[00:00:00] Jim: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. Okay. I just sat down with Dr. Jay Carney, and we were talking about small groups in Africa. And we were It's probably not what you expect. The lessons of small groups in Africa, these, like, ecclesial communities, it is unbelievable and so cool how applicable and inspiring they are for those of us who are here, uh, learning to use our homes. And our little bit of free time to share our faith with friends and neighbors and coworkers. You're going to love the conversation today. Take a listen. 

[00:00:41] Intro: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

[00:01:02] Jim: Dr. Jay Carney. Welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing? Welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing? 

[00:01:05] Jay Carney: Good, Jim, it's nice to be with you. Thank you so much for the invitation. 

[00:01:08] Jim: Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for making the time. So, we, you know, we've known each other really not that long, a couple of months. I don't know if we drank a lot of coffee, but we talked a lot over a moderate amount of coffee.
Jay, for those who don't know you, introduce yourself, tell a little bit about your, your faith journey and, uh, your, your day job. 

[00:01:29] Jay Carney: Sure. Yeah. Thanks, Jim. So again, my name is Jay Carney and I work as a professor of theology and African studies at Creighton University. I'm married. I'm a lay Catholic. I'm a father of four children.
All of whom are in Catholic schools here in the archdiocese. What are the ages? Uh, 17, 16, 14, and 10. 

[00:01:53] Jim: So that's great. Sorry. You didn't know there was going to be a quiz. Good job. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I had to think through that. And their birthdays and social security numbers. No, I'm just right. 

[00:02:01] Jay Carney: Yeah. So that's, uh, that's kind of the nutshell.
I've lived here about 12 years. I grew up in the Washington DC area. Uh, I've also, um. You know, I've lived and studied in Arkansas. I studied at Duke University, Catholic University of America, lived in Wisconsin. So, I've been, I've been around, but I've been kind of settled here now in Omaha for over a decade and, you know, really appreciate this community.

[00:02:26] Jim: So, Jay, what's your faith story? How'd you first encounter Jesus? And, and, you know, like the, we could do the long version, but like the thumbnail. 

[00:02:34] Jay Carney: Sure. I nearly died the day I was born. I was born in distress, so I joke I've been a Catholic since the day I was born. I had an emergency baptism in the hospital.

[00:02:46] Jim: That's awesome. Well, I mean, in retrospect, that's awesome. 

[00:02:49] Jay Carney: Yes. So, there's a, uh, a theologian, he's a Methodist, but a dude, a guy named Stanley Harawas, who says, you know, I was, my mother claimed me for Christ before I claimed Christ. And that's how I've, I traced my own faith journey. My mother and father were, and still are, thankfully they're still with us, but deeply faithful people.
My mother was a lay minister, a youth minister. My father was, worked in the U S military, but was, you know, very intellectual, loved to do lay catechism with high school kids. And, you know, so I kind of grew up in a milieu of, uh, not so much Catholic school, I really grew up in public schools, but really a family that was really dedicated to its faith.
Yeah. You know, like a lot of people, I could point to some. You know, some powerful experiences as a teenager that to me made the reality of God very evident for me and, uh, kind of a deeper call to engage that and like most people that journey can have its ups and downs, but ultimately led me not, not so much in college, but, uh, after college kind of seeking.
Maybe sort of deeper connections between my academics and my faith life. It kind of led me into the study of theology and started that at Marquette university. And then, as I said earlier, ended up at Duke and then Catholic university of America. So I, you know, I'm really grateful for the kind of vocation I have and the work I do because, you know, really integrates, as I say, my, some of my academic passions along with, you know, my sense that Christ has called me to be.
You know, in my own small way to be an evangelist and to try to proclaim the gospel in word and deed. 

[00:04:26] Jim: That's awesome. I want to jump right in because one of the things that was very fun, I mean, you know, when, when we were having coffee, we were name dropping back and forth, like, get out, you know them, you know, so we had a lot of friends and, and associates in common, but you know, your work with the church in Africa.
I loved it because one of the things that is so foundational, um, really marks, you know, I think the experience of the, the, the church in Africa is that there's a ton of small groups. Before we jump into that though, give everybody kind of a quick overview, right? Differences between the church, most of our listeners, although God bless you, I don't know who you are.
We have a couple of folks international. Canadians and someone from France. I love you, whoever you are, uh, someone from France who listens, but most of the EquipCast listeners are from the United States. Give a little quick compare and contrast between the church in the United States and in Africa. 

[00:05:22] Jay Carney: Sure.
You know, you could say on a maybe sometimes this isn't always recognized, but in some ways, the roots of both churches are in the 19th century. If you look at missionary movements, both churches start the U. S. very much an immigrant church, but also with missionary clergy really into the early 20th century.
That's also true in Africa starts in the late 19th, maybe goes a little bit later into the 20th century. So, yeah. Yeah, sometimes Americans, I think because we trace our, a lot of us at least trace our heritage to Europe, we think we're old, but we're not, but our church isn't actually that old. Up until 1908, the U.
S. was a missionary church formally. So, but obviously there are big differences. I mean, Africa is one of the fastest growing continents in the world. It's a very, very young population, you know, about 1. 2 billion people, roughly 700 million, 650 million of whom are Christians predominantly in sub–Saharan Africa, you know, the Catholic populations around 20 percent of the continent.
So, you know, Catholicism in Africa is not a dominant historical tradition, the way it might be in Latin America, but it's vibrant. It's growing the fastest growing Catholic populations in the world or in the continent, including not just. Infant baptism, but adult conversion, which is quite strong, right? In many areas.
So the church is still young. I think with that comes a certain, you know, vibrancy. Sometimes it also comes with growing pains as well. As many listeners know, you know. We now are the recipients of clergy coming from the continent to here to, in some ways, to evangelize in our own context, not to mention, you know, immigrants, refugees, uh, and others who've come.
So yeah, maybe that'd be my thumbnail and we can go a little bit deeper as we go forward. 

[00:07:15] Jim: Well, yeah, and I'm just thinking, you know, not that we're trying to create a perfect compare and contrast chart, but you said, okay, 20 percent of the population. Yeah. Okay. Is Christian or 20%? If 

[00:07:27] Jay Carney: I recall, it's about 18 to 20 percent are actually Catholic.
The Christian population would be more like 50%. Yeah. Particularly in Sub Saharan. Now in North Africa, obviously very, very small communities, but if you're talking Sub Saharan Africa, it's definitely a Christian majority. And Catholics would be the largest of those Christian traditions, but you know, still a minority of overall Christians.

[00:07:48] Jim: Right. But 20%, that's helpful. I just wanted to reference that, you know, last time I checked. U. S. numbers of people who claim to be Catholic, practice is another thing, but people who claim to be Catholic is about 25%. So, it's not a huge difference there, but what is striking is the youth and the vibrancy of the Catholic Church in Africa.
Whereas like, you know, the stats about practicing Catholics in the United States, again, different if you're talking about Hispanic and Latinos, but generally the church in the United States is not young. Um, so that jumped out right away. Anything else, like just kind of differences? That caught your attention or that, that you would think, okay, this is helpful for people to have context here.

[00:08:31] Jay Carney: Sure. The first time I lived in Uganda, I worked as a lay minister and a teacher in a, it's kind of a summer internship, but at a rural school in Uganda. And so I show up at this parish and, and I'm sitting with this group of teachers and, and it's really quiet. And then I just blurt out with, well, what am I going to do?
To which, to which, uh, one teacher nods and says, well. You're not here that long. I'm not sure you're going to do that much, but we're happy. You're here with us. 

[00:09:03] Jim: That's so awesome. 

[00:09:05] Jay Carney: Later, this priest explained to me, which as a young 20, something I needed to hear, you know, in, in African culture, the importance is, is that you are, it's not what you do, you're not made by what you do is who you are and how are you being, uh, and so, you know, a good example of this is the first question you'll hear often, especially as an adult in the U S is.
What do you do? Right? Yes, you're defined by your work. Typically, in most places of Africa, I've been in the first question I get is how is your family? How are your people? 

[00:09:35] Jim: That's huge. That's a big difference. It's a relational question versus a functional question. That's right. 

[00:09:42] Jay Carney: That's right. Yeah, it's a very relational culture is very communal.
You know, another thing, even in those early days, and I've seen more, I mean, you'd see lots of women waiting, and then the priest would give them a ride in his pickup truck. Everyone's in the back, and they're going to the bank to get microcredit loans. So, yeah, so the point is that the church, clergy, and others are engaged in all aspects of people's lives.
I mean, helping people to get businesses started, helping them with education and health. Uh, sometimes even protesting political corruption. And so there's just an extent of church engagement across the community. And again, not just at the top government level, but even at the local level that I think, for the most part, goes deeper than what I've seen here in the US.
[00:10:29] Jim: You know, that's probably a good jumping off point. I think in the United States, when we think about the small group experience, we kind of imagine it's like, Oh yeah, that's the thing that maybe happens, you know, Sunday afternoon or Wednesday night, you know, and it's the hour thing that, you know, I learned a little bit about the Bible, maybe, which is good.
I'm not trying to minimize it because I love that. It's been life changing. It's a small group experience for me. If you can, say a little bit more about the role that small groups play in building the church in Africa. 

[00:11:06] Jay Carney: Sure. In Africa, these communities are generally known, particularly in English speaking countries, as small Christian communities.
They tend to use the language of community more than groups, and I think part of that is because of the culture, but also to really emphasize how integrated and even expansive these kinds of groups can be. Uh, in French communities, they're often known as living ecclesial bodies. communities with the emphasis being that this is the church at the base at the grassroots, you know, among the people and they're similar cognates in Latin America as well.
So these communities go back starting 1960s, 1970s. Uh, they were an intentional effort by the church from the hierarchy down to the grassroots to try to pivot from what was almost seen as an over dependence on missionary clergy. Uh, who of course were predominantly foreign, uh, to really empower and lay people.
Uh, this is in the context of the second Vatican council, the call to really live into one's baptism, uh, and also in the context of Africa to decolonize the church. And so not to throw off Christianity, as you mentioned earlier, that's grown and flourished, but to recognize that Christianity is not just in its European husk, but can be enculturated and experienced, uh, all over the world.
And the best way to do that is to empower local people to live their faith and integrate their faith with their day-to-day experience. So, these communities in many countries like Tanzania, you know, Kenya, Uganda, Congo are really the foundation of church. I mean, it's, it's even beyond just. I go to the parish and then I'll join a group.
It's more like I'm in the St. Kizito small Christian community that's also a part of the parish of St. Margaret Mary, you know, if that makes sense. And so, you're, it's almost like you have a dual membership between your, your base or small Christian community and then your parish. 

[00:13:04] Jim: That's huge. And I want to emphasize that because you're saying there's an identity that people find as a Christian, or as a member of a community that is.
just as much a part of their, like the small group or the, the small Christian community that they're a part of, base communities, I love that language, that's just as much as the parish. Does it tend to precede it chronologically in terms of people's experience? 

[00:13:33] Jay Carney: Yeah, that's a really good question. It's kind of a yes and no.
I mean, there are cases where, especially if you go back historically, where the parishes were there. And even in missionary language, they have what are called outstations. So, you'd have the central parish and then you'd have, as you get into more rural areas, you'd have an outstation that a priest would visit, you know, every few weeks or months.
But so, some of those transition now in more recent times, you've actually seen, like, I met some of these community leaders when I was in Congo over Christmas where they have this really large community that's really dynamic, uh, and this rural village. And it may be part of a broader parish, but it's actually gotten to the size and growth that they want to have their own parish.
And so, there's sort of calls for now a larger parish to emerge out of this community. So, and then, you know, other communities grew out of schools. You know, I met one group where it's like principals and teachers started this, you know, with some communities. Like one time when I was in Tanzania, they, they came out of slums, you know, kind of urban areas.
But there does tend to be a local focus. So, the, you know, the sense of gathering people in the neighborhood. Gathering everybody. I mean, reaching out and even in terms of service work, you know, helping anybody who needs help. So not, not even just Catholics, but really trying to be of service to local people.
And that often I don't think it's done in in a negative proselytizing way, but it can also be an even evangelizing way in terms of Bye. Bye. Attracting people to these communities as, as one woman said to me in Congo, you know, people can see if you care for each other and they're drawn to people who care and love each other.
And that's, that's in a way how we've grown. 

[00:15:14] Jim: That's awesome. Weird. Wait. So, so people in Africa are drawn to people who love them. 
Wow. No, that's awesome. I mean, That's right. Man, oh gosh, I mean my, my mind is exploding here because there's so, so many directions I want to go. I want to talk about it all right now.
If you can say a little bit about like how these communities are evangelizing. Because again, I think That experience happens in the United States, but oftentimes I'll make a kind of a gross over generalization here, but it seems like the experience of a small group for many in the United States is it's a kind of restoration or bolstering of one's faith that feels like it's being eroded away by the, the culture that we live in.
Um, and not that African culture is easy, but it seems like the small groups in Africa. Do that. Mm-hmm. They bolster the faith of members, but they also, they have a missionary orientation. Can you say a little bit more about that? 

[00:16:24] Jay Carney: Sure, sure. So, you know, these communities often start within family networks and so working among, you know, trusted relationships.
But like is the case anywhere, not everybody in a family may be practicing, some may be falling away. So, some of that is also inviting those, you know, those that care about you that might, I mean, they may have mixed feelings about church, but they, you're their cousin, you know, and they love you. They'll come to your gathering.
So, I think, you know, other ways, just by sharing the scriptures, kind of, that's a real central part of these community meetings. So often the Sunday readings, but you know, really giving people a chance to share about this. And I think that, you know, I was struck, especially when I was in, you know, in Congo over Christmas, by the number of people would just talk about how the scriptures come alive for them.
And in a way that just sitting in church passively and listening, even to a very good sermon just is not quite the same. So, I think the encounter with the word is very important. Uh, and then music, you know, music and prayer, uh, sometimes more formal prayers, rosaries, liturgy of the hour, sometimes more spontaneous.
Uh, but that opportunity to kind of integrate. You know, different forms of prayer and then to connect that also the service in the community. So, a lot of these groups are doing, you know, everything from road repair to keeping community gardens to caring for the sick to providing bereavement for the dying and funeral costs.
So, I think those sorts of things also draw, you know, draw people. It's also how they care for each other, but there's a sense of. You know, as one leader said to me, you know, it's one thing to hear a sermon about how you should be community oriented. It's another thing. This is, this is a literal quote. It's another thing to start a community garden with people and have to actually, you know, share all that and deal with the conflicts and work through things.
And so, you know, in a sense it's like embodying the message. Yeah. 

[00:18:22] Jim: Your, your potato vines are choking out by that. 

[00:18:26] Jay Carney: Or as one guy said, you know, you know, the reality is if you have two or three people, you're going to have conflict. So that's the, and so one of the big roles of these communities is actually in conflict mediation and reconciliation to both within the community, but also within families, whether, you know, whether that's.
You know, marriages that are strained or family tensions. And, you know, but so I say that because, you know, we don't want to be overly idealistic, you know, human people are people, they have conflicts, they have tensions, people can, but these communities also really try to work on that. And by knowing people and by being right there in the village or in the city neighborhood, I think they're in a place where they can really mediate in a trusted way.

[00:19:08] Jim: First off, I love that. They're human, they have conflict, but I hear you saying they intentionally work to resolve and mediate conflict. Hmm. And it's funny as you listed all of these things, you know, so I was gonna I mean, you answered the question before I could ask it, like, so what do they do in these little communities and groups?
It's like, well, they gather around the word of God, and they pray. Some is formal, some is informal. And there's music and there's conflict mediation and then there's service. And then there's like, well, it's like, that sounds like the church. 

[00:19:44] Jay Carney: Right. And food. Food is really big. Yeah. 

[00:19:47] Jim: Yeah. Okay. So, it definitely sounds like the church.
Here's the one thing that I know these communities. Often cannot provide is the Eucharist, uh, that because clergy are not, uh, present consistently the, the geography and the numbers, I mean, the ratio sometimes, you know, for those of us in the United States who are experiencing pastoral planning, we're like, what, my mass is going away and I might have to drive, you know, a half hour to, you know, to get to mass.
Yeah. And it's like, you know, in the African church, the number of Masco and Catholics to clergy is quadruple what it is here, sometimes more. The distance between a place where the Eucharist is celebrated is much, much further, to say nothing of the quality of roads, et cetera. Many of these communities do not get to celebrate even the Sunday liturgy, the Sunday Mass of the Eucharist.
How does that shape the experience of these communities and these groups? 

[00:20:54] Jay Carney: Hmm. Yeah, now that's an important, you could say, caveat. And I do think there's a... What I said earlier about this interest in becoming a parish, sometimes that's really driven by a kind of Eucharistic famine in a sense. Well, if we become a parish, a priest will be here more, we can have Eucharist more often.
And so, and people really feel that. And I, and I think also, although these communities are lay led and they're by no means are they controlled by clergy, they're Most people I've spoken with, they really appreciate the investment of clergy. And typically, if the priest, you know, there need, at least needs to be support for it.
I mean, if the priest is just hostile to this, then that can be a problem. So, uh, with that being said, you know, priest, it depends on how remote it is. I mean, urban communities, obviously there are a lot of parishes. I mean, you could, you could go to mass every day if you'd like, and in a place like Kinshasa or Kampala, but in rural areas, it can be.
Every few weeks, sometimes every few months, uh, I mean, I was in a community. Now this was a broader parish, but in Northern Uganda, one said, and I think there were more complicated reasons for this that I won't fully get into now. But the, some of the matter is they hadn't had baptisms in two years. Wow.
We're at this mass and they baptized 45 babies at one time. And this. We were actually with an older Italian missionary priest. And so, I mean, just the, the hunger for the sacraments is real. And as you noted, people will walk, they'll ride bikes, they'll, they'll take motorcycles if they can. That is a concern.
And I think one of the. Even among some priests I've talked to, you know, they said it's important for priests to be willing to stretch because, you know, sometimes, you know, like anybody, a priest can get I get tired. Maybe I get a little lazy. I don't go out there. But again, with all that being said, communities don't just wait for the priest to come.
I mean, they'll have liturgies of the word and music even without a priest. Uh, sometimes again, the more formal liturgies, sometimes less formal. These groups will meet. Yeah. Yeah. You know, often at least once during the week, some of them meet every day or every other day. Wow. And I think because of the empowerment of leaders, for example, in Congo, there's seven different lay leadership roles within these communities.
You don't have one person. I think that's sometimes a challenge in America. You've got these great people in parishes. And it's like the same 12 people, you know, they're trying to do everything.

[00:23:19] Jim: Nobody listening knows what you're talking about, Jay. We just can't relate to that. Right, right. 

[00:23:24] Jay Carney: And they get burned out, you know?
Yeah. So, like in Congo, the roles are very, you know, you have a catechist, you have an administrator, you have what's called a consoler. This is often women leaders that provide bereavement support. You have a conflict mediator, you have You know, there's even in some cases what are called counselors, they do like legal dispute mediation.
So, and that's actually, I think, something we can learn from because in our own communities, and we have really talented people here, we have, you know, businesspeople, lawyers, teachers also. And I think one thing they try to do is sort of build on people's talents. You know, what do, what do you do? What skill sets do you have?
What charisms do you have? And then how can we bring that into this Christian community and help? You know, regular people just to, yeah, to, to really live community. 

[00:24:13] Jim: Yeah, that's so good. I mean, you could hear them like they're living the body of Christ. I'm hearing you didn't say it, but it's like they're, they're leaning on people's not just natural talents, but also their charisms.
That's right. The Lord has gifted you as a healer. So, there's a place for you in reconciliation or bereavement, et cetera, et cetera. You really see the body of Christ coming together. Jay, I just want to, before we go too far in this, I want to highlight two things, uh, and then maybe kind of set you up. One is, this Lay Led movement.
It's authentically lay led. There's all these kind of different roles of, of, you know, kind of people that are collaborating together. There's a shared leadership, but that has in no way diminished their reverence and desire and the need for clerical leadership. And two, the distance they have from the sacraments and the beautiful, uh, I'm going to say independence of these small, you know, Christian communities, groups, the vibrancy of that, uh, and their independence again has in no way diminished their desire for the sacraments.
And I think, I don't know if there's anybody listening who thinks this, but I think there is maybe sometimes an unspoken fear in the American church. that small groups will somehow diminish the need or the authority of, uh, those in the ministerial priesthood, uh, you know, our priests and deacons, or that it would somehow take the place of sacraments.
And here we see in the African church, just the opposite. 

[00:25:55] Jay Carney: Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, no, and I, again, obviously, one has to be careful about painting in super broad strokes. I mean, Africa's diverse. I mean, there's a case once I heard of, I think this was in Tanzania, but the, the community got so angry at, uh, this priest.
I think there were cases of corruption and other things that they burned his car. And then this guy, this guy then disappeared. 

[00:26:21] Jim: So, yeah. And we're not, we're not endorsing that, are we? 

[00:26:24] Jay Carney: That's right, a disclaimer: I'm not, don't burn the car of your pastor, but, but I say that because what, what this other priest said to me is he said on one level, that's regrettable on another level, it shows how invested people are in their community, how much they love their church, that they're going to call this kind of stuff out.
Now, with that being said, I do think that. For example, a priest that I got to know well, a guy named Tharsiso Nema, you know, he traced his whole vocation to a small Christian community. He talked about, you know, he was growing up with the scriptures. This is what really where he traced his own call. His, uh, base community, you know, helped provide the funding to get him through seminary.
They provided him with a chasuble and other things when he was ordained. Uh, they provided money to bury his parents when they died, and he was off at seminary. So, I do think that small communities. It's not that it's anti clerical. I think I agree with you. I think that's a misreading, but I, it does require maybe a different way of exercising clerical ministry.
And this is where I think in light of like Pope Francis's call for synodality, I think we can learn a lot from these communities because it's a little more dialogical. Like for example, in this diocese in Congo and Chumbe, they have diocesan synods that meet, and they have training synods with leaders.
And part of that is for clergy to. Hand down teachings, but it's also to listen to people, you know, what, what's going on, you know, what's going on in the village, what's the, what are the challenges? And so I think the model again, and even to the point of the communities providing food for priests, you know, there's some women I met in Kinshasa would talk about the priest as their son, because they're, they're known as the Catholic mothers.
And like, oh, you know, especially newly ordained priests. It's like, this is my boy, you know, like we take, we take care of them. You know, so again, but it's not a disrespect for the priesthood. It's just more of a Recognize and I think a lot of the priests see this that they're not just lords if that makes sense, you know Right over everyone, but they're exercising this.
Yes, a deep respect for what they do Uh, but also to be in dialogue and community With the members and, and to give them to some degree some autonomy to run their communities, you know Not just a micromanage. So, I think You know, as you know, there are these broader ferment in the church right now about how do we think about synodality and centralization versus, you know, decentralization, but I think there's some health in what they're doing there.
And I think, and there's also a practicality to it too, that in terms of how parish life can, can maybe work better. 

[00:29:02] Jim: Yeah. It's the difference in some ways between a father relating to young children that aren't yet formed and capable of independence and a father relating to his adult children. You know, and I'm going through that now, you know, I've got a 20-year-old and, uh, you know, and an 18 year old and a 16 year old.
And as they begin, they're not all the way there yet, but as they. Transition into adulthood. It's a fun change. Admittedly, it's a little disorienting. One of the first times my trainer was like, Hey, dad, can I, I was like, Uh, yeah, you're like 18. You can totally do that. But, you know, where he was like, still used to asking for permission for things and I'm like, uh, yeah, that's just your decision.
I thank you for asking. Um, you know, I recommend doing it this way, but that's your decision. And anyway, it's just, yeah, I think you speak of a health. I want to talk about before we, you know, before we turned on the microphones, we were just kind of chatting for a little bit. There is a, a health and a vibrancy in the African church to, to be sure there are challenges, you know, economic challenges, political challenges.
But some of the things that we tend to cling to in the American church facilities and budgets and ample clergy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, they're not present there, but there is a vibrancy in the African church, and that maybe isn't Thanks. Uh, the first association that, that some, you know, that some of us have, can you speak a little bit to that reality and maybe help us kind of myth bust a little bit about how we see our brothers and sisters in Africa?

[00:30:50] Jay Carney: No, that's a good point. I mean, I think often for many Americans, I mean, their encounter with. African Catholicism is either through a visiting clergy member, uh, and maybe an associate pastor who's helping at your church or, or a mission appeal. Uh, and both of those are important. I mean, even going back to Paul's time, the, the Gentile churches raised money for the churches in Jerusalem that were poor.
So, we need to be doing that. But I think the danger sometimes is sort of, um, it becomes an overly financial vision, you know, well, we have a lot of money, and they don't, and we'll see. Send money and we'll help father, you know, build a school and all. I think the important thing is to also see there's much we can learn, you know, from the context.
And as you said earlier, there's a lot of vibrancy. There's a lot of even institution building there's as we've discussed these intentional pivots in terms of how church is understood and the kind of training. That's not just about. Africa is poor, they have wars, and we need to send them money, so they don't starve.
But it's much more about, wow, their church is really growing and flourishing amid all these challenges, and what are they doing that maybe we could, we could learn from in a tangible way? There's a, you know, a Congolese, and again, another Congolese priest I know spends time in New York. You know, he started doing Basically small faith communities.
He's doing a study of this right now around Romans. And, you know, and a lot of people are like, wow, I've just, I've never understood the scriptures like this. And he's like, well, I grew up doing this in the village. 

[00:32:22] Jim: Yeah. So, he's from Congo. He's in New York. And he's beginning to recreate some of these experiences.
It's revolutionary. And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, I've been doing this since I was a kid. 

[00:32:33] Jay Carney: Right. So, I think that's, that's just again, not to lose sight of the need, which is real, not to as overly idolized. But I do think there can be in America kind of, you know, what the Nigerian writer Chimamanda Adichie calls the danger of a single story.
You know, and the single story is poverty and violence and conflict. And that's just not the full reality. Those things are there, but, you know, it's like, do you judge America solely by political division and gun violence? Like, you know, I mean, you know, most America's, no, there's much more in this country than those kinds of things.
But so, I think likewise in Africa, the, the richness of community life and the church and just regular humanity, I think is, you know, needs to be recalled. 

[00:33:17] Jim: That's awesome. Jay, I want to pick up on something you said there, you know, there's a lot we can learn. What can we learn? No pressure to, like, list it in some systematic fashion.
But what are some of the things that you think the African church has, again, from your studies and travel, to teach us? 

[00:33:34] Jay Carney: Sure. I mean, I think it would be wonderful to, you know, as soon as somebody joins a parish in Omaha, that they're put into a small faith community. And this happens with some non-denominational churches, like City Lights does this, for example, here in Omaha.
I mean, you join and here you are, like, and you're, you have this community with these particular leaders and, and, because I do think the Catholic church can sometimes struggle with just the formality. Sometimes things can seem impersonal. So, I think just to connect a little bit more, so that's one thing I think, I think to remember that the church is called to serve the.
Holistic needs of people. So obviously it's spiritual needs to, you know, to be with people and, you know, in, in prayer, but also to be with people who have lost loved ones or who maybe do need food or, you know, to be engaged in the kind of activism that might be needed in the city. So, I think all those can be done.
Sometimes those locally know the best. So... 

[00:34:38] Jim: Yeah, I would say more than sometimes, most of the time. 

[00:34:42] Jay Carney: You know, in America, we often can make, and I think this has only grown with polarization, but we make everything about Washington or everything about the national and it's like, well, you know, what are you doing in your community?
I mean, in Omaha, in your neighborhood, what, how are you engaging that? And I think. One of the challenges in, in, at least in places like Congo, Uganda, elsewhere, is there is a deep degree of mistrust of the government. And we have that here, but I'd say it's even deeper. I mean, there's almost a dysfunction of government that I, you know, is, is unhealthy, right?
But I, I think with that, and I don't defend, you know, in some ways we all want better functioning government. But with that being said, I think sometimes the church really does step up. It works with people, it does what has to be done, that doesn't excuse the suffering, but I think sometimes we're called to do that too, not just to look to, well, a father should do this, or, you know, the senator should do this, but you know, how are we actually called to, to respond in our midst, so...

[00:35:39] Jim: I mean, as you're talking, it was like, that's a deep part of our history, I mean, I think about, you know, Saint Leo the Great, and it was like, as the Roman Empire is crumbling, the church is like, the last thing left, it's like, okay, we'll... Yeah, I mean, he's out there totally, like, not part of, like, your typical bishop's job description.
He's out there negotiating, you know, with the foreign army at the city gates. And it's like, oh, because it's what needed to be done. 

[00:36:04] Jay Carney: Right. And then I think just to live, you know, live into our baptism. I think that's, we're all called to, one thing I, I really appreciate about the small communities is they remind it gets you out of individualism.
And, you know, American culture in some degree, that dignity of the individual person is a gift. But it can also, we can get really atomized and distance from each other. We make our faith just about my personal fulfillment. And I leave the church 'cause I don't like father's homilies. I mean, you know, it's stuff that I just like live into it, engage the community.
As my wife would say, you know, when you dive in more, you know, you also receive more. And so, I think that's probably the listeners to this don't need to hear that, but I think that's just a broader message, you know, do what you can and enter in rather than just be kind of critical on the edges. 

[00:36:53] Jim: Yeah. Live into your baptism.
Embrace like kind of like the holistic needs and I forget what was the first, first one There are like three lessons that you like you, you popped out there that you see. 

[00:37:05] Jay Carney: Really, I think to try to get everyone in a parish in a small...

[00:37:09] Jim: Yeah. Yeah 

[00:37:10] Jay Carney: ...faith community. 

[00:37:11] Jim: Yeah, connect people. Yeah. 

[00:37:12] Jay Carney: Again, you have to be careful, you know, obviously you don't for you can't force somebody but at least join the church or you reach out it's like, okay, we're gonna You know, we, we've put you in this, we're going to connect you with these leaders.
They meet at this time and... 

[00:37:26] Jim: Yeah, I mean, an invitation wouldn't hurt. Okay. So, so I'm going to take a risk here. I'm going to invite you to put your Dr. Jay Carney theologian hat on and just talk a little bit about like, you know, there's like, okay, live into your baptismal identity, right? Your baptismal priesthood, this calling, what does that mean?

[00:37:47] Jay Carney: I always think, you know, some of the beauty of Paul's letters, you know, when Paul reminds us that the church is the body of Christ, the ears aren't the hands, the hands aren't the feet, you know, that there's a diversity of gifts, but one spirit. And so I think part of that is. Because I think this can be one of the dangers of individualism.
You just start to think you have to do everything. And even to go back to your original point, even for me coming, I came to Creighton out of a campus ministry background, and I had, and we were in a public university and there really was this sense of like, I have to, if I don't do it, like it's not gonna happen.
And right. And then you come to a place like Creighton, there's so many great people, talented people, faithful people. And so, you know, part of living in your baptism is, you know, you're part of the body of Christ. Your brothers and sisters have great gifts and great talents. So, it's how can you unleash that in others, but then how can you also contribute?
And what are your skills? I mean, some, just like Paul would say, I mean, some people are natural teachers. Other people are, you know, can speak in tongues. Other people are healers, you know. And I think that's true for us, too. And so to think everybody has something, I often tell my Creighton students this, like, you have an ability to reach your friends in a way that I never will.
I mean, I can have all the degrees in the world, read all the books, but you, 19-year-old, who are, can touch people I can't. And so, to ask yourself, who can I touch? Who's in my network? You know, what are the skills I could offer either to my, you know, my small community, maybe to my parish, a lot of the things that happen in Africa, for example, in terms of construction, it's people just giving their own skills.
Like I'm a bricklayer. Like I do, I do construction work. I will, you know, I will contribute this pro bono. I can't give a lot of money at church because I don't have much money, but I will give my time to help build this. And I think a lot of us. can, you know, can do that because I think sometimes evangelization can be scary for people because they're like, Oh, I'm, I'm more introverted or I'm not, I have my doubts.
It's like, it's okay. You know, you have, you have a lot of gifts, you know, and you don't have to be, you know, the guy Bishop Baron, you know, or Mike Schmitz, you know, who's out there. Some of those folks have those gifts, but I think all of us have a variety of gifts. And I think if, you know, I think part of living in our baptism is to discern that with others and then to offer up in a way what, what God's given me.

[00:40:07] Jim: Amen. I love it. Our time has flown, but I want to give you an opportunity. You've been part of a small group, uh, in your parish right here in the United States, uh, Omaha, Nebraska. What's been your experience? 

[00:40:21] Jay Carney: Sure, yeah, maybe those guys were listening. Like, like, I'm this guy. So, I have to give some credit, you mentioned earlier, I think, Evangelical Catholic up in Wisconsin.
And they were, I was just out of college, but they were one of the first communities to really show me what that looked like. To really have some deeper faith conversations with other, you know, young adults, it was really moving for me and I think even helped shape my professional vocation. So, I give a shout out to Jason Simon and some of those, some of those guys up there.
[00:40:53] Jim: Yeah, they're great guys. They do great work I appreciate. 

[00:40:56] Jay Carney: Jim, you know, yours and others work with these Live Lent Together groups. And as I told my wife, it's like, I'd be a complete hypocrite. I do all the scholarship. And then if I don't step up, plus I've always found small communities to be life giving.
So, I do, I have led a couple of these groups during land. We've actually kept our group going on a monthly basis, you know, in between just to keep some. you know, connectedness and fellowship. And I think what I, you know, really appreciate is just ours as a small men's group. And a lot of us knew each other, but particularly men lay men often, you know, people talk about sports, or they talk about the, you know, and sort of really have a more intentional faith conversation around.
You know, what's been struggles in family, you know, really reading the scriptures closely. Uh, but I, I do like the model of the live, learn together model. Cause it's not about having a doctorate in biblical studies or breaking out the Greek. I mean, it's just, you know, fundamental questions, reading the text, you know, with each other and it kind of, uh, Alexio Divina way.
And yeah, by no means are we on the level of Congo or we're not. Doing everything all the time, but I do think there's a kind of connectedness. And I know some of the guys have said, and I would share this, you know, you go to mass on Sunday and you just, you really do get a lot more out of it. You know, you're, you've been formed in a way to hear and receive, uh, more deeply than you might have if you were just running in with your kids at the last minute.
So, I think there's a kind of humanity to it that I just, you know, really. Appreciate and, you know, those of us in the group, I think we'll continue that. So, yeah, I hope I hope these continue to grow. And, you know, I think, uh, yeah, appreciate again how the diocese is really trying to push this. 

[00:42:41] Jim: That's awesome.
Most of our listeners know that was my story, too. My life was changed by a couple of small groups. My roommate in college, um, who was, I mean, like, literally, this is before Focus, Evangelical Catholic, I mean, most of those organizations had any name recognition. Like, literally, my roommate was, like, the first, one of the first ever students to lead a Bible study.
And I'm so glad he did. It changed my life. It totally changed my life. And he was so ill equipped, but he just stepped out in faith. He had experienced something himself, and he was willing to share it. And uh, this little act of generosity changed my life. Yes, that's great. Jay, I want to give you the last word here, just to say like, what do you want to say to somebody who's like listening to this?
They're like, okay, probably not going to make a trip to the Congo anytime soon, but. I'm inspired by this, I get it, and there is something close to me, you know, my parish, my neighborhood, my family, that I could begin to gather people around the Word of God. I could begin to attend to the need, but I'm a little intimidated, I'm not quite sure where to begin.
What would you say to them? 

[00:43:58] Jay Carney: Sure. I'd tell them to talk to you, Jim.

[00:44:04] Jim: That's right. I tell him to listen to the podcast, but well, that's great. We just made a circle. 

[00:44:10] Jay Carney: Right, right. Yeah. Where to start? I mean, I think if that hungers in you, it's probably in some others. And I always say that, you know, Jesus would have probably been fired in a lot of parishes, you know, with these comments, like we're two or three are gathered in my name.
You know what? Don't you mean 30 or 40, Jesus? That's awesome. He's not going to cut it, but I, you know, there's something deeply truthful there. So the start with. You know, start with those who are, you know, engage reaching out to loved ones, you know, engaging also, though, with, I think, sometimes both lay and clergy leaders in your pairs, because one of the, the dangers sometimes of just the relational models, it can become clicky, you know, and it can, it can just become.
Well, my friends are these devout folks who do this. And so, you know, there's often others who are hungry. And so that, you know, to ask other people in your parish, uh, you know, can we put something out, you know, just to invite people in? Can we have a QR code, you know, maybe a little postcard in the pews?
Are you interested in this? Can you sign up here? And, um, and then, you know, just trying to think to, you know, you know, find, yeah, the right type of size. And I think often in the U. S. I find like eight to eight to 15, you know, six to 15 good. Finding a place where people can share. One of the things I have to watch when I do these groups is people like, I don't want to be Dr.
Carney. Right, right. And that can happen with even with a lot of people to go, well, you've read this and this. And so, to remember that it's really about facilitating it's. As one of these women in Congo said, you know, the key member of the small community is the Holy Spirit and you have to be able to, you know, your job is not to tell people in a sense, in a didactic way, but to facilitate their encounter with, with the word and, um, you know, to allow people to be comfortable to share.
So, I do sometimes find like pair sharing in these groups can be really helpful. So… ‘Cause even a group of 10 or 12 can be kind of intimidating, but, you know, breaking off and having a chance to talk one on one, giving people a chance to write too, and who may not be super extroverted or always have words.
Um, you know, I think all those things, you know, using music, I think a lot of people are really drawn to music. So, yeah, but yeah, I think just starting, you know, starting somewhere is the key and often, yeah, that'd probably be my initial advice. I do, I was joking at the beginning, but I do think the materials you all put together for Live long together are admirable for their simplicity.
So yeah, it's kind of a low bar in a healthy way. And so, ‘cause I know that can also be intimidating for people. It's like, well, what do I do? But I think building off the Sunday gospels is a real strength to that too. You know, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You can follow the church's lectionary. So, in any case, that was a little bit roundabout, but hopefully... 

[00:47:01] Jim: No, I mean, that's, that is by the simplicity of those materials or by design.
And if there's a risk there. The risk is we're kind of counting on Jesus to show up. Uh, so far that's gone really well. Counting on, counting on the Word of God and the Spirit. Counting that, that Jesus is going to do the heavy lifting. So far, he's come through every time. I'm kind of speaking facetiously here.
Uh, but that is, that is what we, you know, we're leaning on the Word of God. Um, not just, you know, our human ability. I really am a facilitator. I don't need to teach because I let Jesus do that part. Right. So this has been so good. I really appreciate this. If you're open to it and someone has questions, if they want to learn more, uh, they want to go with you to Congo, if they, you know, if they want to take a course or maybe sign up for this spirituality program, how can they connect with you?

[00:47:55] Jay Carney: Yeah, yeah, I should have said that at the beginning. I'm also a director of Christian spirituality program at Creighton and we train spiritual directors, which is also a really, really important need in the community. It's also a really important way for people, I think, to grow in their faith and in their companionship with others and also to reduce the burden on our priest brothers and sisters or priest brothers, I should say.
Don't hesitate to reach out. Happy to be in communication. Can talk to you about CSP, but also, you know, happy to, to chat and can also put you in touch with people, you know, who do this type of work and, and have ideas. Cause I think we can all learn, you know, we can learn from each other. 

[00:48:36] Jim: Can you give us the website for the, the spirituality program?

[00:48:39] Jay Carney: Yeah. You know, I would probably the best way honestly, is to search under Creighton University Christian spirituality program. Cause it's all linked within the Creighton system. And so I wish we had a catchier URL, but that's probably, you know, the best way. And you can find me at my Creighton email is a great way to get ahold of me.
So, one last word I'll just put out, I should have said this earlier, maybe this was implied, but don't hesitate to open up your home. So, if there, if there's one thing I've seen both in the U S and in Africa that I think really reaches people. Obviously, the parish is important, but, you know, getting out of the parish, getting into the neighborhood, there's a certain comfort, you know, in coming into the home, coming into the backyard.
So, you know, having, having that sort of hospitality is super important. 

[00:49:26] Jim: Amen. Jay, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your work. This has been a lot of fun, but I think it's, I think it's going to be a blessing to people listening. And, you know, we, we talked at the beginning, just a small little hope that this would, uh, somehow deepen the relationship, respect and admiration and the ties, uh, between, you know, those of us here in the States and, uh, our many, many, many African brothers and sisters in the faith.
So, thank you. Thanks for being with us. 

[00:49:55] Jay Carney: All right. Well, thank you, Jim. Yeah. Thanks for the time. It's great to be with you and, uh, blessings here in this fall season. 

[00:50:02] Jim: All right, everybody, you know, somebody who needs to hear this. So, after you get done walking the dog or you get to your destination, go and share this out with a friend.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless, and see you next time.