234 A Lotta Look === [00:00:00] Heather: I like there to be something a little zany because that's, to me, what makes Eurovision the most fun and in a weird way, more accessible. Almost the weirder it is, the more people really want to latch on to it. [00:00:20] Mike: Hello, and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 234, dropping on June 4th, 2024. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Mike McComb, and I'm here with my co host, Ben Smith. Hey, Ben! [00:00:39] Ben: Hey Mike. [00:00:40] Mike: In this episode, we'll be talking about Eurovision, fashion, and stagewear, with our special guests from GoFugYourself, Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan. Hello! [00:00:50] Heather: Hello! [00:00:51] Jessica: Hello! [00:00:51] Heather: Thank you for having us. [00:00:53] Mike: Oh, thank you so much for joining us on this. this has been a topic that I've been wanting to dive into, I think, since we started this show in 2018. But this feels like the first year where we've really had the opportunity to, really examine fashion at Eurovision. So, [00:01:08] Heather: Excellent. [00:01:09] Ben: it's been a very maximalist Eurovision year, so a lot of looks to talk about. [00:01:13] Heather: Yes, I think we've got a lot of rich fodder. [00:01:16] Welcome, Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan! --- [00:01:16] Mike: How did each of you get introduced to Eurovision? Heather, why don't we start with you? [00:01:21] Heather: Funnily enough, I think I'm the one that sort of dragged Jessica into it. I grew up in the UK, so I lived there from 1983 to 1990. And I would watch Eurovision over there, and I remember it being a really big deal, like, they would have a thing on, Terry Wogan's, nighttime talk show where they would present all the potential contenders and people would sort of pick their, the UK's entry. and I would watch it, and I remember I was telling my husband, I was like, I'm pretty sure when I was younger, they would get to the national representative and they would read out who they gave every point to, and it really, really dragged on after a while, and so I would record it and kind of fast forward through some of that stuff, but we would get really into it, I vividly remember when the Bobby Sox won in I think 1985, I think they were in Norway, and I watched for sure when Celine Dion won. so it was something that was like a cherished part of my youth, even if I didn't ever really totally connect with any of whatever the political, like, backstories might have been at the time, or the procedures or whatever, it was just this goofy, glorified sort of talent show. When we left, I sort of lost track of it, and then occasionally bits and bobs would drift over from across the pond, like, you know, the existence of Jedward, for example. [00:02:31] Mike: Yes. [00:02:31] Heather: yes, the [00:02:32] Jessica: Inescapable, Jedward. [00:02:34] Heather: chappies from Ireland, yes, um, and so, but I kind of lost track of it, and then when we were working on GoFugYourself, which is our celebrity fashion website, you know, every so often, come May, Getty Images, a folder would pop up, and I, I believe the first year we covered it, as you will probably understand, was when Lordy won, and we were like, oh, these monster men won, that's right, this thing is crazy, and I was like, I feel like we have to start documenting. The weirdness of Eurovision, because people don't know, like, we're missing it, and it's just only grown from there. [00:03:05] Jessica: Yeah, I feel like that's sort of how I came to it. I do vaguely, this, I might honestly, let me preface this by saying I might be making this up. But I think when Heather went on her honeymoon, she came back and she was like, Jessica, we need to talk about Lordi. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Do you remember this at all? [00:03:23] Heather: Mm mm. I don't, but it sounds like something I would say. [00:03:26] Jessica: Yeah, and I don't know if you guys were like bored in Tahiti watching Eurovision and, or like, I don't know what was going on. Anyway, I, but, Lourdes sticks with the person. and so, that was kind of my first, I mean, I'd heard of it because, as an ABBA fan, you kind of know about Eurovision. But then, you know, it really did take me reading all of Heather's recaps of it on the site for me to kind of really get into it. And so I am much newer to it than she is. And, you know, I do think it is definitely taking off in America much more over the last five years. Like, we've definitely got friends who are very into it, who I think five years ago were not paying any attention. I have a, you know, Very good friend who attended Eurovision a couple years ago, which I think five years ago, he would have been like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Um, so yeah, I came to it, you know, word of mouth. Like, she hand sold it to me, the way they say in the booksellers world. She hand sold me Eurovision. [00:04:22] Heather: My work here is done. [00:04:24] Mike: Yes, doing the Lord's work. It was right there, too. [00:04:32] Ben: yeah, like, but no, like, the last five years, like, it's become incredibly easier, just the fact that Peacock is showing it now. And like, you don't have to preface this with, do you know how to use the VPN? [00:04:41] Heather: Yes, and I think it was on Logo maybe for a year or two before that. I can't remember, but obviously Peacock is a bit more widespread. just cause it has NBC's backing. And I love that they have it on there, cause then you can archive it, you can watch it. Cause it is a commitment. the last couple of years I've tried to be a bit better about watching the semifinals and not just waltzing in at the final and, you know, not caring about who got eliminated. And it is, you know, you sit down at, for me it's noon. And it's, it's like, it's three hours that day, it's three hours another day, it's a bunch of hours on the Saturday of the grand final, and you, and it's, a lot, but, especially when you don't have a viewing party, when you are in fact the only person in your house who really cares about it. but I'm sort of enjoying the fact that, yeah, Twitter really does start to light up now, and it's not just tweets from other countries, it's like actual Americans who are like, Oh no, my Eurovision party. I have to start my party. [00:05:26] Mike: The timezone advantage, I think, is the biggest selling point for Eurovision. [00:05:31] Heather: Big time. I mean, when we were watching, and I can't remember exactly what time it was when I, cause I was sort of in and out this year cause I had some family stuff, and just sort of looking at my watch and being like, this is gonna run really late for everybody who's actually over there. Like, I wanted to try to go this year and I'm fortunately, you know, I tried this year and I tried last year and I just couldn't get, I wasn't quick enough. You know, it sold out immediately, but the flights, the hotels, all sold out. But I was like, yeah, no, I would be real tired. I might be too old. LAUGHS [00:05:58] Mike: when it was in Baku back in 2012, like, I think the show because of the time zone, the show has to start 9pm Central European time. I think it started at midnight. And I just think [00:06:08] Jessica: my [00:06:09] Ben: yeah, Yeah, [00:06:11] Mike: I think they were pretty late in the lineup and [00:06:13] Heather: god, the bread baking Russian grannies! You can't do that to them! [00:06:16] Mike: yeah. [00:06:17] Ben: just them and Engelbert Humperdinck. Can you just stick them first? This is They need to go to bed. [00:06:23] Jessica: could take a nap, though. Like, maybe they took a disco nap while the rest of it was [00:06:27] Heather: I feel like, you know, they were making bread, they were ready, they just sort of stayed on a different time zone and for them maybe it was lunchtime. [00:06:38] The Turquoise Carpet --- [00:06:38] Mike: kind of weird about Eurovision is the turquoise carpet, like, opening ceremony piece of it. And, I've followed your coverage of that the last few years, and I guess my question is, can somebody explain it to me? Like, well, like, why is it? It just feels like it's, like, one more thing. [00:06:57] Heather: feel like it's one more thing, and when I was looking at going, I was taking a look at the number of shows that they do, and there's an enormous number of shows they do beyond those three that I just listed. They do a separate jury show before the grand final, so the national juries have actually watched the whole show already before the broadcast even starts. And there's rehearsals, and there's a family show, and there's all of this. So much stuff to do that week, if I had to guess, and I am guessing, I would say it's sort of just like a kickoff party. And it's a way of introducing some of these people. To everyone in a way that maybe they hadn't accessed before like if you've heard the songs, but you've only seen the polished videos It's sort of like you're giving getting a sense of of what the costumes are gonna be because I remember I want to say last Year, I don't want to butcher the band name, but Finland Cha cha cha. They did their whole thing on with like the weird, I keep wanting to call it a human centipede and I don't know what it is, but like the weird like chain of people where he's riding on top of everybody in his jacket. they did that on the turquoise carpet and I was like, okay, I guess spoiler, because that's kind of what they do in the show. But, I'm assuming it's publicity. I'm assuming it's a way of making all of these acts feel more accessible and sort of building rooting value. I don't know, I'm sure they all serve a lot of cocktails and make a lot of memories. [00:08:13] Ben: Yeah, [00:08:13] Jessica: everyone loves a red carpet, right? I do think there are a lot of other events that are not, like, premiere specific or, like, film specific that do kind of do, like, an quote unquote opening ceremony these days. leaving aside the actual obvious Olympic opening ceremonies, but, like, in tennis a lot of times they do stuff like this, like, they'll do a kickoff party or a closing party, and I do think it is, like Heather said, just another way to get press. Like, the more Interesting photos you have out there. The greater likelihood there is that someone at People Magazine is like, Oh God, like I got to post something. Okay, look at this. We're going to cover this Eurovision party. I mean, I just think that like more content is always better for something like this. [00:08:52] Heather: Especially if there are sponsors to please, you know, that's, there's always the, the financial aspect of it. [00:08:56] Mike: That does make a lot of sense. [00:08:58] Ben: the last few years in particular, it feels like it's been like a fun opportunity for the artists to kind of get like one more looking. I'm thinking about like Poland, not this year, but like at last year's Turquoise Carpet in Liverpool where she had like the gigantic green Beba dress of just sort of I'm in on the joke. [00:09:14] Heather: You gotta stand out, right? [00:09:16] Ben: Yeah, or just like thinking about how Windows 95 man and crew arrived this year in like the denim version of the Lady Gaga egg. [00:09:24] Jessica: amazing. Oh my god. Those people's commitment to denim is something that should be saluted, is my feeling. [00:09:29] Heather: know. I know. I [00:09:33] Ben: the Finnish people. That is their brand this year. [00:09:38] Jessica: true. That's fair. [00:09:39] Favorite Looks from Eurovision 2024 --- [00:09:39] Mike: So what were some of your favorite looks from this year's contest? [00:09:43] Heather: got kind of a kick out of Poland. my whole thing for Eurovision outfits is I like them to be weird. Um, I really like them to lean into the camp. I find that, you know, unless your song is just, like, really good and you really do only need to just stand there in a dress with a wind machine and, like, kill it, if you're Adele or whatever, like, great. Go with God. But I feel like I like there to be something a little zany because that's, to me, what makes Eurovision the most fun and in a weird way, more accessible. Like, almost the weirder it is, the more people really want to latch on to it. I was likening it in my head to when I tried to describe, um, The Soap Opera of Passions to people, and you can say what happened on a given three weeks of Passions, like oh well there was the shed and you weren't supposed to know it was in the shed and then Liz lit the hate candles and it was telling her not to look in the shed and the magical candle and you're like well that show sounds amazing and I'm like yeah it kind of was and and like it's it's like that with Eurovision like I want the equivalent of the shed and the hate candles but on Eurovision to like it's I had so much more fun describing Windows 95 Man for example than trying to remember what You know, Ukraine's thing did, I think she was maybe like, looks like she was on a rock or something, like I just couldn't really remember that stuff. And when you have that many acts across the whole thing, you do kind of need a shtick. You need, you need a good song, but you need something that, where, that is really gonna stick on people. Obviously that doesn't always work, but, um, I think for the most part, especially with the importance now of the viewer vote, it really does. So I, I enjoyed Poland, I was sad for her, uh, cause I, her whole chess theme or whatever the heck that was with the, red and the white and the black kings and the towers where she ended up on the tower with the red king, I kind of enjoyed that. obviously Windows 95 man and his heavenly jorts descending from the sky will live, as they say, rent free in my head forever. Bambi Thug and the demon doing ballet. that was pretty cool. Um, I'm trying to remember if there were any other, like, more straightforward outfits that were just good outfits, and probably not. I, Baby Lasagna was pretty good. I liked his sleeves. And I thought that was a good example of someone who wore something noteworthy and a little unusual, but not in a way that totally stepped all over whatever the, fun of the song. Because I think what was really working for them with that song was how catchy the refrain was and how they had a lot of social media. Play with people sort of reciting it and doing the dance. They did a video outside the American Embassy in Croatia, I think, where they were all doing the song and the dance. So I thought he kind of threaded that needle pretty well. [00:12:03] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, my feeling always is, and again, I'm coming to this much more recently, I sort of feel like in an ideal world, Eurovision costumes would sort of be related to, an ideal word for me, would kind of be like, do you guys ever watch Miss Universe? So, you know, there's the parade of nations and the women show up and they have to dress like their most, like, iconic national item. So, like, Miss America, shows up in, you know, it's sparkly, uh, Statue of Liberty. there's something about it where I'm like, look, I have so many references here. Like, sometimes you guys look like figure skaters. Sometimes, uh, you, like Bambi Thug looks like micellate paralysis demon, and that's cool. That's like a real take. there is something about it where like Croatia was wearing, it was partially like a Costume that's like culturally significant, right? I kind of like the idea of taking something that feels I mean, I guess what I'm saying is I kind of wish more people like leaned into their country and just really blinged it out for the people they're representing like [00:13:02] Heather: Yeah. [00:13:03] Jessica: the British guys I felt looked very dull In fact, one of my very good British friends texted me and all it says was I don't support The UK. Like, that's all it said right now. And I'm like, you guys, you have a lot, like, show up in a sparkly Union Jack, wear, um, Ginger Spice's iconic Union Jack mini dresses, like, let's get, go for it. Like, I think there's so many opportunities here and so many people do take them, which I appreciate, but I think it could be even bigger. That's what I, that's my take. [00:13:33] Heather: And that one made no sense to me because it just looked, the whole thing just looked sort of dirty. [00:13:36] Jessica: are you [00:13:37] Heather: they were in a dirty bathroom and they were dressed as boxers and then he had a, I don't know, that didn't work for me at all. I liked Armenia. I thought Armenia did a good job of what Jessica was talking about, where they kind of leaned into something that was culturally significant for them, and I thought that the song was fun, like, There is an element to Eurovision that's really fun when they're not all singing in English, and you kind of want them to you kind of want to learn something, you want to feel like that you're you are actually watching and enjoying something that isn't exactly like you could get if you turned on XM radio. which is interesting because obviously some of these songs do make their way onto XM radio. I always give a couple extra points in my heart to the ones who, like, the Russian grannies, you [00:14:14] Jessica: Yeah, that was great, and I realize you asked us favorite outfits And I just immediately started complaining and giving notes about something But I will say yeah, [00:14:25] Mike: It's what we do too. [00:14:26] Jessica: all right good, so we're all in a good fun But I did love Windows 95 man like Use of that iconic, logo that I feel like I, I mean, I have a Mac. I haven't seen that logo in 25 years, it feels like. But so, I was like, this is, not to sound like my grandma, a hoot. It was a hoot. It's so funny to me. It's like, so ridiculous. It's, it's, it's, creative. It's also like, in a sense, not all of it, obviously, but like the shirt, his t shirt is so banal. It's like, beautifully banal. It's so funny. Like, I just think it's, you're gonna remember that. Like, I think that is one of the The performances where, like Heather was talking about, if you had to describe Eurovision, what Eurovision was this year, you would, you would talk about that entire experience, like you would be like, okay, let me tell you what happened here. Let me tell you what this guy was wearing. Um, and that I think is to be, uh, applauded. [00:15:18] Heather: The holy jorts. Um. [00:15:21] Ben: I do like the idea, like, at least for, like, the little flag parade that they've had, they've been opening the show with, is like, it should be like a moment, like, when all the athletes enter during the Olympics, of just, like, you are dressed like your flag or like a national symbol or something. [00:15:32] Jessica: Let's do it. Let's more. I know people rarely say Eurovision needs to be more, but I say more. [00:15:38] Heather: More. I'm always complaining about that. I'm like, I want more actual fire. Mm hmm. That's like actually it begins and ends with more actual fire. [00:15:45] Ben: if nothing else, just like a standard flag size for every participant [00:15:48] Jessica: Yes, also. [00:15:50] Ben: Olly Alexander walking out there with the largest UK flag we've ever seen. And then, other nations just have like the small one that you can get at like the airport. [00:15:57] Heather: Yeah. [00:15:58] Jessica: I feel like you look to Miss Universe because I think those women get a very big packet that's like, here are your rules. Be very creative, but it has to be within a little subset so this feels organized. [00:16:11] Heather: Yes. Because I think it's it's a song contest, but is it? Like, the visuals and all of the camp to me is so important. And yeah, sure, like, write a good song, but like, you really need I think you really need all these other elements. [00:16:22] Jessica: need more fire. [00:16:23] Heather: remember being really cranky when Duncan Lawrence won with Arcade, because whatever, it's a good song, but if I remember correctly he did very little on stage and I sort of was touchy about that because I felt like he didn't, he didn't come correct, he didn't do his homework, but what do I know because that song is everywhere now, and interestingly enough you hear it all over the place and I don't think people know it's a Eurovision song, they just think it's a pop song, um, but I was really sort of disappointed, I felt like that didn't, that shouldn't have counted. You [00:16:52] Less Successful Eurovision 2024 Looks --- [00:16:52] Ben: We've talked about looks that we enjoyed this year. were there any looks from this year in particular that didn't work for you? In that same sort of. Duncanlore is like, no, you guys know where you're at, right? [00:17:02] Heather: Alexander at least tried something, but I think for the most part there were a couple even songs and performances and stuff like I, I came out of the semi finals being a little like is this a boring year? And then when I watched the grand final I was like oh no this was better than I remembered but for, for whatever reason like I thought Sweden was boring, I thought Germany was boring, and like there were a couple of them that had stuff going on but just it was, it didn't work for me. I thought, um, Oh god, Latvia. He had a great voice, but he just was sort of wearing a suit, if I remember right, and he just, there was like a tube on the stage, and sometimes he walked through it, and you were like, but that's, that's, what is this? And you could tell the crowd was not into it either, they seemed really I've never, I really felt lukewarm when he was done and you don't usually hear that. [00:17:46] Ben: The crowd was going mild during Latvia. Yeah! [00:17:50] Heather: were. [00:17:50] Jessica: It's Eurovision. Why are you wearing a suit? [00:17:53] Heather: And I was like, he's got a beautiful voice, but if you could just do something on that, that's when, that's when you're sort of like, okay, Latvia is just happy to be here, does not want to host next year, more than happy to come in last if need be, like, it's fine. I think he was probably my obvious least favorite just cause I, I thought the whole thing just fell flat. You know, just try something. [00:18:13] Jessica: I can see that. I know you guys love Poland, but I think my note is She looks so much like Lady Gaga to me. And I was like, this is too Lady Gaga. Like, I think you have to either go full Gaga, and I mean, like, spangly, leotard, like, fake horns, like, come in, I mean, someone did come in in an egg, I guess, but like, like, full Gaga, or you need to, like, really fight your own Gaga ness. Like, I was, I'm like, I feel like this is too, it's not her fault that she looks like Lady Gaga, but I think either lean all the way in or lean all the way out. That's kind of my feeling, [00:18:45] Mike: Poland in particular really did feel like it was trying to go both ways on that. I mean, 'cause there were. Ben, you mentioned, like, there were like three costume reveals in the course of the first verse, so. [00:18:56] Heather: yes. Which I appreciate, but I get why it's not everyone's cup of tea. [00:19:00] Ben: Right, but if you're gonna do that, like, space them out throughout the song so we can savor them and appreciate [00:19:04] Jessica: Yes. you need to time this. Like, this seems crazy. You're like, let's pace this. [00:19:09] Heather: It felt like overcompensating for the fact that she didn't really have it with the song itself. And so she's like, I gotta distract people with a lot of stuff. [00:19:16] Jessica: that's where fire comes in, [00:19:18] Heather: That's where fire comes in. You need to hit the balance. Slovenia was another one that was very gaga because she had the super naked catsuit and all the like The writhing people in like flesh tone bodysuits, which felt a little more Gaga y, but somehow, somehow watching it I was like I'm watching an orgy, but I'm bored? [00:19:37] Ben: Yeah. [00:19:37] Heather: like that should not be possible. [00:19:41] Jessica: I feel like the bored orgy vibe sometimes veers a little like, oh, this is like a MTV Music Video Awards performance that somebody got told they had to like tone it down a little bit, you know, where like in rehearsals they were like, uh, I don't know about this. [00:19:58] Heather: And I didn't love Iceland. I didn't love, I'm trying to see who else I, like all the ones from the semi finals that got cut, I feel like Denmark's been kind of blah [00:20:07] Jessica: Denmark, I thought was very boring. Like you could wear that outfit to a wedding. [00:20:11] Heather: Yeah. I was mixed on France. I didn't hate the song, and I thought he sang it pretty well, and I thought the thing where he stepped away from the mic but still sort of projected it to the room, was a good reminder that people can do that. but I don't really remember the out and then at one point he was crawling, and I was like, I don't really understand the story you're telling here at all. And I think they've been so much stronger in previous years that I was like, oh, I really wanted to be there with you, but like, I was a little distracted by the fact that you're just kind of wearing a white I think it was a white mesh shirt or something, and it didn't really I didn't know why he was crawling around in it. Like, if you're gonna do that, wear a catsuit. Um, [00:20:44] Jessica: We're still a bye. [00:20:46] Heather: And obviously, Georgia's song being called Firefighter, I was like, listen. If nothing else, if you're gonna be mediocre, you gotta have some shirtless firefighters. Like, let's just go literal. [00:20:56] Jessica: right there. It's in the [00:20:58] Ben: there. It's right [00:20:58] Heather: literal. Yes. Like, you could, the things you could do with hoses. [00:21:02] Jessica: Heather. [00:21:03] Heather: Ah. [00:21:05] Ben: The UK a few years ago sent James Newman with Embers, and there was originally, like, no pyro in that performance. It was just like, what are you doing? [00:21:12] Jessica: It's called embers. Hello! [00:21:13] Ben: so it's like, it's called Firefighter. Where are the firefighters, Noosa? [00:21:17] Heather: Literalism, especially with fire, is welcome at Eurovision. Like, I really feel like it should be a requirement, but you know, what do I know? I've never been, I've never performed at Eurovision, but if I did, I would light that thing aflame. [00:21:29] Jessica: Yes, pyro everywhere. [00:21:31] Heather: Yes. Maybe at the expense of actually singing, I would just go around and [00:21:34] Mike: Yep. [00:21:35] Heather: just be me and a flamethrower. I think I'd win. [00:21:37] Mike: There have been performances that have used that strategy more at the national final level than at Eurovision, [00:21:45] Heather: kind of wish the national finals got a little more, like if Peacock really wanted to lean into this, it would be kind of fun to see like Norway's national, if I think they do a national final, maybe, no they don't all, but I vaguely remember Give That Wolf a Banana had to win a national final and I would have loved to have seen what was [00:22:01] Jessica: that? [00:22:02] Heather: with the wolves, because I think that can also be really informative. [00:22:06] Mike: Yeah, I'm actually kind of surprised that Melfest hasn't been brought over. I mean, granted, it's conducted entirely in Swedish, so maybe that's why Peacock is kind of resistant to it. But, I mean, it's from the same producers who did American Song Contest, so, they have a relationship. [00:22:19] Heather: watch that at all? I really was like, maybe I'll watch it, and I just couldn't do it. I felt like it was kind of like the Great American Baking Show, where I was like, somehow when you bring the thing over and you try to make it about us, it doesn't translate at all. [00:22:31] Ben: we slowly lost our sanity as like two of the only people watching that from front to back. [00:22:36] Jessica: Oh my god, I bet you [00:22:38] Heather: you. Bless you. [00:22:40] Jessica: I do think Americans like with stuff like that, we are very, and I think in all ways, susceptible to the accent. My friend, the one who did not support the UK, my British friend Eliza, she goes, you'd be surprised what I can get away with just with this British accent. I was like, I would not be surprised. I totally believe you. And, um, I think Bake Off is, of course, charming and wonderful, and it's, and it's, and it's right. but I do think for Americans, some of it is like, we just like listening to you guys talk about soggy bottoms or whatever. [00:23:06] Heather: Yeah. And [00:23:07] Jessica: Regular old Americans talk about that, bleh. [00:23:10] Heather: I love seeing sort of the weird things that they, that pass as humor in other countries which like probably are funny but I'm only understanding part of it or you know, I felt sorry for Petra having to do most of it in English even though she speaks good English obviously like it was you know, it's got, it can't be easy to do a show in a language that is not your native language. But I always find all of that stuff and the performers they bring on and that just the sort of sense of humor they bring to it is really interesting. I got a kick out of the whole number in the semifinals that she did about, Why Sweden keeps winning, and it's because they just love Eurovision so much, and it's not their fault, don't be mad at them. I thought that was cute. Um, but yeah, there is something like, I just find it so, so, like, globally informative, and I, I think trying to make it like a domestic thing in the States, like, you just can't, it just can't compare, and it didn't [00:23:55] Jessica: Do we have to take over everything? It's, I guess, let's just pull it together. [00:23:59] Ben: about [00:24:00] Heather: No. [00:24:00] Jessica: mean, I guess so, but no, in this instance, I think let's just, let's just not, you guys. [00:24:06] Heather: Like, Australia getting to join was enough, I think. No. [00:24:08] Jessica: Yeah, we should not be involved. [00:24:10] Heather: Like, who would we even send? Would we cheat and be like, we've got this artist, Kelly Clarkson, like, you might have heard of her. [00:24:18] Jessica: Yeah, would it be like, uh, in the Olympics when we send the dream team and the basketball team just, like, kills everybody? Like, we can't, like, when we send, like, a professional amateur, Kelly Clarkson, like, she came from reality television. Yeah, we can't do [00:24:31] Heather: If we ever tried to do that, I think we would be the new UK. We would be the zero points every time, [00:24:36] Jessica: Yeah, totally, correctly. [00:24:39] Ben: we would not win, we would be mad about it, we would never come back. [00:24:42] Jessica: literally exactly. We, we hate this, we didn't want to do it and we're not doing it again. [00:24:46] Mike: Yeah. [00:24:46] Heather: might vote for us once if they thought that the, we would host it in Las Vegas, I think. [00:24:52] Jessica: That's [00:24:52] Heather: But like, if we didn't, like that's a risk, you take that risk, and if we didn't, I think they would regret it. But otherwise, I think it would literally be like zero points every time. [00:25:00] Jessica: Fair, fair. [00:25:01] Ben: We would try to host it in the sphere. [00:25:03] Heather: Oh! Well, you're onto [00:25:06] Jessica: though. See, this is, this is how we get ourselves in trouble. We're like, this is terrible, we need to step off. And then we're like, oh, okay, except for wait, this, maybe we shouldn't step off. This is a genius idea. [00:25:16] Heather: when Australia someday wins, we can offer a guest host because it's closer? [00:25:20] Mike: Yeah. It's halfway, [00:25:21] Ben: it's, yeah, [00:25:22] Mike: inconvenient for [00:25:23] Ben: yeah, exactly. We can meet in the middle. [00:25:26] Heather: Yeah, it'll be fine, you guys. [00:25:27] Outfit Rehearsals --- [00:25:27] Ben: One thing that I found interesting this year, and like, this mainly comes from being somebody who's paying attention to not just the semi finals, but also the rehearsals, is it felt like nations were trying different outfits, cause like, Italy, what they ended up wearing in their final performance was completely different from what they had been testing out in their rehearsals, and similarly, Nemo, who won this year, had a completely different jacket, [00:25:47] Heather: Oh, and like the furry boots, right? Yeah. [00:25:50] Ben: I like what they ended up with, cause it, it felt a little bit more Muppety in a good way. the other one, I just think of, Chris March on Project Runway trying to do his final collection with, like, the, the stuff that was made out of hair. And there's just something in the back of one's brain that just, when you see a jacket made of hair, it's like, this is wrong, no. [00:26:08] Heather: It's really interesting to think of them having that much backup stuff available to them. I guess that makes sense. I [00:26:13] Jessica: I mean, how much of that do you think is, literally logistical for them, where they'll come off and be like, I felt really uncomfortable in that, I don't think it read well on camera? Like, is it, do you think it's just possible that it's sincerely, like, a dress rehearsal and they realize, I don't think this plays? [00:26:29] Ben: Oh yeah, totally, I think a lot of it is, like, you are building everything up until those two weeks in May when rehearsals kick off, and you wanna see, okay, but like, how does this actually look on camera? We think this is great. Like, once we have this, and all the props, and all the camera angles, and everything else. Does this look good? is this comfortable? Is this or does this work for the performer in the way it needs to work? [00:26:49] Heather: So they need to send you guys to Eurovision, they, the nebulous they, um, to cover all of this stuff because these are the, these are the logistics that people want. [00:26:57] Jessica: Yes. Let's manifest that. [00:26:59] Heather: I agree with you. I liked better what they ended up wearing for the final. [00:27:03] Ben: I kind of like what Angelina Mango, uh, from Italy was doing beforehand, like, all of like, the shiny black, glittery black stuff kind of got lost in their in the stage when it finally got there. versus like the rehearsal outfits were very much like playing on like there was like that crown of thorns almost in the background that and this was really playing on that [00:27:22] Heather: Yeah, I like that better. I don't know, I'm curious as to what the logic was there. Although I have to say, as much as I think her name is fantastic, I don't remember anything about her song at all. So maybe that's also part of it. But maybe, maybe it could have gone differently if they'd made a different choice. [00:27:36] Ben: my galaxy brain there's no actual basis for this is that italy is like does very well, like, having watched Sanremo, they have 26 songs and all of them are fantastic, and I never, I don't know, it's just like, how do you, like, how do you guys actually sort these out? Because these are all great, you have like 10 different options. [00:27:51] Heather: Mm hmm. [00:27:54] Ben: when Italy got out of the way and just let them perform, and there are many years where, like, they will put a little bit too much stuff in the staging, or just have things that feel like a little bit off, where I'm just like, oh, I wonder if they're just like, we want to do well, because we, we have a Legacy of doing well, but we don't want to win, so like, let's just, let's swap the outfits out for a bit. [00:28:13] Heather: I'm always sort of surprised when one of the automatic entry countries wins. Um, because I think there's some resentment about the fact that there are countries that don't have to compete in the semifinals in a real way. but Italy seems to do pretty well with that. And yeah, I think there's always got to be something in the calculus that's like, well, we don't want to host it again. Apparently Ireland doesn't feel that way, but, or maybe they did. And they were like, we gave you Jedward again. You [00:28:34] Mike: Yeah. [00:28:35] Heather: Um, how much more Jedward do you want? Um, but I think, I think that has to play into it a little bit. Like there just, there's no way that. A country can afford to do this that many times unless they're maybe Italy. So, yeah, you probably do want to pair it, but wouldn't you feel terrible if you were Angelina Mango and you were like, and you're like, oh, I'm the one they're sending because they don't want to win. It's like the movie, the Eurovision movie. she's fire saga. [00:28:56] Ben: Yeah. Another one where, again, there's like, no real proof of this, but like, one thing that I feel like was nice to see this year in response to Karya doing really well and having like, a very strong visual statement is that it feels like the quality of like, the men's stagewear this year, there's actual interesting stuff happening. Like, yes, we did have Latvia. You know, doing like the, the all blue, but you also had the Netherlands, with the extended shoulders. You had, you had Azerbaijan trying with, uh, with their outfits. [00:29:30] Heather: you did. And I think some of the credit for that probably also goes to Maneskin just because They were so memorable. but I agree. It wasn't just, it wasn't just Duncan Lawrence or, you know, Victor Krohn or whatever just coming out in like a suit and staring into the camera. Um, and I thought Croatia did probably the best job of that for me. I just, I thought I was really pulling for them, I gotta say. [00:29:49] Ben: Oh yeah, [00:29:49] Heather: I really, [00:29:50] Ben: just, like we, like we'd said earlier, just like taking national dress and making it very rock and roll, just like nailed the brief. [00:29:59] Heather: I think they took a good lesson from last year's Croatian act, Let 3, which I have a real soft spot for and it does come up on my playlist in my car sometimes, even though. I had to translate it to understand half of what they were saying and I have to sing it phonetically and it's a mess. Um, but like there was so much going on in that song and in the performance and I think people probably not understanding why all of a sudden they were like TRAKTOR and like where that was coming from. And so I feel like they sort of took the lessons from what I think they probably thought was going to do better because it was so weird. And they're like, okay, let's pair it, they like paired it back in all the right ways, but still it was catchy, and still it was visually interesting, and it had personality, like I thought it was going to be their year. And it almost was. It was for the viewers, for sure. Oh well. Not that I begrudge Switzerland. They were adorable. I'm okay with that. It was a very peppy song. Switzerland is who you vote for when you're like, neutrality wins. Everyone's gonna be chill next year. [00:30:55] Is Eurovision Fashion Second-Tier? --- [00:30:55] Mike: So this is a question, like I wrote it in our show notes, sort of like an SAT prompt, so I apologize. But it was, so just kind of thinking about like how Eurovision music is Not your top tier pop music. Like there's always this kind of like less than aura about it. When it comes to the fashion and costumes at Eurovision, does it also kind of fall into that second tier? Or is Eurovision successful on a fashion level? [00:31:23] Jessica: you can't really compare it to anything else. we write a lot on our day jobs about celebrity, uh, red carpet fashion, and I think Eurovision for me really exists in its own little sphere. I don't think we expect people to show up wearing Balenciaga or whatever. You know what I mean? I think that would be kind of against the vibe. Like, I don't think that's really the ethos of Eurovision. And in a sense it's kind of like, for me, it's more, it's like, this is like performance wear. It is very specific. There's a lot of fire happening, ideally. and so you can't, I mean, I wouldn't call it second tier. I would call it, It's own little silo, like it is its own thing. Like, figure skating costumes are their own thing. You would never compare a figure skater's costume to like something a person would wear to the Oscars. Do you know what I mean? Like, so, and it's not like, it's definitely not, to me, Fashion, capital F Fashion. It's not the Met Gala. It's a whole other, it's its own universe. Would you agree with that, Heather? [00:32:24] Heather: I do, it's what people wear to perform at the Grammys versus what they wear to arrive at the Grammys. And I think that's fine, I think it should be, especially because of some of the things that they have to do. Like, you know, even looking at, um, Switzerland from this year, you know, they were wearing sneakers that looked sort of like 1980s thick athletic sneakers with some flowers stuck to them or whatever, but, you But they had to stand on a satellite dish and like tip forward to, you need some grip. So, you know, all of those decisions have to come into play and, and even changing their costumes at the last minute. The stuff they have to accomplish in them, I mean, there was one year where, oh God, who was it? They had, um, the backup dancers had stretchy jackets or something and they were able to get in a position where they stretched it around the lead singer so it looked like the lead singer was coming in by boat. I want to say that was like 2012 2013, somewhere around there. [00:33:13] Mike: Turkey [00:33:14] Heather: Turkey, thank you. And, and so you're sort of like, these are functional in their own way, rather than fashion. And I think they all have to be that a little bit. And I'm sure there's an element of trying to toe the line. You definitely get some women for sure who come out and it's a sparkly gown. but I, how often do they do well? You know what I mean? Like, how often does that really connect with people in the same way as it does when Kate Miller comes out in a giant gown and you think, well, what's this? And then she starts singing opera and you realize she's on a pole and she's bending back and forth and you just can't see the pole because it's on her skirt. And you're like, now that is a good use of a gown. Or, you know, I think times that they've had long skirts where the person is standing up and the skirt is long and they project stuff on the skirt. Like. All of that stuff to me, the showmanship of it is so much more important than, you know, whether it's on trend or whether it's who made it or any of that stuff. I mean, I do sort of feel like Eurovision costume designers should get their [00:34:06] Jessica: for sure, yes. But it's just its [00:34:08] Heather: a different category. [00:34:10] Jessica: yeah. [00:34:10] Heather: Now, having said that, do I want Law Roach to costume some of Eurovision someday? Maybe. I feel like he's the celebrity stylist out there right now who would have the wildest idea of how to pull that off. But, like, why interfere with a good thing? Most of them kind of are getting it, and I do, again, wonder how much the increasing importance of the viewer vote is gonna be impacting that over time, just in terms of the outlandishness that people go for, because, They just sort of know that people have a natural fondness for that. So you have these national juries who are probably voting based on alliances sometimes, or political feelings sometimes, or maybe for an actual good song that they like, and then you have the people at home who are voting for, you know, who the heck knows. Probably more of them voted for Windows 95 Man than any of the national juries. Um, so I wonder what kind of effect that will have over time on what people are wearing. [00:34:59] Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think that was the most striking thing about this year. I mean, with with Karia's Bolero last year, like really being the icon of last year's contest, and how much that got translated into different looks this year. I think Croatia is a great example of that, like it is the puffy sleeves, but also tying it into that like Rammstein type sound. And yeah, so just reinterpreting on that rather than it just being like dance breaks or ballads versus bangers or something like that. Like it is, it really is focusing more on the, the vision part than the song contest [00:35:37] Heather: Yes, which I think is great. I think, like we've talked about, I think that tends to be the stuff that's the most successful, or at least the most memorable. will that song cross over the way that some of the other ones do? I don't know. I, you know, I, I always come back to the, was it Armenia? I can't remember what year it was. Rosalind, when she had Snap, 1, 2, and like, the first time I heard that on radio, I was like, why do I know this? I know this song. What's it from? And finally, I realized it was from Eurovision. She came in 20th. And I remember her performance because it looked like there was like toilet paper on the walls and I couldn't really figure out why there was she was in a tp'd room, but the song itself just sort of didn't transcend and she was in like baggy pants and whatever like she just sort of looked comfy but you hear it out of that context on the radio and you're like that's a song that's a good song that's catchy that's in my head but it didn't really make it there wasn't enough going on so I guess the fashion part of it is important because there just wasn't enough to latch on to to make people sort of delay their bathroom break. Do you know what I mean? To listen to her. You do have to take a bathroom break. Usually, you do it when the hosts are talking, but sometimes you can't help it. The one that I often feel like is better than people give it credit for, and I, please don't hold me to this because I can't remember what it was this year, is sometimes San Marino is very entertaining and nobody seems to take them seriously. [00:36:49] Jessica: Justice for San Marino. [00:36:50] Heather: And the other one that I think got, I thought got robbed that one year was Malta when it was, Jim Acosta was the song, and I can't remember the woman's name, but she was great. I had a little saxophone and it was really good and it got robbed. I was like, come on, you guys, go to Malta. [00:37:06] Mike: that was actually one that was kind of caught up in the costume indecision piece. I mean, there was a lot of indecision that was happening with rehearsals in that entry, but like, I, I think Destiny had a different outfit at every time that she was on stage because they just could not find the right look. And then, I think what she ended up with was these kind of silver sparkly dangly things that like three other countries also had similar Looks like Cyprus had the same sort of dress. Oh, I know at least one other contestant had the same sort of design idea there and it's like, oh, that's a shame. [00:37:42] Heather: And when I think when you're overthinking it that much when you perform, you start to see that you're seeing the person go through the steps in their head and because it's just that's all they've been thinking about is, am I wearing the right thing? Am I, whatever. And I think that's probably why she didn't win in the end. Because again, when you listen to that song just through your headphones, you're like, this is solid, why didn't this, I mean, I think she still came in like, seventh or something, but I was like, this is, this should have been, this should have done better, why didn't it do better, and it's because, yes, the fashion, the fashion piece and the visual piece, they have to, they have to dovetail on some level, they have to come together, unless you're Duncan Lawrence, in which case, [00:38:12] Mike: Yeah. [00:38:14] Heather: Bitter forever! [00:38:17] Mike: there with ya. I find them terminally boring. [00:38:20] Heather: right? I'm like, fine, it sounds great at the end of an episode of Love Island, but like, whatever. That's all you want. [00:38:26] Mike: is [00:38:27] Jessica: That's a whole other contest, [00:38:29] Mike: Oh man, yeah. [00:38:30] Jessica: Island credit song. [00:38:31] Heather: And interestingly enough, I've heard a couple of them on Love Island, so I'm like, yeah, apparently maybe, maybe the Love Island money is really all they [00:38:37] Jessica: There you go. [00:38:38] Heather: which case, bless you. Just don't take Eurovision with you. We need a campy winner. I think we'll get there. I feel like if Croatia, maybe Croatia will go for three and they'll really like, they'll get it next year. [00:38:49] Mike: Yeah, they are hungry. [00:38:51] Heather: Mm hmm. They want it badly. [00:38:53] Ben: they are, they are overjoyed that they came in second. It's the best they've ever done in the contest. [00:38:58] Heather: my friend, I have a good friend. We text through Eurovision every year and her husband is Croatian. And so I was getting a lot of texts from her in the lead up. She was texting me a lot of stuff from TikTok. And then like on the day of the contest, there was a lot of all caps during me, during the, uh, national jury thing. She was like, Oh my God, she was horrified. And I was like, you know, I feel like the home viewers are going to come through for you. And they almost did, but she was really crushed for a second. So I'm glad to hear that they're happy. They get all the glory. This is kind of like when Sam Ryder won for the UK. You get all the glory, but none of the, none of the bills. [00:39:29] Ben: I mean, in, in the UK's case, they did get the bills as well, [00:39:32] Heather: They did. That's true. But in the immediate, I guess, and I guess that's true because they probably even knew right away like on the night when Ukraine won, they probably knew like, oh yeah, no, it's gonna be us. So I guess that's, that's a fair point. and that was a fun one. Liverpool was a [00:39:44] Ben: Yeah, like, that was, I was, I was there. It was a fantastic week and a half. [00:39:48] Jessica: I bet it [00:39:48] Heather: tried to go for that and I just, I was, I just was always a little bit off. Like, I think there were tickets I found And in the time when I was like, don't buy the ticket until you're sure you can get a flight, and I like, typed in, like, expedi Oh, the ticket's gone. Like, it just couldn't, I couldn't get there. [00:40:02] Ben: Tapping into, like, whatever group of friends knows how to get Taylor Swift tickets, like, that, like, you need that level of organization. [00:40:08] Jessica: That is the same, like, that Venn diagram is a circle for sure. [00:40:11] Ben: Yeah, no, it's just like, okay, person A, you are sitting in this line, person B, you're gonna go for the family show, we're gonna, we're gonna do this. [00:40:18] Heather: Well, I wonder whether they'll have it in Switzerland. Certainly, they've got plenty of choices. Maybe I can, maybe I can get over there. Someday. [00:40:25] Mike: is a wonderful experience. [00:40:27] Heather: can only, it sounds like, I remember, and I remember being really moved by a lot of, I mean obviously the Liverpool one was special because there were a lot of tributes to Ukraine, but I remember I was just as moved as Graham Norton with the silly tear and his silly old eyes as he said when they all did You'll Never Walk Alone and they all came out and I just was sort of like, I'm having a feeling at Eurovision. This is so unusual for me, but like I thought they did a really good job and I thought Sweden did a fun job. Sweden kind of brought it back to just like silliness, I thought, in a way that we needed. I'm curious to see what Switzerland will do. Just get Hannah Waddingham over there, please, because she's really good at it. [00:40:59] Ben: Yeah, she's, she's set a very high bar for, for hosting. [00:41:02] Jessica: very much so. [00:41:03] Heather: Yes, unfortunately Malin Ackerman didn't quite, didn't quite get there. But that's a whole other thing. [00:41:08] Mike: She did improve during the week. was very shaky on her at the beginning of the week. But it's like, okay, she's doing the job. She's earning her paycheck. [00:41:15] Jessica: hard job, too. That job is not easy. [00:41:18] Ben: When Grease hosted, they had Maria Menounos, and you could just see in her eyes, she was just sort of, like, realizing what she had signed up for in real time over the course of the broadcast. Heh [00:41:27] Heather: And I feel like that's kind of what Malin did early on. The one part that I feel like, for example, Maria Menounos would have been better qualified for was when they had her in the green room interviewing people at the night of the grand finale. And I was like, she does not know how to, like, pull. And that's not her fault. [00:41:40] Jessica: That's a hard job, too. That's a very specific skill. [00:41:43] Heather: Yeah, she's not trained for that. Like, she shouldn't have had to do that. And it was weird to me that they didn't find a person in Sweden who could have done that, so that she could have been up there on stage doing, unless that's in Petra's contract, that she's the only one who can talk to the national juries. They should have had her up there, because it's just, and you're talking to people who aren't communicating with you in their first language either, and they're sweaty, and they're They're excited, or they're sad, or they're nervous, or whatever, like, there's so much going on there, you need somebody who can like, tease out a bite, and she couldn't do it, which, again, that's not her job, that's not her life, that's not her life skill. I have a lot of notes and feelings about Eurovision, apparently. They go beyond the clothes! [00:42:20] Mike: well, we'll just have to have you back on the show so that [00:42:23] Heather: Exactly. I need to vent my spleen as much as possible. [00:42:29] Jessica: We covered a lot of ground. [00:42:30] Heather: We really did. We really did. This was delightful. [00:42:33] Jessica: Yeah, this was so fun. [00:42:34] Heather: I'm sorry that we couldn't do it as close to Eurovision because you know when when you're in that week as you well know that week, week and a half it's all you're thinking about and the songs are all that are in your head they're all your earworms and then for me anyway when it's over I make my playlist on my iPhone and that helps but then like after a week I'm like oh it's not again which was that like it's just it it's like it's all I can do and then it's gone and I guess maybe that's age I don't know but it's it's oh [00:43:00] Mike: intense two week period. And like, and we're just watching it like we're not on the stage at all. I cannot imagine what it's like to be on the other side of that. [00:43:10] Heather: god and to have to do the song as many times as they have to do the song. Like, you know they hate this song by the sound. No wonder Laureen did some weirdo remix of Tattoo. I, like, I was so excited because I was like, oh, I was watching with my mom and my husband and I was like, you guys are gonna take her song last year was pretty good, even if it shouldn't have won. I was like, it is a pretty solid song. And she got up there and was like, sitting in the weird, [00:43:30] Jessica: was nuts. [00:43:32] Heather: chair and she's right there. And like, and like, I couldn't even tell at first. I was like, is this that song? And then a couple times I would hear a line from it and I was like, I don't know what she's doing. I feel like she's like hatching from something, but we just can't see it. Like, it was really, really bizarre. [00:43:45] Mike: But Finland hatched better. So, yeah. [00:43:52] Heather: semi final. I was like, alright, if there's bad blood, it's calming down. [00:43:57] Ben: Yeah. Heh heh heh heh heh heh [00:43:59] Mike: Is there anything that you would like to plug? [00:44:02] Jessica: If you want to read about celebrity outfits, you can go to our website, gofugyourself. com. That's F U G, like fugly, fug, gotta hit that G. I've been doing that for 20 years, so people are like, what did you just say to me? Um, we have a sub stack that's called Drinks with Broads, on which Heather beautifully covered Eurovision this year, for the first time we did it on the newsletter. So those are kind of our two big projects at the moment. [00:44:29] Heather: I know, and we do have, we've written some books. We have, the most recent novels were The Royal We and The Heir Affair, which are a book and a sequel. which we are very proud of and are available anywhere that sells books, I hope. [00:44:41] Jessica: Yeah, oh my god, tell us if they're not because we're gonna have to make a call. But yes. [00:44:45] Heather: And you can find us at, at FugGirls, again, all the G's in the middle, FugGirls, on the various social media platforms of your choice. [00:44:51] Mike: All right. And that's going to do it for this episode of the Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat podcast is hosted by Mike McComb. That's me and Ben Smith. [00:45:02] Ben: That's me. If you'd like to help support the show and access a ton of bonus content, head over to patreon. com slash eurowhat. [00:45:08] Mike: Free access to our full archive of more than 200 episodes going all the way back to the 2018 contest can be found on our website at Eurowhat. com [00:45:17] Ben: Next time on the Eurowhat, we'll start asking host city when as we check in on Eurovision headlines.