210 Wilderness === [00:00:00] Alex: It's hard to not think, oh bless, this is all in vain, isn't it? [00:00:10] Ben: Hello, and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 210, dropping on November 21st, 2023. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Ben Smith, and I'm here with my co host, Mike McComb. Hey, Mike. [00:00:23] Mike: Hello! [00:00:24] Ben: In this episode, we'll be attempting to perform an Ireland gut rehab with our special guest, Alex McMillan. Hey, Alex. [00:00:30] Alex: Hi, I'm [00:00:31] Ben: Alex, welcome back to the program. [00:00:33] Alex: glad to be back. It's been too long. [00:00:36] Ben: Yes, it really has been, and it's nice to bring you back in like a full Eurovision context, instead of a partial Eurovision context. [00:00:42] Alex: Yeah, I don't want people to think I'm some sort of half hearted, fair weather Eurovision fan. I'm here in the good times and I'm here in the bad times, and we're going to be talking about a heck of a lot of bad times today. [00:00:54] Mike: Yeah. [00:00:54] Ben: Oh, yeah, no, because last time on the show we talked about the good days of Mill Street and the Imperial phase, and now here we are just going like, okay, but like, what happened? [00:01:04] Alex: This is analysing the, the Black Box flight recorder. [00:01:09] Ben: Ah, [00:01:10] Welcome back, Alex McMillan! --- [00:01:10] Mike: Well, before, we dive into that, thinking back about the good times, how was your Eurovision 2023? [00:01:17] Alex: absolutely incredible. Um, you know, it's been a dream, of mine for a long time to actually get to a Eurovision Song Contest in person. and basically when it became clear that the UK would be hosting on behalf of Ukraine, this year, I was like, okay, hell or high water, I'm making it to this contest. It just so happened that... You know, the two cities that got shortlisted happened to be the two most convenient places for me to get to, from Belfast. Uh, it ended up being in Liverpool, which was great, because that is, a ferry ride away. And, yeah, it was just, oh, so joyous. It was so nice seeing... A city just fully embraced that culture, and especially in the UK, somewhere that, you know, so often gets, slated by its own press for being kind of like an outsider in Eurovision, a black sheep. Uh, it was just so nice to be there, it was incredible. I got to see, the rehearsal for semi final two. in person in the arena, which was, such a wild atmosphere in there. The number of bodies in that room, the number of people hanging on Hannah Waddingham's every word was just incredible. and then we also got to see, uh, the the actual recording of semi final one from the Eurovision, area that they had set up outside of the arena on the big screen. And that was maybe even more special, everyone lying out under the stars, the sun was setting, you're all listening to Cha Cha Cha at the same time, everyone's singing along in this massive outdoor space, that was just incredible. [00:02:44] Ben: the vibe in the Eurovision village was just real special. [00:02:48] Alex: It was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before, and very possibly, uh, since, you know, I've got the bug now, I'm looking, I'm looking at Malmo and I'm like, can I justify the price of this? [00:03:01] Mike: once you get bitten, it's just like, okay, just got to re prioritize things. [00:03:05] Alex: I don't need a house. [00:03:08] Mike: Oh, no, no, no. [00:03:09] Ben: Besides the prospect of Malmo, anything else exciting you for 2024 as we get nearer and nearer to the proper season? [00:03:15] Alex: As someone who, as we have previously discussed, big, uh, American Song Contest fan, I, I can't help but, uh, bear in mind the idea that we were promised, two other contests. Eurovision Canada, and, uh, the Latin American Song Contest, which seem to have gone a little radio silent. Um, so I'm hoping those resurface. [00:03:34] Ben: I just sort of think of it as just like Christopher Bjorkman is just going country to country like Conan O'Brien's monorail salesman and just like selling them on, on what if you did a song contest? [00:03:46] Alex: Opened up his leather jacket to reveal, like, a Petromede, just hanging there. [00:03:50] Ben: Maybe that's why the American Song Contest fails is like Kelly and Snoop were doing their best but we did not have a Petra. [00:03:56] Alex: No one can reach those lofty heights, but I, I personally, obviously won't get to sidetrack to the American Song Contest again, but, like, Snoop and Kelly were their own brand of weird, [00:04:05] Ben: Oh, yeah, no. Like, that was part of the magic for like, Oh, these people are not used to doing live television. [00:04:11] Alex: I think that's why I'm so, like, desperate to see, you know, these new franchises try and bloom, and, like, what weirdness is lying in Canada? What weirdness is lying in Latin America? That we've been missing out on for 50 years. [00:04:25] Mike: There is definitely Canadian weirdness. And now that you bring that up, it's like, ooh, maybe I do want [00:04:30] Ben: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just like, no, I need to see all of, all of the very Canadian content. Just give, give, give me broadcasting mandates, give me the CanCon. [00:04:38] Alex: I want to see the, wannabe bare naked ladies bands I want to see, proto Kylie Rae Jepsens. So I'm really, you know, desperately looking forward to that. I'm excited to see, what the next steps for the UK are. I think that's a big thing that's been on my mind with, obviously, uh, TAP, was it, stepping aside? I think, that has, left a big window of potential for the BBC to, uh, potentially squander, but also potentially do something very special with. And so, uh, hopefully we will see, you know, there's obviously a recharged energy, a passion for it in the UK, the BBC have seen. How important it is to, the UK, the semi finals will be on BBC One from now on, that's a big step up. So yeah, it's exciting to see what they, they do with that, how they try to capitalise on Eurofever. [00:05:30] Ireland --- [00:05:30] Ben: The reason why we are here, Many years ago we tried to, Extreme Home Makeover the Big Five. And checking in, like, they're generally doing pretty well, like, Italy won. That was never a concern, like, they were always doing a very good job. Uh, the UK and Spain had a big the UK did a beautiful job of hosting in 2023, France did pretty well in 2021, and Germany is also here. we're just gonna sweep them under the rug for a second, but also, what are y'all doing? Now just looking to other nations that could use some TLC, Ireland just felt like a really good first choice. There was an imperial phase in the, in the 90s. The acclaim to fame was like, they have won the most times. If you look through all of the Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest year pages on Wikipedia, they all lead with just like, Data won and she was 18, and then like the paragraph has to continue and gets a little update every year? [00:06:20] Alex: it feels quite bizarre to me that culturally in Ireland it became... Sort of a joke as to how good they were at winning, to the point that, you know, it's like, we didn't want to keep winning because we couldn't afford it. [00:06:34] Ben: And now just like that wish has been granted. I'm trying to pinpoint, okay, where does it turn? And like... I don't know, it's been a bumpy road, at least as long as I have been watching the contest, I came in at, like, the tail end of 2008, which was Irlanda Duisbois year. They're trying stuff, but I'm not sure that the right people are behind the trying stuff. Ha [00:06:53] Alex: I think I would agree with you that Irlanda Duispois felt like a big moment of, sort of, surrender. Like, that idea of like, okay, look, we don't know, we don't get it, [00:07:06] Mike: Bye. [00:07:10] Alex: try and make a joke of things. And I remember seeing a video way back when of someone in the Late Late Show audience as Dustin1, and everyone's applauding, everyone's cheering, and the moment the cameras go off you just hear them going, oh Christ. Like the whole room just turns, they're all like, this is dismal. [00:07:31] Mike: Really surprised that Ireland got so sour so quickly with, Dustin the Turkey, they were doing fine up until the semi final era and actually having to qualify into the contest. But even then, They had a couple of automatic entries into, like, following year's contest because relegation was still in effect and they didn't start running into trouble until, well, they missed qualifying in 2005, so, like, that was the first hiccup. And then it was 2008 where, like, everything went off the rails, but, yeah, and it's just been kind of downhill since then. Looking at Ireland's record in the semi final era, it's been a very mixed bag. Ireland auto qualified for 2004, did not qualify in 2005. They had a strong showing in 2006, which gave them an auto qualification in 2007. And then, the following 15 times, they have missed the final 10 of those times. So, like, look left, look right, you're not qualifying. The five times that Ireland did qualify, they were still met with very disappointing results. Like, Niamh Kavanaugh, she came back in 2010, she was part of the 1 2 punch that kept Sweden out, in 2010, but that ended up finishing 23rd. Jedward did fine. Like, Jedward is, like, the exception to probably everything we are going to be saying about Ireland. But then, in 2013, Ryan Dolan, he finished last in the grand final, and then there was that very long dry spell, Some Hope in 2018, that finished mid table, even looking at the semi final results, it's just been bottom of the standings. I would say, unfairly, in a couple of cases, like 2022, uh, with Brooke, like, I I was shocked to see that that tied with Malta in the second semifinal. It's like, no, one of those songs is much better than the other one. So, [00:09:21] Alex: That really feels to me like the big outlier of I will not be able to explain away how because that felt like the perfect storm to me of 2022. [00:09:32] Ben: Brooke was great, like, that was this is what sh you should be sending. [00:09:36] Alex: Especially in 2022 when there was a dearth of upbeat poppy songs, like it was just ballad after ballad, and then people were desperate for something dancey, and then Brooke delivered it and it was just rejected kind of outrightly. That's gonna be a big thing for the powers that be in Ireland to kind of emotionally overcome because if we cannot explain to them why Brooke failed it's gonna be very difficult for them to, I think, infuse themselves to try because it felt like Brooke was Kind of going against the grain as to what was expected from a successful Irish entry. Um, and so for that to fail, your options are, okay, we need to go back to tradition, which hasn't been working, or we need to try something radically different again, and we don't know what that is. [00:10:23] Mike: I think that analysis is spot on. going back to 2005 and seeing how the televote kind of played into results, because we are now in an era where televote is going to decide if you qualify or not. So, It's not been good results, 14th place in 2005, like 2013, I guess, was okay. That was where we had, like, the average ranking system, so we don't actually know how they scored anywhere. But, yeah, I'm just, like, looking through all of this, and, uh, let's see, uh, 2018, they finished in top 10 in the Televote, for their semifinal. 2014, and then 2012 and 2011. and, 2006. Every other one, it's like 14th place, 17th place, 15th place. How do you get the public behind your entry? Because you need that to happen if you're going to succeed. [00:11:14] Alex: I have a very, broad emotional opinion on 2021, because I think that was Uh, a year where it seemed like everything was going right. it was MAPS with Lesley Roy, and you were looking at, uh, you know, the YouTube videos of our top 40 picks, all those various channels on YouTube of people putting the picks together. That was the first time that, with, you know, double digit songs in the running, Ireland was ranking first on those lists. Like, MAPS was a song in the studio version that was... Delivering. That sounded classically Irish in a way that I think people around Europe want from an Irish entry, but it also had some modern, qualities to it. I think it was just a big misfiring on having what I still think is the most ambitious staging anyone has attempted at Eurovision, and Lesley's voice just couldn't keep up with the amount she was having to do. And so, when you've gone from like, okay, we had all the energy behind us, we attempted something massive and it didn't work, it it kind of left them feeling dejected, and then to go from that to Brooke, who had this youthful energy behind her and she was sort of bringing her own song to it, to them fail at the gate again, it's, yeah, it's sort of making me feel like the people shortlisting these songs are kind of seeing the things that should be working. Failing again and again, and in each case it is just for a different, very specific reason. It is because analogue staging like that is extremely difficult to do, or for some reason people in Shirin don't like Brooke Scullion. [00:12:50] Mike: If maps with that staging were done in 2023 and We Are One was their entry in 2021, I think they both would have done better. Than they did in their, uh, actual [00:13:03] Alex: Oh, I 100 percent agree, Mike. I think We Are One was totally out of place, and it was in a year that it was surrounded by better and more different sort of bands. [00:13:16] Ben: Like, my take on We Are One earlier this year is like, oh, this is like the song that opens Eurovision that's the same thing as the theme. Yeah. [00:13:23] Alex: because it's it's coming in and it's essentially just like, oh, this is the slogan from a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah, we know. [00:13:30] Ben: It feels like a slogan song because specifically We Are One was the slogan in 2013. [00:13:35] Mike: They were just predicting the Malmo, uh, hosting for 2024, so... [00:13:40] The Late Late Show Problem --- [00:13:40] Alex: I do think that wild youth was sort of The final symptom, as it were, of what I think is maybe, Ireland's biggest problem in the last few years, and something that I'm hopeful is going to change quite soon, and that is that the Late Late Show studio is a terrible place to do your, show to pick who becomes the, person that will represent Ireland, because it is not made for Staging it is not made for performances as large as Eurovision needs. And while youth were quite lucky because that was a place they played before they knew that studio. [00:14:17] Ben: This was the first time I had watched Eurosong in full and I had not fully understood the full context of... The Late Late Show as selection ground and just like everything that was happening around the performances was just so wild to me But also from like an audio perspective I was like did they did they bring in the people who do the the sound mixing on SNL's musical guests? Cuz like it was just bad [00:14:41] Alex: And it's so bizarre because you, you can see even when we're looking at, Euro song this year, when you see the. VT packages that were made for those acts. When you see the work that has gone in on the graphic side of things, there are clearly people who know what they're doing and are passionate about it. It is just when it comes down to the brass tacks of, okay, now we're going to have you sing and do a dance routine, you know, they're doing it in a space that's equivalent bedsit. It's, it's not made for it and it, it can't carry the audience reaction that it needs, and it means that everything feels a bit muted. It's really difficult to tell which of these acts will translate the best, and I think that is to a degree what killed Midnight Summer Night. I think we could all say in our heart of hearts that that would have delivered massively, in a much larger arena, but in that small room it's difficult to see that. [00:15:41] Ben: Yeah, and then like the the other portion for me about like what's not working about that as a selection method is that When they are bringing in a jury, it is, it feels like it's a bunch of people who are not in step with where Eurovision has gone since Ireland was winning in the 90s. I like, again, just like looking through the history of mentors and people on the jury are people like Linda Martin who, yes, did win for Ireland, but in like 19, 1992. [00:16:06] Mike: Yeah, I mean, when you have every one of Jedward's critiques beginning with, Eurovision has changed, Eurovision has changed, like, they're like, just begging. [00:16:15] Ben: Specifically when like Jedward are the smartest people in the room. [00:16:18] Alex: Something's gone wrong. [00:16:19] Ben: One of my proposed solutions is, like, just put them in charge. I don't care if, they're performing again or, they're just fighting an artist, but they seem to have their finger on the pulse of what's happening in actual Eurovision. [00:16:28] Alex: I'd be so happy with that. Those two back-to-back J years was the perfect marriage of, okay, this has a bit of novelty in the way that it's making people locally who don't care about Eurovision, talk about Eurovision. The only times that really happens are when there is an act that's kind of out there in the Euro song, field. So the, the three big times that's happened are Dustin, the Turkey, um, we all remember how that went. Jed Edward, the first time round. And then last year with Public Image Limited, which was so bizarre, and I I still hold that that was a good move to have them involved. It made people talk about the contest in a way that they weren't otherwise, and obviously due to reasons, uh, beyond the control. If they had qualified, I don't think they would have performed anyway, but it it's safe to say that that is showing people behind the scenes, I think, okay, we need to try something radical. Again, I think all of these things come back to, that studio is a terrible place to do it, because it was, I mean, in their case it was a bad performance, but it was a bad performance heightened by the fact that it was taking place in a room that was not built for it. I was a huge fan of Wild by Leila Jain, and that was the song that I really desperately wanted to be Ireland's representative, but the room killed it. [00:17:46] Mike: Yeah, and also going first, so that like, there was no opportunity to adjust for being like, Oh, yeah, we need to fix the sound here. It's like, Oh, nope, too late for her. Sorry. [00:17:54] Alex: Trying to force a dance routine into it that for, you know, this, this routine is not going to be the routine that appears in the contest in Liverpool, so why do we need to do this? It's not exactly adding a massive level of theatrics, it still looks like this is taking place in an alleyway. [00:18:12] Ben: yeah, like you, there is a sense that like, okay, this is not necessarily the final performance, this is sort of still nascent, still figuring it out, maybe we'll redo the mixing, maybe we'll redo the, the staging, and like, that's working, because like, goodness knows, Malta is currently showing us everybody's rough drafts for, for weeks on end right now. When you're in that studio, amidst all of what else is going on, on the Late Late Show, it's just, it's not the best venue to showcase these songs. [00:18:39] Alex: And I think now that there's been a change of guard with the Lele show, we now have Patrick Kielty as the host, and it does feel like they're trying to shake that show up, I don't necessarily know if it will. Retain its place as like, that is the home of Eurosong. It feels like this is the chance RTE has to try something new, show that they care about the contest. Because ultimately, when we talk about the judging as well, you know, you talk about Linda Martin and stuff. They're always looking back, and they're always looking very pessimistically at things. They're, you know, all the questions, the leading questions that Ryan Tuberty would ask are, Why have we been doing so badly? [00:19:15] Finding the Irish Sound --- [00:19:15] Alex: Much like this, you know. No one's talking optimistically about Ireland, and so it's difficult to give them their dos when someone comes up onto the stage performing for Ireland. It's hard to not think, oh bless, this is all in vain, isn't it? [00:19:30] Mike: And I think also like with with the looking back aspect of it, especially thinking of like the imperial period in the 90s. What was happening in pop music seemed to be aligned with what Ireland was producing, where it was much more, on the acoustic side, much more on the ballad side. And that's just not where pop music is right now. Like right now, it is very heavy production, very heavy I'm not even sure what the opposite of ballad would be in this case, but it's just like it's not it's not emphasizing like beautiful singing voices or like the sort of thing that like Nev Kavanaugh would bring, for example. Like, I don't think that her winning song would do well at Eurovision today. I think if you looked at it on objective measures, it is checking a lot of boxes, but it's just like, nope, that's just not what the zeitgeist is. I mean, I assume there are people in Ireland that are making music that's more in line with the zeitgeist? Is that a fair assumption to make? [00:20:24] Alex: I can confirm there are people in Ireland that are making music that people would like. [00:20:30] Mike: Okay. [00:20:31] Alex: think I think a big part of the remit that RTE brings forward, and we see this in those acts that appear in the shortlisted Five on Eurosong, where it's like, oh, this is an R& B track. But it's got an Irish twist, or this is, this is a dubstep electro pop track. Oh, but it's got an Irish twist. And it's like, those things don't meld, though. Like, the song needs to stand on its own merits. It doesn't need to have a wink and a nod to the fact that we won four times in the 90s and those songs all sounded very Celtic. I look at Cyprus, and that is a country that has found its sort of musical identity in the contest and really stuck to it. You know, they, they have been through lots of different styles, uh, Alter Ego is one of my favorites, but after that point, they're like, okay, Fuego worked. Why did Fuego work? Let's try and use that as our guiding light going forwards. And I think Ireland is just sort of struggling, trying to figure out, okay, if our vibe is not what it was in the 90s, I don't know what it is. And they keep falling into this trap of, we need to retain some of that in a genre that it won't work with. [00:21:47] Ben: With whatever is getting selected, because like, I think in the case of, of Brook, like, that was a massive glow up in terms of the staging, I think of, Ryan Shaughnessy, like, who has been very vocal about the level of what he needed to push back on and what he took into his own hands in terms of the staging. To make sure that things were presented correctly, like, when they did get to the big stage, and like, he qualified. [00:22:10] Alex: Was there a cake originally in my memory [00:22:11] Ben: Yeah, like, that's the, that's, that's the one thing I remember, it's just like, they wanted to have like, somebody leaping out of a cake or whatever. [00:22:18] Mike: Like, I don't know where that would fit in at all. [00:22:21] Alex: Like, it's the pianist who bursts out and then walks over to the piano. So, [00:22:28] Mike: I was also looking at the, chart records and they're not strong chart performers. Like, a couple of the selections have not charted at all. This year's entry, peaked at 93. Brooke peaked at 54. And this is, the Irish singles chart, so it's like, okay, if it's not resonating with people of Ireland, like, how are people abroad going to rally behind it? [00:22:51] Alex: yeah, it's, it's not in line. With what people are listening to in Ireland and ultimately Again, I don't mean to keep circling back to the Late Late Show. The people who are voting are Late Late Show viewers. They're not people who necessarily watch Eurovision It's a very weird place to sort of pick your pool of potential voters [00:23:13] Mike: Yeah, because I get the sense that it's maybe an older demographic that's watching the show? [00:23:18] Alex: Oh yeah, very much so. Like, Late Late Show is the, uh, I think oldest and longest running chat show in history, and it's got like, this like, really prestigious lineage, but it does feel quite frumpy. It can't help but feel that way when it's been running for, on 60 years. And it's also a really long show, like, for getting through five acts. And getting to the voting phase, it feels like it goes on for ages. [00:23:48] Ben: In terms of other factors, the idea of mentorship is good. I think just because a lot of these are newer artists, are we picking the correct mentors? I keep going back to, like, you talking about, how we keep trying to, mix some level of Irish play or genres that it doesn't work with and just keep thinking about how it's, like, it's like Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, essentially, of just, like, okay, chocolate and peanut butter, great. Chocolate and Marmite, harder sell. [00:24:11] Mike: Yeah. [00:24:12] Alex: We just gotta find the peanut butter. [00:24:15] Mike: Well, I mean, they have that whole giant treasure chest, uh, [00:24:18] Ben: I [00:24:18] Mike: uh... [00:24:19] Ben: hadn't even thought of that when I made that reference. [00:24:22] Mike: With the mentorship, like, when does that relationship even begin? Is it, the night of the show? I don't see where that fits in with the selection process. Or is the mentorship something that ha is part of the prize package and you get mentored after you win Euro song? Like, I, I'm very confused about that piece of it. [00:24:42] Alex: I mean, yeah, it certainly feels like that would be the way that would logistically make sense. Uh, for them, to be like, okay, well, it's you now, so we need to actually care. But up to that point, you know, it's essentially a one in five. it could go to anyone. Um, and so, I don't think they're going to want to sink any costs on, you know, training up people for routines that aren't going to get used. [00:25:07] How to Tweak Ireland's Selection Method --- [00:25:07] Ben: Like, just looking at selection methods, like, it's either been Eurosong or Internal Selection in, the last 15 or so years. And Eurosong has it's flaws, but like, I feel like whoever was doing the internal selecting was not making the right choices either. Like, we did get Orion Shaughnessy out of it, but also everything around it kinda didn't work. [00:25:27] Alex: I think, yeah, it comes down to, either it's that internal selection, or we do Eurosong, where it's five potentially weaker internal selections. The dream would be we have a larger Sanremo or Melodifestivalen, where, you know, we get a lot of acts and we whittle them down. I did watch, TG Cahar's, junior Eurovision selection process because, uh, Brick was on it and I was just flicking through the channels. I must say I almost preferred that. For as, silly and primitive as it was, of just like, okay, the kid gets up, they sing a song, and then the three judges will say, ah, that was brilliant, that was fantastic, they'll give it a score out of ten, and then the winning child goes on to the final week or something, I couldn't necessarily follow it entirely. But it just felt snappier, it felt more in time with, like, how music selection works these days. [00:26:18] Ben: Like, I think that the general structure of what Ireland is trying to do is not bad, because you have... An in studio audience. on some years, you have an international jury. You have a national jury, giving their opinions, and all of them give a number, and we pick something that has the biggest number. Great. If you look at what Finland is doing, they have a small shortlist. They have seven things. They have international juries weighing in. They have televoters. But there's just like, a level of... Preplanning for each of those seven songs. I feel like we're not getting for each of the five songs at Eurosong. [00:26:51] Alex: Absolutely, it's difficult to feel any sort of enthusiasm for it. if, ultimately, of those five, there is still not a track that you really can get behind. And so at that point, I'm getting to choose between five people that aren't gonna qualify. [00:27:08] Mike: there's not a drip that's happening and you're, you're kind of seeing that right now with Spain, where it's like, okay, they announce who the artists are and then a month later they're announcing what the songs are going to be and then a month later, like they may release the music videos. It's not a lengthy process in the sense of it being like a 10 week show or something like that, but there's a little bit of new content being released in a way where people can get excited about it or at least be curious enough to want to learn more about the people that are competing rather than it just being this kind of like drop of Five songs on this show that you may or may not watch, and, some randos who aren't going to be watching Eurovision in May are going to be the ones making the decision, if they even pick up the phone. So, I mean, it could be a case of just like, oh, there's only like a hundred people that are voting? Who knows? So... [00:27:57] Alex: And yeah, I think even that reach is a big problem. Like, uh, a few years back when one of the shortlisted entries was One Night, One Kiss, One Promise, a song I really enjoyed, that was not on Spotify. I still think it is not on Spotify. I can't listen to it. And so if you're missing that for one of the five songs that will potentially go on to represent your nation in the biggest singing competition in the world, it doesn't hold out a lot of faith that you care about the process to begin with. [00:28:25] Mike: And I think that kind of goes back to the, please put Jedward in charge piece of it, because it's just like, they're at least on social media. Like, they know how TikTok works, that sort of thing. [00:28:34] Alex: totally get [00:28:35] Mike: Yeah, and I don't get the sense from anybody else that's in charge of Eurosong that there's much of a social media or connecting with the audience. Uh, or like that two way connection with the audience. Uh, it feels still very one way, broadcast only connection. [00:28:54] Alex: And it's, it's difficult to argue against that as well, because it's like, it's not like they could break it anymore. Like, the idea of putting Gembride in charge, I love, but if you were someone who thought, oh, well they're not gonna know what they're doing, it's like, okay, and then how is that worse? Oh, do we somehow not qualify for the semis now? [00:29:10] Mike: Yeah. I think what I'm hearing from that is perhaps Dustin the Turkey be vice chair? [00:29:20] Alex: I just, I think when you look at like, Public Image Limited, that is a sign of, okay. This isn't gonna work, but we are we are looking at potentially huge, weird ideas. We're looking at, like, we are at the bottom, what can we do that is gonna turn us from zero to hero? This is this is not it, but this is the start of, like, looking for those ideas. [00:29:44] Who Should Represent Ireland at Eurovision? --- [00:29:44] Ben: I feel like a lot of what has been sent recently from Ireland has been trying to please everybody in the room, which is not necessarily how you get votes. 'cause like if you look at what, what was doing well at Eurovision this year, KA is not gonna be it to everyone's taste. It is big, it is loud and like it could, like it felt very much like this is either gonna do great, or this is just gonna, like, completely crater. There should be bigger, weirder risks. Like, what's the worst that can happen? Not qualifying? Great news. We've already done that. A lot. [00:30:13] Alex: ultimately, when this drought does end, whenever that is, the thing that causes the drought to end isn't gonna sound like anything that has succeeded for Ireland in the past. you look at, something like Wild Youth, I don't mean to keep ragging on them, but yeah, if you're everyone's tenth favourite song, you get nowhere. Uh, we need something that's inherently quite divisive. And, it sort of feels like, as you're saying, Mike, you need someone like Gembard in charge who's willing to present you with five super weird options. Because at least then, something radical is gonna get through. [00:30:51] Ben: That is, one of my hopes for 2024 is everybody going, Okay, well, we don't have a Loreen. What is our Karia? What is our weird little guy? If everybody sends their weird little guy to Eurovision next year, I will be so delighted. [00:31:02] Alex: My sort of outside unorthodox thought is I think that Ireland should adopt the San Marino strategy of, okay, let's just be the all stars. [00:31:12] Ben: Just, yeah, just make it, just make it, like, jury duty. Just, like, everybody show up, take a number, sing your song. [00:31:17] Mike: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. Like I keep thinking about San Marino and how it really is similar to Ireland in a lot of ways, where it's just like, it's kind of in the shadow of a, like, I, I feel like Ireland is in the shadow of the UK, even though UK also is not doing well, but like San Marino's in the shadow of Italy. And you're thinking, it's like, Oh, well, Italy's doing great. San Marino must also be fantastic. And she's like, well, no. And as we were just talking, I was thinking, Ireland should get Achille Laro and do something with him. And I think that would be so off the wall and like beneficial for everybody. Like, I think Achille Laro would be absolutely game for that. [00:31:56] Alex: Broaden let's go further than that. Let's say, okay, you know, 2020, for we'll get a flower on. 2025, let's get Daddy Freya in. He's not doing much else at the moment, and we know he's we know he's a done deal, we know people like him. [00:32:09] Ben: Just like, okay, there was an Irish songwriter in the mix, but like, we have selected Dathi Frere. [00:32:14] Alex: Yeah, there's something to be said for San Marino had a moment with Flowrider. that may not have Done well on the scoreboard, but people were talking about it. that was a story. And I do think that is the path that RTE is looking to go down. Um, they want something that's like, Wait, who's performing? And I don't know who that is. It's clearly not Public Image Limited. But I, I foresee that is the thing that's gonna happen. We're gonna see, uh, next year's shortlist, we're gonna get five acts. One of them is gonna be just... Someone you've heard of, and you didn't expect them to show up, they will perform well enough to qualify, and that'll be the throw of the dice for 2024. [00:33:00] Ben: it's not a terrible strategy to go, okay, who was our biggest pop star? Cause like, Slovenia did that. Slovenia was like, you know who's hot right now? Joker out. We have convinced them to write a song for us. People got on board with that, and there was like a real sense of energy when you saw them perform. Like, oh, yeah, no, this is gonna be great. [00:33:15] Alex: And I can understand why this is so popular in its home nation. I think of, um, someone like CMAT, who I don't think has CMAT's fantastic. I don't think she's ever been rumoured for Eurovision, but it feels like if I was at RTE, I would be hammering her phone right now. [00:33:32] Ben: Get her on the phone immediately. [00:33:34] Alex: she is someone who is proving that she has international appeal. She's someone who is sort of meeting that criteria of sounding distinctly Irish, but also with a lot of modern qualities to it. Like, honestly, you know, if you're going to take Eurosong away from The Late Late Show, which I think they're going to, You may as well do an internal selection for the gap year, and you may as well Spend all the money you would have spent otherwise on this Euro song, on getting someone worth a damn. [00:34:02] Ben: The second that you said Sima, I'm like, yes! she's popping up on like, my radar, cause like, uh, Stereogum, one of the music websites I check here that has like, a pretty good indie pop sensibility, has been talking about the songs she's been releasing this year, so yeah. [00:34:16] Alex: Maybe the big problem here is that, you know, you take someone like a Seamat, and at the point where they're nascent, uh, you know, it's it's a bit of a fluke if you've heard of them or not. The moment that she starts to prove herself as, oh, she's a big deal, RT are immediately priced out. [00:34:33] Mike: Yeah, and I think that that sort of strategy has been working. Like, I would kind of put Amanda Tenpyard in that category. And I think that was a really good choice for Greece. Should have been a little bit higher on the scoreboard, but that's another thing, but, but yeah, but I, I, I think if you can get somebody who is on the come up, but like just below popular consciousness, maybe like, and like, that is something that's very difficult to grab onto, but like, I mean, I think Maneskin were also in that boat where it's like, they were just on the precipice of crossing over into mainstream and Italy was able to snap them up right at that point. [00:35:10] Alex: Those artists are out there, definitely, like, you know, I'm not necessarily someone who's huge into the Irish music scene, and that includes Northern Ireland as well. But, you know, I know of bands that are massively on the up at the moment, just on the local scene, uh, but they haven't quite reached that point of exploding outwards. People like, uh, Problem Patterns or Beauty Sleep. These are bands that sound totally different from one another, and I think you put them in along with... You know, three other acts into a shortlisting, you're gonna end up with something that has the potential to explode. That is the that is one alternative. The other alternative being get someone you already know is a done deal, like C Mat. I'm a lot more definitive and impassioned about this than I was expecting. Yeah, [00:35:58] Mike: Well, I mean, cause Northern Ireland also gets to participate in the Irish selection, right? Or at least get [00:36:04] Alex: so... [00:36:05] Mike: Yeah. So you have, you have some skin in the game. So [00:36:08] Alex: and and Brooke coming from Derry, you know, she is from north of the border, so and that was kind of a Big moment in, in a sense of, oh, that was, it's nice, we do exist, we're up here. [00:36:18] Mike: yeah. [00:36:18] Alex: Um, yeah, obviously Northern Ireland'sa, bit of a, a problem child in that we've sort of got a bit of interest with the UK entry, a bit of interest with the Irish entry. We're never hosting it either way, so it's no problem to us, but, um, yeah, I definitely got skin in the game with the Irish entry, I feel a lot culturally closer to the Irish entry. I am always waiting to see how the UK entry does and the Irish entry does. It stings when the Irish entry does bad more than it does when the UK entry does bad. [00:36:45] Ben: I'm just, like, getting prepped on my end for the Irish reunification of 2024 that Star Trek The Next Generation promised me. [00:36:51] Alex: It's coming, it's coming. [00:36:53] Mike: May maybe your version will be the catalyst for that. Who knows? [00:36:56] Ben: United [00:36:57] Alex: Oh that's the halftime act! [00:36:58] Mike: Yes. [00:36:59] Alex: That's the halftime act! Ireland has a history of big swings. Stuff like Mill Street, that's a really weird thing that happened. But it shows there is a, an attitude from certain people here of, Okay, you know what, no one's done this before, let's try that. And it's probably just a change of the guard is needed at the top, and I'm imagining you would see the effects quite quickly. We're a nation that has not found our sound, and once we find our sound, we'll be fine. My hope is that... The thing that was keeping Ireland stuck in the past was, well, we have the most wins, and we've got the only two time winner. Both of those things no longer are solely ours, so we have now had the fire litter under us to try and reclaim that title. I was thrilled when Sweden won, exclusively because it meant we lost that record. And we couldn't just rest on our laurels anymore, we had to be hungry for it again. [00:38:01] Mike: That could turn things around. I mean, that worked for the UK in 2022. So it could, it could be Ireland's turn next. [00:38:08] Alex: We've been knocked down really hard, okay? That's this is now it's the time to get back up. [00:38:13] Mike: Exactly. Well, Alex, thank you so much for joining us for this discussion and providing color on what is happening with Ireland, because I think if we were just doing this from our own, like, distant outsider perspective, it might have been grimmer. I don't know. [00:38:29] Ben: yeah, yeah. [00:38:29] Alex: Heheheheh. If such a thing is possible. It was fantastic, thank you so much for having me both again. [00:38:35] Mike: that you'd like to plug or point our listeners to? [00:38:39] Alex: you can follow me on, uh, whatever Twitter is called at this point in time when this releases. I'm undeniably Alex, uh, you can also follow my, drag alter ego Kaylee Ray, that is C E I L I R A E, uh, she is funnier than me, and posts less frequently, which might be of interest to you. [00:38:58] Mike: we will have links to all of that in our show notes. [00:39:01] Ben: Yes, uh, and that's gonna do it for this episode of the Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat Podcast is hosted by Ben Smith, that's me, and Mike McComb. [00:39:09] Mike: That's me. Check out our bonus episodes and help support the podcast by visiting our Patreon at patreon. com slash eurowhat. [00:39:17] Ben: Free access to our full archive of more than 200 episodes going all the way back to the 2018 contest can be found on our website at Eurowhat. com. [00:39:25] Mike: Next time on the Eurowhat, we have our first song, and it's been out for a month? Let's play catch up with Eurovision news.