Elaine Yuen "Engaging our world with contemplative practice" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:44.11] DAVID: Hello, today I'd like to welcome Elaine Yuen to the podcast. Elaine is the department chair of the Wisdom Traditions and also an associate professor. Thanks for speaking with us. [00:00:54.09] Elaine: Thanks Dave for inviting me to this podcast. I am so excited and nervous. [00:00:59.11] DAVID: Awesome! Me too. LAUGHS. How authentic of us. Is there anything else you'd like to share? [00:01:06.02] Elaine: Well, I teach mostly in the Master of Divinity program here, which trains people to be hospital and prison chaplains and things like that. But I am also currently this semester teaching the meditation course for the undergrads, which is a lot of fun. And also, a research class out at Paramita which engages the left brain. LAUGHS. [00:01:28.19] DAVID: The left brain, yeah. [00:01:28.19] Elaine: Which is necessary to navigate in this world. So, we need both sides. [00:01:33.03] DAVID: Yeah, we have both sides, don't we? [00:01:35.15] Elaine: Yeah, at Naropa we love the right brain. We love meditation. And uh - we're always interested in figuring out how to make it work in the world. Yeah. [00:01:47.08] DAVID: And here we are figuring it out. Awesome so what are we going to be talking about today. [00:01:53.07] Elaine: Well, I thought we could talk about how do we - blend contemplative practice with service in the world? Because that's really - the most interesting thing that I've - you know just I feel my whole life path has been actually engaging that question because I - I've been practicing for over 40 years, but also had to have a family, a job - not in Boulder which is a little more you know a lot of forms and bureaucracies to navigate and what I - train my uh students or chaplains to work with is that they'll be going into these situations where there is a medical care hierarchy or there is insurance or there is all these things that we've created our social world out of. And so, the question is how can we actually extend ourselves and offer ourselves to that world in an authentic way? Where we're not sort of burning out at the same time. Yeah, that is kind of what I am interested in. In all different ways. [00:02:58.18] DAVID: Interesting. Seems as though a chaplain holds - a space for the person who is passing or transitioning - going into the bardo in the Buddhist sense. ItÕs kind of like a doula you know because you have - you have somebody there for the baby. You have somebody there for the medical issues, but the doula is there for the mother - the birth person. The person giving birth and the chaplain is there for the person transitioning. [00:03:24.07] Elaine: Yeah, and its sort of finding out what the values and -- sort of even sometimes rituals that are comforting for that person and being able to be curious enough about what's happening with them in their time of disillusion and sometimes itÕs not always death and dying. It could be just times of grief. There is actually an emerging field called disaster chaplaincy. So, we actually have - we've witnessed many natural disasters as well as violence - you know the recent gunning disasters of how do people work with that? How can we support people both at the kind of peak getting over the - the most difficult part of maybe clearing out your house is flooded, but also the residual part that can go on for years - like we are seeing that in Puerto Rico? The - it goes on for years of actually trying to recreate one's life in some way and - and so part of the practice is actually how do we meet people there and with an open heart - our open heart and not become over extended in our open heart? Yeah. [00:04:34.02] DAVID: And when you're talking about people like repairing their lives its - there is a - a material world repairing of the building - the carpet - whatever and there is this psychological rebuilding as well. Like we have emotions - we are emotional beings. We have a mind that we function with and - there is a lot of - needing that carpet out too sometimes. [00:04:57.06] Elaine: Yeah, there is a lot of loss of that emotional carpet that you might say. And uh - or you know when someone dies of course we're losing that connection we had with that person in a certain way. I mean you know there is memories and everything like that - but we're you know we're allowing some part of - our lived experience, our energetically lived experience to just pass on. [00:05:21.21] And, yeah so that's part of how we can actually give. Like just acknowledge that moment because so often we donÕt, or our society skips over that a little bit. [00:05:35.17] DAVID: So, how do we acknowledge that moment? [00:05:39.03] Elaine: Yeah, we talk a lot about sort of acknowledging with a sense of both presence buy uncertainty. So, part of baring witness is actually - for me itÕs actually acknowledging - like I have been with people when they have die and you actually don't know when they are going to die. So, itÕs not like you remove life support and then they die - that doesn't happen actually. So, its acknowledging you know moment by moment by moment and I feel that's where our contemplative practices are very supportive if not only just maybe for us - you know that helps us be more present with that moment to moment disillusion or even giving birth. You know there is a moment - the moment of all of our life really. I mean death is the one that is most poignant often. ItÕs the largest marker, but how do we stay with that moment to moment and so there is - you know I am Buddhist and we teach meditation here, but there is other contemplative practices that I feel that we also teach here like centering prayer. You know different Hindu prayers practices. I feel that's what we deeply is embedded in our curriculum here is how to be with that moment to moment sort of acknowledgement of sort of good and bad, happy and sad - you know all the things that have been written about, but you know here we actually give ourselves a chance to be curious about that. What's that actually like in our lives? [00:07:13.12] DAVID: And having a reflection of the moment because we're - we can experience the moment, but then you have this - I am having a moment. You know you step out of the moment to view the moment. [00:07:24.07] Elaine: Yeah. [00:07:26.05] DAVID: And there is something interesting about meditation that - you focus on the breath and then by focusing on the breath you start noticing the moments and then by noticing the moments you start noticing the mind moments. So, what the mind is doing in this moment. And so, by doing that you create a - you create this practice that you can show up in the moment - even in hard moments. You know and that's not easy. And it feels as though the chaplains space that they hold feels very difficult but - itÕs a different type of training. [00:07:58.23] Elaine: Yeah, it is. It is. But also, I want to say what you just said is relevant and - we were having exactly this conversation that you just sort of talked about in my introductory meditation class for the undergrads. Because - because you know - you know one of them had just totaled her car and things like that. So, they were just talking about the difficulties they experience even you know having to study a lot or worry about papers and things and that - that reflective mirror like quality of mind that - that meditation allows you to have you know. Sort of reflects back on your experience. It doesn't take away your experience. And that's - part of what I feel - it doesn't some people think you know they come to meditation. They think they will erase their mind or something. LAUGHING. But here we actually give ourselves time to sort of - befriend all these aspects of our mind. Yeah. [00:08:59.11] DAVID: Becoming friends with the mind. [00:09:01.02] Elaine: Yeah right. [00:09:02.01] DAVID: That you know - that will always benefit you. [00:09:04.13] Elaine: Yeah. In all these different situations. So, itÕs - you know so I teach the M Div students and that's very much you know those moments that are very I guess you could say stressful or more - extreme in terms of grief or un- disruption, but also you know the meditation class provides the foundation for that really. [00:09:28.20] DAVID: And just so everyone knows the M Div program is the Master of Divinity program. [00:09:32.19] Elaine: Right, yeah, itÕs the one where we get halos. LAUGHING. No -- [00:09:38.01] DAVID: I haven't taken that class yet. LAUGHING. Well, it must be kind of interesting to go from an undergraduate kind of first timer interested in meditation person - then going to someone who this is their career path to be a chaplain and hold space and to be a spiritual light guidance for people. What is that like? Are they classes butted up against each other and you got to change who you are to - like how is that having the different types of students? [00:10:08.13] Elaine: Yeah, well the - obviously the graduate students need more - I guess you would say content or frameworks for how they might think of their career professionally. So, there is certain uh frameworks that we present to them in the M Div training which include a very - here we have a very deep what we call Buddhist theology training. [00:10:35.03] DAVID: Yeah, inspired. [00:10:35.23] Elaine: Yeah, well its actually here its Buddhist - it is in the Tibetan Buddhism. So, all M Div programs if you go to - you know Iliff which is in Denver - they're Christian so you will have study you know biblical texts and history of Christianity. So here we have a comparable study of - in depth study of Buddhism of endo-Tibetan Buddhism and sort of - not just the study of the history and sort of the basics sutras and teachings but also - the meditation practices that go along with that. So, that's the infrastructure there. Even though not all of our students are Buddhists - so not all of the students become Buddhists, but we hope that with this training they'll be able to discern you know what is the kind of ultimate truth or the core teachings that all religions present as well as you know what kind of practices, rituals of different traditions they might want to sort of embody because I feel the personal practice in chaplaincy work is so important in supporting you yourself. Like when I was a Buddhist chaplain in Philadelphia I was like often the only Buddhist there. So, I - I was the Buddhist chaplain on call so every once and a while I get a Buddhist - either Asian or Western Buddhist who wanted Buddhist support but most of the time I was supporting people from interfaith you know sort of I was the interfaith chaplain, so I would actually need to be curious and inquire about what kinds of religious traditions or none that might support each individual person. So, my Buddhist practice supported me in that journey you know. So, I might not always - you know sort of be teaching the dharma to them in the hospital, but I would be supporting myself in that journey of finding - I always thought it as finding well what is - like what we call the basic goodness or the (?) that exists in this person. How do the experience it? And, I would always just be curious about that. And sometimes it was through formal Christian practice. Sometimes it was about people's families and we'd hold hands and sometimes it was about talking about the football team you know the Eagles. [00:12:58.18] DAVID: The Eagles. Oh boy. [00:13:01.02] Elaine: But I mean that was meaningful to people. So just different things. So, you would - and then I felt by opening that conservation pathway I could actually you know really find you know have more genuine connection with them. You know I understood it - in an inner sense like that is my Buddhist practice but I would never say oh what's your basic goodness like or anything. I would just - sort of be curious about what warmed their heart and you could actually see that in the - uh they would open up -- [00:13:35.01] DAVID: I like hearing that. That is so good. [00:13:35.19] Elaine: Yeah. [00:13:38.00] DAVID: It warms my heart. It seems as though there is something within meditation that makes it more sustainable to be a chaplain because there is a lot of emotional give and take there - like you're holding some serious space for people transitioning. [00:13:54.23] Elaine: Yeah that's true. [00:13:55.15] DAVID: It just - it seems very hard. ItÕs not - itÕs not cut out for everybody. Not everyone can do that and so - as like a psychologist you're listening to people talk about their stuff all day. And you got stuff too and you're a person and we have psyches and we filter everything through our hearts and minds and it seems as though meditation has this rejuvenation sort of uh resetting kind of factor to it. [00:14:22.04] Elaine: Yeah, it allows us to reset and also just take a fresh start at any moment. Yeah. [00:14:29.23] DAVID: Be here now. [00:14:31.05] Elaine: Yeah, right. [00:14:32.16] DAVID: How about now? [00:14:33.23] Elaine: Now. Now. [00:14:35.08] DAVID: Now? Question. [00:14:37.03] Elaine: Yeah right. And I have to say in a health care setting things happen quickly sometimes. So, there is an agility to it. Yeah, itÕs not for everybody - itÕs true. [00:14:48.07] DAVID: Well good thing - good thing that we teach this here. You know we have this just I don't know helping everyone out in a sense to give them a good footing in the career paths that they want to do. [00:14:59.06] Elaine: Yeah, I really feel that meditation in general is just a good foundation for people. In whatever they choose to do. So that's why in a way you know going from the undergraduate introduction to meditation class to the M Div classes is similar. The M Div classes need a lot more academic rigor for lack of a better word, but that core is still there. That core is still important for us just to feel like we are whole people. At this time, itÕs such a struggle to feel like you're a whole person. I mean - I mean just - I still read the newspaper online and everything just to be bombarded with so many different things. And just to take - and needs and wants and there is a lot of need in this world right now too. So, I feel - we would want to be prepared to be able to offer what we have here to the world. But in a sane way. Not just throwing stuff at them. [00:15:59.20] DAVID: We should be training world chaplains. [00:16:02.06] Elaine: World chaplains. People who hold space for the world because the world is shifting all the time. You know what I mean? There is so many things going on to just - [00:16:11.22] Elaine: Yeah, one of our graduates - I wasn't here, but she does eco-chaplaincies. So, you know - and one of my students last semester talked about nature chaplaincy so - you know because there is so much changing in our physical world - and you know we looked at disaster chaplaincy. ItÕs kind of an emerging - itÕs a little different than psychology in that we're not so much therapy oriented, but we are walking with people through whatever they're experiencing usually in difficult situations. [00:16:45.16] DAVID: Less diagnosing and more holding space. [00:16:49.08] Elaine: Yeah. [00:16:49.08] DAVID: Compassionate space. Like skillful compassionate - there for you. [00:16:54.18] Elaine: Yeah, that's true. ItÕs not about the diagnosis as much at all. [00:16:58.15] DAVID: Oh well you have an issue with your shadows apparently. ELAINE LAUGHING [00:17:04.00] DAVID: You know like read this. [00:17:06.01] Elaine: Right, itÕs not about diagnosis as much, but you know it is about awareness so - but I found in my last semester I taught the pastoral care class and we talked about this a little - itÕs not so much that you have - you know itÕs almost fresh every time. In a way its - I experience it as very creative because you have to look at what people need from different dimensions, so it might be they need something from their religious tradition. They need the Lord's prayer or something or they might need a psychological understanding of grief. Or they might need - sort of an investigation of their social location in terms of diversity you know a social context - not a psychological one. So, it sort of encompasses all of these ways of looking at things. Or the lens - we say the lens' of pastoral care - like how can we care for someone in different lenses. So -- [00:18:01.08] DAVID: I like that. [00:18:01.08] Elaine: Yeah. [00:18:02.12] DAVID: So, how does one do that? [00:18:04.07] Elaine: Well, you have to be kind of -- you have to be kind of adaptive actually and on the spot a bit. You can't sort of both over reach or over project what you think might be happening, but you also need to be there to sort of - walk with people and potentially sort of surface things for them so it does have some of that kind of skill. But itÕs also navigating and just also being aware of your own blind spots and locations in all of that kind of thing. [00:18:35.02] DAVID: ItÕs a person who develops spirit in general because spirit is involved in all religions. All religions have spirit. Its kind like you don't have music without noise. So, if you understand noise you might get music. So, if - if one is developing the spirit and the sole and the heart - these are all things that everybody has. And so, you can relate in any way. I met a - I met some people who are Christian, and they wanted to say the Lord's prayer with me and itÕs not really something I do, but if you're going to give me a blessing I am into that. You know if you want to - if you want to bless me, I bless you right back. And that just feels really beautiful for someone to share their lens with me. And I have a lens that could feel that. So, I enjoy it. [00:19:19.17] Elaine: Yeah, that's part of the training. So, itÕs more than just being a Buddhist or - a Christian, but itÕs being able to have that - both flexibility but also confidence that they're not like taking away something from you. LAUGHS. [00:19:35.08] DAVID: I got a question for you. So, uh - at Naropa we're a Buddhist inspired university but we teach Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity. What is it like teaching those different things with a Buddhist inspired root? [00:19:53.23] Elaine: Yeah. [00:19:54.11] DAVID: You know because we're not a Christian school talking about Buddhism - we're a Buddhist inspired university talking about Christianity. We're talking about Judaism. [00:20:02.11] Elaine: Yeah, and so - so actually we were talking about the department here uh - before we started our talk and so we do have a rabbi here - Zvi. He just wrote this amazing book on -- [00:20:15.12] DAVID: He lives next door to me. [00:20:17.18] Elaine: Oh, ok so you know all about his -- [00:20:19.07] DAVID: I taught his son DJ lessons too. I love Zvi. He is very awesome. [00:20:23.02] Elaine: Yeah. But he's a traditional trained rabbi. Yeah and if you go into his office he's got all the books you know of the Torah on his wall. Uh we have Jason Hayes who is my colleague in the M Div program uh teaching a lot of the applied M Div courses who is contemplative Christian. Ben Williams just came on board as our Hindu scholar practitioner. So, he knows - so we have all of the religious represented in different faculty but they all have a contemplative approach. So that is part of - you know Jason does centering prayer. And I know Zvi does all these mystical Jewish practices. And Ben as well - and uh - Hinduism and Buddhism sort of are very close in terms of the family of teachings you know. Buddhism came out India - out of the Indian subcontinent. So, there is a lot of closeness there that we can actually mine in terms of similarities and differences. So, yeah, we have that - so students actually that come here are sometimes investigate all of these different - both the practices and also the teachings. We just had a great contemplative Islam intensive with Netenal who comes here. So, people can investigate both the teachings of those - you know what we would say the doctrine or the teachings of those different traditions, but also really experience the practices of them and sort of maybe investigate where the practices join. And you know in terms of actual ultimate experience and where they are different. Where their prayers, their rituals are different. So, I mean I love that investigation actually. [00:22:06.23] DAVID: Yeah, itÕs like making a diagram of each world religion and seeing where the overlap is. And itÕs usually you. [00:22:15.14] Elaine: Yeah. [00:22:16.15] DAVID: Or your spirit or the center is. [00:22:19.03] Elaine: Yeah, actually I was talking with Jason Hayes the other day and we were talking about how increasingly numbers of people are multi - what are called multiple faiths belongers. So, people don't actually land on just any one tradition and we have a lot of people like that here at Naropa already. You know. LAUGHS. Who are studying you know uh they are taking chanting. [00:22:43.00] DAVID: A little bit of this. A little bit of that. You know. What works for you? [00:22:46.09] Elaine: Right, and Tai Chi. They're taking Hindu. You know raga singing and Tai Chi and also, they are in my meditation class and so yeah so, itÕs just uh - actually really an amazing place to explore the real depth of those traditions. You know sort of the practices and how you can actually experience them personally. [00:23:08.17] DAVID: Do you feel like there is something wrong and or okay with borrowing different things from different world traditions, world religions because I am using yoga? I am using meditation. I am using Christian prayers. I am using the Torah you know the tree of life uh I am using fractal geometry with science and quantum physics. There is so much interdisciplinary play going on. Do you think that benefits you or -- like do you need to be a purist to be spirit? [00:23:40.20] Elaine: Yeah and that's actually a great kind of question because I feel a lot of our students, especially the undergrads, but even the students in the master divinity program go through kind of exploring different things but then actually to cultivate you know sort of real stability and depth. ItÕs really advisable to cultivate one practice or tradition. Otherwise it becomes too much information actually - too much shopping. But people have the opportunity to do that here. You know both here. And my hope is you know in our BA capstone project and in the projects, you know that people do for their Master of Divinity that you know they've landed on one sort of way of knowing how do you - and whether that way of knowing is just within one tradition or multiple but you want to be able to - cultivate that way of - epistemology really. That how can you take this through your life this way of knowing. [00:24:45.21] DAVID: I wonder if there is some sort of expedited spirit growth or development when you are trying on different kind of like trying different cups of tea you know what's your spirit tea like? What would you add in that? [00:24:59.19] Elaine: Yeah, some people think that - I don't know the jury is out on that but I feel that itÕs useful to sometimes you learn a lot by what you don't want. You know so you learn that doesn't really fit me. So, we have that opportunity here for people. [00:25:16.18] DAVID: Yeah and try it on and see if it works. And its usually meditation that just sticks with you. Because its applicable to everything. To just yourself. To your life. To your mind. To your heart. To your spirit. [00:25:31.15] Elaine: Yeah, and you can always have it with you in a way. You know your breath is always - we teach meditation with the breath. So, your breath is always with you. So, you can -- [00:25:41.03] DAVID: Can't get away from it. [00:25:42.04] Elaine: Can't get it away from it. [00:25:42.23] DAVID: I've tried. Like where are you going? Cool. So, when it comes to your classes what type of students show up? Do you notice a consistent sort of stereotype if I may say? Or - astrological sign or - just like pureness or - is there a similarity that the students show up as? [00:26:07.09] Elaine: Actually no. Especially... [00:26:10.13] DAVID: Good answer. [00:26:11.20] Elaine: And the M Div - the Master's Divinity program we have all kinds of students from multiple age ranges and some people might have - this is their second career. They've you know been a computer programmer and they'd like to do this as a second part of their life. We have people right out of college doing the program. We have people who have done yoga teaching on Maui or something and they come. And then actually this semester we have - three people from Asia who are applying to our program. So, that's the cultural kind of uh - diversity as well. So, itÕs actually quite diverse. [00:26:54.11] DAVID: Yeah, and we get foreign exchange students in this program as well? [00:26:57.09] Elaine: Yeah, and I've found uh actually I was telling this - we just had Chinese New Year, so I went out with like a few of the Naropa students who are also Chinese. [00:27:08.05] DAVID: What year is it? Yeah of the -- [00:27:10.22] Elaine: ItÕs the year of the earth dog. [00:27:13.02] DAVID: Earth dog! [00:27:13.22] Elaine: Yeah, so itÕs kind of a little more calmer because last year was the fire bird or rooster. [00:27:20.13] DAVID: Rooster - yeah. [00:27:22.04] Elaine: So, I think this year it will be a little more quiet, but uh -- [00:27:25.23] DAVID: We'll see about that. [00:27:27.02] Elaine: Yeah, right. Or at least earthy - maybe the earth will come in big chunks or something. But uh - all kinds of interesting people come to Naropa. And we have you know a diversity of faculty actually to sort of support them and itÕs actually a little different than going to like a dharma center or a university that is just - one tradition. Like I know some of the Buddhist inspired universities are run by like one lama, which is fine, but we have many things going on here. So, like when I did - we just a had a conference on aging and dying in December and I wanted to include all of the - sort of interspersed with all the kind of more podium type presentations. We had uh different kinds of contemplative practice. So, we had - mindfulness and then we had a compassion meditation. Then I had Jason do a centering prayer. And then - I asked Barbara Dilley one of our emeriti professors and she did a movement meditation which was really kind of slow, but also with moving the body. So, that's just an example of the kinds of ways we approached like what is contemplative practice which is almost like a co-on here. LAUGH. Like what is... [00:28:48.05] DAVID: What is contemplative practice? [00:28:50.15] Elaine: ItÕs like a co-on that just echoes and we can say oh itÕs this or that and -- [00:28:56.09] DAVID: It almost seems like you'd be anything relevant to you. As long as you're focusing your mind in the moment. You know? [00:29:03.20] Elaine: That's a good way. [00:29:04.15] DAVID: For instance, I play drums and I have to do this - like how many times have I swung a stick over the last years? But if I am in the moment of the stick swinging them there is the music - that is the magic. That's contemplative to me. [00:29:17.18] Elaine: Yeah, that's great actually and because that requires some kind of mindfulness and attention actually to do that. [00:29:23.03] DAVID: Like what are the body mechanics doing? How is the body built to move through this space? Heaven, earth and person - maybe in the middle. Oh yeah, we can go there. [00:29:33.10] Elaine: Yeah, so actually bringing that up the arts and everything and somatic practice - our Tai Chi and yoga programs - they teach us that. That they support us in that you know. [00:29:45.06] DAVID: Contemplative doesn't just have to be in the mind. It can be in the body as well. [00:29:48.17] Elaine: Yeah, for sure. Because mind and body are kind of connected. [00:29:52.16] DAVID: Just a little bit. [00:29:53.14] Elaine: Little bit. Even though -- maybe we're looking on our iPads and -- we're just there on our iPad. [00:30:02.18] DAVID: Interesting. Awesome. Well that's our time. And -- [00:30:06.17] Elaine: Ok, well this has been fun. Thanks Dave for stopping by. [00:30:09.14] DAVID: I really appreciate you speaking with us today. [00:30:11.18] Elaine: Ok. Thanks a lot. [00:30:13.17] DAVID: So, I'd like to thank Elaine Yuen to the podcast. She is the department chair of the Wisdom Traditions and also associate professor at Naropa University - so thank you. [00:30:23.18] Elaine: Ok, bye. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]