Zvi Ish Shalom 
"Kedumah and Jewish Mysticism"

[MUSIC]

Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement.

[MUSIC]

[00:00:44.12] 
David:
Hello. Today I'd like to work Zvi Ish Shalom to the podcast. Zvi is an Associate Professor of the Wisdom Traditions and is the originator and teacher of Kedumah. It's such a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you.
 
[00:00:57.03] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:58.02] 
David:
So, is there anything else you'd like to add? That was a very short description of you. Anything special? Anything fun? Put you on the spot, I guess.

[00:01:09.21] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I think you captured the uh -- the relevance -- LAUGHING -- 

[00:01:16.05] 
David:
Awesome. 

[00:01:17.11] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Maybe in the course of -- our discussion -- some interesting things will come out. 

[00:01:20.17] 
David:
Awesome. Can't wait. So, I would just like to know a little bit about yourself. Like, tell me about your spiritual practice. Tell me about your practices. Tell me what lineage you come from. How you practice. How long you've been practicing. Just a little bit about that.

[00:01:35.12] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I come from a -- an Orthodox Jewish background. So, I grew up in the Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn, New York. I was born in Israel, but my family came back to the United States when I was an infant and raised me within the traditions of Orthodox Judaism. I come from a long line of rabbis. In a way I was --

[00:02:07.11] 
David:
How long is that line?

[00:02:09.05] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
All the way back to King David, actually. 

[00:02:11.22] 
David:
What? Wow, very cool.

[00:02:14.01] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yeah. You know as far as we know. We do have a family tree that traces it back there. 

[00:02:19.12] 
David:
Oh wow. 

[00:02:20.15] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
But who know. So, I -- you know was deeply immersed in -- not just culture but in that practice. And, that informed me in a deep way -- and has continued to be the primary lineage to which I plugged into in the Primordial sense. So, I did actually trained to be a rabbi in the orthodox path and served in that function for a bit. And over the years my personal journey went through many twists and turns. And while I don't -- like many of us, I think. 

So, while I don't -- I wouldn't consider my practice these days to be traditional exactly. Certainly not the way it was when I grew up. I still feel that's Kedumah, which is -- which is my own personal practice and the practice and the path that I teach -- is grounded and rooted in the wisdom stream of that lineage that I was trained.

[00:03:34.15] 
David:
Very cool. Thanks for sharing. You say your practices are a little less traditional? How -- like in comparison to traditional practices -- what does that look like? You know like what does a traditional practice look like compared to a practice that you do that is associated with untraditional?

[00:03:51.17] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Traditionally, Judaism is practiced by way of rituals. 
By rituals, I mean that in a broader sense. It includes actual ritualistic practices, you know, that involve ritual objects, but it also includes ritualistic prayer. That is to say prayers that are based on a liturgy of traditional Hebrew formula. It includes ritualistic forms of study. 

So, studying Torah in a certain way. While I do participate in some of those rituals in the broader sense -- my personal practice has shifted from one that is centered around ritual to one that is more about integrating the direct experience of presence... of divinity... of reality into everyday life. 

So, I think the rituals actually their original function was to facilitate that kind of a process. But for me, I have found that there are more accessible ways for many people in our culture to access an embodied condition of presence in everyday life that does not require them to engage in these, you know, oftentimes complicated and inaccessible rituals that are relevant for someone in an Orthodox community, but not very relevant for, you know, 99 percent of the planet. Y

So, Kedumah for me represents a way to transmit the essence -- the Primordial spirit of Judaism into a paradigm that is accessible for anybody really -- of any tradition or of no tradition at all.

[00:06:01.10] 
David:
Yeah, I really like the accessibility of the information, the spirit and using that in everyday life and not having a ritual that's like you do that over there. Then you come back to your real life. It's the practice is the life. So, I'm just curious how long you've been teaching at Naropa and also what was your path? How did you find this position teaching spirituality at Naropa?

[00:06:30.03] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I've been teaching at Naropa for ten years. 

[00:06:32.02] 
David:
Oh cool. 

[00:06:33.19] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
And when I started teaching here I was a rabbi of a congregation actually -- nearby. And at that time the -- well Reb Zalman who was one of our great legends of Naropa. Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi -- he was our world wisdom chair here for some time. He was teaching the courses in Jewish mysticism and Judaism at that time, and after he retired there was a kind of need for someone to teach those courses. 

We had a wonderful Professor Miles Grossen who took over those courses for several years and then when he retired -- Naropa invited me to teach as an adjunct -- the Jewish mysticism course, which I did for a year or two. And then a full time faculty position had been approved and there is a national search for a candidate for that seat which I had applied for and was offered that position. So, since that time I've been a full time sort of core faculty at Naropa.

[00:07:56.00] 
David:
What is it like teaching at Naropa? You know, because we teach just contemplative model. We have not so traditional class settings, which are really fun and really heart opening, enjoyable experiences and really small intimate one on one kind of base classroom just engaging with each other. Like what is that like for you teaching Jewish mysticism in such a contemplative model setting?

[00:08:21.21] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
It's great. It's really an optimal way to engage these teachings and these practices. The Jewish mystical tradition deeply values and understands the contemplative dimension of the interpersonal dynamic. So, many Jewish practices -- traditionally speaking involve a kind of dialectical process between two people or between groups of folks. 

The traditional way that Torah is studied as a contemplative practice is in pairs. Actually. Yeah, and also you know in groups. So, when I'm teaching at Naropa I employ many of those traditional techniques in a contemporary way, obviously. In a way that is you know -- fits our students and context but it's a very seamless kind of translation from the more traditional models into a more contemporary way of approaching it.

And I also -- aside from Jewish mystical courses I teach a course on Kabbalah and consciousness and also contemplative Judaism.

But also --

[00:09:44.20] 
David:
Those all sound fun. 

[00:09:45.08] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yeah, they're really fun. And also -- I also teach a lot of comparative mysticism courses. So, there's a course called religion and mystical experience where we look at mystical experience across seven or eight different traditions. As well as a graduate seminar called non-dualism. Yeah, where we look at specifically non dual modes of perception both in theory and in practice in many different traditions. And have a chance to not just understand how these traditions view the non-dual mystical experience. But also, we get to kind of play with it experientially, which is really fun.

[00:10:31.11] 
David:
Sounds like you teach all the classes I wanna take.

[00:10:35.06] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yeah, join us. 

[00:10:36.14] 
David:
I'd love to actually. You spoke a little bit about Kedumah and I know you have a group called the Kedumah Institute. Can you just say what that is? You know then we can dive a little deeper into like how you function with that? What do you teach? 

[00:10:51.13] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
The Kedumah Institute is an organization that was established a few years ago to support the Kedumah teachings. So Kedumah is a teaching that I began to introduce to students about four years ago. And this teaching or this path is the path of the Primordial Torah. Kedumah is a Hebrew word that means Primordial or ancient.

[00:11:19.03] 
David:
Is Kedumah the actual teachings or is this a word you extracted from the teachings that you're calling it that? 

[00:11:27.20] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Kedumah is a word that is found in the ancient texts.
And it's a word that I've extracted from those texts. I've given as the name of this set of teachings that I've been kind of guiding people in over the past number of years.  Yeah, does that that makes sense?

[00:11:48.10] 
David:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Because I wasn't sure if Kedumah was like teachings -- Kedumah teachings or if took that word and then you morphed into your own could Kedumah teachings?

[00:12:00.19] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yeah, I would say that -- I would say both. 

[00:12:04.14] 
David:
Oh OK. 

[00:12:05.06] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Kedumah is a set of teachings. And at the same time, I've taken that word and then given it the name and situated it in a certain kind of framework.

So, personally I don't experience Kedumah or the Kedumah teachings as -- as mine. Even though I have been the person who has been introducing them and presenting them to the world. So, that's -- for that reason I give it this name and relate to it as a -- as a teaching that pre-existed me and my own individual mind.

[00:12:45.22] 
David:
You're the channel of the Kedumah.

[00:12:47.23] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
In a sense.

[00:12:48.23] 
David: 
Very cool. So, you say -- what did you say it was -- it was the Primordial Torah? 

[00:12:55.14] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yes.

[00:12:56.10] 
David:
That's awesome. Can you say more about that? Like what does Primordial Torah mean to you?

[00:13:02.13] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
So, the Primordial Torah is a principle that's found in the ancient Hebrew texts and it's referred to as the Torah Kedumah. Which is where I got the name Kedumah from -- the Primordial Torah. And according to these teachings -- these ancient teachings, the world was created through the vehicle of this Primordial Torah. So, the Primordial Torah is not a text. It's not the Hebrew Bible. It's not an historical expression of a teaching. It is something more Primordial. It's pre-existence -- it's pre-creation and it's --

[00:13:47.09] 
David:
So, it's like a action instead of a object? 

[00:13:52.02] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
It's -- I would say a cosmic force or a cosmic principle. That the texts say that you know the Holy One gazed through the Primordial Torah in order to create the world. It is the interface between the infinite and the finite. It is that myster -- maybe that's one way to think about it, but a big part of the Kedumah teachings and the first few chapters of the book the Kedumah experience that I -- that was recently published goes into a lot more depth into the concept of the Primordial Torah and shares some of those texts. 

So, folks can kind of see more clearly what this Primordial Torah is pointing to. But, really the point that I think is most important for our listeners to understand is that the Primordial Torah represents a state of being that is prior to our concepts. It's a mode of being present that is free from the thinking mind. It is our Primordial original nature that is undisturbed and unconfined by conventional historically conditioned modes experience. 

So, when we return to the Primordial Torah in this teaching we -- in the Kedumah path we are in a sense returning to that original pristine state of consciousness. And that's really the most important teaching of the Primordial Torah.

[00:15:43.09] 
David:
Awesome thank you for sharing. Yeah, I love this. This is good stuff. 

[00:15:48.09] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I think so.

[00:15:49.13] 
David:
So, when -- what is it that you teach like you have this institute that you started. And, you're the originator now. So, it's like you started it. You teach it. We talked a little bit before and it sounds like you do retreats. It sounds like you do week long sessions. Can you just tell me how do you translate this information to people?

[00:16:09.09] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yes, we offer through the institute -- online courses, in person retreats, and training programs. All of which are designed to guide a person through a journey from what we call a state of contraction, which is more the usual state of mind --

[00:16:35.13] 
David:
Concept mind -- functionality.

[00:16:38.01] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Exactly. What we call a kind of way of being imprisoned by our historically conditioned identity and range of experience. That's what we mean by contraction -- like we're kind of, oftentimes, most of the times for most of us. We are operating within a very confined range experience.

[00:17:01.23] 
David:
Our parameters have been closing in on us. 

[00:17:04.13] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Exactly. And some traditions would you know refer to that state of being as a state of suffering or you know kind of the basic condition of human suffering. And, we do see a state of contraction as the source of human suffering. So, in the Kedumah teachings we have a very clearly outlined path of how to move -- from the state of contraction, where we usually find ourselves, into a state of expansion where we're able to become more free from those confining, limiting elements of our mind. Ultimately to what we call the journey of wholeness, which represents a more complete integration of our personal history. With our realization of our essential freedom and expansion. All the way to deeper states of mystical knowing. We call the journey of vastness and ultimately the journey of freedom. 

So, we have these five journeys that we use as a model and these are based on cabalistic teachings. And in Kedumah basically all of our courses that we offer -- our retreats and our training programs are designed to walk a person gently, but clearly from their state of suffering toward a state of freedom.

[00:18:33.22] 
David:
Yeah, I really like that there's -- there's something really cool about understanding the journey so well that you're able to guide people through it. And in Buddhism realizing that there's suffering and it's here it's happening, and we could shift in a way that we see it differently. We respond to it differently and / or we take it out of our lives in such a way that we're not producing it for others or ourselves. 

And then from there then we vibrate the experience a little bit harder and you just keep going and it just sounds like a really nice experience to go through. 

Is it a lifelong practice sort of like you know you take it -- you're like oh cool thanks. Thanks for that. 

[00:19:16.23] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I would say there's different levels of engagement depending on where a person is at and what they're available for and what they're interested in. 

So, we have more introductory gateway level opportunities for people. Like I do have profound experiences of opening just through an online course or through a weekend teaching. But really because Kedumah is oriented toward living a life -- a full life in the world. It's not a monastic path. So, we see life as our monastery. Life is our temple, it is our ashram. It is our practice. So, it is a life long journey in the sense that opportunities for realization and for discovery are endless. Are infinite. And they're as endless as life is an endless.

So, we don't orient to a particular state as an end goal of the path. But, we do orient to freedom as our birth right. That is accessible to us. And freedom means the freedom to be fully accepting of and intimacy with our experience regardless of the content of our experience. 

[00:20:44.04] 
David:
Wow. 

[00:20:45.02] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Which means that while it's not a particular end state -- it is freedom from the need for enlightenment or any particular state. And we see freedom as a higher value than we do enlightenment. 

[00:21:04.15] 
David:
Interesting. I like this. And using -- using life experiences as your temple -- as your compass needle to exploring yourself and exploring your spirituality -- I really like that. So, while we've been talking you've explained that you've written a book, and this was a recent release of yours, it's called the Kedumah Experience: The Primordial Torah. And I'm just kind of curious -- can you just talk about this a little bit? What inspired you to write this book? Where did it come from? Because it sounds like you've been doing the Kedumah Institute for a bit. You've been teaching Jewish mysticism.
You have like a long line of family history with spirituality. How did you get inspired to write this book and what did you write about essentially?

[00:21:50.22] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
The book actually is based on the first set of teachings that I gave in I think it was 2014 maybe, which was actually just down the road on Grove Street -- just a few blocks from where we're sitting. Four blocks from Naropa University. 

I knew that this teaching needed to somehow get out into the world -- it had been incubating in my own consciousness for a long time. And so, I let some folks know that I'm going to be getting a series of talks on this teaching called the Primordial Torah and of course nobody knew what that was. And I didn't even know at that point what would come out of my mouth during those talks. But I knew that it was in there and that I needed to create a context for it to arise. 

So, we met for 11 meetings. There were about, I don't know maybe 30 or so folks who showed up for this series. Many of them Naropa students and Naropa faculty. 

Those first talks represent the foundational teachings of Kedumah. And so, the book is essentially edited transcripts of those talks. 

So, the book is a representation of these -- of the first presentation an introduction to the Kedumah teachings and provides a pretty comprehensive overview of the metaphysics and the practices of Kedumah.

[00:23:30.12] 
David:
Ok, where did the idea come from to start a book. You did these talks from the incubation of information you were sitting with and then you just did the talk and you were like this feels like it could be a book and then you just wrote a book out of that? Or did someone suggest it to you? 

[00:23:47.17] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
We -- I gave the talks and then at that point you know there was no Kedumah Institute. There was no -- there was nothing. It was just me offering this teaching. The experience of the group was such that there was a core group of those folks who wished to continue on this path. 

So, we continued to meet -- pretty much on a weekly basis since that time. So, for the last four years this same group has continued to meet, and the teachings have continued to be presented in deeper and deeper ways and deeper, deeper experience. 

So, a whole curriculum of the path developed over the last four years and at some point, it became clear to me and to others that this thing is a real thing. That has its own life and its own force and could be of benefit to others for whom it may resonate for them. 

And so, the -- the motivation to take those first teachings and put them into a book came out of my sense based on the evidence that I was seeing that these teachings you know may resonate with others out there. And so, it was a way to make it available.

[00:25:07.16] 
David:
Awesome. Very cool. 

So, it seems like in the Kedumah teachings there's a lot of spiritual inter-disciplinary. There is like this vast range of knowledge and availability to see things in multiple ways. How is it that you facilitate this vast range of teachings? Because it's not like oh do this and this will happen. It's be open and see what happens. Then you know it seems like you give people tools to filter how they experience their lives. 

So, it's like how do you teach these ranges of that?

[00:25:45.18] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
I would say I employ a two pronged approach to that. 

[00:25:50.17] 
David:
Two prongs?

[00:25:52.07] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Two prongs. One prong. I don't know --

[00:25:56.18] 
David:
Prong of a word.

[00:25:58.01] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Is to cultivate directly the experience of presence of connection to being to reality. In a way that's not filtered through the conceptual mind. And there are time tested practices that many traditions are, you know, utilize that are effective in helping someone connect to a more direct mode of experience with reality. 

So, we do employ a handful of those techniques. The other prong is to work with our psyche and with our personal history and with our suffering. Directly in a way that allows the rigidity of our consciousness to over time begin to unwind and open more and more to the light of being to that which is most true, most real, and most precious to us actually that oftentimes has been lost to our experience of life. 

And so, we want to both cultivate the direct experience and on the other hand we also want to work with ourselves in a way that permits that essential light to shine more clearly through this lens of our soul -- of our consciousness. 

And so, you know we employ both techniques, but also a lot of process work that is really important in terms of integrating our realizations into our day to day life. We do a lot of group work, a lot of interpersonal exercises, a lot of meditation and of course the teachings themselves are also transmissions. 

They are also practices. So even as I'm speaking now into this podcast the listener can relate through the conceptual mind listening to these ideas and concepts and approach it as interesting information or maybe not interesting information, but -- or they can feel into the presence that is being generated through our words. 

And that has a different effect on the consciousness when a person orients that way. So, in Kedumah we teach people how to orient to every single moment of our life from that more awakened state of presence. 

[00:28:43.18] 
David:
Yeah. Wow that's pretty beautiful. So, I'm hearing this tools and techniques that are applicable to everyday life, everyday situations, everyday moments -- they're not this thing where you learn the technique and then you have to go sit in a room with an altar and pray and do these practices and then you go practice in the world. It's like the practices is the world and you get to show up in every moment and how you're saying is like when we're sitting here talking -- we're practicing how to say the words, how it rolls off the mind and into the audio spectrum for people to hear and then they can relate on the level that they're using their conceptual minds from. But, I'm really enjoying how this is a practice that you can just go out into the world and you're not saying you're this or that -- you're just a practicing person of mindfulness and presence.


[00:29:41.00] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Exactly. Every moment of life is a practice. The world is our temple.

[00:29:48.04] 
David:
Oh, wait here's another one --

[00:29:48.07] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
And life is a practice. 

[00:29:50.17] 
David:
And really life is a practice and the more you practice the more fun it is. And the more fun it gets -- the more easier it is to practice and itŐs like last practice more fun. You could say.

[00:30:02.15] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Absolutely. And the thing is -- is that we tend to be quite guarded in terms of our vulnerability to presence and day to day life. So, we tend to relate to others and to the world from a very head centered thinking oriented mode. You know it's like our heads are leading the way. And there's nothing wrong with that. We don't have a judgment about it in Kedumah but if that's the range of our experience then it's just limited. ItŐs just -- it's not the totality of who we are. And therefore, we're going to experience some degree of inner frustration of dis ease and of suffering because we're not living what we fully are.

But in order to include what we fully are it requires our heart being open, our body being open and permeable to presence and that is a process of learning how to do that, how to trust that that's ok, how to work with all of our wounds that we have around being open and permeable to the world, to other, to spirit. 

So, it makes life so much more rich. And also, we recognize that it's helpful to have a teaching and a path and a community to practice this with actually. We can practice engaging with each other in these more open ways in a safe context because the world often times has not been kind to us when we have been open. So, I mean it's kind of like we want to rewire our nervous system to learn how it's safe and it's ok for us to be rooted in our own being and to be open with others in that way.

[00:32:05.10] 
David:
Yeah, because you can just go out there and be like I'm going to be open and just let it all hang out and then somehow you get hurt and then you recoil back into the conceptual mind or not living from the heart, but if you have like a skillful way to live your heart and you have techniques and something you know happens to you where it makes you want to recoil. But you did the best you can. Then there is no reason to recoil. It's just like another learning experience. And I really like the fact that you're developing a way to live through the heart and your body and essentially your mind -- you're like kind of bringing them all together -- interdisciplinary playing with each other to live in the present moment and to decide in that moment where you're going to answer those questions. How are you going to go live your life? How are you going to move through space and interact with your community or whatever.

[00:32:58.17] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Exactly. Yes, I would say to sum it all up in terms of the question of what in terms of what could Kedumah is offering -- many spiritual teachings recognize -- that it's all in the now. Truth is available to us most deeply in the present moment. And yet, for many people it's not available -- it's not accessible. We don't know how to do that. How do we actually live in the present moment? Kedumah is simply offering one way, one method, one path of how to live in the present moment. 

[00:33:41.03] 
David:
Awesome. I love that sum up. Thank you.

[00:33:45.05] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Yes.

[00:33:45.01] 
David:
So that's a good sum up.

So that's our time and I just wanted to kind of shout you out a bit and so you have a book. You have the institute. Can you just tell people where to find your book. Maybe what it's called and how to find you online or whatever.

[00:33:58.21] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
The best way to find me online is to go to our web site -- www.kedumah.org.

[00:34:10.15] 
David:
Can you spell Kedumah real quick?

[00:34:11.18] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
K-E-D-U-M-A-H. And on the web site you will find you know links to everything that we offer -- both the book or our online courses, our training programs or retreats. We do monthly gatherings in Boulder, which are also live streamed across the world. So -- and you can participate. We have folks from all over the world who dial in and connect with our community. So, that's the best way.

[00:34:44.19] 
David:
Awesome. I really appreciate you speaking with me today -- itŐs a real treat. It's also really fun because you're my neighbor so it's kind of fun to just walk across the street and hang out with you.

[00:34:54.01] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
It was awesome.

[00:34:55.03] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Really appreciate you. Thank you.

So, I'd like to thank, Zvi Ish Shalom. He is an Associate Professor in the Wisdom Traditions and the originator and teacher of Kedumah. Also, the writer of the Kedumah Experience: A Primordial Torah. 

So, thanks again for speaking with me. 

[00:35:10.20] 
Zvi Ish Shalom:
Thank you, David. I appreciate it.

[MUSIC]  

On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.   

[MUSIC]