227 CVS Bangerz === [00:00:00] Mike R: The vibe is so good that there's like a lot of really good raw material to work with if you could just like, if you could just get, get a little organized. [00:00:23] Ben: Hello, and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 227, dropping on April 16th, 2024. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Ben Smith, and I'm here with my co host, Mike McComb. Hey, Mike. [00:00:37] Mike M: Hello. [00:00:38] Ben: In this episode, we'll be talking about our second group of songs from the second semifinal with our special guest, Mike Organetta. [00:00:43] Welcome, Mike Rugnetta! --- [00:00:43] Ben: Hey, Mike. [00:00:44] Mike R: Hello! It's very nice to be here. [00:00:47] Ben: It's very nice to have you. thank you for joining [00:00:50] Mike R: Yeah, of course. Thanks for inviting me. [00:00:52] Ben: We met at the taping of NPR's Ask Me Another roughly a decade ago, and, [00:00:58] Mike R: Yeah, that's scary, but [00:00:59] Ben: oh yeah, no, no, no, it was terrifying when I was digging through the emails, like how long ago was, oh, no. At the time then, you were doing Idea Channel for YouTube, and now you have a new podcast, Never Post, which is a fantastic title. [00:01:12] Mike R: Thank you. Thank you. [00:01:13] Ben: it is about the internet, do you wanna explain what Never Post is, or what the, what is the goal with Never [00:01:19] Mike R: Yeah, sure. someone described it. To me, so I don't want to take credit for this as, terminally online this American life. Um, so it's a, it's a podcast that's in segments. Uh, we do, depending upon how you count it, two or three segments an episode and their stories about the internet. and it is mostly related to stuff that the producers of the show have experienced and things that we're interested in. and the idea is that it's A podcast about the internet for the internet, for like people who already kinda have a sense of what's going on, don't need things like Twitter trending topics explained to them. So for example, today's episode, we're recording this on March 27th, today's episode came out, uh, this morning and the two segments are, our producer Georgia worked with her friend Luis, who is a professional. Audio producer, to develop this idea or this theory of why so much audio online sounds bad seemingly on purpose, uh, that there's a lot of internet memes, that are really distorted or like, you know, you watch TikTok videos and people are like really like just all up in the mic and it's the proximity effect is really strong and, you know, like they are recording videos out in the wind. Like why, why, why choose to do this when it's easy to figure out how to make good audio. [00:02:35] Mike M: Oh, I'm getting hives. Oh, [00:02:39] Mike R: for us, it was, we distorted a bunch of it on purpose, you know, to, like, make the point. And it really felt like playtime, because we're all audio engineers that work on the show. So it was very much like getting, like, almost having a food fight. And then the other segment is about, this journal, issue, the special journal issue that came out at the end of last year that puts forward this idea that the Mega Dungeon, which is a setting from tabletop role playing games, uh, so like just this vast, uh, underground environment, is actually a pretty useful metaphor for trying to understand Contemporary media, technology, and the internet. And so I talked to two of the Italian academics that put this Journal issue together about that metaphor and why they think it works and what about it they think is, fruitful. it's wild. It was fascinating to talk to them about it. And yeah, has kind of changed the way that I look at the internet, to be honest. [00:03:39] Ben: I am absolutely gonna go, check out the journal, cause like, I was also just like, this is a really interesting framework. [00:03:44] Mike R: Yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating. And the journal is, it's academic. So, you know, there's citations. We're talking about philosophers. There's theorists in there, but it's, it's readable. you can really like get a lot from it. And it's, it's dense. Like there's a lot of really good stuff in there. So yeah, we, it's a 20 minute segment with them. We barely scratched the surface. [00:04:04] Mike M: that sounds amazing. And it also sounds like catnip for a lot of listeners for this show. [00:04:09] Mike R: You can find NeverPost wherever you get your podcasts and at NeverPo. st So, [00:04:17] Mike M: to Eurovision? [00:04:21] Mike R: so I told these guys beforehand, I was like, I'm very excited to answer this question on tape. Um, I'm going to say that it is not a massive exaggeration to say that the answer is this podcast. I have known what Eurovision is for a long time, just sort of ambiently, but the five songs that I listened to before coming on here, I think, if memory serves, are the first five Eurovision songs I have listened to, at least on purpose. Here's the sum total of what I know about Eurovision, and you tell me what I get wrong. People sing songs. No. artists who don't necessarily live in the country that they are representing, uh, in the tour tournament? Do you call it, even call it a tournament? Contest? Just contest? [00:05:18] Ben: It is a tournament, like, I have joked with people that I host a sports podcast. [00:05:22] Mike R: Okay, so people who don't necessarily live in the countries, that they are representing in Eurovision, write and record songs that are entered into the contest and they all compete. songs have to be fewer than three minutes. Is that true? Okay. I think that might be the most detailed piece of information that I know. Um, and, uh, There are, uh, from what I understand, like, as of relatively recently, like, two parts to it. There's the music video, and the stage performance. And, what I do not know, among many, many, many other things, is which, uh, my understanding, or my assumption, is that what you are judged on is the stage performance, eventually. Like how you do live. [00:06:15] Mike M: Yes, that, [00:06:17] Mike R: Okay. [00:06:17] Mike M: yeah, yeah, the music video piece of it, that is a relatively recent development, having an official music video was added as part of the submission process. Um, there was one time, this was back in 2013, where the video that was submitted initially was just somebody, like, on a Skype call. singing their song into a microphone and be like, okay, here's the recording. We'll get you a real video later. [00:06:43] Mike R: I respect it. Wait. Okay. So is it not required that you have a music video? [00:06:50] Mike M: It's required that there is some video created. It doesn't have to be like an MTV quality music video. Like, like that Skype video fulfilled that requirement. And if they didn't do a real music video after that, [00:07:02] Mike R: That would have been fine. [00:07:03] Mike M: fine. Or, um, sometimes the official video is just the, recording of the performance that they did during their national selection process. or a previous audition It's just something that they can throw onto YouTube, but the actual performance that is being judged by a jury and that people are voting on is the live performance that happens in May. [00:07:24] Mike R: Okay. I promise i'm not gonna ask you to explain the entirety of how this works to me. I I purposefully I I had a moment in my kitchen earlier today where I was like Am I going to go read the Wikipedia entry for Eurovision? And I just, I made the active decision not to. The national selection process, I imagine, is roughly what it sounds like, where you have a bunch of people who do represent that country, performing all at once, like, in a, in an event. That person is then selected to go on to the overall competition that is Eurovision. [00:07:58] Mike M: Yes, and it is in several different forms. Like there are some shows that are like a American Idol type program. other shows where it's like a six week series. Some where it's just a one night event, there are festivals, sometimes the broadcasters will just pick an artist and, pick the song, and there is no, competition, uh, piece of it, or at least no public facing competition [00:08:21] Ben: Yeah, we'll just get like an alert that's just like, Hello, Armenia has selected. Here is their song. [00:08:26] Mike R: they released the white smoke out of [00:08:29] Ben: Exactly. [00:08:29] Mike M: hmm. Yeah, and actually, like, looking at the list of the songs that we're talking about today, it's a mixture of all of the different methods, and yeah, we've even got San Marino in there, which is, uh, a ride. Uh [00:08:42] Ben: just, just like any of us could have been the San Marino entrant if we had, if we had gone through the appropriate procedure. [00:08:48] Mike M: Yes. [00:08:48] Mike R: is a, this is good to know if I need to make a career change. [00:08:51] Estonia - 5MIINUST x Puuluup - "(nendest) narkootikumidest ei tea me (küll) midagi (We (do) know nothing about (these) drugs) --- [00:08:51] Mike M: Yeah, yo, yeah. Should we dive in headfirst? [00:08:57] Ben: Vis Minus and Pulup have teamed up to be Estonia's representative with their song, right? Yeah. Nunes, Kote, Kumi de uh, so V Manous are a hip hop group that formed in 2015 and started making waves in the Estonian music scene in 2018. They have five number one singles so far and have been a part of the Baltic branch of Universal Music Group since 2019. P Loop are a new folk duo that formed in 2014. The instrument they're playing during the performance is called a Tall Harpa, which has historical origins in both Estonia and Sweden. This year's entry, often shortened to simply Nendest, is written by the members of Vaisminust, Kovr, Lancelot, Pevokor, and Poia Kordia, and the duo Pulup, Marko Tainer. Last year, Estonia was represented by Alika and her song Bridges, which finished in 8th place. Estonia will perform in slot 13 after Belgium and before Italy's preview performance. Mike Ragnetta, what did you think of this one as your initial entry into Eurovision? [00:10:15] Mike R: yeah, I went in order. So this was the first one that I watched and I thought, wow. If they're all like this, I could get into Eurovision. What I, I mean, so I watched the, I watched the music video, first before I just sort of like sat down and like listened, listened. Um, and what I wrote down was sort of if the cast of the Matrix were gutter punks, uh, and this was a themed, wait, sort of if I wrote down nonsense is what I'm realizing. Sort of if the cast of the Matrix were gutter punks themed Estonian folk music warehouse rave Which like [00:10:53] Mike M: I think that captures [00:10:54] Mike R: ticks a lot of boxes for me I mean, yeah, my general opinion of this is that it like if you were to ask me to imagine what Eurovision is like and what the songs that are Mostly played like in the Eurovision contest are like I would have described something like this which is Something that is like pop music adjacent has a lot of sort of national personality And has a kind of, folk music twinge, from the place that it is representing. This is just really fun. I love the tal I think I like the talharpa generally. Um, and, uh, you get some older guys in a warehouse doing a talharpa. Talharpa off. I think the like, the vocal performances are compelling. you know, this isn't necessarily something that I would like, listen to, like, I would not, I don't think, choose to listen to this. Uh, like, you know, in my day to day life, but like, I find the, like, hip hop influence interesting, and, raises a lot of Questions in the way that I'm sure a lot of the sort of cross cultural stuff does, in Eurovision, but, it felt like they pulled it off and, uh, the intersection with the, more folk style singing I thought was, was really nice and just altogether kind of worked for me. [00:12:16] Mike M: I still really like this one. I've been a big fan of this one since it was released. Oh goodness, was this back in December? Whenever the Estée Lauder songs dropped. And this was the first one that I heard. And I was like, ooh, this is really going to work for me. It was what opened up their national selection process. I think it's a great opener. I really don't like that they are in the second half of the second semi final. That is like the worst place for this song to be. Like, this should be kicking off the party, not be, smack in the middle of it. I'm still really enthusiastic about this one. I don't think the overall Eurovision community is as enthusiastic as I would like them to be. I think I think they got lumped into the Weird Little Dudes category that we've created this season, and I don't really think that they, I don't think they're weird enough to be weird little dudes, but, uh, yeah, and even in that grouping, I believe when, Dude Pond was on, she put them in fourth weirdest dudest ness, and, I think that's correct. But, my concerns with the song are, like, going back to what the live performance was like at the semifinals and the grand final, where it was very messy. Like, the, the adrenaline of the performance kind of took over, and, the camera operators didn't really know where to look all of the time, and I don't think the guys could hear each other. So I think they were kind of stepping on their toes. Yeah, it was a bit of a hot mess, but it felt like something that could be [00:13:43] Ben: I [00:13:44] Mike R: There's also some, uh, in the, in the music video, like in the studio track, there's a fair amount of, uh, like a, you know, some vocal processing on a lot of the delivery. That's like doing a lot to make it sit in a certain way. And yeah, the mix, I did notice, yeah, the mix in the live performance was weird. The vocal performances were like, not as sharp. [00:14:03] Mike M: And I think this is also going to be something that's tricky, when you have six people who are, like, just, like, the mic setup of having six live mics operating, and people kind of all over the stage, like, I think this is going to be a real challenge for the audio engineers. at Eurovision. but if they're successful in that, I think this could turn into a really good performance, but hopefully these guys are putting the work in to accomplish that, because if they're just going to kind of, like, I don't know, not do their homework, not study for the tests the night before, like, it could be again, kind of a hot mess. But, I'm hopeful for this one. I don't think I have the winter vibes from it that I had the last time that we talked about this one, but I still really like this track. I do seek it out. It's going to be part of my main playlist for a while. [00:14:54] Ben: think the reason that we had winter vibes is because, like, it really feels like a couple years ago there was the Moldovan entry. Where, ZubZdub, where they paired up with, a new folk duo, and everybody in, Turin was just, like, really on board with their song, and, like, this has some of the same energy to me, but I'm really worried about the stage performances, like, lock them in the studio, and make them map out what they're going to do, leave them some room for improvisation, but, like, they need to be able to give the camera operators, Here is where we're going to be. Please focus on this. Lyrically, this song is super fun, and it's telling a story, essentially, like, they're getting pulled over by the cops, and just like, yeah, I don't know where these drugs came from. Part of the staging, like, goes all trippy and psychedelic, like, uh oh, it's kicking in, and the camera just doesn't know where to go. [00:15:40] Mike R: Could you describe briefly? Why that's important. Asking for a friend, me. It sounds like, I'm gonna guess, so, is part of the way you win Eurovision impressing people at home so that they vote for you on the internet? [00:15:57] Ben: Your scoring in Eurovision is two parts, half of your points come from a, a, every nation sends a jury of five industry professionals of some sort. who are evaluating the songs on like a list of criteria, uh, ranking them, all that gets tabulated up, and they'll give their points out to the top 10 of those based on that. and then the other half comes from the Televote, where you cannot vote for your own nation, [00:16:19] Mike R: Oh. [00:16:20] Ben: but you can, call in and like there's now an app for rest of the world where you can give like essentially up to 20 votes to the things you like. So you are trying to appeal to both. A jury of music professionals of some sort who are evaluating, sort of, the artistic merits. But you also want to have something fun for the people at home who are watching, because ultimately it's a TV show. [00:16:41] Mike R: And so, if the camera is all over the place, can't follow the action and it looks really messy, then everybody at home is just there and have no idea what's going on, they're not gonna vote for you. [00:16:49] Ben: Exactly, and like, if your vocals are all over the place, and the audio engineers in the arena don't know what to do, you're not going to sound your best. [00:16:57] Mike R: Okay, okay, that makes sense. The [00:16:58] Ben: There's a lot going on under the hood of this one, even though it's very fun, and I just want all of that to shine. it's really grown on me, I, it is also like, not in my regular playlist, but like, when I watch the performance of this, I'm like, I wanna see what they're, what they're gonna do in the arena with this one, cause they're at like a really weird spot in the lineup, could really kick off. Which would be fun. [00:17:18] Mike R: vibe is so good that there's like a lot of really good raw material to work with if you could just get, get a little organized. [00:17:26] Mike M: Yeah. And I mean, I think that is one of the strengths of the song where, like, you get the vibe, even if you do not speak Estonian, [00:17:33] Mike R: Yeah, you really [00:17:33] Mike M: be a big part of the audience. And it's like, oh, I know what this song is about. I want to be at that party. So. Yeah. [00:17:40] Mike R: That was another thing that, well, we can talk about this as we go through the other stuff, but like, I now realize, like, should I have been slightly surprised that it was in Estonian? [00:17:50] Mike M: Um, maybe? Like, it's, that's something that has been shifting the last several years at Eurovision. I want to say it was the 2017 contest? There were very few songs that were, in a language other than English. Like, you might have been able to count it, on one hand. Funny enough, that year a song in Portuguese ended up winning, and that kind of opened the door to like, oh, non English songs do actually stand a chance [00:18:17] Mike R: Got [00:18:18] Mike M: Since then, a song in Italian has won, a song in Ukrainian has won, Finland, had a song in Finnish last year, finished in second place, a lot of people thought it should have won, present company included, and, um, yeah, so, like, language has been expanding. The last several years, so it's kind of a surprise in that I'm trying to remember the last well, Estonia has been sending Estonian songs, but it's kind of a coin flip on whether or not their entry is going to be in Estonian or English. [00:18:50] Mike R: it. Yeah. I think just, I thought, I think it sounds great. Like it's just a great, it's great to listen to. Yeah. [00:18:55] Ben: then again, Finland last year, both Ugric languages and there's just something very nice and percussive about them that works really well. [00:19:02] Mike R: Yeah. I agree with that. I'm root, I'm rooting for him. [00:19:04] Denmark - SABA - "Sand" --- [00:19:21] Mike M: Anna Saba Ohlenschlager, who performs as Saba, will represent Denmark at Eurovision with the song Sand. Saba is a model and singer who made her musical theatre debut in a production of Hair in 2023. She is also an ambassador for the Danish Depression Association and was featured in a documentary about her experience with bipolar disorder. Saba was selected via the process Dansk Melodi Grand Prix, where she opened the show. Three acts advanced to the DMGP Superfinal, where Saba was the clear favorite of the jury. She finished third in the televote, which led to some grumbling following her win despite having a clear margin of victory. Sand is written by Jonas Thander, Melanie Vebbe, and Pil Kalinka Nygaard Jepson. Vebbe has previously written Move, performed by The Mamas, which won Sweden's Melodifestivalen in 2020, and Love is Forever, performed by Leonora, which was Denmark's entry in 2019, and the last time the country made it to the Eurovision Grand Final. Last year's entry, Breaking My Heart, by Riley, opened the second semifinal, but failed to qualify in 14th place. Denmark is in slot 7 between Austria and Armenia. So, Ben, what do you think of SAN? [00:20:37] Ben: It has something anthemic going for it. it's propulsive, it's well performed, but I don't find it the most interesting of, the various kind of straightforward pop tracks, like, it's somewhere between, what won last year or so, Loreen's Tattoo, and kind of what Denmark sent a decade ago when they won, it's like, only teardrops, like, there's something kind of in the same anthemic, mid tempo y sort of a deal, where, like, okay, this is sort of what people were in the mood for last year, I'm not sure it's gonna do The same sort of business? Like, if there's some interesting visuals happening, I can see it getting through. I can also see it placing like 11th and like just missing the final. [00:21:16] Mike R: There is a, class of song that I call grocery store song. [00:21:21] Mike M: That is Denmark's brand! [00:21:23] Mike R: Yeah, is it really? Okay. All [00:21:24] Mike M: Uh, yeah, we've heard Denmark entries at Walgreens and CVS here [00:21:29] Mike R: No way. Okay [00:21:30] Mike M: Uh, yeah. [00:21:34] Mike R: No, um, yeah It's like I you know It sounds like something my grocery store plays like bumpin dance music to try to get you to move around Really quickly and like buy a bunch of stuff and it just yeah, it sounds to me like a song I would hear in the grocery store, which like That's not necessarily bad, but I think, to Ben's point, it's not very interesting. doesn't really stand out. The performance is very capable. Describing it as anthemic is really, is really nice. I think that's really spot on. however, I do, think there is something slightly, maybe unintentionally comical about belting out the word sand. It's just like, it's [00:22:13] Ben: about Dune. [00:22:14] Mike R: yeah, it's like, Oh man. I mean, the, the crossover event that they missed, it does all the things that you have to do in a kind of song like this, you know, it's got the distant pitch down vocals with the highs rolled off. Like you, you got like, you're making a grocery store song. You gotta, you gotta have that in there. It's got like the big, the big pop music chorus that you need in your song that you're performing on America's Got Talent or whatever. It feels really familiar. I think is maybe what it all comes down to. [00:22:46] Ben: I'm just now mentally picturing it in like CVS Bangerz 6 and just like, yep, slots right in. [00:22:51] Mike R: Fits right, right next to Celine Dion. Like there it goes. [00:22:54] Mike M: I agree with what both of you are saying. I still find myself really optimistic about this one. I agree. I think part of it is, I think this is a really good recalibration for Denmark, because they have been struggling the last few years. Riley's performance last year, that was not a good live vocal at all. I, I don't know, Ben, you were in the room for that. Uh, maybe, maybe it was a little bit better, uh, just didn't translate through TV. [00:23:19] Ben: Live, I think, like, just being in an arena which is not necessarily built for, like, music performance. Like, it evens out all of the stuff that's maybe a little bit pitchy when you have, like, the dedicated feed. [00:23:30] Mike M: Right. So, last year, not a great live vocal, the year before, uh, with Ready, that was just not the right mode for 2022. Führerflamme, was fun, but 80s revivalism, is a non starter at Eurovision, it [00:23:45] Mike R: Really? That's surprising. [00:23:47] Mike M: Yeah, but there have been so many songs that have like tried to capture that. And they, most of them have just kind of fallen flat. I think part of it is a lot of them also kind of lean on the garish pink and purple school photo backdrop line design. [00:24:04] Mike R: sure, sure. The lasers. Yeah. [00:24:06] Ben: Mhm. [00:24:06] Mike M: yeah. So like that, that aesthetic, it's, it's a lot of look for three minutes on a high def TV. I think Sand is like really radio friendly, really grocery store friendly. The live performance was good. It does need a zhuzh, there needs to be some form of movement that is not just coming from the camera panning from left to right, or lights, like, swinging up and down. Like, I think there needs to be some human movement on that stage, or maybe animation in the background. I'm guessing there's going to be at least one hourglass that is going to appear, sometime during that three minutes, but, [00:24:45] Mike R: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:46] Mike M: If Denmark doesn't qualify, I totally understand why, but I like the direction this song could take Denmark. I hope they follow that direction, at least for one more year. Like, I think they are on the right track. [00:25:04] Mike R: That's, your ambivalence is reflected in the YouTube comments in the video that I watched of the live performance, which is like, you know, it feels split down the middle of people being like, this rules, they're going to clinch it, they're going to get it with this one. And then every, you know, the other half of people being like, this is, this is boring. [00:25:21] Mike M: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that played out in the results. Like, the jury, which is probably looking at it more as, a song and a product and, like, the musical aspects of it, she won the jury, but then the televote was just like, eh? And, [00:25:36] Ben: and like, the Televote, like, when it came down to, like, their final three songs, the Televote wasn't exactly a three way split, but it wasn't that far off. [00:25:43] Mike M: yeah. Of course, Demert also didn't have much to choose from, but, [00:25:46] Ben: just, yes. [00:25:47] Mike M: but that's another story. [00:25:49] Ben: looking that they are between Austria and Armenia, both of those are gonna be high energy performances. So this is, this is gonna stick out, or just sort of be like a good palate cleanser between those. But it could just be just sort of, just sort of three minutes of, okay, cool. We've cooled you down. Big thing again. [00:26:07] Mike R: Can I ask another general question? [00:26:09] Ben: Yes. [00:26:10] Mike R: Is Eurovision, at this point, mostly dance inflected pop music? [00:26:17] Ben: It'll vary from year to year, like there's usually A mixture of things that are more high energy with some ballads some mid tempo stuff. And like, it's always interesting to see like, what does well and how that impacts what happens in the next year. Because like, you'll see, oh, this did well, maybe we should do something in that vein. Will that be successful or not? Yeah. So it's interesting to see how nations respond to how a previous year's entries did well, because it'll sort of shift the balance of those. [00:26:46] Mike R: I can just, I can imagine a situation where, if you're thinking so much about the excitement level of the audience being the thing that determines getting that side of the vote, then they're kind of just basically an arms race to who's got the danciest vibe. [00:27:02] Ben: nations who are in the semifinals will draw which semifinal they're in and which half they're in, and then the producers of the show will Once everything has been selected, we'll then come in and go, Okay, here's the running order we've selected so that there's like a good flow of the show, so that, like, if they know that, somebody brought like a bunch of props for the stage, trying to structure where we put those in the lineups so that the stage crew, which generally only has like 90 seconds to get stuff in and out. It is insane to watch, live. [00:27:30] Mike R: that's wild. [00:27:31] Ben: Oh, it is, no, like that is, they do so much rehearsal because that way they can just nail the timings. Also if things are going slow they will just like, cut over to the host over here in the green room to vamp for time. [00:27:42] Mike R: Yeah, right. [00:27:43] Ben: But just sort of trying to make sure that we don't have all three of like the very prop heavy acts happening back to back to back for the sake of the stage crew. There's a bunch of up tempo things in the mix, I think because Finland sent something very idiosyncratic. You Karja, who was Finland's entry last year, was kind of a weird little dude, and we're now seeing a bunch of nations go, oh hey, we have those. [00:28:05] Mike R: Mm. [00:28:05] Ben: Estonia's like, we have six of them, here they all are. [00:28:08] Mike R: yeah, they're going to enter the weird little dude off with confidence. [00:28:12] Mike M: It's not just Eurovision that's creating that trend, in the preparation for the 2020 contest, which didn't end up happening for reasons, so many of the entries had a sort of TikTok dance component to it, and all of the acts were, like, showing how to do the dance, and, like, it would have been, you know, Probably insufferable by the time that May 2020 rolled around and things played out differently, but, uh, but then in 2022, Spain's entry had this major dance break, which was amazing to watch, and then the following year, there were a lot of songs, that were also like from pop girlies that had a lot Dance break just kind of forced into the song. [00:28:54] Mike R: Hmm. [00:28:55] Mike M: Those sort of trends are happening. And then, like, the speeding up of songs, which I guess is also another TikTok influence thing, like, Armenia's 2022 entry was just like your normal adult contemporary song, but it got a sped up version and that ended up going viral on TikTok and various other platforms and ended up charting in the US. [00:29:19] Ben: That placed 20th in the Eurovision final. Rosalind, who performed that song, was opening for Ed Sheeran last summer across the US. [00:29:25] Mike R: Okay. So Eurovision is responding largely to a lot of the same market forces that pop music in general is responding to. a lot of sense, [00:29:36] Ben: Yeah, the elements you identified with Estonia is like, what I love to see at Eurovision, of just like, okay, what's happening in pop music right now? And how does the folk music traditions of whatever country distort that? Refract it, reflect it, whatever. Like, how do you, like, what happens when those two things come together? Do we get a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup? [00:29:55] Mike R: which is funny. Cause yeah, like I watched, you know, I watched the Estonian one and then I thought, okay, I could get into this. And then, and then I watched Sans and I was like, Oh, [00:30:04] Mike M: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:11] Mike R: I'm learning a lot every minute here. [00:30:12] Ben: Yes. So, yeah, just like, just like sometimes nations just really want to make sand. [00:30:16] Mike R: Yeah, I get it. The spice must flow. [00:30:19] Ben: Yes. [00:30:20] Belgium - Mustii - "Before the Party's Over" --- [00:30:20] Ben: Actor, singer, and Drag Race Belgique judge Thomas Moosten, also known as Moosty, will represent Belgium with the song Before the Party's Over. As a recording artist, Moosty released his first single in 2014 and caught the attention of Belgian radio stations. The D6Bells Music Awards nominated him for several awards, including Revelation of the Year, which he won. Blanche, who represented Belgium in 2017 and finished fourth, also won the same award. Moosty was one of the first artists heard for the 2024 Eurovision season. The choir heard him before the party's over is actually constructed of fan submissions requested by Moosty. as the track was in the final completion back in January. A similar technique was used in Iceland's 2021 entry, taking advantage of Eurovision's recent leniency on pre recorded backing vocals. Before the Party's Over is written by Ariana D'Amato, Benoit Leclerc, Charlotte Clarke, Lloyd Aloysius, Nina Samprapans, Pierre Dumoulin, and Thomas Moosten. Because of you, specifically because of its singer Gustav, allowed Belgium to finish in 7th place in Liverpool last year. Belgium will be in slot 12 between Georgia and Estonia. Hehehe. [00:31:52] Mike M: like, I like it a little bit more. I think there's just a lot of interesting stuff happening in this one, and it feels kind of like the culmination of what Belgium has been doing the last several years. like, I've tried to figure out how to describe it, and I think I landed on, queer friendly brooding. [00:32:12] Mike R: That's, that is certainly a vibe, yeah. [00:32:14] Mike M: because of you last year, it was like very up tempo, very positive, but there was a sadness to the underlying story of that song. But then this is also like kind of reminding me of like what Hooverphonic was sending the two years that they were competing or like what Senec had in 2018 where it's just this kind of Sort of bond theme adjacent, but like a really powerful vocal on top of that. I don't want to say it's a relatable story, cause I'm not really sure what the story of the song is, but you can just sort of feel it in your bones. It's like, Oh yeah, I get what you're talking about, even if I cannot articulate what it is that you're actually talking about. I am really fond of this one. I think it's going to win the jury. I don't know if it's going to win overall, but, uh, winning the jury would definitely put that in a good position for that to be the case. [00:33:05] Mike R: I, that's really interesting. I think that this is the one, in this group that the most sort of highlights for me what is probably the gulf between, what I am like hearing, and listening, and picking out, and identifying as like different, Good and bad facets of the composition and what a jury is gonna be looking for I'm not really familiar really with with what it is that they are Trying to find you know, it's like watching the Olympics right like, you know, you you can you can usually tell when something is really good But sometimes there's just the judge that wants wanted something else and you don't know what it is I think like the orchestration is really nice The performance is really good. the simplicity of it is really effective from a production standpoint. Like the mix is great. It does all the things that you're supposed to do. Again, in a song like this, it's got, uh, just like Sand, the distant pitch down vocals with the highs rolled off like you have to, it is required by law when you make this kind of song, um, I did, I even thought like the chorus thing is like kind of hokey to me, but I think the drum programming is really nice, you know, you were saying that 80s revival doesn't really play, but to me, like some of the drum programming and some of the drum sounds in here have a little bit of that 80s revival feel to them, which, you know, playing against the synth pads, I think it's very, very effective. However, in listening to it, I really, I can't not think about, I feel like I'm, I might be about to make some enemies here. and I want to say that this is like, not from a place of disrespect, um, really made me think about something a friend of mine said about Jacob Collier a long time ago, do you guys know Jacob Collier, the musician? He makes YouTube videos. it's okay. You're making, [00:34:52] Ben: I may have seen his work. [00:34:53] Mike R: It's all right. He makes, he makes like very good pop music and he's got legions of fans around the world. he's really great. He's great. He's great at talking about creativity. His music is very, and this is what my friend said, competent. He's extremely competent. He knows his music theory. He knows what a song is supposed to do. He knows how to write orchestration that does it. It's competent, which in a way makes it kind of bland. And I think that's how I feel listening to this. There's a kind of bland competence to it. but I'm listening to it from a perspective of like, I'm a guy just listening to music. So, if I try to imagine what maybe a jury is going to be looking for, then maybe competence is exactly what it is. And that, yeah, this is just going to get scored, you know, five stars across the board. [00:35:49] Mike M: I think that the bland competence is a great way of describing it. Listening to some of Musti's other work, I was going into this song with very low expectations, so maybe my enthusiasm for this is just like, oh, this is actually, like, [00:36:06] Mike R: You did something. Yeah. [00:36:07] Mike M: yeah, you hit the bar, great! And it's like, Doing well with lower expectations. It's like, okay, maybe I'm grading on a curve or something, but, um, but in terms of what has done well with juries in the past, yeah, bland competence. Like I think of like Austria in 2018 where everybody was just kind of like, wait, why is this song winning the jury vote? [00:36:30] Ben: Yes. Yes. I feel like tattoo kind of falls into the bland competence as well. So yeah. This is, this is the sort of thing the jury loves. [00:36:39] Mike R: to me, this is like a really good grocery store song. [00:36:43] Mike M: oh yeah, yeah, I would, I would shop at [00:36:46] Mike R: yeah, yeah. [00:36:49] Ben: But yeah, like on, like on my end, have you guys seen the meme of like the drawing of the horse where like the back of the horse has done really well? Like the artist just like really knows what they're doing. And like, as you get towards the head of the horse, it's a stick drawing. [00:37:03] Mike R: Oh yeah. [00:37:04] Ben: just like, when the horns kick in on this one, and it gets into the Bond themed space, the sort of like, lush, orchestral bit at the end, I'm all in. I agree that the choral vocals are a little hokey, but like, I'm on board by then, heck yeah. yeah, you've earned this, okay, sure. The journey it takes to get there, I'm like, okay, come on, let's get there. I think he's gonna perform it well, I think it's gonna get through to the final, and like, just cause it gets, like, look. It's worth noting, a couple years ago, the semifinals used to be half and half, and then, a song got through purely on, its jury points, amidst a bunch of other controversy around the voting, so the last couple years, including this year, what gets out of the semifinals into the final is purely televote. is purely just the viewers at home. What do they like? I think there's enough here for people to latch onto. if they throw all of the stuff at it, like, just like at the, at like, the pivotal moment of the chorus, just like, unleash, whatever the stage thing does, like, that curtain of sparks. All of the big stage things that you can do, just like, just really make that powerful moment powerful. I think it'll get through. I agree that I think it's gonna do real well with the jury. But it could also be one of those ones where it does real well, and it's sort of sitting at like, sixth place, and then, and then like, the talibote comes in, it's like, 20 points! [00:38:14] Mike R: If he can nail the vocal performance, it's extremely satisfying. So like I could imagine from an audience perspective, Really, like, when you're thinking about what it is that you remember from what you've just seen, there's just enough sort of sparks, and the intervals are impressive enough, and yeah, like, it is, it's very satisfying, especially against the, um, you know, when it is a little bit more minimal compositionally. [00:38:43] San Marino - Megara - "11:11" --- [00:38:43] Mike M: Spanish rock band Megara won Una Voce por San Marino and will represent the most serene republic with the song 11 11. The group formed in Madrid in 2015 and doesn't really care to be defined by any one genre, describing their sound as the perfect mix between the sinister and cotton candy. In 2023, Megora attempted to represent their home country, Spain, and finished 4th at Benidormfest. They tried to make a second go of it at this year's Benidorm, even referencing it in 11. 11's lyrics, but did not make the final cut. They had to take the long way through San Marino's process, going through auditions, the semifinals, and the second chance round to get a slot in the grand final. They closed the show and won the hearts of the jury. 11 11 is written by Isra Dante Ramos Solimando, Roberto Lalueta, and Sara Jimenez Moral. San Marino can only go up from last year's result, where Like an Animal by Peaked Jacks tied for last place in the second semifinal with zero points. San Marino will perform in slot 10 after Spain's preview and before Georgia. So Mike, what do you think of San Marino's entry? [00:40:12] Mike R: Uh, before I say, man, zero points, that must hurt. That must really sting. [00:40:18] Mike M: Yeah. It's different in the semi finals than in the grand final, because they only announce the ten acts that are going to advance, and you find out the scores, after everything is done, and they release all the results. In the grand final, you will know That you got zero points, like specifically, [00:40:36] Ben: yeah, yeah. [00:40:37] Mike R: rough. [00:40:38] Ben: They split the jury and the televote into separate vote counts so that, theoretically, we are reducing the chance that an act will finish the night with zero points, and yet that has still happened. I [00:40:50] Mike R: Oh, that just must really sting. I, what I wrote down for this was that this was a perfectly serviceable late 2000s pop industrial track. I found this fun. I think it's fun. Some of the vocal acrobatics are really nice. It has a light kind of almost system of a down feel to it here and there for like these very brief moments, the chorus really is just very generic, really tight. Just takes a turn. Uh, all the personality is in the verses. the chorus is kind of a bog standard, like rock industrial chorus. And I think they could have had more fun, you know, they, they could have leaned into it a little bit more. They could have gotten a little bit more creative with it. Cause like it's there, the parts are there. they pull those tricks out in other places. The last. Six seconds of the song has more personality than, you know, most of the rest of it when they do this, like, very brief dubstep twinged coda. Like, when that comes in, I'm like, what, where was that the whole rest of the song? But I realized that probably, like, some portion of this is calculated because Like I would guess a certain amount of your songwriting for Eurovision is you really want to have something that's hooky That like isn't isn't kind of like strange or challenging or whatever You want to have something that's really just get stuck in people's ears But I think even by that measure they sort of miss out on this one. [00:42:15] Ben: I agree that they seem fun, and I love their energy. And like, there's a lot of, interesting stuff in the mix, brief, flamenco hand [00:42:22] Mike R: Oh, so good. [00:42:23] Ben: throwing that in like the stew with everything else that they're doing at the same time, like it's just a really lovely detail. the chorus is weirdly generic and, I don't notice it as much just when I'm watching the performances because like there's so much else going on of just, like, we now just have neon skeleton twins. there's so much happening. the official video for this is also so fun and it just really feels like it is them refusing to be placed in any box. I like this turn for San Marino. I think this is my favorite San Marini's entry in years. San Marino just seems to enjoy maximalism and rock and maximalism in particular. [00:43:00] Mike R: Okay Yeah, this is that. Yeah, [00:43:03] Ben: Yes, this is very much Brandstand Marino. I hope it's more successful than last year, and I think if they stage this in an engaging way, there's a lot to, like, hook you in. [00:43:12] Mike M: I will send you the video of Akili Lauro's, semi final performance from two years ago just to see what San Marino has sent in the past, uh, the very recent past, cause, uh, yeah, like that, that is what I was thinking of with this performance, just in terms of it. Thank you. Everything was happening. There was a mechanical bull, there was somebody dancing in a cage, there was, leather pants everywhere. Like, there was everything. Like, you did not know where to look, because there was so much stuff going on. this felt like a fully realized idea when it was presented on the San Marino stage. And I think that makes sense, because if this was going to be part of Spain's Benidorm process, that happened about a month before San Marino. So they probably had everything already mapped out, and were able to rehearse that and get everything ready to go versus somebody be like, Oh, I found out on Friday, I'm going to be in the final. That is Tomorrow? Okay, I guess I'll get a new strap for my guitar or something? Like, yeah, I think this has a real advantage going into the selection process. And I loved Megara's entry last year in Spain's process. are someone that I've been keeping an eye on, and I'm so glad that they are finally getting Eurovision. I think this is going to do better. Then San Marino's entry last year, like, I don't think it is as objectionable as last year's entry was, even though I liked last year's entry. I am worried, though, that there is just going to be too much stuff on stage. I don't want to say lose the Skeleton Twins, but maybe have them be a little bit more organically part of the performance, or brought out earlier, or [00:44:50] Mike R: it doesn't really make a lot of sense, [00:44:52] Ben: No, no, just all of a sudden they were there. After, like, a quick change, I'm just like, okay, sure. [00:44:57] Mike R: which is funny, because the music video makes a lot of sense. Like it's, there's a very clear idea presented, but the live show sort of just looks like a white zombie show circa 1998. [00:45:09] Mike M: Yeah. Or something that like was pulled from like, this is Spinal Tap or something. It's like, oh, okay, well, we've got skeleton twins. Let's use them. So the scale model of Stonehenge. My other concern about the band, at last year's Benidorm Fest, their grand final performance sounded really rough, because I think they were enjoying all of the party atmosphere of Benidorm Week. I'm hoping that they are just careful with their schedule, During rehearsals, we, like, take it easy, not too easy, save your voice for the, live shows that count. [00:45:42] Mike R: I always forget his name. The frontman of Disturbed has said like multiple times in interviews He's like being a vocalist is extremely difficult you simply cannot party You just cannot go to anything fun. You go to the show you go to bed. [00:46:00] Mike M: And that's the thing about Eurovision it is a marathon. the live show on Saturday It's very rare to have a performance that does not suffer a little bit, just because it's like these people are tired by the end of that two week period. [00:46:15] Ben: yeah, there is the live show, but there have been at least two rehearsals for that live show. And if you were in the semi final, there were at least two rehearsals there. [00:46:23] Mike R: That anyone is still standing is unbelievable. [00:46:26] Ben: Yeah. [00:46:27] Mike M: and then there's like all of the fan engagement events, all of the press events, traveling, and just like kind of like being under everybody else's control for a two week period, it is grueling, and I really don't wish it on anybody, but it's so much fun. Any other thoughts on San Marino? [00:46:46] Ben: I just think they're neat. [00:46:47] Mike R: I just think they're neat. I agree with that. I think that's a good, yeah. [00:46:51] Ben: San Marino's process is deeply chaotic. They are, they are the most serene republic and somehow they have the most chaotic selection process. Because this is the one where if you are interested, you basically just fill out the form and like, go to the San Marinese DMV and like, perform your song. And if they like you, cool, we'll, we'll see you in two weeks. And then like, they go through a bunch of those. They have a bunch of artists they've, Everybody performs at a venue that is at, like, an outlet mall in San Marino. It's shown on TV, but, there is no televote, it's just, like, the panel of their jury just is like, You! You win. [00:47:22] Mike R: Someone gotta make a movie of this. I would watch this movie. [00:47:26] Ben: I want a documentary of just, like, Una Voce per San Marino 2025, [00:47:29] Mike R: wanna, I wanna meet the government bureaucrat that decides whether or not you get moved forward in the process, and I wanna know what their stamp looks like. [00:47:37] Mike M: could probably track that down for you. I think I still have the links to their websites. [00:47:40] Ben: They're not a big nation, it can't be hard to figure [00:47:43] Switzerland - Nemo - "The Code" --- [00:47:43] Mike R: Yeah, [00:47:44] Ben: Nemo Mettler will be representing Switzerland with their song, The Code. They released their first EP, Clownfish, in 2015, but it was the single Do in 2017 that helped splash onto the scene. The song won Best Hit at the Swiss Music Awards, while Nemo won Best Male Solo Act, Best Breaking Act, and Best Live Act. Since then, Nemo has come out as non binary. Nemo indicated in an interview in November that they prefer gender neutral pronouns. Except in German, where first name is preferred. Nemo is also revealed to be the panda on The Masked Singer Switzerland, where they finished 5th. Switzerland announced Nemo as their act alongside the drop for the song. The code is written by Benjamin Alassu, Lhasa Midsian Neyman, Linda Dale, and Nemo Mettler. Last year, Switzerland finished in 20th place with the song Watergun by Raymo4er. Switzerland is in slot four, following Greece and preceding Czechia. Ha [00:48:55] Mike M: like this, however [00:48:59] Mike R: we are I think we are gonna see eye to eye on this, [00:49:01] Mike M: Yeah, so, its initial drop, this is reminding me of something and I cannot put my finger on what it is. This morning, my husband came home from the gym, and he was like, they were playing, music over the, like, the gym speakers. And, one of the songs they played was Macklemore's Can't Hold Us. And, like, the part where he says, like, ba, Shark Week, like, sounds exactly like that. the rap portion in the cone. It's like, oh, that's it, sort of. It's not quite it. And then one of the things that's been kind of nagging me about this song is that it feels very Broadway and very, theatrical, but not in a pop music sort of way. Recently on Blue Sky, somebody had posted the video of Neil Patrick Harris at the 2013 Tony Awards doing the, bigger opening number. I'll put a clip in the show notes, because it's a fantastic opening number, but, like, Neil Patrick Harris Broadway energy, is a very specific type of energy, and I think Nemo's energy is the exact same. Yeah, so it's just kind of like this NPH Lin Manuel Miranda showmanship that is being attached to this Macklemore ish pop song, and I but I still like it, despite all of those caveats. And we are recording this before a live version is available. I think that is the part that I really like. most need to see to form the final opinion on this one, because it is going to be a very challenging song to perform live, and something that it could be very easy to lean on pre recorded vocals to get to some of the more challenging layers of the song. But, I'm encouraged by the fact that Nemo has previously won a Best Live Act award from a major award giving body, so. I'm hopeful, but at the same time, it's like, is this actually good? Or is this like Eurovision good? I, I, I don't know. Like I, I have a very conflicted relationship with this song, but I'm thumbs up on it. [00:51:11] Ben: Thank you for identifying Neil Patrick Harris. on this one, because like, I find him exhausting. [00:51:18] Mike M: Yes. [00:51:19] Ben: he was in the most recent series of the Doctor Who specials, and he is a very talented man, but he exhausts me. [00:51:25] Mike M: I, like, there's so much going on in this one. We have opera, we have drum and bass, we have rap. everything, everywhere, all at once. what the video too is just like, there's a lot visually happening. I'm, I'm responding well to the maximalism, like that there's a lot of maximalism happening at Eurovision this year. [00:51:43] Ben: And, it's nice, and like, similar to Megara, is refusing to be categorized. But also, how is this one going to work live, the types of vocals are very different ways of singing. And just, like, shifting from one to the other. [00:51:58] Mike R: So I have written down Fifth Element, Watsky, and uh, I don't know if this is maybe not a broadly known act, The Parenthetical Girls? Do you know The Parenthetical Girls? [00:52:11] Ben: not know them, but I'm intrigued. [00:52:12] Mike R: Extremely good. Highly recommend. Go listen to The Parenthetical Girls. the sort of vocal performance, very sort of virtuosic, but up against, things that you would not normally, um, I think would go with this style of vocal performance. My feeling about this is, I don't know that, like, I want to hang out with Nemo. Like, in the same way that I can, I very much can, I can recognize Lin Manuel Miranda's, which is a great poll for this, [00:52:41] Ben: Mm hmm, yeah, another real good poll. [00:52:42] Mike R: can, I can recognize his talent. I don't, I don't think we could be pals. Um, A lot of this is impressive, especially the vocal performances, uh, the operatic stuff, the rap section is like, it's, it's not mind blowing, right? We're not like at Busta Rhymes level, but it's harder than most people would be able to do, and it's, I imagine, more complex than when this kind of thing shows up in other Eurovision songs. But I'm imagining a lot, or I'm assuming a lot, But it's not enough to carry it. Because I think, fundamentally, a lot of the composition is actually really boring. the drum programming is really bo like, it has the most standard, drum track pattern that I think you could possibly get. Like, it feels like a, like a preset pattern. While everything moves around a lot, and there's a lot of, like, cross pollination of elements, there's a lot of mixing of styles, The switching back and forth is impressive, are these moments of performance that are impressive, but they don't really all add up together to a whole that is more than the sum of its parts. it really feels like, compositionally, the idea was, how much can we get in here? And it kind of stopped there. Again, very, very capable, extremely competent, but just like exciting for the sake of excitement, it feels like. I mean, I feel the same way as Mike, like, but like, I'm not a thumbs down on it. I don't hate it. Yeah, [00:54:23] Ben: listen of this one, when we chatted about it, I described it like being a skating program that's, all quads. I recognize the elements here, and that it's very difficult, and they're doing them so well, but also I could have done with a little bit more artistry. It's okay. It's okay. Lin Manuel Miranda is just a real good, because I, I appreciate your talent, but also it is not for me. [00:54:44] Mike M: There's a lot of earnestness there. But the more that we're talking about in the high level of execution that's happening, it's reminding me a lot about the conversation we had about Grease's entry last year. particularly, like, my criticisms of that were just like, okay, this is a very talented musician. he's only 16 years old, but look at all of these different things that he can do. And yeah, it's like, okay, yeah, but The lyrics of the song and some of the, vocal transitions are really annoying. And, Grease did not end up qualifying last year. And I mean, I think there may have been some other elements in play there as well, but it is kind of the same sort of structural issue of, like, look in the mirror, take off one thing and see if you still have something that works. And I think that could, that could happen with the song. It's too late for that, but it could happen. [00:55:34] Mike R: there's like, it's almost like there's, I don't know, I have to listen to it again to know whether or not I really agree with what I'm about to say. Part of how I'm feeling about it, trying to remember it, is that it's like there's almost too much technique, both from a performance perspective and from a songwriting perspective. We are deploying the moves, here's this move, and now here's this move, and we're doing this move, and you never see these moves together. And that's, that's true, but they don't really feel motivated. I think I agree with that, I think. [00:56:07] Ben: well, and like, knowing Switzerland, they did like a writing camp, and they've, they've done writing camps before, like, this feels like the sort of song that like a bunch of songwriters go off to a writing camp and come back and just like want to flex. [00:56:18] Mike R: that is fascinating, and that is absolutely what this is. Yeah, a thousand percent. [00:56:24] Mike M: Surprisingly, it's only four songwriters that are credited. So like of the ones that we've talked about today, certainly not as many as Belgium. Like, I feel like Switzerland and Belgium are in direct competition with one another. [00:56:37] Mike R: I feel that. I see what you're saying there. Yeah, that feels right. [00:56:40] Ben: Yeah, like, they're aiming for kind of the same element, but like, Belgium is doing a lot with less. [00:56:46] Mike R: The clarity of vision there is so much stronger. I don't listen to a lot of stuff. Sort of out of a sense of duty, you know what I mean? Like I don't so like I mostly listen to things that I like either Enjoy know i'm going to enjoy or like suspect that there's like a lot of evidence that i'm going to enjoy it So it's really interesting to listen to things out of this sense of duty Duty because it's like, I mean, you know, because I'm going to be on a podcast and like, I want to have an interesting conversation with two people I like. But like, I imagine this extends out larger to Eurovision in general, like you're going to listen to these things because they're part of the competition and you are, you know, you're involved. And it's interesting how that does inspire a lot of feelings of very deep ambivalence like literal, you know, like, I can feel two very distinct and seemingly opposing ways about a bunch of these things, which is fascinating. Like, I feel that way about a lot of movies that I watch, but it's rare that I feel that way about music, which, like, I'm usually pretty binary on. [00:57:52] Mike M: With with so much of pop music, I mean, you're not asked to rank or actually choose between them. It's like, Oh, I like both of these songs. They're both on my playlist. It's like, well, no, you have to decide because one of them needs to get more points than the other. It's like, yeah, [00:58:10] Mike R: know now. [00:58:11] Mike M: yeah, as if this is some sort of objective measuring process. [00:58:19] Final Thoughts (and Questions) --- [00:58:19] Mike M: Mike, thank you so much for joining us. this was an enjoyable experience. I know this was a lot to throw your way. [00:58:25] Mike R: It was a, it was a massive pleasure and thank you infinitely for explaining Eurovision to me. I am leaving a change to man. [00:58:34] Ben: Happy to help. [00:58:35] Mike M: Yeah, did you have any additional questions? [00:58:37] Mike R: I mean, I'm just gonna, you know, maybe I'll send you a bullet list on the way out. Um, uh, let me think, let me think whether or not there's anything that is like a massive mystery to me. While we've been talking, you have mentioned, I understand sort of in a vacuum what it means, but I would love to understand in detail what the two weeks that you keep discussing are. what happens over those two weeks? [00:59:00] Mike M: Two weeks before the grand final, they'll start doing rehearsals. Each country will get, two chances to rehearse on the stage in preparation for the shows. the first rehearsal is 30 minutes or 45 minutes and, get a feel for the stage, make sure all the camera blocking is working, do a couple of run throughs of the performance, once your time is up, you are taken off the stage, you get to go to a booth and, watch a video of the performances, see what's working, make notes to pass to the technical director, all of that, go through vocal rehearsals with your team, do everything that you can to get ready for the shows, a few days later, they'll get their second rehearsal. That one is shorter. It's like 20 to 25 minutes. And that is enough time to get through probably three run throughs of the performance. Uh, so making sure that all the props are in, place, all the blocking is taken care of. you get another chance to watch video of that. Pass on Final Notes, the week of Eurovision is, where the dress rehearsals happen. So, the Monday of Eurovision week there's a dress rehearsal, Monday morning, and then another dress rehearsal, that evening. That evening dress rehearsal in previous years was when the jury would vote on performances. So, it was a dress rehearsal, but it did [01:00:20] Mike R: It counted? Wow, that's [01:00:22] Mike M: The, Tuesday, first dress rehearsal, in the day is, like, the family show, so an opportunity for people to bring kids, it's an audience rehearsal, and then, the live show is Tuesday night, and ten countries will advance out of that semi final to go to Saturday's show. Wednesday has the same structure as Monday for the second semi final, Thursday the family show at the start of the day. And then the live show Thursday night, 10 acts will advance from that. So there's 20 acts there. there are the automatic qualifiers from, five countries that are big financial contributors to the contest plus, the country that is hosting the contest. So this year it'd be Sweden. Those six acts will join the 20 that qualified in the grand final. Friday morning is a dress rehearsal. Friday evening, that is a jury show. So the jury is voting on the performances that night. Saturday morning, there's another dress rehearsal performance, and then the Saturday show is the big live show. A lot of stuff packed in a very short amount of [01:01:27] Mike R: So, like, when Ben was describing what was going on, I understood, based upon our conversation at that point, that, like, if you were performing, there was a lot that you would have to do in a short amount of time. But wow, it's a lot. It's, like, an insane amount. Like, if you, if you go far in the competition, that's, like, superhuman levels of performing. I mean, you're basically Taylor Swift at that point doing an arena show every night. [01:01:52] Ben: Yeah, and like, on top of that, there is also generally like some sort of Eurovision village where like acts will go over and perform their song live because fans are in town. various nations will, will band together, like, the Nordic nations always do, like, a nighttime party during that rehearsal week. How are you a person, by the end of this, if you do really well, is just, I keep meaning to sit down and go, Okay, so, like, if you're in one of those selection processes where, like, you had to perform your song a couple times there, And then, you get to Eurovision, and you do really well, like, how many times will you have performed your song in full by the end of it? [01:02:24] Mike R: It's got, it's gotta be, like, 30. [01:02:27] Mike M: Oh, yeah, because there's also the live to take performances. going to all the pre parties that happened in April if they, select early enough in the season, they may go to other national finals and be guest performers, during the voting window and stuff I have to imagine some of these artists are sick of their song by the time they [01:02:46] Ben: it's insane, because like, before all of this, you were just some guy from Lithuania. [01:02:52] Mike R: I can't, man, like, I I toured as a musician very, very briefly a very long time ago, and like, I would play, I, I wouldn't, uh, it was just, um, playing an instrument, and we would play, maybe, two shows a day, maybe, maybe, but mostly it was like, you know, you go to a city, you play a thing, you finish, you, you know, go, go out, go to bed, wake up, do the show again the next night, like, you know, You maybe, maybe twice in one day if you have to do another dress rehearsal or soundcheck or whatever. Wow. But like, you know, three or four times in a day over the course of, you know, over the course of multiple weeks. That's unbelievable. [01:03:32] Mike M: Oh, yeah. And then, like, you also have, like, all of the press engagements that are happening, after the first rehearsal, there's a, 20 minute meet and greet with, the fan press, and then after the second rehearsal, there's a more, involved press conference with, international media, and then if you qualify, there's a press conference after that, and then, all of this stuff is being conducted in English, so if English is not your first language, and it's not a language that you are comfortable with, that also adds to the experience. [01:03:57] Mike R: Yeah. Stress. Yeah. I'm going to ask one more question and then I'm going to stop because I could just, I don't want to keep you for like the entire [01:04:05] Mike M: Yeah. [01:04:06] Mike R: Are these, how do these people get paid? Do they get paid for this? [01:04:10] Ben: That's a really good [01:04:11] Mike R: or, or are they paying? [01:04:13] Mike M: It depends on the country, it depends on the delegation, it depends on, like, the broadcaster budgets. Like, Lithuania, I know that they usually get some form of a stipend, and it is also part of the broadcaster budget, like, with Finland, like, UMK, their national selection, that is part of their budget. Broadcasters programming. So, it's built into that budget process. But like Romania's entry last year had to foot most of the bill himself. And it kind of showed on stage because he had nobody to bounce ideas off of. And so it was, you know, Very much the, first thought, best thought of a 19 year old boy. [01:04:53] Ben: Yeah! No! [01:04:56] Mike M: No, and it showed on stage, they were the ones that tied with, San Marino at zero [01:05:01] Mike R: Oh no. Oh, buddy. Oh, buddy. [01:05:04] Mike M: But [01:05:05] Ben: Yeah, [01:05:06] Mike M: there's no real financial regulation between acts. Like a country like UK is going to have a Better opportunity to fully finance an act versus Moldova or Bulgaria, uh, like it, it, it could end up being much more grassroots. [01:05:24] Mike R: Fascinating. Okay. [01:05:26] Mike M: Yeah, that is actually a topic that we should maybe look into at some point, [01:05:28] Ben: yeah, it's just like, where does the money for this come from? [01:05:31] Mike R: I'll read that essay. [01:05:33] Mike M: that [01:05:34] Ben: know when that offseason episode goes [01:05:35] Mike R: Yes, please do. Yeah. Hell yeah. [01:05:41] Mike M: to plug or point our listeners to? [01:05:43] Mike R: the two things that I spend most of my time doing that are interesting for other people, to hear are, uh, Neverpost, uh, our podcast about the internet, which you can find at neverpo. st, and wherever you get podcasts. And I'm also, the, co DM and sound designer of a, tabletop role playing, AP podcast called Fun City, where we play this long ongoing Shadowrun game that takes place in New York City in the year 2102. It's like a, you know, a big sort of neo noir mystery. We've been playing it for a number of years and the team is trying to solve this big sprawling mystery over future New York City. And it's, it's really fun. And you know, if you're into tabletop role playing games, Fun City, also anywhere you get podcasts. [01:06:30] Mike M: Awesome, and we will have links to all of that in our show notes, and I think my husband is really going to like that one. I think he's a big Shadowrun fan, so [01:06:37] Mike R: okay. There's not a lot of them. So, [01:06:39] Mike M: Yeah. [01:06:40] Mike R: that's great. [01:06:42] Ben: All right, well, thank you again for joining [01:06:44] Mike R: Yeah. Thanks for having me. [01:06:45] Ben: And that's going to do it for this episode of the Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat podcast is hosted by Ben Smith. That's me and Mike McComb. [01:06:54] Mike M: That's me. If you'd like to help support the show and access a ton of bonus content, head on over to Patreon. com slash Eurowhat. [01:07:02] Ben: Our full coverage of the 2024 Eurovision Song Contest can be found on our website at Eurowhat. com. You can also follow us on social media at Eurowhat. [01:07:10] Mike M: Next time on the Eurowhat, Ned Raggett returns to help us close out Semifinal 2. [01:07:21] Ben: How are you a person by the end of this?