Eva 0:00 Hello and thank you for listening to the mathematics teacher educator journal podcast. The mathematics teacher educator journal is co sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators, and the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. My name is Eva Anheuser and today I'm talking with Christopher Jett from Georgia State University, Catherine BA from the University of Texas at Austin and Maria Del Rosario Zavala from San Francisco State University. Today we will be discussing the article from argumentation to truth telling critical race theory in mathematics teacher education published into June 2022 issue of the mathematics teacher educator journal. This is a different kind of article. So let's jump right in. Christopher Katherine Maria, can you briefly introduce yourselves? Christopher Jett 0:48 Hello, everyone. I'm Christopher Jett. I'm an associate professor of math education at Georgia State University. I've been engaged in the CRT work for about a decade now. And I'm looking forward to engaging with my colleagues in this important discussion. Cathery Yeh 1:02 Hi, everyone, Katherine, yay. I'm an assistant professor of STEM education and a core faculty in our Asian American studies program. Much of my work with CRT has been actually in communities and in school districts, trying to add clarity to what it is and what is it isn't. And within my own work, I focus on critical race disability study Asian American Critical Race theories and parent crits. I'm honored to be here with my beautiful brothers and sisters. Maria Zavala 1:30 Hello, I'm Maria Zavala, and as I mentioned, I'm at San Francisco State University, which is in California. And I'm an associate professor of elementary education where my areas are mathematics and bilingual education. I come to this work with my own background as a Peruvian American. My parents are both from Peru, and I was the first one on my family born in the United States. And a lot of my work engages both in critical race theory itself, but also in the closely associated Latino Latina Latina x critical theories and other Latina feminist theories in my work. Eva 2:09 Thank you so much for the introductions. Let's get started. How did this article come about? Or why did you write this article? Cathery Yeh 2:18 Because Christopher invited us, Christopher, Christopher Jett 2:22 this really was derived, I guess from our conversation, in preparation for pm ena. I just received this invitation to contribute a commentary a few weeks before that. And so when cat three sent the PME, and a invitation, it was always timely. And so it was just hey, you know, we're working on this particular presentation. It was just sort of an organic and natural thing and collaboration. So we just decided to move forward from there. Eva 2:49 Let's jump in to defining what is a CRT? And maybe each of you could add to that. Let's start with you, Christopher. Since you were the one who brought this group together. Christopher Jett 3:03 Yes. So CRT is a theoretical framework that placed this issues of race and racism at the forefront of analysis. Originally, you know, CRT had these five tenants and these tenants, you know, we expound upon them within the article. And I will say the other scholars and folks from other disciplinary affiliations have added to CRT as they recognized, you know, whatever shortcomings that are stated with the theory. And so there's sort of CRT in a nutshell. Eva 3:33 Thank you, Catherine. Maria, do you guys want to add something, I feel like it may Cathery Yeh 3:39 be helpful for us to for our audience and email some of the key tenants, we articulate them further in our articles, but we're building off, other scholars work and for us, we see it as five tenants. One we acknowledge the centrality of permanence or race and racism. It's not about individual folks being racist. It's about we function and live in a system where racism is endemic and permanence. And we are all part of it and have to be aware of that to counter it to recognizing intersectionality that race intersects with other forms of subordination, class, gender, sexual orientation, three, the importance of legitimizing experiential knowledge through counter stories, I found that to be transformative for myself, to see that our voices matter and that if we want to look beyond whiteness, the best way to do so are those that are most impacted. And that is very important to that work, interdisciplinary perspectives and then having a commitment to social justice. It is not enough for us to call things out we need to take actions once we know we should do better. Maria Zavala 4:46 Well, and I suppose if we had an unwritten sixth tenant, it would be that there's no use burying your head in the sand right and that it's important to talk about and acknowledge the proposal ideas and the tenants clearly. So by its very existence in some ways critical race theory is saying, No, we have to talk about race. And we have to talk about racialization is intersection with, like Catherine mentioned, other forms of oppression and subordination. And we have to be able to understand how these things all work. So that we can honestly just make the world a better place is basically what it comes down to. So I see it very much as as that as giving us a way to really bring these ideas to the surface and really talk about them. And I learned personally through going to the I'll make a quick plug for the critical race theory summer school. That is, I'll look up the link real quick. To me, that was a really transformative experience to even just do last year, you know, when I thought I had already begun my journey of learning about and understanding creative voice theory, there's always more to learn. But they really emphasized that that piece of tenant for about being interdisciplinary was fundamentally about situating, where we are in history, and like learning our histories. And I thought that that was a beautiful way to also think about the lifting up that CRT doesn't in some ways of just being like, No, you have to talk about these things you, you have to reconcile with the past. And you have to know that history to understand where you've where you've come from, Cathery Yeh 6:18 right, I want to uplift what Marty has said around this idea of lifting up. We know at the political landscape right now they're saying, you know, 50% of our states have passed or are trying to pass something that's anti CRT. And they're saying that talking about race and racism perpetuates race and racism. But I want to acknowledge somebody is saying the word lifting up that when we acknowledge what's happened in the past, and how it connects to now the sense of historicity, we're lifting up the lives of those who are central to the US because it's our history too. And it's lifting up who we are, it's from a place of hope and joy. So just want to give extra light to that. So Eva 7:01 before we jump into people's reactions to CRT, I would like to take a minute or more to examine the title. The title really intrigued me from argumentation to truth telling, can you guys explain a little bit of how you chose this title, Maria Zavala 7:22 I can explain what I think we did. So as mathematics educators, there, maybe one way we can say it is like, when you don't pay enough attention to aspects of our work like race and racism, you might find yourself just anchoring yourself in ideas about what maths is that our so called culturally neutral, but aren't really. And we weren't playing around with these ideas of like, what do we really value in math, Ed, and what is a framework like critical race theory really pushing us to understand and potentially value in its place, and something we tend to really value in the mass ed world in particular, has to do with like constructing your arguments, right, like there's a mass practice in states that have taken up Common Core that's like constructing viable arguments and critiquing the reasoning of others. So we put a lot of focus in mathematics on making those good arguments. And so I think we were just playing trying to play with that concept of like, instead of trying to argue your way towards something, what if we shifted the focus a little toward ensuring that what we're really trying to talk about and argue for is really about truth, truth telling, and who gets to engage in it? Yeah. So that's what I remember. Just three, Chris to elaborate. Cathery Yeh 8:39 I can honestly say that building on what was shared, we were grappling with a title for a really long time, because we know titles matter. I feel that math education, we need to be louder about our stance. There's extensive rhetoric and misinformation being spread right now within, within education within the broader school, K through 20. communities. And we wanted to make sure that when we look at broader arguments, some things like what Medea said, shouldn't be an argument. Some things are truths. So can we provide some clarity on things that are being shared out? But there isn't a place for us to think about where research tells the truth? Right? And that was part of our goal, what are the common arguments dents being made, that denies our teachers and our students to be fully seen, and to have the resources to engage in critically around these topics that are impacting their immediate lives? And can we name them? And can we think about how research and our lived experiences can help inform that? Christopher Jett 9:39 Oh, the truth telling aspect of the title sort of resonated the most because since this piece has been published, I mean, mathematics education, in particular, has been quote, unquote, attacked from these from the CRT folks. And so what's to say folks who are anti CRT and so it is a time for us to be bold in our stance essays and make these, you know, unique contributions to math education. Eva 10:03 I'm just in love with that title because I feel like if you look at NCTM, or common core, the pinnacle of math education is justification and generalization. So argumentation kind of pulls that together. And I love this shifting from let's not look at those isolated math pieces, but bring in the truth telling I love. I'm just in love with that title. Let's talk a little bit about Chris, you just told us that there there is a tax. And I think as a field, we're actually not in agreement, either. So there is like conversations within the field. Why are people against or afraid of CRT? Christopher Jett 10:50 Maybe I can start here. I think folks are free of CRT because folks are afraid to confront the truth about what happened in our nation's history. I think another reason why is that, you know, folks, folks are just focus on it's not fully informed about what CRT is. And so sometimes I think that these sound bites can really magnify people's lack of knowledge concerning these things. I think there's Maria Zavala 11:18 been some really good spec, not just speculation, but like also examination of the issue by quite a few different media outlets that ask the question, like, why is CRT even in the media? What's going on? Why do we have parents showing up at school board meetings, condemning CRT and ensuring it's not being taught in their kids schools? And so there's some really wonderful media analyses. What I found myself thinking of, though, is that when it comes to mathematics, education, there's a there's one notion that it's a distraction from the real mathematics. Like if we're really trying to ensure that we're addressing every child's learning that we should be really just focused on the math. And I think that that has been in the playbook for a long time. It's the same kind of attack. You heard when people use the word social justice, math, right? Like, it was the rallying cry of the those who were resisting the implementation of what was seen as curriculum that was too progressive, if you remember, like math wars, and the where's the math people? So I think that in some ways, in the mathematics education world that is seen as like yet another thing getting in the way of some people's idea of how we really achieve equity or parity in math education, right? So it's very, if your orientation to a concept is just to dismiss it outright, there's kind of nowhere no way we can really talk about it. But if if we can explore a little with some people about like, okay, so how did you land in that position? Why is it CRT in particular, that you're like, This is just a distraction, and we need to focus on the whatever, as you do that digging in, I think you find that like, there's, there's actually less to be afraid of, but that does take some willingness to engage and work together to try to understand different perspectives. Cathery Yeh 13:10 We thought a lot about this. I've my family go to a lot of board meetings, we went to a State Board of Education meeting for Texas recently in sat for 10 hours. People are against CRT because it's connected to why CRT is needed. We know that race and racism is endemic, it's an everything. So I don't think we've I think Christopher's money as work are so important to naming out in distinct ways. And many of our colleagues in the field, who use CRT as a theoretical methodological framework, we need to name out how this occurs. And for us, like it's brown in everything, it's grounded in what we consider math, it's grounded in concerns or what we consider excellence. And thinking about myself as an Asian American, how many Asian Americans took parts and their anger against the DEA tracking movement in San Francisco Unified and was part of I wouldn't be harsh, and using the term we were used as pawns to get some board members recalled, because of this idea that to be excellent in mathematics, you want to be tracked, you want to position yourself as close to what whiteness and excellence means. So to challenge something that that's all that we know. And we've considered normative is really hard because we don't even know it was political, or it's grounded in whiteness, because we've that's all we've ever known. It's been normative. So unless we use CRT as a theoretical lens to be able to name that out, of course, we're scared. Even when it hurts us. We keep making that choice. How much how often do we stay in a space that is toxic? Because that's all we know, right? Eva 14:49 Yeah, I agree with that. Looking at my own history and learning struggling to understand what whiteness actually means and how It manifests in a classroom or in the world. And so that's why I personally think this article is so, so very important. And we're gonna get into your stories in a little bit that I'm hoping will help us understand better how this plays out. But before we jump into your stories, let's get to a question. I don't know if this is answerable or not. But the question is, what is CRT not? Maria Zavala 15:32 I mean, in my opinion, and perhaps this is just me, it's not a threat to the safety of children. And I think that that's what it's been positioned as. And it's ultimately also not a threat to what it means to be a good parent, I've been thinking about this a lot, too, is our discourses of being a good parent are also steeped in whiteness, right? And a lot of pressure is put on, if you are a good parent, then you are advocating for your child at every turn to have what they deserve. And we aren't necessarily supported to think collectively about what all our children together, need and deserve. So part of me also feels like it has felt like something that attacks the very way you're supposed to parent your child because it calls into question things like tracking, you know, ultimately, we could we could connect some dots and be like, well, tracking as a racist practice, critical race theory could help us better understand what we mean by that. And so if you're like, but my child needs AP calculus as a junior, and that is inextricably linked for you to what it means to advocate for your child, you know, then you might be like, well, this is a threat. And so I think that it like those kinds of dimensions, I think have to be acknowledged that there are real fears behind this. But I think what Caffrey is also talking about is like, it's a privilege to be able to have certain kinds of resistance, right? It's a privilege to be like, Well, I'm already working in this system. So it's a privilege to then be able to say, like, I don't need CRT in my life in some ways. But something else we do point out in the article is like critical race theory is one framework. One way you can engage in these ideas, but you know, some scholars or some academics, like that's not they're saying, but they're still doing critical work. So that's the other thing to remember. It's like, it's not the only way that you have conversations about race and racism. Christopher Jett 17:27 My point, so it goes at the similar point. I think another thing that is not it's not a divisive concept. I know a lot of folks are trying to position it as such. But you know, I think it's very important to just recognize that as well. So important. Yeah, Cathery Yeh 17:42 I was going to say the same thing, that it actually, I would say one of the ways in which white supremacy, culture and logic show up is in division, and what it's done at the national level, but also within our math education system. CRT honors the perspective of intersectionality. And we really think about racist senator, but we had to attend to gender class, every aspect of things. It's highlighting that our lives are interwoven, that what impacts one impacts another, right. And those perspectives remind us that stories are important, each person's story is different. And but no matter what, every little aspect of things, impacts someone else, in some ways. And we situated from that perspective, CRT is not divisive, it is not about folks of color against white folks, or certain folks of color against others. It's really looking at how I believe that idea or liberation are bound up in each other. And I think that's the beauty of it. So what might it mean to develop a math education system that focuses less on separating, and just dreaming about what it means to build in ways that connect and uplift each other as a whole? Eva 18:55 That's really powerful. Thank you so much. Let's share some of your stories. And the reason I'm asking that is because that's part of what you do in the article. But also that is part of how we can learn from each other. So let's maybe go into order of the stories in the article. So I think Chris is first is that correct? Christopher Jett 19:17 Yes, that's That's correct. So a little bit about my story. You know, I typically start a lot of my positionality sections with my college attended an HBCU. And I know HBCUs are receiving a lot of tension attention right now, you know, both from the current administration as well as from the broader society primarily for their academic success. It's a way to give a shout out to HBCUs. And to to really honor the robust SMAD legacy HBCUs I think the Hidden Figures, both the book the book and the movie sort of brought attention, you know, to these black women were educated HBCUs and how it's important to not exclude people's history from Mathematics Education. And so, yeah, I'd start there and also draw my experiences as a black man, of course, you know, both black women and men have a troubled past with, with the United States and black men, in particular with police officers and folks who assume these authority and coordinate for me to do to do that net one more thing and think about how this relates to math education, and how a lot of teachers are, you know, just really now afraid to address issues of race and racism, even within the context of mathematics, because they're afraid of being fired or losing, you know, they left next teaching license, and that sort of thing. And so this political discourse, and these attacks have real implications as it pertains to the black mathematics teacher pipeline, and no pipeline has been critiqued. But we think about the math teacher shortage, and what's going on across the nation in general, as a relates to black mathematics, teachers are causing some teachers to be afraid to tell the truth and to speak up about issues of race, and racism, even like I say, within the context of mathematics, and so the C or the CRT bands are, I mean, they're very serious issue, as we think about promoting equitable spaces in mathematics, as we think about who has access to mathematics, as we think about who wins and who loses respect to the math education. So these are important discussions for us to have. And it's also important for us to act concerning these ideas. Eva 21:30 castlerea Do you wanna share next, first Cathery Yeh 21:33 of all, I want to say, I am thinking back about this, the opportunity to to write this paper, Chris, Medea, how powerful this is because we each come in with our own lived experiences and social identities. And the opportunity to share our stories shows how we are all every one of us are impacted, but also how we're impacted uniquely, collectively and in different ways. I'm just going to read a piece, actually the starting piece of my narrative and explain why I started there. I started with a poem by Nelly Huang. She's a Chinese American, who had written and a set of anthologies that was written in 1981. That's called this bridge Called My Back writings by radical women of color. And Nellie writes, I know now that once I longed to be white, how you ask, let me tell you the weights. I started with that, for many reasons. One, when I think about the importance of critical race theory, it acknowledges that who we are, is situated within others. It honors those who walk before us and those who walk with us, but it also highlights how whiteness impacts folks of color as well, particularly including Asian Americans. As an Asian American, I've been diving deeply into when Asians are mentioned in math, education, and looking at publications and NCTM journals. And recently, I found out there's not one NCTM journal from any of their publications, any of their journals, that is about Asian Americans, and that when Asians are mentioned, it's usually with the term whites, and Asians. So I call that the intentional invisibility, and also visibility when it perpetuates certain stereotypes and myths about what math ed means. And I just want to share in particular, one deep thing for us to think about within math education, there's a perspective that Asian Americans are all successful, and were the model minority. That assumes that 18 million rising of Asian Americans are all the same, that we are a monolith. And it has caused Asian Americans to be pitted against people of color and perpetuate even hate. And I just want to give the origin of the model minority myth because just like what Marty has said, historicity and knowing history matters, the term model minority myth came about from an article that was written in 1966, called success story, Japanese American style, it details the success of Japanese Americans, supposedly that there was successful without any government aid in comparison to African Americans. So that article, and that term was intentionally created to drive a wedge between Asian Americans and other communities color and that claim was that Asian Americans are quiet and complacent and successful. And therefore, if we were to follow that and other folks of color were to follow that they would be successful too. I think about the importance of us realizing how dangerous complacency is, and the need for us to challenge that with second to look more structurally at how complacency actually hurts my own community and other communities of color and just folks in general. Eva 24:49 Thank you. kasseri super powerful, Maria. Maria Zavala 24:53 Right. So for my story, I was thinking a lot about what it means to be a daughter of immigrants. From a Spanish speaking country in South America that it has had its own issues of racism and social stratification, a place where you're looked down upon if you are from the quote unquote country, aka you're more indigenous, and how my parents came from Lima, huge, you know, global city, and were raised certain beliefs about who they were, and how the race of them experience in this country was a shock, like being racialized in the United States. So I grew up learning both about who I was racialized to be in the US and also witnessing my parents experiences as they have their own educational journey here. And my parents are very different in that my mother is much more of a European background, very light skinned, although she's like third or fourth generation Peruvian, you can really see like a distinction in her ability to pass as white in the US until she starts talking. And people hear her accent. And then, you know, she is used to getting complimented on her English, even though she lived in the US now for 41 years. My father was more of a indigenous mixed background, and was shocked when he came here as a neurosurgeon to find the kind of racism he experienced. And although he's no longer with us, one of the things that I find myself thinking about these days is, you know, we moved a lot as a kid. And I didn't necessarily associate that with what my father was going through, and how he wasn't getting opportunities that he thought he deserved in the hospitals he was working in, because he might have patients straight up, say, I don't want to talk to this doctor, I want a real American doctor or things like that. So I grew up in that context. And part of my story, I was reflecting a little bit through snippets of memoir. And so in the article, if readers have access to it, I talked a little bit about two distinct stories growing up one of my sister being called an Eskimo when we were playing on the street, because of her skin and hair coloration. And also the rearing of the model minority myth, again, like in my, in my own life, where I was selected to be in a math competition at a school where I was going that was in a largely Chinese and Chinese American school district here in California, and worry that I wasn't going to be as good as my teammates, because I had been socialized into this idea that they were better at math than I was. And to me, the power of of critical race theory was in fighting it in graduate school, and then being able to make sense of my own experiences and what I was continuously trying to find the vocabulary to express. In grad school, I was fortunate to have an undergraduate experience where fully I get it was my professor. And now we've gone on to, you know, eventually reconnect and do a lot of work together. But she was one of the first people who I encountered in my math degree path, who basically was like, No, you have to talk about this stuff, you have to talk about equity, you have to talk about social justice, you have to figure out why you think that if you just explain things clearly to kids, they'll just do math better, and why that has not worked. So my story is a lot about that grappling with what mine and my family's identities mean in this country and how they're different than how they're socially constructed and other places, and better understanding what it means to call attention to the racialized experiences of our very diverse Latino, Latina, Latinx. Families who strategically we might label with the term Latin x one, we're trying to better unpack their experiences, but who ultimately are incredibly diverse, and yet experienced some really egregious forms of racism in the US, you know, everything from the signs that used to be up saying no Mexicans to lynchings, all those kinds of things are part of the history of how the collective Hispanic pupils have been treated in the US. And I find it very frustrating that often in math education, we reduce the discussions around Latin X students to language needs, as opposed to looking at and more holistically the systemic issues around when you're, when your status may or may not be secure in the US or yes, you have language needs, but you also have other things you need support understanding, or you know, just straight up not recognizing someone's brilliance because they don't yet speak English. You know, so just lots of different aspects to mass education, specifically around that and it's children and families that theoretical orientations like critical race theory and like lads, you know, critical theory have helped me really unpack and make sense of in my own life as well. Eva 29:45 Thank you so much to all three of you for sharing. As I was listening, I was thinking that CRT as a lens to help us understand our own and each other's experience is really powerful. We're full, I'd like to close out, it's really hard to close out, because I will not keep talking to you forever. But we need to start closing out. So I would like to close out by thinking through after listening to this podcast so far or reading the paper, what can or should math teacher educators do? Cathery Yeh 30:23 I'm glad to start. And I think this it's actually the first it's part of our introduction. And I think Chris Christopher had written that it states explicitly as math teacher educators, we cannot continue to narrowly focus on mathematical practices that value argumentation, without a broader analysis that questions for what by whom, and who benefits. I think we can say we agree or disagree with CRT or any theoretical framework. But I think those should be central questions that we think about daily, I think about so much of the work that's happening and how, at times, it feels like equity has become a catchphrase. But I would say that as a field, we often still treat equity as if it's a product we need to give to others. And that in itself needs to be questioned for what by whom, and who benefits. Being with my colleagues and writing this paper are constantly reminded me that each of our communities and all of our communities have rich ways of knowing and being and they should be tapped into their voices and stories listened. And it's not enough just to listen, put them at the table where decisions are made in every way possible from classrooms to peds to organizations. So thank you, Chris, I think you were the ones that wrote those questions. Or Medea? It wasn't me, though. But listening and learning from you all. Yes, yeah. Maria Zavala 31:51 I also think that there's urgency that sometimes comes out as like, okay, so what am I going to do? What am I going to do, and I think we have to be a little bit cautious and balance, the fact that we must take action, to make change to make our math methods or our mass content classes or whatever we're engaged in to make them more relevant, more anti racist spaces. But I just said, coming off of a summer of preparing the first teaching for excellence and equity and mass education, anti racism special issue, we're very excited because we have two volumes coming out. But in reflecting on that process, a little, a lot of the commentary that came from reviewers, and a lot of what I found myself talking with authors about is the need to really dig in to your own understandings, your own perspectives, to be in community with others to have a place to talk through ideas or process and to be willing to get uncomfortable and make mistakes, and then recognize that you're growing and learning. There's a messiness to the self work, that can be really tough. But I think we do have to first say, Okay, how do I understand my experience? How do I understand my experience in relation to this? And that, what is the what is it that I'm really trying to do here? And why do I think that's what I'm trying to do? And what tools do I have to do that? Because to be ready for action, and to be ready for serious action, I think there's there's an educational process and that education doesn't stop. But you do have to be willing to do that work. I think we're very quick to say, What am I going to do for the teachers I'm teaching, but that ability to pause and say, What do I need to understand first to be able to support the teachers entity? And what are ongoing questions? I know, I'm gonna take some action, but what are things I'm still grappling with? Or still doubt, you know, I think we have to really be honest about the work we need to do on ourselves. Christopher Jett 33:53 Yes, I definitely. I definitely agree with everything that's been stated, especially the self, the self reflection, the self work. And that's one of the things that we highlighted in the article was talking about, yes, we're designing our content courses, and our methods, courses, and even our courses for future math education, researchers, I think it's important to dig deeper into some of these conversations, you know, this so that folks are equipped to deal with this in a practice. I think another sort of promising area that we didn't really touch on an article is thinking about like math, professional development, and how we can borrow some of these ideas to enrich math teachers experiences, and you know, whatever press professional development or institutes or whatever the case may be. Eva 34:41 Thank you all three for joining us today gave me a lot to think of, and I hope that listeners as well, Maria Zavala 34:50 hey, thanks so much. Can we also suggest some specific resources and things Eva should be doing here? Should we send some Yes, Eva 34:57 I'll put it into with the podcast. To into denote. Maria Zavala 35:01 Awesome, I just want to say the one thing that I had mentioned earlier was the CRT summer school that is offered by the African American policy forum. They did it online, I believe it continues to be online. And it was a very important experience for me to do last year. And again, it's not purely a mathematics education space, you know what I mean? Like, it's a space where you might feel a little bit on the margins at someone who does math education, but I found it to be a very, just a very anchoring experience for me. So I want to plug that real quick. Eva 35:34 Thank you Christopher Jett 35:36 also plug the appendix at the end of our article, we've included a list, Cathery Yeh 35:42 I'm gonna give a plug in, I'll put it in the chat. It's called Disability Visibility projects, I think it's a, it's actually captures a lot of stories. So building from this idea of the importance of listening to stories of others. I think we in math education, we don't often but if you just close your eyes, and you look at who's in general education and special education, who's in our higher level math classes, racism really shows up in ableism, and math education in our society of broadly, I really appreciate the Disability Visibility projects, and opportunities to learn from the activism of those who are mostly marginalized, just the visibility, visibility is not from the academic field, but from folks who are grassroots organizers trying to create spaces to honor one's wholeness to help each other survive. So that has been a really transformative space for me to learn. So building off my colleagues ideas about self reflection and learning. Maria Zavala 36:38 Thanks for sharing that one. Katherine, I had not heard of this project. Cathery Yeh 36:41 That's why I love working with you all. We share. Christopher Jett 36:45 Yes, Eva 36:46 thank you all three, again for sharing space today, but also writing this article and helping us in the math teacher, educator community to think more thoroughly through the topic. I do strongly believe that we do learn through sharing stories with each other. So again, thank you. Thank you for both the written stories and the stories you shared today. For further information on this topic, you can find the article on the mathematics teacher educator website. This has been your host, Eva Sennheiser. Thank you and goodbye. Adios. Transcribed by https://otter.ai