Eva  0:00  
Hello and thank you for listening to the mathematics teacher educator journal podcast. The mathematics teacher educator journal is co sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators, and the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. My name is Eva Anheuser. And today I'm talking with Troy Bell, Michael locusts, dill Newton and Craig Wiley will be discussing the article exploring power and oppression in examination of mathematics teacher educators professional growth, published in the June 2021, issue of the mathematics teacher educator journal, we will begin by summarizing the main points of the article and discuss in more depth the lessons they shared in the article, their successes and challenges, and how these lessons relate to the other work. Troy, Michael, Jill and correct. Thank you for joining me today.

Michael  0:53  
Thank you for having us.

Eva  0:54  
All right, let's jump in. I know, Michael, you're gonna start us off with giving us a brief summary of the article including the results.

Michael  1:03  
Yeah, absolutely. So this actually stemmed out of a conversation that Trey and I were having, we were office mates in our first semester as graduate students. So we knew that in kind of reflecting on our experiences, we knew that we wanted to engage in research that supported our philosophies and teaching philosophies centered on equity, and in my circumstance, mathematics education for Troy curriculum studies. But we also knew that there were no formal opportunities for us to unpack and explore these connections between power oppression in mathematical spaces. And this turns out that it's not, it's not unique to our experience. This is a common trend across mathematics, teacher education, development. And we know that this kind of varies across institutions, and what opportunities and coursework they're able to kind of engage in. So we looked at this as an opportunity to form a critical reading group. So the four of us on the call performing critical reading group to inform our understandings of systemic oppression in power. And then we want to see how those connections came in play came into play in Mathematics and Mathematical spaces. So in our paper, we outline our development of the reading group, as well as the themes from our discussions and reflections from the 16 week course that we developed. And then we found that we could more readily make connections as a result of this engagement and through our discussions and readings of three germinal texts. And then we can more readily make connections between these larger contexts of colonization, violence and oppression, and how they related to power power and marginal marginalization in mathematics education specifically.

Eva  2:23  
So let me follow up. Because you said there was no formal opportunities. What do you mean by that,

Michael  2:29  
we found that there were like opportunities for engaging in this is actually interesting. I'm thinking of Troy. And if you want to chime in, feel free, but I'm thinking of kind of not having the opportunities to engage in these critical theories, in particular to mathematics, education without doing kind of independent, grappling with these contexts. And so knowing that we kind of wanted to move into the space of understanding equity, in mathematics, education, this was kind of a self starting opportunity to engage in these conversations with a group rather than independently.

Tory Bell  2:58  
And to me and and let me say, Hello, because I was on mute when you introduced us, and I said, Hello, and nobody heard. But exciting. Excited to be here. I went into curriculum studies, because I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to create change. And so within our institutional context, there was not an opportunity for us to explore Critical Theory within curriculum studies. And so that that was the impetus for the conversation that Michael and I had, because at Michael's experience, my experience gave context to the desire for something having to do with critical theory as a mechanism for change. And Michael's passion for for change, as well as my passion for change. What is what really drove that conversation. And what I found, especially for lack of a better term satisfying is that Michaels interest in mathematics was deeply connected to my experience and realization through mathematics, as a as a elementary school, middle school of secondary education in the United States. So we connected on that level and myself as an engineer math is the near and dear, but how can we look at critical ways of addressing the circumstances that we find ourselves in and how can we make change?

Eva  4:21  
Thank you. I think that one of the points why I asked this follow up question is that we are realizing I think across the nation, that our programs aren't equipped to prepare math education, PhD students to tackle some of these issues. And I think we're slowly trying to figure out how to change our programs so that you don't have to make this an independent study. On the other hand, though, I think there will always be issues that people want to explore. And so this paper really is about this one experience but then also generally about what about other things that people want to kind of explore that aren't part of the formal experience, we believe

Tory Bell  5:09  
that now is the foundation of the world. We're biased in that regard. But the world is so much bigger and so much broader. And we have to be able to connect to the rest of the world and be able to connect our students to the rest of the world. And I think your point about the lack of opportunity within that education to be able to provide those connections for math educators, is, as a part of the challenge that we hope is addressed to the experience that we

Jill Newton  5:37  
have. Yeah. And I would just add to that, that, if in fact, we believe his math is so fundamental, you know, to the world in which we live, then we have to own that mathematics is dehumanizing for so many students and people in the world and the experiences that they have have been so unhealthy and violent and oppressive. And as a math teacher educators, we have to own that we have to figure out how do we learn about that? How do we understand that phenomenon better? And how do we help our students, our pre service teachers as well, and teachers that we work with think about those issues as well.

Eva  6:13  
I just love the fact that with this group, I don't even get past question one. But let me ask a follow up question. Jill, could you explain or anybody else, when you say maces dehumanizing for somebody who has not heard that term before? Doesn't know what that means? What do you mean by that?

Jill Newton  6:32  
I hardly know where to begin with this question. Because there's so much about mathematics experiences, I think, that are dehumanizing. I mean, I always say, if you ask people in the United States, you know, do you like math? Do you think you're good at it? You know, 90% of people would probably say no, but to both of those questions, that is not a global phenomenon, right? That is not true everywhere in the world. So we have to own that that's a cultural phenomenon that somehow is happening we are we are sending the message out into the world. Sorry, I'm having an airplane here, sending the message out into the world that some people are mathy. And some people aren't math, the math is for some and not others. So for the students who we are sending the message, which is the majority of students that math is not for them. That is dehumanizing. And it doesn't matter. If you look at the K 12 level or the university level, I think those that is a widespread phenomenon. And all you have to do is ask a few people and you will get stories, lots of stories about the ways in which it was dehumanizing for them and even oppressive and even you could even say as much as violent when we have you know, 50% Fail withdraw rates in college algebra across the country in lots of research universities, right. So that is dehumanizing for people. So I mean, I think there's lots of ways in which it's dehumanizing. I think it's culturally very whitespace. And we don't value other ways of thinking in mathematics classrooms. So I think that there's lots of pizza historically, it's a whitespace and dehumanizing. So I don't know, I think there's a lot of parts to that for me.

Tory Bell  8:05  
If I could jump in take you back on what Phil said. What's fascinating about to me about mathematics is it simultaneously has the ability to be dehumanizing and empowering. And I think our challenge is, how do we unlock the ability of mathematics to be empowering, as opposed to dehumanizing, it's dehumanizing, because it is like, like Joe said, it's a it's a white own space, it's a male own space. So racial, ethnic, and gender lines, it has a tendency to assume that if you don't fit that white male model, then you are not going to be good at math. And we shouldn't waste our time on making you good at math. But we realize that mathematics is problem solving. It is the power to solve problems. And so if we look out in the world, and we see all these problems that we have, and and it's it's on the forefront today, with police violence and the oppression that we're seeing through political processes, if math is is a problem solving tool, then we need to figure out how we can connect math educators and our students to unlocking the power to solve these problems. For me, I was fortunate enough to have educators that gave me the opportunity to be empowered through using mathematics. I

Michael  9:30  
don't disagree with anything that's been said. I actually agree. But I also want to note that I don't think math is an anomaly. You know, yes, there's mathematical ideologies, like some people are math people, and some people are not. But life for people of color is dehumanizing. schooling is dehumanizing. So Matt, we can't pretend anymore that math is some ake a cultural a historical phenomenon that exists outside of Real Life. So if we're going to if it ever is going to be humanizing, if it ever is going to be less than a white dominant space, then we need to understand people's full humaneness in as they live as black and brown people, indigenous people in the poor people in the world, and then take that into account, develop a pedagogy that is equitable and just good point. I think, Craig, what you're saying to like, gets back to this point of like, what is dehumanizing about mathematical spaces, and I think of mathematical spaces. And it's like this idea of like reinforcing whiteness in a lot of places and the ways in which mathematics is taught. And so in the paper we describe, I think, with Frankenberg, his definition of whiteness being characterized as the unwillingness to name the contours of raising racism. And we've seen a lot more work coming out about mathematical spaces being seen as these colorblind spaces. And so I think one thing that I that I took away from this reading group was, again, connecting these conversations back to the historical implications of it, which is what I think was really powerful for many of us as we're having our conversations, and then to thinking about how still we're seeing these pushback about mathematics as being a political. And as Craig was just saying that mathematics is not this anomaly, it is not a political and we really need to kind of push back on these ideas.

Eva  11:09  
Thank you, Michael, for getting us back on track, because I think I could have lived in that other space for like, weeks. So let me jump to the next question. Who do you think should read this article?

Michael  11:21  
I don't, while attempting to say everyone, right, everyone in math, teacher education, I don't necessarily true, it ought to be for read by the anybody who is serious about understanding their own role in these mathematics education as a part of. So I always come back to this pivotal moment, I had Danny Martin's 2015 talk at NCTM, where he had a sharp critique of the principles to action document that was just released, and says, who's this board? You know, is this gonna make a difference? Because we've been talking about equity for decades, and it's been pretty impotent. This document is a long is in the line, have a long history of documents that say a lot, but also say kind of not much at all, in terms of really transformational change in mathematics classrooms. So to me, that really shocked me and I'm like, gosh, whatever we think we're doing is not enough. So if you're interested in considering a myriad ways in which you can understand systems and histories that shaped the way one conventionally do thing, but to what we do individually, then this is just one kind of avenue to collaborate and to kind of interrogate the way that we do things and how we might how it might lead to change that really

Eva  12:50  
nicely leads us actually into the next question, which is, what is the important problem, or issue that you are addressing? In your article?

Jill Newton  12:59  
I'll just say a bit, I think for me, so we've talked about kind of how other people could think about right doing reading groups. And lots, I mean, there's reading groups all over the place right now, like, I think we're in three, I'm in three reading groups related to race at Purdue right now. So this is a big, you know, I think that this is a big movement, right? Lots of people are reading. But what I really liked about this was really how informal it was, and how spontaneous it was, and how the pieces were foundational pieces. So it wasn't someone directly connecting it to math, it was us doing the intellectual work together collectively, of finding the connections between this historical foundational pieces, and this, this historical work and math education in the current context. So I liked the intellectual work of doing that, collectively with these others.

Tory Bell  13:50  
And I think one part of what this work or the question or the issue that we're addressing, is the need for us as educators to push deeper and harder into vulnerable spaces. And I think if there's one thing that I want people to take away from our experiences to take away from it, that there is, we're all busy, and we're all pulled in 100 different directions, and to prioritize the value of prioritizing, putting that time and space aside, to self reflect, to engage in critical conversations with people who are different from you, whether it be on an ethnic, racial, gender, or power level, when you read the work that we did. I think it says that this is valuable. This is worth the time that you take away from other things, to be able to push yourself harder and deeper and to be vulnerable about these topics and these issues. I love

Eva  14:47  
how you guys are like really opening the door to the next question in all of your responses cuz I think we're ready for really digging into what exactly did you all do? So could you just ascribe this reading group, and then how it addresses the needs of why you started it.

Michael  15:07  
So I can start us off. And folks, please, you know, add to it if I'm missing things. Yes, we so we said that we engaged in the critical reading group, we kind of started looking through what were books, what were readings that people were recommending in the field, as well as what were things that were kind of on our reading list that we hadn't had a chance to read yet that dealt with issues of oppression, colonization and power. So through some discussion, and through some kind of trimming down from a larger list, we ended up at three books that we could read throughout a 16 week course. So we read Frantz Fanon is wretched of the earth, Paulo fairies, pedagogy of the oppressed, and Bill Watkins, white architects of black education. And so throughout the 16 weeks, we basically met once every other week. And we decided, like pretty early on that we were enjoying the conversation, there was something going on with how we were meeting and kind of how the conversations were flowing in our own understandings developing so we agreed to start recording. And we saw this as an opportunity to identify like prominent themes of what were the discussions that we were having. So identifying themes individually, and then collectively comparing, and eventually identifying representative instances of kind of the conversations we were having. So Craig actually brought in and through conversation with Masonic XNB, who was one of our guest speakers, he came in and actually talked to us about this like role of reflective teaching, and really kind of helped us to see how, what we were doing kind of fit within these bounds of what's out there and listen referred to as reflective teaching or examining Bible look at the five, but these kind of like five features of reflective teaching that we outline in the paper. So we saw that as an opportunity to expand on

Eva  16:34  
our own, you name those five features quickly?

Michael  16:37  
Sure. So they don't mind as examining framing and attempting to solve the dilemmas of classroom practice. The second feature is to be aware of and question the assumptions and value that we bring to teaching. The third is attention to the institutional and cultural contexts in which we teach. The fourth is that we take take part in curricular development and and be involved in school change efforts. And the fifth being to take responsibility for our own professional development. And so we kind of started this, this writing experience focusing in on that last one in seeing this as like a step towards our own professional development. And actually, we got a lot of feedback and a lot of support from the reviewers of MTE. So if we haven't said it already, we want to say thank you, again, because they really pushed our understandings and challenged us to kind of rethink some of the things that we were talking about in the paper. And so we ended up kind of expanding and connecting a lot of what we were doing to the other four dimensions of reflective teaching as well. I don't

Tory Bell  17:29  
know if this is the place to talk about this. But I, I know that when we got together, we realized looking at the composition of our group, the multifaceted dynamics that we brought to the table, my son and myself being graduate students, Jill, and Craig, the professor's, the gender variation, the racial variation, myself, seeing Afro Latino, those aspects of who we are really enriched the conversation that we were able to engage across the board,

Eva  18:05  
in the paper, on over several tables, kind of layout, your identities and what you all took away. And so it's really a nice way of for those people who are more interested to go in and really follow each of you and your story throughout. Okay. So Michael, when you were talking about like, I'm assuming from reading this and from our conversation, and now it's hard for me to parse those apart is that you were a driving force in this right? Because you wanted to learn as a student and create this, or maybe you enjoy. So how did this go from? We want to do a reading or independent study or whatever to this is going to be a research thing. And then what questions are we studying?

Jill Newton  18:55  
Can I just chime in just really quickly about kind of history of the group because I think it's interesting that when, when Mike came, so I'm an MSU, grad. But when Mike came and started his PhD at Purdue, one of the things that produce program really doesn't do a lot of foundational texts like this in the way in some sense, and he was really interested in doing this work. And it reminded me of when I was in graduate school, and Craig was in graduate school at UIC at the time. And we, Danny Martin had a course we didn't have such a course at Purdue. So we teamed up with some ELA people and Danny Martin, and we kind of created a course at MSU. And my message to Mike at that time was sometimes opportunities aren't going to be there. And you have to go and find those opportunities. You have to create those opportunities. And Mike and Craig had been I put them in touch early on because I knew that they had a lot of aligned interests. But I really think I guess a message for graduate students from this is to is if your university doesn't offer what it is you You want in terms of professional development for yourself created, there are likely other people too out there that are looking for similar opportunities. And I know in what in my grad school experience, and I know now in mics that that is made a really a richer experience and brought into our network, also of people to learn from,

Michael  20:18  
I think we recognized the work as potentially representative of what others could do. I mean, if you understand the gravity of the problem, even probably any example that you can provide to others would be helpful. So we didn't necessarily really go into it, planning to research it, although it we did record and we wanted documentation of this process. And this is another thing that was really, really helpful from the editors, is that after the first draft, they're like, Yeah, let's treat this, let's treat this as what it probably is a conceptual piece, you know, and overstate how much appreciation I have for that in our positivistic paradigm world of research, you know, where we want to make claims, and we want to support those claims. For AI, we see value in just what happened. And, and maybe we didn't fully realize everything I can name one thing we didn't fully realize, and that's the intersect, although there was much conversation around race and how it intersects with capitalism, you know, that's still something where we need to grow, and also with intersections of gender. And we had exemplary reviewers to who pointed this out. So those are lines of inquiry that can still be realized. But I really appreciate the fact that it was treated, that we were encouraged to treat it as a conceptual piece and provided an example of what that might look like.

Eva  21:47  
Nice. So with that caveat, that it's not really a research study, but more conceptual piece. I do think that if I remember correctly, that you were really interested in documenting what was going on, right? I'm guess I'm curious how this reading group turned into will record everything, and then did recording changed? interactions, because I imagine at least in the beginning, it might feel a little bit more awkward saying some things if you know, they're being recorded,

Jill Newton  22:21  
some might say it didn't change as much as it should have.

Tory Bell  22:28  
I would say for myself that it did not, I mean, we, I think we had a safe space for, for us to have a conversation, whether it was recorded or not. And I don't for me, personally, it didn't change the dynamic, because it's, it's honest, it's sincere, it's authentic. And so I think we have to embrace authenticity in the work that we do. And if it's, if it's recorded, and here it is, we shouldn't be afraid of that.

Michael  22:56  
And I think so. To be honest, I didn't know, I could have had no no idea where it was going to go. If it were ever to be written up in a manuscript and published. But at my core, I'm really fascinated by how individuals change ideologically and, and how they shift in perspective, how they assume different perspectives and how they can understand other people's perspective. And the other part of this, from my perspective, is I wholly and sincerely acknowledged myself as part of the problem I think this is part of, of acknowledging whiteness, and how it manifests in many different ways of our work in our personal lives, our professional and personal lives. So again, back to that 2015 Talk by Danny Martin, nobody is exempt, nobody is enlightened, nobody is past the point where their work is not contributing to institutional racism. It is they are a part of it. And until we actually are vulnerable enough to admit, admit this, and I noticed has been talked about could get in and look in the mirror windows and mirror mirrors, then there's practice, you know, what do you do? And also I wanted to circle back to the sonic assemby and, you know, the the Zeichner and listings reflective teaching, we're not talking about cerebral reflection, we're talking about critical practice, you know, trying to do something about it, you know, doing a little bit more than the talk. Yes. To Joe's point, the intellectual work is important, the leg work is important, but then slowly, maybe it becomes it comes out in the work that we do.

Eva  24:36  
So let me follow up a little bit on that because I think this is a good time for us to tackle the question. When you say institutional racism and white space for somebody who does not quite know what that means, even though those terms are being used a lot now, could we try to share what your group how your group defines knows,

Tory Bell  25:00  
I'll kick this off. And I know everybody else has much more to say on this. But I think taking the approach of understanding, colonialism really begins to unpack what is institutional and systemic racism, the systems that we have in place, as a legacy of slavery in this country still exists and persist in our society today, those systems were put in, in place as a mechanism for maintaining power. And you can look at the statistics, and you can look at how that power differential has been perpetuated throughout the history of our country. And if we begin to, like we did in our conversations around the texts that we read, begin to unpack the fact that these systems continue to exist and persist, that make it almost impossible for people of color for women, or for people to ever experience that we, in our constitution in this country, claim to be the American dream. And that's just a shadow of a concept, if all of the systems that are in place drive you away from those opportunities that would allow you to embrace that thing.

Michael  26:18  
Earlier, we talked about the definition. So as we're kind of defining whiteness, we utilize Franklin Briggs definition, but then also thinking about there's a lot of work from Dan Beatty and Luis Leyva in their framework for whiteness and mathematics education that we do not use as like the analytic lens through which we look at our work, but more so just kind of informing the ways in which we're thinking about whiteness, and defining whiteness. And so they lay out some different dimensions, and in particular, labor, institutional and identity, where they talk about whiteness in these ways. And in the ways of which, what are the expectations for who should be doing the work, in particular in mathematics spaces, or who's capable of doing the work mathematics spaces, the need for control, and also who kind of sees themselves as like being able to participate? And so those were those were some of the conversations that I think pulled us through. But I think going back to what you were asking if I'm kind of coming into this space and thinking, okay, like, what is what are we talking about, like whiteness, white supremacy, and white privilege, we're talking about like whiteness is like this ideology that maintains the systemic, the systemic maintenance of white supremacy, and then white supremacy, being the valuing of those who are white over non white folks. And then white privilege being those unwarranted benefits. And that's where I feel like we're seeing a lot of medical spaces are those benefits that are on earned and unwanted and sometimes,

Eva  27:30  
so I'm wondering, as I'm trying to wrap up our podcast, if, and I know this is unexpected. So you might need a second to think through. But if each of you could take a little time, to position yourself, talk about what the experience was like for you. And then maybe, I'm assuming this was a little while ago, because it takes a while to get a paper published, like maybe one or two things that have changed, or that you're doing in your practice now based on that reading group. So just maybe each of you positioning yourself and then talk a little bit about the experience and some of the after effect,

Tory Bell  28:13  
one thing that I would like to and this isn't directly responding to your question, but I think it's important for us to bring to the surfaces, the conversation that we had around incremental change versus non incremental change. And the the acceptable approach to change and curriculum studies in general, and and I would say, venture to say in math education, specifically, is that we work around the margins to be able to create the change that people are comfortable with. And I think, you know, Mike might even jump in because I know you this was a profound realization that you have, but that, you know, maybe, you know, this whole idea of incremental change is counterproductive, that in order for us to really to be able to make a difference, we have to embrace the need for huge, earth shattering disruption in the process.

Michael  29:12  
Yeah. And I'll just kind of pick up there. Thanks. Great. So I think this is one of the kind of conversations that we're having is, you know, if we kind of adhere to these ideas of incremental change, as we're seeing, as many societies have kind of engaging with going back to colonialism, and kind of the historical roots of what we're seeing today in mathematics spaces, things are changing. And as Craig was saying, in connection with any Martin's work, things aren't changing fast enough. And so thinking about okay, what are the changes that need to be made in how are we rethinking mathematical spaces in really big ways? And so I think that to your question, Eva, how am I kind of thinking about this or kind of where is this put me now is thinking okay, what, what are those steps that I can be then taking in my own sphere of influence? So thinking then about, like my own instruction, and I think there's a lot of work coming out, like Frances Harper's work, like how equity and social justice oriented instruction can still reinforce whiteness So in a lot of ways without explicitly kind of reflecting on your own identity and positionality, and where you fit in the system, and so Craig said it earlier, but I think it's so true of, we all kind of need to recognize the ways in which we are complicit in these systems. And I feel like these conversations were one of the, that was one thing that helped me in these conversations was recognizing the ways in which, you know, despite the best intentions, or we think of like the best, like intentions of like white power brokers, and a lot of these places, we are complicit in kind of upholding these systems without working to actively disrupt them. So I think about two things, from an intellectual perspective, you know, I think it's really important to acknowledge the deep history, and the global history, that kind of makes a difference in everyday life in middle America, in cities, East Coast, West Coast. You know, colonization isn't something that happened. And then people were liberated, and everything is good. We live in a just and equitable world. That's not how it happened. And it's not how it's happening. Colonization still exists. And it manifests in different forms all the time. And I think Troy touched on that, too. And Mike, too, in terms of white supremacy, the other thing that really on a micro level that I think about in teacher, Ed, is how we support our teacher candidates, our teacher, our colleagues, in higher ed of color are colleagues of color, and to help not be undermined, not be dismissed, but get the credit, the intellectual credit and professional credit they deserve. And the same goes for our teacher candidates. And this is especially true for how we teach teacher candidates of all races and ethnicities to perceive black and brown learners. And one example that I'll give is that I've been thinking about a lot is, we might say that we believe all kids can learn mathematics. And we might even and I always ask my students, well, how do the students know that you believe that they can do mathematics? And, you know, some people might point to giving praise? Well, I give them I give them you know, like I commend them when they get it. But there's a difference between praise and credit, you know, so how do we give credit for mathematical ideas, however, half baked, or however rudimentary? You know, when do we when and how do we give credit. And that is, to me a micro interaction that makes a big difference in this kind of journey of developing mathematical identity,

Jill Newton  32:24  
I just feel responsible, that we are responsible, right, as Mike mentioned, spheres of influence, like we have, there is a lot of work to do. And there is nobody none of us get to, even if it doesn't impact our lives directly. None of us get to walk away and just put our head in the sand, right? We this is a job, this change is not going to happen by a few people stepping up and working on this right. We all have to work on this. And I think work on this both internally, right? What is it that I need to know what is it I need to understand both about the world and about myself and my place in the world? And comparing that to other people's place in the world? And how how different those experiences are. So there's this kind of work you're doing right? Like we're reading Zinn, and I'm reading any clouds book right now about James Baldwin, and how all of these things fit together and how all of these messages are, like, so essential for us to to think about. And then, as others have said, you know, there's the kind of practice piece like what, where is our sphere of influence? What can we be doing about it and calling it out? And how, again, this kind of sitting at a dinner and listening to people implicitly be racist, and just accepting that and letting it go and not not saying things? So I think it's, it's like, how can we meet people where we where they are? How can we help people think about this? How can we ourselves, think about it? How can we help our pre service teachers? Think about it, and I one of the things I say to them is I want you to notice when you go into your school, notice, what are the experiences of students from different backgrounds in your school, because a lot of schools, there are really two schools going on, right? There's the school for the white and privileged, upper middle class kids, and gifted whatever that means air quotes, sorry for those who aren't connecting me. But you know, all of this, and then there's this other world, right, which is the remedial world, which is often even physically, a different place in the building, right? And who are in those seats who are in those seats and notice it, notice what you're the kinds of ways those different groups of students are being taught. So just being aware of recognizing where you can make change and helping our pre service teachers really question things, you know, what is it that's happening and where are the inequities and what what is it that you can do about it?

Tory Bell  34:48  
I find it particularly intriguing that as we embark on this reading group, and around critical theory and the conversations that we had, we found ourselves on the front end of an open all out assault on the idea of critical race theory. You know, within the last six, seven months, this notion that critical race theory cannot be taught in our, our institutions or in our schools or in K 12. Teacher educating programs just suggests that we are on to something, you know, with this desire to dig deeper into to critical theory, because otherwise they wouldn't be so offensive to those that want to attack. And so there must be value in what we're talking about, if it creates such fear in people about the fact that we are asking questions. I mean, that's what Critical Theory is about questioning. And if that is going to be conceived as toxic, then that suggests that we have so much more work to be done.

Eva  35:53  
So let's move to our last question that is kind of this, how do you see other people using it? I'm thinking, there's so many things that are involved in creating a group like that, like, how do you decide who's going to read with you? Because that's going to make a big difference, right? And then how do you decide what to read? And I think once those decisions are made, do you talk a little bit about making the decisions, your articles are really nice kind of go through and like what you consider with respect to positionality questions and those kinds of things? Let me just put that out there. How do you see other people like, so they read this article? How could they use that? How do they move forward from there?

Michael  36:39  
Again, I really appreciate the editors encouraging us to make that guide, the appendix and the guide for how for how others might do it. One thing I think we agreed on is that it's voluntary, probably, for this kind of topic, that you would take up foundational texts, if that's what you'd want to do, might not be appropriate for a departmental reading group, you know, that you would do as a department. This is voluntary. And it's also you know, like, Joe said it before, it was informal, I think there's a lot of benefit to being informal with people, you know, it doesn't mean everyone needs to know everybody. I didn't know, Troy. But there is some level of trust that it makes bringing Troy, you know, and being acknowledged, like you said, those power dynamics in the group, which I think need to get knowledge, if not explicitly and formally, in terms of norms, just, you know, individually. So then the last thing I'll say, is expected to go on, you know, yes, everyone is managing their own work life. So what's a reasonable schedule? Is there flexibility if we can't, if we can't meet, you know, expect this to be something that's not just get it done and move on, but that you're committed to your commitment, it reflects your commitment to the topic? And again, the gravity of the problem?

Jill Newton  38:01  
Yeah, I mean, I would just say, at the same time, none of us have time for this, right? Literally, this is all of us. And we weren't all there every single time. But at the same time, none of us have time for it, all of us have to find time for it. Right? It's there is as from my perspective, no more important issue for us to be investing in right now than this, especially given the pushback, as Troy alluded to, with critical race theory, pushback and any chance, it seems that some people in our society are finding ways to move us backward, right. So there seems to be nothing more important to find time for, for us to find time for right now.

Tory Bell  38:40  
And I would add that there really is no formula that says that these people should be at the table and and these specific text, but I think it's really driven by intellectual curiosity and a willingness to engage in a space that's vulnerable. I think those are necessary pieces to this. And you see where that takes you. In the process. Like we said, In the beginning, we have this curiosity about critical theory. And we also had this interest in professional development, becoming better people and better educators as a result of exploring these topics. That is an important element of a successful group around these topics.

Michael  39:29  
And I'll just reiterate, as Troy was saying, in order for there to be in order for us to feel comfortable having it or being vulnerable in these ways, I think it was really important to create a safe space. And I think that was done through mutual trust, as Craig was saying within our group, but I think that as people are kind of thinking about engaging in these reading groups like setting up a space in which they feel safe to be vulnerable, because I think that was a very important aspect of engaging these conversations.

Jill Newton  39:52  
I want to say too, it was enjoyable. I feel like I learned so much from these other three people. And I enjoyed it. I looked forward to it. So I think also because these topics can be so overwhelming to read historically, about the things that happened and are still happening, I think also to try to keep a little bit of light in the space, I think feels important to me as well.

Eva  40:20  
Well, thank you all so much. And this is really, I would say, a one of a kind kind of article. Because reading it allows you to almost really get to know each of you, because you share so much of yourselves in the paper. And then having this conversation was fantastic. So let me give you a chance. Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up that you just want to have on this podcast? Thanks.

Jill Newton  40:52  
So you've spent great,

Tory Bell  40:54  
I thank all the members of the group for the time and effort that they put in. It absolutely was an enjoyable experience. And thank you for the opportunity for us to share this with your listeners.

Michael  41:07  
Thank you, Eva. Thank you so much.

Eva  41:09  
Thank you all this has been fantastic. And for further information on this topic. You can find the article on the mathematics teacher educator website. This has been your host Eva Anheuser. Thank you for listening and goodbye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai