[00:00:00] Jim: Everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. I just had the most amazing conversation with Dan Burke. For those of you who don't know, Dan Burke is a journalist, author, spiritual director, uh, and Dan and I sit down to have a really honest conversation about his story and about the heart of evangelization, about love. This is really one of the most memorable conversations we've ever had on the EquipCast, and it's one that you need to listen to.
Have a listen. 

[00:00:31] Intro: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the equip cast, a weekly podcast for the arch diocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission.
Let's go. 

[00:00:49] Jim: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the equip cast. I am really excited to introduce you to our guest today, uh, Dan Burke. Welcome to the EquipCast.
How you doing?

[00:00:59] Dan: Good. It's great to be with you. 

[00:01:00] Jim: Okay. So, Dan, I wanna give you a chance to share a little bit of your story.
We just kind of met over the phone here. I had a chance to see your, uh, story, a kind of an extended testimony on YouTube. Honestly, one of the most powerful and I think helpful stories, particularly for those of us who are trying to evangelize in today's culture. Can you just give us a little bit of a thumbnail sketch of your story? 

[00:01:30] Dan: Sure.
Well, I'm Jewish by birth, still Jewish. That's confusing. I can clarify if you want, but I'm a Hebrew Catholic. My father was agnostic, my parents were divorced young. First Catholic I ever met fired a gun in our home, beat my mother into the emergency room, and terrorized us kids.
And, uh, my mother, to deal with it, was involved in we went to synagogue, but she was also involved in the occult. And, unfortunately, sometimes when you call into the darkness, something comes. Mhmm. Fortunately, most of the time, nothing does come, but that's why we have exorcists when something does come. So that happened in our home, and, uh, so my childhood was a terrorizing, dark, you know, kind of situation, and it resulted in one of my brothers attempting suicide and another brother, I guess, succeeding, uh, event in a way, drug induced heart attack.
And, you know, so, um, I was really the only one who made it out partially sane, although I have, I have another brother who's working on it. But so about 19 or so, I was in total despair, and I learned something that everybody knows who's been through abuse that when you leave the home, it doesn't leave you. It stays with you, and especially if there's demonic elements to it. So, so I cried out to the lord. I remember exactly where I was, and then he started to send people to me.
It was like, he said, okay. I heard you. I'm gonna send, you know, here's the first one. Who's strong enough to deal with your sin and your prickliness as my mother-in-law would say from Costa Rica that like a porcupine. I love it.
I cried out to the Lord. He started to send people into my life. First, it was evangelical Christians. I guess he couldn't find any Catholics that would say yes at the time. Or maybe I wouldn't listen to them.
I don't know. Because of my stepfather. But, um, I probably wouldn't have listened. That's why he sent the others. Yeah.
And so, I mean, I could go on, but the crux of it is I came to believe in the veracity or the reliability or the historical soundness from the standpoint of archaeology and internal consistency and manuscript evidence. I came to like this sort of legal view of the veracity of the Old Testament, which meant that it was beyond a reasonable doubt a reliable document. From there, I was led to challenge to then compare the claims of Jesus against the Jewish concept of the Messiah and what you know, to whom he would be born, where he would be born, what he would do, how he would be killed, all of that. And that also was very rational to me and beyond a reasonable doubt. The testimony of the 4 witnesses, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
I read a book by Simon Greenleaf, who was in the nineteenth century. He was the head of evidences or the primary expert at evidences or evidence in Harvard Law School, meaning he wrote the textbook on how you weigh the testimony of a witness. Yeah. What evidence is by definition and then strengths and weaknesses. And he was an atheist, and he decided to put the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John on the on the witness stand and cross examine them.
And in the process of doing that, using his Harvard Law School, you know, scholarship, he became a Christian. So, books like that That's great. I love it. So that's kind of the this the intellectual side of my conversion was but there were people delivering these things to me, working with me through these all along the way. And there were people also who were very self-sacrificial, um, so that I would listen, which is, I think, an important part of our conversation.
Eventually, I was very anti Catholic, eventually I became Catholic in a similar way, but a little less intellectual because I didn't need as much of that. Mhmm. People helping me bridge the gap between my Protestant perspective on Jesus and the church and to a Catholic one, and then eventually, you know, I became Catholic, which I have been since 2005. But that's in an that's sort of the skeleton. I don't know where you wanna dig in on the details. But... 

[00:06:17] Jim: Well, I'm just I mean, I'm curious. Was there a time you mentioned you were, you know, ethnically Jewish, born Jewish, and there's a time where you're coming to believe in the veracity of the scriptures. Was there a time that you kind of began to be religiously Jewish in the interim between accepting the Old Testament and then accepting the New Testament? 

[00:06:39] Dan: Probably not. I mean, it's hard to say.
I I've always been a religious person in the sense that because I was exposed to demonic activity as a young person, very young, you can't not be religious and or you're not sane. I mean, either you're not sane and you're imagining things, or you believe in, you know, other worldly realities. And but I lived through it. So, believing was… has never been a question for me. But, uh, we went to synagogue, and I identified as a Jew and I still do.

[00:07:16] Jim: Mhmm. 

[00:07:16] Dan: Like, that's, you know, people's people say, well, you know, they're Irish or they're Italian, full blood Italian. I, you know, I, like I feel that way. Yeah. And I went to Bar Mitzvahs, and I had an aunt and uncle, Sadie and Hai, and they were, my uncle wore a black hat, and he had the, you know, the Orthodox curls, and, you know, we celebrated Passover or not.
But we were reformed Jews, which are sort of like cultural Catholics, end quotes. Um, so religion was as much it was an identity, but it was like a social construct more than a faith. But for me, I don't recall ever not having faith, and maybe it's just because of what I saw as a kid. Yeah. I don't know.
I just never I've always believed in something other. You know? 

[00:08:07] Jim: When did Jesus as kind of like a personal figure enter in? Because you mentioned there was a little bit of an intellectual conversion happening. When did Jesus as a person kinda begin to capture your imagination in your heart?

[00:08:22] Dan: When he revealed himself as a person through other people. Like, the first encounter with a Christian that I didn't, you know, I had no connection with was a guy named Mark. I was working at Pizza Hut. I had moved from Los Angeles to Phoenix to go to school, and I was, uh, when you grow up the way I did, people hurt. And so, I had a barrier.
I had an attitude. Let's say it that way. I had an attitude and a disposition that you had to overcome if you wanted to talk to me because I was trying to protect myself from you because you're a person and people hurt. You've met people like this, very grouchy and gruff, and language isn't so good. They're not so friendly.
So, I've got to work for Pizza Hut, and I'm doing the dishes, and this dude named Mark shimmies up next to me and says, hey. I'm done with my work. Can I help you? And my name's Mark. And I said, sure.
In my mind, I'm thinking, what an idiot. Yeah. Go ahead. Like, I wouldn't be doing that for you, but if you wanna do it for me, that's fine. You know?
Then he did it again, and he did it again. And I and I started to wonder what was going on. And the only thing I could conclude, given the way I thought then, was that he was gay and that he was, you know, hitting on me or something. And I what I'm saying to you is my mindset back then. Yeah.
You know, I have a huge respect for courage and people who struggle with same sex attraction, all that. But I'm just saying the way I thought back then. So, the way I would have dealt with it back then is to put his lights out, uh, so that he had pain associated with his misunderstanding of my, uh, uh, my preferences. So, I took him out back, and I don't remember what I said to him, but I remember him backing up with his hands up, startled and like, no. I'm a Christian.
I… you know? I'm supposed to be nice. This is what we do. You know? Please don't hit me.
Right. Please don't hit me. Then he gave, you know, he told me his testimony. He told me about how he was a cocaine addict, and he got hooked up on cocaine because he was a musician, and he, you know, helped him to play. Mhmm.
But then he it sort of wrecked his life. And so that first encounter with Jesus was Mark, was his name was Mark, and he loved me. I mean, you know, his love for God and his love for me was stronger than my repulsion, stronger than his fear, and stronger than his, you know, timidity. His love overcame his own frailties and weaknesses and fears to deal with me, and it had a big effect on me. 

[00:11:16] Jim: Talk about that effect.
What happened? 

[00:11:18] Dan: Well, I mean, you know, it made me open to the faith. Uh, you know, he another thing happened, which is fascinating too is the day that I was on bathroom duty, like, my first bathroom duty. 

[00:11:31] Jim: Cleaning. Right?
Your still at Pizza Hut and you gotta... 

[00:11:33] Dan: Cleaning a public bathroom. Yes. Yeah. That's a rough day. I whined about it, and he said he would do it.
And I honestly don't recall ever cleaning the bathrooms again or ever having to. And I think because, you know, he did it. So, the effect on me was it you know, I always like to say love builds a bridge over which truth can pass. I'm not talking about using your stupid turn signals or opening the door for people or restraining your instinct to kick puppies because none of that's gonna get is not gonna get you to heaven or help anyone else to heaven. But I'm talking about truly implicating yourself in the lives of others, giving yourself to others in your testimony, whatever that may be, even if you're like a cradle Catholic and you you're maybe like Therese and you had some minor temper issue at some point.
But still, you know, every Catholic has a story about why they didn't abandon their faith. Yeah. They have a story it lets if they never did, they have a story about why it's always remained with them. They can bear testimony to, They can say, I know Jesus is real, and I know what it's like to be in relationship with him. Every Catholic can do that.
But whether or not it will be heard is dependent on the degree to which you love. You know, you and I have a mutual I mean, you know her better than I do, Michelle Dupont Yeah. Whose process is underway of to be canonized. You hired her. Right?

[00:13:04] Jim: Mhmm. 

[00:13:05] Dan: For which diocese? This the one you're in now? Or... 

[00:13:08] Jim: She was a student at North Dakota State University, and I was working in regional leadership for FOCUS. She interviewed and, somewhat sad to say, we didn't offer her a job right away.
We weren't so sure about this girl. Um, wasn't sure if she was a good fit. And then, eventually, thanks to the intervention of her pastor and, uh, team leader at the time who just told me we were crazy for not, we ended up hiring her. And she came to work at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, where I was. 

[00:13:40] Dan: And then she ended up getting cancer.
Yes. I met her, uh, when she was in Nebraska. I was working with this with this, uh, spiritual, uh, direction program there and was talking with her. But the point being, something you said about her that I that I also recognize in her, and people said about John Paul the second, if they were talking to you, you were the only person that existed. There's this deep kind of conveyance of love and care for you.

[00:14:10] Jim: Yeah.

[00:14:10] Dan: That emanated from her heart and her disposition that made you want to connect with her and actually made thousands of people want to connect with her. Right? Yeah. You know?

[00:14:20] Jim: It was almost uncomfortable because I she was paying so much attention to you.
You're like, gosh, you're paying more attention to me than I'm paying attention to me. Right. Right. And it was like she was one of the most fruitful missionaries. Not again, she was anything but flashy.
She was just an ordinary North Dakota farm girl, not flashy at all. Again, we almost didn't hire her because she just didn't stick out and we weren't quite so sure if she had what it took. Uh, turns out love is what it takes, and she had that. 

[00:14:51] Dan: Yeah. So that's it.
You know, I was Catholics are worried about evangelization. The smarter they are, the more problematic it is. Yes. The more degrees they have, the harder it is to get through to them to say, What you have to offer isn't your mind, it's your heart, and it's your knowledge of Jesus himself. And, you know, I always wanna tell Catholics, Protestants don't know that much of the Bible.
I memorize 22 scriptures to go door to door, and most Protestants don't know any more than like 15 or 20 scriptures. They don't hear as much of the Bible as Catholics do. We hear it in every Mass. If you go to daily Mass, you know the Bible way better than any Protestant. But none of that matters.
There's a lot of people who affected me. Maybe I could jump ahead to Phyllis to give the example. 

[00:15:39] Jim: Yes. I love Please, let's talk about Phyllis.

[00:15:42] Dan: I came to Christ in a Southern Baptist church, and then I ended up going to work for Doctor James Dobson, who at the time was probably the most influential evangelical in the world along with Billy Graham and, uh, a few others.
Certainly. Yeah. And so, I went to work for him, and I had not worked out a lot of the darkness in my life still. I my nickname, unfortunately, and I'm ashamed of this, at Focus on the Family, was Nuke, which is short for nuclear because I tended to be really sensitive to people who below me in the eye in the, like, managerially below me. But if you were, like, an equal or someone above me and you didn't come prepared for a meeting or I thought your idea was stupid, uh, I was gonna tell you. Why they tolerated me for so long...
this is always kinda baffling, but it's just mercy. So anyway, I'm Nuke at Focus on the Family, very anti Catholic at this point, because the Baptists I hooked up with at first were anti Catholic. It was like their identity was what they were against. We used to call them beginners, you know, because the entire their entire personality and theological framework is not positively asserted, like we as the church do. You know, I believe in God, the father, the almighty, creator.
It's more of like, I'm not one of those people. I don't believe that false doctrine. I don't believe you know? So, and it was all aimed at the Catholic church. So that was my and then coupled with my wounds from my stepdad, who was who was a brutal human being, Catholic, it just was like concrete in my heart.
So, I'm at Focus on the Family, and I meet Phyllis. And Phyllis, funny enough, the video that you saw that where you found me, if you go back and look at that, she has a comment in the top line that's pinned there. We reconnected because that video went viral. 

[00:17:34] Jim: Oh, my goodness. That's so fantastic.

[00:17:37] Dan: Yeah. The Occult to Catholic is the name of it, but it went viral. She watched it, and then we ended up talking on Zoom, and it was funny. So, I said something kind of offensive, and I but she said, no. It was totally true.
Phyllis was a lousy apologist, and I said I apologize for it. And she said, no. No. I was. I'm better now.
You know? But the thing that she did was she told me when she talked to me, she used to tremble when I was coming the same way in the hallway toward her. 

[00:18:03] Jim: I mean, yeah, like, oh here comes Nuke. 

[00:18:06] Dan: Right, Nuke and not Nuke the Catholic, because she was evil. Yeah.
She was a bad person. She was a, you know, worshiped all you know, she venerated, you know, the Whore of Babylon, to use revelation language. So, she was an idol worshiper. So that's how I saw her, and I saw her as a liar and a bad person because she was a Catholic working at a pure, good organization, an evangelical organization, and she had to have lied to get in. Wow.
So that's how I treated her. Now the thing that she did though was... is all she did... well, a couple of things. one, she never ran. She never cowered. She would just say, what?
Would you like to talk about that? You know, if I made some quip like you're a Mary worshiper. You're going to hell, which I would, she would say, would you like to talk about that? You know, you wanna grab lunch or something. 

[00:19:03] Jim: Oh, that's great.

[00:19:05] Dan: Right. So, again, what's the pattern? Mark dealing with porcupine, threatening him, being a jerk to him, you know, and he just hangs in. 

[00:19:17] Jim: Yeah. 

[00:19:17] Dan: Phyllis, the same thing.
I was nicer, but still had all kinds of, you know, prickly things about my personality. And she loved more. It it's hard to talk about. It's very emotional to me. But she loved me more than the pain she had to suffer to deal with me. The affront of the disrespect and that she said she trembled, but she loved me more than her trembling told her.
Stay away from him. Because that's human that's human nature. This guy is harmful because hurt people hurt people, you know, and so, but she loved me more than that, you know? So anyway, we would talk, and I would she never convinced me of anything. I don't remember a word she ever said, except that she eventually was quitting.
And there was this they were throwing this big party for her. She's much beloved. There was, like, 60 people at this going away party, and I was told I had to come. And I said I'm not coming because she's a Catholic, and I'm glad she's leaving. And then so they sent somebody of a higher rank that made me go to the party.
And so, I so I walk in the room, and there are these 5 chairs set up in the front of the room in front of everyone. And I was asked to sit in the first one, and it was a chair that was elevated like a bar stool, so your feet are kind of off the ground on a little bar. 

[00:20:49] Jim: Mhmm. 

[00:20:49] Dan: And she began to I can never tell this. She began to talk about how I had helped her faith, and how I my challenges were really, uh, beautiful and powerful to her, and how I had blessed her.
And then she took off my shoes, and she washed my feet. you know. I was like, what? What is this? Like, you know.
So, I didn't become Catholic the day after. But you can be pretty darn sure that when I'm assessing what it looks like to be a disciple of Jesus, you know, and I look at myself in the mirror and I'm to use biblical language, I'm an ass. Uh, you could just for those offended, just think donkey. Get over it. And this woman and I treated the woman like that, and she washed my feet.
And so, it just opened the door. It just it made me think. And it and, again, it wasn't anything she said, and this is I wanna tell Catholics. What she did, everyone can do. Yeah.
And it doesn't matter if you have a below average IQ. It doesn't matter if you're autistic. I have an autistic son. I mean, I'm not, you know yeah. Just love people.
And love, and then be ready, as scripture says, to give a reason for the hope that lies within you. What that doesn't mean, it doesn't say to be like I was or not to compare myself to Scott Hahn or Scott Hahn or whatever. You know, I needed to go through these, like, super intellectual things. But you know what? I don't share that with anybody.
I've rarely brought those things up in testimony. Why do we have 3500 people in the community of Apostolivia, which I founded, and it's all over the world? Why do we have 220000 subscribers, uh, at spiritualdirection.com? Why is the why are why do my books sell so well? It's because I'm a broken human being and I admit it.
And I'm not afraid to admit it. And I'm an I'm an idiot who needs Jesus. I wanna tell you another story that I love. Uh, it was I went to, uh, get my haircut at a place that I had never been before, and it was a bad you know, I just couldn't I didn't have time, and my… couldn't get in the normal guy. So, I end up at this in this barber chair with a woman with half of her head shaved, which is usually a sign that she plays a part in a role of, like, a lesbian relationship, the way she was dressed and everything.
And so, I thought, well, this is gonna be interesting. And so, she asked me what I did, and I had a lot of different answers. I at that time, I think I was president of EWTN News, but I said I said, well, I'm a writer. And that that means I'm happy to talk because usually people go, oh, that's interesting. What do you write about?
So, I said, well, I write about myth Catholic mystical tradition. And so anyway, we're talking and then she pauses, it's this pregnant pause, and she said, Can I ask you a question? And I knew what she was gonna ask me, I don't know if the Lord revealed it or whatever. I said, You wanna know what I think about you, don't you? Because I had shared with her that I'm a devout Catholic and what I believe Yeah.
And she was shocked. And she said she said, I do wanna know. And I said, can I answer a different question? I think a better question. What do I think about us?
And I said, you and I are broken people who are not gonna make it to heaven without a savior. And that's why Jesus came. All of us are broken. All of us have wounds, and the only solution to reconcile us to the father, to pay the price for our sins, is Jesus Christ. And, you know, there's no argument when you when you're honest, you bear witness as the scripture says to the hope that lies within your hope.
Why do you hope? I hope because I'm an idiot, and I hope I hope because left to my own devices, I'm going to hell. I hope because Jesus really was the Messiah is the Messiah. He really did pay the price for my sins. There's nothing intellectual about anything I just said.
It's just my testimony. And, of course, I can share about my life of total despair. I could share about, you know, not knowing peace and then coming to know peace. That's all that's all experiential and people think, well you have to you have evidence. Sure.
But you know, anyway, uh, that's effective evangelism if you ask me. 

[00:25:39] Jim: Yeah. No. I mean, you're so right. I I've had a similar experience where, you know, part of being a FOCUS missionary is, uh, especially in the early days, there was an intense training in apologetics.
We would literally drill and memorize, and role play and practice. And for the final exam, you had to throw a dart at a dartboard. If you were really good, maybe you could get the Eucharist if you hit the bull's eye. But all of these other difficult apologetics topics, and then you had to go sit with Ted Sree or Curtis Martin and go through this conversation, role playing. And you know what?
I never used it. Now, I'm so glad I was given it because what it did for my understanding and confidence in the faith, but conversations with, you know, non-Catholics, uh, evangelicals, Protestants, whatever, I never got there because it was all about the friendship we developed and the like, Wow, you love Jesus? It was right and it was good. I should say, I'm exaggerating, so I'm like, No, I never used it. But it never led the way.
A friendship. Love always led the way. 

[00:26:50] Dan: Love builds a bridge over which truth can pass. And until I think one of the powerful things about FOCUS, I mean, at least in my experience, I've never been a, you know, a Catholic college student, but I did work with. I've given spiritual direction to focus on missionaries, worked with retreats for them, you know, given formation to them and that sort of thing, but they're all wired to implicate themselves in the lives of other people.
They're all wired to look at somebody and say, there's something neat about you and I wanna know you. And maybe it's the training, right? Or which is great, where the training teaches you how to do that in a structured way, and how to invite, and, Hey, let's have pizza, and let's study scripture. You know, that's all fine and good. But unless somebody looks in your eyes, like that hair woman, she knew.

[00:27:37] Jim: Mhmm. 

[00:27:37] Dan: You know, she knew that I didn't look down on her because I don't. Because we both deserve the same end without Jesus. And people can just tell. So, you know, if you wanna be a great evangelist, love.
Love people and be honest about your own frailty. Be honest about your own brokenness. Be honest. Somebody says, you know, what about this argument? Like, how can you believe in a God that, you know, allows this kind of evil?
It's like, it's okay to say, you know what? That's a good question, and it pains me. And I'm a little disturbed that I don't know the answer, but can we just, like, put a date next week and, you know, on the calendar where we get together for coffee? And I think I know who to ask, and I just like to talk to you about it. And why does it bother you so much?
Yeah. You know? Because there's something in you. My suspicion is something difficult happened to you. Was it… you just watch.
Do you talk like that? You watch the other person melt in front of you, or, you know, start to stir up, and they'll go, woah, you know, this is a little too much, or, yeah, I'd like to talk about it. But it's evangelism isn't me smart, perfect, intellectual, argumented up, armored up, telling you for a sinner going to hell, and aren't I amazing, and aren't you pitiful, and let's get this over with. You know, I just think people think that's evangelism, and I and I it is… it's loving people. 

[00:29:06] Jim: And the irony I mean, this is why I think what you're saying is so important.
The irony is many of the people who are best positioned to be a fruitful evangelist because they're aware of their weakness, they're aware of their inadequacy, they're aware they're not a know it all. They're so well positioned to do it, But if you think it is about how much you know, you won't get started. And they realize they actually have everything they need. 

[00:29:34] Dan: Well, and it's the same thing, you know. I think one of the best ways to evangelize is through a small, um, Bible study, which of course is a focus, uh, mainstay.

[00:29:45] Jim: Yeah. Talk about that. Yeah. 

[00:29:47] Dan: Yeah. Or our community in the possibly VA.
I'm looking at a list right now of small Bible studies. Melbourne, Australia, Sydney, Australia, Birmingham, Alabama, Livermore, oh gosh, Europe, all over the world, all over the United States. Why did I write a book to help people do that? Why do we give free training to people who wanna do that? It's because it gives you a context within which you can invite people into something that would be that if they if God's moving at all in their life, they'll be interested in, where it's really safe.
But the main barrier to people doing that is that they think they have to teach a Bible study. Yes. And you don't you don't have to teach a bible study. All you have to do is facilitate conversation. You read a passage in the gospels, and you say, you know, what stood out to you?
And if you got 6 people, somebody's gonna talk, and then you know how this works. It always works this way. Someone will talk and another person will talk, and then they'll all start talking. And then in the end, all you gotta do is go, well, what are you gonna do about it? That's so good.
You know, not complicated. But loving people, implicating yourself in their lives, helping them move, going to the hospital when they're sick, you know, whatever it is, mowing their lawn when they can't. I don't know what the how you implicate yourself there. Doing their work for them, finishing your work sooner. Yeah.
Saying one day, hey, you look a little distressed, you wanna talk, whatever. But then have a place to invite them to, uh, in a small group where you can build relationship. And then and then usually what happens with small groups is, you know, it ends up that, uh, few people linger afterwards and they have these deeper conversations, or they agree to meet and, you know, somebody wants to become Catholic, or somebody wants to overcome habitual sin, or they wanna get out of this bad relationship or this drug use. 

[00:31:35] Jim: We used to use this this metaphor. Again, you know, encouraging students or new missionaries who are just like, I don't know if I can lead a small group.
It's like the word of God is alive. It's a lion. Just let it out of its cage, and it's gonna do its thing. 

[00:31:50] Dan: We need to, like, build on that. The Bible is not just ink and paper.
It's the words of God. And it's words about God inspired by God himself. And scripture says that it has power. It claims in and of itself to have power. And this is another thing people don't understand.
I'm a melancholic introvert, and I and I would rather be like, my natural disposition is always to find a hole to be alone in. And so, I so some people might think, well, you know, you do all these, you talk all over the world, and you're you have all these books, and you must be an expert. It's like, no. No. All of that's hard for me.
But when you love people, that motivates you, you know, to help. You want you want them to go to heaven. But the other thing about it is you realize if you're if you're not prideful off the chart, I don't wanna claim that I'm humble, but I do have a real strong sense of my own sort of stupidity or whatever, my brokenness. And that is, I have felt horrible. Sick, inarticulate.
I would claim with great certainty that I was inarticulate, and that I did explain things poorly, and it has, and I get a standing ovation for a thousand people at a diocese. You know, Bishop Jenkin made all of his teachers and all of his employees come listen to me talk. And what's so funny about it is, on this on the escalator up, I heard 2 teachers complaining about, what are we doing here? They're cussing and, you know, this is so lame and the fish that takes us come and I'm standing right behind them. You know, and I'm sure that was probably represented, you know, probably close to half of the people in the diocese.
And I was a total buffoon, and it had a huge impact on people. Why does that happen? Because when we are when we love and we step out and we give ourselves to what God asks us to do, which is go into the all the world and make disciples. Right? When we do that, he's with us.
And when we're a buffoon and we say stupid things, he fixes it. His Holy Spirit works. Yes. Now here's some theology that you will not find anywhere codified, but I believe it's true. I actually believe, Jim, that if I say something stupid, and you need to hear something different, but I'm speaking out of a desire to bring you to Christ, he will change or purify what I say as it reaches you to what you need to hear.
Yeah. Because I can't explain any other way of being a buffoon and saying things really poorly and being inarticulate and stuttering, which I you know, uh, and having, uh, a huge effect. 

[00:34:42] Jim: The lord loves it's almost like a modern day, you know, like, what the buffoon version of the gift of tongues, where the lord is like, Okay, maybe I would have said it different, but he gives this gift so that the hearers hear his words. Right. I mean, all of this, Dan, as you're talking, it's so Marian.
And what I mean by that is, any Catholic worth their salt knows, okay, Mary's the best. God used Mary to save the world. But at a natural level, it's not this extraordinary gifting. It's the humble. Right?
God, I mean, you listen to the Magnificat. God opposes the proud, and he gives grace to the humble. And when we know who we are in our brokenness, buffoonness, I love that you keep using that word, then his spirit comes and gives power through our weakness. 

[00:35:36] Dan: Right. And I can tell you when I feel assured and strong and I get up to speak, I worry now Because I'm thinking I'm thinking, where are you, Holy Spirit?
I need to be low. I don't know. Anyway, it always makes me nervous. But we just need to trust the Lord. I mean, he wants everyone to come to salvation.
He desired and he created every single human being, even the most vile that one that you can think of. He created the reason that person exists is for an eternal relationship of love with God. And when you talk about, like, what's the dream team of bringing people to that reality? Well, it's Jesus, the Holy Spirit, you know, the father, guardian angels. Don't worry.
Just be a witness. Right. And you. Yeah. Right.
Well, you know, I'm a walk on, and, you know, the others were drunk when they signed me, you know. Yeah. Well, 

[00:36:33] Jim: but I mean, when I say you, I mean, like, all of us. Right? Where it's like Yeah.
Yeah. I was like, who's the team? It's like, well, we've got Jesus and Mary and Saint Michael and god the father and the holy spirit and Jim. Yeah. Yes.

[00:36:44] Dan: Right. Right. You're a better pick than me. But, yeah. Right.

[00:36:47] Jim: Exactly. It's so good. Well, and I just wanna go back to one thing because it keeps coming back to me in the in the conversation. It's like, I can imagine maybe somebody hearing this is saying, Yeah, but I'm not Dan Burke. There were no seances in my home and there were no, like, abuse and this and that.
And it's like, again, back to Michelle Duppong, Michelle had a great childhood. She had a very ordinary upbringing. No extreme trauma, and although a beautiful family, not like I see the Lord's grace working profoundly in her and her extended family, but they weren't like off the charts crazy uber Catholics either. They just were ordinary folks who loved, And Michelle's love, without some extraordinary trauma or story in her life, her love was just contagious. 

[00:37:44] Dan: Yeah.
And that's really that's really the secret. one of my most recent books is called Devil in the Castle. Subtitle is Saint Teresa of Avila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the soul. But I write about her reflections on the spiritual battles at each stage of the interior life. And a lot of people are surprised when they sit down and really read and study Teresa and get to know her and understand her because what she says is your mystical experiences have nothing to do with your maturity.
Who you are intellectually has nothing to do with how God sees you or loves you. What matters in the end? The only measure in the end is love. The only measure is love. How you love God and how you love others.

[00:38:31] Jim: I mean, I love that, and I know it's true, but that makes me tremble a little bit. Well, sure. I don't know what foolish standard I think I would like to be evaluated on instead of love, but you know, if I'm honest, I'm like, oh. Even when good stuff happens, it's tainted with a lot of self-love. 

[00:38:49] Dan: Sure.
But even that I remember one of my favorite devotions even before I became Catholic was stationed to the cross. Mhmm. I was Anglican before I became Catholic because I needed a little bit of a bridge into the into through the muck of my heart, you know. And I remember praying at my favorite is Liguori's, uh, stations. And there's this portion where he's, you know, I love you, Jesus, my love.
Grant that I might love you always and do with me as you will. And I'm praying that, and I'm going, but I don't. You know, there's a part of me that doesn't. I do want to be a Christian and a Catholic, but I don't. And I and I felt like a hypocrite praying it.
It was like my guardian angel said, you know what? You just need to get over yourself, because you're always gonna be… have mixed motives, and that should never keep you from doing all that you can. And so, god be praised now I can say I do mean it fully when I say it. Now it's 20 years later. Right?
But I do mean it when I say it. But what if I just stopped saying it because I heard your motives aren't pure? Or either self-talk or the enemy himself proposing it to me. You well, your motives aren't poor. You usually do that.
Well, all of our motives are impure. And I would say even though when I pray that prayer, now I feel it fully. I still know my motives are impure. I still care too much about what people think of me, or I still I still want to sound like the smartest guy in the room, or I still want to mention that I wrote 15 books or whatever, you know. And I still those that kind of junk still comes out of my stupid mouth, and then I go, like, who cares?
Like, who are you? You know? But one of the things I love about The Chosen, I'll just I went to the move the movie last night. Yeah. Oh, there we go.
It was awesome. Is it just shows the humanity of Jesus and his disciples. And how they weren't a bunch of people floating around, hugging each other, and you know, they fought, and they argued and it's in the New Testament. You know, James and John were like, I want to sit at your right and left hand, and their mom is, you know, wanting them to be, you know, Peter got named the rock, and or Simon got named Peter the rock, and why weren't they named? And, you know, we see we see shadows of this in the New Testament.
Oh, yeah. It's so true to human nature, which is one of the reasons I actually came to believe the Bible was true because it didn't deify or canonize its followers of God. I mean, David himself Right. Who murdered the Hittite and had a had an affair and took his wife, was also a man after God's own heart. You know, I always thought, that's real.
Because that's I feel, I love God, but I'm a problem too. 

[00:41:41] Jim: Yeah. Well and Peter, like, I love, there's, like, there's no airbrushing. I mean, really, this guy's, like, the first pope, maybe could have interfered in the redacting editing process, and he looks like a buffoon most of the New Testament. I was like, there's, yeah, there's no way that this has got to be an authentic unedited text because if I had the chance, we would have taken some of those passages out.
Right. At least if it was about me. 

[00:42:07] Dan: They did it to Noah. They did it to, uh, uh, Peter. They, you know, the whole Yeah.
The whole revelation. 

[00:42:13] Jim: Abraham. There's yeah. I love it. Dan, I wanna just, like, I wanna pivot just a little bit here.
I wanna give you a chance to talk a little bit about, uh, your work and just what you see on the national and international scene in the church. The Lord has been using you. You've been doing beautiful things. And you just have a perspective. I don't wanna give you a chance to kinda share that with people because it I don't know.
Depending on what news you're watching and how you're paying attention, things can be a little puzzling. 

[00:42:48] Dan: Yeah. So, my it was funny. I used to say this when I was the president of EWTN News. I was over the entire global organization, and I would say, you should turn the news off.
And I would always have my fellow, you know, c level executives look at me a little funny. But they knew what I why I was saying it. And that is, you know, in my position as being the founder of a community, as being the president of a, of an institution that forms priests and religious and laity. We do formal work with 85 dioceses to prepare a guy for seminary. We teach the in-house spirituality program at the Mount Emmitsburg.
And so, we're in the heart of the church. We're teaching. I have to know what's going on in the church. Mhmm. And the reason I have to know is because people trust me, and they wanna know it's just normal.
They wanna know what people they trust think, you know, and people that can give them peace. Mhmm. But I would say if you're not in that kind of position, or you’re working for a diocese similar, you know, being in media and evangelism, you kinda gotta have your pulse on things because you gotta you gotta figure out how to navigate it. And you know you're gonna get questions like about McCarrick or whatever or sexual abuse in the church, that sort of thing. But if you're not in a position of influence like that and you're not a and you're not a person of deep prayer and intercession, you just in my opinion, you shouldn't be you shouldn't partake.
It's a waste of time. Because look, the church, we're in a dark period, it's just a fact. Anyone who tries to skirt that is just not being honest and is trying to hide things, you know. It just is. And that's not the just the opinion that might mean that's the opinion of a huge number of bishops, which recently came against formally, uh, Fiduciary Supplicants.

[00:44:43] Jim: Well, and you can make the case that John Paul the second said the same thing. Yeah. I love the quote where he talks about, you know, I see the dawning of a new evangelization. But when someone says, I can see dawn coming, in this hopeful prophetic call, it means it's night now. Right.
It means it's dark. 

[00:45:03] Dan: And he was, you know, he was very optimistic, which is one of the things I loved about him. Yeah. He foresaw that, you know, he talked about this new springtime of faith, and a lot of us are going, yeah, but the buds came through, and then we got another freeze, and they all died. You know?
And so, what am I supposed to do? And the answer is, like so just to be really personal, like, well, I would never leave the Catholic church. It's the one true faith. It's the church that Jesus established. I'm just not.
I don't care if every bishop, you know, if you think about Athanasius, uh, Contramuntum and the Arian heresy, he was against, I don't know what, 90 plus percent of the bishops in the world. 

[00:45:41] Jim: Well, Saint Thomas More, Bishop John Fisher. Yeah. They're, like, the whole country of England. 

[00:45:46] Dan: Right. 

[00:45:46] Jim: Is gone.

[00:45:47] Dan: Right. I don't care how many laypeople are in you know, don't live out their faith and are inconsistent. I don't... none of that matters to me. What matters to me is, is this the true church? Is Jesus who we claim to be?
When Jesus said, unless you eat my flesh in John 6 and drink my blood you have no life in you, is that true or not? And where do I get that? I it's in the priesthood of the Catholic church. It's all true, and I and I give myself fully to it. But I also reject that the ape of the church is the church, this this phrase that, uh, Fulton Sheen used, of there are people in the church who are more or less on the lesser culpability side, who are just confused or deceived or morally catechized.
Then there's deceivers and predators who are like McCarrick and others, who are in the laity and in the hierarchy both. Those aren't the real church. You know, Judas wasn't a true representation of an apostle or disciple in my opinion. Judas was a type. Judas was necessary to teach us, unfortunately.
Um, but nonetheless, I, you know, he's still created for an eternal relationship with God, and he chose, you know, contrary. I did the Camino this last year and I came up upon this Australian guy who was doing the doing the Camino because he lost his wife and they're both, you know, young, and he's just trying to figure out who he is without his wife, you know. And I found out he was a fallen away Catholic. And I found out that he was really involved in the church, like a lot of, in quotes, good Catholics are. And he and somebody got sideways with him and didn't, you know I said, can I have permission to offend you?
He said, yes. But you won't offend me. I said, why would you let Judas drive you away from Jesus? Wow. Why?
Because no matter whether they're truly Judas or not, he feels like he was betrayed and he was, you know, hard. It really mattered. It's his heart. You know? So, I would just say, you know, I'll say this last thing.
I met with a bishop whom, if I named him, the radio waves might shed, or I don't know. But before he was, you know, taken out, I he asked me, and this is when I was president of the BWT news. He asked me, is it as bad as it seems? And I said, Bishop, it's so much worse. I said, uh, there are so many things I can't even report because of our journalistic standards, but I that I know are true.
But I said it doesn't matter, does it? He's like no, it doesn't. We know that we are the light of the world. We know that Jesus is who he said he's We know that he is the that he is the balm of Gilead. We know that he's the one that sets the captives free.
We know that we can have peace in the midst of the storm. But with him so that's what we focus on, is daily loving and emulating him and giving our hearts over to him, bringing as many people to do that. Living that life is a life of peace and joy. Amen. Living a life concerned about things we can't control, that's the devil's game.
That's how he wrecks devout souls, gets you wrapped up in stuff you can't control. You work in a diocese. When people first go to work for a diocese, like, oh, I get to work for the diocese. And then, you know, a few years later, they're like, yeah, he was a happy soul. I don't know why he died so young.
But you just you come to realize really quickly, I have control over this little space, and it's actually it's the width of my piney, and you know, and that's it. And there are other good people like that in dioceses too. The way that you get wrecked working in a diocese is, when you try to accomplish things that God has not given you to accomplish. Amen. What has he given you to accomplish?
Whatever the bishop says your parameters are. Whatever it is you're called to do as a Catholic. Do that, and you will change the world. Michelle Dupont, that's all she did. Yeah.
I never heard in her some kind of grand vision of conquering the world for Jesus or anything. She just did what she could do, which is loving people in a very intense, beautiful way. And because she loved the Lord, he changed her in that way, made her whole. And because she knew him, she changed the world around her. And it's inevitable.
Lent's coming up. Like, do you have do you struggle with habitual mortal sin? Well, let's how about this year, let's you become less a disciple of Satan and a true disciple of the one you claim you are. Yeah. Let's get this behind us.
Or if you're past that, let's what about the virtue that you know you need to exhibit for your kids and your spouse, or for the church, or for your job? You know, let's focus on those things, and the world will change and get healthier. I love it. 

[00:50:42] Jim: Yeah. Let's make it the year.
Dan, our time has just flown by. I just wanna give you one last and maybe if I can, if I can if you can shift into spiritual director mode, I just want to give you a chance to speak to those who are like, and, like, they want it. They've heard a call in our conversation today. They wanna love people to Christ. They wanna love people into the church.
And they're just kinda standing at the precipice, and they're a little scared. They're a little intimidated. What do you wanna say to them? 

[00:51:13] Dan: I wanna say that, you know, Jesus said, come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. He said, my peace I leave you.
My peace I give you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. He said through the holy spirit to Saint Paul, have no anxiety about anything. If you wanna live a life that transcends all the junk, if you wanna live and experience what the apostles experienced, which is the ability to have everything stripped from you, including the skin off of your own back, and to rejoice in the face of it, and to know peace, to have your cart connected to eternity in heaven, you gotta run. You gotta run with him.
You gotta go. You can't steer a parked car. And if you're not moving, god's not steering. Get moving. Get off your stupid rear end.
And, you know, the other thing about it is, you know, the church, of course, recognizes all kinds of motivation because in the traditional act of contrition, it says, you know, because I fear the loss of heaven and the pains of hell. Well, meditate on hell, Because people who are lukewarm you know, Jesus said, I'm gonna spit you out of my mouth. Like, alright, Lord. Make me fervent. And if you don't have a fervent heart and you want one, ask him for one.
He always answers that prayer. But then you better run too. You still gotta get on the treadmill. Just, you know, he'll give you a treadmill. Just get on it and run.
It's a beautiful life. For me, it was a bullet or a reason. A casket or a reason. And it's all true, and it's all worth living for, and nothing else is. 

[00:52:57] Jim: Yeah.
Dan, thank you. I found our conversation inspiring and moving and convicting. So, thank you. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for Let the Lord bring that person to mind.
Maybe it's been a while. Maybe you need to, like, call and say hello first, but share this with them. Send it their way and let it be a gift. God bless. Thanks for listening to the equip cast.
We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to Equip.Archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.