[00:00:00] Jim: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. I have a great conversation for you today. I just sat down with Katherine Burow of the Abortion Dialogue Academy. Katherine trains people to talk about the most controversial issues. abortion with strangers. And today we're going to kind of like take a spin on things.
We're going to have Katherine talk about how do you talk to people about more ordinary stuff when it feels hard and scary. She trains people to have difficult conversations in the most extreme conditions. And she's going to walk you through today, how to have difficult conversations. Take a listen. 

[00:00:38] Intro: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

[00:00:57] Jim: Welcome to the EquipCast, Katherine Burrow. How are you? 

[00:01:00] Katherine: I'm good. Happy to be here. 

[00:01:01] Jim: Good. Okay. So welcome back. I should have said, because you are a return guest to the EquipCast. Katherine, your day job. You run and founded, I believe, the Abortion Dialogue Academy. We're going to talk a lot about that. For now, just give people a little thumbnail sketch to kind of set us up for just the advice that you can give generally about how to handle difficult conversations because that's kind of your bailiwick.

[00:01:27] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. So, we're a prolife nonprofit and we teach a seven-minute prolife argument that on average persuades one in five prochoice people to be prolife. 

[00:01:36] Jim: Wait, wait, one in five, that's 20%, isn't it? 

[00:01:39] Katherine: That is 20%. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:01:41] Jim: That's impressive. 

[00:01:42] Katherine: Yeah. And so, we, what we do is we try to get that argument in front of as many prochoice people as possible.
We have a college program. We have a youth program where we do presentations for high schools, middle schools, and youth groups. Um, and then we also have a podcast called prolife in seven minutes. 

[00:01:55] Jim: Yes. Although the podcast is long, there's longer than seven-minute episodes, just so we're not advertising falsely.

[00:02:01] Katherine: It is. It's the seven-minute argument is what it is referencing. I don't think I've ever made a seven-minute episode. It takes longer for me to talk about persuading people than to actually persuade people. 

[00:02:11] Jim: I was going to say the same thing. I was actually going to say I never made it, but I actually have made a seven-minute episode.
Uh, it's a different thing. It wasn't, it wasn't an interview anyway. So, you get to train people to talk to total strangers about one of the most contentious issues of our day, abortion. Talk about, like, how your work with the Abortion Dialogue Academy, what did it teach you about having difficult conversations?

[00:02:38] Katherine: Yeah, it's funny, the number of times that I train people and then they're like, oh, I could use this in my marriage, I could use this with 18 other different controversial topics. And I think it's because there's some, there's obviously some things that are specific to the abortion debate, like particular arguments, but there's principles of persuasion that are pretty much universal.

[00:02:57] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:02:58] Katherine: One of the main ones that I think people get wrong is the importance of keeping the conversation calm. And not just like, I'm calm, why are you freaking out, prochoice person, but actually keeping the choice person calm. Because, interestingly enough, we're not really good thinkers when we're agitated.
I don't know if you've ever... 

[00:03:21] Jim: I have no idea what you're talking about. This is getting uncomfortably personal and we're only a couple minutes in. 

[00:03:27] Katherine: Yeah, like, I mean, I obviously would never fight with my husband either. 

[00:03:29] Jim: But I've read about people who do, yeah. 

[00:03:32] Katherine: Yeah, yeah, those other, those other people. Um, have you ever been in one of those conflicts where, like, you can't even make sentences correctly?
Or you just, it sounds really dumb. And it's because, it's like, as our emotions rise, our ability to like reason just drops to nothing. And if you want to persuade someone of something, especially if it's like an intellectual thing, which is what most things are, they need to be calm enough that they can even hear the arguments.
So, if you've got them all riled up, like it kind of doesn't matter if you've got the best apologetics training in the world, like they're really not going to hear you. So, I think that's the number one thing that I see people miss the mark on is the importance of calm conversation. 

[00:04:06] Jim: Yeah. Well, and I want to also like reiterate, I hope this isn't another point, but Being right is not enough.
You're trying to be persuasive. And when you realize, oh, being right, that matters, you know, let's get started there. But if I'm going to persuade someone, I have to help keep them calm. Otherwise, they just can't possibly think and see how brilliant, truthful, helpful, whatever my ideas or concerns are. 

[00:04:34] Katherine: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because I know Whitney, who's who initially introduced us.

[00:04:38] Jim: Yes. 

[00:04:39] Katherine: We've often talked before about. How things can be truthful, but not helpful. Like you can, that's a true thing to say, but that was also not helpful. 

[00:04:47] Jim: Gosh, this is, why is this turning into a marriage conversation? Sorry, keep going. I mean, it is true. 

[00:04:51] Katherine: Well, there's difficult conversations in marriage. I mean, that's, you know, I guess there's, yeah, you probably had one of those experiences where you say something and you're like, that was, that was not helpful.
Might have been correct. But, you know, that was not helpful to say. 

[00:05:02] Jim: Yes. Teenagers, 20 somethings, coworkers, just so you know, if you're like into this episode, it's like, is this going to be a helpful episode? It's only going to be helpful if you're from a family or intend to be part of a family or work with anybody or have any friends.
You know, if you're a hermit, you can probably skip this episode. Um, but everybody else, this is probably helpful. All right, Katie, what else do we need to keep in mind? Keep calm. Keep yourself calm, but keep them calm. What else? 

[00:05:28] Katherine: Yeah. The other person calm is in some ways the most important part. Uh, and I think it's the thing, cause we're, we're often like, well, I was calm, and they were losing it.
And I'm like, okay, they're losing it though. You're still not doing a good job. Yeah. And so, the thing people have is they're like, okay, but I think there's a myth that a hard conversation has to be. Kind of like we see on social media or on the news, it has to be a screaming match because it's like the topic itself just means that's the only way it can go.
Like, there's no scenario where, uh, we can talk about something controversial and not result in raised voices and, you know, people wanting to punch each other. But the truth is you actually, I would say, 95 percent of conversations, you have complete control over the tone. I would say 5 percent of the time you're going to get someone and it's going to be so personal for them.
And it doesn't matter how hard you try; you can't calm the conversation down. In those scenarios though, I actually recommend like you ending the conversation and walking away because it's just not being productive at that point. 

[00:06:19] Jim: Well, and you might even entrench someone in their position further. I just want to go back to something you said there.
I didn't realize like how often poor conversational, uh, debate styles are modeled. 

[00:06:35] Katherine: Oh, it drives me crazy. Oh! 

[00:06:38] Jim: Yeah. Newscast, talk radio, TV, like it's not and I get it. It's fun to watch and listen to when people are being idiots and exaggerating or whatever, but we rarely see an example of a helpful conversation.

[00:06:53] Katherine: So, I was a collegiate basketball player fun fact, and I had a really good form for my shot. And sometimes when you watch movies, you'll see like really bad and if you play the sport, you can tell when the actors have not taken any classes, it's really bad. And it kind of drives you a little crazy. That is often me watching a lot of social media content or news content.
You have to recognize that for the news and the social media, the algorithm loves controversy and conflict. And so, it naturally selects for videos that have a lot of like They're like, we like watching boxing, but the truth is, as humans, none of us actually like getting in an actual fight, though. Like, we don't mind watching boxing, but none of us are like, I just want to go, you know.

[00:07:36] Jim: Yeah, I'd like someone to punch me in the nose. 

[00:07:39] Katherine: Yeah, punch me in the face, yeah. Uh, it's fun to watch the professionals do it, but it's not fun to be in it. And so, I think what happens is, is we, because of the nature of how social media and news works, And the need for views, because that's how the money in the advertising, um, it really propagates a view of how these conversations is supposed to go.
That is really bad form. And it makes a lot of us like average Joe people who are maybe not the most confrontational feel really terrified because we're like, well, the only thing I've ever seen is a fist fight. And that can be the only option or that's like the best option is the fist fight, But I think it's important for people to remember that when you're watching a debate Those people are not trying to persuade each other.
They're trying to persuade the audience Yeah, they're actually doing probably a very horrible job at persuading each other if they were trying to persuade each other they would um, Probably do things differently as in they're doing in the debate, right? 

[00:08:30] Jim: Never have I seen the Wow, Senator, that's a great point.
I'm going to have to think about that. Never once. 

[00:08:38] Katherine: Well, they call you an idiot and they call the other guy a, you know, an idiot. 

[00:08:41] Jim: Gosh, Johnny, you're right. I'm lying. I've just been lying the whole time. I'm so sorry. That's just helpful because we are herd animals. When we see something, we tend to imitate it.
You know, it's like one of the first teaching rules is sometimes it's fun if you're teaching to give like the example of what not to do. Because sometimes that can be entertaining. But it's radically unhelpful. The studies show that when you try and be funny at the beginning and do a skit about what not to do, that's what people remember and take away.
So, it's like it's, you know, seeing the bad example is boy, really unhelpful. So, you probably start in a hole as you're training people to engage properly. 

[00:09:16] Katherine: No, I do because they're one of two camps. Either they're very excited to go fight people, in which case you like, calm down, calm down. I got a couple of volunteers that are very excited to be martyrs and I'm just like, we're like, we gotta calm down.

[00:09:30] Jim: Yeah. That's not the goal. 

[00:09:32] Katherine: That is not the goal. I know. I know. Unless you're, uh, you know, Ignatius or something. And then the other type is, and I think the majority are like, they're really scared. They're very scared. Only thing they've ever seen is like kind of the vitriol that we see in particular on social media.
And keeping in mind also that social media, because of the anonymousness of it in ways, it makes people say and do things they would never do. In a real conversation, right? And so, I think people are expecting it to be. Way more scary than it is. And that's actually like the big hump of having their first conversations for a lot of our volunteers is like just going out there and being like, oh, oh, all the prochoice people were really nice.
And like, they were pretty reasonable. And I persuaded a couple and it's like night and day different than I think what they expected to be in their minds. 

[00:10:20] Jim: Katie, this is so helpful. I mean, this is why I want to have this conversation because Again, you're working in extreme conditions amongst the, you know, the most kind of controversial issue of our day.
One, the skills of having a good conversation, but the experience, you just kind of alluded the fear. Like, I mean, how many of us just had a simple sharing of our faith? Bulk because we're afraid we're going to get a response that will damage a relationship or, you know, just embarrass us and we don't end up engaging because we're afraid.
How do you get people over that fear? 

[00:10:58] Katherine: For us in particular, it's a community thing. They have a mentor that's working with them and they're in community with other people who are going out and being brave and it's kind of that creating that. Creating an environment that they can do it in and when we really do work with them one on one until they get to a level of confidence that they can do it themselves.
It's very probably discipleship model. 

[00:11:19] Jim: Yeah. Well, I mean, as soon as you're saying that, I'm like, duh, just like Jesus, right? I mean, he's sending people out from a larger community. 

[00:11:26] Katherine: In twos. We send them out together in twos. 

[00:11:27] Jim: Right. In pairs. Yes. I mean, like they're going out in pairs and And they've also, they've seen him do it.
So, he's like, all right, everybody watch closely. And they're like, all right, now you two together. And it's just like, it well portrayed, I think in the chosen series. 

[00:11:43] Katherine: Oh yeah. We're in the middle of season three right now. Don't spoil it. I don't know what happened. 

[00:11:47] Jim: Okay. That's where you should read your Bible.

[00:11:49] Katherine: No, no, I was, I was joking. 

[00:11:50] Jim: I know. I know you're like, I was joking, but yeah, it's super well portrayed because you often don't realize like, oh wow. Like he just like, Let them go. And he sent him out two by two. And I think that's again, because there's a communal, I love that you said that there's a communal aspect to this, which allows again, in the extreme circumstances for people to be able to do something that they would otherwise be a little hesitant, afraid to do.
But that's, you know, Jesus does the same thing when he sends us out to talk about him. So how do we get the conversation started? 

[00:12:20] Katherine: Yeah. Um, well, I know how we get it started in our particular error. Situation we go out and we survey people. It's interesting because in some ways I think people think that talking to strangers is harder, but I actually think it might be easier than our friends and family because the strangers if it doesn't go well, you don't ever have to see them again, right?
Well, friends and family. I think they also sometimes they know us a little better. It's like we're trying to persuade people on the abortion topic and you know that's like one world view while you're maybe trying to like evangelize like that's like a people need more of an ongoing deeper level of discipleship so you in some way you know I'm not saying there's not any value to stranger evangelization but I could see how a close friend or a friend or somebody who's closer to you so you can build that relationship.
Would be more, you know, make more sense in that context. 

[00:13:10] Jim: Yeah. No, you're, you're totally right. I mean the just being a missionary to your friends and family is The hardest period I would just add a caveat. It's hard because people are like, I know you And it's hard for us because like they know me But that can be flipped when the lord has really changed your life.
And what you're trying to share is What he's done in your life now, suddenly the I know you and I've known you all your life and now it's like, what happened to you used to be a jerk and now you're nice and you're like, well, can I tell you what happened? You know, and and all of a sudden what seems like an obstacle gets flipped on its head when you can tell the story of the change, hope, joy, peace, peace.
Fill in the blank, the thing that God did in your life, which really should be the thing that we are talking about. Again, not that we, you know, shouldn't and couldn't talk about difficult issues with the church or important points of doctrine. If that's not fully contextualized in the Yeah, God changed my life.
And you should know. Remember what a jerk I was? That helps it be a little bit easier. Sometimes it's harder to talk to people about the faith because we think we're talking about a finer point of doctrine that one, we don't understand, they don't agree with, and which seems really maybe what hypocritical for someone who's known us for a long time.
In some ways, that's, that's a good instinct. We actually need to start a little bit more with what God did in our life and then get to the finer points of doctrine later. 

[00:14:48] Katherine: Yeah, and I think I just always want to encourage people because I think they look at us going out and talking to strangers like it's so, Oh, like I'm not doing enough because I'm just trying to evangelize to my immediate circle.
In some ways, like that is the harder thing. So, it's not like I think we say, Oh, it's not enough because I'm not out doing street evangelization every weekend. Instead of recognizing that the harder thing is to evangelize to the very people that God has put particularly in our lives. 

[00:15:12] Jim: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's easier.
You can love strangers. I'm all about, you know, getting somebody a cup of coffee or helping someone out, but like to really be able to demonstrate love. You kind of need to be in people's lives for a while. You mentioned earlier how like, okay, you got to keep people calm. And once, you know, you yourself or the other person starts to kind of get riled up.
You need to either disengage or find a way to restore their calmness. How do you help people stay calm and how do you, if possible, restore it when other people are starting to get agitated? 

[00:15:46] Katherine: Yeah, I think there's two things, maybe three. The first is common ground. So common ground is the concept of taking a moment in the conversation to vocalize out loud an area of agreement between yourself and the other person and I teach our volunteers that common ground like good common ground has six components and the first is that it has to actually be vocalized out loud.
Like we often think like, oh, well, they know Like, for example, I'll use my husband's actually a convert to the faith. And so, if I was to talk to a Protestant about like a theological difference, you know, and be like, Oh, well, they know that I, like, I believe in Jesus. You know, I think he's my savior. And I, you know, they know all these things that I believe.
Well, a lot of times they don't, you know, Common ground out loud. It's got to be genuine. We shouldn't be lying conversations. 

[00:16:36] Jim: Write that down. Everybody don't lie. 

[00:16:40] Katherine: It's got to be relevant to like what we're talking about. You know, so in the abortion topic, for example, if they're talking about how concerned they are with like the foster care system and I start trying to build common ground on, you know, Adoption I've kind of left the realm of what the topic was.
Yeah, I encourage people that it should also be immediate So what I’m doing in a controversial conversation is anytime the purchase person says a sentence I always build a sentence of common ground before I say anything else.

[00:17:08] Jim: That's so good. Can you give a quick example? 

[00:17:11] Katherine: Yeah, so let's say the purchase person is like, well, I just will go with the foster care I just feel like it ought to be legal because You know, our foster care system is so, so broken.
What a lot of probably people would be tempted to do is just to dive right into the, but it's a baby. But, but, but instead of taking a moment to just be like, you know, I agree with you that there are a lot of issues with our foster care system, not a perfect. But you think I don't have to say that out loud.
They should know that they just said that. Of course, they know, I think, but you have to vocalize it. It has to be genuine. If you think our foster care system is amazing, then obviously don't say that and that should come first, and it should be immediately after they say something before you dive into any sort of argument or rebuttal and that skill of just building common ground.
It will revolutionize any conversation. I swear if you're listening to this next time you get in a conflict with a spouse. Husband or wife says something, just take a, take a moment, build a single sentence of common ground and just see how the tone of the conversation just really, really mellows down significantly.

[00:18:14] Jim: Where were you yesterday? No, this is great. No, this is great. And I, you're talking about, I mean, even just that simple example you gave as, as we were starting this, it's like, no, no, no, I, I love Jesus. I believe he's, he's God and he's the Lord in my life. Sometimes that alone in an area of faith, particularly between a, you know, a Catholic and a non-Catholic Christian is sometimes so powerful and so flabbergasting that it derails the conversation in a good way.
And what I mean by that is, you know, the non, the non-Catholic Christian who had this negative stereotype about a Catholics that, that maybe Jesus wasn't number one, they're like... 

[00:18:52] Katherine: doing all these rituals. Yeah. 

[00:18:53] Jim: Yeah. They're confused in a blessed way. And literally I've had somebody wanted to argue about Mary or the pope or whatever.
And like literally after not with as much intentionality as I could have should have, but after reassuring them that I loved Jesus, that I believe that he was God, that he changed my life and that I wanted to share him with others. All of their animus to argue just disappeared. They didn't want to talk anymore.
They're like, awesome, brother. It was disorienting for me. That's just a little important thing for Catholics to note. When we're talking to a non-Catholic, man, don't forget that they may have negative stereotypes in this common ground building by kind of affirming What matters to them, particularly as they, as they say, it is huge.

[00:19:41] Katherine: Well, they almost always do. Anybody who's on the quote other side of the fence for whatever the issue is, Protestant Catholic abortion, prolife, prochoice, whatever the issue is, they have negative stereotypes almost always of the other side, because there's an interesting phenomenon that happens. Where, when you're in a group, like Catholics, and you meet someone, um, my husband actually, when he was a Protestant, he tells this story about meeting this Catholic who was talking literally about worshipping and praying to Mary.
Like, did not understand Catholic Church teachings, not well catechized, not really even practicing. So, he identifies as Catholic though, and my husband as a Protestant on the outside is like, this man says he's Catholic. He says, this is what Catholic is, therefore, this is what Catholic is not realizing that you and I would meet that same man and we'd be like, "You were not [inaudible]". 

[00:20:26] Jim: Dude, can we talk?
Like, were you paying attention at all? Like, no, we don't worship Mary. 

[00:20:30] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, but that's what happens is we think that They're a homogeneous group and they're all the same and if we have any negative experience with any of them We just kind of wipe that over all of them while when you're in the group itself You can look around and see the differences and we'll even see this in the prolife movement Where I'm telling at a woman outside of the the clinic is yelling being mean saying horrible things to her Telling her she's gonna go to hell.
I'm like, okay, this is not effective You know, sidewalk counseling, but the prochoice side thinks that that's all of us that we're all yelling at the women. And so, I think it's important when we go into these conversations to almost expect that there is, they probably might have had some negative experience with someone who identified like us.
And the importance of, even if you, I always, I say this to our volunteers, even if you get every single part of the apologetics wrong, if you can at least give them a positive experience with a prolife person, like don't discredit how valuable it is to just have a positive interaction that is loving and kind and you're reasonable and a compassionate human.

[00:21:37] Jim: Yeah. Well, and again, likewise, as a person of faith, again, whether it's a Catholic with a non-Catholic or just, you know, as a Christian, you know, who happens to believe in the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman or on and on and on, I mean, it's not what the goal is, but if they walk away saying, man, I think they're crazy, but really nice.
That's not bad. That's a good, that's a good start. 

[00:22:00] Katherine: Oh, that's good. That's really necessary. Nobody ever wants to join the mean and crazy side. Yeah. 

[00:22:06] Jim: Yeah. And yeah, and maybe out of compassion, you know, to try and help the nice people that are crazy. You know, maybe they'll enter into another conversation. 

[00:22:15] Katherine: It also gets into the other point that I would give that.
I think that when you're entering the conversations, I encourage people to always enter with the most charitable interpretation of the other person. Because I think a lot of times we tend to enter these conversations kind of assuming that the other person is like, You know, the devil reincarnated and that they have evil intentions.
There's nothing but evil in them. And that's how we approach them. And we can imagine if you're on the receiving end of that, that is not a very persuasive, even a demeanor to go into a conversation. And I think that people can't read the body language. If you're like, you're a monster and you're trying to have a conversation.
So, I said, they're going to sense that and it's going to really hurt the effectiveness of your words. Oh, totally. Which is why I always tell, like, our volunteers, I'm like, even with, in the prochoice, it's a great example, it's the prochoice debate because we, you know, we often think that, you know, all prochoice people are these, like, evil, baby killing, like, you know, hate all the babies kind of monsters, um, without realizing that, like, most of them have just not even really thought about this issue.
I mean, they're 18. It's what the culture told them. They don't really think it's a baby or they don't really know. They’ve given it maybe half a moment of thought. And I think that's why we're able to persuade so many of them. Um, when I approached all those, you know, 18 year olds just trying to drink their coffee and go about their day, who, who've been told that they need to give women choices, and I was like, you're, you know, A Nazi, because you are killing all these babies, they wouldn't even hear a word I had to say.

[00:23:45] Jim: I love that you talked about that. Again, there's all sorts of studies that show that like, people can tell what you're thinking. Yeah. If you are in your head thinking this person, maybe, you know, short of like, okay, the devil incarnated, but just if you're thinking they're dumb, they're an idiot, they're so like, people can feel it.
They can sense it. The Lord loves this person. This person is maybe I've never met. They're my brother. Maybe they're actually my brother, which could make it harder to love them, but whatever. Like you just, I mean, don't start the conversation with them about the Lord until you've maybe had a few conversations with the Lord about them and let him just give you.
A little bit of his love for them because that'll be attractive. 

[00:24:29] Katherine: But he's all knowing about how maybe dumb some of their ideas are. He's all knowing, and he still loves them. 

[00:24:34] Jim: Yeah, and he still loves them. We're not even all knowing. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. What else would you say? Just, just advice for these conversations.
I feel like all of this, I mean, it's so simple, but it, but it really is gold. Any, anything else just as, as we kind of enter into these conversations? 

[00:24:50] Katherine: Yeah, so my expertise would be definitely more in, if you're trying to argue a particular, maybe like theological point, which, you know, I think it's good, even though we've talked so much about discerning, is that even what this person needs?
Does this person really need to debate about Mary right now, or do they need to just know that we both love God? Is that really how we're going to evangelize like maybe a fallen away person in our life? But if you are discerning that you're in a situation where no, no, I actually do need to talk about these theological differences, or maybe it's like more of the social political, like abortion, right?
A moral issue. Yeah. Moral issue. Yeah. My number one piece of advice is to research the other side and how they think we tend to do this thing where we only read. Literature resources trainings of people who are already on our side You don't really read the what the other side is putting out and what happens is, you know The reasons we believe something like they are going to think differently than us.
Like that's why they are prochoice or atheist or whatever, So you really need to understand well, why are they prochoice? Why are they atheist? And to talk about what they actually believe, instead of doing what we normally do, which is where we just kind of, we just memorize our talking points, and then we say them very unaffectedly.
My husband, before he, he's a convert to the faith, but he talks a lot about, people always used to say to him, well it just is the one true church. True statement. Right, but It was like, very unhelpful, very unhelpful. Because he's like, because it didn't address Uh, the reasons he was Protestant. Just asserting that it is the one true church.
I didn't understand where he was coming from. So, it just annoyed him. Every time he had to have Well, what was the other thing people would say to him? They'd say, you'll come around eventually. He did come around eventually, but still. True, but not helpful. 

[00:26:36] Jim: Yeah, but that's like, I'm gonna win even though you don't know it right now.
Yeah. I know I've been completely unpersuasive, but you're going to join us. Okay, true, but like also like kind of condescending and that's hilarious. I want to give you a chance here to talk a little bit about kind of like what's going on in the prolife movement here in Nebraska and around the country because there's a lot happening and just for anybody who's like, yay, Roe v.
Wade was overturned, all done. It's like, I'll let you start there. And then maybe we can dive into some of the other stuff that's happening. 

[00:27:13] Katherine: I mean, Roe v. Wade being overturned was such a victory, such an answer to prayer. But I think that some people maybe did feel like, oh, cool, we're done now. Not realizing that what Roe v. Wade essentially did is it just returned everything back to the state level. And what's happening right now, unfortunately, and has already happened in four states, is A lot of prochoice groups are attempting to pass constitutional amendments to the state's constitution, making abortion legal in the states and making it so that our legislators can't pass for like laws, laws like, you know, parental consent, um, regulations on the clinics to meet health codes, things like that.

[00:27:50] Jim: And it even gets worse. So, some states, let's say they did have restrictions on abortions, you know, on like age and this. Like, those can be wiped away in a moment by a state constitutional amendment. So, in some cases, it's gotten worse. 

[00:28:04] Katherine: Things have, in many ways, gotten, yes, worse than they were pre-Roe. Uh, there's been four states that have successfully gotten these constitutional amendments, and Nebraska's actually next.
They're trying to do it right now. There's a group there called, uh, Protect Our Rights. Nebraska and they are trying to collect enough signatures to get abortion on the ballot for 2024. They are in particular targeting the college campuses of all places. I am shocked. I know the 18 to 24 demographic is overwhelmingly in favor of these initiatives and so that's.
That's where they're at. And that's also kind of where we're at. Our mission is to change people's minds on the issue. We're not typically in the politics, like a lot of other groups are like Nebraska Catholic conference, um, or other groups like that, but it's kind of hit our wheelhouse very much right now, as like we're out on campus with clipboards and the other side is also just right next door.
So, yeah. And their goal is if they, they have, um, until this summer to get the signatures and if they get the signatures, it'll be on the ballot for 2024. And if it. Passes, then yes, abortion would be legal. Currently, they're pushing for all nine months of pregnancy. They're defining it as full viability.
The way it's set up is the baby can survive without any medical intervention, extraordinary medical intervention, like a NICU, which You know, anything about embryology, like, okay, only babies that can survive preterm outside of the NICU are full term children. So that, it sounds like viability, but it really is until birth.
And it would, as you said, do away with all of the current laws we have, like, you know, about consent of minors and all that kind of stuff. So, there's a couple things that we're doing to try and fight against what's what's happening right now in our state The first is we're actually expanding our college program.
So we have College students that go out on the college campus and they go out and they're persuading, you know On average that one in five prochoice students and so we've historically had One paid intern whose job was to train all of those volunteers but in an attempt to get more volunteers trained and more conversations happening before the election because you know The project said really is to mobilize this, the young, the younger generation.
Yeah. We're expanding the number of students who are going to be interns. And we're actually also rebranding it, um, as a scholarship opportunity instead. So nice fun fact. If you do it as a scholarship, the kids can actually keep all the money they're paid. As long as they spend it on educational expenses.
Instead of having to pay some of it back to our government that is so responsible with all of our taxpayers. 

[00:30:36] Jim: That's awesome. Well, and there's plenty of educational expenses. I've got two in college. Oh, yeah. 

[00:30:40] Katherine: Oh, for sure. Yeah. So, students, if they're interested in applying for it, it's for any students.
We're going to be offering it this year at University of Nebraska and Lincoln and Omaha. And, you know, they're going to learn leadership skills. They're going to get to be involved in the prolife movement, you know, make a positive impact. And then they can earn 2, 000. A year up to 8, 000 throughout the course of their undergrad.
So, it's a really great opportunity. Yeah, it's a really great opportunity. And then they can learn all of the details on how to apply on our website, www. abortiondialogueacademy. org slash scholarship. And the deadline is May 3rd. 

[00:31:15] Jim: That's fantastic. It was interesting as we've kind of talked. Through this, we alluded to this a number of times in some ways, like learning how to have a conversation, whether it's about abortion, whether it's about an aspect of our faith, moral issue, there's an imitation of Jesus in this and a relearning of what our culture has maybe, you know, Intentionally, accidentally, whatever, kind of miss taught us.
How do you see this as, as kind of a, an imitation and a learning from how Jesus handled difficult issues? 

[00:31:52] Katherine: Well, the first thing actually that came to mind is a lot of our volunteers, um, or like, you know, previous kids who've done our program have gone on to be FOCUS missionaries. We have a decent number in the seminary right now, or the convent, and I think it's because when you push yourself outside of the box to go talk to people, you realize like it's, it's, if you could talk to someone on abortion, you could talk to someone about anything kind of. In some ways, talking about their faith, it feels a little bit easier.

[00:32:20] Jim: I love what you just said. There's just, there's a courage that people discover and probably a deeper conviction about their faith. Stays with them after they've done, you know, the the work with the abortion dialogue academy. Jesus gives us, uh, some example about how to handle controversial issues. And in many ways, we need to kind of rediscover that because We don't have good examples from our culture about how to do this.
Maybe we don't have good examples from our family life. What do you see in Jesus and maybe how has that inspired your retraining of people? 

[00:32:57] Katherine: He has a lot of love and I think he has love where people are expecting condemnation. I think they're often anticipating that he is going to Maybe do more of the, the yelling or the, the condemnation type of thing and, and the fact that he, he approaches people with love and you also notice frequently that he approaches people kind of where they're at, which I think gets back into what we've talked about with like the understanding where someone's at in how we engage with them, not just coming from where we're at, because he could very easily be like, I'm God and all of you are sinners.
And this is where it's true. 

[00:33:29] Jim: Very true. Talk about somebody who knows they're right. 

[00:33:32] Katherine: Yeah, no, someone is right. True. But, uh, he knew that was not going to be like helpful. Um, I love too that in many ways it wasn't, you know, it's about the person even that he's talking to and reaching them where they're at instead of it being, because I think sometimes we make it about us instead of the person that we're trying, trying to reach.

[00:33:47] Jim: That's so good. The only thing I would, I would add is like, yes, you see Jesus like physically meeting people where they're at, intellectually meeting people where they're at, he's showing love instead of condemnation and, and literally surprising them and scandalizing everybody who's watching. But in addition to that.
He also picks the right conversation. I mean, it is hilarious to watch how often somebody comes to Jesus with a controversial issue and he just kind of sidesteps, you know, and usually that sidestep is a form of a question because he's like, I don't want to talk about that. Uh, he's like, I want to talk about this or okay, I'll talk about that.
But why are you asking? And it's just. Awesome. I know he's king of the universe, but it's like, Oh, what a great politician. Are you just like, I'm just going to talk about what I want to talk about. 

[00:34:33] Katherine: What's so funny is we feel like in conversations, like if the prejudice person changes the subject that you have to follow them, but we actually teach our volunteers to like, just build common ground and go right back to the topic.
Like, so yeah, there is a certain art to just redirecting. 

[00:34:49] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:34:49] Katherine: You don't have to file over your rabbit hole. So. 

[00:34:51] Jim: Yeah. For those of you who don't, you know, the idea of like being a good politician doesn't sit well with you. It's like, you're just being like Jesus. Jesus does this. He intentionally chooses the topics he wants to talk about and he's loving the people in front of him.

[00:35:03] Katherine: It might not be fruitful to have a conversation, you know, on campus, for example, like if someone wants to go down a different rabbit hole and it's like, no, abortion is what I'm trying to, to evangelize right now. And that rabbit hole is not, not going to be a fruitful conversation. 

[00:35:15] Jim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Quick review.
Be like Jesus. First, talk to God. Get a little bit of his love for this person. Common ground. Establish some common ground. Just, I agree that, but what else? Just quick review for people here. 

[00:35:30] Katherine: Yeah, the common ground, making sure that the conversation is staying calm. If it's not staying calm, then we're taking active steps.
Steps to calm it down, use how calm the other person is as the litmus test of how you're doing, not whether or not you're winning. Enter the conversation with the most charitable interpretation of why someone maybe doesn't disagree with you. You know, like this Protestant trying to pull everyone away from the one true church, or do they actually think that the church is like wrong and they're trying to save people, you know?
And then if you are entering and you discern that you do need to have a conversation that is maybe more on the intellectual debate level, then taking the time to really try to understand why the other person believes what they believe instead of just consuming kind of our side. Yeah. Also consume like what, why are they Protestant?
Why do they, you know, are they prochoice? What is, what is the thing or their arguments or their reasons as to why Catholics are wrong, or the prolife side is wrong and really understand that and use that to inform how you talk about. 

[00:36:31] Jim: Yeah. That's huge. I think I shared this the last time we talked, but like, I feel like the par excellence example of don't be afraid to study the other side is there's this story, uh, which I think is, is true where John Paul II like literally as you know, Cardinal Wojtyla took a, like communist, you know, monthly magazine into the papal conclave, and I think he's even got it like, you know, it's like part of his reading material in the Sistine Chapel, and they're like, holy cow. I, you know, supposedly he scandalized some of his confers with it, but he's like, well, I I have to know what they think if I can bring the light of Christ into it.
Yeah. Beautiful example. I mean, if that doesn't give you permission, not, I'm not saying everybody needs to go subscribe to a communist monthly, but understanding is, I mean, it's kind of a necessary first step to, to love and building common ground. Uh, gosh, Katie, this has been so good. I want to give you a chance here just at the end, just we'll go over the websites and stuff again and you can tell people how they can get involved, how they can be of service.
But I just want to give you a chance to kind of speak to that person who's just like, I don't like talking to people and I don't like, I don't like getting in fights with people, but they're feeling a little uncomfortably nudged by this conversation and other things the Lord's doing in their life that they know they need to initiate some conversations.
What would you say to them? 

[00:37:55] Katherine: They're going to be the best at it. Typically speaking, if you have to keep the other person calm so that they can hear you, you kind of need to be non-threatening. And so, the person who's like, I am ready for the fight tends to not do as well. I'm sorry if any of you are the fight people.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But some of our most effective volunteers have been, for lack of a better word, a little bit awkward ones. Like the ones that are like, because they're so calm and disarming and like, they're like, fumbling through it, and in the fumbling through it, I actually, we have one volunteer in particular, and I love her.
She would, she would get kind of like a little flustered, a little messed up, and like the person would feel like empathy for her, and be like, oh no, you're doing great, just keep going, keep going, and it's like, I'm really listening. And you know, so like Christ, it's always like we thought he was going to come and be this like warrior king or, you know, they thought back then and he, you know, was born in a manger.
It's kind of that same thing. You, you expect that the person who's going to do great at this is going to be like the perfectly polished, you know, master defeat winner. Uh, but really, it's the person who just is genuine and maybe a little bit fumbles through. And I think, you know, we talked earlier about the chosen and I think you see that like.
He didn't pick people who were the obvious pick, and in many ways that can make you the more effective option. So, if you're like, I'm not the obvious pick because I'm awkward, or I'm shy, or I, you know, I'm not gonna do it right, or I'm... 

[00:39:20] Jim: I don't think well on my feet.

[00:39:22] Katherine: I don't think well on my feet. What if I get stumped. That makes you better at it actually. 

[00:39:27] Jim: Yeah. Everything she's saying is true. Like it's just totally true. The Hall of Fame missionaries, I mean, people who really changed other people's lives, who did extraordinary things, oftentimes. They were terribly insecure and they're like, I don't know. I just don't want to be one of those people who like, you know, damages a relationship and I don't want to say something too soon and it's like, okay, you're probably going to be fine just because of that.
Because the people who go around hitting people over the head, you know, with their Bible, don't think twice. There's no hand wringing or self-doubt in them and, and man, those, those who are like, I just, I don't want to ruin this friendship. It's like, okay, well, that, that love is probably what's going to make you fruitful.

[00:40:12] Katherine: If you're thinking that you're not going to ruin the friendship. Yeah. If we got any Bible hitters listening, we love you too. You have a lot of passion. We're just gonna, and I love that when I get one of those kids, I'm like, okay, we just got to find a way to. To tune that down into with those actually in particular, we really try to focus on the empathy because I think that once they reframe how they view the pro trace person, the desire to kind of hit them over the head.
It goes down a lot and we find that they can channel that passion in a more positive and productive way. 

[00:40:41] Jim: Oh, that's awesome. How can people find you if they want to get involved? To get a scholarship or to send your information to someone they know who needs a scholarship? 

[00:40:49] Katherine: Yes, so a couple things. So actually our, I'm the executive director, our Nebraska programs coordinator Connie is actually offering Um, she will come and speak for like five minutes to any group that wants to hear more about like what's going on with the ballot stuff Nice and also any group that potentially has a group of kids who want to learn about the scholarship So you've got a youth group a prolife group a high school class She comes five minutes tells people about the scholarship And or if maybe you're in like a men's study a night council a bible study a prolife group Uh, and you just want people to know what's going on, maybe more on the political side, we can do both.
So, uh, if you want to get a hold of Connie to bring her in to speak, help raise awareness about both what's going on politically and also this opportunity for the youth, email info at abortiondialogueacademy. org. Okay. Long last name. Uh, but info at abortiondialogueacademy.org. Can you link that for me?

[00:41:44] Jim: Oh, absolutely We we will link that but it's like, I can spell those words. 

[00:41:48] Katherine: Yeah, because we're trying to raise awareness obviously about about both opportunities Maybe you don't want to bring her in to speak But you maybe know a particular young man or woman who would be amazing prolife advocate would love a prolife scholarship um, you can direct them to go apply on our website, which is www.abortiondialogueacademy.org/scholarship. 

[00:42:09] Jim: Perfect. Katherine, thank you. Thank you for all, gosh, all of your insight. Thank you for, uh, thank you for what you do. You got, you are really kind of right at the pivot point here where the battle's being fought and where culture is being formed. So, thank you for what you do.

[00:42:24] Katherine: Yeah. He doesn't, uh, call the equipped. He equips the called. Which I guess is part of the podcast though. 

[00:42:30] Jim: Yeah.

[00:42:30] Katherine: Is that the inspiration of the name? 

[00:42:32] Jim: Uh, yes, actually. So, good job. Everybody, you know somebody who needs to hear this. Take a moment and share this out. A little text. Maybe somebody you're like, I'd like to help pay for your college.
Here's how. Uh, I've got a scholarship for you. So anyway, send this out. To someone, invite Connie to speak. Yeah, let the Lord keep prompting you to start conversations. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission.
Stay connected with us by going to Equip.Archomaha.Org. God bless and see you next time.