my friend really, like just finished a fanfiction. And it was like his first fanfiction. And he said to me, I looked at the tags, and there aren't any like relationship tags. It's just like Harry, Ron and Hermione. And they're like a retelling of whatever. And I was like, I mean, I wouldn't read this but props to you. I kind of have become so broken that I see all the Young Dudes by her name is Miss King being 89. And the joke on the internet is that that's Taylor Swift. Because you can put a lot of Taylor Swift songs to plot points in that book. Um, yeah, so I when I listened to August, I think about a fake made up character from a Harry Potter fanfiction. That was not canon at all. But I really see that as Canon and then definitely check the content tags for this one because this is dark but manacled is a really popular Draco Hermione fanfiction. That is an alternate universe if Voldemort had won the war, but check content warnings. This is not a joke.

Tessa  58:13  
Content warnings are important notice.

Unknown Speaker  58:16  
So fanfiction I mean, I just like it. I've become so broken like I'll watch a TV show and be like, Oh, I wonder what the top ship is? Like. I watched like an animation that's broken. I think that's normal. I watched an anime show and they're legit they're two characters who are like in the manga like interact with each other but in the show have not yet and now I'm like a hard I hardcore ship them. I've never seen them in the same frame of a TV show once and I have not read the manga. So I it's very entertaining. But I mean, I just I think if people assume fanfiction is all like, you know the supernatural people getting pregnant. And like you can find that but you can kind of find anything. Right? But I also another series of rooms that I really liked is all my cards are here. And I mean, it's ironic that you brought up chronic illness a lot of the times in non magic universes remez has chronic illness as you know, putting in for the werewolf thing I guess. So I mean, I think I like learned what spoons were in relation to chronic illness because I was reading fanfic so that's why I learned a lot from

Tessa  59:39  
Yeah, so I don't read as much fanfiction as I would like to I really should read more and you've kind of inspired me today to go find some more things that I would like. I just I'm always very impressed by the potential of fanfiction for the imagination of fanfiction. First off but also just the potential of fanfiction, too. For people to reinvent things, especially queer people to reinvent things to imagine queer relationships that are not perhaps textual in the original piece of art, or to reclaim things that are perhaps explicitly anti queer, or at least anti queer leaning,

Unknown Speaker  1:00:18  
right. And I mean, I think like, I mean, the impetus of Remus and serious being shipped was like, real time, before book five came out everyone was like, because at the end of book four series is told to go lay a lot or lie low at lupins. And the internet's like, Oh, God, is there a couple obviously, one represents the moon, but one represents the stars, they grew up together. Like, you know, David Douglas was told that they were a queer couple by alfonzo Khurana who just didn't check with JK Rowling made assumptions. So I think it just makes it like better that that does. Yeah, no, it's so everyone. I mean, there's like a ton of people on the internet who are like, in order the Phoenix, you know, Remus looks at serious for 52 lines, you know, people take it very seriously. But I think there is like, it's nice to reimagine it and like, you know, have characters who, you know, you might have been like, Oh, I could see them being bi, I could see them being pan, I could see you know, yada yada yada. And to be able to like easily find a version of that. It makes it feel like you know, it belongs more to everyone. And I mean, going back to you know what Elise said about like, comfort like, I already know the Harry Potter universe. You don't have to tell me about you know how Hogwarts works? I got it. We're in, you know. So I like

Tessa  1:01:39  
but the world building is there's just not so much pressure on the world building. It seems, right.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:46  
Yeah. There's also something nice about being able to engage with the characters that you like, without giving money to the bad person, big time,

Tessa  1:01:54  
a big, huge part of it. Well, I feel like it's reclaiming it in a lot of ways, from what you've said, from a series of books that frankly, I can't read anymore, because of my associations with the original author, being a turf. And so it sounds like the fanfiction is sort of a way to reclaim what you love about the series through reimagination through the understanding that these characters belong to the fanfiction writers now, instead of to perhaps the original author,

Unknown Speaker  1:02:30  
right? Well, because like JK Rowling's like, well, remix is straight and series is dead. And 1000s of people on the internet are like, no.

Tessa  1:02:39  
Yeah, and I appreciate Kaylee. Okay. Well, it's like all of the people who are like, Spock is straight. And it's like, no, make me there is

Unknown Speaker  1:02:54  
no one. I don't think there's anyone in Star Trek That is true. Like, none of you are.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:00  
None, no.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:03  
There There are tags. It's like, hashtag everyone's gay. Like I, I, there's a like, another really popular type of fake is like texting fix. And so like, that's just really easy to read. You know, it's like a group chat. And so they just scroll through. And I read one recently called Get off your phone, and it's very popular, and in that one ever. Sounds interesting.

Tessa  1:03:29  
That's really cool. So is it like collaborative.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:32  
So there are some that are collaborative, like, there are ones where like, two writers will team up and someone is, you know, serious and someone is Ramis I know this is my alley example, but it's like my main fandom, I apologize. But they're also somewhere so just, you know, kind of does everything. And it also has ruined texting for me because in this fake, they're like college kids. And so now I'm like keyboard smashing to like 35 year olds that I work.

Tessa  1:04:03  
All right, we talked about our favorite romance tropes. Let's talk now about our least favorite romance tropes. I know I personally have stopped reading a book in the middle or perhaps not even bought a book based on the types of tropes that are described in the synopsis. What actively turns you off of a book, or will prevent you from buying a book. If you know that it has this particular trope in it.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:30  
I'll go first. I know you're all quiet. I'm not into like, someone falls in love with a ghost like I don't I don't. I'm like not interested. Unless it's the TMG episode of Star Trek where Beverly crusher falls in love with a ghost. That episode is called something I said it's so campy and wonderful. Yeah, I don't I don't care about ghosts. I feel like I used to like this because of like she's all bad, but like i don't i don't Want to see someone get a makeover or anything like that, like, you're probably great how you are now that's, you know, and like someone getting over like a trauma like I'm not, you know, like if someone was assaulted or something and then you had to get over it with this other person like I just, I'm just not interested in that. I prefer a little bit more lighthearted romance than that.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:26  
I already said pregnancy. I don't I don't want anything to do with pregnant if I'm like halfway through a book and I'm enjoying it. And then she's like, wait, I haven't gotten my period. I'm like, I don't like that either. Yeah. I honestly I read books like this, but if I'm expecting there to be some space, and then there's a fade to black. I'll be disappointed. I'll keep going. But I'll be disappointed. Um, yeah, I mean, that's that's, that's kind of, I don't like I want to say that I don't want like a manipulative man. But I think I don't think I can stand by that. Sometimes. I will read things with manipulative men. I'm sorry. Twilight was very formative.

Tessa  1:06:14  
For me, one of my least favorite tropes is a billy romance. And this is not me judging anyone who reads Billy romances. Like I understand that romance is a fantasy. And if you enjoy that, you should read them.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:29  
I reading of ready bully robots. It's like the first one. I've really read it. I'm like, mad at it. I don't think I've read one before.

Tessa  1:06:39  
For me, there's just a line where if a character does something that I don't think should be forgivable, like, actively harms and other character bullies another character, you know, ruins their life in some way, or gets other people to harm them. And I'm not talking about you know, dark vampire that drinks people's blood. You know, like, I'm here for like a dark hero like I am. But for me, there's there's a line between dark hero and bully and I just can't stand it when it crosses that line. It actively pulls me out of the moment.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:16  
Yeah, the one I'm reading right now. Like, they all have different powers, obviously. And like, what are the guys like? Obviously, like, like, basically, there's two twins, and he made them like, lower their guards and like compelled him, compelled them to tell them his or tell him their darkest fears. And then him and his friends made that happen. And I'm reading this book, I'm like, I will never forgive them. Like the two books later on, like, it's complicated, you know, phase different than humans.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:52  
Get you by like it being in a different book.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:55  
So Exactly. I'm like, two weeks later, you're like, oh, his abs and like legs probably fine. I do. I mean, I think because I have a friend who will be like, you read book like, so this is a you know, low, y example. But Shadow and Bone. And then they I don't know if you saw this series or read the books, but they cast Ben by having read or seen it. Okay. It has been Brian. So I'm like, Well, I am already down bad for this guy. So my friends make fun of me because he's very much the villain. And, and I like venmar ins love him. And then they're like, you always are into like toxic like, the toxic man. And I'm like, because I don't suffer fools in my real life. I'm just reading like, escapism, I would never actually put up with this. If I told someone that my greatest fear was drowning, and they trapped to be underwater. I would never speak to them again, obviously. But it's a book.

Tessa  1:08:59  
So I like enemies to lovers. I like the clashes that can come out of different morality systems between two different characters. But that toxic masculinity really takes me out of the fantasy. I can't always describe accurately where that line is, without, you know, pointing to a specific example because I do read a lot of like paranormal romances where there's like an alpha male, and like, there's a lot of those like power play dynamics, or there's different moralities systems, and I totally get that. But for me when I see something on the page that I'm like, No, like, that's abusive. That's really what what triggers that like, I can't No, I can't read this anymore.

Unknown Speaker  1:09:39  
Right. Right. I will say also, like if I if I'm having enough fun, like, I'll excuse anything, you know?

Tessa  1:09:48  
That that's fair. Yeah, there's like a difference between like a bully and a school I think and like someone like what they're from the book loft. By kresley Cole who's like a centuries old vampire, who is like half mad because he has all these different memories from different people and he's a vampire. But I wouldn't also necessarily say that anything that he does in that book is unforgivable relationship abuse either. But yeah, I mean, like, again, this is this is all a fantasy. Like, if that's what you're into, like, cool. I it's just for me, it's very personally something that I can't, I just, it does not work for me. Alright, so I will talk a little bit about my own relationship with romance novels. I think I first encountered romance novels as a genre. When I was in my late teens. I remember very distinctly reading lady Sofia's lover by Lisa Kleypas. And I'm not gonna lie, I read that book last week again, there are just some books that live rent free in your mind. And that is one of them. So yeah, that was the first one that I remember reading start to finish. And I just absolutely loved it, everything about it. And of course, it was a 19th century historical fiction romance, which that that is the space that romance as a genre sort of grew out of, somebody really liked Pride and Prejudice, and decided to write a version of that with sex scenes, and that but that this is just my opinion, but that that is how the entire genre got started. And so you know, at that it has kind of evolved since then into its own genre, and its own sub genres. But that is definitely where I started. And definitely where the genre started as well was historical fiction, romance. I myself probably read romance novels, like two or three times a month, sometimes more if I get hooked on a particular series. Yeah, like Megan said, Sometimes I'll be like, Oh, it's been a week and I'm on book for, you know, time to start book five. I do not keep track because as you know, dear listeners, I empty no list. I have a Goodreads, I just don't use it, I probably should, I would probably keep better track of what I wanted to read if I had if I actually used my Goodreads. But this is where we are, I will say that I have like favorite authors that I keep track of. And that's one way that you can keep track of a list is that you just kind of read everything by a specific author. So like anytime kresley Cole releases a book, I'm gonna read it anytime the Leni saying releases a book. I'm gonna read it. Anytime Tessa dare releases a book, I'm gonna read it. And it's not just because we share a first name. But yeah, that that is actually kind of how I got into it and how I go about it. Like, I would just be like, Alright, here's this author. I'm going to read everything by them. Like all the series, all the siblings, I'm just gonna read about everything that they've ever published. But yeah, today I've decided to talk a bit about historical fiction romance, specifically 18th and 19th century. I know that's two centuries of British based romance as I would like to call it. I you know, a lot of people mistakenly I think refer to this as Regency romance. The Regency in Britain was like a nine year period, which people don't realize like the Regency occurred between the years 1811 and 1820. It was very short. It was when Queen Charlotte was basically ruling the kingdom because King George the Third was mad and his son wasn't really old enough to take power. It's a fascinating time, but it was a very short piece of time. And a lot of romance books are based during the Regency period, including bridgerton by Julia Quinn, which is why I think a lot of people conflate this. But not all of those books that are set in like 19th century Britain are part of the Regency. You have the Victorian age after that you have the Georgian period before that. But yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about this because I think it is one of the most well read and well known of the romance genres. In fact, a lot of people when they think of romance, they think about 19th century British romance, you know, Dukes and duchesses and the you know, the visit count who ruined me, I don't actually know if that's a real title. I just made it up. But it sounds like it's a real title. But 19th century British fantasy and actually what I'm going to talk about is 18th century British fantasy, but these two centuries have like this hold on our imagination, I think, mainly because of works like Jane Austen, like I mentioned earlier, mainly because of words like Jane Eyre, there was a lot of like comedies of manners. There's actually a lot of romances that were written during this time period. But of course, they didn't have the sexual content, the SWAT, the interesting bits that we have in more modern romances, and it is a fantasy. I mean, life during that time wasn't what I would necessarily call better than life during this time. But when people read these things, what they want to do is they want to escape into a world that has its own rules. That has its own constraints. It has Dukes and duchesses and, and romance and manners and all of these different things, but it's still a world that they can kind of understand. That's kind of familiar because they've read about it before. Like people have read books that are set in this era. Like I mentioned Pride and Prejudice. You know, things like that. And so they feel like they recognize this era, and they want more of it. They want to live in it for a little while longer. So today I am going to talk about the queer principles of Kitt web by Kat Sebastian Have either of you heard of cat Sebastian before I don't

Unknown Speaker  1:15:39  
read a ton of I guess period piece 1919 hundred's Regency, etc.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:48  
If I do read it, it's like modern written about that time not like from that time.

Tessa  1:15:54  
I see. So katsa Bastion specializes in queer romances set in the Georgian and Regency areas of Britain. This book just came out in June but because I'm such a huge fan of cat Sebastian, it has been on my list for a long time because I just read everything by her anything that she writes just goes automatically on my list. This particular book, the queer principles of Kitt web takes place in the 1740s I believe there's a couple of dates thrown in there. But so it took me a little bit of time to figure out when this takes place. So well before the Regency period This is definitely firmly in the Georgian period of the British monarchy during all those George's and the basic premise of this book is be gay do crimes. So it follows Kitt Webb, who used to be a high women, highway man, he used to stand to deliver coaches, which basically means he would stop coaches and Rob usually the rich people inside of them for all of their all of their money and jewels. But before the novel starts, he was in a terrible accident with his previous partner who died and he was left disabled, he took a shot to the legs, so this character is also disabled. And he now owns a coffee shop and is trying to put all those days behind him, but he is dreadfully bored. He misses the engagement that he used to have with the crimes that he used to commit. And one day a handsome and yet arrogant aristocrat Percy. Edward comes into his shop, and tries to hire him to steal a book that belonged to his mother from his father, the Duke of Claire kid decides that since he is no longer able to physically perform the robbery the way that he used to that He will teach Percy, He will teach Percy, all the tricks of the trade to being a highway man. And that is the setup for this particular novel. There's a lot of history between Kitt and the Duke of Claire, which we doesn't really become apparent until later. So he's kind of doing this out of revenge as well, but a lot of it's also that he genuinely feels this connection to Percy and wants to help him. It is sort of an Insta lust story. They do immediately feel very attracted to each other kit and Percy, but they are from different classes and kits a Basha usually does a really good job of this and all of her work. They're from different classes, they have completely different outlooks on life outlooks on money, the way that they interact with the world. And so there's a lot of tension especially that comes from their class differences. And from there that they sort of the history that Kitt has with Percy's family, but man, cat, Sebastian writes hot couples, like I can't even describe to you the chemistry that exists on the page between these two men in this book, like I can't even Yeah, like Elise already has it on her on her phone. And of course this is an attraction of opposites like Percy is very Sam and fabulous like he wears like these just ridiculously ornate, like purple silk, you know, concoctions with these like socks with clocks on them and wears like a wig and a beauty mark that's shaped like a heart. And of course Kitt is like this very down to earth. burly bisexual, like you know has stubble perpetually speaks at a growl type of person, but they both find each other like intensely attractive, which I always really appreciate. One of the other things about this book that I really also just appreciate about Kat Sebastian in general, because she's written so many queer romances over the years, is that she acknowledges that homophobia is part of the world in, you know, 1740s England, like, you know, it was technically illegal for two men to have sex with each other, you know, the anti sodomy laws and all of that. And she, she, you know, she brings that up, and she does have it there in the background. But beyond the characters being aware of it, and beyond the way that it kind of constrains their actions, it doesn't provide any sort of threat of violence in that way that never comes to the surface of the actual plot. So like Kitt. For an example, it does provide tension, you know, kit, for an example, when he's talking to Percy, you know, says like, Oh, well, you're

rich, so you can act, however you want your you know, you don't have to worry about, you know, being hanged, or, you know, anything like that, because your money will protect you, your family will protect you. And so that that is there. And it, you know, obviously makes them have to act in secret. You know, Kitt knows that he can't have, you know, a relationship with Percy, where, you know, they're public about being a couple. And, you know, they write letters to each other in code, which is, you know, he was a huge thing, you know, between gay couples in real life, you know, in, in the 18th and 19th century when they were trying to get around these laws. But again, it's not, you know, you don't have any homophobic violence happen in these particular novels, either. It's there in the background, it's part of the world. But it's not something that's going to intrude on on the actual romance plot of at all, at least not in cat Sebastian's books, which I appreciate because, you frankly, when I'm reading a romance novel, I don't want to be reminded of how terrible people are. But yeah, I loved this book, it is a slow burn, despite the instant lust I described earlier. Like they are very attracted to each other. But a lot of the first part of the book is Kitt, agreeing to teach Percy and then teaching him and so there's a lot of like, those slow burn, like they're they glance and they both know that they're attractive. And so there's this sort of coded flirting that's going on and you know, then later when he's teaching Percy, you know, there's a lot of, you know, furtive touches and like the awareness of, you know, the chemistry between them without, you know, actually acting on it. So it's, it's very much a slow burn that you both should be able to appreciate, even though that undercurrent of that chemistry is there from the very beginning. I'm downloading this immediately. It's really important that you know where your next romance novel is coming from that you have the next one lined up before you finish the one that you're currently reading because you don't want to go without that that hit of the romance novel for very long. I've already downloaded the audiobook, but yeah, I actually love the titles of Cat Cat Sebastian's books, like a gentleman never keep score the ruin of array, like the queer principles of Kitt web, like she's really great at naming her her novels. But yeah, I would really recommend cat Sebastian. I also really recommend other authors from this sort of genre. So Tessa dare, as I mentioned, is really wonderful. Especially her, especially her spindle COVID series is really, really great. Courtney Milan. She's really wonderful at this. Lisa clay poet, Lisa Kleypas. As I mentioned, Julia Quinn, who wrote the bridgerton series, Alyssa Cole, who has written both wonderful contemporary romance series, and also historical fiction series, Sarah McLean. There's a lot of really great stuff out there, especially the more recent historical fiction, romance has been really interested in writing complex characters exploring ideas about consent, exploring ideas about societal differences. Yeah, I would, I would definitely recommend this as a genre, if anything I've said appealed to you at all. And of course, you know, there's there's bad 19th century Brit romances as well, you know,

Unknown Speaker  1:24:17  
and as for there's, there's, there's bad on everything, anything that's, you know, bringing in a billion, you know, there's, there's gonna be some stuff in there. That's not Excellent.

Tessa  1:24:28  
Well, yeah, and I know that a lot of people have problems with a particular scene in bridgerton. And this particular genre has not always been the best with ideas of consent.

Unknown Speaker  1:24:40  
Right. That's what I like, in the morning. Yeah, you know, it's come

Unknown Speaker  1:24:46  
I've only seen the, the show of bridgerton. But that scene bothered me in the show, too.

Tessa  1:24:53  
Yeah. And, you know, while romance still hasn't gotten a lot of things as a genre right in some ways it has gotten a lot better over the last few years about talking about issues of consent.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:07  
So I was gonna say the last romance book I read neon Gods by Katie, Robert or Roberts. There is so much talk about consent in that book and that one is an Hades and Persephone a retelling. That book was very much a vehicle for the sex scenes. Um, which is fine. But yeah, they like they talk so because that that book also has like, some kink in it too, which I'm so like, consent was talked about, like, almost ad nauseum. But it was like, it's hot.

Tessa  1:25:42  
And of course, some people are like, well, it's a fantasy, especially when we are talking about things like fantasy like they're monsters, why would we want to talk about that? There are actually really good series that do still, foreground consent while talking about like monstrous relationships. The one that comes to the top of my mind is the house isidor series, which was written by Julie super cat. And it's like a six book series. There's a couple of novellas spin offs that I'm avidly reading right now that it's about vampires. It's about polyamorous vampires. And, you know, they're drinking blood. There's some, some BDSM you know, elements, there's supernatural elements to some of the sexual content as well. And yet, it is still very much interested in the idea of consent. It is very interested in every party being enthusiastically good with what's happening in the moment. So you can do it, I promise you, it can be done. And the thing that always like

Unknown Speaker  1:26:39  
frustrating about like Game of Thrones is I always felt like it was like, like, brushing over that or like, you know, like, like, even within the books like not grappling with how that would affect the characters. I'm like, if you're gonna pretend like this is for plot sake, then make it Have you know, relevance to the plot, like

Tessa  1:27:02  
what are you all looking forward to romance wise? What are some things that are making their way onto your list?

Unknown Speaker  1:27:08  
Well, it's funny that Elise mentioned red, white and royal blue because I just picked up one last stop, which is the new Casey McQuiston, I haven't read it yet, but it's on my shelf. That's like, next up.

Unknown Speaker  1:27:21  
I read that like, pretty soon after it came out. But yeah, I really like this

Unknown Speaker  1:27:25  
summer. And then my other one is, so I have not read all of Sara j maces. Books. I think there are some that people complain are not very diverse, or, you know, representative, but I read Crescent City, and I did love it and cried. Yeah. So there's, I think the next in that series comes out like in January, so I'm ready for that.

Tessa  1:27:53  
What about you, Elise?

Unknown Speaker  1:27:55  
Um, yes, my friends have been telling me about this book called it happened one summer by Tessa Bailey. It's a shits Creek inspired romantic comedy. So looking forward to that. And there's already a set. I don't think it's out yet. But there is a second book that's coming. So I'm gonna read it happen one summer, probably very shortly. And then now I'm also looking forward to the book that Tesla was mentioning.

Tessa  1:28:22  
I have tabs I have tabs open. That's what this podcast is for. If you can just get anything off of what we say onto your list. Or if you can use this as motivation to get things off your list. We consider it a success. All right, we're about out of time this week. Thank you both so much for coming on. Where can we find you online? Megan?

Unknown Speaker  1:28:43  
Yes, you can find me everywhere at spell Megan SP e o m e g a n. So that's letterbox, Twitter, Instagram, etc. And my podcast is currently on hiatus this summer. We will be back at some point but you can find us on Twitter at on the underscore download.

Tessa  1:29:02  
Hopefully you'll be back soon. I want to hear your takes on the green night. I have takes on the green.

Where can people find you Elise?

Unknown Speaker  1:29:14  
Yes, you can find me on Twitter and letterbox at Elise underscore 10 d e li se underscore t n di and you can find my podcast pod rakes a Deep Space Nine podcast on Twitter and Instagram at pod rates pod WRI T h s.

Tessa  1:29:33  
So you can find me on Twitter and letterboxed at suela Tessa Swehla is spelled SW e HLA you can find us on Twitter at monkey backlog and email us at monkey off my backlog@gmail.com send us your thoughts about the monkeys we talked about today. What pop culture you've crossed off your list lately, what you'd like for us to talk about on future episodes next week. I'm talking about my so called Life all eugenic Sirs, or anything that comes to mind. Our theme song is hot shot by Scott Holmes and can be found on Scott Holmes music.com please rate review and subscribe on iTunes. Follow us on Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Get that monkey off your back.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai