Sam 0:00 What does it matter where my body happens to be? My mind goes on working all the same. Yeah that's right. We started off with Through The Looking Glass Welcome to Tessa watches lost monkey off my backlog second weekly podcast are one of us reacts to a TV show that the other has forced us to watch. I'm your host, Sam. And with me is Tessa, the future jack with a beard on his face to my Kate future Kate with makeup on her face. Tessa 0:36 Why am I always jacker Sawyer? Oh, maybe you're the main care? Why are you always Kate Sam 0:43 making up for lost time here. This week, we're talking about the lost season three finale Through the Looking Glass to go with all of the other literary references that we've explored this season. Let's begin by talking about the moment where everything changes the moment when we see a bearded Jack, not on the island. But Well, probably not in Portland, too. But back in California. I don't know that I've ever been as emotionally affected by an episode of television. As the first time I saw this episode. Before I get your take on that. I just wanted to say a couple more things about that. And Dean Dalton does not get all the credit for this being the most emotionally effective episode of television I've ever seen. We are two very different kinds of TV viewers. And I wanted to talk about that here at the beginning. Because I am somebody who doesn't like to figure it out. It's, you know, I know I, I'm I'm pretty good at this stuff. But I don't need to do that. If somebody is entertaining me, I want to go along for their ride. And the thing about last is last is not an invitation to puzzle out what's happening. It's a ride. And I really enjoyed taking this ride up to a certain point. I think the point of comparison here is to nit Shamala and my channel on is somebody who is tricking you, you know he's tricking you and the game is to figure it out before he springs the trap on you. Classically, I hate the sixth sense. I hate it. Because in the first scene this is a spoiler for a decade's old movie. In the very first scene, Bruce Willis, his character dies. And that's what happens. And then in the next scene, people don't react to him because he's dead. I don't know what was so difficult about that. Somebody who hardly ever catches the twist early, I caught that from the very beginning and I was angry. I still am. Having said all that. I knew Jack was it. I knew we were seeing future Jack the moment the first scene started, it was just obvious to me for whatever reason it was. I know that for some people, it was a huge twist. I know for some people probably for most people, they figured it out over the course of the episode. But I felt really good about the fact that I called it and it wasn't, you know, like, smug that I got it for everybody else. It was adrenaline. I was on an adrenaline high for the entire two hours of this episode. Which is probably why I thought it was such a good episode, because things start to pay off in this episode. And you combine that with any level of excitement and you know, good stuff, man. But I'm sure you had a different experience. I mean, I was sitting next to you. But I know you had a different experience. And I want to talk to you about that. But one more Preface. I want to say Tessa 3:50 this another pre question. Sam 3:52 No, this is you know what? This is? This is where Tessa 3:57 what's silly about that joke is that's a reference to something that won't come out by the time this episode airs. Sam 4:03 That's not That's not nice. I'm just gonna tell everybody a little bit about you. That was I want to Yeah, the Tessa of the titular, if you will, Tessa 4:17 killer Tessa. Sam 4:19 It'd be worse. You could be the Durbanville Oh, my God. Okay. When we're watching something, and you get involved in it. A lot of times we talk because we're watching things, but sometimes you just get really in the zone watching something. And it is impossible to tell what you think about the thing that you're watching. You remember we said we watch the first episode of marvelous Mrs. Maisel, the new season and you went quiet, because you were angry. I was furious, actually angry, righteously, but furious. Every time you get involved in an episode you always look Angry this may be the first time you were actually angry. Tessa 5:03 Do I have resting episode face Sam 5:05 do so. So overall, what did you think about the use of the flashforward? Tessa 5:15 Oh, this is awesome. Like I liked this when they did it on arrow which obviously arrow, the last season of Arrow happened years after the end of last. So arrow arrows doing in its final season is clearly a callback to what's happening in last. But I love it I love I probably figured it out. I know exactly when I figured it out. Sam 5:41 And it was you figured it out before you said anything. But yes, something about maybe two thirds of the way through the episode. Tessa 5:49 Yeah, okay. Well, I didn't want to sound like I didn't know what I was talking about in case I ended up being wrong. You know, this. You know how it is. I figured it out when Jack got into the when he was in the emergency room. And the doctor says to him, Oh, you're a hero twice over. And this episode does a really good job of trying to fool us into thinking this is a flashback because it brings in his ex wife, right, who is still on his emergency paperwork. So it tries to convince us this is the past because we've only ever seen his ex wife in the past. It also has to make a reference to his father, like his father's still alive, which he isn't. It has some other references that are supposed to make us think like this is happening in the past. And it's not till the end that we're supposed to realize that it is after the island that all these events are happening. But when the doctor said you're a hero twice over, I was like, Oh, he's talking about the island. Like he's talking about Jack finally got them all off the island. And when his wife, his ex wife says I'm still your emergency contact and she's pregnant. The whole interaction between them to me felt like she was handling someone who had been through a significant trauma. Also, Jack is not addicted to drugs before the island like that i There is a world in which I could believe that darlton would get into their his addiction in a flashback however, if that were true, it would make absolutely none of his interactions with Charlie would make any sense. So I knew I just knew from that moment in the hospital that he that this was a flash forward and that we were doing something after the island. And it made me very excited. Maybe not as excited as you but I really did. Like you said they are running out of ways to use the flashbacks effectively. And I'm glad that they found another tool in their arsenal to be able to tell the story and to continue telling the story. The question I have is are they all flash forwards now? Or is the island the flashback now like I'm very I'm very interested to know what the structure is going to be like going forward. Sam 8:01 So I think that they want us to believe that this is the jack who's just returned from Thailand. And and this makes sense. Like Tessa 8:10 he's too traumatized. Dude, Sam 8:13 getting like, beat up by multiple people and then kicked out of the country which first of all, he might have broken several bones, which is how he got on the narcotics to begin with. I'm not saying it's plausible. No, what I'm saying I think that's what they want you to believe the Tessa 8:28 jack we see in these flash forwards is not the jack that crashed in that plane and took over the situation immediately. He's a broken person in a way that is not plausible for his character, pre the island, Sam 8:44 right? And this goes this goes back to what I was saying before. What you do as somebody who's making this episode of television, is you create a plausible narrative. You're actually telling the story you want to tell the whole time. But the Mr. Act has to be strong enough. For somebody who doesn't know that a Mr. Act is happening or is not trying to find the Mr. Act. So the thing about it is this could plausibly be there are enough facts in the episode to support a narrative. This is after Thailand. I think you're right. I think that it's easy to see that that's clearly not what it is. But if you're not looking for it, Tessa 9:27 right, right. Yeah. Yeah. If you were like, it's more Sam 9:32 like what happened in Shaunavon second movie unbreakable. It's all there, but it's a little bit more. Tessa 9:38 See what I was thinking actually was the prestige by Christopher Nolan. That's a good that's probably a better where they actually tell you what the twist is at the beginning of the film, but spoilers for the prestige. Basically the movie tells us it's twins. They are twins. That is how he is doing this magic trick the way that he is doing it. But then Hugh Jackman Rival musician magician character becomes so convinced that it can't be that it can't possibly be that simple. And he takes you along for the ride because you're like, yeah, he's right. It can't possibly be that simple. But by the end of the movie, the whole twist is, is that he somehow made a more complicated version of the trick. Then the original trick, which was just went, Sam 10:20 Okay, so if the hospital scene is when you figured it out, though, what did you think was happening before that? Tessa 10:28 Oh, you know, I I had a really brief moment on the plane where I was like, This feels like it should be after the island because of the way he reacts to the turbulence. I see. Yeah, but then I thought, oh, no, this is just ironic. Like, this is just supposed to be like, Oh, haha, you're actually gonna be in a plane crash like here in a few months or whatever. I don't know what I thought was happening. I just thought it was a jet. Another Jacques flashback. Sam 10:54 Alright, so Jack is depressed, addicted Oxycontin. And very clearly suicidal. He hasn't taken being rescued well. And, in fact, he's using his oceanic airlines golden ticket every weekend in an attempt to get back to the island. Do you have any thoughts on what has happened? What happened in the time that we have not seen yet? Tessa 11:23 No, although I'm sure stuff actually traumatic events actually happen. I'm sure that that is the case. However, knowing Jack and knowing what I know about people in these situations, it does make sense that someone like Jack wouldn't react necessarily to integrating back into normal life very well. I mean, he is dealing with trauma, just because he was the one who kept it together on the island doesn't mean that he didn't also go through a trauma as well. And now that he doesn't have to keep it together for everybody else, he sort of falls apart, right? He's having to deal with that trauma. Again, I know other stuff happens to contribute to where he is. But it would actually just make sense from a character perspective that someone like him would have difficulty not like when you're in his high stress situation for an extended period of time your brain adjusts to that. And going back to like, quote, unquote, normal life might not, it may not work for him anymore, it may not be something that he can like just go back to. So that would make sense to me, just based on that. Quick note, before we move on, though, I would just like to point out that him flying, and the fact that they got like this golden ticket apparently for life. I mean, it makes sense. Obviously, they probably got a lot of a huge settlement right from the airline or whatever, and this was part of it. But I just want to say that my other favorite show that involves a plane crash Meredith Gregg couldn't get on a plane again for like three seasons like Did she have a golden ticket and just didn't use it because of the trauma like, like everybody who was in that crash could not get on a plane for a long time they bought a hospital tests. That's true bottle they did by a hospital, I forgot about that. Sam 13:05 I mean, a lot of things that happened. Kate is apparently not a fugitive anymore. Tessa 13:11 We'll get to I'm very curious about that in Sam 13:13 a minute. The inciting incident for the episode is not about Kate though, it's about somebody who's dead, which is another misdirect, right. It's supposed to be some sort of like who in Jack's life has died? Who we know from the the flashback, right? But I don't think it's a spoiler to say and I mean, I know who it is. But I don't think it's a spoiler to say that this is somebody we know. Yeah. And we know a lot of people though. So do you have it's obviously not Kate, who is it? Any guesses? Tessa 13:49 So, I have a couple thoughts. But I don't really want to commit to anybody because I legit don't know. Like, I've been thinking about it since we watched it. I have some ideas because it's someone whose death upsets Jack, obviously, because he starts crying when he reads the obituaries. Are Sam 14:05 you thinking about? Three? Tessa 14:07 Let's hear okay, hold on, and I want to explain it I want to explain. I want to explain my thought process. And I'll give you the three names. So somebody whose death upsets Jack, right? Because he starts crying when he reads the obituary, and that sort of prompts his suicide attempt or suicidal ideation or whatever we want to call it. He goes to the funeral and nobody's there, like nobody has come to the funeral. It has closed casket, the the director says that he was the only person who showed up so it's somebody who is not perhaps well liked amongst the other Losties. And he's surprised by this, though, like he's surprised that nobody showed up. Thirdly, when he tells Kate about it, at the end of the episode, she says, Why would I go? So it's obviously someone that you she's either angry with or just doesn't have like any emotional investment and here are my thoughts. John Locke Then, Juliet. I hope it's not Julia, just for the record very interesting. Sam 15:05 Like, I think that by first I'm not going to say whether one of those guesses is right or not, but that one of your guesses was one it was my guess. Tessa 15:14 Okay. I have one more, but it's an outside chance. It's like, I really don't think this is it, because I think it would be a bad decision to do this. Yeah. Sawyer, right. The only reason I say that is because it could be a Mr. act at the end. Like why would I go to his funeral? Because she's like, angry at him because he did something horrible or something. Sam 15:35 So that that leads me into the next question. It's actually two questions together. Who is waiting for Kate? She says, I have to go. He's waiting. Yeah, so that Sawyer somebody else. And why doesn't she want to go back to the island? Jack really wants to go back? Mm hmm. Why does he want to go back? Why does she not want to go back? Who's waiting for her? Do you have any ideas about this? Tessa 16:01 Yeah, so we're supposed to think that the he is Sawyer in a situation and like the odds are he probably is Sawyer. Like, I'm not. That doesn't seem like I'd be surprised if it was someone else. I mean, not unpleasantly surprised. I would just be surprised. Sam 16:15 It's Walt. It's who shows up in this episode, but Oh, Tessa 16:20 my God, maybe it's Michael in the casket. Oh, that would be Ooh, because I could see why people would be mad at him. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. That's interesting. That's a good one. That's a good guess. A good one. It's Sam 16:34 a good thing. You don't have to wait like, Mom. I know. We can literally start watching it right after we record this. Isn't that nice for yascha? God? Tessa 16:41 Yeah. So anyway, I'm just with the I've been thinking about that a lot. Anyway, so that could be the case. I'm more interested in why she's not a fugitive. Like she has to meet Jack and secret, apparently, and I'm not sure why. And at first, I thought it's because she's a fugitive. Like, it's because she doesn't want people tracking her through him. But no, she's like, well settled and like has makeup on her face. Not that you can't have makeup on your face as a fugitive. That's a weird thing to say. Yeah, it's actually well known. Yeah, but she got she got a golden ticket just like everybody else. Like she's not in prison. Like I it's, I am very interested to know. What she like was time served on the island. Like what? Sam 17:23 Well, I mean, and it's it's a calculus, right, like, okay, so like being stranded. You know, being in a plane crash, being stranded on an island for 90 ish days, apparently will exonerate you, like, in some sort of time served basis for murder twice over. Let's see, the whole fleeing thing being a fugitive. I mean, like crossing international like Australia is fine with it. I mean, I don't know man, like what would have 120 days have gotten the Tessa 18:01 Marshall did die. And I'm not saying that that's like a way to get you exonerated. But I am curious if like, maybe he was like the only person who really cared about it at the department and so without him like nobody was willing to prosecute, Sam 18:16 do you think do you think, say aid? For example, do you think if if they wanted to bring him to justice, quote unquote, justice as a former Republican Guard torturer, do you think he would have been forgiven? Do you think that Sawyer I mean through your arguably has committed lesser crimes but do you think they're like if Kate's been forgiven for what she did? Right, is everybody else fine? Tessa 18:43 Well, Sawyer has served his time I don't think for that rain Yeah, but remember in Australia when they murdered somebody Sam 18:52 yeah but murdered Anthony Cooper nobody Tessa 18:54 knows well yeah, but nobody but luck knows about that. And maybe we're so um, but we're still wasn't gonna leave the island remember? So we don't know where she is. I going back to Jack again. I know that there's going to be more information like it would be premature of me to just say this goes back to his character obviously stuff is going to happen that makes Jack think that the he has to go back to the island. I think he's catching whatever walk has like, because Long Island fever. At the end of the episode is at the end of the episode Locke says you're not supposed to do this because at the end of the episode, John, you see you're making me forget names. At the end of the episode, John tells Jack you're not supposed to do this. Like it's not supposed to happen this way. Like we're supposed to be here and then he walks off so presumably John has not been rescued either like or so he stays on the island presumably. So I think that there There's a couple of different threads. That could be the case here. One, Jack is suffering from what I talked about before in terms of he's going through a lot of trauma, he can't handle normal life anymore. And that could still be part of it, even if there's other stuff going on, right? The other side of this is, what if he came home and he's noticing things are wrong? Like, you know, like in a horror movie, where like, somebody comes home, and like, just stuff is just like not right? You know what I mean? Like, there's actually a thing for it, like, you start, like Invasion of the Body Snatchers kind of horror, where you're like, This is not the person that I knew, you know, like, that could be one way of interpreting it. Like he comes back stuff isn't right. And so he feels like perhaps when they came back, something changed or something changed them. I don't know, I'm spitballing. Here, I'm sure again, the next few episodes will make it much more clear. Maybe why he wants to come back to the island, Sam 20:57 or they'll just spread it out. Tessa 21:00 Kate is not interested. It's interesting, though, to note that she seems happier than Jack, which is a complete reversal of their roles before the island. And we haven't seen anybody else. It's just the two of them that we see in this flash forward. I mean, I think he mentions the others, like, have you talked to any of the others or whatever. But he, so obviously, they're not even in contact, right? Just chat to something so terrible that Sawyer like won't let Kate see him? Is that why they have to like meet and secret? And how bad does it have to be where Sawyer is offended? I am genuinely curious about this conversation they have at the end. Sam 21:37 To me, that's a question that I wanted to ask you. Because your opinion of Jack has changed over the course of this season. This is clearly a very tragic reading of this character. Tessa 21:51 So I was a good one, though. Well, Sam 21:54 but so the thing I wanted to ask you about today is does this change your opinion of him? I'm not asking if it rehabs his character to you at all. But do you still feel the same way you did prior to watching this episode? Tessa 22:11 No, but not for any of the reasons that we've talked about in the flash forward. Sam 22:15 So the stuff on the island? Yeah, okay, we'll get to that. This flash Tessa 22:18 forward just made me have more questions, which is good. That's good for this show. Like I was worried but with all the other flashbacks that didn't really do anything this season. There were good flashbacks or bad flashbacks. But there was a lot that didn't do anything this season. This flashback made me excited to watch the future episodes. Sam 22:36 And just remember from this point forward, they have negotiated the number of episodes right and the plan, supposedly, and unlike the first two seasons, all the episodes will be shown without interruption. And unlike this season, no pod. Seasons four or five and six are like Season Three without the pod. Alright. Okay. So the last thing I want to say before we get back to the island, is the thing that got me about the episode like I was already on board with what they were doing, I was really excited about it. At there is a I'm not going to call it a needle drop. I'm going to call it what we used to call it which is a Music cue. When Jack is driving around in his jeep, there's a there's a Music cue. It is it's It's the song scentless Apprentice by Nirvana. And I mean, like that hit me right away for a couple of reasons because it tells me a lot about Jack. And what they want us to think about Jack. We know from the last book club that they are very big on inserting book titles that have deeper meanings, I mean the title of the episodes through the looking glass. But I think this musical cue does more than any of those book titles have done. So scentless apprentice, it's his Kurt Cobain's take on a novel called perfume. And we're just going to leave that where it leaves I want to talk about the biggest. I want to talk for me about the bigger thing that it signifies. There's a line in the song you can't fire me because I quit. And so Dave Grohl years after Kurt Cobain died, he said if there's one line in any song that gives me the chills, it's that one. Maybe all those things that people wrote about him painted him into a corner that he couldn't get out of. That's what's happened to Jack. That's why when the other doctor asked him, What were you doing on the bridge? That was it. And and many people argue, you know, Rob Sheffield, wrote about how in utero is a breakup album, which is a marriage like a divorce on which it very much is I really like his reading of it. But it also serves many people positives as suicide note You know, the album starts with the line, teenage angst is paid off well, but now I'm old and bored. We go straight into you can't fire me because I quit. The song Francis farmer will have a revenge. He says, I miss the comfort in being sad. Later on on the album, there's a line. If you need any help, please don't hesitate. And as someone else first, followed by a song that is actually about suicide, you get Penny royalty, which is about abortion, which may just be a metaphor for wanting to abort yourself. I commit suicide. The album ends with all apologies. This is the album that Jack is spinning in his car, on his CD player, Tessa 25:43 because we had those, this Sam 25:45 is what he's thinking about while he's driving around. And I mean, like, I know, this is true, it he is not the only person real or fictional. Who's done this berry thing. So, you know, I was like, Oh, I understand this. I get what's happening here. And so it's like, what has gone so wrong. Because this episode, of course, ends with Yay, we're being rescued. Hurray. We got here. This is not good. Tessa 26:12 Yeah, at the end of this on the island, part of this feels like the end of something like lifeboat would we locked watch recently, like, it's the end of the movie, right? You get rescued. And that's the end of the movie. Sam 26:24 Right? That's typically the way it is. Yeah, Tessa 26:27 the end of this season with the flash forward is what takes us into the next season. But the end of the story on the island feels like the end of the series, like it feels like and then some finale Sam 26:39 and I told you, I said that in some ways, this is very much the end of a series. In some ways, the back half of last, the second half of the show, is a different show. And I say that as somebody who's deeply disappointed by what happens toward the end of the show. You know, it was like the promise of these first three seasons, I don't think is fulfilled. Now there's some really good things that happen in the next couple of seasons. Before we get to the end game, Tessa 27:14 I am just impressed no matter what happens with the show, I am just impressed that I really like it when shows take risks like this. I like it when they change genre. And I like the idea of not just doing the same thing over and over and over again right like what they had was good and they built on it but now it's time to move into something else and I'm happy that that's what they're doing whether or not you know good or bad things happen like you said I hope mostly good things but Sam 27:46 so let's now go to where Jack can't the island back to the Hello right we have to go back and so we will so first up course sighs plan goes wrong like that was ever gonna work. And and Bernard siete and Jen are captured. Kate wants to go back to rescue them. Jack gets angry and forbids it. Sawyer decides to go instead. And this leads us to a sawyer and checks notes Julie yet Juliet side mission Tessa 28:22 team up team up I'd like to really quickly note that it was not Bernards fault that the mission went askew it was Jin's fault askew I mean like but that was setting us up to think that Bernard was gonna mess it up right because like because it's Bernard well because gin and siete have the most experience even though experience Sam 28:40 to gin have and I know what you're thinking he's a mob Tessa 28:43 enforcer. Sam 28:45 He used his hands for that whatever anyway should have said was he was in the military. Tessa 28:50 He was all Yeah, that was that we were reminded of that this episode. Yeah, I forget about that. But yeah, no, Bernard hit his shot. He Sam 28:57 he was not gonna miss his shot. Tessa 29:02 But yeah, things go wrong. They're captured. I was very worried about them. Actually, I really wasn't sure where they were gonna go with that one. So but they managed to take quite a few of the others down with them. Sam 29:12 Right and so we'll we'll come back to them. But meanwhile, Ben, Ben might be losing control to know for sure with what's going on behind those bug guys, but Tessa 29:23 he's so angry. Sam 29:25 So Tom, Richard McHale, Alex, Jacob, question mark, all seem to be pretty angry with him. Tessa 29:36 It's hard to be bad. It's hard to be the man in charge is hard. Heavy Sam 29:39 is the head that wears the crown. Tessa 29:43 So I didn't mention this last time or a couple times ago. I'm not completely sure when this came up in the in this series, but I remembered it the other day. Another literary reference that we haven't really talked about. I mean, we talked about it when he introduced himself as Henry Gale in the second season, but John Locke actually does tell him at one point Wait, like, you're the wizard like you're the man behind the curtain? Yep. And I feel like the curtain has not only been drawn back but everyone is real mad at that dude. Sam 30:11 It's gonna be which Tessa 30:13 impacts his ability to communicate which we're going to talk about here in a bit. But yeah, he's a very angry to the point where he like, he knows that Alex has betrayed him and like rage drags her to Russo. Like basically abandoned his child in this episode. Where Sam 30:30 are we gonna do cursor sudden, but inevitable betrayal? Or I have abandoned my child? Which one pick Tessa 30:36 a lane abandoned to my child? Okay. Sam 30:38 So locks mad at Ben to what with the whole being thrown into a pit? And But speaking of lock, is that Walt Yeah, who is definitely not way taller than he was last time we saw him. He tells lock that Tessa 30:54 the camera angles doing a lot of work in this scene? Sam 30:57 Well, I mean, of course, the the inherent question here is, is that really Walt? Or is it something else? And if so, what but the real question I want to ask you is, he tells Locke that he still has work to do. What work would that be? Well, we don't know Tessa 31:13 is the thing that episode doesn't resolve this lock pulls himself out of the pit magically healed because the island does this right. And that should answer that question, right? Yeah. I mean, it has something to do with the island. The island needs him for something. But the only thing he seems to do in this episode is to try to stop Jack from getting everyone rescued. Sam 31:33 So if the island needs lock, does it not need Ben anymore? Because Ben seem to think that Jacob, the island, karma, the I don't know, whatever needs one and only one person. And so Ben's fear is, and that's why it gets pushed in the pit, right? Is that if lock is the preferred one, there can be only one and so it's not bad. Tessa 32:01 See, I think, oh, man, I can't say this without spoiling a book that you haven't read that I know you want to read. It's a situation where the island connected with Ben in this way, because they wanted Ben to do something or be something for the island meets Island, right? Then sees it as a way to seize power because Ben is inherently a cult leader type, right? Whatever you want to call that. I try not to diagnose people that I don't know. But he has a very Colyer mentality. He wants this power he wants to be the special one, the only one right we've talked about this before. So I think that he has a chokehold on whatever this island is by making himself the only communicator he's he is he's not doing the thing that the island wants him to do and that's why Jacob whether real Jacob or the island or whatever says help me to lock I think that's real. Think that's real. And that's why I think the island is talking to lock now. The question is, is it also talking to Jack? Because is that what the board is telling us? Because yeah, lock basically his whole thing is that he shows up at the end and tries to stop them from leaving the island and he even threatens to shoot Jack, but can't do it. Sam 33:23 So this leads us to the jack and Ben standoff girl worker. Then orders the death of Saeed Jinan Bernard Jack beats Ben to a pulp super super pulpy. In this episode reasserts Jack as a leader. So this episode reasserts Jack as a leader, right? He was the clear leader from the first couple of seasons as soon as he doesn't have to be a leader for a very short period of time. And it seems to be a relief, which is contrasted by the fact that he does not know what to do with himself in the flash forward. This is the time where he really seems to reassert himself as the leader and just accepts it, which is how we get to the flashforward. So knowing that knowing that Jack is somebody who is a leader and is now lost without that role, how's he doing? Tessa 34:23 So it's interesting because this entire season, I've been talking about how there are a couple of like there's dissent in the group, right? And the the most obvious example of that is Locke, who goes off on his own because Locke doesn't care about the last days. But I've also talked about how Saeed is like making some plays for leadership here and then we also have the whole thing with Sawyer Tate stepping up while Jack is inside are gone. Saeed recognizes Jack as the leader in this episode very specifically, because Jack is going to stay and he says no you have to go and when you go Don't look back like don't come back for us. You keep going it does not matter what happens like I don't mind dying, but I want my death to mean something And when Jack asked him why he says it's because they need you. So siete is very specifically acknowledging Jack as the leader here. And despite their disagreements, despite their, you know, difference in methods and so on, I think Jack really shines in this episode as someone who takes it at their word, right? Because he is willing to let them die in order to to buy the other's time, even though he obviously hurts him greatly. Sam 35:25 And it's really interesting, as you're saying this, it's occurring to me, something I had not thought about before, is that, you know, he makes the sacrifice for Kate earlier, right, because he wasn't a leader when he was captured when he was getting to know Juliet. When he bargained his way off the island, he was just being a person again. And then, you know, we know he's a leader when he's willing to sacrifice or Kate, inside, Kate is a woman he loves, who he makes a real sacrifice for. And then, then, on top of that, when Juliet insists that to go back, and face danger, he actually just lets her do what she wants to do. Contrast this with his wife, with the woman in Thailand, he's actually it seems that he's actually learned. Right? What it means to not always have your way to make a sacrifice to let other people have agency. I mean, it's not perfect. Tessa 36:37 He's learned how to lead without controlling, right, which is the opposite of Ben, who has to control everything. Yeah, yeah. And I really liked because one of the big implications this season ever since the end of the pod, is that the reason he lets keep go, or he tells Kate not to come back, right. And he makes that sacrifice is because he saw that she was with Sawyer. And so Juliet says, oh, it's because he saw you together. You know, like, there's all these implications. Even Ben assumes that that's why he lets her go. But when K asks him, he says, No, I did it because I love you. Like he actually says it in this episode. Right. And so clearly, Kate is also very conflicted about her feelings for Jack at the end of this episode as well. So right, right, and then we get a lot of snark, between Juliet and Sawyer, even though Juliet kisses Jack before she goes by. So we do get a little bit more of the love quadrangle, whatever we're gonna call Sam 37:32 it. It's mostly resolved to be perfectly honest. Right, but it's because Sawyer can't ever let anything go. Right. So before we talk about being in love, and some very heart rending ways, we have to talk about one bright spot in this episode. Hurley to the rescue really Tessa 37:53 saves the day. Oh my god. So one of the things that really disturbed me at the end of the last episode, and this episode is how pap phobic everyone is suddenly about Hurley and I know it's because they're trying to protect him, because they're trying to be like, like Charlie says, No, you can't come with us because you're too big and you can't fit into the boat. And he knows because Charlie knows he's gonna die and like, he doesn't want Riley there. And then like, he volunteers to go with Sawyer, and yeah, and then they and then Sawyer says all these fat phobic things for him to try to protect him. I don't like it. I am sorry, I don't like it. I understand that they're trying to protect him. But those are just some really terrible things to say to him. And you know, I don't like the way the show talks about Hurley's weight. Right. And Sam 38:37 I mean, they're saying, you know, that course we you say the meanest thing possible? Because you know, it's not okay. Because not only as you said, it's bad phobic. It's infantilization Why don't you just explain yourself like a normal human being actually no human being would do the fat phobic thing, like a decent human being. Tessa 38:58 I hate this trope anyway, this idea of saying something mean to someone in order to protect them. I think it's like you said it's infantilizing. And it's also really harmful like because if you can imagine the thing that would hurt that person the most and you say it, it means that on some level, you either think it's true or you think a version of it is true. I just I don't like it. And I really don't like the way that it's linked with Hurley's weight here. Plus who says that somebody who is fat can't be of use. Clearly it works because Hurley saves all of them. He drives the bug right into the middle of the dude's sorry, he drives the bus right into the middle of the dude's and saves Sawyer, Saeed Bernard Qian and Juliet. Like a mother effin hero, Sam 39:48 Mother effing hero. Tessa 39:51 So here's the thing that I think about Ben and the others in this episode. So Ben tells Jack, this woman who was parachuted in is not who she says she is like this boat is going to ruin everything. The island is under attack, you can't contact them like we can work things out. You just can't contact them. Right? And Jack's response to that is I don't believe you. Right? And he's not the only one, right? He's not the only one. Because there are several moments like this that I thought about this in the episode where and then even after Hurley calls Jack and says they're still alive, they're all still alive. Ben's like, Okay, I lied about that. But I'm not lying about this, then and the others have become the boy who cried wolf. Yeah, because they have lied. And this episode really brought this home for me. They have lied so many times and done so many terrible things to the others that is impossible for the Losties to be able to trust them or even accept that anything they say might be true at all, because and this is really it was really bought brought home to me by the scene in which Tom surrenders to Sawyer and Sawyer kills him. And I think it's Hurley, who says he surrendered. He said he was it was over, and Sawyer just says, I didn't believe him. Yep. And to me that you did it to yourself, right? You did it to yourself, you can't treat people that way. And then expect them to treat you back with any modicum of trust, right? Like, to me, this episode was really come up and for the others, in terms of you've asked around, and you found out, right, you can't, you cannot continually lie to someone and then expect them to team up with you or believe you in any sort of meaningful way. And that was very, I don't know why that was such a satisfying way of this playing out for me, but it was. Sam 41:51 So I'm really glad that you mentioned that in the context of what we're about to talk about with the Looking Glass station. Charlie has been of course, immediately captured. Oh, just immediately immediately captured by Bonnie and Greta, two people that Ben has been lying to two of his own people that Ben has been lying. He's lying to everybody. Right? Desmond wakes up and immediately swims to the moon pool. But we have a new guest when it's not just the four of them. Mikhail he now disaffected McHale because he's also tired of being lied to. So joins them. And this little underwater drama, human drama, it said against the blinking yellow light that portends Charlie's do with the lover, I gotta say, except for the fact that it had to be Charlie, because he's the only one that could play good vibrations on on a number pad. That was cool. I thought and this is this is like the only example in pop culture that I can cite. But I really felt this watching the episode again. This is the only time I've ever seen something pay off so much. With so much anticlimactic stuff like I none of this does anything for me. It's like I don't care get to the dummies a lot. No, I loved everything Tessa 43:22 about this. Well, no, I loved it. Because again, it it really emphasized to me that Ben's Ben's leadership doesn't work because he controls and he wants it to all be about him. And he does this through lies He does it through manipulation and that ultimately cannot be sustained in the face of an outside force that you've mistreated, right? Jack on the other hand, treats his people like human beings and that's why ultimately he is a better leader. But no I loved I loved the Looking Glass stuff because the emphasize that to me. McHale is like a Mike Myers, Jason Carr. Jason from Friday the 13th level like you cannot kill this dude. He's jaw he dies at least jaw he's Jaws he died cluding the part where he's outside with the grenade. Oh my god, that was bond. That was Roger Moore bond level shenanigans. Yeah, so there's that. Also fun note. I can't remember the actresses name but one of the two women in the gorilla. Yep. Juana Perrella is from she's from Once Upon a Time later ravines Future Show Yeah, and Lady ravines future show so it was kind of nice to see a once upon a time I mean, they don't actually see meet each other in the in last but it was just kind of fun to make that connection. So story Storybrooke Yeah, story brick. Yeah. But like other Sam 44:52 show that just went right off that just all the way off the rails. Tessa 44:56 So we talked last episode about how devastating and yet Like, well written Charlie's death is so I don't necessarily want to get into all of that again. But the stuff with Charlie being tied up and like basically tortured and beaten. Dom Dominic Monaghan does. I hate to say this, because I'm going to always know him as Mary from Lord of the Rings, because that's like his big role. And that's obviously something that was important in my childhood. But he is a better actor than I thought that he was. Because of this, like this nice. He Sam 45:29 truly is everybody. Tessa 45:32 He does such a good job of conveying this because he's not side right. He's not a military person. It but he holds up under this because, one, he's telling the truth, right? And the truth is, he's there die and to to turn off the station, right? But he also just has this acceptance, right? Like the torture doesn't mean anything to him because he's just accepted his fate. And I just think that that he just he does so well with this. And then like Desmond, trying to save him the comedy of errors that leads to you know, all of them supposedly dying except for Desmond and Charlie. Like all of that it works for me. It's just did it it felt like again, like you said, more bond like, than any other part of the show. It felt like spies. Sam 46:19 Yeah, yeah. Oh, Jasmine. Tessa 46:23 Jasmine tried so hard to save Charlie yet again, even though we he was the one who told Charlie that he had to die this time, but he's still tried to save them. Sam 46:31 Desmond's a good guy, just before McHale sets off his grenade. Charlie sees Penny space on the screen. And this is great, because she has no idea who he's like, You're the girl right over there. And she's like, Oh, you're such a great scene, right? And then Jaws swims up with the grid. Tessa 46:53 I loved Charlie in this moment. First of all the good vibrations where he's humming it and like tapping it out is so great. But yeah, like, he's like, you're a penny. And she's like, who are you? And he like, does what's right over there. And it's also really sad. Not only because this is obviously leading to Charlie's death, but it's also sad that Jasmine and Penny don't actually get to see each other even on the screen. Sam 47:12 Yeah. So Charlie sees her face on the screen. And, you know, it's like, what? Where's your boat? Where's your boat? And Penny's like, I don't have a Tessa 47:26 boat. So Ben might have been right. Sam 47:29 And then all of a fan and back to era, we hear the Adrian Chase music. Yeah, right. Yeah. Tessa 47:34 I'm so glad they didn't bring that into Peacemaker. Sam 47:37 Oh, I would have loved it. So Penny provides Penny provides the second big reveal of the episode of the first big reveal. Is the flash forward. The second big reveal is that she didn't send Naomi, right. Who did? Who knows we don't. What I do know is that this moment is the moment from the series. This is the image. This is the thing that everybody remembers whether you think the end of the show is good or bad. Everybody remembers this. You are. This is the Android test Tessa Jada human, if you are not emotionally affected by not pennies, Bo, not Tessa 48:26 pennies, Bo. Yeah, the presence of mine that Charlie has in this moment while he's dying. And he knows he's going to die to write not pennies, vote on his hand and tell Desmond is just, he loves Desmond being selfless. He loves Claire, he loves the baby, like he wants everyone to survive, and he's willing to make the sacrifice. And it does feel like it feels so good in terms of this character, getting to the point where he's willing to sacrifice himself for all these people that he loves. But it also feels very tragic because Desmond told him that the only way that these people get off the island is if he dies, which is all Desmond knows at that point. But from the flash forward, it seems that may be getting off the island that way was not the best thing for everyone. And so it does feel a little tragic that perhaps he sacrificed himself for something that wasn't as hopeful as the end of this episode would make us believe. Sam 49:27 Right. And I mean, but on the other hand, there have been a lot of bad deaths. Tessa 49:31 Neuro is not bad at all. I think it's a great death. And I think that it says a lot about the character and I was very emotionally affected, but it is it does have that sense of tragedy and that sense of like, yeah, like, maybe, maybe if he had lived, you know, maybe they would have been still on the island. Maybe whatever happened to them. Sam 49:51 Well, yeah. And then in a really big, you know, twist of irony, right. We know Naomi is some sort of imposter. Yes, we don't know She is but we immediately don't think she's the good guy. But when Charlie accomplishes the mission she looks over to Claire and says your boyfriend just did that just you know saved your life got you out the out whatever was, you know, of course ironic, but so yeah, I mean this episode between Jack and Charlie does some really good things but it also sets us up for something in the future because the episode ends and of course, we've already seen what Jack has gone through so we know things are not tied up with a tiny little bow right? However Mission Accomplished end of season. Yeah, final thoughts. Tessa 50:47 This was clearly the best season of the three so far even with the pod and some of the the other stuff Sam 50:53 and that's what I told you the beginning when you were like how is this like you'll see even with Tessa 50:58 the is it strangers in a strange land? Episode? But tattoo episode? Sam 51:07 Oh, probably. I don't know. Even with Jack what what tattoo episode I have no idea what you're talking about. Tessa 51:13 Even with the jack's tattoo episode, which is the worst episode I've seen so far Sam 51:18 tattoo is that like a cover band of Jack's Mannequin? Okay, X mannequins, tattoos. And their debut album, tattoo your mannequin tattoo you? Okay, I'm done. We've Tessa 51:30 gotten off the rails. Even with that episode. This season is clearly the best, especially because of the last third of the season, which just like goes right, it just goes and like you said it pays so much off. And it gets me excited for the next season. It's good. It's good stuff. I mean, I was invested in the show before it wasn't like I disliked season one do I love those seasons, but this is we're going somewhere it's getting better. Sam 51:52 Are you ready to go to their aim ready to go to Tessa 51:54 their well? Too bad? Yeah, Sam 51:57 that's it for today. But join us next week. We won't be talking about lost because we have to go back to not the island Star Trek. Tessa 52:06 We have to go back to the enterprise pesah. Join us next week for Sam watches Star Trek Next week, we will be talking about Star Trek The Motion Picture. Sam 52:16 Not the JJ Abrams one. Tessa 52:19 I don't think it's called Star Trek The Motion Picture. Well, Sam 52:21 I'm just trying to segue out of last which is JJ Abrams. Come on with me here. Tessa 52:27 Join us next week for Sam washes Star Trek variant. What else you want me to say? Sam 52:33 I don't know. You can find me on Twitter at Sam underscore Morris nine and you can find Tessa at Swehla Tessa until next time, if you say live together die alone to me Jack I'll smack you across the face. Transcribed by https://otter.ai