Lauren Ciovacco "A journey of discovering insanity" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:44.00] DAVID: Hello, I'd like to welcome Lauren Ciovacco to our podcast today. This guy is a graduate of the Contemplative Psychotherapy program in the graduate program. And he is also a really good friend of mine, so I am really excited to have him here. While we're both alums of Naropa - and it just feels really nice to kind of support him, his journey, and I just like to welcome you here today. [00:01:07.10] LAUREN: Yeah, thank you so much David. [00:01:10.07] DAVID: Do you want to give us a little - where you were before that kind of like tell us your journey to Naropa? Who you are and all that. [00:01:17.20] LAUREN: For sure. [00:01:19.00] DAVID: And a little bit about ya. [00:01:19.22] LAUREN: I just - yeah, I want to name right off the bat it feels like such a gift to be able to sit here with you and - and really talk about you know - who I've been, where I've come, the process that got me to this point. I did my undergrad at Purdue University. Did it in psychology. At that time, I was studying psychology. I was working as a bartender paying my way through college. You know doing it part time here and there. Uh really drawn to psychology. Something about understanding the mind and what made people tick. What made me tick was a big part of that process. I think the journey towards psychology started around 2008. Uh when I got - I got arrested for uh - actually a felony - it was a good - I got arrested for actually punching a cop and anybody listening out there I highly suggest not doing that. It was a drinking night which - which adds a lot to the story as it goes. [00:02:11.23] DAVID: Not many stories start like this. [00:02:13.11] LAUREN: And I think it really explained how I got to this point. Because as I was sitting in a jail cell at that time - I was sitting there and I recognized if I didn't do something with my anger - I was going to end up dead or in jail. I mean - and I - like I said I had been studying psychology - but I was also studying sociology, philosophy, religion and the weirdest thing - as I sat in that jail cell a quote that I remember reading from some Buddhist book popped into my head. And it was, anger is like a hot stone. You want to throw it at somebody, but you get burned in the process. And something about - when that popped into my head it was the most true - the truest thing I had ever heard about anger. And it came out of Buddhism. So, when I got out of the jail cell I started studying Buddhism. I mean reading it hard. I started reading Brad Warner, Jack Kornfield uh Sharon Salisbury, any Buddhist book that I could grab. Hardcore Zen by Brad Warner was really that first touch of like oh this is what - this is what I want. But up until that point it was a total intellectual pursuit. It was uh - Buddhism was something outside of myself. It was a thought. Oh, those ideas are great. I love those. They attract me. [00:03:24.14] DAVID: ItÕs like seasoning almost. It wasn't nutrients just yet. [00:03:27.18] LAUREN: Yeah, exactly. And it was something that I loved talking about - LAUGHS - but when it came to actually sitting down that just wasn't happening. But you know I - as I was saying - doing all this reading and I was reading Wise Heart by Jack Kornfield and I believe itÕs in the preface where he names something about at Naropa Institute. And -- [00:03:48.02] DAVID: Oh, that little thing. [00:03:48.19] LAUREN: Yeah, and I was like - I was like what's this. And so, I started Googling and I found out - man there is a school here in Boulder, Colorado where I can study Buddhism and psychology, and these were like my two primary interests. And, the other thing that really attracted me was that the master's program of contemplative psychotherapy - they make you go on meditation retreats. And I say make you go on because at that point in my life when I was reading about this I needed somebody to make me go sit down. I needed something where it was a requirement. Now clearly, you know we're always making choices and this was a choice of mine, but I needed some kind of external system saying like sit down. And so, I applied to Naropa. Got accepted. Came out here and started the program and I'd say that first meditation retreats we went on and we do two meditation retreats every semester. That is just part of our program. [00:04:40.10] DAVID: Is that Breezes Simplicity Retreats? [00:04:43.23] LAUREN: The My Tree Awareness -- [00:04:44.18] DAVID: The My Tree - ok. Yes. [00:04:46.05] LAUREN: The My Tree retreats. And so, the first day - now I thought that Naropa was going to stair step me into meditation. I thought it was going to be like oh we're going to do 30 minutes here. We're going to do an hour here. No, the first day on that retreat we sat for 7 hours. [00:05:00.07] DAVID: Oh boy. [00:05:00.17] LAUREN: LAUGHS. So, my first - my first meditation retreat ever - my first day all I did for 7 hours was fantasize about how the hell I could off that mountain. LAUGHS [00:05:10.11] DAVID: Yeah, its weird what the mind will do when it has to sit still. [00:05:13.04] LAUREN: Talk about the wisdom of no escape too because what I realized is there is no way off this mountain. I can't hitch hike out of here. LAUGHS. But I'd say it was the second day that I realized never in my life had someone offered me the opportunity to sit with myself with no other obligations. All I had to do was sit there. And so, the second day - something - something shifted. Something said all right I'm going to see what happens. And - in that space - I began to actually - something shifted. Because up until that point, every time I had seen space I filled it up immediately. I did whatever I could to distract from anything that would be - that would arise internally. My focus was always external. That was really I'd say the beginning of my Naropa journey was that second day. [00:06:07.01] DAVID: ItÕs really interesting too that's how you jumped into it. [00:06:09.09] LAUREN: Yeah! [00:06:10.08] DAVID: You had to jump into a 7-hour sitting with yourself and analyzing your mind, cleaning - spring cleaning you know -- wow! [00:06:17.22] LAUREN: It was quite a start change too because you know coming out of Purdue uh Purdue is a massive science school. I mean my bachelor's is a bachelor of science. You know psychology is a science. We - research methods and research and research. So, coming you know and I was an atheist at the time at Purdue. Coming to Naropa here I was in a program that was relating to experience through a totally different language. Through a different perspective. You know different metaphors. And it really - oh those first few weeks, months, year at Naropa - it really tweaked me. I mean there were words that they were using energy - uh that I was like what the hell is that? [00:06:59.04] DAVID: Container. [00:06:59.23] LAUREN: Container. Resonance. Uh - [00:07:03.00] DAVID: Stillness. [00:07:04.06] LAUREN: Stillness. And so, it really was a shock to the system, but I believe that actually coming up against that - was actually so powerful because I got to see where the intersection of these two world views met. And I think that that's actually where itÕs the most powerful. I mean like Trungpa has said - Naropa is what happens when East meets West and sparks will fly. I mean I think itÕs really important to name sparks will fly. This is not East meets West and itÕs a beautiful just ah resolution. There is tension. [00:07:33.19] DAVID: And just so people know Trungpa is the founder of Naropa University. [00:07:37.10] LAUREN: Yeah. And the contemplative program really arose directly out of him. It was one of the first programs at Naropa and came out of his direct lineage and it - that was actually one of the things that was so incredible about these My Tree retreats was - I got to sit with professor who directly sat with Trungpa. [00:07:55.20] DAVID: Yeah, the lineage isn't as long. It doesn't seem so far away - in some 1700s. It was fairly recent. [00:08:02.17] LAUREN: I would have professors telling me stories of like this time with Trungpa or the time Trungpa said this and it made it feel so alive to me. You know it wasn't - it wasn't hollow readings of like, so some guy somewhere said this - it was - you know I sat with this man and this is what he offered me. I am going to offer it to you and you can see what it does. [00:08:22.05] DAVID: Yeah that sounds beautiful. [00:08:23.21] LAUREN: You know Naropa has a tagline - transform yourself, transform the world. [00:08:29.00] DAVID: That is our motto. [00:08:29.17] LAUREN: Yeah and man that is a good motto! Because - [00:08:34.03] DAVID: It will get you. [00:08:35.17] LAUREN: I remember it was after the first year I came back - and uh - I was actually upset with my professors. Because I was like - what did you all do? Like whatever you offered me I see the world in a way now - and the reason I was upset is because I saw the world in its fullness. There were things I saw now - that you know when I came to Naropa, I was sunshines and rainbow. It was the world is beautiful and the world is great and like I am going to study Buddhism and I'm going to be one and it was like you know very absolute kind of thinking. But - Naropa gave me a chance to actually stop, pause, and feel -- the suffering that is here too. There is joy, there is life, there is beauty and there is pain. And, that my experience was constantly trying to run from the pain. Uh - but that when I sat at those meditation retreats I started seeing like oh this is part of it too. Uh - [00:09:32.23] DAVID: Yes. [00:09:33.01] LAUREN: And my entire life you know for anybody listen to this - I really hope that this resonates in some way because I think itÕs an experience many of us have but don't know how to describe. My entire life I would have this feeling - and it generally would originate in my stomach. But it was like an emptiness and even putting words on it is going to feel really contrived, but I could describe it as despair or dread or it was almost the feeling as if I am like where I am supposed to be. That something is not quite right. And, again itÕs a felt experience of putting words to makes really difficult, but when I was at my first retreat that exact feeling popped up. That like sematic sensation that like oh something is not right. What was interesting is that I had a different relationship to it and that was I was actually exactly where I was supposed to be. That this feeling wasn't wrong. It wasn't bad. There was no problem. It was like - to use the - the Naropa language I had a container for the experience. [00:10:34.12] DAVID: Yeah, you had a same feeling, different approach. You had some technique, you had some skill, you had a different lens in which you were using or looking through to - channel that emotion or feeling through a different way. But the feeling hasn't changed. [00:10:49.11] LAUREN: The feeling hasn't changed. No, and itÕs interesting because it will still pop up every now and again - but itÕs almost like hey old friend. Before it was oh - god - [00:10:59.19] DAVID: I see you. [00:11:00.10] LAUREN: Yeah. [00:11:01.20] DAVID: What was your experience like at this moment? You are in the classes. You're past your first retreat. You're kind of doing your curriculum. Your education and you're in the contemplative model like how has the contemplative model shaped your - ability to use the psychotherapy that you were being trained to do. [00:11:23.17] LAUREN: I'd say the first thing right off the bat is Naropa taught me to question everything. I mean truly deconstruct it. There were so many ideas and theories and models that I came into Naropa with that - when we sat in that circle in those classrooms. We deconstructed it. We started from like - base experience. Like just right off the bat, gut level in your world - how does this arise? I remember when I was doing a psychopathology class - here we are you know we're going to talk about abnormal psych is the class. Everybody loves taking an undergrad right? Here we were in psychopathology and I am thinking oh we're going to get into all the diagnosis and all the disorders and day one - the question was what is mental health. Like if we're going to define pathology - right off the bat we have to say what are we moving people towards. And that question alone - is hard enough to answer. And I remember my professor brought a - a plant - and I actually use this in presentations that I do now, but he brought in a plant that was wilting and it looked like it was dying, and he said now looking at this plant - what can you tell me about it? And everybody started answering things like well - you know maybe itÕs not getting enough water or its not getting enough sunlight. [00:12:41.16] DAVID: Yeah, nutrients in the soil. The pot is too small. [00:12:44.19] LAUREN: Yeah, exactly. And after we all gave these types of answers, our professor reflected to us you know one of the things I noticed nobody in here said was that itÕs a bad plant. Nobody said it was - broken. Everybody in here believed on some level that if this plant were provided the right environment or nutrients, the right caregivers that it would be fine. Nobody doubted its basic plantness. [00:13:11.13] DAVID: Yeah. [00:13:12.01] LAUREN: And, that lesson right there - I mean if - if I want to talk about the quintessential Naropa experience - that moment - it was like why did we do that to ourselves? What I was offered while I was in the contemplative program was basic goodness brilliant sanity. And when I say brilliant sanity - what's so cool about Buddhist psychology is we orient from the basic plantness level of the human experience. We orient from like nothing is wrong with you. The Suzuki Roshi quote, you're perfect just the way you are and you could use a little improvement - that's my entire therapeutic approach and that's what I gained through the program. Was that I don't have to doubt your inherent dignity wisdom and autonomy. ItÕs there. So, when I sit with somebody - I am not doing any healing - all I'm reflecting is what's already there so that they can see it. Uh, but the healing is already in them. There is a natural healing intelligence that moves through each one of us and you can access it at any time if you choose. And so, I'd say that that right there - [00:14:18.13] DAVID: It sounds like the accessing is where the key lies to the healing or if its healing at all - almost itÕs just looking at it a different way. Everything that is external is just information until you internalize it. And the skills to internalize it are where the - things come up that we are working on. Its - itÕs the internalizing skills that we need to work on. [00:14:42.20] LAUREN: Yeah, and I am so glad - I mean the internalizing skills that you named - uh Naropa offered me a process and a technique. They didn't say here's the truth. They said hey here is some ideas we have. Here is a process. You engage it. Let's see what you come up with and -- [00:15:01.08] DAVID: And itÕs true to you! ItÕs a unique trueness because all truths aren't true until they are true to your uniqueness. [00:15:08.16] LAUREN: Exactly. And what I love about Naropa and this is an experience I had at Naropa that I never had in any other type of my academic career was I had professors offer me - ideas - teachings and then they said now you check those out in your own experience. Like I am not saying I am right. You check it out. You tell me if it works for you. These were teachers that when I'd ask questions they'd say I'm not sure what the answer is. What do you think? Right, they always put it back to me and it was a collaborative relationship. It was never a top down I am teacher, your student. It was hey we're both students in some way. You know I might have a bit more experience and knowledge in this one area, but let's co-create. Let's see what we can come up with. [00:15:48.18] DAVID: Yeah, the actual teachers look at you as a wise person walking into the classroom sharing this space. And even the setting of the classroom is very inviting. Like we all bow in. We set the container as we like to say. We also sit in circles. Like some people are sitting on the floor chilling drinking their tea or coffee or whatever and some people are sitting in chairs. Its - we are invited to show up how we want and receive the information that feels most comfortable to us, which actually allows us to dive deeper into the academics. [00:16:17.00] LAUREN: Yeah, I am glad you named that piece about sitting in chairs in that circle too because - I'd say the first few months at Naropa I chose to sit in a chair in those circles simply because that was how I oriented to academics and that was also how I felt safe. And, I wouldn't have known that at that time, but it gave me a like ok I can be in this space and nobody ever judged that or criticized that or told me I needed to show up differently. [00:16:40.00] DAVID: ItÕs like how many classes have you walked in with seeing some zafu's and meditation cushions in the corner where you just like yeah just grab one of those. Just sit where you need to. [00:16:48.09] LAUREN: Just sit where you need to. Yeah, I mean itÕs a start where you are. I mean to borrow Pima's language there was no expectation that I needed to be a certain way. It was that this is where you are at. Not where we are heading. [00:17:02.06] DAVID: Yeah, beautiful. I'd love to explore a little bit. So, you wrote - what was it your thesis paper? [00:17:08.01] LAUREN: Uh yeah so, my master's paper for graduate -- [00:17:10.11] DAVID: So, you wrote a master's paper and apparently its getting some attention and I want to explore this a little bit. So, can you tell me about this and what itÕs about. What you are writing about? What influenced you to write about that? And, where is it going? [00:17:22.19] LAUREN: Yeah. I am so glad you invited me to speak on that because uh - you know everything that we've already spoke of really is what lead to the creation of this uh paper. My final year of Naropa you know we do our internship and we have to write our master's paper. That is like the big culmination paper of like your work. So, I was doing my internship in the court ordered model. So, people who had gotten DUI's, domestic violence - basically any offender type court situation - that the court then said all right you need to go to therapy. I was running those groups and doing that individual counseling. But mainly working with addiction. So, like I said you know first day of that psychopathology class we were asked well what is mental health? While I was doing this internship I started asking the question what is addiction? And when I looked at the research - when I looked at like what everybody was saying about it - I realized that there were a lot of preconceived notions. A lot of so called experts just riffing on what they thought addiction was without actually ever defining a lot of these aspects of it. You know I thought I was going to flip open a book and find a nice neat definition of addiction. You don't. I thought I was going to flip open a book and find a nice neat definition of drug. You don't. A lot of the addiction literature will just use these words without actually ever defining them. And so, so what I did is I - I started reading everything I could about addiction. I started looking at it through my own experience. Again, this Naropa technique that was offered. I started looking at the ways in which I addict. You know, I've struggled with alcohol. You know this story started off with being in a jail cell. You know and that was an alcohol driven thing. This story started with anger. Anger was an addiction of mine. And so, I begin to look at what - what goes on internally and so - the year of study and the year of research lead to what I call the sanity of addiction view. And, this view - is...what I was finding as I was sitting with others - letting go of my like really sitting in a place of uncertainty - I am sitting with a client as they talk about their experience. I'd let go of everything I thought I knew and just listen. And time and time again what I heard - was I heard people trying to escape their pain. I mean I'd hear - stories of abuse, stories of neglect. Stories of trauma. Things that these people went through when they were younger that we're such painful experiences is that the mind needed in some way to get away from it. And then when I looked at my experiences it was true for me. There were so many states - internal states, internal feelings, internal thoughts, internal emotions that I couldn't regulate. That they were so painful and not only that they were so painful its nobody ever taught me how to be with them. You know prior to coming to Naropa - like I said I was sunshine and rainbows and that was only because - pain, grief, loneliness, sadness, shame were so painful to sit with. I had to move away. I had to be like itÕs all good! Positive thinking - yeah like. And so, what I began to conceptualize is that addiction is not so much a pathology as it is a natural aspect of the human experience. That in some way every one of us can relate to this. Because when I really got down to it - Buddha was the original addictions counselor. He said, if you crave or you grasp, or you attach to anything outside yourself you're going to cause yourself more pain. You know that first noble truth of like you know our life - suffering is inevitable. ItÕs going to happen. And what, I think -- [00:21:10.14] DAVID: Its facts. [00:21:11.15] LAUREN: Right, like I'd love to meet the person who is like oh no I have never experienced that. I mean each one of us is going to have to go through it. But what's interesting about the human experience is that we try to create a world where everything is up. We don't - there is these things called the 8 worldly dharmas. ItÕs a Praise, Blame, Honor, Shame, Pleasure, Pain, Gain Loss. Right and these are -- [00:21:36.09] DAVID: It sounds like ying and yang. [00:21:36.23] LAUREN: Yeah and all of them are like inseparable from each other. You can not know pleasure without pain, but yet the human experience is constantly trying to create a world where itÕs all up. I want all the pleasure. I want all the good stuff. [00:21:50.04] DAVID: Yeah. And probably having all the pleasure causes more pain. [00:21:54.13] LAUREN: Exactly, right because then what happens is we create a world where because we've moved so much to the pleasure states - that when anything painful starts to arise we really don't even know what to do with it. Because all of our - all of our energy has been moving away from it. We don't know how to stop and stay with it. We don't - and I think that's where Naropa gave me a chance to you know when you're sitting in a room - with nothing to do except be with yourself - things start to arise. Anger would arise. Loneliness would arise. Sensations of discomfort in my body. [00:22:29.23] DAVID: The thing you didn't know you were holding onto years and years ago will arise. [00:22:35.00] LAUREN: And itÕs interesting because I would have this experience where I would be sitting there in meditation and - and all these things would be going on that we're so intense and so heavy and then I'd have a moment of - dude, you're just sitting in a room. Like - like you're just sitting here. And - and yeah some of these things that I had spent a lifetime of avoiding like grief for example would arise in my system and I saw it actually wasn't a problem. So that's where the sanity of addiction view and what I work with clients on is actually how do we tolerate these states that we spend most of our time running from. Because if there is nothing to run from - there is nothing to medicate away. [00:23:12.16] DAVID: Yeah and so with this paper you actually were published? [00:23:15.16] LAUREN: Yes, I was -- [00:23:16.13] DAVID: Am I saying that correctly? [00:23:17.03] LAUREN: Yeah, I was published. I was published in the Journal of Humanistic Psychology. Yeah this was - you know, and it was - the title of the paper was, The Sanity of Addiction: Humanistic and Contemplative Reflections on the Surgeon General's Report on Addiction. [00:23:34.08] DAVID: Nice. [00:23:35.08] LAUREN: So, what was cool about it is the paper I wrote for the end of Naropa was Sanity of Addiction the Human Relationship to Substances Through a Buddhist Lens. But, when - but when I wrote the paper for the journal of Humanistic Psychology we uh - we shortened it quite a bit. Because you know I think the paper I wrote for Naropa was in the 40 page range. The one for the journal is I think you know 10 to 12 - and I co-authored with Dr. Shannon Hughes over at CSU. She read it. She read the original paper and she was actually the one who was like do you want get this published? And, in my mind I was like - is that even - is that even possible. [00:24:09.17] DAVID: This is just my exit paper. [00:24:11.15] LAUREN: Yeah, I am like I think itÕs a great idea, but you do too. Because there is this thing that can happen to anybody to been to Boulder or been to Naropa like we can get into a little bit of a bubble here where I had this thought of like this seems like a great idea to me that addiction is the same response to suffering in the world, but is the outside world going to actually agree? And, when the editor of the psychology journal messaged me back and said they were excited to publish it - I was - I was like you know I got the peer review. I received the validation of the outside academic community of like hey you know what this is actually a great idea. [00:24:49.02] DAVID: Confirming all the work and research that you have in doing the - the sitting with yourself. The self analyzing, the research, the interest -- [00:24:56.16] LAUREN: Yeah, I am glad you named that self uh analyzing piece because you know when medical doctors go to school they get to practice their skills on a cadaver. When psychotherapists go to school we are the cadavers. We poke and proud at ourselves. You know we turn it. We hold it out. We move it through. ItÕs a really uncomfortable process. I sometimes think people interested in psychotherapy have to have a little bit of masochism in them. A little bit of like - hmmm like I want to get into the grossness. But yeah so, the paper in the journal became a response to uh the surgeon general's report. That's how we framed the conversation so that it could really be targeted. The surgeon general board in 21016 came out and said that addiction is a disease. Which is phenomenal, and I really do want to name this - them naming it as a disease is huge in destigmatizing addiction. Uh, the idea of addiction being a moral failing I think causes a lot of harm because it comes from a place of harshness right. It really lacks compassion. The idea that addiction is a disease I think integrates compassion. But actually leaves out some of the insight that we have from some of our research. And so, what we - [00:26:12.05] DAVID: They are like almost there. [00:26:13.03] LAUREN: Yeah, almost there - and actually this is - this is another - this is another Naropa skill that I gained through my experience that I think really lends myself to this conversation is that - the two predominant cultural narratives we have right now is that addiction is on one side of moral failing. That you have a choice and you should just chose not to do addiction. And then, on the other side we have like what the surgeon general said that itÕs a disease state. That I think has compassion but - they're two polarities and what me as a Naropa trained therapist can do is I can hold the paradox. I can actually hold that itÕs both. That - and this is how I'll explain this is that - in every moment you have a choice. And you have a choice to continue doing the - unconscious habitual habits and strategies you've done your whole life that have kept you safe or to move into a new place. And right, that's prefrontal kind of thinking. That's all top right. And so, the moral models is right in some ways. We do have a choice. But, what we need to recognize with addiction or with any habitual pattern, right, with any cycle of some czara we have to recognize that that choice necessitates going into the darkest most terrifying places of our soul. Right, itÕs not just hey I chose not to do that opioid. Its hey you're not going to do that and that means we're going to have to relate with the pain that is lived in you your whole life that you've been avoiding your whole life. And that's an easy decision. So, what I think my model does is it integrates both wisdom and compassion. The knowledge of yeah you have a choice and the compassion of like homey this is going to be a hard choice. [00:27:59.06] DAVID: The idea of holding paradox sounds really nice because you are not so concrete idea'd into something because you can be fluid, and everyone is unique and sometimes they might fit over there or over here or somewhere in the middle and you get to analyze that. You get to experience that. [00:28:15.19] LAUREN: And I just want to name too that like I think this conversation of moral failing disease state - this is a conversation we've been having forever. Is it free will or is it determinism. And as a Buddhist and I don't even often identify in that way but through y Buddhist training - I can hold that itÕs both. We have a lower brain that is very determinate - deterministic and an upper brain that loves choice. Wants to be something different. [00:28:41.11] DAVID: That's so great. So, we only got a couple minutes left, but I did want to touch with Nowak society. So, this is something that I don't even want to say it. I'll let you say it. So, we got a couple minutes. Just let us know what you're doing now so moving forward you're doing some really good work. I want to highlight this. [00:28:56.12] LAUREN: So, I will just name it the sanity of addiction. I am presenting a 50 minute talk at the 11th annual conference of Humanistic Psychology that's going to be at Nolanda at Naropa's campus in March. [00:29:08.19] DAVID: Awesome. [00:29:09.10] LAUREN: Yeah, and its sanity -- [00:29:10.11] DAVID: 2018? [00:29:12.03] LAUREN: Yep, 2018. Sanity of Addiction: A Perspective Born of Wisdom and Compassion. So that's exciting. The Nowak society - this is a 501c3 that me and actually like 7 other graduates of Naropa started and itÕs a beautiful organization because you can see it so born out of what Naropa offered us. The mission of the Nowak society is to educate and inform and support individuals and communities in coming into safe and informed relationships with themselves, others, and the world we live in. And the substances that we chose to engage with. This work really rose out of - kind of a harm reduction place similar to like Dance Safe or Zendo Project - [00:29:54.01] DAVID: And Dance Safe is a community of people who make sure when you're at a musical festival, a rave, an event - something that may have substances there. They are there to hold space as a physical space, a mental space, and they can test your sub - is that correct? [00:30:14.05] LAUREN: Yeah no I mean you nailed it. I think Dance Safe and like Zendo Project are organizations that come from the standpoint of the drug war has not worked. You know we've been having this war on drugs for God knows how long. And it hasn't change juice. Actually, rates are climbing at an alarming rate. The number one cause of deaths in this country currently is opioids. And 80% of those people started on prescription opioids. So, what we're doing is we're reframing the conversation of we know people are going to use - how do we give them safe information, good skills so that if you are going to make this decision its informed. Uh, and so this is where Nowak Society you know out of my like Sanity of Addiction ideas and then the group think of how to relate with these things - we came up with this idea of refining relationship - the drugs themselves are not good or bad and not even just drugs, but anything outside of yourself that you might use to regulate with - has the potential to cause you harm. So, we began to say ok as an organization let's refine relationship. Uh we're connected to everything. We're in relationship with everything, but most of us don't know how to do it. [00:31:20.12] DAVID: And this could actually be a relationship with a person too. [00:31:24.00] LAUREN: Oh yes. [00:31:25.17] DAVID: Its beyond substances. It can be a relationship with a person. With a family. Anything like that. [00:31:31.14] LAUREN: I'll go ahead and aim at anything that you love. Anything that you care about. Anything that brings you job has the potential to become something that hurts you and what I mean by that is that every time I look into my wife's eyes - you know we've been together 8 years. There is no person I love more than my wife. Every time I look into her eyes there is a small part of me that has to recognize one day I am going to have to let her go. There is a sadness that comes with how much I love her. [00:31:58.17] DAVID: And mortality. [00:31:59.01] LAUREN: And I name that not to be dark but to name the truth of my experience that itÕs both and so this is where know the relationship to drugs is the same exact thing. The relationship to maybe you love running and working out. I've worked with clients who have been in a place where they work out way too much. And now that's causing them harm. [00:32:18.02] DAVID: ItÕs really interesting like what can cause you harm. What can cause you happiness. [00:32:22.10] LAUREN: And what's beautiful about the Nowak Society too is we're approaching it from an open source. All these skills they're available to everybody. Nobody owns them. ItÕs going to be grass roots pure support models of healing that we don't need to wait on anybody outside of ourselves to save us. We can do it for each other. And in this country where healthcare is starting to be cut where people don't know where they are getting the funding for medications psycho farms - we don't need to wait on them. We can do it for each other. [00:32:48.12] DAVID: Yeah, wow this is all beautiful information. Uh that is our time for now. But, I really appreciate you speaking with us today. You're just like a ball of light you know and you're actually like a really good friend of mine and itÕs just such a pleasure to hear you speak about your passions and your goals and I can't wait to see you break out into the future and just do this amazing work and I just see so many good things coming out of it. So, thank you for speaking with us today on the podcast. [00:33:12.22] LAUREN: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I love talking about this because its - itÕs my life and itÕs my passion. Naropa doesn't just give you something to talk about out there. You have to walk the walk. And it becomes your life. [00:33:26.04] DAVID: Awesome thank you. [00:33:27.08] LAUREN: LAUGHING. Thank you. [00:33:28.08] DAVID: So, I'd like to thank Lauren Ciavacco today for speaking with us on the podcast. He is a - Naropa graduate of the Contemplative Psychotherapy program. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]