Stephanie Yuhas "Approaching Insterspirtual Dimensions" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:46.01] DAVID: Hello, today I'd like to welcome Stephanie Yuhas to the podcast. Stephanie is an instructor in the Religious Studies department and also teaches in other various departments. So, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:57.05] STEPHANIE: Hi, David. Thanks for having me here today. You wanted me to mention a few things about what I teach and what my trajectory is here so in addition to teaching in religious studies where I teach things like alternative spiritualities and new religious movements that covers everything from paganism and entheogens to Native American spirituality and things like that. And some of the things that I want to cover today which has to do with our interspiritual dimensions and the way that we can approach hybridity among traditions. I also have a background and teach in the ecopsychology department and I am teaching in the Contemplative Ad department as well. [00:01:47.23] DAVID: Wow, you sound very busy. [00:01:49.20] STEPHANIE: That's an understatement. [00:01:52.03] DAVID: Very cool. So, what are we going to talk about today. So, really what I wanted to address today has to do with the interspiritual dimensions of what we can offer here at this university because I think a lot of people are actually unaware of the multiple dimensions that we have here. And the fact that a lot of what I've been actually researching and studying in the last few years is how millennials and Gen Z in particular approach spirituality. And, there is this term that people bandy about a lot called spiritual but not religious. But that is only the tip of the iceberg because that actually becomes detrimental to look at it that. It is so broad and expansive that I think maybe there has been multiple religious belonging has been another way that we can approach this. But, I also think if we broaden it out now itÕs really about interspiritual dimensions. The reason I say that is because let me actually define this for you. So, Wayne Teasdale wrote a book called, "The Mystic Heart." And he was the one who coined this term. In spirituality and what he was talking about is an opening of dialogue and sharing of wisdom among leaders and practitioners of different religious traditions. Because people are no longer satisfied with a singular affiliation. And, I want to emphasize that I am not interested in uh saying that we need breadth instead of depth. I think we actually need both. But I think people need to be aware of all the possibilities and I think that young people in particular are not willing to say I am only going down one path. [00:03:52.08] DAVID: Yeah, why do you think that is? Why it kind of holds us back or -- the idea of not wanting to be so devoted to one tradition? [00:03:59.02] STEPHANIE: So, I think actually one thing I would say is it started a long time ago. LAUGHS. Maybe long - yeah very long. Maybe people don't even realize that uh when Luther back when he broke from Catholicism that one of the things that was actually happening there is he was saying that people did not want an intermediary to speak with God for them. They wanted a direct connection. And, I think that that direct connection is actually what's happening now and some of the things that we can point to are also that our entire country was really founded on this kind of more rebellious individual tradition. There is a number of books that out around this and I don't really want to point to any specific one, but I will just say that look at Emerson Thoreau and the Transcendentalists as an example because they were actually doing this a long time ago. We also have traditions of mediums and mystics and the Quakers and all kinds of things that are in our historical past that we can point to that says we've been doing this a long time. [00:05:15.16] DAVID: Yeah. There is a lot of stuff out there that kind of points in so many different directions. So, what do you think the difference is between spirituality and religious? When someone says I'm spiritual or I'm religious - what do you think the difference is or - and / or the intersection between those two? [00:05:33.05] STEPHANIE: So, I think it is important to acknowledge that there is an intersection between these two and that people have varying ways of approaching this and relating to it. So, one might be that if you think you're spiritual and not religious, which is the way a lot of young people are talking about this - itÕs really because they maybe have been harmed in some way or hurt by what's happened in their youth and they feel some kind of oppression from the tradition of their birth or the tradition that their family raised them in. There is also a sense in which they are so open because of the internet and technology that they've actually had so many options to see you know multi-cultural understandings or even to travel globally and to be able to experience so many things that they are no longer satisfied with just something that is narrow focused and sort of boxes them in. So, they are looking at multiple spiritualities as a way of understanding themselves. Their own path, their own heart. And how their awareness and consciousness actually goes out into the world. Now, people that are affiliated with a particular religious what is actually happening is that that movement is driving people to look at their own traditions more clearly. So, we can look at Catholicism and we can say look we have Pope Francis who is challenging a lot of the things that people in Catholicism have actually been practicing for the last couple hundred years. And so, he's actually even coming up against the ideas of colonialism that might have been perpetrated or priests who actually might not have been so good with all of their parishioners. And so, itÕs actually challenging people in religious traditions to remember what are the authentic teachings? How do we actually abide with the things you know itÕs sort of like that old thing - what would Jesus do? And so, well what would he do and how would you and your morals and ethics act in the world? [00:07:50.21] DAVID: Yeah. It seems as though religion and traditions and way of thinking is just a vehicle to become a better person. ItÕs up to us and our hearts and souls to manifest that. To alchemize that into the external / internal worlds. So, I am really feeling on that. [00:08:11.01] STEPHANIE: Well, I think this is actually a good place for me to mention a few things about how Naropa and our programs are actually at the forefront of this. I think sometimes that we forget how progressive Naropa was. You know that the founder Chogyam Trungpa came here from Tibet via Oxford of course so actually he had a little bit of both. [00:08:35.19] DAVID: He had a layover. [00:08:36.04] STEPHANIE: Yeah. He wasn't really easily categorizable either. So, in that way Naropa has this tradition of questioning authority and questioning things and so if we're true to that dimension then we're actually going to allow people to experience things. To look at really studying and engaging in their writing and their expression, but also to embody and experience what it is that they are looking for. So, students here - let's say in our contemplative religions department could not only study the kinds of things that I am talking about as a baseline, but also going deep to our Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Into our Hindu and yoga traditions. Into even a bit of our Sufi mysticism or we actually have another faculty here, Zvi Ish-Shalom who has, "The Kadumah Experience" that he's just published, which is a book that takes Jewish Kabbalah mysticism and shows a way that people can put that on their path incorporating it with other traditions as well. [00:09:53.18] DAVID: I feel like Naropa gives you more questions instead of answer you know they will give you some information about the spirit or the tradition or the mysticism or something like that - what we do here is almost asking more questions about it. Then we ask what is your experience with that? We're not necessarily saying this is the experience you will have. You know, and I feel that has a uniqueness to it other than being here you go - here is some content, digest it, come back and see what you think. [00:10:25.00] STEPHANIE: Well, we're certainly not promoting a linear model of education. And, we're not about being talking heads. So, the idea is for people to actually bring their whole selves to the classroom and to experience both the intellectual as we might think of it - you know the kind of reading and writing and discursive mind. But also, then to have space. To cultivate awareness. To put those moments of silence in which we actually contemplate the true meaning and reflect back on what it is that we are thinking in our heart. Maybe some things we're not fond of remembering. Maybe actually healing some of the wounds of our past and understanding then how we can take those and transform them and go into the future. [00:11:27.14] DAVID: Yeah, learning how to digest is what we're kind of coming into. [00:11:31.22] STEPHANIE: Well, and I think this is important coming into the 21st century. Because things are changing very rapidly. Actually, I have something I can share with you. [00:11:44.06] DAVID: Please. [00:11:44.17] STEPHANIE: Ok. So, I'm just -- gonna read a little bit from a chapter that I have called, "Losing My Religion: Why Millennials Are Leaving the Church" that is about to be published in a collection of essays, "The Emerging Church Millennials and Religion." So, this actually might give you a little clue about what I think we're facing. As we enter the 21st century, the challenges of climate change, shrinking economies, waves of immigration and decisive politics threaten to overwhelm the human capacity for innovation and adaption. Each generation must be encouraged to use the vitality and fresh outlook that the first few decades of life provide. Millennials and Gen A have an opportunity to bring new life to old structures. And reinvent or rediscover epistemologies that break down barriers and find common ground among perceived disparate peoples in traditions. Taking a cue from system science we might consider that new patterns emerge when systems face increasing levels of complexity. The period before an emergent property appears might seem chaotic and unsettled much like our world does today. Young people are seeking answers to problems that look unsolvable. They will not be satisfied with a static response to questions about meaning making. Instead, the will seek an embodied experiential egalitarian relationship with each other and the spiritual and religious world view that provides support for their endeavors. [00:13:32.14] DAVID: I really like that. There is always something about when it always come down to being supportive. That really makes me feel like I am being supportive. And sometimes you can enter a tradition or a religion and there might be somethings that are a little not so with what you are feeling. And so, itÕs the redefining that comes in and you know like I am really enjoying this idea of restructuring how we look at traditions and spirituality because times are changing. Everything is going so fast and I also wanted to touch on earlier you were talking about the internet and how everything is so wildly available for us to look into to be honest. Like when I was growing up I had no idea that I would find Buddhism. Like where am I going to find it from and I found it through the internet and I found it through books. And I found it through literature that was just happened to fall in my lap. And that fact that we're so able to just figure out things ourselves on YouTube, on Google - itÕs so amazing. [00:14:38.10] STEPHANIE: So, that's - that's really good and important because I think it brings people to a sense of awareness that they might not have if they are sort of in a captive environment where they only hear one thing from a certain group or they're in a very distilled situation but I think itÕs also important to realize that once you understand that - you know to actually engage more deeply with a tradition is very important. And, I've often said that its important - I would say 7 years is a good amount of time to go deep into a tradition and then at least you have a basic understanding. Not even necessarily a full depth of understanding. [00:15:23.06] DAVID: Why 7 years? [00:15:24.09] STEPHANIE: I guess I just think of that as the seven-year cycle of the way that our brains function and the way that our evolutionary cycle performs. [00:15:35.11] DAVID: Yeah, and also our cellular body regenerates every 7 years. So, nothing in your body is the same. ItÕs all fresh. So -- [00:15:43.01] STEPHANIE: That's true. [00:15:43.06] DAVID: This kind of - it kind of like coincides with that. [00:15:46.17] STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's good. So, you just brought in system science for me so that's great. [00:15:49.22] DAVID: Oops. LAUGHING [00:15:52.17] DAVID: Very cool. So, when it comes to this movement we're talking about - do you see this sort of movement or shift being sustainable? How do you see it unfolding, developing uh with the younger generations coming with their ideas and their energy? [00:16:10.14] STEPHANIE: So, I think that one thing that is happening is we have a lot of hybridization. And we have that across multiple streams. So, for example, inter-marriage. Interracial couples. Lots of different ethnicities getting together. Then we have different sexualities. We have transgender. We have all these different things in which people are shifting their identities all the time. And so, we have to remain open to that idea of complete pluralism. Complete ecumenism. So, completely open about everything right? And I think that young people are coming into the world with that mind set somehow their consciousness is more evolved in that direction and I think itÕs been happening since the 60s. And that we're continuing that movement and we're going forward with that, but most of these kinds of things as we can see in many different situations - when we're doing something really progressive - there is usually a reactivity that comes back and pushes back against us. So, now people - sometimes have a tendency to go a little underground not necessarily be as vocal or sometimes and there is also a good critic that is out there that young people - some of them get really sloppy. And, they are like the spiritual shoppers. And they don't go very deep and they are really shallow. And so, I think we need to be very cautious about that because there is a materialism that has been promoted in this country and now globally that we actually need to be very aware of and not fall into. And we need to consider you know what is the - ethics of our own life. You know what is it that we're actually trying to do in the world. Who are we? And really define that very clearly through the traditions that we study. [00:18:12.17] DAVID: Yeah, it sounds almost as though itÕs a sort of by passing when you're just collecting what you like over here and then moving onto the next. Moving onto the next that you are actually bypassing the - the work of liberation within your heart. [00:18:24.22] STEPHANIE: Well, I think that is one of the things that even Chogyam Trungpa himself, our founder, would have cautioned against because he did write a whole book on spiritual materialism. And, now there is this whole thing about spiritual bypassing that is out there. And, the reason that that's there is because - people did not take this seriously enough. They actually think well once I put my toe in the water I have a taste of it. I think I understand it, but I actually do - in one of my classes I actually look at the whole uh mindfulness movement and critique it and wonder you know well have we actually gotten away from the roots of what let's say Buddhism brought to America - how do we actually preserve the tradition while still being open enough to accommodate all the different changes or differentiations that might need to occur. So, I think this is really important though because - one of my teachers (?) Rinpoche actually said things like well itÕs not so much about just sitting on a cushion and how beautiful that cushion is and what ornaments you're surrounded by. ItÕs not even maybe about can you say the words correctly or you know read the text. ItÕs actually about whether you actually feel and understand that in your heart and how you can carry that forward into the world. That meditation on its own is not something that you do for 5 minutes or even 50 minutes. But itÕs something that you should take on your path in every moment of your life and so that awareness and that consciousness is something that should inform all of your actions. All of your encounters. [00:20:21.17] DAVID: Yes, meditation is the tool. [00:20:23.12] STEPHANIE: ItÕs a tool. ItÕs not the only tool. [00:20:26.07] DAVID: Yes, one of many. [00:20:27.23] STEPHANIE: Right. [00:20:28.23] DAVID: So, you are talking about how the conditioning and the hybridization is going on and I was thinking about the younger generation is being conditioned differently than how the older generation was conditioned. So, the consciousness and the ideas that they are growing up with are going to be a little bit more different than their parents. Then their grandparents. And they are going to have a more wholistic view on the spiritual endeavors you can say. [00:21:00.23] STEPHANIE: Actually, I would say they don't necessarily have that instantaneously all of them. You know there is a few that really are gifted and have that. However, I think what's happening is that people are coming to terms with reality at a much younger age these days. And so, they actually have to see our economic situation globally may not be so good. And you may not have that long term job forever. And, how would you deal with ambiguity. There is a lot of things that are uncertain in our world. How can you actually manage that - the emotions around that and so they need some kind of guidance in a way that they can actually find how to navigate this world that's you know we're faced with so many issues like our environment that we're near midnight on the big clock, right? So, these are serious times and we need to - I think people actually understand that. [00:22:04.08] DAVID: Yeah. Serious times call for serious measures within the heart. [00:22:10.12] STEPHANIE: And, always remember that the mind is also in accord with the heart. [00:22:16.08] DAVID: Yes. [00:22:17.02] STEPHANIE: We can't just have our emotions out there on our sleeve and say - oh I am just going to show all my emotional baggage everywhere. Actually, part of what this is about is also learning how to manage some of those emotions so that we can actually allow them to flow through us without grasping, holding on - you know feeling like for example one the things that now I will admit - I was a student here myself in the 90s. [00:22:50.02] DAVID: Uh oh. [00:22:50.20] STEPHANIE: Yeah, so I actually had my own experiences of having to learn some of these things. So, I came here from New York and I was very type A and very speedy and very opinionated. And so, I had to learn how to manage my own emotions. And so, one of the things that I noticed was that the Naropa experience taught me how to let go of things much more quickly. So, in the past maybe I would have been angry for a week at a situation that occurred. And then I learned oh no well maybe I can get over it in a day. And pretty soon maybe I could get over it in an hour. And if I am really good I can get over it almost instantly like oh there it is and how itÕs gone. [00:23:37.14] DAVID: Maybe you just don't even get under it at all. [00:23:41.14] STEPHANIE: Ideally. [00:23:41.14] DAVID: Because you just get on with it. [00:23:45.04] STEPHANIE: That's great. [00:23:45.17] DAVID: So, how is Naropa special in its education? In its pedagogy and with using these ideas of interdisciplinary, different modes of spiritual thought - how do we integrate that into the teachings? [00:24:02.15] STEPHANIE: So, I think one of the things that we do here is that we offer many of the traditions and their practices that people are interested in. So, for example, in a religious studies programs - if you want and you are very scholarly - let's say you can go into an endo-Tibetan track in which you learn to read the texts and you learn Sanskrit and Tibetan language and all of those things. Or, you can come because let's say you really want to explore contemplative religions and you want a sense of the history and how it is that all of this has come to be and how you are going to move forward with it in your own life? And so, let me just say that that's one thing I think that is a mistake that people think about humanities education in general is they think - oh well, itÕs kind of washed up and really, we just need science and technology now and I think actually the opposite is true. That the more technology and science there is the world and the more that things are going into that kind of a model - the more that we need people who are able to think and feel and communicate. People who know how to write in language. People who know how to speak and articulate ideas and people who know how to listen. All of those things are incorporated into the skill sets that we are teaching in our programs and so we can actually look at different things maybe you might learn embodiment that comes doing some kind of a yoga posture. Or doing a month long (?) sitting retreat. Or you might say - I want to learn how to apply these consciousness raising activities into some other kind of awareness. Maybe it has to do with how I generate poetry. Maybe itÕs how I produce music. And so how do you actually apply some of these things? So, all of this is an option here and there is a lot of legacy practices that I want people to be aware of here that Trungpa basically invented. Things like my tree in which you know he actually has a set of rooms that you can actually go into that are 5 colors that represent the 5 wisdom energies and different postures that you adopt and then what does that bring up for you. ItÕs really interesting. [00:26:35.17] DAVID: How does that make you feel? [00:26:38.01] STEPHANIE: LAUGHS. Well it depends. I don't know uh what - what uh - did you actually do the my tree practice yourself? [00:26:46.14] DAVID: I never took the My Tree classes, but I was allowed to do some of the postures. They're very - their rooms are always being used for something and they are very interesting. ItÕs quite a thing to be told to do a certain posture and have a certain thought in your mind and then just be with yourself and see what comes up. You get activated in some way. [00:27:05.22] STEPHANIE: You do. And there is both a uh - neurotic and a positive element. Each one of the colors and the postures in the rooms. And so, I don't want to give too much away because I really want people to come and experience this for themselves. [00:27:22.09] DAVID: You're either crying or you're laughing, or you are just like scratching your head going what just happened. [00:27:29.12] STEPHANIE: And I think that's actually a good embodiment of what happens here at Naropa all the time. [00:27:35.23] DAVID: ItÕs like that bumper sticker - at Naropa someone is crying right now. [00:27:39.15] STEPHANIE: Well, and someone is also laughing. And someone is also seeing the world authentically from a whole new perspective. [00:27:47.19] DAVID: We're going to have to write a new bumper sticker. And someone is also opening their heart a little bit more than they ever did before. [00:27:52.21] STEPHANIE: And maybe you know that transform yourself, transform the world - maybe that's actually an accurate bumper sticker. [00:28:03.09] DAVID: Interesting. I like that. All right, I got one more question for you. This is fun. So, how does tradition, spirituality, religion show up in your life? Are you inter-religious? Interdisciplinary? Do you kind of draw from different traditions? [00:28:21.17] STEPHANIE: So, I am probably a unique individual in that way because -- [00:28:26.13] DAVID: No way! You're unique. [00:28:28.21] STEPHANIE: And I think we all are actually if we are honest about it. And so, I don't out myself very much, but I will say this much, and I will say - that I've had the good fortune to study with a number of different teachers. So, I have been able to study with We-chill Indians in the Sierra Madre. I've been able to study with Lakota teachers here in South Dakota. I have been able to study with a lot of Buddhist teachers including my root teacher, (?) in Woodstock. Uh (?) was one of my teachers. So, I have a lot of streams that have informed me and my own religious and spiritual thought, but I come personally from a really mystical perspective to begin with. I actually had a mystical experience when I was 7 that probably put me on this path. [00:29:28.15] DAVID: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today. [00:29:32.22] STEPHANIE: Thank you for this opportunity. And I hope everyone comes and gets a taste of Naropa! [00:29:40.10] DAVID: Yes, thank you. So, today I'd like to thank Stephanie Yuhas for being on the podcast. She is an instructor in the Religious Studies department and also a lot of various departments as well. So, thank you for coming today. [00:29:54.00] STEPHANIE: Thank you. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]