233 Grievance Committee === [00:00:00] Jess: My research since then has kind of expanded. Currently, I'm looking at the dumpster fire. [00:00:23] Ben: Hello and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 233, dropping on May 21st, 2024. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Ben Smith and I'm here with my co host, Mike McComb. Hey Mike! [00:00:35] Mike: Hey, Ben. [00:00:36] Ben: In this episode, we'll be tying up Eurovision loose ends with our special guest from the University of Southern Queensland, Dr. Jess Cardinale. Hey Jess! [00:00:44] Jess: Hi. It's my pleasure to be here with you. I'm really looking forward to it. [00:00:47] Ben: thank you so much for joining us. the last couple weeks have been a lot and you were keeping track of all of the various stories even more so than we were, so I'm very glad that we have you here to chat about these with us. [00:00:59] Mike: yeah. So how, did you get introduced to Eurovision? [00:01:03] Jess: Well, I actually come from an Italian migrant background and one of the big things that we say about Eurovision in Australia is that it's very much tied to our history of post World War II migration because SBS is our multicultural broadcaster and their main job is looking after the multicultural representation in Australia. So I watched it with my family as a kid because we watched a lot of SBS, just as a general rule because it's. It's fantastic TV that comes from all around the world so it really connects you and Eurovision was just one of those things that was part of that, but I did stop watching it for a while as a teenager because I was like too cool for anything like Eurovision, but I picked it up again in my early 20s and the rest is history I think. [00:01:49] Mike: Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So, unfortunately, Australia didn't make it to the grand final this year. how has the vibe been surrounding Eurovision this year? Just kind of given everything that's been going on, in Eurovision sphere. [00:02:04] Jess: It has been a little bit more muted than in other years and you know, part of it is, you know, everything that's going on. For Australia in particular, our participation over the past, I would say the past two years, has been a little bit shaky and that's not any sort of slight on the artists themselves. It's just been about that relationship between broadcasters, which I think is the big theme of everything that's going on at the moment as well. It's always been a little bit uncertain and this year in particular about whether or not Australia was going to participate. certainly when you look at Australian social media, from SBS themselves, it's so quiet until just before something's going to happen. Like they announce an artist or, we're about to start the contest itself. And then they have this flurry of activity and then it's crickets again. I think there's a lot of uncertainty in Australia about whether we are going to continue going with it. And then with everything that's going on at the moment, it's raising so many questions about whether or not this is a valuable thing for Australian broadcasters to be investing in and Australia as an entity as well, because there's a lot of political support for being participants in a song contest like this. [00:03:18] Ben: , with the last week in particular, Mike, I don't know what it's been like for you in Chicago, but like, this story has broken containment of like the normal Eurovision bubble as the Eurovision person at work, at least in the American office, just like, how was, how was the week? And she's like, it was, it was good. [00:03:34] Mike: Yeah. [00:03:34] Ben: but then like last night, met up with some friends from curling. At a a brewery, and the first question they ask me is like, so I heard about this on sports radio, like what happened with the Netherlands? why is this on Boston sports radio? Like how is this enough of a story? Like [00:03:51] Mike: here in Chicago. when I, got back to work on Monday, one of my coworkers asked, oh, how was it? And it took me a minute to find the, uh, the shortest answer of exhausting, where it's just like . It still sounds positive, but it's like I do not have the bandwidth to get into it at this moment. [00:04:10] Ben: it like and like in honesty on my end like I did not ask my Dutch co workers during stand up, just like, Hey! Hey, everybody! How are we feeling? I'm deeply curious, but just like, I'm just, I'm like, Am I ready for this? These are very direct people. [00:04:25] Mike: Yes. but Jess, that was another question that, came to mind. Since, a lot of the delegations that have been coming forward in the past week, have been from countries that, advanced to the grand final. has Electric Fields commented at all about what their experience was like at the contest? [00:04:45] Jess: I have not seen a single word from them. there have been a few posts on social media that are just about the general experience. Uh, but apart from that, there hasn't been any comment, and you know, that does raise questions about the extent to which artists have any latitude to be commenting on anything, and that might vary from country to country, I do wonder whether, There has been a discussion at SBS with Electric Fields, also with Miff and Joel, our commentators, about what's appropriate to be discussing after the fact. So I think there are a lot of NDAs across the board and sort of communication policies. [00:05:30] Mike: that makes a lot of sense. maybe we should start getting into the list of grievances, because we've got a long list. [00:05:36] Ben: because like, it's, like, it was, like, it wasn't a shortlist a week ago, but it's gotten much larger. Like, last count I knew was 17 out of 37 participating countries. [00:05:47] Jess: Yeah. [00:05:51] Mike: yeah, so I guess, uh, Justin, since you're our guest, uh, which one would you like to start with? Uh, [00:05:56] Jess: Goodness, I don't even know where to start. Um, [00:05:59] Ben: We need like, one of those fun, like, spinny [00:06:01] Jess: I think so, because it's just, everything has just been an absolute dumpster fire for the past week, and it's like, well, which piece of burning rubbish will I pull out now? Um, let's just start at the top. [00:06:15] Mike: Yeah. [00:06:18] Grievance: Spain wants Freedom of the Press --- [00:06:18] Ben: Yeah, well, just looking at the top of our list, it wasn't just the artists reporting a, bad vibe behind the scenes, it was also the press. Like, RTVE requested that EBU was ensuring the freedom of the press following harassment of journalists. [00:06:33] Jess: Yeah, and I think that, there's a lot of discussion around the behavior of the press at these sort of events, and Eurovision is such a weird beast, because you've got the press there, and they're kind of roaming around doing things, and then you've got fan press, which, that's the thing that makes Eurovision weird. Eurovision, particularly unusual. I've not seen that at any other kind of event. could you imagine sports where you have fan press as part of that? Like, what? It's a completely different environment. But the funny thing is that from what I can see or what I have heard, it hasn't necessarily been the fan press that's been misbehaving or acting unprofessionally. It's been other members of the press. you know, people who are accredited, who are expected to behave by a certain professional code of conduct. And that, that's troubling when you have, you know, the fan press community going, that's unprofessional to the people who do this as a job. [00:07:31] Mike: mean, that's kind of where my hangup has been, since the 2021 contest, we have had remote access, which is kind of its own weirdness because we're just watching it on video. We don't, it's not quite a two way interaction, [00:07:45] Ben: Yeah, well, like, the first, the first, well, this changed over the years, like, first year that we had it, while you were watching a rehearsal, there was, like, a little chat side thingy that both press and fan press were stepping in, when people were getting out of line, comment was just like, this isn't YouTube, uh, delegations can see this. please, watch what you're saying. And we haven't had that the last couple years, and it's been great. We also have not had rehearsal access, which, honestly, has, I think, is good. That should be space for the artist to actually get a feel for what they're doing, rather than to have, 300 sets of eyes mindlessly speculating about what this means. [00:08:17] Jess: Although I think that some, some delegations have perhaps used that strategically in the past to go okay, we're getting some free feedback from the public, from the fans, and have used that to sort of tweak some of their performances. But, you know, for us watching, it's way more exciting when we haven't seen all of that leaked footage when we don't know what's going to happen in that big, great big, you know, dance break or costume reveal. [00:08:42] Mike: Yeah. as you were saying, it being so weird that there is so much press coverage for this particular event and that it really is for the entirety of the event. Like, I can understand having specific press conferences like they do after the semifinals and at the various allocations. but having Press there the entire time reporting on everything that is happening. It's like, wow, this is a strange evolution that has happened because I can't imagine that was happening, in the pre semi final era where, rehearsals were being covered so breathlessly [00:09:14] Jess: Mm. [00:09:15] Mike: are today. [00:09:15] Jess: a part of that probably has a lot to do with, the kind of communications that we have in place, the rise of social media, all of those things, and also the increasing um, So power, I guess, that we could say that fan communities have because of that kind of telecommunications. And, I haven't seen a study of this and I, you know, I want somebody to do some research on this and dig into why did the EBU decide to give such a, Great big space to, the press and to fans in particular in that space. And how does that affect the way that the contest plays out? Because, you know, part of it is that we are there, we're watching everything, we're commenting on everything. It's just, it's so difficult to sort through all of the information and the misinformation that emerges, particularly in this year's contest. But, you know, like, It's such a decision because then this year, or the past couple of years, it kind of feels like they're regretting that choice, but they don't know how to pull it back. it is really interesting that the Spanish broadcaster did raise that because, like, the sequence of events there, I've been watching this with great fascination because you had the King of Spain gave a little speech where he didn't condemn Israel, but he basically said, you know, What's going on with the violence in Gaza is not great. Then a couple of hours later you've got the video of the Spanish journalist saying, you know, I've been vilified by the Israeli media. And then you had RTVE coming out saying, hey, freedom of the press is limited. And then there was something else that Spain did, I think they've made some sort of comment around, Access to ports or, transportation or something like that for Israel. So when you look at this whole thing contextually, the way that all these Spanish elements have responded to things that are going on that involve, you know, a particular participating country, it's. kind of painting, like I've got a bit of my tinfoil hat on at the moment, but it's painting this really, really interesting picture of where Eurovision and where broadcaster participation in the EBU as a kind of media entity fits into this bigger kind of political picture at the moment. So it's, it's really fascinating to think of that in that kind of bigger context than just, hey, something bad happened at Eurovision and we're a little bit grumpy about it. And [00:11:51] Mike: just a bunch of people singing songs, like the way it has tendrils in everything and there are tendrils grabbing at it. It's like, it is a very weird organism within this very strange ecosystem. [00:12:08] Jess: it's just, it's impossible to extract it from any given thing. And this is, you know, our ongoing debate about, should Eurovision be political? It is utterly impossible to extract it from politics because we're people and we live in society and culture itself comments on all of these things. So how can you say, no, no, no, no, you, you have to sing a song that is. somehow appeals to people, but that doesn't touch upon all of these other things. It's, that's just how the world works. I understand their desire to try and limit the parameters of what that means, but you can't get rid of it completely because it's, it's too embedded into all of these societies and all of these cultures to say, no, this is where the line is. Politics doesn't come into it. Can't help it. But [00:13:06] Mike: but it's not political. but everybody who's competing is under their nation's flag, but it's still not political. It's just like, I, I, it's really hard to have it both ways. So. [00:13:17] Jess: they're trying. [00:13:19] Grievance: The European Union Flag --- [00:13:19] Mike: Yeah, Although, in the execution of that, it's getting weird. Like, I was not expecting the EBU and the European Union to get into a fight. [00:13:29] Jess: Not on my bingo card. [00:13:31] Ben: Nope. [00:13:32] Mike: yeah. So what had happened was there was the flag policy that was implemented for this year's contest, or it's always been Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of their words, just like, okay, the flags that are allowed are of the participating countries, the pride flag, assorted other flags that may not necessarily be enumerated. This year, they were being very strict on enforcement. And unless the flag was listed on whatever, cheat sheet was available, it was not being allowed in the arena. And that included, the EU flag, This year they were just being so zero tolerance about everything that it's just created a bit of a mess and a bit of a PR nightmare for the EBU when they've only had so many PR nightmares this year. [00:14:17] Ben: Yeah, well, I'm just thinking, I was seeing in the lead up to the grand final, reports that people were being asked to not bring in their non binary flags, and then all of a sudden Nemo pops out on stage during the flag parade with the big non binary flag. [00:14:28] Jess: But they even said in the the press conference afterwards that they had to sneak that in. I would hope that, perhaps the security in Sweden were, were better trained, but it may be that the, the Swedish security didn't recognize the non binary flag and thought it was like, Some random microstate or something like that. So that, that is a possibility. However, I would have expected them to at least have a printout that I can have a look and say, okay, that that's okay. the level of scrutiny that was going into this is just utterly extraordinary The artists are reporting that they were patted down before going on the stage. You asked me earlier, the only one thing from the Australian delegation that I've seen was about, the watermelon that Fred Leone painted on his chest before going in, because he had a little bit of extra paint. And the context was that was that they said they were patted down before going on stage to make sure that they didn't have anything they could whip out that was a political statement. So, you know, they were really locking this down to try and make sure that the messages were as controlled as possible. [00:15:35] Ben: In that lockdown, like, I feel that, only prompted further, Explosions, essentially, of just like, because you have Slaman during the family show, during the acapella portion, like, I'm, nope, I'm gonna make a statement. Uh, in all of the chaos between Friday and Saturday, I just remember seeing a report that Angelina Mango was in the press area singing Imagine. in my mind, I'm just like, not now, Angelina Mango, there are, just like, we need another song. That fits the same sort of general bill as Imagine, because like, we trotted out every Olympics. [00:16:04] Jess: But also imagine, you need to remember that Gal Gadot trotted that one out in the middle of the pandemic. It's got, it's got connotations. Oh, that was terrible. [00:16:14] Ben: Again, we need a different song for just like, holding hands, under a rainbow of togetherness. [00:16:19] Jess: And also, you know, I know that the UK and Ukraine tried to do that last year with their kind of their mega mix and the, you know, What is the song that they had? Will you won't be alone when you stand back? I can't remember. [00:16:31] Mike: you'll never walk [00:16:32] Jess: Thank you. Oh, yes. You'll never walk alone. but That can only be used in certain kind of contexts. It doesn't have that same kind of call to a utopia that Imagine has, but the more we use it in particular contexts, the more it gets certain other connotations and it ceases to be valuable or useful. [00:16:52] Ben: I thought that the music curation in Liverpool was so carefully done, and then in Sweden this year, you had during the flag parade, Icona Pops, I love [00:17:00] Jess: my god. [00:17:02] Ben: like, I crashed my car into a bridge, I'm just like, not right now, Eurovision, is this the, the vibe you're going for? Just like, I don't care, I love it? [00:17:10] Jess: Yeah, and I think the timing on that was really, really interesting because Ed and Galan did walk out right as it said, I don't care. So, you know, I don't know whether that's an interesting production choice, whether it was just the accidental timing, but it was certainly something that was picked up on by audiences watching it. So, maybe they could have rethought the inclusion of that particular one, or at that moment. [00:17:40] Ben: There were some entries that had rules and others that had no rules, but Finland was one of the ones that had rules. [00:17:48] Jess: Although I did hear that there was a bit of a costume mishap there. So, [00:17:52] Ben: Yes, oh yeah, no, like the, Wiley's, little mini documentaries, yeah, they had like a fireworks incident with his socks, I believe. [00:17:59] Jess: really? [00:18:00] Ben: Yeah. [00:18:01] Jess: That, that wasn't what I heard. I heard it was more of a Janet Jackson kind of [00:18:05] Ben: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I, yeah, okay, yes, no, I've heard of that, there's supposedly a clip, I don't want to see it, I'm not actively seeking it out, but I've heard there's a clip. [00:18:14] Mike: I am not putting that in the show notes. So [00:18:20] Grievance: Double Standards at Eurovision --- [00:18:20] Jess: I think the point about double standards is probably the vibe. Like, it's not united by music, it's Double standards by music or something. and that's certainly something that each of the delegations seems to have to be, or those that have expressed their displeasure with this year's contest, that they've emphasized there was this feeling of there was a double standard. There was a rule for us and there were rule for others. Uh, and there's also, you know, a rule for the EBU and a rule for the participating broadcasters, a rule for Sweden as producers, and a rule for any other country that produces its, so many double standards across the board depending on what your perspective is. [00:18:59] Mike: I guess that does raise the question, is this year in particular, just so you know, Scandal ridden? Or is this maybe the culmination of the last several years? And if so, what was the starting point of, the grievance train? [00:19:18] Jess: You know, I've been thinking about this and You know, this year has been, I do think it's the culmination of many things, but what we have seen in the past couple of years is that the EBU has definitely shown some favouritism and definitely shown some favouritism. Some double standards around how they apply things like the, you know, the so called politics rule. Uh, and I do think that 2022 is where we'll really start to see those fractures. And I know that in the commentary this year, we're doing a lot of comparison between 2024 and 2022, because both of them involved. You know, significant conflict situations. but certainly when you look back at the 2022 broadcast, artists were being allowed to make political statements. They were still in that sort of peace, peace, love, love vibe, but they were political statements. Things like having the flag of a country that's not your own country on display during your performance is a political statement. I would say it's a fairly benign one, but it still is political. Whereas, this year we had flags being incredibly politicized and limited in terms of what was allowed to be displayed and not displayed. So it made that, that double standard really. Stick out like what's different this year to that year. and then also when you look at 2023 where you've got the UK and Ukraine co hosting, even though it was like, don't mention the war kind of vibe, there was still this sort of strong humanitarian theme. That was trying to highlight the impact of the war on Ukraine without necessarily making any overt state based political statement about it. That's still political, you know, when you're talking about the displacement of a participating country and narrativizing that through song and dance, that's political. And so there was a rule for talking about Ukraine. And then there was a rule for talking about Gaza this year. And that's part of what makes it really stark. And the EBU kind of set themselves up in the past couple of years for this year, because they were letting people break those rules. Artists and delegations were sort of thinking, okay, we can do different things now. And then they come in this year and say, actually, no, you can't. [00:21:51] Mike: that is a good segue into, like, what Slovenia is bringing to the table with their, list of grievances. Because there were a number of countries this past week that, had scheduled meetings with the EBU to discuss, Everything that went on, such as, Portugal, and, the delay in getting their video uploaded, uh, and the concerns, surrounding, the way that Yolanda had her fingernails painted, like, th th this is the sort of weird granularity that is coming up in this [00:22:17] Ben: yeah, just like the, the level of, the, the types of videos that are getting delayed and getting uploaded over Iolanda's fingernails, over uh, Ericsada having a keffiyeh around his wrist that are relatively quiet, relatively benign, they're political statements, but like, they're, they're quiet ones. [00:22:33] Mike: Slovenia is also bringing up just be like, okay, well, we would also like the data on the audience vote and not just the, revised results, like the actual like full vote on that. And then throwing into question, why is there a rest of the world vote when it's not? people who are not actually in the competition that are voting. the use of anti booing technology, the EU flag ban, the level of sponsorship that's now associated with the event and how that may be influencing some of the decision making that's happening behind the scenes. it seems like Slovenia has been keeping a list for a while. [00:23:06] Grievance: Juries and Televoting --- [00:23:06] Jess: Absolutely, I think the rest of the world vote is an interesting one because I think we know the answer to that is it's Well there's two answers. There's the romance and then there's the real one. The romance is that it brings the world together and makes them feel like they're part of this contest and it, you know, gives them a voice and they can participate. That's, that's beautiful. The reality is that it, it makes money because we have to pay for the roads. [00:23:33] Ben: Yeah, if, if you're an American and you are voting 20 times in both these semifinals and the final, hello, that's about 60 Euro, thank you so much. I mean, and that's assuming you're only using one card, because that's what your vote is tied to. It's like, if you wanna pull out a different card, you can go ahead and do that. [00:23:49] Jess: And, you know, in this day of, MasterCard, VisaCard, kind of gift cards, what's the limit? You know, you can just keep on going. If you can afford it, you can keep on voting this is not the world's biggest musical democracy or anything like that. It's who has the most credit cards wins. [00:24:06] Ben: I don't dislike that Slovenia is bringing it up. Has it been cool that I could vote? Yeah, like, but also, it doesn't add that much to, like, the percentage that, like, the Televote has, like, it has, like, a small percentage, but it's easily gamed. It's very easily gamed, Israel had billboards in Times Square just promoting voting for, go to ESC. vote, vote for number six. [00:24:28] Jess: And they had YouTube videos, there was a lot of promotion on social media as well to try and really drum up that, rest of the world vote. the former spokesperson for Israel, he got fired for having a slight Twitter altercation with David Cameron, which I, I think is interesting, but he, he made a post, and the actual phrasing is calling the Jewish diaspora. And, you know It's kind of fascinating because diaspora voting is a huge part of how Eurovision works and when you have the rest of the world vote you're actually calling on a whole range of diasporas so that makes it really fascinating and it shows how migration connects people across the world and to the contest, that sort of thing but, There are also questions about to what extent should participating countries be lobbying for that vote. I think the Diaspora vote was a big one in the Ukrainian televote back in 2022. for Ukraine, because there was, was it five million people who'd been displaced by that conflict, who are now living outside of the, the bounds of Ukraine that could vote. So yeah, that's probably something that we can identify and say that's, that's a trend that happened. But I don't recall ever seeing any, you know, uh, Advertising for that, any advertising that I've ever seen for Eurovision voting is just on social media and it's just kind of general and it's there, but this is really targeted, and calling on, on this idea of diaspora, so I think that's an interesting approach that was taken there. [00:26:09] Ben: There is some level of artist promotion that happens during Eurovision, like, I think of a couple years ago, Malta got into a little bit of hot water because they spent so much money promoting Destiny on social media. they kinda broke their budget on that, and like, I think on some level, yeah, you should be able to promote your artist, but I think how the rest of the world vote has worked, maybe needs to be looked at, cause like, it's an incredibly gameable system. the EBU has had like a couple, televoting scandals over, the last decade or so, where it's like, okay, this is, we've gotten this back to a place where there's like a significant thumb on the [00:26:43] Jess: Mm. And I think, especially in this era where you've got advances in technology, where you can use bots to cycle through credit card numbers really, really quickly, like somebody can set up, I don't know how to do it, I'm not a techie person, but you can set that up so that it's an auto dial, auto vote kind of thing using VPNs and so on, so forth. It is possible, as you say, to put your thumb on that scale if you want to invest in it. And I think the EBU do need to take that really, really seriously and need to understand that the voting blocks, the voting rigging, the corruption that they've encountered in the past is happening in a different technological context now. And anybody could gain that system if they had the will and the funding. [00:27:34] Mike: But I guess that does kind of raise the question of is that rigging actually working? Because the last two years, the jury is pretty much determined who's won the contest. from 2016 to 2022, the winner was either at equal rank with the jury, uh, like the jury and the televote were the same rank, or The contest winner was higher ranked on the Televote side. Last year, that was not the case. Loreen won the jury, she was second in the Televote. This year, Nemo won the jury, but was fifth in the Televote. Which is particularly wild, given that the top three each had more than 300 points. So, it's, Almost surprising that Nemo was able to pull off the victory, given, given that sort of scenario. So, is the jury preventing the rigging in some sort of, like, weird backwards fashion? [00:28:28] Jess: I think that's why they keep the jury in some ways. Also because that's part of the tradition of Eurovision is that it was a jury. It wasn't always the kind of professional jury that we have now that have to be connected to the music industry in some ways. But, you know, they, the jury gets to vote, or not gets to vote, has to vote according to completely different criteria to us at home, where we can just go, that's my fave, I've been supporting them all season, or that song made me get up and dance, so I thought that was really, really fun. we use very kind of subjective measures for, for why we vote the way that we do, whereas the jury have very clear criteria. And when you look at that criteria It's no surprise that Nemo won because, you know, that was an extraordinary performance, lyrically really clever, and the, the musicality of it was incredibly diverse. So it was jury bait in some ways, but it's also the kind of jury bait that us sitting at home were going, that's actually kind of amazing. Like I get puffed walking up the stairs and I'm not even singing a song. [00:29:42] Mike: Then [00:29:42] Jess: Yeah, so I know there's a lot of criticism of the jury, but I think it keeps the contest honest. [00:29:47] Ben: I'm weirdly at a point now where a couple years into having Altelevote on the semifinals, where I'm just like, okay, but like, what if we brought the jury back to those as well, like in some capacity? [00:29:58] Jess: Yeah, because I think that if we, if we brought the jury back, this year's grand final probably would have looked a lot different. I do think that, some of the entries that got in may not have gotten in as easily, as they did. And, you know, Maybe that would be a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing, I don't know how to measure these kind of hypotheticals, but if we think that the jury is important for the grand final, then why don't we think it's important for the semi final? Like, what is the reasoning behind that decision? [00:30:32] Grievance: Toxic Backstage Environment --- [00:30:32] Ben: the Netherlands, like, in the few days up to it, that had done, a verbal, Hey, the vibe here is not great, uh, and then that turned into a written, Hey, uh, no, we're serious, can you look into this? And then, of course, everything with Joost happened. [00:30:45] Jess: Yeah, I think the timeline of events for this year is, is going to, somebody can sit down and map it out. As it happens, I think it'd be really interesting to see how all of these events link up because again, tinfoil hat on, there are fans out there saying, well, were the Netherlands the scapegoat? Were they sacrificed, for all this other stuff that's going on? And why the Netherlands when, from what I understand, Dutch fans bought the most tickets? to go and the Netherlands are the sixth largest contributor to the EBU. So, you know, that's a decision. That's a really interesting decision. [00:31:24] Ben: It's a baffling decision of which delegation to piss off. [00:31:29] Jess: absolutely. And especially, you know, they, they were emerging as a strong contender, in the contest over those couple of days, I think the, the fan thrust towards the Netherlands was, was really quite strong. and so it made all of that play out. in a really interesting way, and made it probably more dramatic than it necessarily needed to be, because he had so much popular support just for the song. And then when people were feeling that, you know, justice has not been played out, then, you know, that's, that's created one of many PR nightmares for SVT and for the EBU. [00:32:14] Mike: I completely agree with that. Like, it's one of those things where it's just, again, it's Monday morning quarterbacking, but just thinking of, like, how the scoreboard would have played out had Netherlands been in there. And the scenario I keep landing on is like, Oh, the EBU would have to figure out how to host in Ukraine again. Not that I'm saying that the EBU was like planning ahead and be like, Oh, if we get rid of them, that that'll solve that problem. it's just I have a feeling the scoreboard would have played out quite differently, but not necessarily in a way where the Netherlands would have won. [00:32:49] 2025: A Rebuilding Year? --- [00:32:49] Mike: What do you envision happening for Eurovision 2025? not necessarily about how the EBU is going to fix this, but it seems like next year is going to be some form of a rebuilding year, hopefully. [00:33:02] Ben: I'm really hopeful that, the changes that happen to the contest do not end with, We're in Switzerland now! [00:33:07] Jess: I think they need to change their slogan because that's just been this kind of ironic call throughout this year's contest. It's just, just, let's go back. [00:33:17] Ben: How long is United by Music gonna stick around as the permanent slogan? I'm pretty sure they have to like, throw it in the trash now. It's just like, nope, nope, we can't do that. We have to go back to just like, awkwardly phrased variants of the same general theme for a few more years. [00:33:32] Jess: And you know what? I'm all for that. I used to love when the slogan came out because, it gave you the vibe check on what this year was going to be about and, you know, how they were going to play around with that theme. Whereas I felt that this year it felt really generic. the Swedes are fantastic at producing a Eurovision, don't get me wrong, but it felt like it could have been any year. Um, done by anyone. Whereas, I'm going to use 2018 as a really good example because it had such a national flavor to it. That all aboard slogan, the real maritime theme, the attempt to draw upon not just Portuguese culture but Lusitanic culture across the world, and you know, bring in Brazilian performers to be part of that, There was a lot that was happening with that theme that allowed Portugal to really maximize it as a nation branding opportunity and, to have their, their real flavor to it. And I know that Sweden doesn't need to operate in quite the same way as other countries. They, they've always, you know, Played by slightly different rules than what you see other countries doing where hosting Eurovision is such a massive opportunity to showcase your culture, your country to the world, whereas Sweden are very, very confident in who they are and their place in the world, that they don't do the same things that other host countries do. you know, which works really fine when we get things like Swedish Smorgasbord and Peace, Peace, Love, Love, but this year just didn't quite have that same kind of, that same flavour, that same vibe. And so I think that if we let countries go back to picking their own slogan, one, We're not going to slam this United by Music thing because if anything like this year happens next year, then that, that slogan is meaningless. It's already really kind of shaky at the moment. So I think get rid of that and let Switzerland just do their thing with the theme and with the production and, take more control over it. I do think that this year was kind of complicated because we've got Osterdahl, who is Swedish. And so it makes it feel like the whole contest is something that's being pushed from a particular perspective. whereas, you know, going to another country next year, like we saw with UK and everything like that, UK and Ukraine, That will create a stronger separation between the EBU and the broadcaster that might be really useful at this point. And I do think that the Swiss broadcaster is going to have to do a lot of diplomatic work more so than any other broadcaster before them. So I think we're going to see a bit of a divide between what the host broadcaster does and what the EBU is seen to be doing in that space. And that will be a good thing. [00:36:34] Mike: And they may have lucked out with it being Switzerland where it's just like you have the world famous neutrality like that [00:36:41] Ben: what is the one thing that comes to mind when you think of Switzerland? That's correct, watches. also neutrality. [00:36:51] Jess: Yeah, so I think it hopefully will be a bit of a reset button and like we're one year off. It would have been more perfect if Switzerland had won and was hosting the 70th, edition of Eurovision, because that would have been this fantastic kind of 2026. We're back, we wouldn't be in Lugano, but you know, cause it's too small for, for the modern contest, but there would be this nice kind of, symmetry in that. But. You know, going back to Switzerland next year is probably the reset that the contest needs, but they do need to do the work and maybe work through Slovenia's checklist and go, okay, what does all of this mean? How is this impacting the country? The reputation of the contest, which is, you know, disrepute of the contest is written into the rules and it is in tatters at the moment. They need to take these criticisms seriously because the other thing that we need to remember is the EBE doesn't just run the Eurovision Song Contest, They run the debates for European Parliament. So this idea of being integrated into the integrity of Europe as a sort of political and cultural entity is baked into what the EBU does. So, yeah. If there's questions about a song contest, what questions are going to be raised about how they run any of their other things, especially something that is a political debate? there are some serious things that they need to be thinking about. [00:38:24] Ben: metaphor that's coming to mind right now is that weirdly the Eurovision Song Contest are like the brown M& Ms in Van Halen's Rider. That's true. It's very silly, but also, if this isn't working, what does this say about larger things at the venue in terms of what we've asked to make sure that everybody is safe, that we are able to perform to everybody? [00:38:41] Mike: all comes back to pyrotechnics. Yeah, [00:38:49] Jess: this thing that, you know, everyone gets to show off their technology. And sadly this year, the technology that was shown off was the anti billing technology. [00:38:59] Ben: Yeah! Both in how it worked and how it didn't work. that one shot to Martin during the final, just like, really? You're not gonna, you're not gonna put any on him? [00:39:08] Jess: No, maybe that was their, their act of integrity of like, see, we're letting the crowd respond, but. No. [00:39:19] Mike: Any of the YouTube videos for this? I have not. But like, I just think of other instances where the EBU has kind of, um, what is a nice way of putting this, uh, completely re envisioned how a performance went. [00:39:34] Ben: revision on how, on like, on how performances have gone. [00:39:37] Mike: like blocking out like stage invaders and that sort of thing. Like, has there been any retroactive editing that has happened? [00:39:44] Jess: I believe that Because we, we re show old Eurovisions on SBS, sometimes. And I remember in 2020, because, you know, nothing was happening, they, they re showed a whole heap of them and I sat there in the middle of the day working. Um, [00:40:04] Mike: It was research! [00:40:05] Jess: It is. It's legit my job. So, you know, um, and watching these old, old Eurovisions. And I remember, uh, having spoken to, I think it was Paul Clark years ago, and he had said that there, there are things that in re broadcasting old Eurovisions that the EBU do decide what can and can't be shown. So, for example, the Justin Timberlake performance isn't actually part of, of what, what's going on. We show here in Australia when it gets cut. the Madonna performance as well. if I recall correctly, they cut early on that. Just to cut out that final bit where the dancers are walking up the stage with the flags on their back. So, I think that there is a little bit of retrospective editing. With Justin Timberlake, I believe that's actually a copyright matter. [00:40:53] Ben: we've all heard the song from the Trolls movie, it's fine. [00:40:56] Jess: Even though I think it's more because like, um, Lara Tessoro completely out Justin Timberlake, Justin Timberlake that year, so it was too embarrassing to keep that up when you're out done by this tiny Belgian pocket rocket. She was amazing. Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I think that the stage invader for Surrey back in 2018 is definitely edited out. Um, but I haven't gone back and looked at, Austria, what was that, 2015 for when Polina Gagarina performed. That was the first year that the so called anti booing technology was deployed. Again, the comparisons that we can make, that's such a fascinating year to compare to in terms of the diplomacy of the contest. I know it's, not the done thing to do. I actually really like that song. It's, you know, written by an Australian as well. So it is a great song, but the irony, of course, is, it's being sung by somebody representing a country that had just annexed, [00:41:58] Mike: A million. Yeah, which has a population of about a million people, which I did not discover until like a year or two ago. I'd be like, Oh, I feel really gross now. [00:42:06] Jess: little bit on the nose. And you know, what we saw that year in the green room, and that was something I 2015 thing where, Conchita was sitting with Polina. for a lot of that and actually told off the audience at one point about their behavior. And Polina Gagarin got into a lot of trouble with the Russian for being seen with Conchita because Conchita had divided Europe, in many ways and Eastern Europe had been heavily critical of everything that she represented. You had Belarusians shaving off their beards, you had, uh, Politicians making statements in Russian parliament, decrying it as homosexual propaganda, like it was a really, really significant thing. And then to have your representative artist being seen with that person is, you know, huge. Of course, all of that is being complicated by the past couple of years where Polina has been actively part of the sort of the Putin machine. And we've seen several Eurovision artists who have been pulled into that. And then you have several that have really pushed away from it or gone for the quiet life and just not said anything. So You know, there's a real sort of politicization of the artist in that sense, where I think, you know, she probably had a choice that needed to be made, about how she was going to function within, Russian society after all of that happened. You know, that was such an interesting year for those kind of politics as well, where we really saw artists as diplomats, I think that's a really important role, or interesting role, that they play in the song contest. Sorry, that was a ramble. [00:43:51] Mike: No, no, but it's it's fascinating. It's just like, this is just more please. [00:43:57] Ben: So let's see, I have no complaints here. [00:44:00] Jess: No, I was vaguely obsessed with 2015 and Conchita and Polina because I just thought it was utterly, utterly fascinating to see that trajectory from being vilified by the Russian government to becoming A symbol of Russian culture and identity. And it's just, there are choices that are being made there. That's probably the most I can say on something that's going to be internationally broadcast. [00:44:25] Mike: Yeah. [00:44:29] 2025: A Rebuilding Year? (complimentary) --- [00:44:29] Mike: So is there anything that you are hoping for in next year's contest? not necessarily like EBU, fixing everything that has broken in the last 12 months, but like, more optimistically, just like, Oh, I hope this artist appears, Australia's participation. [00:44:46] Jess: Look, I, I really hope that Australia does continue to participate. Like I'm aware that it's a difficult question because it, it, it's, it's costs money and you know, cost of living crisis. It hits all of us. Uh, but it's been such an amazing opportunity for Australian artists to get international exposure. I miss us having Australia decides because that was such a fantastic event and it gave Australian, cause it's really expensive to travel from Australia to Europe, like really expensive. It's a very long plane trip. We don't take it lightly to go to a Eurovision, whereas having Australia Decides, which I could drive there because it was just down the road from me, so that was awesome, but having an Australia Decides National Selection allowed us to Eurovision fans in Australia who couldn't afford to go to Europe to be able to congregate in one space and have a little bit of that experience. But the other really cool thing about it was it meant that, you know, between eight and ten artists had an international audience and there are now people across the world who know who Jaguar Jones is. Um, all of these artists who have had that exposure and are able to build these international careers. So I know it's not a widespread thing. It's like one artist every year, unless we have a national selection, but it's such a huge thing for people to begin to be interested in, in Australian music that isn't, you know, in excess, or Kylie Minogue. No, no slight on either of those. They're, you know, obviously iconic artists, but, you know, there's so much more that's happening in Australian music, and this gave us that, that opportunity. So, I would love for Australia to continue to participate. I'd like to see the UK go back to a national selection as well. I don't know if it always works for them, but I, I think that the vibe in the UK was really positive after Sam Ryder, and that they didn't maximise that, but they could probably get that same sort of popular thing behind it. Liverpool love Eurovision, like after last year, they, they decided, no, we're just going to keep the party going. So if you had a national selection in Liverpool. [00:47:06] Mike: Yeah. [00:47:07] Jess: think that they could really, really get some popular support behind a UK artist, and, pick a song that the UK public really, really wanted. So that's the kind of thing that I would really like to see is, is a return to national selections in a lot of countries that aren't currently using them. Um, maybe a little less drama would be really, really nice. Yeah, [00:47:37] Ben: a tire fire as this year [00:47:39] Jess: yeah, because it's just, it's been exhausting and we weren't even there. [00:47:44] Mike: Yeah. [00:47:45] Jess: in Australia we, we screen the live show at five o'clock in the morning. it's really nasty. Um, there is a delayed tele, delayed broadcast of it. If you're going to vote or, you need to be commenting on national radio at like seven o'clock, you have to be watching it. So, you know, we, we get up at five o'clock in the morning to, to watch Eurovision. So we're already exhausted. But usually I use the days between to sleep in a little bit and to relax. This year, I've, No, I remember I had to get up and use the loo at five o'clock. I'm like, I'm just going to Twitter at five o'clock. And this was the day of the whole use thing. I'm like, Oh, okay. That was a [00:48:24] Ben: those days were not, I do not need to know my screen time from those [00:48:28] Jess: No, was just constant doomscroll. My phone usually lasts all day. It died halfway through the day because I was just I could not tear myself away from it and you know what, I'd like to be able to have some time to go and touch the grass between, between the semi finals and the grand final. [00:48:48] Studying Australia's Relationship with Eurovision --- [00:48:48] Mike: No. We should talk about your research. Like, is your research primarily, Eurovision focused. [00:48:55] Jess: It is, it is. I mean, I have lots of little projects, but Eurovision is my main thing. so I started out by looking at, the way queer politics divides Europe. That was the very first thing I ever did for a, special journal issue that was edited by the wonderful Catherine Baker, who, if you haven't read her work, make sure you go and read it, especially her blogs that she puts out are so thoughtful. Yeah, really thought provoking. She did a fantastic one about baby lasagna and Croatian culture, yep. [00:49:26] Ben: yeah, just like multiple times during that piece I'm like, well this is great, and then it was like, there's more! [00:49:30] Jess: she is just amazing. I'm totally in awe of her. So she gave me my first Eurovision publishing opportunity. Uh, and then as part of that, I wanted to back up my claim. That Australians watch Eurovision because of migration. this is what we say. We say it all the time. And I started doing it and there was no research on Eurovision in Australia. And I'm like, what? It's been screening at that point for like 30 years. And, you know, I knew so many people who had Eurovision parties and it was such a, a big, not like a huge, you know, Mainstream culture, but it was a subculture, and I thought it was really quite significant, so I thought, why hasn't anybody looked at this? This is ridiculous. So I did. And so that was, that was the, the book that I wrote a few years ago, which needs to be updated because so much has changed since then. Um, but it really poked into why Australians watch Eurovision and the funny thing that I found out about that was we all say the story about European migration, but the reality is that we're drawn to it because it's fun. And that was the big thing. And I thought, Oh God, fun. That's such a, that's such a stupid thing for us to say. But when you look into what that fun means for people, that fun is actually belonging, that fun is about having a moment where the bad things in the world don't happen. Um, that feeling of being connected to the world, that was a big thing that came out of Australian viewers, is that they felt connected to the rest of the world, the rest of the world being a really kind of strange concept in, in Eurovision itself. So that was Quite a fascinating thing to see that it wasn't about that migration at all. It was about all of these other things that were going on. But also the big thing is Australia is multicultural in that bigger sense. We're not just all from Europe. We've had incredibly diverse migration, particularly from the 1970s onwards when we opened up migration and got rid of some of the racial restrictions that were in place. there was increased Migration, particularly from the Asian regions. And the story that I always tell, because it just really sticks out with me. One of my participants in the survey that I ran talked about being a migrant family from the Philippines. And when they had been living in the Philippines, they used to watch these kind of variety TV shows. And so when they came to Australia, they discovered Eurovision and the reason they felt connected to it was because it reminded them of home in the Philippines. Watching these variety shows. And so it shows that yeah, migration is a part of it, but it's way more complicated than that initial story tells. And, you know, as you know, there's a huge Philippine, Eurovision fan community. So, you know, that's kind of a fantastic globalization of the contest to have seen. my research since then has kind of expanded. Currently I'm looking at the dumpster fire. Um, That's what I'm going to call it. So I'm doing a study that's comparing how we responded in 2022. to how we're responding here in 2024. so a lot of it is trawling through all of the the commentary and coverage and re watching those contests, but I will be launching a global survey soon Because I really wanted to dig into that thing of like, why do we vote the way that we do? Looking specifically at how we voted in 2022 and how we voted this year, and what has gone into our decision making processes. Because as I said earlier, the jury have criteria. We don't. And What I want to understand is, to what extent do we, as fans and audiences, use our vote in a democratic way, and I mean that in the political sense of, to what extent do we use it to communicate how we feel about things that are going on in the world? Did people vote for Ukraine because they loved the song, or did they vote out of solidarity? that is actually a crucial question to understand, because I think there are assumptions that are made about that, that may influence the way that certain states also participate in Eurovision and their expectations around how the popular vote is going to go. so I'm looking at what I call participatory diplomacy, which is how we as fans and audiences Participate as diplomats through that voting process and through our interactions with organizations like the EBU, with organizations like the broadcasters, because if you have a look at the socials for the EBU and the official Eurovision social media accounts, people are using it to speak back. To those organizations. And I think that's a really important thing, to be looking at and understanding to what extent do fans and audiences feel heard in this context? and not just feel heard, but see themselves being heard in terms of how these organizations respond to the concerns that are being voiced. So yeah, that's what's happening. [00:54:49] Mike: And I think you've got some data this year that you're going to be able to use. [00:54:53] Jess: Yeah. Just, just a little bit. [00:54:58] Mike: Oh my goodness. Yeah, that sounds so fascinating. And it's gonna be really interesting to see like what what comes out of that. if there's any way that we can help more than happy to do so, because it just sounds fascinating. [00:55:11] Jess: you to plug my, uh, my survey when it comes out. [00:55:13] Mike: Absolutely do it. [00:55:16] Jess: I want to get as many people as possible. Why did you vote the way that you did? Why did you rob? Whoever I liked it that year. [00:55:24] Did any loose ends get tied up? --- [00:55:24] Mike: There are a lot of loose ends. I think the only one that was tied up was the EU flag flap. The EBU did did issue not quite an apology, but at least like an explanation for why this happened and that it should not have happened and that the flag policy will be revisited for next year's contest. [00:55:42] Jess: I think with that one though, it's the Because I think I have seen EU flags at Eurovision before, but this year they were definitely there as part of Europapa costumes. And so I feel in some ways that the EU flag was collateral damage in everything that was going on in that space. Thanks! [00:56:04] Ben: Yeah, just like in attempting to try to clean up some of the mess that had started from Yost no longer being in the contest. They may be course corrected a little bit too far. [00:56:13] Jess: Yeah, yeah, because, I mean, the EU flag is, it's just the EU flag. Most of the EU countries are there. Like, what, what does it matter? And also, you fans have a right to still be represented in that space. They, you know, may have already pre organized their outfits and everything before getting to the grand final, so why would they change them? And especially in that, if they're fans, then you would want to be. flying that flag and wearing those costumes and, and all of those because you, you want to show your support for that artist, even if they're not performing in that particular show. So, you know, even that itself becomes this really important action that fans have taken in that space. [00:56:58] Ben: I'm very interested to see how the first reference group meeting this summer goes. It's just, buckle up, everybody, and pack a lunch. [00:57:06] Jess: it's not going to be fun and I wouldn't want to see EBU execs, Google Calendar at the moment because it would just be like meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting and none of them, none of them are going to be good. but I think that's the interesting thing also that Slovenia has raised in their, their laundry list, where they want that more democratic, uh, Decision making, with the EBU members and because that's also a really interesting thing when you look at the way that EBU, the EBU talks about their decision making. They always talk about being beholden to what their members want, that, you know, they behaved in one way in 2022 because their members wanted it. They've behaved this way in 2024 for lots of other reasons, but in part because their members haven't supported, you know, their members. Particular exclusions or anything like that. so for Sylvania to be saying, actually, we don't feel that members have, quite an equal say in that decision making process, it really cuts again to what the EBU is supposed to be about. that is going to be an interesting one to watch. and also whether or not they have any sort of shakeup in the group membership. [00:58:13] Ben: yeah, like, yes, I'm very interested in that, like, I think just the fact that it's the broadcasters that are raising these concerns. I think it's going to be taken much more seriously than if it was just sort of general fan outcry from the year, every year, there's like a certain level of, of fandom, being fandom. That gets smoothed over with like a nice prepared statement, and, and this year, like, they have tried to issue some prepared statements, and it's going about as well as those could be going, given the fire. but, the fact that, it is the broadcasters, like, no, we have concerns and we want to talk about them. we'll see what comes out of all of this, but like, it's giving me, like, in the immediate week afterwards, it's giving me a little bit more hope about getting this fixed. [00:58:53] Jess: Yeah, it'll be Interesting to see whether the concerns just stem from this year or whether any of those broadcasters have been having reservations for some time. whether or not we're going to privy to any of these discussions and their decision making, I'm going to say with no, and we'll just have some nice smoothing over statements that come out at the end. it's been made clear that changes do need to be made. it's not right for a whole range of reasons, but the fact that so many artists felt that it was a toxic environment to be part of this year, I think is, is really, really problematic. in part because you know, that's their working environment and nobody should be subject to a toxic working environment. And you know, that includes camera people and things like that. We'll see how that pans out. but the effect of that is you're going to have artists not wanting to participate, which affects the way that broadcasters think about their participation, which affects, the longevity of the contest as a whole. So they need to be looking at all of these concerns and taking them quite seriously and thinking to what extent does what happened, you know, Backstage, reflect the values of the contest as well as what's happening on the stage, and making sure that there's some sort of consistency to ensure that people, artists, broadcasters, audiences are going to want to continue to participate because I've seen some, fan press, outlets or, fan media accounts, saying that they, they don't want to follow the contest anymore, even after many, many years. And I think that's, that's sad and that's problematic. And, It's not just the fans, it is the artists, and I would like to see awesome artists continue to participate in Eurovision and get the exposure and give us the bangers that we need. take it seriously please, EBU. [01:00:50] Mike: Yes. [01:00:51] Ben: Yes. [01:00:54] Final Thoughts --- [01:00:54] Mike: Great. is there anything that you would like to plug or any social media accounts that you'd like to point our listeners to? [01:01:00] Jess: No. [01:01:01] Mike: Okay. [01:01:02] Ben: Ha ha ha! [01:01:04] Jess: No, it's, it's, yeah, I've kind of, uh, withdrawn a little bit from social, like I'm doing a little bit on Blue Sky, but, and it's not Eurovision, it's also Elon Musk and Twitter and, and everything, so I'm not as active as I used to be in those spaces, but I'm still watching them, and this is the weird thing, is I'm just there doomscrolling rather than actively participating in it, and I don't, I don't know whether that's any better. [01:01:31] Mike: but I mean, I think, I think that is also just kind of part and parcel with this, this whole existential crisis, where it's just like we are in a communications shift, like not just in Eurovision, but like social media, what The web is in 2024. And it's not a clean transition. And I think there's just going to be a lot of scars as a result. And Eurovision is just kind of, it's so big that it's just getting cut up more than other organizations. [01:02:00] Jess: I mean, I think also, because TikTok's one of, is their media sponsor, their social media sponsor, or partner, or however you want to put it. I personally don't use TikTok, and a lot of people don't use TikTok because governments are coming down quite hard on it. So for example, here in Queensland, our state government has said that government devices can't have the TikTok app on it. and so that meant that, you know, my media and communication team at the university had to remove it from their devices, because those are technically Government items. so you've got this sort of divide that I notice happening as well between, you know, that really strong Twitter ex community that have been there for a very long time. Facebook have their own thing going on as well. but then there was a war, there was a war this year between Twitter Eurovision fans and TikTok Eurovision fans, because I think the TikTok ones are younger. Then the Twitter ones, and so it's a kind of, it's, it's a platform war, it's a generational war, it, you know, it was kind of fascinating, but I only ever saw one side of it because I'm not, not on the other one. But, um, yeah, so I think that by bringing on TikTok as a particular partner that there's lots of politics around TikTok and relationships with China and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. it further complicates having them as a partner in that space, as well as the way that people, use social media platforms in a variety of ways. So, just another thing for them to think about. [01:03:37] Ben: Yeah, yeah, no, like, just social media in the last 9 to 12 months has just also been another fire. Because, again, the Elon Musk of it all, the fragmentation of Everybody leaving Twitter to one of these six other websites that are trying to fulfill the same need but are all wrong in their own [01:03:56] Jess: Yes. Although, you know, as they sort of develop and people sort of find their place, but so many people are gravitated back to their old forms and everything like that, because. It's kind of too hard to adapt to these new [01:04:11] Ben: like the whatever the new thing that's going to replace what niche that has filled has not arrived yet. So we're just trying to make versions of the same [01:04:20] Jess: Yeah, and when you already have an established community on one platform, it's really difficult to leave that and try and find them again on the next platform. And that's kind of how they get us, is it's so integrated, not just into our lives, but the actual social fabric of how we relate to one another can you extract yourself entirely from that space? Thanks. [01:04:45] Ben: Jess, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a fantastic discussion and Good processing of just sort of all of the things that have been sort of floating around in my head all [01:04:54] Jess: Has it been cathartic? [01:04:56] Ben: Yes! [01:04:56] Mike: And I think it's setting us up for like, whatever the next phase of this problem solving is going to be Again, it's a rebuilding year, and this is not going to be resolved with a press release next week. [01:05:08] Jess: No, and there's going to be a lot of work happening. Like they're going to need the next 12 months to work on this. we can hope for a resolution by Eurovision New Year in September. at most we're going to find out where it is that the contest is going next year, which will be exciting in itself. But yeah, there's a lot of work happening behind the scenes. [01:05:30] Ben: Well, that's going to do it for this episode of the Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat podcast is hosted by Ben Smith, that's me, and Mike McComb. [01:05:39] Mike: That's me! If you'd like to help support the show and access a ton of bonus content, head on over to patreon. com slash eurowhat. [01:05:46] Ben: Free access to our full archive of more than 200 episodes going all the way back to the 2018 contest can be found on our website, Eurowhat. com. [01:05:54] Mike: Next time on the Eurowhat, this year's contest had a whole lotta look, which we'll discuss with Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan of the Fug Girls.