[00:00:00] Jim: All right, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. My name is Jim Jansen, and I'm your host, and I have a great conversation for you today. I am a huge fan of the work of Michael Hall. He wrote a book called Intentional Accompaniment, an Apprenticeship for a New Generation of Builders. He works for CCO, Catholic Christian Outreach of Canada.
It's a beautiful campus ministry. He talks about how he has taken the practices and evangelization tools and techniques of their ministry and applied it to everyday settings in parish and in family life. Uh, he talks about different styles of accompaniment based off where someone else is at in the journey.
How do you know how to accompany them? Uh, we talk about the golden question when you're sharing the, the good news and the gospel, how important it is to stop and ask the golden question. He talks about the analogy that marriage is for our relationship with the Lord. Uh, and he gives some fantastic baby steps for those of you who feel called to step into the Lord's invitation to begin to share your faith more boldly and more fruitfully.
Uh, you're going to love today's conversation, so take a listen. 

[00:01:16] Intro Music: Welcome to the EquipCast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. Designed to help leaders to transform their cultures, to embody the pastoral vision, to be one church, encountering Jesus, equipping disciples, and living mercy. 

[00:01:33] Jim: Michael Hall, welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing today? 

[00:01:37] Michael: I'm doing all right. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:39] Jim: Yeah. Thanks for being here. So, we're, we're talking before the show, being here as a relative, thanks. Thanks for talking because you're in Canada. Yes, I am. Yeah. Which, which I'm excited about. I'm not going to resist any, any temptation to, I don't actually know any Canadian jokes, but.

[00:01:58] Michael: But we can say we are getting a foot of snow today. So just, just to. Just to fit the stereotype. 

[00:02:04] Jim: That's great. Yeah. Way to lean into it. And we're recording this on August 20th. No, I'm kidding. 

[00:02:08] Michael: That's right. Yeah. It's the warmest day of the year. 

[00:02:11] Jim: Yeah. No, just kidding. Okay. So, Michael, tell us a little bit about you, your faith journey. When did you first encounter Jesus? 

[00:02:18] Michael: So, I can kind of get to go all the way back. Um, so born to two Catholic parents, but my mother dies when I'm four. Um, breast cancer, uh, she passed away. There's a whole beautiful story in that, uh, but my dad later remarries. And so, and, uh, my stepmom, I just, I call her my mom.
I don't think of her stepmom would be the appropriate term. Sure. She's a Lutheran slash evangelical. So, she goes to a small little beautiful evangelical church. So, I grew up in a home where, uh, I'm Catholic, but really, I've just, I know I'm Christian and I don't really know what to do with that. And I get to university, and I don't really know what to do with that still.
I'm kind of like, I'm Christian, but what type of Christian should I be? 

[00:03:00] Jim: Were you raised kind of bilingual, where you could speak mom's evangelical language and your Catholic upbringing? 

[00:03:06] Michael: I would say it was really when I was in my teenage years that my parents’ faith really kind of kicked in. Okay. So, when I was younger, we may or may not go to church on a Sunday.

[00:03:17] Jim: Sure. 

[00:03:17] Michael: You know, that sort of thing. But yeah, really by the time I hit my teenage years. Uh, my parents had both really caught on fire, but different in different ways. My dad's very intellectual. Um, so he read a ton and he's very well read now. My mom is a prayer warrior. 

[00:03:32] Jim: Nice. 

[00:03:33] Michael: So, it's beautiful. So, I grew up with a real appreciation for this beautiful little evangelical congregation and knowing my Catholic background and just wanted to know what was, what was true, you know?

[00:03:43] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:03:44] Michael: When I got to university, that's where I encountered Catholic Christian Outreach, CCO. For those that aren't familiar with that, um, very much like FOCUS. Um, basically, we would call FOCUS our younger brother who's just a lot taller than us. That's how I would put it. 

[00:04:00] Jim: The American younger brother. That's funny. I love that. 

[00:04:03] Michael: So, we're very, very similar in how we do things. Yes. And so, you know, it was there. I actually first encountered Campus Crusade for Christ and did my first year hanging out with They approached me in a bookstore lineup. 

[00:04:14] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:04:15] Michael: And, uh, just said, you wanna be in a Bible study? I was like, yeah, actually, I wanna figure some of this stuff out.
There are a couple things that didn't quite sit right with me. Um, and one of them ironically was, uh, when they started talking about evangelism, I was like, well, that sounds crazy. Who? So, I knew, I was like, well, I'm Catholic. I should give the Catholic group a chance, and I'm sure they don't talk about that sort of stuff.

[00:04:31] Jim: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Right. Irony of ironies. 

[00:04:35] Michael: Yeah. And so, it was. Through my experience with, with CCO that, uh, I, I already, I, I knew I, I believed I thought it was important. I tried to live my life by principles, but it was on a retreat going to Eucharistic adoration for the first time in my life. I'd never seen this before.

[00:04:53] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:04:53] Michael: And it was there that I met the Lord, you know, like the Lord that I knew and that I believed in intellectually. That now I met him and realized the way I often describe it. It's like, I knew that he loved me, but I wouldn't necessarily believe he knew my name. Um, cause I was just part of the herd, you know, and he loved, he loves everyone, but he wouldn't have known me.
And it was in that adoration time that I, I didn't want to be at, I thought it was weird and all this. And then I just kind of went with the crowd. I was like, well, I mean, and by crowd, I mean, there's maybe 20, 30 people there, but I was just like, well, I'm, I'm here for a while, so I might as well try to pray.
And it was in that time that the Lord just stormed in and, and I went. Oh, you know me, you love me and that really, I mean, it rocked my world, but then I also went very quickly afterwards when, okay, if he loves me like that and I know he loves everyone. Oh boy. Like nobody knows that somebody has got to tell them.

[00:05:53] Jim: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. 

[00:05:54] Michael: And I went, Oh no, somebody's got to tell you don't need me. Do you? And so then, you know, so it very quickly went from, you know, that I, when I encountered him and encountered his love that very quickly turned into like, boy, everybody needs to know about this. Um, so very quickly, and of course, being in a CCO environment, very quickly, very quickly gave me the opportunities to be able to share my faith.

[00:06:15] Jim: Wow, that's awesome. And so that's college. Fast forward a little bit. Tell us about your day job now for CCO. 

[00:06:22] Michael: Yeah, so I've been with CCO for actually my 20th year now with CCO. So, I've been doing this for a while. So, I've done a lot of different jobs. So, my current job right now, basically, my job is to equip our staff and those outside of our movement who would like to learn from what we do in.
Well, some of the best practices that we have. So, I'm yeah, I'm constantly reading, writing, teaching both internally to build up our staff team, but also to share about our ministry experiences and the lessons we've learned over. 30 plus years of, as a movement to be able to share those with the church in, in hoping that it can bless the church in all the different contexts that she's ministering in.

[00:07:02] Jim: Yeah. Well, and I'm pretty confident the answer is yes, because I mean, I have, we were talking before we hit record, like, your teaching, particularly in the book, Intentional Accompaniment, has been such a blessing to my work here in the Archdiocese. You know, we were talking about kind of a mutual friend when CCO had done some training for Focus when I was still working as a missionary with Focus.
So, it really is. Yeah, it's been, I think, CCO. Maybe as we start with this, and I'm also noticing the rhyme between our own conversion stories and some of our professional life in ministry, so that's, that's very fun. I'll just start. What strikes me about intentional accompaniment and the great little byline, you know, an apprenticeship for a new generation of builders is that Different from some of the books about evangelization, which I all love, which focus on like the theory or the theology of evangelization, like, no, this is your job because you're baptized, which again, I love that message or the hey, you need to structure your parish and we need to make sure that father's not alone and evangelization is the job of the parish and on and on and on.
Most of those books tend to, if I can sum it up in one sentence, they're like, you should do it. And Michael, you come along and say, and here's how. So, give us a little bit of the background of why you decided to write Intentional Accompaniment. 

[00:08:31] Michael: To be honest, it kind of happened by accident. 

[00:08:33] Jim: Oh, that's fun.

[00:08:34] Michael: Yeah. So, it was, uh, it kind of started so, uh, much like a lot of groups, I know actually we were talking about this before we hit record here, um, you know, just how when discipleship got introduced to focus and, and we use, a lot of people use the term discipleship. And as I was studying at the Augustine Institute, so a little plug for the AI as well.

[00:08:54] Jim: Yeah. Oh yeah. Go AI. 

[00:08:55] Michael: I, uh, I, I just kept feeling like e every time I'd read another church doctrine and that sort of thing, the word discipleship would never be used to describe a ministry you, you did. It would be describing your own personal walk as a disciple. And I kept sitting with that and going, why do we keep using discipleship?
Because then I would get confused. I would see the word discipleship. I'm like, oh, it's going to talk about one-on-one ministry. It's going to, and then like, doesn't talk about that at all. So, I remember I had a conversation with Andre Renier, one of our co-founders. And I just, I kind of with trepidation said like, Andre, I don't, I don't know if we should keep using this term discipleship.
And he's like, you know what? I think I know the term. And I think it's accompaniment. That's the one. It was just as Pope Francis had really started popularizing. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. And I was like, okay. So then, uh, my team that I was working with at the time, we got to work basically at saying, okay, how would we rebrand essentially discipleship into this accompaniment?
What would that look like? And how would we Work on it. So... 

[00:09:51] Jim: Well, and this, before you go too far I want to make sure that all of our listeners are catching this both focus CCO campus crusade for Christ a number of college ministries use the term discipleship to refer to The ministry practice of coming alongside another individual or a small group and helping them grow You know apprenticing them in prayer and how to share their faith and it's beautiful But that's a very unique usage of the term discipleship.
Almost everybody else, when they talk about discipleship, it's just you and your thing. It's just you and Jesus. And it's not this gift of, thank you Pope Francis, accompaniment, uh, giving us a new term. We just weren't talking about the same things. 

[00:10:35] Michael: That's right. And that's what I was noticing that that, you know, that whatever the discrepancy that was there, um, and saying, I think we need to bring some clarity to this because there is a really good use of that term discipleship.
I mean, one of the other elements of it too is then we'd say, well, I'm going to disciple you, but actually I don't want you to be my disciple. I want you to be Jesus's disciple. Right. And, and so, uh, I can accompany you as you are a disciple of Jesus. Yeah. And so, the discipleship is between you and the Lord and I'm alongside, I'm along for the journey here, but this is your relationship.
So, it just felt like it helped clarify a few things, um, and just bring some better language to it. So, we quickly prepared a little document, just like a 10 or 15 page booklet for a conference that was coming up in Ottawa. Uh, it was just like, let's just put the, get it out there, put it on the table. And it was a few years later, I had moved into this, uh, out of the, you know, a management role in CCO and into this more just writing.
And I was like, I picked it up again. I was like, Oh, we can make this so much better. And my intention was just to kind of clean up the language, maybe add a. 10 or 15 pages. And every time I would write a little bit more, and I would, I would hand it over to people to review. I was like, sorry guys, I made it longer.
I know this wasn't really the intention. They said, no, keep going. So, I'd write a little more and be like, oh, sorry, I'd made it longer again. Like, and they're like, I think you've got more. And at one point I was like, well guys, it's going to turn into a book pretty soon instead of a booklet if we keep doing this.
And they said, okay, we'll make it a book. I was like, Oh, so we're going to write a book, I guess. Okay, off we go. Um, and so the whole goal though, was to, to take what we've learned over, you know, 30 plus years now as a movement, uh, working with university students, but we were also in that, in that time beginning to also translate that work out into non campus contexts.
Um, so primarily parishes. We would send our students on mission trips where they'd be working in parishes, but then we started coaching some parishes that wanted to take what we were doing on campus and to try to use the same principles and then adapt it to the, you know, a parish context or a diocesan context.
And so, It was kind of all at the same time that we said, well, we should, let's, let's put this all together in a way that we can communicate what we've learned out to the rest of the church. And so that's really what the, the goal of the book is to communicate what we've learned over 30 years of constantly trying to work one person at a time, walking alongside people, helping them in that journey of faith, knowing that the closer we can get to one on one, the more we're going to be able to have that individual impact in people's lives.
So yeah, that's really it. Just trying to share that out to the rest of the church. 

[00:13:14] Jim: That's awesome. It, it, it has been a gift. Michael, it's, there's so much in here. I mean, this is really like the, the individual skills of how do you teach someone to pray? How do you teach someone to share the gospel? How do you raise someone?
How do you help someone mature? How do you help them connect with the gospel and then discover their own kind of personal apostolate and mission? There's a couple of foundational things just at the start here. Do you have a little, like, what do you mean by the art of accompaniment? I mean, let's just start there.
What is accompaniment? What do you mean by it? 

[00:13:45] Michael: Well, as we've used the term a few times now, but it's this idea of walking alongside others on their journey. So it is, it's all about trying to, trying to see what is the Lord doing in a person's life. And then how is he asking me to help him do what he does?
He doesn't need me. He could do this on his own, but he chooses to invite us into the process and to work through us. Um, and that's, you know, that's that universal call to mission that we all have, that he's inviting each one of us, even though, again, he doesn't need us. He could do this all on his own, but he chooses to, to work through us to be able to help.
Uh, to use us to bring people closer to him. 

[00:14:24] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:14:24] Michael: So, for whatever reason, he's decided that's the best way. And we know that he's got the, you know, he's got all wisdom. So, he's right.

[00:14:30] Jim: Yeah.

[00:14:31] Michael: We certainly don't necessarily feel like we're the right people sometimes to work through, but he does it, nonetheless.
And so, the idea of accompaniment is just, is that, is that to just, okay, you're up to something, Lord. You know, that, that idea that he's knocking on the door of every person's heart, that he is, he's trying to get their attention. At every moment, every single person on the planet individually, he's trying to get their attention and we can come alongside people and walk with them on that journey.
And the way we'll walk with them will depend on where they are in their journey. And that can then, so that's where we get into the intentionality is that you start to. You shift the way you do it based on what does this person need in the moment? 

[00:15:10] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:15:10] Michael: You know, if they're just at the very beginning, it's going to be one way versus somebody who's, you know, uh, becoming a seasoned missionary disciple and it's a much different accompaniment, but nonetheless, it's the same principle walking alongside.
I'm seeing, what is the Holy Spirit doing in your life right now? And how can I help? Yeah, 

[00:15:25] Jim: I love that. And I think there's maybe an assumption that I want to make explicit here. And that is, this is the way we see Jesus doing ministry. I think sometimes, you know, it gets lost in the scriptures because the miracles, understandably, like kind of grab our attention, uh, and the crowds, but there's this backbeat and I love, you know, just a little shout out for the, the chosen, uh, series and video.
That's a great picture where you see Jesus. pouring into the lives of his closest disciples and apostles. And he's just, he's sharing life with them. They're camping, they're walking, they're, they're just, they're sharing a life together. And his, you see the way he is instructing them and modeling and, and interacting with them.
Just like you said, it changes based on their, as they continue to grow in maturity. But there's this assumption, I think that I want to make explicit is that Jesus, his best work was this. It's called Accompaniment Discipleship, where he was, you know, as a rabbi in the lives of his disciples. And he invites us to do the same thing as parents, as coworkers, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:16:32] Michael: Oh, so many things to say about that. One of the books that we've, uh, often had our staff read over the years is, uh, Master Plan of Evangelism. 

[00:16:40] Jim: Yes. 

[00:16:40] Michael: Robert Coleman, an old classic, right? Great, great book. Yes. But he talks about that, like the principle of association, the principle of demonstration, like he shows you how in the gospel stories, Jesus is doing those things.
He's, he's spending the time, you know, it's, it's, you know, just come and see. You know, just you come and see where I sleep and more how I eat, it's everything about his life. Yeah. The apostles are there with them all at every moment. And he invites them in. He does have his moments where he pulls away and he, you know, he's just him and the father, but he's just constantly bringing them and even bringing in the inner circle into, you know, come to the Mount of Transfiguration with me to see all of this.
It's all. He's always with them. 

[00:17:19] Jim: Michael, have you had a chance to get, be exposed to any of John Mark Comer's work? No. Great book, Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. I love it. 

[00:17:28] Michael: Okay. I've heard that title before.

[00:17:29] Jim: Yeah. To my shame, I've listened to it, uh, you know, on, on one and a half times speed, several, several times.
But one of the points that he makes, which is super profound is that many of us in the Western world have tried. We've only treated Jesus as a teacher, and we've tried To live his teaching. Without living his lifestyle and the fruit gets short circuited that there's something about the way Jesus lives and the way he invites us to live.
And in this case, in our context today, the way he invites us to minister that that's where the fruit comes from. And you've written this amazing book that man brings that out intentional accompaniment. This is how you do it. Michael, maybe just, you have a whole chapter, one of my favorites in the book, you talk about prophetic listening.
Say a little bit more about that. We've kind of touched on it, uh, already without saying the words. What's prophetic listening and how does that work? 

[00:18:27] Michael: I mean, that can seem like a very daunting term, right? You're like, Oh my goodness, I have to prophetically listen. What does that mean? How could I possibly do that?
And really at its most basic it's the Holy Spirit's doing things and you're asking, what are you doing? And how do you want me to help? What do I need to know in this moment? And to me, this only makes sense because we talk about our God as a very personal God. We expect him to show up in our personal prayer time.
We expect him to, we expect to be able to encounter him in the mass, in the confessional, like, you know, in all our sacramental life, all these different ways that he is very. He's personal, he's close to us. And I think sometimes we maybe don't make that shouldn't be that big of a leap, but it feels like a big leap that he wants to be that close and personal when we're in ministry, when we're reaching out to people and that he wants to give us insight into what he's doing because again, if he's that personal and he's asking me to be a part of somebody else's journey.
And he's got a plan, and he's working it out. To me, it only makes sense that he's going to let me in on the plan. Not the whole thing, but he's going to let me in on what I need to know for today. Um, and, and how I can, how he's asking me to help. 

[00:19:39] Jim: And I would add, in a way that fits me. Yes. Again, having done this, Uh, style of ministry for so many years, uh, so often in my own head, when I fail to ask the Lord, okay, what are you doing and how can I help?
What I assigned from, for me to do doesn't work because it's, it doesn't really fit me, right? I mean, one, I'm not cooperating with him, but I, I think we end up putting burdens on ourselves, uh, on ourselves. And I just want to. I want to be really clear for those of you who hear this like you're for many of the concept of intentional accompaniment mentoring someone discipling someone is like oh my goodness like this is I don't know and we want you to know you can do this he loves you right now even if you're feeling a tug in this conversation to something more.
But that first baby step is just asking him, Lord, what are you doing in my friend's life? And how are you inviting me to help? And I promise, whatever he answers, it'll fit you. 

[00:20:41] Michael: Absolutely. He'll push you outside your comfort zone at times, but not so much that you can't do it. You know, and he's, he's going to operate, he's going to operate through the gifts that he's given you.
Again, it makes sense. He's given you the gifts because he intends to use those gifts in the way that he, you know, he's designed for you. So yeah, we should expect that he's going to take the gifts that you have. And he's going to amplify those if we give him the chance. 

[00:21:08] Jim: Yeah. I mean, if the devil can't keep us from hearing the call to labor in the vineyard, then he wants to make that call feel bigger and harder.

[00:21:20] Michael: Yes. 

[00:21:21] Jim: You know. But it's a yoke that doesn't fit us. Uh, and in fact, it's like, no, it does. There's nothing more freeing and joyful and in many ways, easy than laboring with the Lord. If we remember to, to ask him. Okay, where, where, where and how Lord, what, what are you doing? Where are you inviting me? What's our next step?

[00:21:39] Michael: Absolutely. And I, and when I think about prophetic listening, there's two ways that I generally think about it. One is the in the moment skill of just like, okay, Lord, what are you doing in this particular conversation real time as it's happening? And then the other part is the, the preparatory work. 

[00:21:56] Jim: Yes.

[00:21:56] Michael: It's the, as I'm praying about. You know, a person and in interceding for them or preparing to have a conversation with them. It's him saying, here's what I'm about to do. And sometimes he'll give us those insights. 

[00:22:10] Jim: Yes. 

[00:22:10] Michael: You may even say a third part is afterwards, the reflection upon what just happened. Um, and say, okay, Lord, what, what do I need to know?
You know, especially when you're leading, say a small group of some sort, if you just take five or 10 minutes after, after you're done for that, that lesson, that, that meeting, whatever, just to say, Lord, what do I need to notice here? 

[00:22:28] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:22:29] Michael: What are you going to bring to the forefront that I should, I should be paying attention to.

[00:22:33] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:22:33] Michael: And just letting him do that. Let him, let him show you this. Like, actually, you might not have noticed this, but Johnny really seemed to struggle or Johnny really seemed to latch onto this, um, positively when you, when you mentioned this particular thing and you go, Oh yeah, I didn't, I didn't quite notice it in the moment, but I sit down and pray about it and then it'll come up.

[00:22:52] Jim: Yeah. Oh, that's so good guys. This is gold. Like, I mean, basically you do like a debrief with Jesus. So, Jesus, let's talk about small group tonight. How'd it go? And he's like, okay, good. Nice job. Like just, you know, don't be so nervous by the way. Did you notice Johnny? Like, I love it. I love it. It's, it's so, so good.
And it's so freeing again, for those of us. Who, right, sometimes get in our own heads and, and imagine that our, our fruitfulness in ministry is somehow, uh, you know, we're like trying to perform to win God's love. There's nothing better than to sit back after we've had a moment of service and let the Lord show us what he did and let him, let him show us what he did through us.

[00:23:38] Michael: And our Holy Fathers point us to this, right? They're showing, they're telling us you need to, like Pope Francis in Evangelii Gaudium, I believe, he talks about we need to be spirit filled evangelizers. Well, what does that mean if we aren't listening to him? And, um, in the book we quote from, uh, Evangelii Nuntiandi 75, where Pope Paul VI talks about that we need to be awesomely listening to the Holy Spirit, letting him be the decisive inspirer of our plans and initiatives in evangelization.
Well, what else could that mean other than that he wants to give us insight? So, this is really, it's just, this is the skill. 

[00:24:14] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:24:15] Michael: And sometimes we'll say this is really like the, the Preeminent skill for intentional accompaniment is just to be able to listen. Yeah, and then, and then act anyway, and it, it always has to go with action afterwards.
If he's going to give us insight, we need to then act the way it act upon that. Um, and he may give it a clear instruction on how to do that, or he may not. And then, you know, he just, but whatever it is, we still need to act upon it and say, okay, Lord, you're, you're showing me this, you're inviting me to this.
Now, off I go. 

[00:24:43] Jim: Oh, that's awesome. That's so good. So, Michael, if we can shift a little bit, again, one of the things that I have always really appreciated and admired about, uh, CCO is how faithfully and consistently CCO staff and students are able to offer a clear and explicit proclamation of the gospel, just very naturally in conversation.
So, like, Hey. You know, Jesus loves you, but your life kind of stinks right now. You are feeling the effects of sin and, you know, the Lord is offering you something. Do you want to say yes? Do you want him to change your life? And again, that's my own little kind of like summary. This kind of invitation to conversion, you know, you talk about how that really is, that's a hinge.
On which evangelization turns, just if you can't expand more on all of that for us, what is conversion and why is it such a key moment in evangelization? 

[00:25:44] Michael: That's a dangerous question because we could go for a long, long time.

[00:25:47] Jim: I know it's one of my favorites too. 

[00:25:49] Michael: Absolutely. Okay. So first, just to the point of like, you're mentioning the, the skill of doing it.
I think as a church, we've gotten a lot better in the last couple decades. 

[00:25:59] Jim: Yes.

[00:25:59] Michael: At Kerygmatic proclamation and, you know, sharing the Kerygma we've, we've, we've learned the importance of, of needing to speak of the gospel in a clear and simple way that people can understand and boiling it down to that basic premise of, you know, as you kind of outlined, God's love for us, the relationships broken through sin.
That's what Jesus came to fix through his life, his death, his resurrection. And now we have a choice, but often. We stop short of saying, so what do you want to do with that? And, and we, we get right up to that point and it's like, we've led them right to the precipice. And then we just say, hope you figure it out from there.
And that's the most important moment. 

[00:26:46] Jim: Yeah. Uh, and just quickly for like, for the non-nerds in the group, right. Kerygma, Kerygmatic proclamation. Like that's, you know, it's a Greek word that means proclamation and it is come to mean the core message of that proclamation. The core message of the gospel.
Jesus loves you. Sin's ruining things. You're going to, are you going to let him fix it or not? Right. That's, that's kind of like, that's what Kerygma means. It's that core message. Michael, talk about. What do you do? Let's say there has been this moment where the good news, the gospel has been preached, maybe on a retreat, uh, maybe in a homily, who knows what, little YouTube video, and you happen to be present to someone in that context where they've heard it.
You're saying, It's not enough to say, so, so you ought to think about that, see you later, good luck. We should invite people to say, hey, do you want to let him in? What do you say? Say more about that, because I think that concept is probably a little, little scary for some people. 

[00:27:51] Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be daunting because it's, it's daunting enough to lead them to that point.

[00:27:58] Jim: Yes., 

[00:27:58] Michael: That we say, say you should think about it. That that can be scary enough. Uh, and then to actually make it really clear and direct to say, so what do you think? What do you want to do right now? 

[00:28:11] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:28:11] Michael: That's what's so often missing because it's, we're just, we're leaving people hanging and we don't give them the answer to the cliffhanger at that moment.

[00:28:20] Jim: Yeah. I've heard people refer to it as like the golden question. Yeah. That like you get to this moment and then you just, yes, you're emotionally, you're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I just talked about Jesus, and I'm so freaked out. I have no more energy left but hang in there. There's one more. It's like, so do you want to give your life to Jesus or whatever?
There's a, you know, various ways you can ask it, but that's, that's essential. 

[00:28:45] Michael: Absolutely. And it can be. Essentially saying, you know, because often when I would share the Kerygma with people, the last point would be, so now you have a choice, like the offer is yours. You don't have, like Jesus has done all of this for you and he's offering you that gift, but it's up to you now, what to do with it from here.

[00:29:04] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:29:04] Michael: So, then you can just say to people, what type of relationship would you like with God? 

[00:29:09] Jim: Yes.

[00:29:09] Michael: Like I've just described this to you. Does that sound like what you would like? 

[00:29:13] Jim: Yes. 

[00:29:14] Michael: And if, I think in, in many cases, if we've gotten to the point where we can describe this to people, uh, and they're still listening and they're still in the conversation, then often that is what they want and they don't know how to get there.

[00:29:26] Jim: Yes. 

[00:29:27] Michael: And so, we can just show them that first step by saying, well, I could pray with you right now. 

[00:29:32] Jim: Yes. 

[00:29:33] Michael: And it doesn't have to be a complicated prayer. 

[00:29:35] Jim: Yeah. Share some, if you would like, could you just bring this to life in a story? Just like, how does this, how does this work? And I'll ask later, but what happens afterwards?
Because I think the effect, we've been able to see of these simple moments, they are profound turning points for people. But give us a picture, like, just tell us a story, because I'm sure you've got dozens and dozens. I'll, uh, 

[00:29:59] Michael: I'll make it a little more hypothetical here, but, you know, just kind of walk through the Kerygma again and then kind of bring it.
So, it's, this is how I would often share it with people. So, you know, explain, you know, that how God loves us. Um, and then I would say, but do you experience that in your life? Like, we're supposed to have this personal love, loving relationship with God. Is that how you experience or is that how you think most people experiencing it?
I experienced it and they would often say, no, that's not what I'm experiencing. I'll say, okay, so there's probably a problem, right? If that's what we're supposed to have. Well, it sounds like there's an issue. Well, what our faith teaches us is that the issue is actually that we sin, which basically means we don't choose love.
We choose against the love of God. We choose against love of other people. And we all know that we don't, that we're not perfect. So, I don't really need to convince you of that probably. And people go, yeah, I get that. So, okay, so we have a problem. Well, it would be really unfortunate if that was the end of our message.
Like, there's a problem. We blew it. Oh, well, you see, no, there's, there's good news. There's, there's a solution. Um, and that's what Jesus came to do. And he came to, to be able to, to fix that for us. So, the question comes back to, though, you said you're not experiencing that. So, if there's been a solution and you're not experiencing it, then what's next?
Well, there's gotta be something I think we have to do at this point. So, does that sound like a relationship you would like to have with God? 

[00:31:25] Jim: Yeah, I love that. 

[00:31:26] Michael: And often what we do is we share, we have our little diagrams and lots of different groups have very similar, you know, the kind of the three diagram, you know, and it's like, um, you know, your relationship with God can be like, you're single, essentially, that there's no connection with him, um, or essentially.
Like a dating, let's make it clear, it's not exactly the same what we're talking about here, but like akin to a relationship. 

[00:31:49] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:31:49] Michael: Yeah. And so like, there's a limited commitment and they're a part of your life, but they're not the, you know, that's the center of your life, at least if it's healthy. And then there's marriage where that person that you've married is now at the center of your life and everything, all of your life now revolves around that relationship, that commitment that you've made.
And we say, well, which one best represents your relationship with God right now? And we just let them tell us. We don't have to tell them. It's not our job to say what, where we think their relationship is. It's up to them to figure that out and say, well, which one do you want to represent your relationship with God?
And they say, well, that third one sounds great. The marriage like one where I'm in a relationship, a loving relationship with God. So, okay, well, then can I just. Can we just, you know, the way to take that first step is just to pray and just say, welcome, welcome into my heart. So, could we do that right now?
And you take a minute to pray with them and it just starts that, that, uh, it's the, so when we talk about conversion, we we've seen basically that there's three elements to an initial conversion, that there's the intellectual part, there's the, the, the will, and then there's the emotions. And so really what we're talking about here is the will.
This is the choice. The I say yes, the I do essentially.

[00:32:59] Jim: Yeah.

[00:33:00] Michael: Of the wedding vow, right? Um, because you can intellectually decide you'd like to marry somebody, but it's, um, then you have to now actually perform the act. 

[00:33:08] Jim: Yeah, but you're not married until you say I do. 

[00:33:10] Michael: Exactly, and so in a similar way, like, We can, we can, well, that's, that was my own experience, right, is that I came to believe in God and I gave some, there was some assent in my will in the sense that I tried to live in certain ways, but I didn't really know him.
Well, then I met him and then it was a much more full yes that I was going to say. 

[00:33:28] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:33:28] Michael: So, then my will kicks in. We have to come to believe in the truth. That's the intellectual part. And that's where a lot of the great programs that are out there. They help us lead us there. And that's always got to be part of the conversion experience is believing that God's real, believing in the message of the Kerygma.
But then you have to choose it for yourself. You have to make that personal decision. John Paul II talks about this in Redemptoris Missio. He says that conversion means accepted by a personal decision, the saving sovereignty of Christ and becoming his disciple. So, we have to make that choice. And that choice is a personal decision we have to make.
And then there's the element of, there's the emotional element, which sometimes people, they're not quite sure what to do with that. They're like, what are you talking about? Like an emotionalism? No, I'm not meaning like somebody has to be balling in the corner. Although that certainly can happen. It can sometimes be a very overwhelming experience in your initial conversion.
If there's a true relationship. And there's no emotion. There isn't much of a relationship there. I mean, every relationship you have, whether you're, uh, to your spouse, to your children, to your friends. Again, it may not be overwhelming emotion at every moment, but if it's emotionless, if your faith is emotionless.
Then there's probably an element that we're missing because it's meant to be a relationship with a person and a loving relationship. Well, that requires emotion. So that means and recognizing God loves us fully and completely and we can never do anything to change how fully and completely he loves us.
So, recognizing he's loved me first and now I have to now begin to respond to that. Yeah. And might be a baby step or it might be just an immediate, just the watershed is open and off we go. 

[00:35:14] Jim: Yeah. You know, I've been blessed, Michael, again, I really inspired by this practice and how good CCO was at, at doing it and teaching it and helping kind of break down.
It was a major kind of second conversion moment in my missionary life. And, and I was blessed, I mean, on so many different occasions, but to see. In some ways, both of those extremes, blessed to be with a, with a young man, uh, at a big conference, um, it was after a talk I'd given and, you know, as, as he and I were speaking afterwards, it was just very clear, you know, I was, I was able to ask him, it's like, let's just say Dave, like Dave, can you, would you say that you're all in with Jesus?
And it's like. But do you want to be like? Yeah. Do you want to pray right now? Okay. And it was just this beautiful short Jesus. I want to, I want to go all in. And Dave went all in. I mean, he was weeping, and it was this beautiful, profound pivot point for him, despite the fact that he was already in a small group.
He had already been to confession. He had already received grace in so many other ways. But it was that engagement of his will that made all the difference. And I've also been with, with people who, who seemingly said no. Right, who at a moment, you know, they're like, Nah, no, I'm afraid. I remember this wonderful young woman.
It's like, no, I'm pretty sure he's going to make me be a nun and I'm not into that. Yep. Okay, well, you know, and it was just, something always happens. Something beautiful always happens, even if it seems like it's a I'm not sure or no, thank you. Something beautiful always happens when we bring people to a moment of encounter and decision with our Lord.

[00:37:08] Michael: I love the way you described that, you know, the young man, Dave, that he, you know, he was already in a small group. He was already active in his faith. Yeah, but there was something. And I think. Something's missing so often for so many of our fellow parishioners who are there every Sunday and they're faithful but nobody's asked them this question so clearly and that's a huge error on our part.

[00:37:33] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:37:33] Michael: And we're doing them a disservice because they're called to make a personal commitment to the Lord. And that's what he wants. And if we don't give them the opportunity to know not only that they should do it, but actually the opportunity to actually do it, to do it. 

[00:37:49] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:37:49] Michael: We're leaving them hanging and for so many people their faith doesn't actually come alive in their life.
It becomes something they do You know an element of their life, but it's not they're not all in because nobody's actually asked them, "Do you want to go all in," and they don't realize they should, or they don't know how. 

[00:38:06] Jim: And what better safer place to, to be able... I've been brought to this moment and here I have this friend with me who is an accompanying me and it's like, Hey, this is, this is you in Jesus.
But can I say it's worth it? Can I pray for you as you contemplate this? Can I just be with you when, when your desire is there, but the words are not. Can I say the words, you know, Jesus, I'm sorry, I want to start over. All of that, just to be with people is such a privileged space as a, as a parent, as a sibling, you know, coworkers on and on.
I just want to address, I know we weren't planning, planning on this. Trust that the Spirit's leading this conversation. For those who are thinking like, oh man, this sounds kind of Protestant. You know, like this doesn't really sound, I love, I want, you quoted John Paul II, that his, There's a need for a decision, but when we have eyes to see it, this is so deep within our tradition as Catholics, you know, I mean, I think about St.
Ignatius and the, the election, the call to decision that he makes, you know, in his spiritual exercises or that he. invites people to make you think about, Oh, professional vows, uh, you know, for religious life, you think about the renewal of our baptismal promises every Easter you think about, Oh, I mean, going to mass is really an altar call again, where we step forward and we again say, yes, I receive you, Jesus, not just into my heart, but into my body.
I mean, this is so who we are. It's just that we're kind of rediscovering it right now. 

[00:39:44] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. It is intertwined in and it's not hard to go and read through the various saints. I mean, just go pick up the catechism. This is all in there. 

[00:39:54] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:39:54] Michael: That we need to make these personal choices in our lives.

[00:39:59] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:39:59] Michael: And, and I think, yeah, it does get a little bit wrapped up with, uh, or it can be people put an objection in there too. Yeah. It sounds too Protestant. It sounds too evangelical and that sort of thing. And, and my response, I mean, you know, as I shared at the beginning, I have great, great respect for a lot of them.
And my response to maybe it's because there's actually a, this is something we can learn from is how, how good they've gotten at making that clear and how much more full we can make it because we make it sacramental now that we can bring people not just to a decision. And it's important to note too, right?
When we say we should pray and somebody needs to make a decision, they've experienced conversion. This is not now the end of the journey. 

[00:40:39] Jim: Mm hmm. 

[00:40:40] Michael: This is just step one, right? No, it's not a, not a once saved, always saved sort of moment. This is, but this is a, this is a planting the flag sort of moment that you can look back two years later and say, no, I know that something profound happened that day.
And hopefully also be able to look back and say and look at how much growth there's been since then. 

[00:41:01] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:41:01] Michael: You know, you know, you think about it in a marriage perspective that the, the yes, you give. On your wedding day. It's as full of yes, as you can give that day, but 15, 20 years later, that yes. Should be.
Even more full, right? And you, you, you, it's way deeper because, you know, now way more, you know, more about each other. You've gone through so many experiences, and you continually say yes over and over and over again. So, you can look back and say, boy, I didn't realize what I was saying yes to that day. 

[00:41:34] Jim: Yeah, everybody who's married is laughing or like, tell me about it.

[00:41:39] Michael: Yeah. Um. And, but I said it with the best, the best I could that day. I gave everything I could that day. But my yes today is a way more mature yes than it was. That doesn't invalidate the yes from your wedding day. That just means you've gotten better at it. 

[00:41:54] Jim: Well, yeah, because I couldn't be here today if I didn't say yes, then exactly.

[00:41:58] Michael: Yeah. And there's a, there's a yes. It happens in your baptism that you're, you know, especially when we're talking about cradle Catholics that your parents say on your behalf. But then there is an expectation that you will affirm that yes in your own life later on. And for those that are baptized as adults, then obviously it all comes together.
But even before the baptismal yes, there's been yeses that lead you to baptism. Yes. You know, and so there's that there's the whole element of The sacramental life and then everything that goes the whole life of discipleship, which includes our sacramental life, all of it has to become together. 

[00:42:32] Jim: Michael, this is, this is awesome.
Our time is flying. Can you just give a little teaser and maybe we'll have you back, uh, for, you know, for another. Uh, conversation here to give a little teaser after someone has said yes, what are the type of things that someone can do to accompany someone as they grow and as they eventually take on their own sense of calling, uh, and mission to share their faith.

[00:43:01] Michael: Well, and that's a good way of putting it because it's um, the, the accompaniment that you'll do prior to initial conversion is going to look different than the accompaniment afterwards. That's why we call it that, that hinge moment where everything hinges upon it, that the way I'm going to approach this relationship is going to be different now, because now that you've said, this person said yes to Jesus, and they want to live as a disciple.
Now we want to grow them in both holiness and mission as kind of like the two pillars of, of discipleship. 

[00:43:29] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:43:29] Michael: Yeah. And so, how do we do that? I mean, when I look at how do we help somebody grow in holiness? One of the first things is just teach them how to pray. Yeah. Teach them like just really simple personal prayer.

[00:43:41] Jim: Yeah.

[00:43:42] Michael: And when I say that, I mean, yes, it's good to teach them the, the rosary and, and the chaplain, divine Mercy and all of those wonderful devotionals are really important. My intentions not to downplay them. 

[00:43:51] Jim: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:52] Michael: But if it doesn't also correspond with a really growing. Life of personal prayer where they actually are in conversation with the Lord.

[00:44:00] Jim: Yes. 

[00:44:01] Michael: I very strong proponent of that happening within the scriptures And we know that you know Catechism will teach us that the scriptures is where the Lord speaks to us I think is it St Jerome who has that great quote of like that that's where the Lord speaks to us is in the scriptures that we see him in Prayer and he speaks to us in the scriptures So teaching them how to do those things, which again, take those principles we mentioned earlier of association and demonstration, sit down and pray with them, take a prayer time with them, like just simple things like that will, will start them along the way.
I think also one of the things that we should avoid is making it, um. overly focused on moral conversations at the beginning. That's not to say that we shouldn't have conversations about more issues of mortal sin and that sort of stuff. Those do have to happen as well. We need, those things need to be rooted out in people's lives.
But if we start there and kind of stay there, it's like, okay, good. You've experienced conversion. Now let's fix all the things that are wrong with your life. We're not sending them on the trajectory towards a deep, personal, intimate relationship with Jesus. We're now going to make it quickly about checklists.
So, there's a balance to strike there that we need to bring them into a deep relationship with Jesus. We're not bringing them into a relationship with the Holy Spirit because we want them to know. That that person of the Trinity who is actually residing within them through their baptism, um, and who's the one who's going to give them the ability to say Jesus is Lord that will teach them to pray.
Um, so introducing them to the person of the Holy Spirit and his role in their lives, uh, are, I think those are all good initial steps and in everything it's. Just being with those people and spending time together talking about things, talking about what you're reading, what you're experiencing in your prayer life, what well, scriptures that are standing out to you.
All those things are just really great ways to help people grow in holiness. On the mission side, you know, one of the things Pope Francis talks about is that we don't need to be trained, you know, in all the ways of evangelization before we go out, that it's good to go out. And he talks about, you know, the idea of, you know, we need to get a little bit messy, and we have to be comfortable with that.
Well, I'm a big proponent that people should admit like right away be sent out. To go into the mission of the church, because we want, that is part of that call of, of being a disciple of Christ. And that starts just as simple as, uh, you know, one of the things we'll do often on campus, just as a quick example, is that when somebody has this conversion experience, they say, yes, we pray with them.
If there's other people from CCO nearby, we'll say, hey, can we go tell them about what just happened? And we'll just bring them over and if there's just like, you know, if it might just be a handful of people sitting in a cafeteria, you know, or in your chaplaincy office or whatever you've got and we say, hey, hey, this can, can Sam just tell you, but what just happened, Sam, just describe what the conversation we just had and, and that little prayer that you said, how are you feeling right now?
What's going on? It's an initial witness that they're giving without even fully realizing it. Oh, it's so good. And then we say, you know what? Go tell your friend about that too. 

[00:47:05] Jim: Okay. Yeah, well, because it makes, I mean, new believers still have friends that are unbelievers. Absolutely. Those of us who've been walking with the Lord for a while, it gets harder and harder for us to maintain intentional friendships with those who are not in relationship with the Lord. Hopefully not because we're being judgy, but just because there's so many wonderful people that you start meeting when you're in the Christian community and new believers, they still have a lot of friends that aren’t, and they have the enthusiasm and the freshness that is powerful.
Oh my gosh, Michael, we can talk about all of this stuff. Uh, we could, yeah, we've got like 10 other conversations that we did to schedule here. 

[00:47:46] Michael: Yeah. 

[00:47:47] Jim: Let me just give you a chance to give some closing advice. What would you say to someone listening right now? They want to take a first step in helping others encounter Jesus and mature as disciples.
Where do they begin? 

[00:47:58] Michael: Just do it. Take a first step, like just, just go because anybody, like we were just saying, you know, anyone can be a witness. Um, and, and the, it might just be as simple as just being a little bit more open about the fact that you're a faithful person. 

[00:48:16] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:48:17] Michael: And just being willing to talk about that.
It can be as simple as when some, when you come to the office, I think I use this example in the book, but when you come to the office on Monday and people ask, how was your weekend? And you don't mention that you went to mass on Sunday because you tell them about all the other stuff. I raked the lawn, I took the kids to practice, and you know, we, we had a family dinner, uh, and watched a movie.
And you just don't mention that you went to church. Probably most cases, it's not that you're intentionally leaving it out, but just intentionally put it in. Oh, that's great. It can be just as simple as that, because that can be the little seed that might lead to a second conversation. I love it. It just, as a, as just a little example of that, uh, on my son's hockey team right now, again, a good little Canadian, um, note there, right?
Um, there was a rumor going around that I was a pastor. Sure. That's great. And so finally, one of the parents came and asked, I didn't know, but the parent came, and I was like, so, so we've heard that you're a pastor. Is that right? And I was like, having to like, well, no, but I get it. And it's not too far off, but like trying to describe a little bit of like, how do you describe lay Catholic ministry?
Like not working at a parish. 

[00:49:30] Jim: So, you're a priest? No. 

[00:49:32] Michael: Well, that came up too. Yeah. 

[00:49:33] Jim: I know. Yeah. 

[00:49:34] Michael: Yeah. No, I've got children. They're like, well, I don't know how this works. I was like, it's fine. It's fine. Don't worry about it. But. I've seen just through those little things where it's uh, you know, you go away to a tournament with, with the team and I take my son to mass and then the questions I start getting from people.

[00:49:50] Jim: Yes. 

[00:49:51] Michael: Just because you did the little thing that you went to mass. And I'm not saying, Hey everybody, by the way, I'm going to church. I don't know if any of you know. None of you. No. Okay. Let's fine. Yeah. I'll pray for you. No, I just go to mass. But maybe you have to mention it like to the team manager 'cause we're gonna miss a meal.
It'll be late for, you know, a game like, uh, for just. The warmup or something like that and then it just starts to filter out and then somebody just might ask a question and that leads to another conversation. So, you can just take those first steps. Just do it. And I think the other big thing I'd say is pray, grow your personal prayer life because that's where the prophetic listening happens.
That's where you can be paying attention to the Holy Spirit. And what you'll see is holiness and mission really build each other up. So, as we pray, yeah. Our hearts should be being formed more and more to look like the father's heart. You know, that's the whole idea of prayer, right? It should be, I want to be a greater reflection of God and his heart and who he is.
Well, his heart is primarily for his children. And to bring everyone into relationship with him, that's the whole reason the church exists, is to bring the world into relationship with God. So, if that's what God's heart is, and I'm praying, then my heart should then be turned towards his people. Which means I will want to go out and bring them into relationship with God.
But then as I do that, I'm going to realize, I don't have a clue what to do. And so, I'm going to go back to my knees and say, God, I don't know what to do. And that gives him the opportunity to speak into my life and to build me up in both holiness and mission. And then I will go back out even more. And then I'm going to still be like, I still don't know what to do.
I know a little bit more than I did before. And it's just this great cycle. Yeah. And as, you know, as, as my mission grows, my holiness has to grow alongside it. And as my holiness grows, it should draw me more and more into the mission. So, if you want to get. To be evangelizing, like, make sure you're praying.

[00:51:49] Jim: Yeah.

[00:51:50] Michael: Don't let that, but don't wait until you've, you know, mastered the prayer, you know, the art of the spiritual life before you go out there. Just take some steps, go and just do it. And then find some people to help you out. Find some people to coach you, to mentor you, you know, who are, uh, who've done this so they can, they can help you grow.

[00:52:07] Jim: Yeah. Oh, this is gold. Everybody. Uh, we're going to link, uh, to Michael's book, intentional accompaniment, uh, an apprenticeship for a new generation of builders. Michael Hall. Thank you. Thank you for your ministry. Thank you for making the time today. 

[00:52:23] Michael: Oh, thanks for having me. This is great. And I'll be happy to have more conversations down the road.

[00:52:27] Jim: Absolutely. All right, everybody. Until then, uh, you know, somebody who needs to hear this. So, you know, when you're done walking the dog, uh, go ahead and share this out, uh, with a, with a friend and go check out the show notes. We'll put intentional accompaniment, uh, there, and maybe a few other goodies. Okay.
Thanks again, Michael. 

[00:52:46] Michael: Thanks a lot. 

[00:52:47] Jim: God bless everybody.