0:00  
Hello and thank you for listening to the mathematics teacher educator journal podcast. The mathematics teacher educator journal is co sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators and the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. My name is Eva Sennheiser, and I'm talking with Stephanie Casey, from Eastern Michigan University in the Department of Mathematics and Statistics, and Joel Amidon from the University of Mississippi in the department of teacher education, we will be discussing the article Do you see what I see formative assessment of pre service teachers noticing of students mathematical thinking, published in the June 2020, issue of the mathematics teacher educator journal, we will begin by summarizing the main points of the article, and discuss in more depth the lessons they shared in the article, their successes and challenges and how these lessons relate to their other work. Stephanie, and Joel, thank you for joining us. Thanks, it.

0:52  
We're really excited to be a part of this podcast and share a little bit about our work and get people jazzed to use it themselves.

0:59  
Thank you. It's good to be here.

1:00  
That's awesome. Can you get us started by just briefly describing the innovation? Sure. So

1:05  
Joel, and I work together to create a formative assessment tool to be used with pre service secondary mathematics teachers around developing their professional noticing skills. And the implementation of this tool that we discussed in the article is called the teaching line of best fit experience. And the reason it's called teaching line of best fit is that it centers around and approximation of practice that's based on study of actual teachers trying to help secondary teach students learn about the line of best fit a very common statistical topic.

1:43  
Yeah, what was cool in this, whatever the experience that Stephanie accumulated, for the teacher line, best experiences that it was from her observations in the classroom, so and seeing like, what was a moment that could be extracted as something to maybe not ideal practice, but something that like, Hey, we got something to talk about here. So it was pretty neat.

2:02  
Could you explain when you say approximation of practice what that means, and maybe give us a little bit of an insight into what yours looks like?

2:12  
Sure. So an approximation of teaching practice is something that is meant to be similar to what one does when you teach, but it's not the actual practice of teaching a classroom full of students. So our approximation of teaching practice is a representation in the depict tool of lesson sketch, which is basically kind of like a comic strip depicting what happened in a real classroom. And it's really actually an amalgamation of things that happened in multiple classrooms. And then this comic strip, you see figures that represent students and the teacher, and they have speech bubbles that represent the things that they said. And so you're basically reading a comic strip to see what was happening in this classroom.

2:58  
And what's cool is you can, it's at your own pace, right. So as a kind of just like a common strike, you can read as fast or as slow as you want, versus a, if you had it with a video or something like that is, you know, stream guy, you can slow down a video, obviously. But I mean, this is something you can process in the moment from speech bubble, the speech bubble and noticing within the comic strip.

3:18  
Alright, so I think now I have a visual of what this looks like. And I think you have a link in the article for people if they want to go see your comic strip, as well as some pictures. So let's get to a brief summary of the article, including the results.

3:33  
So in the article, we start off by talking about the importance of developing pre service teachers, professional noticing skills, and we talked about how folks have found this difficult to do and developing professional noticing skills regarding students mathematical thinking is a hard thing for teachers to learn how to do. So it takes extended work over amounts of time. And because of this, having a formative assessment to help both the teacher and the learner in developing professional noticing skills is really, really helpful. And so we foreground our article by talking about the importance of formative assessment and professional noticing skills. And as mentioned, because we're talking about teaching line of best fit, we talked about how it's important to be doing so in the area of statistics in particular, and often ignored area that and teacher education where we could do a lot better job of preparing teachers to teach statistics in particular. So this is fitting that need as well. From there, we go into a description of the experience and try to help the reader know exactly what this means. And like you said, we have a link to the actual experience. In the appendix we have all the prompts that are intermixed throughout the comic strip that the pre service teachers have to answer as they go through. So really, you've got all that framework there to get a hopefully rich sense of what it means to actually enact this experience in the secondary teacher ed program that your location and enjoy Want to talk a little bit about the results?

5:02  
Yeah. So I mean, we basically were looking at, could we actually use this approximation in practice to formatively? assess how students were engaged in professional noticing. And so one of the things that I really liked about the, what we saw was we saw a variety of responses, right? So it wasn't just something that was pointing at students to say, hey, fill in this blank and say these things, and you've got professional noticing down like that, that wasn't the case where we saw the prompts that Stephanie put in, that their students are allowed to engage in, we saw just a bunch of different ways that students respond to what did they attend to work? How are they interpreting what they were attending to, and then again, formulating responses. And so looking at that, that was great to see that, hey, it was a sensitive tool, right, that we could see a variety of different ways that students were taking up the work. And then also even then we were able to look at the kind of the ultimate was if they engaged in an emerging response, right. So that meant to their saw what the students was doing, they use that in the interpreted that work and use that with the students mathematical work was in order to formulate how they would act in that situation and then justifying it right. So having that emerging response, according to our rubric was, but as best as they could do on the rubric, but then to look at what kinds of responses they put forth within that they put together, we could then look at those and slice those up even further to see like, was their response student centered? Or did the teacher do all the work? Or was it still maintaining cognitive demand? And things like and seeing like, what levels of responses that you can see even within that, and so we kind of detail that within the article as well. And just saying, like, does this meet the criteria of what we put forth as a good formative assessment? And so that was justified within the article as well.

6:53  
So this comic strip strip you developed with questions, is a tool that you can use to figure out where your pre service teachers are, with respect to professional note noticing at a certain point in time, is that accurate? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So professional noticing for those who may not be as familiar with that term, in a few sentences, could you tell us what that is? Sure. Basically,

7:24  
we consider professional noticing to be the idea that you're as a teacher attending to how students think, interpret whatever you are given regarding evidence of how that student thinks, and then deciding how to respond to that student, again, building on the student thinking that they've made evident to you.

7:45  
So the idea of your tool, then is to assess where your teachers are, with respect to being able to attend to how their own students are, in this case, the students in the comic strip are thinking about mathematics.

8:02  
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. One thing that I mean, I think that's captured in part of the difficulty of teaching professional noticing, or wanting to foster professional noticing with perfect pre service teachers. And we lay out some design in the article and really captured I think, in the vignette, for the beginning is that we just have completely different glasses that we're kind of looking at classrooms with where, in the vignette at the beginning, Dr. Stacy is looking at a classroom and seen some things, some moves that the teacher is making, like, ooh, those are problematic. And the same time the student teacher is in that same classroom, and they're noticing classroom management issues, and not really the mathematics teaching that is happening. And so what's nice about this is that this sort of experience gives everyone a common experience. So having this comic strip and let me just shout out to Dan Jason and pat hertz to have, you know, kind of brought lesson sketch together. We were talking Steffi and I were talking like thing, it's been 10 years now this platform in order to create these sorts of depictions of practice that you can then use in these sorts of experiences. But anyway, to have a common experience that everyone can see, because that one, that vignette is just one thing between Dr. Stacy and the student, Erica it in it, and you can't really it's hard really to just, hey, let's talk about this experience when not everyone has had it. So this creates a common experience that every one that can look at, and now we can have something, again common that everyone can then attend, interpret and respond. And so we can kind of see what are different ways that you can respond to the situation, what are the different things you can attend to, but then also stripping out details that it's that it kind of points you in the right direction, but doesn't quite do it all the way of how we might want you to professionally respond to this scenario, but then giving everyone that same experience so that you can go back and then have a teaching about it that everyone is on the same page with because we've all had the same experience. So that's what's nice about this.

9:56  
It's kind of like a focusing tool on aspect of the classroom. The other thing I wanted to get at, because I think the article does a nice job is, then you're saying that this is a formative assessments. So I'm wondering if you could just say a few sentences about what that means and why we care about that?

10:17  
Well, formative assessment is a way of getting information about what learners know with respect to what you're trying to teach in a way that makes it explicit and viewable through artifacts, and then the learner and the instructor. So in this case, the secondary pre service math teachers and the mathematics teacher instructor, use those artifacts, interpret them, and give feedback to one another, regarding them to help get a sense of what the learners understand at that point. And that informs the learners, as you know, gives them a insight into where they stand in developing the professional noticing skills, in particular, and the teacher a sense of where are the my students in learning professional noticing skills? What do I need to work on more? What do I think they've got a good handle on, and it's done mid course, rather than at the culmination of a unit or whole course. So it's meant to be formative in the sense that it's informing instruction, rather than a summative assessment at the end of a unit or course as a final evaluation?

11:21  
Well, let me just piggyback onto that. So yeah, I mean, she talked about it being Stephanie said, it's midstream. Right. But then also, when the other criteria we put out there for what's a quality formative assessment is, I'll read verbatim dependent determines what learners know with respect to learning goals, which requires making learner thinking explicit and viewable and provides a framework for interpreting thinking which we have a rubric there. And then the final thing is like is providing valuable information regarding those learning goals to not only the instructor, but also the student. from a perspective of me as a teacher educator, I think of that as, hey, I've got this criteria now to think about what's a quality formative assessment. I really like that part of this article that we have that is like, Hey, here's my quick checkbox is my formative assessment, doing what I want it to do, like, is it? Is it a quality formative assessment? Or is it Hey, I'm using clickers? I'm good. It's a it's a formative assessment, right? No, like, Am I really evaluating something that I care about, Hey, I should have the framework, I should be doing it midstream, I should providing information to myself and to the students is not just, again, just given information back to me. And that goes back to the assessment principle from principles and standards, right? That information not only for the teacher, but also for the students, we should be practicing that within our teacher education program, as well.

12:36  
So this leads me nicely into the next question of who should read this article.

12:42  
I can do that. So I mean, I can go really broad I think anyone is anyone could read this. I don't even think any teacher educator could read this. Because again, I think the from the framework of thinking about formative assessment and really thinking about that, and what does it make do to make a quality formative assessment, that can be someone, also any teacher educator that could be thinking about man, I might need to do some approximations of practice of teaching. Because my field experience might not be a place I can go to in the COVID-19 era, but then to like having those common experiences that I can then use to teach my students about something that's important within a classroom. And then thinking about, specifically to someone that's doing statistics, Teacher Education, like Stephanie mentioned before, like, that's something that is not as has not been given a priority a lot of times in some of our literature. And so hey, here's an example of something that is specific, pretty valid experience where they're talking about specific content in that area. And so thinking about, okay, how else might I provide this because they might not be getting that out in the field placement, right, that they might not see how statistics teaching is being done. And so hey, here's a field experience, or here's a framework for thinking about how to create other experiences. So basically, everyone should read this article today.

13:57  
So what I thought it was really useful about the article was that it like you said, jewel, it provides a nice way that if I wanted to use formative assessment in any situation, it's a nice example to follow where it says, you know, to formative assessment, you have to have these things. And you just give a nice example. And we'll get more into your specific example, in a little bit. But also, I think it's a ready to use intervention that anybody could use in their classroom who is teaching line of best fit. And again, we'll get to this in a second of what exactly it does there. And finally, I wanted to follow up on your shout out earlier to the lesson sketch platform. Anybody could use your article to kind of think about, oh, I would like to create something like this, but in this context, or in this version, and it's a nice way of thinking through that

14:54  
go piggyback on that for real quick,

14:55  
so you can even

14:57  
so I know like the current the lesson sketch platform that this was was created on his was on flashing flashes kind of going away. And so those, you know, Dan Jason and Patterson thought, like, hey, there's some tools that they're bringing forward outside of that platform. But thinking like, like you just said, you could use this experience, and you don't necessarily need the platform, yes, you might need it for depicting a classroom, they've got some nice tools for that. But then, to insert this stuff into a Google form into Qualtrics, into, you know, Survey Monkey or whatever, to have some sort of similar like experiences using this approximate sort of teaching practice, either this one or one that you create on your own. I mean, now looking at all these bitmoji classrooms, people are making night, you know, could easily create a different classroom scenario, and that they could then use in whatever question or input receiving platform they want. And so yeah, having that sort of this is, again, this is just you don't have to use less than sketch, but less than sketch was used for this purpose.

15:57  
So So Stephanie, let's think back to why you started doing this, what was the important problem of practice that you were addressing,

16:08  
developing my pre service teachers professional noticing skills around students mathematical thinking is a primary goal of my work that I do with them and the courses I have them in I'm teach a number of secondary math methods courses. And as I mentioned earlier, we know that this is a challenging thing. It takes extended amounts of work to develop students skills at this to be at a level that we want them to have when they go out and get their own classrooms and start working with teachers, those students on their own as their teachers. And because it does involve such an extended amount of time on this, we need to have ways that are developing this midstream, like insane, that's what formative assessment steps into does for us, it really is helping advance their learning and understanding of where they are at this touch point in the course. So I've found it to be such a rich thing that I wanted to let the world know about it. And that led to me writing the article.

17:05  
So let's jump into just giving the reader a visual. So we already know it's a comic, can you tell us a little bit more about what exactly it's doing so that we have a visual of the experience? Sure. So

17:18  
it's depicting a classroom who is engaged in learning the topic of line of best fit. But it actually follows again, a documented lesson that I saw mostly around this idea where this lesson launched this idea with students by prove venting them a set of data about how many pounds of beans different families needed, who are of different sizes. And it just starts off with a very open ended question, how can we use this set of data to predict how many pounds of being a family of size 10 should bring, and a family of size 10 is not included in the data set. And the intention of the curriculum authors there was that that this was going to be a launching point to get students to see the need to graph the data. And then from graphing the data, it was supposed to get them to lead into wanting to model the data through line to help them make this prediction of how many pounds of beans a family size to needs and other things. So that's the intention of the curriculum authors. But in the implementation of this task in the classroom, and others that I've seen that have done similar things, that's not always the trajectory that the lesson takes. And so I think it's just been such a rich opportunity to really get into what do students really think about when they're presented with the set of data? And that question, and what is their natural approach to doing so? And how congruent? Is it with this idea of making a linear model and graphing the data or not? And if not, then what questions are they raising? And how can you try to work with that to steer them in the direction of grasping the data and making a line of best fit. And even once you get them steered in that direction, what are some stumbling blocks they may come upon. So that's the idea of this depiction is what happens in the classroom setting when implementing that task

19:03  
within what I like about this scenario that Stephanie depicted is there's this emphasis kind of shows up where the students voice is being honored. Right? within the scenario. In this case, it's not like, hey, all of a sudden, the teacher says, you know, we're not going to, you know, are basically saying, well, the title of the lesson is grab, we're gonna just graph this thing. And so forget about your scaling strategy. We're just gonna leapfrog over that. And so you know, it gets me so like, there's a stealing Thunder sort of thing, right? Like the not letting the students come up with a aha moment and just basically saying, Hey, we're going to go straight here and not letting anyone, like, come up with that idea, coming up with that strategy, or even encouraging them to explore other ways. And also thinking about, like, you know, we talked about this idea of like, empowering student apartment students. I mean, the students were empowered, the students were able to come up with a solution, but then the teacher stole that power by saying, Hey, I'm just gonna ignore what you're doing and Let's, let's jump to this other thing that we, we need to do to for the lesson. And so I think it's it offers a great scenario that you can have all sorts of different conversations around with regards to the mathematics, the teacher moves and everything. So there's lots of different angles at this scenario that Stephanie depicted.

20:17  
So let's jump a little bit from describing the innovation into the research questions that you asked yourself and what responses you found and what evidence you use.

20:30  
So our primary research question was around Is this a productive formative assessment of professional noticing the student's mathematical thinking? And so as we've mentioned a few times, we identified three key characteristics of what an effective formative assessment is based in the literature around formative assessment. So far, that's been published. And so then we went through the evidence that we had to show that it met each of these characteristics. So a lot of this is about not just like, if I look at this standalone thing, is it an effective form of assessment, it really has to do with its implementation. So you really are in this article learning a lot about like, what does it actually mean to implement this? And what happened in that? So for example, we mentioned that interspersed throughout the comic strip are questions that the pre service teachers have to answer. And so part of what we talked about in the implementation of this formative assessment is the providing of feedback to the pre service teachers on those responses. And so we do that at multiple levels in the implementation of the assessment. One is, as the mathematics teacher educator, I can provide individual feedback to those students responses, but I also collectively export all the responses that they have and look across the class, what are people saying, find common themes that are important to raise to the class and bring those to a class discussion, following the completion of the assignment. And so, you know, I think it's really important that we recognize that we have to assess the implementation of a formative assessment in order to see if it's meeting these characteristics. And so we do a lot of that and the results and talking about that. We also, in addition, show some results related to what are some other features that the pre service teachers who engage with this formative assessment noted as making it effective. And so some of those things include things like this idea that we are looking at a stripped down version made it easier for me to focus in on student thinking. But it also was authentic enough through the comic strip approach that I thought it was a real classroom. And I it's they found it more engaging than just written words on a page describing a scenario. So there's some aspects that we highlight in the article as well in our results that we found important to make it an engaging, something that was engaging for both the mathematics teacher, educator and the pre service teachers.

22:58  
So to wrap up, let's talk a little bit about if you had to summarize very briefly after we've now learned more in depth about your innovation, what would you say is the contribution you're making to the field of math, Teacher Education, with your innovation, and with your research on the innovation,

23:21  
I'll just brag on Stephanie for a bit first, like, she had some work that she's done in statistics, education, and then with regards to professional noticing, able to incorporate within this article that provides that like, Hey, here's something that you could use within stats, teacher education to forward that work, to thinking about professional noticing as having a framework and how to use it. And like we really give a lot of information about how we use that within the experience. That's also I think your contribution. On top of that, too, is the idea of having this approximation in practice and being almost being able to take this one out and put a different one in and thinking about the kinds of questions that you ask in order to get at how are students engaging in this idea of professional noticing and being able to provide them feedback? And how do we move them down the path? we're filling, I think that fills a gap too, because I think that most experiences within field experiences and words are going to be a, there's a wide variety in normal situations, because we an even wider variety now in the kinds of experiences that students are going to have, and in a COVID-19 era, that this can close the opportunity gap, right that students can get opportunity to preserve reseachers getting an opportunity to engage in these ideas of professional noticing, and being able to have common experiences within a class versus like, man, I just hope you're, you know, your clinical instructor talks about why the moves they did and why they did them versus like, here's a we can have intentional conversations around a common scenario. And I think that bringing that out and bringing that forward and how to do it. Well, I think that's what this article provides. Stephanie, anything else to add there?

24:55  
I think that it's playing a really big need in Secondary math teacher preparation, in particular, to get them to be more student centered in their approach to teaching, I feel like as a field, we've done a much better job at that at the elementary and perhaps middle school level, but really not so much at the secondary level. And we really need to move our work forward at that level of pre service teacher preparation as well. Not to mention how important formative assessment is, that's again, another thing we don't always do a very good job of as secondary mathematics as secondary mathematics teachers. And then even more specific to statistics, Teacher Education, as already mentioned, doesn't get a lot of attention a lot of time. So I think it's filling a need in the field to attend to those three things at the secondary math teacher preparation level.

25:44  
And I want to follow up on what you said, in terms of the current time we live in. This really is a way that we could think about field experiences that cannot happen right now. Where we could create field experiences. And the focus of your exam, one of the folk, I think it had many folk I was this moved at the teacher may, at some point where the students were really engaged in figuring out the answer to the question they were asked, but not using the goal, the stated goal of the lesson or the method, that was the stated goal of the lesson. And then the teacher just said, Oh, that's how we should use it and move kind of away from the students way of thinking fairly abruptly. And that's one issue we need to address, right. But there's lots of other issues one could address and so your intervention is really a model for how to address any issue that we notice is problematic, and then create innovations based on that. And I agree with statistics, I mean that there's so much stuff that happened with statistics, and with it being pulled out of elementary, and middle and all of a sudden, there's this need at high school that like is full of things high school teachers need to do all of a sudden. So this is a nice way of addressing some of those issues as well. Because it seems very reasonable. I think, from the statistics add perspective, this is typical, right? The students are like not looking at the variation. They're just looking at like one or two data points and making inferences from those. Absolutely. That's so very common, I think one of your students suggested I think, or one of your students, or you suggested that, you know, like, all the other data is not useless information. And that's something we have to learn right in the statistics. When we look at statistics, it's different from math in a way that it's not clean and easy and straightforward. And not all these data points are gonna fall on the same line. And so we can just select two, I mean, selecting two is reasonable. And it's a really good way to start. But it's, you know, it's not the statistical way of thinking about it. It's the mathematical way of thinking about it. So I thought that was really neat. In this case, as well.

28:23  
When you think about how close the gap is, for this experience brings them down to here's this student thinking, and here's where we want to get to, how do I ask a question or prompt something to move from this to that, that's a problem of how to do that, but that we can engage an entire classroom to have a conversation around that move, or that those moves that to do that? That's powerful.

28:45  
I agree. And I also think what his article does a really nice job of is, it's not that easy, often for us math educators, we're not stats educators, to see that there is actually a problem with the students solutions, right? Because it seems reasonable. It's like yeah, and so I think that is really a nice contribution of the article as well, to highlight some of the differences between the mathematical thinking and statistical thinking,

29:16  
I can't emphasize that enough. That's really important that we as a field work as mathematics teacher educators to understand that ourselves and help our free service teachers to understand this distinction. We do not want statistics taught like it's math, there are important differences there. And those need to be recognized and emphasized in the way in which we are developing statistical reasoning in our students. So I'm really pleased that you're noticing that

29:40  
well, I also feel like that's really important because that's the key to understanding the world and consuming data and consuming the news, right. And that's something that I think as a field, we are slowly turning towards recognizing that you know, mathematics should be used to read and write the world. And we need this kind of thinking to be able to do that. So I do think this, this is actually also very timely paper in the current climate. Alright, so I think we tackled a little bit how we see other people using the innovation by saying either you could just use it as is. And there's a nice rest of people in the article. And you don't really have to do much because there's the comic strip, there's the framework, there's the questions and just do it. But then also, you could just adapt it. Now I wanted to close out by giving both of you a chance to talk a little bit about how this particular paper fits into your larger body of work so that listeners can learn a little bit more about what you guys are doing. Well, for me, it's

30:47  
a wonderful convergence of work I've been doing since I became a mathematics teacher educator, I've done a good amount of work on developing professional nosiness students mathematical thinking, and pre service teacher education. And I've done a good amount of work in statistics, Teacher Education. And so this has been a really nice merging of those two things. So I had the added bonus of working with Joel, who is a lesson sketched fellow, because I knew I needed to be using some platform like that to put my ideas in action. And so it's been fantastic collaboration with him. He has been a great colleague, and we have worked well together and making this a reality and seeing some good results.

31:29  
Let me ask you a quick follow up question. Was it easy, medium, easy, difficult to create those lessons, sketch depictions,

31:38  
I would say medium difficulty, you have to get a little, you know, you got to get up the curve in terms of where's the buttons that you need to make this, you know, look like I wanted to look and have the elements I wanted to have. But as far as the storyboarding of the experience, and then putting that into this, I think the storyboarding wasn't too bad. When somebody explained how to do that. And it is up and running, and then actually implementing it every semester with my students, it's been very easy. What is kind of cool about that, and I'm sure this is true for other things, too, when we just need to put them on the web is that it now exists for everybody to use. So, you know, you created it,

32:18  
but it's up there, and anybody could just take it. And that's really, I think one of the powerful aspects. Because I've I think I've created little videos that I use in my classes for very specific things, or little pictures, but they're not freely available. And using either lesson sketch, or Desmos, or geometers. sketchpad or any of these platforms, one of the powerful things about that is that the stuff is available. And that's kind of cool. All right, let me come. How does this fit in your larger work? One, I

32:53  
think this larger work is I working together with others. And specifically, then Stephanie with this, it's like having my own ideas about lesson sketching, and working with Dan and Pat and the whole lesson sketch crew, and thinking about how to use this thing, and then going to Stephanie and being able to like talk to her about it and think about all the different ways we could use it, and to do the things that she wants to do. That was incredibly powerful. And so then idea about working with others and making better work together. I think that's been awesome. The other thing that I think is pretty important that is just this idea of these representations of practice or approximations of practice, and especially now I think more important than ever is having these experiences to give folks the experiences that we wanted to have. So it's this that in the statistics classroom experience, we want students to have in order to have a great conversation about a common shared experience within a classroom that we can relate to, that there's not the details in it that's going to be distracting. But we can really get to this specific instance that we want to talk about. Shameless plug for another mte article that I did with Dan chazan was Meet me in azoles room designing a virtual field placement for learning to teach mathematics. And so having a virtual space that's like your comp, that's your like field experience classroom that no matter where your students are at can we can talk about in this case, it was a room with his students and having scenarios that they could engage in where we could bring in student work and talk about how they engage in that. But having those virtual experiences I think is more important. And there's another article that I wrote, we referenced in the in the piece between Joe Sweeney, Amanda mill quits, but she's part of the lesson sketch crew. But anyway, we talked about choosing a virtual field placement. And so again, thinking about that, and some of the features and things and because there's all sorts of different platforms you could use in order to do a virtual field placement. I think that too, is again really important right now to be thinking about and something that thinking about and wanting to go forward. Again, the timing of this is pretty good from that perspective.

34:55  
Joe, let me follow up because I'm in a math department and So as Stephanie, right, so we might, maybe I shouldn't generalize from my experience, but I don't have to deal with field placements. But I know my colleagues in the School of Education here at Portland State, are really struggling with what to do this fall and how to work with placing students is there because I'm thinking now that one of the ways we really need to advertise this podcast is this virtual piece, right? That is really important right now, is there a place where there is a collection of virtual field experiences that people can go to?

35:35  
Well, that's in the conversion from the old lessons platform to the new one, there's an A tamos, I believe, is the newest we animate in Spanish entertainers. They're creating currently a collection. And I'm trying to trying to convert these so that everyone can have access to them and then can use them in whatever platform Qualtrics Google Forms, you just want to make a old school Google slide of it that people can then do some annotating on, but so that people can talk about these practices. So that's one that's be available. And I know people have made some things in like go animate and other things like that. There's also a more expensive version, but it's merjan, or teach live that used to be called that we have here at the University of Mississippi, but people use as well. But all those sorts of like experiences are going to provide some sort of ways to get at the kind of teaching the kind of talk that you want to have. I know, Lawrence Clark from University of Maryland, he's got some unique experiences that I don't know if they're readily available, but that he's been doing with regards to thinking about identity thinking about cultural aspects of a classroom. And so we need to have these spaces, right, we need to have these virtual spaces to you know, versus like, we're just waiting for that perfect video to show up, which we know doesn't exist. And even if the video does exist, the classrooms look differently than what we've have in our own communities. And so how do we make sure that when I'm showing something to my students here in Mississippi, that we're seeing classrooms that don't have distracting details that we can talk about the issues that we want to talk about, but then we can then lay those out onto these classrooms that they are in a part of, and so

37:07  
yes, all right. So there's a call to the field to create this for us. They're

37:13  
coming. They're coming.

37:14  
Thank you both so much for joining us today. This is a phenomenal conversation. Thank you, Eva. It's

37:20  
really been fun.

37:21  
It's been great.

37:22  
For further information on this topic. You can find the article on the mathematics teacher educator website. This has been your host, Ava Sennheiser. Thank you for listening and goodbye.