Andy 0:17 Welcome to Monkey off My Backlog, the podcast where we exorcise our pop culture demons by tackling our media to-do lists one week at a time. I'm your host, "human recommendation algorithm," Andy Bowman, and with me as always are my cohosts, Tessa Swehla Tessa 0:34 Hello! Andy 0:35 and Dr. Sam Morris. Sam 0:38 Hello. Andy 0:39 This week, Sam boldly goes where he's almost never gone before. Tessa moves to a small town in Tennessee. Sam 0:47 Oh, God. Andy 0:49 And I go out for revenge. Space revenge...with a sandwich. Sam, you finally did it. How does it feel? Sam 1:00 You know, I know a lot of people have been doing this for a long time. And, you know, I never felt like I wasn't ready. For a while, I wasn't really interested. I had mixed feelings. And I just knew that if it was ever going to happen, it was going to have to happen with the right person. And you know, with Tessa, I know that I've finally found the right person. Andy 1:30 And we're talking about Star Trek, correct? Sam 1:35 Sure. Tessa is a huge Star Trek fan. I know you know this, Andy. Andy 1:41 If they're only there was a word for Star Trek fans, but we don't have one. Sam 1:45 Right. There's no no such thing. As part of a larger deal, as part of a larger development deal, I watched the first season of Star Trek: The Original Series. And to be very, very clear, we are talking about The Original Series that ran for three seasons from 1966 to 1969. It aired on NBC; however, it's owned by CBS and Paramount. That's a thing that used to happen back in the day. It's created by Gene Roddenberry, who is...like I mean, if you know Star Trek, you know all this stuff. I think it's really great that The Original Series is associated with Desi Lu productions, which is Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball. I thought this was really interesting: Wikipedia tells me that Gene Roddenberry was influenced by Horatio Hornblower, Gulliver's Travels, Forbidden Planet, and Wagon Train. This is very close to like George Lucas word salad, but a very different kind. Andy 2:44 Horatio Hornblower. [laughs]. Sam 2:46 Yeah. We're talking about this whole United Federation of Planets, and they have their Starfleet. The USS Enterprise is one of those spaceships, and it's commanded by James T. Kirk, played by the inimitable William Shatner. Leonard Nimoy is Spock. DeForest Kelley is Leonard McCoy, James Doohan as Scotty. Nichelle Nichols as Uhura, and George Takei, who...Sulu has a first name: Hikaru Sulu. We watched the first season most of the episodes. Like with the X Files, we did not watch some of the quote unquote weaker episodes. Andy 3:25 All right. Now, Sam, after doing all this and listing off the entire cast, what did you think about it? Sam 3:32 I did not, in fact, list the entire cast. Andy 3:34 You listed most of the cast. Sam 3:36 Well, we'll get to some more casting stuff here in a minute. Andy 3:39 What did you think about it? Sam 3:40 Before I tell you what I think about it, let me tell you what audiences in the '60s thought about it. When the first season ended, it was ranked number 52 out of 94 shows. And so NBC did not want to renew it, but they ultimately did. But they put it in the death slot. If you know what the death slot is. Andy 4:01 No. Sam 4:02 Go ahead. Andy 4:02 I don't know. Tell me what the death slot is. Is that an execution slot? Were they going to summarily execute it? Was Star Trek going to the gallows? Sam 4:11 It's called Friday night, Andy 4:13 Friday Night Lights? Yes. Sam 4:14 Yeah, cuz people don't watch TV on Friday nights. Back in my day. Anyway. Star Trek was not back in my day to be clear. This is really interesting because The Original Series limped along for three seasons before it gets canceled, but then the interest revives in syndication, which is how you get not only the revival of the major motion pictures, but also subsequent series being shown on syndication all the way up to the most current series, which have moved to streaming. I've been hesitant to watch Star Trek for a long time, because Andy 4:50 It's boring. Sam 4:51 Yeah, well, boring. Yeah, I probably would have said that, in my my younger years, but-- and this is such a bad take considering something that has happened over the last couple of years that I know you feel strongly about--But I'm a Star Wars fan. I grew up with Star Wars. And I'm not saying you can't like both, I mean, Tessa exists. Andy 5:09 But no, it's one or the other. Sam 5:11 Right? And, in as much as you have to pick one or the other, I was always gonna pick Star Wars. Now, this is not the first Star Trek I've ever seen. The first Star Trek I ever saw was Star Trek IV, the one with the whales. [Tessa laughs]. Because I was a child of the '80s. And they would run those like matinee series for kids at the movie theater over the summer. And so that was one of the movies I saw. I also took a course in utopian theory in grad school where the professor--same professor Tessa mentioned a few weeks ago--showed Star Trek. So I've seen a few episodes of each of the series, but never on purpose, never meaningfully. I've also seen the first two motion pictures [Kelvin timeline], saw the first season of Picard, a couple of other things. But Tessa's case always was, you know, this is utopian. It's utopian, you would like this. And yeah, the first season of Star Trek takes on a lot of issues, and Star Trek as a whole takes on a lot of issues. It's not a serialized show. You don't have to watch it week to week you can dip in, dip out. It's pretty cool. I mean, there's a lot to recommend the show. Some episodes are better than others. Andy 6:23 Some episodes are better than others. Okay, well, I want to know more about that. But first, I want to tell you that Star Trek is boring, and all episodes are equally boring. But what are the standout episodes from your point of view of the first season? Sam 6:37 Before we talk about the standout episodes, I want to watch Tessa explode from not talking. I just want to say that one of the really interesting things about the first season is there are dueling pilots. There are two pilot episodes, which is fascinating. There is a pilot episode called The Cage that does not feature the Shatner. There is the actual aired second pilot episode called Where No Man Has Gone Before. But hold on. The Cage is repurposed as part of a two parter later in the first season called The Menagerie where they use the footage from the pilot as evidence in a trial. And it's it is brilliant and stupid at the same time. And I think there's no better way to describe Star Trek, a series that takes on ethical conundrums, imperialism, class structure, economy, human rights, feminism, technology, the war--and by the war, I mean the Vietnam War--and so many other things. But it's also so stupid at the same time. Now, Tessa, I have a game for you. I have prepared the six standout episodes of the first season. How many of them can you guess? We watched almost all of the first season. Count them up, six episodes, go. Tessa 8:20 Well, definitely The Menagerie, because I know you really liked the way that they repurpose the footage. So that's number one. These are not in any particular order. These are just as I think of them. Andy 8:30 Wait, now does does The Menagerie count as one or two because... Sam 8:33 Yeah, we will say for the purposes of this conversation that they count as one. Tessa 8:38 Okay. Menagerie parts one and two. Let's see. Andy 8:40 Okay, I'm gonna make a guess at one. Just one. Tessa 8:44 What's your guess, Andy? Andy 8:45 City on the Edge of Forever. Tessa 8:46 Yeah, that is a pretty classic one. And Sam does really appreciate time travel. So I think that is a fairly good guess. We'll put that one at slot number two: City on the Edge of Forever. Devil in the dark, I think. Andy 9:00 oh, probably Arena. Tessa 9:02 No, I don't think that one was on Sam's list. I don't think Sam appreciated Arena as much as the average Trek fan. But Return of the Archons. No, not Return of the Archons, Errand of Mercy. I believe Sam really liked Errand of Mercy. So that's four, right: Menagerie, City on the Edge of Forever, Errand of Mercy, Devil in the Dark. So I need two more. The Gallileo Seven. The Naked Time. [laughter]. Andy 9:30 This is interesting because I am sure that there's one person one listener who's screaming at their Zune right now. Sam 9:37 Okay, wait, hold on. So... Andy 9:38 No, I'm just saying was some person's already screamed out six episodes that are their favorite, that are the canonically favorite six episodes. Tessa 9:46 Now tell me if I was right. Sam 9:48 You were not. Oh, all right. And that's it. Next question. I believe these are actually in aired order, but they're not in any particular order. Mudd's Women, which is the introduction of the--I'll call him space pirate--Harcourt Fenton Mudd, ne'er-do-well peddling the Venus drug. The next, we have the Conscience of the King, which is the introduction of Kodos, the executioner, a Simpsons reference I didn't know. That was neat. What if an interplanetary interdimensional warlord was posing as an actor? By the way, this is the last episode of the original series that features Grace Lee Whitney, did you know that? Tessa 10:42 I did not know that. Sam 10:43 I know things Tessa does it about Star Trek. Tessa 10:45 I did not watch these in order when I was a child. Sam 10:47 We have the Gallileo Seven, you're correct about that. It is: what if Star Trek did the trolley problem? So that's cool. We have the Alternative Factor, a parallel universe, people. What if all of the matter that we cannot quantify or qualify--we used to try to say it was dark matter; it's resurfaced in the news--what if all of that was actually a minus universe to our positive universe? It's neat. And then of course, the other two episodes are Tomorrow is Yesterday and the City on the Edge of Forever. They are both time travel conundrum episodes. They are single timeline time travel, like your Back to the Future or Terminator setup; they are not quantum. The Alternative Factor is more quantum in some ways, but not really. But these episodes both have that ethical idea of what do you do if you have the opportunity to change the past? And as any time travel aficionado will tell you, you cannot do it. You cannot do it for one of two reasons. One, you are ethically bound to not do it. Two, if you do do it, the universe will cease to exist. And we know it hasn't happened because we're still here. So either way, it kind of depends on how you feel. Those are my six favorite episodes. Some of them are more gimmicky than others. But like I said, most of them deal with those kind of ethical issues. They deal with it very silly ways. But you know, they deal with it better than Star Wars. Andy 12:27 Do they? So just tell me this. Overall, do you think that people should take the leap? Sam 12:32 I do, the non-Quantum Leap. Tessa 12:37 Thanks for ruining the franchise, Bacula. Sam 12:40 So yeah, as I said before, my initial reluctance was Star Wars related in many ways. Of course, now that's not a good reason to turn your nose up at literally anything. Well, I mean, like I said, it felt like it was time, and I am more interested in watching. I don't think that I have it in me to watch to be a completionist. To watch 30 more seasons of television. Tessa tells me that the amount of episodes we will watch in her guided run through the series for seasons two and three is about equal to what we did for season one. So that'll be fine. We've watched Picard. I'm already on board with those characters. So We'll do Next Generation. We'll work our way through over time. I'm excited to watch Discovery. I'm excited to watch Below Decks. You know, I'm glad to be on board with this. And I think that more people should do that. It is very different from Star Wars. I still like the swashbuckling action adventure, when done right. But there's enough room in the galaxy for both of these. Before we move on. Tessa, what have I missed? Tessa 14:01 I mean, Kirk and Spock clearly love each other. But otherwise, you did a really good job. It is worth watching. It was very fun watching this in chronological order because I never have watched them in the order in which they aired before. So that was really interesting. I also really enjoyed Sam's added sound effect of every time Shatner would fight someone he would just yell, "karate chop!" And that was that was really fun. Sam 14:27 And also over the last year, Tessa talked about this on Twitter the other day. We've been watching Batman '66 as well. And we discovered not only do they share a chronological overlap, they share some other overlaps too in terms of style, acting, lots of other stuff. Tessa 14:46 Yeah, they were in direct competition with each other. They aired around the same time and there are definitely some actor crossovers. If you're a fan of Batman '66, you'll recognize actors like Frank Gorshin who plays the Riddler in Batman. He plays a character in a very famous episode of trek that we have not gotten to yet. Yvonne Craig, Batgirl, is also in a very famous episode of Trek, as well as several other actors as well. So I mean, I definitely think this was an era of very silly television. Depending on how you feel about Star Trek, it either gets less silly or more silly as the case goes on, as you get to subsequent shows. But I think it is worth watching just because there's so much impact of the shows from the '60s on the future of sci fi, on the future on of television. Andy 15:36 Cool, cool. Okay, let's get to this week's discussion question. And not about boring Star Trek, which again I might remind people, is boring. And our correction department or complaint department is @portlyislandboy on Twitter. Alright, guys, the discussion question this week is kind of based on a piece of media that I, as a young man, took the wrong lesson from. Right, the lesson that wasn't the authorial intent. And I want to talk to people about media that you get the wrong lesson from, okay. This is kind of like your people who watch Breaking Bad and think that it is a show about how cool and awesome Walter White is. Tessa 16:23 I'm gonna let Sam go first, because Sam has definite opinions about this issue. Sam 16:27 I just talked. Tessa 16:29 No, you do. What do you call them? Sam 16:30 No, no, I want to get to that. But I want Andy to talk about his thing first. Andy 16:34 I do have a little game here. Okay, a little game to see if people can guess what my terrible teenage takeaways were. And I want to be very, very, very, very clear here. These were genuine lessons that I internalized on some point while reading classical novels that I realized were not the right takeaways later, and the game is: I'm going to say the novel and the lesson from it. Sam 17:11 See, I thought you were gonna tell us the lesson and see if we could guess the novel. Andy 17:14 Oh, yes. You know what? You know what? Fine, fine. We will do that. We will do that. Okay. Tessa 17:19 What are you going to call it? Is it "Andy's Takeaways?" Sam 17:24 No, no, no, it's "Andy's Misconceived Preconceptions!" Andy 17:27 See, see, but these aren't misconceived. These are wrong takeaways after having read the book. Okay, okay. These are "Terrible Teenage Takeaways." Sam 17:39 On this episode of "Andy's Terrible Takeaways: The Game," Andy 17:44 [Reading] "Getting away from everything won't solve any problems. But doing so and realizing how much better you are than everyone else might be a good start." Tessa 17:52 A Brave New World. Sam 17:54 I have got this one. Okay. It is the classic poem Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through by Meatloaf from the Bat of Hell II album. Quote: "you can't run away forever. But there's nothing wrong with getting a good headstart." Tessa 18:14 What kind of high school did you go to? Andy 18:20 The Rocky Horror Picture High School? This was... Sam 18:26 True story. I saw the Rocky Horror Picture Show for the first time at my high school. Andy 18:31 This was Catcher in the Rye. Tessa 18:33 Okay. All right. I could see how you could come away from that with that thought if you weren't given a lot of guidance. Andy 18:42 [Reading] "Don't fight against totalitarian governments. You won't win." Tessa 18:46 Animal Farm? Andy 18:48 No. Sam 18:50 I mean, this one's too easy. It is the Beastie Boys. You've Got to Fight for Your Right to Party. Andy 19:00 Sam is correct. It is the classical George Orwell written Beastie Boys. It's 1984, of course, of course. Tessa 19:09 Alright, now I'm starting to think that Sam hates musicals because he in fact, grew up in a High School musical. Andy 19:15 [Reading] "Being prideful is hella attractive." Tessa 19:18 Pride and Prejudice, baby. Sam 19:22 See, I know what you're thinking. You think I'm gonna say Pride In the Name of Love by U2. But I'm not. The answer is Proud Mary, but I'm trying to figure out if it's the Creedence Clearwater Revival version, or the Ike and Tina Turner version. Andy 19:37 [Reading] "Don't just pretend to be a sad sack; really commit to it. Then women and people will find you interesting." Tessa 19:44 Women and people? [Sam laughs]. Andy 19:52 Oh, man. Okay. Okay, so so I was gonna say [Sam laughs] how women will find you attractive and people will find you interesting. But... Tessa 20:02 The first thing that popped in my head is definitely not something you would have read in high school. Let me think. Andy 20:08 So remember this is "don't just pretend to be a sad sack; really commit to it. And women will find you attractive and people will find you interesting." Tessa 20:16 I don't know, I didn't have a usual high school upbringing. Andy 20:19 This is one... Tessa 20:21 Jude the Obscure! I don't know. Andy 20:23 Okay. Okay. You know what, you're English majors. This would have been required reading for you at some point in your life. Sam 20:29 Jude the Obscure is actually a pretty good guess. But here's the thing. In my heart of hearts, I know what the answer is. I've second guessed myself, I'm thinking, well, maybe it's Popular by Nada Surf. But I'm gonna have to go with my gut. It's every ska song ever. Andy 20:47 It's a Tale of Two Cities. [Laughter]. Sam 20:52 Okay, nobody reads that anymore. Tessa 20:55 I feel like instead of reading those books, you should read the books that I have suggested because they would have fit into your misconceived preconceptions from the beginning. Andy 21:04 Okay, we've got four more genuine takeaways that I internalized as a teenager. Sam 21:12 Bring it on! Andy 21:13 [Reading] "You can be justified for pursuing revenge. As long as you're cool enough to pay it back." Tessa 21:20 I would say Moby Dick, but Captain Ahab isn't cool. Sam 21:24 This one, of course, is from the bad, Taylor Swift. Better than Revenge. Andy 21:32 This was the Count of Monte Cristo. Tessa 21:35 Ah, okay, that one makes way more sense than Moby Dick because the Count is hella cool. Andy 21:40 [Reading] "You can make anyone do whatever you want. If you're smarter and funnier than they are, and you're not a sociopath for doing it. You're awesome." Tessa 21:48 The Great Gatsby. Andy 21:50 No. Sam 21:51 I've got this one. It's Tom Sawyer. By Rush. Andy 21:56 It's The Prince by Machiavelli. Sam 21:58 I really was hoping it was actually Tom Sawyer. Tessa 22:01 Do people actually read The Prince in high school still? Andy 22:05 I mean, I did. Sam 22:06 Well, I mean at the school where I saw Rocky Horror Picture Show for the first time we did. We also read the Communist Manifesto. What! Tessa 22:14 Man, you were really educated to be a liberal, weren't you? Andy 22:17 Tessa is going to get this one. I'm fairly certain. [Reading] "There's always an obvious solution. Just present it with a straight face, and then say it's a joke. Unless..." Tessa 22:27 I feel like if I'm wrong, you're gonna judge me for saying this, but A Modest Proposal. Sam 22:33 That's a good guess, Tessa? But I believe that he is talking about a poem that begins "Hey, if we can solve any problem," which is the song Every Time You Go Away, originally by Hall and Oats, but popularized by Paul Young. Andy 22:55 Tessa, you're corrected it was A Modest Proposal. [Sam laughs]. Tessa 23:00 I've only gotten two so far. Andy 23:01 Yeah, you've only gotten two, and this one is going to be really funny, but [Reading] "I don't see what everyone so so shocked about this place. Sounds pretty cool to me." Tessa 23:13 Dante's Inferno? Sam 23:19 So you are referring to the Eagles reunion show turned into album, Hell Freezes Over? Andy 23:25 I am referring to Tessa's first guess, Brave New World. Tessa 23:28 See it all comes back to Brave New World. I should have just guessed that one for every single one. Andy 23:32 Yeah, you would have gotten at least one right. Tessa 23:34 Yeah. [Laughs]. Andy 23:35 You would have done worse than you actually did. Tessa 23:37 Yeah, I got two out of however many. I'm doing terrible at guessing today. Andy 23:42 As you can tell, I was a normal teenage boy and took some bad takeaways from classical literature because hey, you know, when you're reading like the Count of Monte Cristo or The Prince that just sounds awesome. Tessa 23:54 I don't think you actually understand like how satire works. Andy 23:58 I mean, I do now. Tessa 24:00 Oh, yeah, I meant like when you were a teenager. I don't think you understood. Andy 24:03 Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, I understood the Modest Proposal was a joke. But I always also thought like that Swift was actually saying like, "yeah, haha, isn't this funny? Right. I was just joking. Unless...." Anyway, congratulations on doing better than Sam. While somehow not playing the same game. Congratulations to Sam for keeping that up. But yeah, so I just wanted to talk about media that people take the wrong lessons from. Sam 24:39 Are you ready? Andy 24:40 I'm ready. Okay. Sam 24:43 As you might have caught on to by now, I spent my youth listening to pop music. And as you know, I have been waiting to write this for a long time, and I will one day, but it's called "Lies Pop Culture Taught Me" and it is almost singularly about pop music, which is the biggest....I mean, like pop music should be regulated as a class one drug for the destructive power it has on youth. I am here to tell you that stuff shouldn't be listened to without a license. You need to take coursework to understand. Because if you take it too seriously, you can learn things like love is the greatest thing ever. If she doesn't love you, just keep asking, stalking is cool. If she doesn't like you now, later, she will, after X amount of losers who will all treat her badly. And if you ever end up with her, but you lose her, it's your fault. And you have to make up for it. Unless it's her fault. And one day, she will realize, and she'll come back to you, but don't just leave it to chance. You've got to work. You got to get down on bended knee, you got to ask. And always, always, always, no matter how creepy it sounds, you say, I will always love you. You know, it's not just pop music, I mean, but you know, you can listen to the Beatles and have your mind completely warped about expectations about relationships, and, and what love is. And you know, this is not an apology for any white dude who has ever lived. Please do not take that from this. However, you know, I know that growing up, I had several, several really bad ideas of what all of this stuff meant because of pop music. Nick Hornby really caught on to it in High Fidelity talking about that. We've heard a lot of talk about it now. But for all of Tipper Gore's talk about Parent Advisory stickers...How I Met Your Mother has a really great term for it because it's not just music, it's also film and TV and stuff. John Cusack has basically made his career off of that "hangdog dude who nobody understands who might be able to get the girl." He plays the character from High Fidelity in the movie, but before that, you know, he played the dude that "if you just learned to ski and outdo the guy at the ski lodge, everything would be great." Andy 27:35 Better Off Dead. Sam 27:37 Right. And he also played Lloyd Dobler from Better off Dead, the dude with the boombox, and so How I Met Your Mother calls it the Dobler/Dahmer Effect. Which is all of these romantic gestures that you learn from listening to pop music and other things pop culture--depending on how they are received--come across as romantic like Lloyd Dobler or not like Jeffrey Dahmer. Andy 28:01 Better Off Dead, that is not the movie with the boombox. Sam 28:04 That one is Say Anything. There's a lot of not good stuff. John Hughes movies are the same thing. But let's not talk about some bad representation in those movies outside of what we're talking about right now. Andy 28:16 Tessa, do you have anything to say about mis-takes? Haha, I just can't [laughter]. Oh, wait, that's already a word. Tessa 28:24 I mean, I think that there's a lot of...and this is a little different from what you were saying as far as like, Count of Monte Cristo isn't necessarily trying to tell you that revenge is good. It's just that it seems cool, because the Count is really cool. But what we're talking about is more like things that are represented in pop culture that you could, if you thought that relationships were like that, you could actually take away the wrong lesson. And I think movies and soaps, especially like I'm thinking of actually John Hughes films, Reality Bites, which we watched last year, One Tree Hill, like all of these things that I really--I mean, I didn't watch Reality Bites until more recently--but 10 Things I Hate About You is the same way. It's a great film, I love that film. But if you are a teenager watching that film, what you are going to think is, "Oh, I actually don't need any emotional boundaries with the boys in my life. And the person who I should be with is the one that treats me bad but says he's sorry, at the end." And I think that that's a lesson that we teach girls a lot from a young age. And we teach boys that a lot too. And I know that I have really struggled in my adult life to find appropriate boundaries with people I've been in romantic relationships with and to know, you know, when they're treating me badly or when, you know, it's okay to walk away. And I think that not only do we teach girls that that's exciting and cool and that that's just the way that love is but we also teach boys that that's the way that girls want to be pursued. And I've actually heard a lot of boys use that against girls before, and say, you know, "oh, well, they only like, you know, the bad kids and girls should just, you know, like me because I'm a good person" and you know, like, the whole friendzone argument. And which, by the way, is another lie that pop culture has told us, the friendzone. So yeah, I think that there are a lot of really dangerous ideas out there about boundaries and relationships and how people should treat each other. And that's definitely something I've had to unlearn a lot in my 20s. Sam 30:33 In conclusion, Lara Jean, focus on yourself. I don't care if he looks like Noah Centineo because that's who plays him in the movie. I don't care. Focus on yourself. Speaking of focusing on yourself, Tessa. Tessa 30:51 [Laughing] I don't really understand that transition, but I want to see where it goes. Sam 30:53 Hold on, I got it. What did you focus on this week? [Laughter]. Tessa 30:59 I read the 2016 YA novel If I Was Your Girl by Meredith Russo. Sam 31:05 This book, of course, is not meant to be confused with If I Was Your Girlfriend by Prince, not Machiavelli, author of The Prince, but Minnesota's own Prince. Okay, so other than to annoy Andy, whose favorite thing is when we talk about books on the podcast, because it's a judgment free podcast after all, why was this book on your list? Tessa 31:30 Just wait until one of us reads a book about anime. Sam 31:33 Challenge accepted. Tessa 31:36 So this book has been on my list for a while. You taught this book in your Young Adult class two years ago, is that correct? Yeah, two years ago, so it's been on my list since then. And with all of the anti-trans legislation that seems to be sweeping through the nation recently, I decided it was a really good time to celebrate books about trans kids, trans youth, and that are written by trans authors. Meredith Russo is a trans woman. So I wanted to promote that here on this platform. Sam 32:10 Tell everybody what the book's about. Tessa 32:13 Teenage girl Amanda Hardy, who moves from Atlanta to Tennessee to get a fresh start. She is for most of the book determined just to get through school, to survive school, to graduate, and to move out of the South because she has been discriminated against quite a bit in the South because she is a trans woman. But because of all of this transphobic bullying and violence in her past, she decides that when she moves to this little town, Lambertsville, that she is going to remain stealth, which means that she is going to try as much as possible to pass as a cis woman. However, when she meets the handsome and smart Grant, who is very, like, stereotypical, YA know, as that Noah Centineo-style love interest and a bevy of girls who think that she is pretty cool and they want to be friends with her, she can't resist trying to live her life and not just survive it. So a lot of this book is actually sort of her remaining stealth and trying to figure out if she needs to tell people or if she should tell people, or if she even owes people any kind of explanation for her existence. This book also does a really good job of jumping back and forth from like the present day where she's dealing with all of these problems and three years in the past where it talks about her transitioning and sort of the impetus for her transition. Sam 33:35 I feel like if you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you know that Tessa and I often conflate actors with the characters they play, and I'm sure that Noah Centineo is a just a wonderful person, and we shouldn't be holding him up as you know, girl, you can do better, but, you know...anyway. Tessa 33:53 Be careful about insulting the internet's boyfriend. We're gonna get angry letters from the internet. Sam 33:58 At this point. I'm like, 75% sure that when we mentioned somebody on this podcast, something bad happens to them. Like we're, we're not Monkey off My Backlog. We're Monkeys Paw off my Backlog? I don't know. Tessa 34:14 It's actually just the same. Sam 34:16 Oh, ok. I know you have mixed feelings. Tell us about them. Tessa 34:20 So let me start with what I really liked about this book. So this is what I would call, and correct me if I'm wrong our YA our resident expert here, this is definitely what I would call a YA problem book. Does that seem like an accurate description? Sam 34:38 Well, I'm okay with being the YA expert because we can't all be human recommendation algorithms or the runner-up for People's Sexiest Man Alive. Which I think is made up. I don't think that's a real thing. Andy 34:52 I have won the runner-up for People's Sexiest Man Alive. Okay. Nobody... Sam 34:56 which Peoples? Which peoples? [laughter]. Andy 34:59 Nobody. Don't pick this apart for me, Sam. [laughter]. Tessa 35:04 Sam, could you explain what a YA problem book is to our audience? Sam 35:08 Yes, there are a few common classifiers within Young Adult lit because it's not a genre. It's a book selling marketing category. But within that, we've come up with a few common categories. You know, you've got all your typical genre stuff: your sci-fi, your mystery, your fantasy, your supernatural stuff. And then you have your more, quote unquote, realistic stuff, stuff that could happen today. And then within that, you can also talk about the fact that most of these realistic books are romances, or they're more social problem based. And it's not to say you can't have all those things happening at once. But while this has some rom-com aspects that you've already mentioned, it's more of a book that is about a problem. Tessa 36:08 Yes. And actually, I think that the problem part of this works pretty well. I mean, I think that this is very effective. You really care about Amanda as a character. I think she's a great character. I really like her friends, the girls that she becomes friends with, they're very diverse. One of them is like, very religious, very like traditionally Southern Baptist, I think. And so she has like a lot of like the religious qualities to that, but we get to see sort of into her life and how misogyny affects her specifically. We get to see, you know, these other characters, some of which are from like, lower income...that all works really well to sort of present us with Amanda as a character who is very likable, who seems very realistic as a teenage character, and who we can relate to. There's a lot of things about Amanda that seem very, very relatable. I think this book works also very well, especially in the current climate, to argue for why medical intervention for trans youth is incredibly important. This book talks a lot about sort of the stakes of not having access to medical care for trans youth. And it does a really great job of arguing how Amanda's life is better because she has access to that medical care. And I think that that if you are someone who is really struggling with trying to understand why these anti-trans bills about youth are so important, why, for example, puberty blockers are so important, HRT is important, if you want to know more about that medical aspect of being trans, this is a really, really good book to sort of get you started on that. The other thing that I really, really liked, is the fact that Amanda does a really great job...we see almost everything from her perspective. It is a first person narrative. She does a really good job of talking about transmisogyny, the idea that, as someone who previously at least passed as a boy, and is now passing, for the most part, as a teenage girl, she's suddenly aware of the way in which the male gaze is almost constantly focused on women, the idea of you know, that women live essentially different social lives, they are scrutinized in different ways, they're subject to a different kind of prejudice, a different kind of bias. But also added to that is sort of this intersectional layer of she constantly feels fear that she's not going to pass, that someone is going to recognize her. In fact, someone does recognize her in a flashback and something very violent happens as the result of that. And, you know, so there's that intersection of mysogyny and sort of that straight cis, you know, gaze that that accompanies that. And I think this book does a great job of showing how both of those things exist in the same space, in the same character. It's not one or the other, it's both at the same time, and they intersect, and they layer on each other in different ways. So from that perspective, I think this book is very successful. Sam 39:17 Mixed feelings, though. You like some stuff, but I know you didn't like some stuff. Go ahead. Tessa 39:24 So I want to make it really clear that my problems with this novel, for the most part, have nothing to do with the author or really with the book itself. It mainly has to do with the way that this has been marketed especially by publishing companies and to educators. I think specifically...and this goes back to what you were saying earlier, Sam about how young adult lead is primarily like a publishing category. Like it's kind of...things are classified as Young Adult let in order to sell them to a certain readership and to a certain market. The way that this book has been catagorized is Amanda just wants to be a normal teenage girl. And there's this problem that's holding her back from it. And while we do get that in the book--she does want to be a normal teenage girl--the idea that there is sort of this normal teenage girl to which you can aspire to is an incredibly white, classist, ableist concept, right? Like this idea that there's one teenage experience, and it looks like this. And if we only allowed trans youth to have access to that experience, then they would be fine, right. And this book is incredibly white. There are as far as I can remember, no characters of color in it, which kind of makes sense because they live in a small town in Tennessee. And I know that there are a lot of small towns in Tennessee that are incredibly white. So I understand that. And I will also say Meredith Russo does a really good job in her afterword...she has like a note to the reader that points out like this is by no means, you know, a monolithic trans experience. Not all trans people are like this, not all trans people experience transition the same way. Some people don't transition until later in life; people can't afford or are denied access to medical care that that Amanda has access to. So I don't think the problem is necessarily with her. But the way that this is often presented in both publishing, marketing, and by educators is read this book about a trans girl, now you know about trans teenagehood, which I think can be incredibly flattening and monolithic. My only other real concern with this book, and this does sort of have to do with the author is that I don't like the bi character in this book. There is a bi character, and unfortunately, I think she falls into a lot of stereotypes about being bi. Her bi-ness seems to be a byproduct, excuse the pun...seems to be the result of some trauma. And it's heavily linked to trauma in the book in a way that seems very stereotypical. I can't talk about it much more than that without spoiling parts of the book. Can we just have bi people who are happy, like that are just bi because they're bi and not because they were traumatized? And who aren't, you know, sleeping around with people just because they're bi. Like that, that's my only note on this. And I don't know if that was on purpose or not. That's just the only part that made me feel a little squiggly. Sam 42:22 Squiggly, huh? So I'm reading a book right now called Hani and Ishu's Guide to Fake Dating which deals with that issue of bisexuality head on in a problematic way. But maybe with some more rom com tendencies. We are seeing things by authors like Becky Albertalli that she is starting to remove the issues of sexuality from a problematic aspect and just talking about them in a generally rom-com way. I do know that when my class read this book, it was probably the first interaction that most of them had with any trans issues. And so I feel like it was a very positive thing for them. I feel like they took good things away from it. They certainly enjoyed it. And I was really worried that they wouldn't. You know, so, so issues aside, and we rarely have perfect pop culture. But issues aside, the book did the best thing that it can possibly do. So having said that, would you recommend it? Tessa 43:28 Yeah, I actually really would. I mean, I think this book does what the author intended it to do, which is to provide an entry point to talking about trans issues, specifically with cis readers. This reads like it was written for cis readers, which is perfectly fine. I think that that's what this book is meant to do. I think it does it very well. The reason why I have mixed feelings about it more has to do with...I wish there were more books that showed more diverse trans people, right? Like, I wish that marketers didn't just pick up one book and say, "See, we did it, we did the trans thing," and then not have diverse experiences within that world. So I guess my mixed feelings are more with the publishing than it is with the book in itself. But yeah, I would recommend this, especially to anybody who you know wants to learn more about your trans experiences and to engage with it through the lens of Young Adult lit. Sam 44:22 And from my end too, I just want to say thank you to Meredith Russo for publishing this book, which will, I think enable encourage other authors to write, they have written, they are writing, they will write about trans issues, trans storylines, trans boys, trans girls, nonbinary adolescence, and that will begin to have that normalizing effect within Young Adult literature. And I think that's going to have a very net positive result, as the years go by, not too long into the future. So, you know, Russo played a big part in that. I think that's great. Tessa 45:04 I just remembered something too. This has nothing to do with what we were just talking about. But on Good Reads when I was looking up some information about this book for my notes, there was a review that said like...that objected to the title of this book by saying, "It should say, If I Were Your Girl." Like that it was grammatically incorrect to say If I Was Your Girl, and I just want to say to that Goodreads reader, "check your check your verb-noun agreement." Sam 45:27 And if you don't believe us, check with Prince. Tessa 45:31 Andy. [Sighs]. You did an anime again? Andy 45:37 Yes. Tessa 45:38 What's this one about? Andy 45:40 That's correct. This is one called Gankutsuou. Or maybe I should call it by its full name that English people will recognize and be able to find it and stream it. It's called Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo. And this [Tessa makes sound of acknowledgement] is a space opera version of the Count of Monte Cristo. Tessa 45:59 That's why you wanted to talk about it earlier. All right. All right. Sam 46:04 So wait, are you saying this is a space version of a ham and cheese sandwich? Andy 46:10 That is correct. That is correct. Tessa 46:14 Wait, so does he tunnel out of a space prison? Andy 46:18 So that's one of the interesting things about this adaptation. As soon as I started the first episode...really about two seconds before, I mentioned to my wife, I said, "you know, it would be really cool if they did a version of The Count of Monte Cristo that takes place from the point of view of the innocent people's lives that he ruins." And then this started, and the main character is not the Count. The main character is Albert or Albert [pronounced with a silent t], depending on if you're going with the French pronunciation. Or if you're a an English Neanderthal, like me, and you just pronounce it as it's spelt. So Albert is on the moon at the beginning, doing a big space festival...like this feels very much almost like...what the name of that Disney movie, the Disney animated movie where there's the celebration, Hunchback of Notre Dome. Like, you know, a Mardi Gras style festival is happening... Tessa 47:24 Festival of Fools. Andy 47:26 Yeah, yeah, he's there. He's a young aristocrat. He meets a mysterious man who looks like a vampire and dresses like a vampire. And probably talks like a vampire too. Like I really can't imagine anything else. Apparently, this voice actor has voiced a lot of animated vampires. Tessa 47:47 Animated vampires, that would be a great album title. Andy 47:51 Yeah, yeah. But he reveals that he is the Count of Monte Cristo. And from there, it does a really good job of adapting the story beats of the Count of Monte Cristo. But again, Albert is the main point of view character. And what's interesting about this show is that it was originally supposed to be an adaptation of a book called The Stars My Destination, which is also known as Tiger! Tiger! It's a sci-fi by Alfred Bester, who is a British sci-fi writer in the '50s. Anyway, they couldn't get the rights to it, even though they already come up with some of the designs and they just decided to you know what, we're just going to make this about space revenge and just adapt the Count of Monte Cristo. Sam 48:42 Okay, okay. But wait. So what you're saying is, this is a Japanese retelling of the Count of Monte Cristo from the innocent bystanders' perspective. Are you sure it's not called Shin Count of Monte Cristo? Andy 49:01 No. But could be called that. Tessa 49:06 Alternate title. [Sam laughs at his own joke]. So wait, it's a Japanese anime that's an adaptation of a French novel with a setting inspired by British sci-fi? Andy 49:18 Yes, that is correct. Tessa 49:21 The BLACKPINK of Japanese anime is what I'm hearing. Andy 49:26 Yes, yes, it is the BLACKPINK of Japanese anime. Sam 49:30 The Count of Monte Cristo is in your area. Andy 49:33 This visually does not really look like an anime as you might think it looks, you know, when you imagine an anime. This is very...it's such a weird thing where all the clothes and stuff, the decadence of the Count and of the French nobility comes across in their clothing, which is just basically this incredibly detailed and ornate paper as they move around. It's just beautiful and glorious. And another interesting part of this though is when the Count's not there, the shapes and textures are a little bit more subdued. So you really understand why Albert falls for the Count in such a way where he just becomes obsessed with this "guy is so cool." And when he's in the room, the lighting, everything is just different, and you believe him. And there's this feeling of just naivete from him. And it's just amazing. For those of you who don't know, the Count of Monte Cristo is about a guy who gets imprisoned for the wrong reasons. And he's framed for something. He goes back under an alias, and slowly gets revenge on the people who wronged him. And this is just wonderful. And this space setting is really bizarre and weird. It's bizarre and weird in ways where there's some aliens there, but also, they don't have phones. Right? So some of these problems that happen could be solved if someone had a phone to call someone else. But they don't. But they also have the internet. But they don't have phones. Sam 51:18 I'm looking forward, based on what you told me, in about 20 years. I'm looking forward to the remake of The Shawshank Redemption in space, in which there is a joke midway through the movie about Gankutsuou. Andy 51:39 Yeah, yeah, exactly. They... Tessa 51:42 Are we sure that he's not a vampire? Because everything you've told me sounds like they are also adapting Dracula and Renfield. Andy 51:48 I'm not kidding when I say he looks like a vampire. But he has blue skin. He even has pointy teeth. If you Google Image Gankutsuou or you just type in "Japanese Count of Monte Cristo," you will see how wonderfully ornate the show is but also how...yeah, he's totally a vampire. And they even like bring up like that, that some people think he's a vampire alien from space. And that's part of the thing, right? Because it's set in space. He's not a guy from a far off country. He's a guy from the far off reaches of space. Tessa 52:31 He kind of actually looks like Dracula from Castlevania. Andy 52:35 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's seriously like, just a wonderful, wonderful show. It does such a good job at adapting the Count of Monte Cristo. There are some some yikes moments, of course. But I think that's more of a thing with the original source material. But yeah, yeah. It's really cool. If you can find it. I know it was on Netflix for a while. It's not on there now. But the Count of Monte Cristo. It's a space opera Count of Monte Cristo and it's really cool. I love the Count of Monte Cristo stuff so I think I really need to watch Revenge. Revenge! Sam 53:19 Wait, are you talking about the ABC TV shows starring Emily Vancamp? Or are you just going to be like, Batman figure in the night watching people take revenge on others? Andy 53:33 How is that a Batman figure? Sam 53:35 Like it's like if Batman was a voyeur [laughter]: "Batman, but he only watches." Tessa 53:44 You can't prove that Batman isn't a voyeur. He just doesn't you know, do sex crimes. Sam 53:50 That you know of. Andy 53:52 Womp, womp, womp. [Laughter]. Andy 53:58 Oh, all right. So next week, Tessa watches her first Kevin Smith movie, Clerks. It's Kevin Smith's first Kevin Smith movie too. Where can you find us, people? Tessa, you go first. Tessa 54:15 You could find me on Twitter and Letterboxd @SwehlaTessa. Andy 54:22 Dr. Sam, where can people find you? Sam 54:24 You can potentially...I mean if you've seen the looks that Tessa has thrown me during this episode, I may not be around much longer, but you may perhaps find me on Twitter @sam_morris9 and on Letterboxd @ArchieLeach9. Andy 54:41 All right, you can find me on Twitter @andynoted. You can find us on Twitter @monkeybacklog. You can email us at monkeyoffmybacklog@gmail.com. Let us know your thoughts about what we talked about today. Anything you'd like us to talk about in the future episodes or anything else pop culture related? Our theme song Hot Shot by Scott Holmes can be found on ScottHolmesmusic.com. Please rate, review, and support on iTunes and Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Get that monkey off your back...log. Transcribed by https://otter.ai