Ian Wickramasekera Hypnosis Change Your Mind Change Reality [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] DAVID: Hello, today I'd like to welcome Dr. Ian Wickramasekera to the podcast. Ian is a core faculty member in the mindfulness based transpersonal counseling program and it is a pleasure to be speaking with you today. So, thank you for coming. IAN: Oh, thank you so much for having me on. DAVID: How are you doing? IAN: I'm doing very good. So nice to see you again. DAVID: You're such a beautiful spirit. I love that we're just going to have this like awesome conversation. IAN: I know. Yeah, I totally knew that being with you was just a good energy and you reflect that so much. So, thank you. DAVID: Awesome. I've been trying to get you on the podcast for like a year. IAN: Oh! DAVID: He's been so busy it's hard sometimes. IAN: Oh, that's a true. Yeah. DAVID: Okay, so to get started -- tell me a bit about yourself. Like how did you find Naropa? Tell me about your educational process because I know you have a couple degrees and some things. Can you just talk about your journey? IAN: Yeah, I -- I got here to Naropa in 2015, but I had already wanted to be at Naropa for over 20 years. And I grew up with a really interesting heritage. I have a Catholic and Buddhist roots. And so, in my family we are always very interested in things because my family is Sri Lankan and Scottish heritage. DAVID: Whoa! IAN: Yeah, we celebrate all kinds of holidays! DAVID: That's so cool. IAN: You know and we like fun things. DAVID: Magic. IAN: Right. It's very magical family for sure. So, we were taught to respect all of the religious traditions of Christianity and Buddhism. And so, I grew up very interested in understanding Buddhist thought and Buddhist practice. And also, very interested in prayer from the Catholic side of things. And very interested in the mysteries of spirituality and what they can be used for in this life. And so, as I grew up, I started to study Buddhism very seriously at the same time that I was taking teachings and psychology -- I was taking trainings in Advanced Buddhist meditation in the Tibetan karma kagyu tradition of which Trungpa Rinpoche is a representative and also the Nyingma. So, I thought, oh gosh, I heard about this place called Naropa. This was like 1995. I had been studying in the Shambala tradition since 1990 and in '95 my very dear meditation teacher Robin Kornman who was one of the founding members of the Nalanda translation committee -- DAVID: Oh wow. IAN: Tricked me into doing -- LAUGHS -- a meditation retreat. DAVID: He tricked you? IAN: He tricked me. Yeah, he totally. DAVID: You got to trick most people for meditation retreats maybe. IAN: Right? There's always some level of. but this guy was a real rascal. He had been a cook for Trungpa, and he had a lot of his -- you know crazy wisdom -- you know he was a beautiful loving man. And so, he comes to me one day and he says, hey Ian I hear that there's a special program going on at Shambala Mountain Center -- you ever been there? And itÕs like oh no, but I can't afford to do that. And he goes oh now itÕs a special. ItÕs a special. You just fill out the application and you give me 108 dollars and that's all it's going to cost. And I was like really? I could afford to do that. So, then I gave him the application and he said you can make the check out to me. And I was like, oh well okay whatever. I give him a check for 108 dollars. And it took me five years to realize that actually he had just paid for my fee. DAVID: He's just wanted you go. IAN: He just wanted me to go. He was a very loving man. And I honestly couldn't have afforded it at that time -- very poor as a graduate student. But I did have the time and he was such a kind man that he tricked me into going on my first time. So then as I studied meditation deeper, deeper, deeper -- than at the same time really advancing as an academic in the hypnosis and neuroscience community learning all about the mysteries of how the mind works through studying its effect on, I think processes like meditation and hypnosis. And in particular how our experience of both meditation and hypnosis can really reveal a lot about our shared experience of reality through empathy and how easily beautiful it is. Like just get this moment where like really talking and getting into one another. And I can kind of forget about all this room around -- and for those of you who are listening now it's like you listen to -- we go deeper into what we're talking about -- you can kind of forget like where you're sitting, and you may even wish to think you're sitting somewhere else. DAVID: Transported. IAN: Right? And there's just everything about that. Our empathy can take us to another place and also really guide us to a deeper understanding of who we are as we empathize with our self in the meditative process and really look at all that we are and not just who we generally put ourselves out there. So -- DAVID: You sound like a transpersonal counselor all the sudden. IAN: Totally. I do believe thoroughly that there is a deeper nature of mind that we can all experience. And I learned this both through my training as a transpersonal psychologist and health psychologist. I love to help people who have tremendous medical problems, like with chronic pain, with headaches and back pain, bowel syndrome -- very strange psycho physiological disorders like sometimes people faint. There's this thing called vasovagal syncope, strange sleep disorders -- like people might get up in the middle of the night and do things -- like make -- my first person used to eat raw hamburger in the middle of the night and then wake up and just eat raw hamburger. LAUGHS. And wake up in the morning with this weird stuff on their teeth. So, people with all kinds of strange medical disorders. I really love to help them to get freedom from them -- using the deep potential we can access with hypnosis and meditation. And then at the same time I've been pursuing this from the traditional Tibetan lineages. I belong to the practice in the Shambala lineage and the karma Kagyu and the Nyingma. And also, I study with the (?) in the Nyingma lineage. And then in the (?) lineage of Tibet -- I studied the most in the (?) tradition of the (?) and I study with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. And all of these wonderful people -- they just really poured into me all their insights into the nature of mind. And so, I'm absolutely convinced and have experienced that actually we do have a deeper potential that we don't even realize. It's just right there all the time -- like this seems like we're ordinary beings and we are. But beneath that ordinary reality is a lot of power and magic to transform ourselves and be more loving and helpful. DAVID: Yeah, we have the availability to tap into something deeper than what we operate from. IAN: Right. That's right it's always there. Even when you feel like oh I'm having this is such a bad day and I can do nothing about it, but still that deeper potential is just like the sun in the sky -- it's always there -- only clouds go across occasionally and you say oh my life sucks -- and I'm sorry about swearing, but this is how you think it, right? You think this really is bad. I don't like this, and these are just clouds going over your deeper potential DAVID: Yeah. What is the internal weather at this moment for us? You know -- IAN: Right, exactly. DAVID: And being able to understand that it's a moment and it will pass. IAN: It will pass. DAVID: But sometimes like those moments are rough and it's hard -- it's hard to deal with that it's hard to realize the sun is always above the clouds. But right now, we're getting rained on. You know I mean? There's this -- IAN: Very true. And this is the kind of humility I think that I've really enjoyed through that -- that actually those moments are also useful in the mystical tradition they call this via negativa. And so, these -- DAVID: Please explain. IAN: Positiva which means to enrich through the -- maybe doing prayers and mantras and really deepening one's relationship with your understanding of what the deeper nature of our potential is. So that could be a theistic thing for those who follow these traditions, or it could be like much more like I'm going to relate to my love very deeply -- in a more humanistic way. Then there's via negativa, which is to removing things. So, this is very difficult for most of us to like you know if you go through a divorce then you have to accept this relationship is over. And many people have very -- a lot of difficulty with this. And for a very understandable reason. Someone that you love is now gone and you're mourning this. And so actually though, in these moments when we strip away aspects of what we think are deep parts of our self -- as painful as it is it's always an invitation to plant some new seed. And new things come into your life randomly when you use via negativa as a pathway to enrichment. We like the positiva, but the negativa is just as good strangely enough. Sometimes it's actually better. DAVID: I feel like sometimes there's more of an acceleration in the learning process or dealing with -- but letting go is so hard sometimes that you don't feel like you are accelerating. IAN: Right. DAVID: You know and there's a lot of stuff that needs to be cleared for the flow to kind of come in. Like we always want to be positive, but like that ain't real. IAN: That's very true. DAVID: We got both sides. IAN: If we just keep building, building, building, building up things and not integrating them and stripping away things that don't need -- then actually this is spiritual materialism. You know just buying more and more -- accumulating more and more ideas and not actually applying them. This is a strange place where pain becomes very useful in developing love and wisdom. So, they call this the dark knight of the soul and this sounds spooky and it is and -- DAVID: I want none of that. IAN: Right. I don't want any of that. Give me the -- yeah give me the -- more of the MDMA's path of -- LAUGHS -- you know development you know. Actually, even that can be via negativa actually. MDMA is very helpful with via negativa particularly in PTSD -- essentially stripping away things is just as good for growing a garden as it is planting the seed. Then also you must remove weeds -- DAVID: You got to till the ground -- IAN: Till the ground and do everything -- needs to be done. There are really the same -- different sides of the same coin. DAVID: Yeah, the fruit doesn't come in the beginning -- it comes in the end. IAN: Yeah, right. DAVID: You gotta do the work first. IAN: You must. Yeah and then you will feel so happy. DAVID: Yeah. So good. So, you're touching a lot on hypnosis and I want to talk about hypnosis. It's so fun. IAN: Definitely. DAVID: So, I actually read a book a long time ago -- "Journey of Souls." IAN: Oh yes! Right! Yeah. DAVID: Oh my God. Changed the way I think -- it made me realize how vast the Bardo is. And the after world -- if you all don't know what the Bardo, but it really made me realize how important hypnosis is, but just for like a general sense can you just describe what hypnosis is? IAN: Sure. So, hypnosis is really an amazing thing and it's also quite a simple thing. Hypnosis is really just the art of using the mind. And using the mind in particular in service of trying to alter one's perceptions. Trying to alter one's beliefs, trying to alter one's sensations to achieve some kind of result that would be helpful. So that's kind of the definition that we use as professionals, but I wouldn't really say it's really just a technique of using your mind in the same way I would define meditation the same way. These are traditions of using the mind to gain benefit. DAVID: Interesting. Ok, so someone who might be interested in hypnosis as a therapeutic sort of application -- what would that look like in a session? And also, is everyone able to go into hypnosis because you know you watch people on stage doing the hypnosis thing and then they have -- IAN: Have you seen? ItÕs fun. DAVID: I've seen a lot of different versions of that and I was actually called once to do it, but I wasn't a good candidate. IAN: Oh OK. DAVID: I wasn't able to get into the zone like other people where just by like a click of a finger or something. So what kind of therapeutic advances is this used for? Like how is this good for people? IAN: You have a number of great questions in there -- particularly -- no, no they were all good and I enjoy these questions. In particular all my research has been around one central topic, which is looking at the issue that you noted. That some people can have this experience very deeply and very quickly. And other people can also have it, but they might require more effort in practice. Everyone can get it in the end, and we know, however, that about 25 percent of folks are very, very talented even without any instruction at all. You can just like literally say close your eyes and you can imagine now that your body is becoming more and more numb. And you're feeling less and less the sensations of your body and just listening to the sound of my voice -- forgetting about your body and I do this -- and 25 percent of the people will be enough to encourage dissociation, which could be used to help somebody who may have pain or something like this. Or someone who just needs to relax more and kind of tune out the stressors in their life. So about 25 percent are very, very talented from the beginning. About 50 percent are about average and need some work. And about 25 percent are what we would call on the low hypnotizing whole range. And this is not like -- oh you'll never be good. These are just folks that actually need some more training before starting hypnosis. So, we would start with biofeedback or something that really teaches this person to get into their mind, body, experience. These people are not bad people. They're not you know -- they're just people. And so, they have all kinds of -- DAVID: Careful, that's me. IAN: LAUGHS No actually -- I'm not quite sure about that. Because you have a background in music. And so, it would be fairly remarkable that you would not be of at least average hypnotic ability. DAVID: Do you find that music helps people get into hypnosis more? IAN: It totally does. And some great research done by Josephine Hilgard at the University of Chicago that showed not only does music aid hypnotic ability and getting people into the experience -- so long as you choose the right music, right? DAVID: Some will put you in a different space. IAN: Right if you put like Captain and Tennille on you get a different result then like Deadmau5 you know. DAVID: Ok. Yeah totally. IAN: And you know someone could actually love the Captain and Tennille, but then others will enjoy the Deadmau5. So yeah, if some people respond more, but we do know that musicians in general tend to have more hypnotic ability than people who are not musicians. And if one is involved in some kind of experience that's very immersive like being a musician or being an artist of any sort -- engaged in creative things or a person who's into writing poetry or an actor or an actress where you're like really getting immersed in some experience -- just like doing this podcast. Then that is very, very likely that you are at least of average hypnotic ability or high. You're probably of average ability. You should know that I know a lot about stage hypnosis and I just recently went to a show where afterwards I spent a lot of time talking about this with the guy who did it. I won't mention his name, but he's very famous in Vegas. Yeah, so they're only looking for people in the top 5 percent. DAVID: Yeah, they're looking for the show. IAN: So, you could even be -- yeah, right. So, you could even be in the high range, but we would have to do testing to really figure this out. After many years I have learned some things about personality characteristics of people who are good at hypnosis has nothing to do with being suggestible -- strangely enough. So, there are some people who are very suggestible. And if you enter their homes you will find three or four George Foreman grills and many products from the QVC Home Shopping Network. But they're no more likely to be good at hypnosis than someone who has none of those products -- because as it happens suggestibility just doesn't go -- correlate or predict hypnotic ability or the ability to experience hypnosis -- that's what hypnotic ability is. However, there are some things we know that do predicted it. It's not related to intelligence. Actually, it's moderately correlated with verbal intelligence. So, the more verbal intelligence you have -- the stronger the tendency for you to be gifted at hypnosis is -- it's not correlated with being a person who has a psychotic disorder or any kind of thing that people worry that maybe if I'm good at hypnosis that means I'm some kind of crazy person -- anything like that. But what it is correlated with is empathy and that's what my research has been about. And I came up with this idea because I noticed that whenever I get talking with somebody like time goes -- like I actually have totally lost track of time in this moment. DAVID: Like dissolves. IAN: Yeah totally. It's just like you and me here and there's a natural hypnosis of a good conversation or for those who are listening -- help listening. Like you can get totally into this experience and sort of just enjoy the flow of ideas and the exchange of information and the feelings and emotions of what's happening. And the more we put ourselves in this experience -- it becomes very meditative like. And that meditative experience is very much what hypnosis is about. That we're meditating on each other. That's what we do with hypnosis is that it's a personal experience where we lead people deep into their own experience. And so now it comes to your question about how we help -- and then we coach people about how to alter their inner realities as well. So, like if a person is very stressed person with a lot of stress and maybe some anger and anxiety in their life or depression -- that we can teach them to actually meditate on their own experience. And to find the parts of their experience that are already quite relaxed. DAVID: Interesting -- so like taking away the reaction mechanism and adding a filter in-between that analyzes what's actually happening and you're like I'm triggered and ok well I'm going to sit with that and like where's that coming from and then uncovering where it is coming from. IAN: Now that is -- DAVID: Internal investigations. IAN: That is fantastic -- your analysis -- that is perfect. And we even have a word for this -- it's called meta cognition. So, we're learning skills about how to think. So, meditation and hypnosis are both very powerful meta cognitive tools because they teach you about how you're naturally thinking -- both in a surface level way, but they also teach you advanced ways of using the deeper potential of the mind. So that you can really get the full power like -- like you mentioned the filtering. That's a huge thing -- knowing that you don't have to react -- that actually you can get some space around what's just happened. You know someone come in and say something disturbing to you. You don't have to automatically punch him in the nose. You could wait a minute and then punch him in the nose. LAUGHS. Or you know you could just kind of sit with some space and feel what you're feeling. Let it flow through you and dissolve of its own nature. That's the main tradition in the tradition of meditation -- and most meditative schools will say this. That the -- one of the things about meditation is it gives you some space. So, you don't you have to be so reactive. DAVID: It's like taking the scenic route in the neurological pathway. IAN: Yeah! DAVID: So, it almost sounds like the cognitive internal dialogue that you're talking about is -- instead of taking the normal street -- the Google map that's going to get you to the reaction that you normally go to -- youÕre actually willing to take the -- the byway -- different route to actually have a different response. And that response may not be a response at all. And to have an investigation internally before you react. I feel like that's super heart based because the heart doesn't want to react right away -- it kind of wants to understand what's going on and collectively gather the information. Because feelings don't just -- they -- they pop up all of sudden, but they hang out longer. So, it's like you get to decide on what you want to do. And when you meditate on something a little bit longer you can uncover that like maybe my anger isn't the right approach to this. Maybe a little bit more empathy more empathy. IAN: More empathy. And just a simple space. It's really funny when I first started reading this literature -- I read this book by this guy named Tarthang Tulku Rinpoche. And it was a very powerful Dzogchen teacher. Dzogchen means the great self-perfection in the Tibetan -- DAVID: Self-perfection -- IAN: And so, they believe that all of us have an innate perfection side -- it's very trans personal. You know that we have a deeper level of wisdom and love that's inexhaustible. You know like sun in the sky -- it's always there. But so, I was reading this book and the name of the book was, "In Search of Space." I thought, oh, this maybe is like astral projection -- like I'll be able to -- LAUGHS -- go out in space if I read this book. And then I discovered -- actually it's talking about the space in the heart. you know that if you're really fully present -- and really allowing everything to come through the heart way -- like you said it has an innate tendency to want to do the loving thing. And many times, that is holding space and not reacting to someone's negativity. And that can be a powerful thing. You know the person can just feel -- because a lot of these folks can be having trouble with anger or some kind of personality thing. They're used to people jumping on them when they say things wrong. It's so healing. DAVID: Yeah, I also feel like that could be valid for the internal self. IAN: Yes. DAVID: Because we get down on ourselves too, but to hold space -- like how many times are we holding space for ourselves? IAN: Right. DAVID: You know I mean? Like if we can do that and find the little center of the heart where there's all that space for you to hold for yourself too. IAN: Yeah, and you've really got the principle -- DAVID: Hold space for anything else would be a little bit easier. IAN: Totally. You've really got the principle. All the teachings -- always say both in the clinical psychology and also in Dharma. You know the study of the Buddhism and other mystical traditions. They all say you must learn how to do for yourself first. Then if you do then so much easier to do for others. But first you must begin with yourself. And that's why in our program we really require here at Naropa -- in the mindfulness based transpersonal counsel -- we require everyone to do their own counseling. And we require a certain number of sessions, but then encourage everyone. You must keep going. And you must have some kind of personal spiritual path -- doesn't have to be religious one, but you must have some path -- meditation or yoga and you must keep going because these things are so deep. And if you're -- and the longer you're doing then many of these meta cognitive abilities emerge over short periods of time. And some seems to take longer. And some of them are quite amazing -- things like lucid dreaming, the ability to become awake in your dreams. This is very common experience for people doing these things, but a lot of people will take some time to develop these things and then there's so many other of these -- you know and so they have old word for this -- is a (?) -- you know this is sort of like mental faculties that grow and you know a lot of them are just very practical things like more empathy or a space to work with yourself and others. And then some are you know quite amazing like lucid dreaming. DAVID: Okay, wonderful. I'm actually kind of curious -- so when it comes to hypnosis and the person clicks on to you being able to advise them in a hypnosis state -- what is going on in the brain? IAN: Oh -- DAVID: Like what is -- what is the mechanics? Is there a different spot in the brain being used? Is there more of the brain being used? Like what is being activated -- IAN: Wow, perfect question! Yeah, so this is one of my favorite areas -- is looking at the neuroscience of hypnosis. And the reason why is when I first started doing this work in helping people in the late 1980's -- it was a fairly honest hypothesis that people experiencing hypnosis might be faking it. And that perhaps they were just kind of like role playing and that actually they weren't having the experiences that they were having. Or if they were it was kind of minimal and they were kind of like hoking it up, you know. So, this was actually a legitimate hypothesis. However, in the 1990's then all of these FMRI studies and positron emission tomography studies came out that showed what is going on. And so, we actually now know what is happening in hypnosis. So, you've asked this great question. Hypnosis works primarily by altering the experience of self, which is an amazing thing unto itself. That we do have in our brain -- network of brain structures called the default mode network -- that actually seems to underlie our experience of who we are. So, for instance, it is connected to the hippocampus which seems to have aspects of our memory stored there. And then also the somatosensory cortex is where our experience of our bodily self comes from. So, actually -- you know it seems to us like right now -- DAVID: Like how do you experience the world? IAN: Right. And how we experience this. It seems like you know you're there over there and I'm over here. And whoever is listening at home -- you're in that other place. And it seems like these things are all independently real, but the truth is actually it isn't. And you actually have made up this experience like it seems like this is my hand here and here is a ring on it that makes a sensation when I move it. And you're sitting in a chair somewhere. You could feel your back in the chair. And all of that is just a neural experience. It is as real to you as reality, but also any dream experience that you add onto that will use the exact same process. So there's a really fantastic study done by Steve Kosslyn who's from Harvard University -- right around -- I think is 2001 and it appeared in one of the journals of psychiatry -- and what he showed was that when people were looking at black and white slides -- and he asked them to imagine as if they were color -- that actually people using hypnosis to imagine color onto a black and white slide produced the same response in the brain as if they were looking at color. So that imagining color actually produces the same processes as if you're looking at color. So, fantasy is as real as a reality. And hypnosis works by altering our experience of self and the perceptions that come to the self can be modified just by your expectations of them. DAVID: Yeah, feels like a mind over matter sort of situation. IAN: It really is. DAVID: There's this one saying that I really like -- it's not seeing is believing -- it's believing is seeing. The manifestation -- the understanding of the universe. It's kind of fairly woo woo, but at the same time what you are describing in a scientifically way -- is that your mind can shift your reality in such a way that what is actually there -- is believable. IAN: That's true. Actually, it turns out the real woo woo is believing you exist. The evidence for that is not very -- the real woo woo is thinking that your mind does not influence your perception of reality -- of yourself or the world around you. That's the real woo woo. The science shows that actually your experience of yourself is highly determined by the story that you tell yourself about it -- if you're saying I'm a good person. I'm a good person -- then that will have some effect on you -- you'll believe you're a good person, but if you're like most people -- LAUGHS -- and you say I'm overweight and I don't like this about myself -- I don't like that -- then that influences not only how you see yourself in the mirror, but your actual body weight. And so, your body goes along with your expectations. If you say I have a slow metabolism -- guess how your metabolism will be? DAVID: Guess what? IAN: Right. So, the real woo woo is thinking that your mind and your world and your perception of yourself are dissociated. These things are the same. DAVID: You know if there are people out there that like might not get on that bus and believe that -- what would be a fun experiment for them is to be like hey you know that story that you tell yourself -- shift it to a way that benefits you. And then come back in a week and you ask yourself how do I feel? And take a measurement of their happiness or their -- who they are in that moment. Socrates said, speak of virtues every day -- be a virtuous person. You know I mean? So, it's like having positivity and supporting others and being available and holding space and all that fun stuff is doing the work. IAN: It really is. Yeah it -- I really love your Socrates quote there -- it was very beautiful. DAVID: Picked that up in community college. IAN: Oh wonderful. Hey -- DAVID: I was super into philosophy back in the day and it turned into Buddhism somehow. IAN: Oh of course! Yeah, actually also my background is as a clinical health psychologist. But also, I had a philosophy minor. The reason I kind of got into this field was -- you can see we've been talking about very, very deep issues involving the mind, body problem -- as it's discussed in philosophy in general. And I love studying Rene Descartes in particular around this -- DAVID: He is one of my favorites too. IAN: Right? You know there's also the political context that he lived in that sort of made him do this thing that he did about splitting these things. DAVID: The universe will be measured by numbers. IAN: Right! DAVID: Is what the angels told him. IAN: Wow. I haven't heard that before -- DAVID: And science -- he created science. IAN: Wow, of course. Yeah definitely -- he really -- him and John Locke and Barkley and all of them -- really created this numerical tradition of science that is so good. And is really good as a discipline for helping us to cut through assumptions about our experience that maybe not as warranted. And often there are simpler explanations for the phenomena we have. But on the other hand, if something really is -- you know a really powerful phenomena and is actually really real like talking about how we were just talking about how our expectations of reality become reality through hypnotic processes that are going on even without someone having to put you in hypnosis. There's a normal hypnosis of the world. The Buddhists talk about waking up -- what are we waking up from? The kind of consensual trance that we're all walking around in all the time. You don't know how to hypnotize people -- already we are hypnotized at all times. And we're managing our experience of the body like right now -- I'm not very much aware of the feeling of the socks on my feet because I could naturally disassociate that away -- like what use it to think about my socks or my feet or the shirt on my back. So, hypnosis is built into our control of our mind, body, relationship -- and it's really just a craft -- just like meditation -- a meta cognitive skill that teaches us how to manipulate these things so we can experience a better life. DAVID: Oh interesting. IAN: People can get over chronic pain problems. We know about 75 percent of people who have -- like headaches and back pain or any kind of pain issue -- burns and things. Like 75 percent within about six to eight sessions can actually learn how to reduce that pain very, very significantly. Generally something like 50 percent or greater change. DAVID: Interesting. There's also this idea of like phantom limb. IAN: Yeah! DAVID: Pain or -- like people who may have lost an arm or weren't born without a hand or something -- like they can feel this phantom pain or just like a phantom arm. And that's like all brain based. IAN: It is! Even once treated a person with phantom tongue pain. They were in this car accident and at the moment of the impact they were screaming and then they hit their head on the dash and the tongue was out and severed the tongue. So, then they were constantly feeling like their tongue was on fire -- and no tongue. You know like -- it's gone. You can even -- they could see in the mirror and still feel the tongue was there and even see it in a kind of hallucinatory way. Yeah, so phantom pain is really -- and phantom sensations even without pain are a really dramatic example that we don't live in reality. We live in an experience of reality. And the body self is created by somatosensory cortex. DAVID: And the reality that I'm experiencing at this moment -- and the reality that you're experiencing in this moment are completely different. IAN: Right. DAVID: And they're based on how our brains are functioning, how we perceive what is available to us in this moment. It's -- it's just so based on personal experience. IAN: It is! DAVID: That it's -- it's really hard, but then at the same time there's so many of us -- so we all can have like a collective experience, but in the personal realm and then we have dialogue about it or we talk about these things that we're experiencing and we're like well you --you have that same dream too. You know what I mean? IAN: That's very true. And since we already raised the topic of philosophy -- there's a really wonderful new field of neuroscience that's really embracing meditation and hypnosis and they called this neurophenomenology. And so, it's a study -- DAVID: Sounds like something I would like. IAN: -- of experience and how this is related to neuroscience and how neuroscience can validate people's phenomenological experience. But one of the central tenets of all phenomenology is yeah, the -- the central nature that everyone's experience is quite different. And at the same time there's a lot of power and magic in that too. In that if you know that you're actually not living in a given world and that actually you're telling yourself a story about the world and that's creating the experience -- and also a story of who you are. And so, if you can get control of that self-talk -- that narrative about how you feel about the world -- then you have a tremendous magical power to transform your life. Yeah. DAVID: Feels good. IAN: Right. DAVID: Yeah, and it's your story. IAN: It is. DAVID: You get to own it and it's fun when you understand the ownership and the accountability that you have on your decisions in your life and how you show up in the world. I love that. IAN: Yeah. DAVID: And it's very empowering. And it's also a little scary you know like sometimes you have to face some things that are very difficult, and you do want to run away. But, just showing up in that folly and being authentic and like you can be angry and all that, but just like spread it out -- you know don't just clump it up and just throw it all in one place. Like be very conscious of how you are taking care of your needs. IAN: Oh, so wonderful the way we're discussing this is very much like one of my dear Tibetan teachers -- his name is Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. He teaches folks how to do lucid dreaming. DAVID: Yeah, he's been at Naropa a couple times. IAN: He has been -- you're right. DAVID: I've heard some of his talks. IAN: Oh, did you have a podcast with him? You should. DAVID: I should. IAN: Next time. DAVID: I'm the archivist of the school. So, I have all -- every single talk -- IAN: Oh wonderful. DAVID: ...done for the last six years. IAN: Oh great, great. So, yeah maybe if you like -- I introduce you next time he come, DAVID: Please. I would love to. IAN: But going along with what you said -- one of my favorite quotes from him comes from a book on how you can use lucid dreaming as a spiritual path. And he says, most people -- it is more like you are dreamt than you are dreaming. And so, you can -- like you say you can really get control of our narrative then we are dreaming -- you know we can dream other dreams and better ones. But if it's more like your dreamt -- do you feel like your dependent on the narrative of others and how you're experiencing things and you feel like a ship -- it's like a quote -- I think this comes from Tennyson -- poor man what art. A tennis ball of error, a ship of glass tossed in a sea of terror. So, it often seems like our life were a slave to circumstances beyond our control and there is some sense in which we are like a ship of glass tossed on a sea of terror. Who knows? You know the goddess of fortune -- DAVID: Poetic -- IAN: ...bring some -- oh right, I just love that so much. Hypnosis is a lot of study of words and the honey of words is often revealed through policy. So, you can learn how to become awake in this dream that we're sharing all the time. And that becomes another fun part of this too with my research with empathy is the reason hypnosis exists is because of the deep empathy that beings have. And that as we listen to one another more -- we'll naturally use hypnosis to merge into that experience. And so, it really reflects the deepest level of our mind to discern our own experience and empathize with ourselves and to have heart for ourselves in all of our experiences because here's another weird thing -- there's more than one of us in there. DAVID: What? IAN: Right. DAVID: That's -- ok -- oh... IAN LAUGHS DAVID: So, I've been having this new idea where when a dialogue or a conversation is happening within my mind -- I start asking the question, who is this? Which one of you are showing up at this moment. Because I know there's like multiple personalities and or conversations happening. And it's kind of like you can almost have like a tri-log. You can have the reality self -- the higher self and then like a spirit guide or something. Or -- IAN: Any number of -- DAVID: Whatever you kind of believe in. But there's -- I like to ask myself -- DAVID: What stories you have told. DAVID: Yeah, like who is talking to me at this moment? Who is there? IAN: Who do I got now? DAVID: Yeah. IAN: This is literally a question I'll ask my clients all the time -- who do I got now? And they're like, why are you talking -- this is -- my name is Rick. And I'm like but which part of Rick do I have? Do I have Rick the father of a 14-year-old boy? Or do I have Rick the guy who likes to go out in a sports bar? Do I have Rick who, you know, is a tax attorney? You know and so we all have these different parts in these different ego states that kind of tell themselves a different story about who we are. So, this is another wonderful thing about the hypnosis tradition is it's -- the one of the few traditions in the psychology world that has noticed that the experience of self is not unitary. That it's actually quite fragmentary and that we tell ourselves a story that in fact we're one person. But it's very illusory. DAVID: I wonder if some of the fragmented versions within one's mind -- they seem to tell different stories at different points. So, it's like you can want to tell yourself a story and you're like I don't know if I am believing that right now and then other -- other days like, yay, like I'm so into that right now. And that's interesting to gather them all up and be like all right let's have a meeting. IAN: Right! DAVID: Just hangout. IAN: In fact, that is a good thing to do -- actually we call this -- sometimes this is done with -- it's called the empty chair technique and hypnosis often will bring -- we'll call this like a family table. And so, we bring the family together -- a person's different selves and sometimes you literally have a part that's someone else. Like a dear part of my mind and body is of my sister and my sister she died about five years ago. DAVID: Sorry to hear that. IAN: Oh yeah. But here's the thing -- she is still in me. DAVID: Yeah! IAN: She is still in me -- DAVID: Kept here close. IAN: And every once in a while, I'll even hear her talking to me. And usually it's after I did something foolish like I'll trip -- DAVID: She's like you shouldn't have done that. IAN: Right, actually she says something -- she says dumb ass. LAUGHS. This is what she would do in real life. DAVID: She's still got her flare going on. All right. IAN: So, we have these different parts of ourselves and some of them reflect people that we've brought in. And again, this is natural to the hypnotic world. In fact, everything that you see is already a part of your mind. You don't have to bring it in. If you're looking at me -- I am a part of your mind. If you're hearing me in this moment I'm already there. DAVID: You're just a bunch of upside down reflecting light coming into my eye and then I just make sense of it with my brain. IAN: Right! Yeah, you even got the inversion part of that. Very good. DAVID: Yeah, you're just a bunch of like light waves cruising in. IAN: Isn't that something? Yeah, we are currently -- DAVID: Pretty wild. IAN: People talk about vibrations and energies of the universe. This is a natural part of our sensory experience. DAVID: Yeah, and itÕs all waves. Angular momentum -- spin. IAN: How amazing. DAVID: Yeah. IAN: So, I really enjoy this field so much because it gives you a very practical way of investigating the spiritual mysteries of the world. So that we can gain inspiration to look deeper into ourselves. But also, a very practical way of helping people with very difficult problems -- people with very powerful kinds of pain. And that feel like they're locked in a body that's going to hurt for the rest of their life and nothing can be done about it. And then have to say you don't live in reality. If it feels like you do and that you're trapped in this pain body, but I can teach you how to alter that. DAVID: Oh my God -- this is so amazing. That is actually -- that is our time right now. I just -- I just wanted to give you the space -- is there any last words that you'd like to say or is there any -- do you have any thing that people can follow you -- that are more interested? IAN: Sure. First, I want to say thank you. This has been such an engaging and beautiful conversation and really reflects a lot of the insight and wisdom that you have into the nature of the mind and body. So, it's really wonderful to share this. DAVID: We'll have to do a round two because I only went through not even half my questions. IAN LAUGHING DAVID: It's just such a good flow with you. IAN: Oh, thank you. DAVID: There's a lot of -- you're super knowledgeable about a lot of things that I'm just naturally interested in that I necessarily haven't gone to school for. I'm just someone who's kind of interested in and read a couple books, but -- IAN: And had experiences. DAVID: But you -- you got it. And it's just so good to hear -- IAN: Oh, you're so kind to reflect that to me. But your question -- you know it's really funny -- Tibetans really regard questions as being more important than answers -- you know. You asked beautiful, wonderful question of open space and so yeah, please -- enjoyed doing again. DAVID: It's probably spirit that ask and its science than answers. IAN: Oh, how wonderful. Spirit that asks. Very nice. Very nice. But yeah, I would say in closing anyone who's interested -- I have a website where I discuss a lot of these kinds of issues and you can find some of my research -- particularly on hypnosis and how it's related to empathy. And also, you can get recommendations for -- if anyone would like to learn how to do these things to get help with like depression or anxiety or pain or any kind of difficulty or even -- I've helped people to be better at performance issues. Like if you want to -- I've helped swimmers and people run faster and things. I used hypnosis to run about 2 full marathons now and about 13 1/2 marathons. I just run completely in bliss -- runner's high. So, you can go to that and its www. BuddhistPsychotherapy.com -- and so you can go there. Also just wanted to say too -- anyone who is listening, and you are experiencing some difficulty with your inner reality or it feels like you're trapped in a world that you can do nothing about -- hope that this podcast gives you some hope that actually there is a deeper level of magic. You can learn to use meditation, hypnosis and many things and get to that deeper level of magic -- an ordinary magic that will give you more control and there's always hope. DAVID: Yeah, we're on your team. We got you. IAN: Nice. Yeah. DAVID: We love you. IAN: Definitely. There is more love -- DAVID: I love you. IAN: I love you too. Wonderful. DAVID: Just sending it out there. Thank you so much for speaking with me. I'm seriously -- we got to book another one. IAN: Ok, let's do it. DAVID: We'll wait a couple months and we'll book it. But I'm going to keep these questions because there's so many more questions about empathy. I want to go into more meditation -- neuroscience stuff but we just don't have enough time at this moment. IAN: Sure. DAVID: Hypnosis is such a fun -- I just appreciate you being knowledgeable and sharing your wisdom with us and just -- just being such a joyful soul to speak to. IAN: Thank you. And thank you -- you -- your joy also was very contagious. Thank you, good sir. DAVID: Awesome. So, I'd like to thank my guest, Dr. Ian Wickramasekera. He is a core faculty member in the mindfulness based transpersonal counselling program. So, thank you again. IAN: Thank you, so much good sir. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]