[00:00:00] Jim: Hey, everybody. I have some fun getting on the other side of the microphone today. I sit down with Ron Huntley, and Ron interviews me for his podcast, the Ron Huntley Leadership Podcast. Uh, Ron is an international coach and leadership expert in parish renewal. He coaches bishops and priests and ministry leaders all over the world.
Uh, he had me on his podcast, and we sit down and talk about my book, A Clear Path of Discipleship, How to Make Missionary Disciples in the Parish. It's a lot of fun and a treat for me to be the 1 on the other side of the microphone. I think you'll enjoy today's conversation. Take a listen. 
Everyone is called to mission. Uh, the universal call to holiness and the universal call to mission are inseparable. And it looks different for people, right, depending on your charism, depending on your state in life. But the Lord made everyone in some way, shape, or form to be missionary and to evangelize. And that's what good evangelization formation that's what that does. And so, in a parish, it could look like a terrorism assessment, like called and gifted out of the Catherine of Siena Institute.
It's probably some very simple skill training in prayer and intercession, How to share your story, how to share the gospel in a conversational way, maybe how to facilitate a small group. Just a handful of things. You know, It doesn't have to be rocket science. It's not a master's degree. It's just a very practical equipping for people wherever they're at in their their state in life to be able to share their Faith in their ordinary coming and going.

[00:01:35] Ron: Welcome to the Huntley Leadership Podcast, helping leaders be a positive Catalyst in the people they support, the organizations they serve, and the communities they live. This podcast will make you think, laugh, and grit your teeth With new determination to make your parish or business a place of transformation, passion, and purpose. If you're still breathing, you are powered for impact. Hello, and welcome to the Ron Huntley Leadership Podcast. It's great to have you back.
If this is your first time accessing the podcast, welcome. We talk about issues that surround leadership, particularly leadership in the Roman Catholic church. It's not easy. The reason I spend and dedicate my life to this pursuit is because I believe people were made great. And I think The best way for people to access greatness is through Jesus and the local parish.
And so, making sure that parishes work Matters. My guest today wrote a book called A Clear Path, How to Make Missionary Disciples in Your Parish. Please give a nice warm welcome For Jim Jansen. Jim, welcome to the show. 

[00:02:44] Jim: Thanks, Ron.
Good to be with you. Okay. 

[00:02:46] Ron: We're gonna jump into a lot of things, but I wanna start by asking you, What do you hope people get from reading this book? 

[00:02:54] Jim: Oh, that's awesome. I love that.
Uh, you know, I mean, just short and sweet, I hope they get a plan, like, a real workable plan to make immature disciples in their parish. And maybe as a bonus, They get a team of people who get it and who are ready to do it with them. 

[00:03:14] Ron: Well, when you say that, like, if we just do church well, Isn't that the automatic fruit is to make missionary disciples in your local parish? 

[00:03:22] Jim: Uh, well, when you say yeah. I mean, Yes.
That's the when you say Drew Churchwell, a lot of people, you know, mean different things when they say that. But, you know, you and I and I think in, you know, the mind of the church in in the Lord, the mission is to make disciples, uh, to make disciples of all nations. And and our our our our churches are just kinda Local missionary outposts, um, that have a a sphere of influence, a neighborhood, a mission field, all their own. 

[00:03:51] Ron: Amen. Amen.
So so, If I'm listening to this and I'm just setting up the conversation because, you know, I know there's a lot of people that you know, Good people. Like, good Catholic faithful people who go to church and say, you know, the problem is just people stop going to church. Like, they just gotta get their butts back to church. 

[00:04:12] Jim: Yep. Somebody tell them.
"Get your butt back to church".

[00:04:15] Ron: Right. How's it working for your kids? Right. But And so there's just not a sense of what do you mean? Like, what what's at the heart of what we might not be Getting Right or or tell me a little bit about that. 
Again, the the clear path of making missionary disciples, like, What's the problem? What are we up against that that's not happen?

[00:04:40] Jim: Well, I mean, part of it is, you know, We as a church are in, I think, a season where we are rediscovering our missionary identity. And I would say that particularly for those of us in the west, Um, I don't know how many listeners you have in the underground church in China, uh, but they're like I don't you know, they're like they are firmly in the heart of their their missionary identity. Uh, but for many of us in the west, United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, we're we're kinda rediscovering that. And And I would say, you know, where I'm from, I'm here in Omaha, Nebraska. Uh, the biggest pastoral problem that we had, You know, for the first couple centuries of the church here is we had all of these immigrants, Irish, Czech, German, Polish, and they came With faith flooding, uh, you know, a a continent and, in this case, my state, Nebraska.
And there the church wasn't here. So, the biggest pastoral problem was how do we provide the sacraments for these people who want it. And so, we developed a very strong emphasis on pastoral care, and we didn't we didn't develop our missionary muscles. Um, and now we're in a place where people aren't just coming because of their ethnicity anymore. And we're we're now having to rediscover, like, what does it actually mean to make disciples?
And, you know, the church has been talking about that in earnest for the last, I mean, mean, you could say 30, 50 years, but I think there's been a a gap. I'm hoping this book kinda fills in. They're very practical. Yeah. But what does that That actually mean Yes.
In a parish Tuesday morning. Like, what does that mean for me if I'm the youth minister, if I'm the pastor, The adult evangelization coordinator on staff. Like, what does that mean Tuesday morning? And so, what I try and do in the book is lay out listen. There's this Process of conversion that the church has laid out that people go through.
Uh, you can call it the catechumenal model. There's lots of different kinda, you know, names for it. There's process. And if we can create a a ministry context for people, some of these major steps in the journey. If we can create a context where the missionary disciples we have can reach out to people and and help draw them in in friendship, Help introduce them to the Lord, help them mature, and and finally equip them as missionary disciples.
If we have a context there, We can make and mature disciples far more effectively than we're doing now.

[00:07:16] Ron: Yeah. And and what I'm hearing you say as you say that is Is we need we we have an opportunity to be more intentional than ever. And if we have a similar language for it and if we're collaborating and working together and understand where all what this process is, Then we can work together. We can understand where we're at in that, where our ministries are, how it participates in that, and how we can work together because I I my sense is it doesn't happen by accident anymore.
Like, the idea of going through go to a Catholic school, get your sacraments, you're a missionary disciple, that That's doesn't that's just like we know that doesn't work. Right? 

[00:07:52] Jim: Right. No. It it doesn't.
And and I'll even raise you 1. You know, my background, Uh, is as a missionary. I worked with FOCUS, the Fellowship of Catholic University Students for almost 20 years, and That's what I did day in and day out. I made disciples, and then I equipped other people to make disciples. And what's interesting part of, I Think what what drove this book was this, um, if I can be honest, slightly horrifying revelation that People who were rock star missionaries on campus, they would go anywhere, do anywhere the Lord took them.
They would talk to anybody, And they were heavy hitters. I mean, they would, like, walk up to an atheist on campus. And before long, like, the spirits moving and this person's like, I don't know. Maybe I will come back to church. I mean, just amazing stuff.
Yeah. And and they and they land in their parish, And god bless them. They're raising their kids Catholic, which is, you know, no small feat these days. And they're on the pastoral council, and they're singing in the choir. But they weren't evangelizing anymore.
And as I talked to them and kinda heard their stories, what I realized is, like, they're like, I don't have the context I need. Like, they're like and they were still doing it, right, you know, with their and and occasionally with neighbors and coworkers, but it wasn't nearly as fruitful as it could have been because the parish wasn't structured to help them. And I I think you can say it this way. Like, a missionary disciple, a true missionary disciple is just going to bear fruit wherever they're at. The question is how much fruit are they gonna bear?
And, you know, vines bear fruit if you just kinda let them go wild, but they really bear fruit If you give him a trellis. And and that's what a clear path is. It's a framework. It's a trellis so that the missionary disciples you have can bear more fruit. 

[00:09:48] Ron: Amen.
Amen. And I can't help but think that's going to take yes. The trellis so so How much of that trellis is the clear path? How much of that trellis is understanding leadership in the context of parishes and how, like you know what I mean?

[00:10:05] Jim: I mean, I think they're I think they're inseparable.
I would say, you know, my team and I here in the Archdiocese of Omaha, We've been working with parish leaders. Many of them have been working at this. Right? They've been approaching, uh, their parish renewal, say, like, okay. We we gotta figure out how to make disciples, and and we got a plan.
You know, we we got a a clear path. We're gonna lay this thing out, Um, and we're gonna meet people at every stage of the journey and help them take their next step. What what we've noticed, though, is that Those who are maybe, I don't know, more naturally, uh, stereotypically a leader, they begin I love the way John Maxwell talks about this. They just have a leadership bias. Their first thought is about leadership.
Their first thought is about putting together a team, and that's fantastic. That's not necessarily where everybody's at in terms of I would say, like, you know, there's a there's a call that I would say Every pastor, every parish has to make disciples, but not all of them are kinda built in that maybe more stereotypical leadership mode. And what we found is those who are who have that kind of leadership instinct, they they make great progress very quickly because they're like, oh, okay. I need to Find a team and I need to be a leader, so that means I need to have a vision. Okay, Lord.
What do you want me to do? And they're just kinda intuitively running into that. What we notice is kinda like the next wave of the more kinda everyday, uh, folks. Their first thought isn't about leadership. Their first thought is about People.
How how do I keep my people from getting lost? That their heart you know, they're maybe in terms of, like, a kind of a charism. They're they're shepherds at heart, and and they don't wanna see peep anybody get lost. Their heart aches for those who have drifted away. For them, it seems like their first step is, okay.
Give me a plan to to get them back. Give me a plan to make Disciples to mature the disciples I have to equip people. Mhmm. And and pretty quickly, they start with a plan, and they're like, oh, And now I need a team because this is a lot, and I can't do it by myself. And okay.
Yeah. And and they they get the same place, But I think depending on temperament, it starts the the journey starts differently. 

[00:12:22] Ron: That's well said. And, you know, 1 of the things and we'll break it down tomorrow. But 1 of the things I loved about your book is that, you know, I noticed, you know, Father James Mallon has endorsed it on the back.
And And, you know, I think to myself, I wish we had this book when we're at Saint Benedict Parish because we did develop a clear path. But Yeah. We didn't know how, and we fumbled around it. And we were 4 years in before we were looking in that rearview mirror to to say, in this Holy chaos that we've created. Mhmm.
Where's the where's the gold? Like, like, we have to Sort through a bunch of stuff to try to find out what's working because clearly something stuff is working in the midst of chaos. And I think your book would have been so helpful for us. 

[00:13:10] Jim: You know, Ron, thank you for saying that because, I mean, you're I mean, you're the real deal. You guys did it.
You guys are leading the way. I mean, you developed a language and a a trail for other people to follow. In many ways, As I was writing the book, I was I felt a little bit like a reporter, um, which is funny because my wife is a professional journalist, and she's like, honey, you are so not reporter. So, it's like, to to to be clear, it is not written in a journalistic style. But but as I was writing it, I kept reflecting on The stories of the parishes that I had seen and worked with that did it, that saw fruit and success.
And some of those are, you know, folks that that you've been associated with, folks that have worked with the divine renovation network, folks, you know, that we work with here in Omaha, Other parishes from my missionary days, and I was just kinda constantly going back and kinda mining the universals from the people who had figured it out And and seeing if I could assemble that in a kinda logical systematic way. Because not all not everybody has the the patience that you and Father Mellon had So just figure it out in the midst of the chaos. 

[00:14:21] Ron: No. That's true. And to keep pushing forward through struggles and push back and mistakes because I'll tell you, if we made 1, we made a million.
And, uh, just not giving up because at the heart of it for us was this belief that Jesus is alive and the Holy Spirit has been sent, And he wants us to win. Win what? Win souls for Christ. Make people great. Like, we just fundamentally believe that.
So, Despite all our mistakes, despite what we didn't know, um, we just thought, no. We're just gonna keep on getting out because we believe that we should be walking in miracles. And and so that could be messy. And so, we're okay with the messiness, maybe sometimes a little more okay than other people wished we were. Uh, actually.

[00:15:07] Jim: You know, I think that heart I mean, I like to think that that heart that, like, I just wanna help people encounter Jesus. I just I like, I wanna save souls. I wanna change lives. I think I'd like to think that that's in All of us, anybody who's kinda in ministry, particularly at a parish level, the the problem is, man, if you can't See any reasonable route from where I'm at today, and it's a mess and we're not changing lives, Um, and to to to like that dream, if you can't see a reasonable route to get there, you're like, Uh, I can't let myself keep that dream because it's too painful. And I think some people let the dream go because they don't have a they don't see how to get there.
And not that it fixes everything, but I think the the book is like, hey. This is a this is a plan to get there. Kind of a step by step. It'll walk you through. Um, at the very least, it'll keep you keep you dreaming, Uh, so you can keep the the dream and the conversation alive and figure out what it looks like in your in your parish.

[00:16:08] Ron: Give give some of our listeners some of the practicals about Getting from a good intent, good heart, a faithful Catholic, and fill you know, parish filled with people like that to a place where you get a clear path. What's Just describe some of the steps. 

[00:16:23] Jim: Yeah. Well, I mean, the first again, I I I talked about this, but the first kinda You know, I divide the book in 3 parts. The first part is just like, hey.
This is this is what a clear path is. There's this process of Conversion and growth and discipleship that the church has laid out. And if we're aware of that and if we can design ministry context To meet people at key spots along the journey, it's we can be far more effective in helping people grow and mature. We can provide those next Steps for people. So that's, like, that's the first part of it, just becoming aware of the process.
Honestly, in in some ways, it's intuitive for those I think about Pastors and kind of veteran church leaders who've who've been in the lives of, uh, their people. What it does is I I provide a a framework. I kinda take the church's language and just offer just a real simple, Uh, everyday language articulation of this process of conversion when when someone becomes a disciple, and then, Right. Of discipleship as someone grows in maturity to become a missionary disciple. I just try to take that and and turn it into everyday language Mhmm.
And give people some tools or some, you know, tools and games on the website just so that you can establish a common language. Because half the battle is when we say the word evangelization, people think different things. Some people think hospitality. Some people think, Uh, just solid catechesis. Some people begin to think kinda devotional, liturgical.
Some Few very rare birds start to think about a clear explicit proclamation of the gospel. Some maybe a small number think about, okay, that means equipping missionaries and and people for mission in their everyday life. The truth is evangelization is all of it. And what what I try and provide is a framework for people to recognize What people need at every stage of the journey. 

[00:18:21] Ron: Beautiful.
That's so beautiful. I'm hearing you say, you know, become, grow, and go. Right? Like, Yeah. I'm gonna say, grow in your discipleship and go make more disciples.
It's like Yahoo. 

[00:18:32] Jim: Yeah. I mean, so we introduced this idea that that It's there's not a magic formula. I would suggest that there's 4 kind of main steps that if you wanna meet people through their right through their spiritual journey, Uh, at the very beginning, people who are far away from the Lord, not associated with the church, you need some sort of relational outreach. And by that, I mean, Do you need people who can develop friendships with those who are not members of your church, who don't necessarily how regardless of what what their upbringing might be, who don't have a relationship, a living relationship with the Lord, any people who can kinda meet them And develop those relationships and and go to them, not just you know, it's it's far more than just being nice when they come to us.
It is an actual going out to them. So, we call it relational outreach. That should be leading towards what I call a conversion moment. Um, some people use Alpha, Christ Life. There are local retreats movements, a a well-designed, uh, parish Lenten mission could do this.
Maybe it's an in-house retreat. What whatever it is, there has to be a place where you preach the gospel, you invite people to encounter the Lord, and you You invite people to to convert their lives. Um, that that is irreplaceable. That is 1 of the things that, You know, I I love that I was personally very convicted of this in my early years as a missionary. You know, John Paul the second talked about the proclamation of the gospel being kind of the hinge on which all evangelization turns.
Uh, that's where that happens. It's called a conversion moment. But from there, people need to grow and mature. Uh, I call this faith formation, which is interestingly enough, that's the thing that most parishes, if they're doing anything, they're doing faith formation. Right.
They've got a form dot org subscription. They've got a class. They've got something where they're like they're they wanna help feed people. Yeah. And And it's fantastic.
The problem is if nobody's experiencing conversion and nobody's connecting relationally, pretty soon you run out of that pool. And if anybody's coming to your, you know, to your Tuesday night class, it's the same 10 people Yeah. Coming. Uh, so that faith formation is essential, but there's some things that precede it. And there's also something that follows it.
Um, everyone, right, Everyone is called to mission. Uh, the universal call to holiness and the universal call to mission are inseparable. Um, and it looks different for people, right, depending on your charism, depending on your state in life. Um, but The Lord made everyone in some way, shape, or form to be a missionary and to evangelize. And that's what good evangelization formation, that's the fourth step.
That's what that does. And so, in a parish, it could look like Charism assessment, like, called and gifted out of the Catherine of Siena Institute. It's probably some very simple skill training In prayer and intercession, how to share your story, how to share the gospel in a conversational way, maybe how to facilitate a small group, Just a handful of things. Um, you know, it doesn't have to rocket science. It's not a master's degree.
It's just a very practical equipping for people Wherever they're at in their their state in life to be able to share their faith in their ordinary coming and going. 

[00:22:00] Ron: He said it's not a master's degree, which makes me smile because there's plenty of very well-educated people who don't bring anybody to Jesus. So, it's not an academic exercise. It's an exercise that challenges your courage and your obedience and your willingness to surrender to Christ, I said, you do not need any academic formation to to go to that place where God can make you useful. Does academic help?
Possibly, but not necessarily. 

[00:22:29] Jim: Yeah. There's that great line in Evangelii Gaudium where pope Francis talks about how lengthy Training is not needed, uh, for people to go with this. And, like, that that's kinda challenging for those of us who are like, I'm a I'm a lengthy trainer. Like, I'm a teacher.
I I I went through I went through lengthy training. Uh, but when you really get into it, He's not diminishing the value of of study or of, you know, a a deep, You know, knowledge of the faith. What he's saying is every beggar can tell the other beggars where the bread is. 

[00:23:05] Ron: Amen. Amen.
It's so true. And when I look from a practical perspective, uh, I'll never forget this 1 lady at our Sure. And this is the honest to God truth. This sounds so fake. The numbers are don't make any sense.
Like, if I can think about the amount of people I've brought to Jesus, and a lot of people think, you know, it's a director former director of evangelization, all this stuff. It's not very many. Like, I I wish it was more. Like, it it really isn't that many. This 1 lady, very faithful Catholic, never talked about Jesus in her life, never went to a single Bible study or anything.
Never gave an hour of her time her entire life at Saint Benedict Parish decided to come to Alpha. First time she ever did anything like that And thought about quitting a couple times but toughed it out. Finish to change her life. She literally brought 100 people to alpha in the next 12 months. And I'm I think, and she is the most softest spoken, gentle, loving lady.
And I was like, oh my gosh. I lose my job if you keep doing this. Like, you're way better. 

[00:24:14] Jim: Yeah. I love it.
Exciting. No. I love that. You know? Yeah.
I mean, I think the Lord loves to do that. I mean, I used to enjoy that in, you know, in my missionary days. You know? And I worked as a professional missionary, And, you know, as part of kind of the recruiting screening process, and every now and then, the Lord would love to just say, like, Watch this. And the most unlikely candidate would prove to be the most fruitful.
And when you really got into it, it's like, why is it Why are they so effective? It's like, well, they love people. They they trust Jesus. They step out in courage when he tells them to go talk to someone. Yeah.
You know, it's not rocket science. Um, I mean, the skills matter knowing how to start a conversation, You know, being able to be in a place where you can really listen and and and ask a good follow-up question. Those those skills, You know, sharing your testimony, all those things do really matter, but they don't matter more than love. Uh, you know, and and they don't matter more than courage. 

[00:25:18] Ron: No.
Amen. That conviction. Right? That and just with Jesus changes your life. You know, what what I find hard is when, you Pastor sometimes will say, you know, you gotta go and tell people you gotta share your faith.
Well, it's like people may have faith, but they don't. Some people don't feel like their life has been changed. And so, it's like Yeah. You should have faith. Why?
Well, because my mom said you should. Like, it's like that. 

[00:25:47] Jim: Right. Like, thanks? No.
And there's a very different yeah. There's a very different if if somebody's not sharing their faith because they they feel like they don't know how or they feel like they have nothing to say, those are 2 different Those are 2 different issues. 

[00:26:02] Ron: Yep. It's true. And you can be faithful and feel like you don't have anything to say Versus don't know how because sometimes Yeah.
People, when their life is transformed by Jesus and they're filled with the Holy Spirit, Uh, they feel very compelled, but they might not have the skills. And that's a different that's a different thing. 

[00:26:20] Jim: Yeah. Well and that's part of what a what a clear path Helps with Yes. In that those who've recognized, like, gosh, I've gotta be equipping people for personal mission.
It's like, okay. Great. But let's not put the cart ahead of the horse. Let's first provide a life changing encounter. What whether there's fireworks or not, you know, it's like, just because you you haven't done hard drugs or hard time Does not mean the Lord has not changed your life.
Um, you know, uh, so it's like, uh, it's not about having a dramatic or traumatic story. It's about Jesus saved my life. And and from there, what actually, now you have something to share. And let's talk about how you effectively share that. And part of what a clear path does is it helps you recognize The the process that people are going through and create a space so that people can appropriately grow and mature.
Because sometimes People can't figure out very intuitively because our parishes are just amazed. Particularly, this is this is hard for, like I'm gonna say this like a vibrant or an active or a whatever picked, you know, kind of like a suburban parish where there's so much stuff. All good stuff. People can't sort through the the the stuff to figure out what's my next step. How do I actually grow and mature?
Mhmm. Yeah. That makes sense. We offer becomes an obstacle. 

[00:27:49] Ron: True.
Because it's not there there's no continuum. There's no If things aren't linked, there's no it's not going from 1 thing to the next. 

[00:27:58] Jim: Yeah. There's no path. 

[00:28:00] Ron: There's no path. 

[00:28:02] Jim: Yeah. It it I mean, honestly, Ron, this is the hardest part for for most people. So, in that, Yeah. A clear path.
It's like, okay. It's a path, but it's the clear part that's hard. Because what that means is that we're gonna highlight some ministries and not others. Not not every not every ministry is gonna get equal airtime. And I don't mean to to pick on that, but let's just assume, like, you know, the The knitting club and the conversion moment like alpha, those don't get equal airtime.
Mhmm. Be because even though every ministry Could could be like an on ramp and could find a place in a healthy community. Not every ministry is gonna make up a clear path. In fact, the Clear Path is probably just gonna be a handful of ministries that are very strategically built, Connected and highlighted to help people grow and mature. 

[00:28:59] Ron: Love that.
So, what are you so if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm In a ministry that I'm passionate, it may have started or taken over from somebody else, but it's not in that pathway. What advice would you have for me? 

[00:29:12] Jim: Oh, that's a great well, I mean, there's 2 things. 1, like, I just wanna say, like, it's true. The the the challenge of how important clarity is how important simplicity is.
There there's some research that, uh, Travis Bradshaw did. Um, he Did his doctoral work at the University of Notre Dame, and he studies all of these churches. And what he finds is the less programming they have, The more growth they have. And and I'll say that again because those of you who are listening, you're like, you know, I don't want anybody to drive off the road or they're like, Why? Because because I know you don't believe it, but it's true.
Regardless of their size, there is an inverse relationship to the amount of programming you have and how much your church grows. And and it's it's counterintuitive, but when you really get into it, you're We all have the same experience. You know? Like, you go to those kind of, like, smelly lotions, smelly candle shops, and, like, you take, like, Get, like, 2 or 3 whiffs, and you're like, ah, I'm just overwhelmed, and you walk away. Uh, and literally, like, those stories have figured out, like, yeah, we we can't put, you know, 24 choices out front.
We need just a handful because we we overwhelm people, and they walk away. And and un unknowingly, many of our churches do the same thing That that we overwhelm people with choices, and there isn't a clear pathway. They don't know where they start. They don't know where they end. Uh, and that's that's part of what a clear path does.
It's hard, but knowing that it's true, that it is like a kind of an empirical research-based thing, That that clarity and simplicity matters, that helps as you enter into the difficulty of saying, like, okay. Well, where does Where does our ministry fit in? Or if you're a pastor or a parish leader, just say, like, okay. How do we or How how are we gonna wade through the difficulty of these this discernment to figure out which ministries we're highlighting and how how you know, what kind what our path looks like. So that's the first part.
It's just you just gotta know that it's true. Okay. And then second, um, a clear path of discipleship is really just again, it's just the The church's process for making disciples. You know? So, it'd be the catechumenal process.
And, honestly, every ministry In some ways, it should have that built in. And what I mean by that is I would say, like, uh, youth ministry. Youth ministry is sometimes that we would think of it as a Singular ministry, but when you really get into it, a youth ministry is kind of a series of moments or events. Right? There's like the The hangout barbecues where where where students can bring their peers to just come and check it out.
And then there's Hopefully, this moment where they go to a conference or something where people have a a profound encounter with the Lord, and then there's usually some regular They're often Wednesday night. Hopefully, small group-based thing where people can can learn the the young people can learn, like, habits and and the knowledge and and what does it mean to actually live as as a disciple. And then god willing, there's a place where they're equipped for mission to their peers. I mean, real real youth ministry doesn't just keep kids safe. It actually makes them dangerous.
Oh. Right? It actually sends them out to their peers. Any anyway, in some ways, almost any ministry can do this. It's just kinda following the church's Timeless wisdom.
And so in a parish context, we would like to say that there's a main clear path for adults, but there's some Some, uh, ministries like youth ministry or religious education that mirror that path and intersect at key moments so So that we can actually keep families together and not be another thing that that tears them apart. 

[00:33:00] Ron: That's so beautiful. We used to do that too. We had a game plan specifically for the youth, which talks about the very things that you said. And I often think because when I work with different ministries, I'm trying to help them develop A pathway within their ministry.
So, if you're a lector, you know, oftentimes okay. If you're if you head up the lectors, what's your What's your dream? Well, that there's no oftentimes, there's no empty spots. Everybody shows up, and they do a good job. It's like, yeah.
Oh, okay. What if everybody loves scripture? What if that was your goal? What if your goal is that your parish loves scripture more than any other church in your diocese, and you lectures led the way by helping the people in your ministry fall in love with scripture. Therefore, fall in love with Jesus And find 1 or 2 times a year that you take that passion and love for scripture and invite people into it.
What about that? Like, 
that's Yeah. You know? 
It's like yeah. Same thing with the Eucharist.
Like, there's just but but sometimes our vision is so small, but develop a clear That's way for your ministry to have ginormous impact in your parish and just compare yourself to all the other churches in the diocese and just decide to be number 1. Yeah. Like, why not? 

[00:34:16] Jim: That's awesome. I love it.

[00:34:18] Ron: So, I'm just good. So so, Jim, why don't you share with us a little bit because you work at the Chancery. Tell us a little bit about your role, How you work with your team and maybe some success stories in terms of the people you work with because you've written this book while you're in your role, which is all Right. 

[00:34:32] Jim: Yeah. Yeah.
So, uh, early mornings and Saturdays, uh, were yeah. This is a labor of love. So, there's a, yeah, there's a there's a long list of of home projects That that I that I need to I need to get to now that have been... 

[00:34:45] Ron: there's any carpenters listening that live by you. They could go talk to you. Yeah.

[00:34:49] Jim: Yeah. I got a I got a good punch list. So, uh, my team and I, um, we're we're part of the we we're called the parish support team. Uh, there's 6 of us, uh, coaches, And we all have a kind of like a a ministry specialty based off our background. So, marriage prep, youth ministry, religious education, RCIA, um, all of our kind of Spanish language support, all of us have the, you know, a specialty.
And what really our archbishop has Has asked is he's he's like, we we we want all of our parishes to become a missional community. And that means collaborative leadership and a culture of generosity and a clear path of discipleship. So, we've been kinda thinking and working in this concept that, like, part of a parish kinda rediscovering his missionary identity Means having a plan to make and mature disciples, right, or a framework. Uh, so we've been we've been at this for a while, and It's been really, really fun because, again, we've studied, you know, folks around the the country and Even, you know, even the world, I was just reminded yesterday hanging out with a friend that Canada is another country. Um, right?
So, like, we've we've looked at those things, But we've been blessed to have about a dozen parishes here in our own archdiocese that are that are really pursuing the like, Developing a clear path of discipleship, and it's working. Like, they're seeing fruit. So, 1 of them, uh, 1 of my favorites, they were kind of the early 1 of our early kind of leaders on this, uh, Saint Francis Cabrini Parish, uh, Father Damien Zuerlein is there. Uh, god bless him. He's like when he first got there, he he was like, Archbishop, why did did I do something wrong?
Because it was, he's like, this parish should be closed. Like, there's no 1 here. And he said, like, literally, he was The pastor, the secretary, the maintenance guy, like, that was it. There was nothing there. It it was a Kinda inner city, urban parish, um, originally kind of, you know, Italian immigrants.
Well, they, you know, they had moved out kind of generations ago, and there's Legacy. I mean, you know, we're still the sons of Italy are still there, and we're still, like, we've had the spaghetti feed, but it people weren't coming to mass anymore. And they began to slowly gather together as a team. You you got a team around him, and they began to build A Clear Path of Discipleship. Now at the time, they didn't have the language.
They're just kind of similar to kinda like your work at Saint Benedict's. They just kind of were intuiting their way to it. They're like, We need some place where people encounter Jesus, and we we need something for them after that. We need to help them grow and mature. And so, they They use alpha for their conversion moment.
They use in home small groups. Uh, they use these very, very cool Parties and outreach events to, like, connect with the because the the neighborhood turned over from being Italian immigrants, uh, to now being a very hip, Cool. Millennial center. And I tell you, when you go visit this parish, it is amazing. Beautiful young people, families who are there.
It's vibrant. It's overflowing. And all of the numbers, like mass attendance, giving, weddings, baptisms, all of it, like, poof, They bounced. Mhmm. And and and it's you can see the v.
You can see the effect of their labors, and it's really, really hopeful. So that's 1 of my favorite stories. Um, another 1, uh, this is, you know, where my family my kind of family roots where my dad grew up, northeast part of the state of Nebraska, Uh, Cedar and Knox County, uh, very small rural communities. And these, like, these little rural communities, father Owen Corte, Uh, Father Jim Kider. They've also seen a tremendous turnaround.
And let's just say, like, it's hard for everybody, but, you know, for for those, Uh, listeners who who who understand the dynamics in our rural parishes, uh, particularly in the United States, right, where we built all of our churches a wagon ride apart. And now we have cars, and people have been driving 45 minutes to go to Walmart for decades. But only now are we at the point where we just cannot keep many of these small, beautiful, I might add, but many of these small Church buildings open anymore because the people moved, but the building stayed put. Right. Well, these guys have seen amazing things happen But for them, they use a local, uh, retreat that as their conversion moment.
People have a profound encounter with Jesus, and then they've really leaned into small groups both as a way to build disciples, But as a way to mobilize missionary disciples and and form them, um, little old Hardington, Nebraska, it's a town of 1500 people In Northeast Nebraska has over 60 small groups going for lent. Like, I I mean, there's just like a handful of parishes in the world that I'm aware of that have more than 60 small groups. And this town has 1500 people in it. It's amazing. It's so beautiful to see.
I'm not gonna go on. There's so many beautiful things happening. And here's we were joking before we turn on turn on the mics. You know, some some of our listeners aren't gonna understand what I'm about to say, and some of you are gonna laugh your heads off. But miracle of miracles, not are these parishes seeing lives changed, but some of them actually think the chancery was helpful in in helping them figure out how to do it.
Um, and for those of you who who aren't laughing yet, you don't know what that means, I just have to say not the experience of, you know, pastors in the field and parish leaders, They don't always experience the chancery as helpful. And praise God, you know, I've got a good team, and we've got a great archbishop. Uh, some of these folks do not know when we see them Seeing lives change, but they're like, you know what? Uh, thank you, archbishop. Like, this Right.
Like, the folks you sent us have actually been helpful. 

[00:40:52] Ron: Yeah. That's so beautiful. And it's been fun because that's how you and I met kinda working together Yes. With your team, equipping them to I come alongside of pastors, and I just love that you guys did that.
Like, it was so I mean, you guys were the first church that I did that or Church diocese, I did that way. And it was a wonderful I'm so excited for you guys and what you who you were, what you're trying to do, the heart you And and the people you surrounded yourself by is just so beautiful. Like, I really believe what your your archbishop did an amazing job hiring the people he did. 

[00:41:27] Jim: It it felt so crazy at the time because for many, many years, the chancellery did good work, but But we were doing work that, you know, in retrospect, um, the parishes weren't yet maybe equipped to do it, but we were doing work that ideally the parish would do itself. So we were trying to evangelize young people.
We were trying to comfort the grieving. We were preparing people for marriage, and we were doing a darn good job. The problem was we never quite equipped the parishes to do that themselves. Right. And the fruit Was always limited because when a young person would have this conversion moment on this trip we would take them on Or when someone would find comfort in their grieving or, you know, someone would be prepared for marriage and like, yeah.
Wow. We actually do want Jesus to be a part of our marriage. That moment happened apart from their local faith community. Their pastor, their deacon, The couples and families and their parish were not a part of it, and often it didn't last. And and what we realized is 1, just Budgetary reality, we couldn't sustain kind of a giant system like that.
Mhmm. And 2, it wasn't really what the Lord was asking us, at least at this moment. And so, we we just kinda reorganized. Listen. We're gonna come alongside our parish leaders, and we're gonna serve them.
And we're gonna we're gonna trust that Their labors, their experience, their knowledge, uh, with again, we're we're not afraid to bring our our experience and our knowledge into that, But we come with this kind of fundamental trust that they actually have it in them, that the grace is there, and that we just get to kinda the ministry of the archbishop and help them with that. Mhmm. And it's it's been so fun. Uh, I mean, not easy, but it's been Very fun and very grace filled. 

[00:43:22] Ron: Uh, and, again, I love that you guys are willing to experiment because, you You know, you guys aren't a huge diocese with with, you know, couple of billionaires just funding the bishops every whim.
Like, I mean, it'd be wonderful if that were the case. And and so I I work with other diocese who do have teams of people that are dedicated to that 1 and only thing. But you guys are a diocese. You do have your subspecialties, and you come alongside of of, yeah, Parish, I just think that's so beautiful. It's not unlike some parishes have loads of staff with which they create a leadership team from.
It's like, well, that's wonderful, but loads of churches Don't have any staff. Mostly. And they do it with with people who are already working and and volunteers. And so there are ways to do it if you're committed To doing it. And, uh, I really admire the work you've done, the team you've assembled, and how you've grown and continue to Learn from 1 another and how you love the pastors you serve on behalf of the church.

[00:44:26] Jim:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's our home.
You know, many of them, uh, I mean, there there are pastors. You know? I mean, all of us we're we're in a unique spot where all of us grew up here. Uh, 1 of the members of the team is a is a condor, but all of us, we have roots here. And we… Yeah.
I mean, do you know these are this is this is our home. Uh, and there's a there's a I think there's a there's a gift that comes comes with that. 

[00:44:52] Ron: Mhmm. So yeah. Yeah.
It's so beautiful. Well, thank you for all the work you do, and and thank you for taking the time to write this book. I honestly, I can't recommend this book enough. If you're a church who and you're listening to this going, yeah, we do good work. We're good people.
We're faithful, but I'm not so sure I could articulate a clear path. You're going to wanna buy a handful of these and read them together. I go through this chapter by chapter. Jamie put all kinds of great material in here to have just the average Catholic Work with their other peers to come up with something extraordinarily clear. 

[00:45:29] Jim: Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I I appreciate you're saying that, Ron. I mean, what it's designed for. Like like, read it. There are discussion questions at the end of every chapter.
You know, I did my best to kinda Take off my nerd hat and write this in a way so that a pastor or a ministry leader can read it with a team, And they don't have to be theological experts. They just have to love the Lord and be willing to come alongside that leader. So, this is written so a group can read it together. And part 1 is like, okay. Here's the concept.
Here's here's this process of evangelization and this notion of creating a clear path. And then part 2, which we I mean, we haven't even dove into, but it's just like it's how do you build it? How do you discern? How do you assess your current mis ministries? How do you communicate when the time's right?
How do you help ministries that aren't a part of it align to your clear path? And then maybe my my favorite part is the part 3 is I wrote 1 of those kind of fictional case studies of, uh, father Dave and Saint Mary's parish And their odyssey to build a clear path of discipleship because it gives you a picture of kind of the internal hopes and dreams and fears and kind of twists and turns When when you set out on a journey like this to to do this in a parish, it gives you a picture of of what it what it looks like and what it feels like. 

[00:46:50] Ron: So cool. So beautiful. And and I'm thinking too just as you're sharing, I'm thinking from a diocesan perspective.
If you're responsible for helping parishes like Jim and his team are. Get the book as a team and work through it yourselves and and and discern whether or not you believe that this could be helpful For the churches that you serve because in in both circumstances, I think you're gonna be awfully glad you have it. I wish I had it all those years ago when we were struggling Because we would have got there a lot faster, and there would have been a lot less carnage in the process of learning. And so, thank you for taking the time to distill your learnings And and bless the church and your, uh, your gift. 

[00:47:32] Jim: Well, thanks, Ron.
I mean, you're the real deal. We were learning from you. And Yeah. I'm honored, I mean, that you took the time to to read it and offer an endorsement. That means a lot because, you know, there's it's probably been the most gratifying thing.
There have been A number of diocese that have, you know, bought a couple of cases and and see see the fit that this is for their desire to to help theirs. But I find it most gratifying when people who have done done it, they're like, they already kinda built a clear path. Maybe they called it a game plan. Maybe they called it something else. But they've they've they've done it, and they're like, man.
Like, you just wrote a book that talks about what we did. Uh, and that's that's what's most encouraging. People who have, like, who've lived it, who've done it, could say, like, yeah. This thanks a lot. Your timing stinks.
I wish I had had this 5 years ago, I was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We're we're working on it. But, you know, there would be if it hadn't been for kinda Pioneers like you and Father James. Mhmm.
Uh, there wouldn't be a book because there wouldn't be a story to tell. There wouldn't have been best practices to distill. 

[00:48:36] Ron: Mhmm. 

[00:48:36] Jim: So, thank you, Ron. 

[00:48:37] Ron: Thank you.
I I really appreciate that. It's fun how God brings us together, and I really believe the spirit is on the move in our church today To bring clarity so that we can glorify him by our fruitfulness. 

[00:48:50] Jim: Yeah, amen. 

[00:48:51] Ron: It's so true. So, thank you for listening, everybody.
I Really appreciate you coming along the journey. Um, before I let you go, Jim, actually, before I wind up, I'm just thinking there's probably people going, how do I get a hold of this book? Yeah. I know I hear from Jim. Like, are you gonna be speaking?
Because you're a great speaker. You really need to be speaking, and you're gonna put off those chores that your wife's probably Yeah. Really Frustrated that you've been letting go on Saturday mornings. But tell tell us a little bit about that before we wrap up. 

[00:49:18] Jim: Okay.
Well, you know, I am willing to I love my day job, And, uh, but I I have a heart for, um, anybody who's like, I wanna do this. Yes. I I wanna build a clear path. I wanna make disciples. I wanna see lives transformed.
I would love to have a conversation. I'd love to help. Um, you can, uh, you can find the book at clear path book dot com. Uh, that's the website. Uh, it has information.
You can that's You can get a hold of me there, so it's got my contact information so you can reach out. Just hit the the contact button. Um, and you can also order the book. It's on Amazon. Um, the website clear path book dot com will take you there.
Um, but you can also just go directly, uh, you know, if you search. I think Oprah wrote a Clear Path book, so that's not the 1. She and I did not collaborate on this project. She's not Jim's the guy with the beard, not the Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah. So, Jim Jansen, Clear Path. Um, but, yeah, Clear Path Book dot com will get you there. And on Amazon, there's both kinda like the Kindle ebook version And the good old fashioned paper copy, and that'll get you started. 

[00:50:23] Ron: Fantastic.
That's a clear path to Jim Jensen, so that that works so perfect. I I I hope you, uh, if you're a diocese, I'd really encourage you to get Jim out to do some workshops with some of your your pastors if you're if you're doing some study days or things like that, it was just a great idea, a great way to engage. And so, again, thank you for listening. I'm so glad you joined us for these conversations. Thanks for everything you do at your parish and your diocese to make it amazing.
Jesus is alive and well. You're filled with the holy spirit, and we should be making a difference in walking in miracle. So, God bless you, and we'll see you next time. I want to encourage you. As you lead this week, be faithful to God and generous to others.
See you next time. And remember, if you're still breathing, you are powered for impact.