[00:00:00] Jim: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. All right, I've got a special treat for you today I get on the other side of the microphone, in today's episode, and I had the pleasure of being interviewed, by Alex Ely, on the Uncomfortable Podcast, conversations about culture and Christianity. Alex is a podcaster from Christ Community Church here in Omaha, and he and I And, Jed Mullinex and Father Damian Zuerlein all sit down and have a conversation about Catholics and Protestants and what we have in common.
It's a really cool conversation. I want you to see what the Holy Spirit is doing to draw people together, Christians Around the mission to reach our city with the good news of Jesus Christ., very cool to see the respect and curiosity, that, that the Lord has, aroused in our hearts, drawing us together, really experiencing real unity.
You're going to love the conversation today. You can find the Uncomfortable podcast, conversations about culture and Christianity on all the major platforms, and today with their permission, we are giving you the episode straight here on the EquipCast. All right. So, stay with us. We're going to head into the conversation on the Uncomfortable podcast, reposted here on the EquipCast. Take a listen.

[00:01:33] Alex: Welcome to uncomfortable conversations about culture and Christianity. My name is Alex, and I'm not going to intro the normal people like we do every single week. So, no Jess, no Eric this week, get your Kleenexes ready, but I'm excited for this conversation. Uh, we're having a conversation between Catholics and Protestants and what we can learn.
Really from each other in our journey on following Jesus and being on mission together. So just super grateful to have each of you as a guest and we'll kind of go around the table just to have each of you just share your insight about who you are, the context in which you do ministry, uh, and maybe just like briefly, like, how did you come to know Jesus?
Um, I'm sure all of us could spend an hour, you know, in our whole process of sanctification and all of that. But, uh, if we start here with Father Damian. 

[00:02:35] Fr. Damian: So, uh, Father Damian Zuerlein, I'm the pastor of St. Francis Cabrini, uh, which is located at 10th and Williams, just south of downtown Omaha. I've been, I'm in my ninth year there already.
I've been a Catholic priest for 42 years. I was ordained in 1981, so. 43 years. Wow. Wow. Those years go by fast. 

[00:02:56] Alex: Yeah. That's right. I went to Grace University. So, it's like right, right, right across the street. Rest in peace. Grace University. But yeah, I'm familiar with it. So that's fine.

[00:03:03] Fr. Damian: In fact, I just had a conversation with a Jesuit.
We were sitting on the front porch there at my house, which looks out at the Grace campus there, which is now an apartment building. And he was like, what was that? And I said, it was Grace University. Before that it was a maternity hospital. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. A lot of people born there. Years ago.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, how I. Got to know Jesus. I, I, I grew up in a Catholic family, so it was kind of part of my life from the beginning, but I think it was probably high school retreats and early college retreats where the relationship really became much more personal and bonded and, um, kind of began my vocational awareness as well to how I wanted to give my life to the Lord.
That's awesome. Thanks. Thanks. Jed, how about you? 

[00:03:52] Jed: Yeah, I grew up in a home that acknowledged Christ. My father was a pastor, and so from an early age I learned the truth of who Jesus was. I have shared this recently that for me, there was a lot of pain in my life, kind of at an early age that really defined some of the early steps that I took, both of attempting to follow Jesus, but of also living for myself.
And it was in my early twenties, the reality of who Jesus is and what he had done for me. Uh, became real to my heart and I began to live in the freedom of the truth of what Jesus has done for me. And that just, uh, through my twenties led me through a season and a series of steps toward Jesus and experiencing, uh, his kindness in my life, um, again and again.
And so that was a lot of fun. It was during that time that. I began to, uh, lead within the context of the local church, spent a lot of years in New England leading there, and then made our way back here to the Omaha Metro, where now I lead an organization called Within Reach, which is this beautiful collaborative community of Jesus followers who share a commitment to seeing our city, both reached with the gospel, but renewed around the heart of Jesus.

[00:04:57] Alex: That's awesome. And we'll probably talk more about that later. That's really what brought us all together at least. Uh, to have this conversation. And lastly, would you, I feel like I said everyone's name, so I didn't let you introduce yourselves. All right. 

[00:05:07] Jim: So, uh, Jim Jansen, I'm an Omaha native and I grew up in a Catholic household too.
Very faithful parents. Um, fun anecdote about that. I remember very distinctly in junior high, um, having a conversation with my parents asking if we could just kind of set our faith and morals aside so I could have some friends, uh, which they did not agree to, thankfully. Um, sad to say, I had kind of wandered away from the practice of my faith in college.
And I mean, I had a very stereotypical, uh, in a good way moment where I literally was like on my knees in my dorm room, inviting Jesus into my heart. And I did that in a very Catholic way. So, it didn't at all feel, uh, you know, like it wasn't anything that was already a part of my tradition. I just knew I had to repent, and I had to let Jesus in, uh, and I did.
And then I became a missionary. So, I served as a college missionary. Uh, organization called FOCUS, very similar to CRU and NAVS, um, I was really tight with those guys. I served at the University of Nebraska Lincoln and loved, you know, loved the time doing that. And then about seven years ago, I came to the Archdiocese of Omaha, and I lead a team of, uh, coaches and consultants that help work with our parishes to help the pastors, youth ministers, religious ed folks, help them kind of rediscover their missionary identity.
Yeah, and I'm married, and I have six children. Oh, wow. Junior in college all the way down to a five-year-old. 

[00:06:28] Alex: Okay Okay, you're in the throes of it all. Oh, my goodness. Yes Most listeners know but I probably should tell you guys so it's at least fair But yeah, so I grew up in a home where my parents both loved Jesus really My dad had a radical conversion from not being You know, the best, best person before, uh, having kids to like meeting Jesus and experiencing him being freed from addiction and a lot of really rough stuff in his life, which was cool.
And then my, my parents, uh, fell in didn't, didn't fall into, but became foster parents, um, and, uh, here in Omaha. And really the thing that I always saw was there was a lot of pain, you know, and, and a lot of the kids that ended up living with us from various situations and, and the only. Antidote to a lot of that was a relationship with Jesus, you know, um, obviously there was counseling and there was medication and all those at an appropriate level, but each of them really came alive, you know, in a new way when they were introduced to Jesus.
And I was always attracted to seeing that. And I was like, I want to just see this rest of my life, people being introduced to Jesus. Um, especially from maybe those who are most marginalized, um, or society looks at maybe as outcasts and seeing them light up when they're introduced to Jesus. And so, um, that's kind of my story.
I've, I've got four kids and so I've got nine or sorry, sorry, Britain, 11-year-old son and then three daughters all the way down to, uh, five. So, 11, nine, seven, and five. And so, I'm with you, not quite, not quite to six yet, but we'll see what the Lord does. No, there's no announcements happening. My wife would be shocked if there was an announcement happening today.
Anyway, thank you. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Uh, that I, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but what was everyone's sense of call, you know, like to ministry, was there like a moment or a process or to giving your life, you know, more in a, like a vocational type of way toward ministry? Anyone can feel free to jump in, but... 

[00:08:38] Fr. Damian: So, I was in college, uh, at the time and having a great time.
Uh, everything was going well. I was partying probably way too much. I had a very pretty girlfriend and, um Life looked good. I was going to be an attorney. That was the plan. But there was an emptiness. Just, there was something inside of me that was missing. And I kept looking and trying to fill it with a lot of other stuff and it never got filled.
And so, I thought, okay, this is God, um, talking to me. I remember the night I surrendered to kind of exploring going into the seminary and becoming a priest. I probably didn't make a very good decision that night because I had a big fight with my girlfriend and life was miserable. I got rear ended by a bunch of drunk teenage girls and drove to a little place I would often go to pray.
Just a nice quiet spot in the country and said, Okay, I surrender. I give up. I've been trying to do this on my own. I can't do it. Uh, I'm gonna Let you run my life for a while and see what happens. And once I, I started formation, I went to the Twin Cities, the University of St. Thomas, to the college sem there, and they were great.
The guys I was with were not weird because initially that's what I thought. Okay. People who follow Jesus are kind of weird. And especially guys who want to be priests. That's a weird group. But it wasn't. They were just really normal guys, all discerning whether or not this was what God was calling them to.
And they were great years. I, uh, struggled. You know, in the Catholic Church, priests don't get married. Uh, that was all the way up to ordination. That was my struggle was I, I, I really want a family. I want a wife. Um, and I, at some point had to, to surrender to that as well and just say, okay, for some reason, uh, God, this is what you want.
So, I'm going to trust that the witness value of giving up wife and kids is, uh, is going to change somebody. And so, it's worth my giving up what I want, uh, for your sake. So that's sweet. 

[00:10:52] Alex: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Either of you guys want to add more? Cause I think we've talked about it a little bit, but add more to your story to give some context.

[00:10:58] Jed: Yeah. I'll only say this, you know, I, it was in my thirties that I'm sitting in a counselor's office in Manchester, New Hampshire. Working through this very question, because I didn't have, and I was always looking for, when my Billy Graham in the field moment would come, that I would sort of hear a voice and respond that my life is yours for Christian leadership from here on, and never experienced that.
In fact, I got into ministry at the least healthy moment in my life. you know, when I was 17, 18, 19 years old. And so, for many years, I would say I was in theology student by day addict by night. That was kind of my life. So, there was a lot to unwind. And that particular therapist, David Reynolds, Dr. David Reynolds, helped me understand, it was a point of freedom in my life, the difference between my primary calling as a follower of Jesus and my secondary callings in life that really were wrapped up in vocation.
And I was able to kind of let that go and say, I don't know that I've ever been called, but I know I've been called to follow Jesus. And I know I love his church. And what I really love is organizations, teams, and leaders. And where I can find a space where those two loves, and places of enjoyment overlap, that's where I'd love to be.
And so, my story's a little, maybe unconventional in that regards, but yeah, that's my non-call call. 

[00:12:14] Jim: Yeah, that's good. Anything else you want to add about? I love that. I'm really glad. So, I was like, I want to go first when we get to this question. Because I felt like mine's a little bit of a letdown. It's not a, I mean, it's a little bit embarrassing.
I basically didn't apply for law school on time. And so, I was like, Oh crap, I have no other options. And then there was this focus thing, this brand-new kind of missionary thing. And I had one other option. I went to, uh, Mount Michael, Benedictine high school here in, here in Nebraska boarding school. And I had thought about going back there and being like an associate dean.
And my discernment went something like this. I was like, I could go back to Mount Michael and hang out with the monks. Or I could do focus, and I knew my chances of meeting a pretty girl were a lot better doing focus. So that was my noble, like, okay, I think I'm called to be a missionary. I mean, so, and it was a very, very easy, uh, decision.
And I just continued to fall deeper and deeper in love with serving the Lord. I mean, you know, my, my LSAT study thing just like sat on my desk collecting dust. And I just never, it just wasn't nearly as fun as being a missionary and serving the Lord. 

[00:13:19] Alex: That's good. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing all of those.
I'd like to maybe go into, I think there's some obvious, you know, things, especially for most of our listeners that are like, all right, we've got Catholics and we've got Protestants here. And I talked to the beginning, like our conversation is how do we work together? And we'll talk more about how we are working together, but I'd love to just hear from each of us.
Like, But looking, you know, outside of our window into the other world, you know, the Protestant or Catholic world. What do you appreciate? Like, as you look at your brothers and sisters that are a part of the Protestant world, for those of you who are serving in the Catholic church. What are things that you admire?
And for Jed and I, I'd love to talk about the things that we look at. And we really are like, I admire that the grass looks green right there. I'd love to hear it. Nope, no order, but just... 

[00:14:06] Jim: Well, I mean, for me, it was just a zeal for souls. So again, you know, my Uh, so much of my service to the Lord has come in a very missionary context, college campuses.
And I looked at my peers in Navigators and Crew, and they were just really, really good at what they did. They love the Lord, and they were fruitful. I saw lives being changed, and they had been, many of them, engaged in this style of ministry for years, sometimes decades. Often kind of took me under their wing and they, and it was just, so it was just, I just admired their zeal for souls and their fruitfulness in sharing the gospel.
Um, and so I, I kind of went to them to, to learn, uh, on, on the job. 

[00:14:51] Alex: That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. How about you? 

[00:14:54] Fr. Damian: Still some good friends. You know, I think that one of the main things for me is, uh, uh, the Protestant church's ability to, to form disciples who can articulate their relationship with God and articulate their faith.
And I looked at Catholics and, and I would say, well, they're very faithful people and they love the Lord. Can they tell you about it? No. Um, it was such a personal intimate thing that They didn't have words for it. He'd ask them and they'd kind of shrug their shoulders and walk, walk away. So as a pastor, I kept looking for ways to try to teach Catholics how to do that.
Because was so impressed with, I could walk up to almost any Protestant on the street and say, tell me about your faith journey. And they could articulate it and they could talk about their relationship with the Lord. And I think, okay, we got to do that same thing. So, I, I've been very impressed with that over the years and have begged, borrowed, and stolen all kinds of ideas from my Protestant brothers and sisters to say, okay, this is a good program.
And this looks like a way to And then to try to, uh, put that in, in the parishes where I've been so good. 

[00:16:08] Jed: Yeah. And I'll go with what Damian said and affirming what you said, Jim, that. Um, what we have found and what I found is just, uh, this beautiful freshness is the sincere pursuit of Jesus, of our Catholic brothers and sisters, and the desire to know him and be known by him, the desire to find him kind of in the everyday moments of life, and then to make him known through service, generosity, hospitality.
I am so thankful to say that over the last couple of years, some of my closest kind of growing friends. I mean, some of us even here at the table are relatively new friends, but our growing friendships are some that I appreciate the most. And, um, we're thankful for that. Um, I've been inspired by the openness of my Catholic brothers and sisters here in the city and the church overall to coming around the table together to say, how can we in loving Jesus and love our neighbors and make him known, uh, to our neighbors.
And so that's what we're looking forward to. 


[00:17:06] Alex: Yeah, yeah, for me, uh, I really grew up without a lot of formation, habits, disciplines, you know, spiritual disciplines, liturgies in my, in my life, you know, we, we didn't have an advent calendar. We just didn't do it. You know, the Lenten season wasn't something. And then I ended up, uh, doing ministry in a.
United Methodist Church. So not all Protestants, you know, have no liturgy, but where I grew up, there's like, what is, I didn't know what the word liturgy meant or spiritual disciplines or any of those things. And so, God really used that time in my life, especially in looking at some of the, the father's church history to grow a deep appreciation for the liturgies in our life.
That our practices that shape us, you know, they shape our hearts. They shape so much of that. And so, for a lot of my life, like I had a lot of disciplines and sports, you know, I'm like, I know I have to follow these practices to get better at sports. And I really never had that. Uh, equation spiritually, you know, it was just kind of like, ah, this feels good for a week and this feel and, and really that, that discipline, the practice of coming back to and being reminded of over and over the goodness of Christ, the faithfulness of Christ and, and even the senses being engaged in those liturgies, uh, were just something that, you know, I hadn't really.
experience. And so, I've, I've grown in that, you know, from my in-laws, you know, they're faithful at, you know, getting our kids their advent calendar every year. And that's something we do as a family and really focusing on the Lenten season. So those are things I'm like, man, I want that. I want my kids to have those experiences that I didn't have, um, growing up.
And it really is developing a new muscle in me spiritually. So, I really have admired that and love it. And I, I really like. fish. Okay. I'll say that too. Yeah. Tis the season. And so, are you on the fish fry rotation? Yeah. I've been to a few. I'll let you guys know the best in town. Well, I am interested. We do need to name that because we have a lot of curious listeners here.

[00:19:06] Jim: Wow. I didn't know we were going to go this much controversy. Yeah. 

[00:19:10] Alex: And I don't want either of you guys to have to pick sides on that. Like... 

[00:19:13] Jim: I was like, I don't think I can vote and keep my job.

[00:19:16] Alex: Yeah. 

[00:19:17] Fr. Damian: You won't get into any parish where you didn't name them. Yeah. 

[00:19:22] Alex: So, as I was formulating kind of this conversation and where to go, I was actually, I'll be honest, introduced to a new word.
Because I didn't use the word ecumenical, it wasn't part of my vocabulary. And I think in the Protestant world, we don't really use that. Like we're like unity and things like that. So, I'd love to, and I'm probably not the best person to define it. I found kind of on, on the internet, a definition, but you guys can feel free to correct me in the internet if, if we're wrong.
But I think. This is a conversation, you know, that is ecumenical and so has great Greek, you know, um, inheritance, but essentially meaning the whole inhabited world is the promotion and cooperation of the unity among Christians. Jesus Christ founded the church, and in the midst of his passion, he prayed that we may all be one.
Obviously, we see that in his passion in John 17, and he's like, This is how the world's gonna know that you follow me, if you guys are one. And Jesus was pretty, pretty passionate about that. And so, um, in that, what does, what does that look like? How else do we define that for, especially probably our Protestant friends who are like, I don't, I don't understand.
What do you guys mean by that? 

[00:20:35] Jim: I mean, I love that you point it out. I mean, this isn't just something that Jesus said. It's something that he said at the pinnacle of his life. And he prays that we would be one, as he and the Father are one, so that the world would know. And we just can't ignore that if we want the world to know.
And we can't ignore the fact that when the world doesn't know, it's sometimes because we're not one. 

[00:21:00] Fr. Damian: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think within the Catholic history, there, um, Um, out of World War II and the destruction of Europe in World War II, the, uh, the leadership in the Catholic Church kept trying to figure out how this happened and how were Christians killing each other on the battlefields of Europe.
And uh, John XXIII called together the bishops of the world and said, we need to sit down and figure this out. We're clearly, we're not communicating Jesus well enough to the world that this kind of scandal could happen, that Christians killed each other on battlefields. And so, the council met over a five, six-year period.
And one of the things that came out of that council was this desire to work again with our Protestant brothers and sisters to try and Make the world better. 
So, there was an effort after the council to put our best, uh, together and try to figure out what do we believe? What do we, what do we share?
Rather than, for so many centuries what we thought about was what we didn't agree on. Yeah. We started out differently after the council and said, what do we agree on? And so, we, we do agree on all these things. So, then we can move forward at that point. So good. 

[00:22:27] Jed: Yeah. And we agree on the primary things. I mean, that's the beautiful thing about sitting here together.
And within that definition, I think there's an important word, which is the promotion of unity. And when Jesus prays, may they be one, he's speaking to sort of a hodgepodge group of followers who really don't act as one day in and day out. I mean, they bicker and fight and. Clamor for the top and try to be the best and who's going to sit by Jesus.
And so, he's praying a real prayer that's going to take the power of the spirit to accomplish in them. But it's also going to take an active partnership, a promotion of one means that we're actually working toward it. So, what Jesus prayed, we're in obedience acting for. Unity will not occur through passivity, but through the action of followers of Jesus coming together around the table, and not only around the table, but beyond that, around the table where there's food in the middle, and there's life sharing, and joy, and laughter, and with time, appropriately, vulnerability, and tears, and then saying, how do we do this together, um, with Jesus, and for Him, so that others might know Him.
And so, I, I think within that definition, so important, the promotion of, And I think in my life, there's been so many seasons where I've not lived that out well, that I'm so encouraged to be in a season where I think we're seeing the beginnings of that happening. Yeah. 

[00:23:44] Alex: Yeah. And I think part of this is the church at large has, especially in leadership has, has been trying to fight for this for a few decades now, especially, but it hasn't quite trickled down.
I don't think to our parishioners, you know, overall, like I don't think a lot of parishioners are like. No, this is really something that's ongoing and people are really trying to fight for. I, I had probably one of the most beautiful moments of my life. Last year, I had an opportunity to go to, uh, to Israel, uh, which was just incredible.
And we were able to basically get ceremonially baptized, you know, where Jesus did. And it was. Yeah. really weird, but really cool, very dirty, very dirty water. But the beautiful thing about it was, I don't even know where all the people around the world were from, you know, what their flavor was, uh, of denomination or if they're Protestant or Catholic or, But I just saw people and I heard different languages and, you know, people saying the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, I'm assuming in different languages and, and just the beauty in that moment of just seeing all of us, you know, from tribe, tongue, nation, all in this moment where we're under this banner of Jesus, you know, being baptized the same place that he was.
It's arguably, um, somewhere on that river side, yeah, somewhere in there, uh, closer than here. Yeah. It was just, it was a beautiful, beautiful moment where I just got to, again, tangibly, I feel like I experienced this mysterious thing in a different kind of way, which was something I loved. Uh, I loved, I loved getting to do.
So, one of the things I'd like to talk about is this within reach movement, because I think what's happening in Omaha is unique. It's something that I don't think is happening all around. There might even be people. In our congregations that are like, what are you guys doing? Why are you guys having, why are you even talking to each other?
Aren't you supposed to be saying why the other one's bad? And, uh, so I'd love to just talk about what the within reach movement is for those that don't know, uh, Jed, maybe you can shine a light on this and just how we're all maybe excited. Uh, about what God's doing here. 

[00:25:59] Jed: Yeah, that's great. So, uh, early 2016, after about three decades of unity work in and around the city, some leaders, including Mark Ashton here at Christ Community, said, what if we create a community of followers of Jesus and local churches that are committed to reaching our city with the good news of Jesus?
And so that birthed this, what we know is within reach, which we call a collaborative community. We use that word intentionally to say we're, we're coming together, each of us, as we see in the body of Christ, bringing a particular giftedness, heart, passion, set of skills. unique context to say, how can we introduce people who don't know Jesus to the truth of who Jesus is, the beauty of who Jesus is in the city.
As that has grown, it's been a lot of fun. Now I'm working with more than 60 churches, uh, marketplace groups, nonprofits, community groups. Um, and that's just continuing to grow. And now we say that we're about city reaching and renewal. We say, uh, the idea of city reaching is around Jesus's great commission.
To make disciples or apprentices, people who are following him, knowing him, enjoying him, making him known. And then also around what we refer to affectionately as Jesus is great petition. You probably, as you open your Bible, you'd see it as the Lord's prayer, but it rhymes with commissions that works for us.
But it's also this idea that Jesus is petitioning. He's petitioning for us to know the father, acknowledge him. It's our father, us to acknowledge and surrender to his kingdom, work in our lives and to say, may your will be done. And then of course it continues. And we say, Jesus wants us to not only pray that prayer, but to work toward its end.
And so, our heart within reaches to work for the reaching and renewal of our city. And we're thankful. I heard an author years ago, talk about how, when the Holy spirit creates a wave in your life or in our context, in our city. We, we just kind of get on the wave of what he's doing, and we see the spirit of God working in special ways right now that we want to be a part of.
And that's within reach his heart. 

[00:28:02] Alex: Yeah. Yeah. So, from, uh, I think in most of its infancy, it was probably mostly Protestant, you know, so how did the, you know, how did the ecumenical conversations happen where we were like, we cannot get this done alone. Like this is silly in Omaha of all places to try to say.
And we are the chosen people here, even though we have this same, we both believe in the great commission. We both believe in, you know, so how did those conversations like begin and. I'm just curious. I don't know. 
[00:28:34] Jed: So, well, I say all good things happen in London. So, if you have a good English friend, then speaking of fish and chips, speaking of fish and chips, I was invited on a trip to London.
This is one part. There are probably three converging stories or themes or threads, but one of those is our good friend, Jody Meyer. And what God's doing. in and through her and through peers of hers in and around the city, and specifically with Jody, if you know her story through alpha, um, this environment that introduces people to the person of Jesus and lets them explore Jesus on their own terms.
Um, but just in a, in a great setting, great way, very hospitable, uh, invites us to London, several leaders. We're going to learn alpha. And during that time, Jody just becomes a good friend and she's a. Jesus loving Catholic woman who's on our evangelism team at Within Reach and just loves to see people encounter Jesus.
And through that, I met Jim and Father Damian around the table and several other Catholic brothers and sisters. And it has just opened one door after another. And I think each of the time we've gotten around the table to share a meal or to share words or stories. Um, I can only, I can speak for myself, um, and I'll let them speak for themselves, but I just think we found a commonality in Jesus and a growing desire to be together and to enjoy one another and to be faithful to what He's calling us to.

[00:29:54] Alex: Yeah. Either of you guys have anything to add from your perspective of how, how this is continuing, and the relationship has been, you know, happening? 

[00:30:04] Fr. Damian: Yeah, for, for me, as Jed was, was talking, it's, it's Alpha, uh, and our use of the Alpha program and, uh, it's amazing ability to change people's lives. Um, so we use it kind of as an evangelization tool at Cabrini and we've had over 500 people go through Alpha in our little parish.
Um, a lot of people. I don't know, because we invite parishioners to invite in neighbors and coworkers, and so they bring them. And Alpha touches their lives. So, I've seen that work, and then to join with other churches around town to say, what could we do together? How, how much more we can do if we can set a competing with one another, let's, let's figure out how to have people have friendships with Jesus together.

[00:30:57] Jim: I mean, honestly, I think it's, I think it's a mission, you know, Jed, you and I have talked about this before that, I mean, I don't want to offend anybody, but some of the kind of ecumenical movements are, they're just kind of hokey. And I, I lose interest very quickly, but you know, I, I've referenced my, um, my, you know, my time as a missionary, that was my first experience on a college campus of real ecumenism.
And it's kind of like, you know, you've heard that, that story, like the, you know, there's no atheists in foxholes. You know, soldiers are talking about like, man, you are my brother. Cause we're huddled in this together. I think similarly, when you're, when you're engaged in, in mission, there's something about mission that creates a brotherhood.
And I don't think that's just a natural thing. I think it’s; I think it's the work of the spirit. Cause I remember that was, that was my experience. Like, you know, I'm, I'm on campus. I'm a missionary. I'm trying to, I'm trying to evangelize, and I have this kind of Catholic commission. And I find myself having so much fun hanging out with my, you know, non-denominational friends from crew and navs.
And for a while I was like, oh crap, I probably shouldn't be doing this. This isn't my job. It's a lot of fun. But, and then what I realized, I read a little, John Paul II, one of, one of his first letters to the world, uh, Redemptoris Missio, like the mission of the Redeemer. As he's talking about evangelization, he says, oh, and it's, it's almost like this little drop like, oh, and by the way, the same spirit that enlivens and powers our efforts for evangelization.
will also draw us together. It's, it's, it's the spirit of ecumenism. And, and I could just feel that. Uh, and that's what I, that's what I found within REACH. There's something about the focus on the, the, the mission that I think makes the, the unity, it just comes more naturally as a byproduct. 

[00:32:48] Alex: Yeah. And I think we, we already mentioned it earlier.
I think we all share, like, there's the Apostles Creed and we all share, like, Yes, yes, yes, yes. As, as that creed is read. And we all believe those things about Jesus and what the church is and, uh, the salvation of Jesus, but there there's obstacles too. And so, I'd love to talk about, you know, what are, what are some of the obstacles or how have you seen obstacles overcome in your life?
Or maybe, maybe even things that you're like, ah. I wish that my Protestant brothers and sisters realized this about Catholics, or I wish, you know, Catholics realize this about Protestants, because a lot of times there's just misinformation out there. There's. bad information out there. And so, I'd love to just talk about what are some of those common obstacles that we find in the church.
And if there are some tropes or things like that, that you're like, and can I just go on the air and dismiss this? That'd be, that'd be fun too. 

[00:33:48] Jim: Well, I mean, I might start a little bit with, with stereotypes and I may be unique on this. I don't know how I got to be this way, but I, Somehow, like, I think my, my response to a stereotype is, yeah, sometimes I mean, I'm human.
I'll find it annoying, but I hear a little call to conversion in that because there's always a little bit, there's always some grain of truth in a stereotype. And there's a part of me that's like, man, why would somebody think that Catholics don't read their Bible? Right? Insert, insert one too. It's like, gosh, maybe I should read my Bible in public more often.
Maybe I should, you know? And like, and just, just a little bit of like. I should probably share a little bit more of that, how much that means to me and how much that's a part of my life. And so, I, I tend to recognize it's like, you know, okay, that's a stereotype. That's not true. That's not who I am. It's not who we are.
But why did I accidentally give that impression? And I found that to be healthy and good for good for me. A little call to conversion. 

[00:34:55] Alex: Yeah. That's good. Other thoughts. 

[00:34:58] Fr. Damian: So, Omaha is a very Catholic town. 

[00:35:01] Alex: It is. Yeah. 

[00:35:02] Fr. Damian: It's hard to spend your life avoiding Catholics in Omaha because it just historically Attracted a lot of migrants over the years from Eastern Europe and Southern Europe, and so they're here, um, and probably like any church.
So, we have Catholics that are all across the board in their practice of Catholicism and what they believe. So, we have Catholics who are baptized and they, and the next time we're going to see them is when they die. Um, and we're going to do their funeral. And then we have Catholics who are in church every day who have a great relationship with the Lord and are praying and are serving and are deeply loving, devoted people.
So, I, I think one of the problems is, um, is you, you might've met some Catholics who got baptized and, and know nothing else. And, and so then they're your representative, or, so I, I'm a Protestant and I live next door to this Catholic who curses and drinks and never goes to church and lives a terrible life and that's the way Catholics are.
And I, well. Yeah, they bear the name, but they certainly are not representative of, so I think we, we probably all have experiences of people who don't represent well their tradition and their faith life. And yeah, it's a problem. 

[00:36:28] Jed: Well, and I appreciate what both of you're saying. And I think that's part of what has drawn me so much into the friendship and the conversation is you could have taken everything that Damian and Jim said there and insert protestant. I don't use the word a lot. We'll get around to why that is. Yeah. And have the same exact conversation. In fact, Peter Kreeft talks about not judging Catholics by the Catholic across the street, right? That you met. So don't judge Catholicism by a Catholic in the same way. Don't judge non-Catholicism, Protestantism, non-denominationalism by your non-denominational uncle.
Um, I think you take these issues and you put humanity. Okay. And where you have humanity. Broken, created for good, broken by sin. Redeemed by Christ. And for those who have responded by faith on journey with Jesus, to become the fullness of who he created them to be, you're gonna find a large spectrum of where we are.

[00:37:20] Jim: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:37:21] Jed: um, in our, um, restoration process into the image of Jesus. And so, um, the easy thing for us to do would be able to stereotype instead. I think what's beautiful here across the table and what we're finding here in Omaha is we're finding commonality, and most importantly, finding commonality in Jesus.
And his vision for us as his people, um, to be the humans or the people, the sons and daughters he called and created us to be. So yeah, I would agree. I think it's great to be able to name that because we could just then plug and play Protestant, human, Christian, whatever it might be into that. 

[00:37:55] Alex: One of the things that drives me crazy about people, especially.
I'm trying to be wise, okay, through the spirit, self-control, spirit, let me have self-control. One of the things that drives me crazy, I was like, you could finish that sentence a thousand ways. Sometimes, uh, you know, people will get baptized at Christ Community, they'll, they'll make, you know, hey, I'm serious about following Jesus.
I would say maybe they were a fan before, now they're deciding, I'm really going to follow this guy and not just, you know, be on the fringe. And so, they'll make that decision. We'll say, hey, you should, you should be baptized and declare that. And so, we want people's testimonies. We want. We believe that there's power in people's testimonies and sharing that.
And one of the things people would say sometimes is, well, I was raised Catholic, but, you know, and there was always this, this kind of, but of like, I was baptized as a baby, but I didn't actually follow Jesus. And like, like that's the church's fault, you know, and like they're like, and it, it sheds, you know, in a negative light, you know, what it means to be Catholic, what it means to follow Jesus, what, what, what it meant at their baptism when their parents were faithfully making, you know, that decision for them, I want to raise them in the church and in the faith.
And, and so it kind of shifts the blame. And then we hear that enough inside of our circles and we're like, yeah, that's dumb, you know? And, and so, uh, we, and so I'm like, no, it has nothing to do with you being baptized as an infant. And then you just, and the, and the Catholic church messed up. It's like you, it's somewhere in that you made your own decisions.
Thank God that whatever brought you back to Jesus has brought you back to Jesus. But I think it's just one of those, maybe those tropes that sometimes we lean into as if it was, you know, they destroyed it and it's us versus them. And I think even language like that matters because it creates an us versus them kind of mentality inside of people.
And so, as we get to share those testimonies, it's. It's, and it's a discipleship process to help work people through that conversation. And, but the more and more we do it and the more and more we perpetrate that and propel that in the church, you know, the more and more like it just becomes, Oh, normative and okay.
And then it creates these barriers that don't have to be there, uh, and distinctions that don't have to be there. And so that's one of those things that drives me crazy. Uh, sometimes. 

[00:40:13] Jim: Thank you for saying thank you, Alex. I mean, because that's not, I mean, it's a very human thing when someone is sharing their testimony.
You know, to, to recognize I missed something, but I missed something because I missed it or because it was somehow denied for me. I mean, that was, that was very, it could have very easily been my story. Um. I was raised very, you know, a faithful Catholic to know and love Jesus, walked away from it, and I just happened to find Jesus again in my Catholic context.
But when I look back, most of the, most of the walking away was my, was my fault. I wasn't, you know, and every religious context has people, you know, who do stuff that That's not helpful. Yeah. And there was some of that, but mostly it was on me. I walked away. I missed it. And now I look back. It's like, Oh man, he was there the whole time.
Uh, and I was the one, you know, walking away and, uh, refusing to receive the invitations I was, I was being given. Yeah, that's good. Anyway. Thank you for a perspective. 

[00:41:14] Alex: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm curious. Um. Man, we could go on all day, so I'm gonna have to skip a few of these questions, uh, and maybe schedule another time.
Um, how can we learn from each other? You know, as, as Catholics and Protestants, I think we're talking a lot about that, but stay true. Like there are some distinguishing what we would call differences or, you know, theological, you know, things that, Hey, we don't land exactly in the same spot and none of those again are part of that Apostles Creed.
So how do we stay true to, Hey, what our church has called us to and church history and the people that we trust that are our spiritual leaders. How do we stay true to that? Yeah. And say, Hey, but working together isn't denying, you know, all of those aspects of what we believe in, what we've found to be truth from faithful study of scripture and the spirit speaking to us and inviting us into those convictions.

[00:42:10] Fr. Damian: I can just tell a story of what, what, what's happening at Cabrini. So, we have these, um, Cabrini communities that meet monthly, small faith sharing groups, and we're always looking for. material to use with them. And one of the places that I've found fascinating for me, uh, recently, um, is with this Bridgetown Church out in Portland, Oregon, and Tyler Staten, and before him, John Mark Comer, um, who do a tremendous job of mining the Christian tradition, which is so much a part of what it means to be Catholic.
So, the early church fathers and the monasteries and all that we can learn from that tradition and, but they're approaching it with a freshness that, because I had, you know, semester after semester in seminary learning this stuff. And I think, well, okay, this is not really all that exciting, but they are approaching it with a.
with a freshness. Um, and so that it helps me then to look at, at our tradition together from their eyes. So, we're actually using Tyler's book, um, praying like monks, living like tools for this next season. And so we bought books for everybody in the parish and we'll be reading it together to learn how, what to, to, pray to pray in the way that is the Christian tradition, but it's, but it's coming from, you know, a young Protestant pastor in Portland who's helping us see it, but we've no, but with fresh eyes.

[00:43:54] Alex: So, my community group, my small group went through, I mean, that was the best book I read last year. And so, it's just fun. I mean, again, so fun to hear, you know, that, and again, it's like one of those things that drew me back into like. No, this makes sense, you know, and this idea of faithfully praying and consistently praying and not just.
Popcorn praying whenever it felt like it, you know, but building that muscle and that discipline. So, I mean, that even is like, that's so cool. 

[00:44:22] Jim: I have to tell a story too, because, you know, my friends with crew, we had a time where we got together, we shared meals and we're sharing stories, and we have all the staff together.
And part of my, I would say, I'll call it my intellectual conversion. you know, because I had a very kind of deep, profound moment with the Lord. But then as my mind is being converted, uh, I came across an ancient text, St. Athanasius. Um, yeah, I don't even know the year. It's, it's, it's been a minute. He's, I don't know, four hundreds or, I mean, he's St.
Athanasius on the incarnation. And as we're hanging out, you know, with crew, we're sharing a meal, we're talking and. All of the crew staff were together reading St. Athanasius on the Incarnation. And I'm like, that book changed my life. Like, I wouldn't be here were it not for the book. We're like, we know, isn't it awesome?
And it's just like, and so I think the rediscovery that, uh, maybe non-denominational Protestants are finding in some of the early church fathers and liturgical traditions and some of those disciplines, that, that's a joy for us as Catholics, and it helps us, like, Oh, yeah, but recognize how beautiful it is because, uh, yeah, I mean, cause we weren't maybe recognizing how powerful it is.

[00:45:38] Jed: It's good. So good. Alice, repeat that. Repeat your question. Cause I had a thought and then such good sharing. 

[00:45:45] Alex: That is a great thing because I think I merged a few questions. So, uh, no, well, how can we, how can we? Learn, how can we continue to like we're learning from each other? We're acknowledging that but how do we stay fate do that without saying and we're abandoning everything, you know, in our, in our core tenants or core doctrines or beliefs that might differ.

[00:46:04] Jed: Yeah. So, for me, a couple of things help. And then I'll come back around to my reading list because I think that is so important. I don't want to underestimate that practically. I think it's really important. And I alluded to a moment ago that we keep. The narrative of history as we know it in mind, as God reveals it, that God creates the world, all of humanity is good.
Sin, we know, disrupts, destroys, divides, disintegrates, soils, stains. God in his love calls us back, comes to us in the person of Jesus. And then brings us back into his family. And now we're walking this journey together toward his great grand vision for humanity. Again, I think the reason that's important is because the beginning of the narrative, as we know it, Genesis.
God creates, and it's good. We come to the end of the narrative, and it's good and beautiful and whole and put back together. And I'm convinced that in heaven there won't be any Protestants, because at the root of, and I think there's something for us to learn, definitely, and there's a humility, kind of, that's appropriate for non-Catholics, is we won't be protesting anything in heaven.
Um, we'll actually be for Jesus and one another. You see that most clearly in Revelation chapter 21. And so, because of that, what we should see in between the bookends of the life and of our lives are the reality that we're created as good, sins, destroying, disrupting on and on. But Jesus is putting that together.
And the more he puts that together, the more we should be for not against. Now, what that looks like in our lives for me is less about a focus on obstacles and more what I perceive to be an opportunity to learn from each other. And I think if the Holy Spirit can cultivate that posture, the more we find in common with one another, the less significant those obstacles are.
So, for me, practically, um, four really important reads kind of around this time of the year for me have become C. S. Lewis and his works, and one of those at the top is Mere Christianity that I think every follower of Jesus who can read should spend time in at least once a year. Another one, um, would be, uh, Catholic Christianity.
by Peter Kreeft, and then I referenced another book that he wrote, and then I'm coming up on it. This was a great gift by Jody Meyer. I've mentioned to you guys both, but Cardinal Raniero Canticle Mesa called the power of the cross, which of course he's the, he preaches to the Pope every year, preacher of the papal household and 40 of his sermons, 1982 to 2005.
1980 to 2020, and just the richness of the good news of Jesus, who he is, what he's done for us. God incarnate, God in the flesh, uh, in Jesus Christ. And so, I'm finding this season, um, the best way to identify, but overcome obstacles to see the opportunity to be around the table together. recognizing in the narrative of life that God's invited us into, he is making all things new and there will come a day when we don't protest.
So, I'd rather practice a non-Protestant life today while being faithful to Jesus in the process.

[00:49:11] Jim: Yeah, man, I just, if I can build off that, like, I mean, it's hilarious because My experience, like, in answer to your question, Alex, is the deeper I dive into the heart of my tradition, the more open I am to, uh, my non Catholic brothers and sisters.
And what I mean by that is, like, I went and bought, you know, Canto La Mesa's book because of Jed's recommendation. And, reading the Preacher to the Papal Household, diving into Scripture, really coming to liturgical worship as a beggar. Um, I've had, I've had some like evangelical friends are like, wow, you're like really evangelical for a Catholic.
I'm like, I know, but I think it's because I am a Catholic and don't take this the wrong way. But You guys are like some of the best Catholics I know. Because when you really dive into the heart of your tradition, like what does the heart of Jesus ache for? I mean, he says, I thirst. And of course, that's about the physical deprivation that he's experiencing on the cross, but he's thirsting for souls.
And like when we, when we really get to the heart of Jesus, when we really get to the heart of our traditions. That's where we find ourselves standing, standing next to each other. So that's it. My experience has been the more I am really at the heart of my tradition, uh, ironically the closer I am to Jed and Alex.

[00:50:45] Alex: That's so cool. Yeah. One of the things. And one of our hopes in this podcast is not to have a conversation where we're just getting everybody's positions, you know, even more firmly in the sands because we don't need to work at that. A lot of people, yeah, there's, there's enough of that going on, but realizing that I don't think Jesus is as interested in you solidifying your position as he is, and you changing your posture, you know, towards people and it takes conversations.
I mean, Jesus’s posture towards a lot of people was. Different than my posture towards them many times, especially those who are, you know, on the outskirts of society or those that, that I want to write off oftentimes. And I think he's trying to convince me and over and over, like, no, you being so bent. tight about your position is what's keeping you from having the right posture that I want you to have towards these people.
And he tries to shake me with that so many times. And that's, that's the heart of, you know, why, you know, this podcast exists is to have these conversations and get people to think deeper. And, and no, we always say this language matters. You know, there's so many things. That happened in our culture. So many words that are out there that we can both be speaking the same exact word and meaning something fully different.
And so, context and language matters. And so even bringing up some of that language and what does it mean to be Protestant? Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The root of that is to protest. That's not a good thing, you know, uh, or for some people, it's the best thing ever, you know, and so those things really matter. So... 

[00:52:15] Jed: Yeah, let me, Alex, just run with that because it's, it's very easy for us to stay up here in the conversation and I would encourage everyone who's listening to maybe. Take a step in on this because what we want to encourage is what could each of us do in our day to day lives. Um, we were in Oxford a couple of years ago on this visit to England and one of the places I wanted to come to was the place where CS Lewis sat around the table with Jarrah Tolkien and the Inklings and things like that.
Did you know they closed that? It's closed for good. Right before COVID they had closed it. Uh, to do a renovation, ran out of money, sold it. It's just this shell of a space, right? It was sad. I had a tear, and we took a photo and, I mean, it was a beautiful but really hard day because I had dreamt of going to, uh, the baby and, uh, I can't remember what it's called.
 I'm going to have a moment. Anyway, um, I was thinking that there was this moment where, uh, CS Lewis and Jaro Tolkien and some of the other inklings, you know, and various faith traditions would come together, and they would typically come around the table of food and drink and. You know, if you know, CS Lewis, always a pipe and they would share stories and they would explore together and they would share their own creations of writing and narrative and poetry and prose and everything in between.
And, you know, so we're certainly not the inklings and we're not living in Oxford, but if we could just take that little slice of, of reality and the thirties, forties, fifties, and then plop it into our world in Omaha, Nebraska. I think there's a need for us before we go too far in the conversation of championing differences for us to seek opportunities to embrace similarities.
And I think we can take a little cue from them that where they really experienced richness together was around the table, over food, with good drink. If necessary, a pipe in hand, but sharing what was happening in their lives and sharing what they were learning and creating and opening their lives in a space of vulnerability for others to speak into that.
And honestly, as they did that, each of them became more and more like Jesus. So practically, when's the last time you had a friend who's. Has a faith tradition other than you and you've shared a meal with them and you've invited them into your life And I think those are the early steps of every follower of Jesus regardless where you're at in the conversation that we should be seeking and pursuing and Once we do I think then we can begin to say now tell me about your life and why you believe this.
Yeah, Tell me more about how you understand this from your faith tradition, and we explore together. I think we find more and more that we have in common. 

[00:54:56] Fr. Damian: So good. Right. Yeah, I would agree. It's a beautiful thing to 

[00:54:59] Alex: do. But that takes so much humility, Jed. That's so difficult, you know, especially in our I mean, that's the posture of Jesus, Philippians 2, you know, and he left what he could have considered equality with God, something he didn't grasp for it, but took on the form of a servant.
And that takes, that takes work. It's not easy, you know, work. And so that's so good. But I think that's what keeps us from it is humility is such a lost art, especially sadly. 

[00:55:28] Fr. Damian: But I think some people are just afraid. Yeah. Fear. You know, the thing that Jesus keeps saying is don't be afraid, don't fear. Don't be afraid.
Don't fear. Uh. If I know my own tradition, I don't have to be afraid of yours or the questions you have for me and some, maybe it should inspire some of my folks to, to learn more so that they can have the conversation because they're, they don't, they're afraid they don't know.

[00:55:54] Jim: Yeah. Well, and, and just conversation.
And story. There's an author that I really appreciate, uh, Sherry Waddell, um, and she has this line. It's in the context of evangelization, but she says, never settle for a label. Always insist on a story, you know, and, and just to say like, okay, so you're a Protestant, you're a Catholic. What's your story? I mean, just start there, ask that over conversation and have some good food in front of you.

[00:56:23] Alex: That's so good. Well, we have blown already past, you know, our allotted time. So, I want to honor that. And, uh, man, this has been just a blessing conversation for me to be sharpened by each of you all. And hopefully for the listener, a place where it creates some curiosity and invitations as we've all invited.
Go do it. You know, it's easy to be like, yeah, I need to do that. I need to go reach out to my neighbor. I need to put it on our checklist to do sometime this year but do it like do it this week. Send that text right now. Don't wait. If you're driving and listening, then wait, please. But, uh, send that text, uh, to somebody and be courageous and, and reach out.
And I think God's going to use that to bless you. You're going to hear Jesus and somebody else. And, and you're going to be ministered to this. Like I have been today. And so exactly. Yeah. Thank you all. Is there any other like parting thought that you're like, all right, I prepared this. I've got a speech ready.
I need to make sure people hear this before I leave anything. So, there's some words that my kids really, because I know we work into the, no, I don't have, I put way too much into our, our outline than we could cover today, kind of purposefully, but I want to make sure that if you had anything to honor that. 

[00:57:32] Jed: You know, I'll just offer this and you guys, please, this how you want. But what I'm finding is that the more my friendship grows with specifically you, Jim and Damian, and then with others in your tribe, the more I desire that. 240, 000 Catholics in the Omaha Archdiocese. So, if you imagine a 500,000-piece puzzle. If you're trying to see the fullness of the body of Christ, minus 240, 000 pieces, you're probably missing something.
And as I kind of weighed into these relationships, joy, eagerly, not reluctantly, I'm finding, um, like a commonality and a friendship that I think my heart has been longing for, and I didn't always know that, I'm realizing that now for a long time, and I'm eager for more, and I'm eager for what God will do in and through us and those that we love and serve, um, as a result of that.
So, my encouragement to anyone listening is, um, see the fullness of the body of Christ, and there's part of it if we deny entrance into our lives and the conversation of the brothers and sisters in Jesus of various faith traditions. We're missing out on the fullness of what Jesus has planned for us. And so that's our heart for the city.

[00:58:47] Alex: Love it. Love it. 

[00:58:48] Jim: Amen. 

[00:58:48] Fr. Damian: Great. 

[00:58:49] Alex: Well, I'd love to ask you, Father Damian, to just pray and close our conversation together, if you would do that. And then, uh, we'll hit stop recording and then go from there. So 

[00:58:59] Fr. Damian: Be happy to.

[00:59:00] Alex: Thank you. 

[00:59:02] Fr. Damian: Well, God of the universe, but God ever close to us, God who took on our human flesh to let us know we were loved.
We always turn to you and thank you for. Inviting us to be part of your family, inviting us to share your kingdom, inviting us to be disciples of yours and trusting us in that. So, we praise you for that and continue to ask your spirit to accompany us as we do so with great love and joy. 

[00:59:30] Alex: Amen. 

[00:59:31] Jed: Amen. 

[00:59:32] Fr. Damian: Amen.

[00:59:33] Alex: Amen. Well, thank you. Those who listened today to our conversation, if you have any more. Ideas of what we should talk about comments, anything like that. You can reach us podcast at CCC Omaha dot O R G find us on social media at CCC OMA podcast. Yeah, that's it. Usually, Eric does this. So, forgive me if I'm wrong, everybody.
And until next time, we'll see you then.