Lama Rod Owens [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itŐs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:45.12] DAVID: Hello, today I would like to welcome a very special guest to Naropa University Lama Rod Owns. He is a visiting distinguished Lenz Lecturer, an author, activist and Lama. So welcome to the podcast. [00:00:58.04] LAMA ROD OWENS: Thank you! ItŐs great to be here. [00:01:00.11] DAVID: Yeah, is there anything else you'd like to highlight about yourself? [00:01:02.23] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, I mean I guess first and foremost I'm a lot of fun. [00:01:07.09] DAVID: Awesome. LAUGHING [00:01:08.04] LAMA ROD OWENS: I mean I think you should lead with that all the time. I do a bunch of things you know. I teach cross traditions - not just on the Buddhism but insight traditions and I work with activists around emotional health and self-care. I work with an app called Awaken and we are a specializing in meditations geared towards activists. It helps us to think about how to - to bridge our contemplative practice into social change work. And lots of travel. I am on my way to Europe to do a 6-week tour - a teaching tour of Europe. I am working on my next book -- [00:01:49.09] DAVID: Which is? [00:01:50.03] LAMA ROD OWENS: ItŐs a dialogue between love and rage. [00:01:53.15] DAVID: Oh lovely! [00:01:54.06] LAMA ROD OWENS: So - so my lecture tonight will actually be kind of a preview of that work. [00:01:59.09] DAVID: Ok, is it like love and rage speaking to each other? [00:02:01.18] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yes. [00:02:02.08] DAVID: I like that. [00:02:03.03] LAMA ROD OWENS: And then what arises between that dialogue - which is heart break. And then heart break arises then we move into self-care and self-preservation. [00:02:13.23] DAVID: Yeah, I like that. So, yesterday you did a talk in the performing art center at Naropa. And, your talk was about happiness. And, you had this like beautiful authentic story of when you were walking, and you were like I don't feel happy. And I have to present happiness. And so, it kind of made me want to ask you how are you feeling today? I want to just check in with you. [00:02:37.06] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yes, you know I feel - a lot better. You know? But, its - itŐs such a contradiction or an irony that you're - you know you having to go and talk about being happy. When you're just actually moving through a lot of discomforts. You know? And so, the work then in that moment begins uh to be turning our minds or rather for me turning my mind towards experience of happiness which for me is synonymous with the experiences of spaciousness. You know, so I think we get really fixated on the difficult stuff. You know uh which is really easy to do in the practice of dharma and Buddhism is to get stuck in the suffering and dukkha and because that is what we always lead with. [00:03:22.12] DAVID: And you were talking about the dukkha yesterday and the suffering and how I see that is that's facts. [00:03:28.21] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah. [00:03:29.08] DAVID: That is just - that is just what is. And, the better we are able to work with that the better we are able to sustain - ourselves emotionally. So -- [00:03:39.07] LAMA ROD OWENS: There will always be suffering. You know? But I think that we begin to transform our relationship to the suffering and therefore the suffering itself transforms too. You know but itŐs all about relationships - itŐs about how we are centered within the sense of self. And ego and how they ego is always interpreting phenomena. You know? And it - and interprets phenomenon to give itself life. You know? And the narrative and the purpose you know but that purpose doesn't have to be about - being happy and free. It can also be about - suffering and pain. You know? So, any way that the ego can actually differentiate itself -- it will do that. [00:04:25.21] DAVID: I see the ego as a barometer for what doesn't vibrate with you. ItŐs a tool to - when like wow this isn't working for me - look into that. What does that actually mean? Keep diving into the questions and that's how I see the work. [00:04:41.01] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah. Absolutely and you have to be very clear about what the work is. Are you doing your work or are you doing someone else's work? Or you're just making up shit to do to keep busy. [00:04:50.16] DAVID: How do you know - how does one know when itŐs your work and or someone else's work? [00:04:55.23] LAMA ROD OWENS: We stay very close to our discomfort. So, we, you know as Trungpa Rinpoche often taught we are befriending these parts of ourselves that we habitually avoid. We move into direct relationship. If we're staying close to it like we know - the narratives we know where its arising from. You know it guides us into saying ok like this is the work that I am doing you know for myself. [00:05:22.13] DAVID: Ok. And you also talked about like relationship and when I think about relationship I think about the idea of relationship is able to change because we have these ideas in our mind that things are what we learned when we first learned them. You know like our idea of love. How has your idea of love changed since you started the dharma? I am sure itŐs changed multiple times. So, redefining what things mean to us I am feeling like is very important and relationship is one of those. [00:05:52.20] LAMA ROD OWENS: Absolutely when I you know before dharma had no idea what love was. I couldn't even define it. So, when I came into dharma and when I got this definition of love being the wish for others to be happy that was actually quite radical for me because I had a starting point and I began to understand that I don't have to like you to love you. I don't have to like you to want you to be free and happy. You know? And love takes us into really depressing places. And really difficult places to be. So, itŐs not the thing that we do to feel good. You know itŐs this thing that we do to get free and to free others. And by decentering ego and wanting people to be their best selves and to be directly in tune for their basic goodness. [00:06:35.07] DAVID: Yeah, it sounds like unconditional stuff right there. Very cool. There is this sense of honoring the feelings that come up and I am seeing a narrative kind of come out when you're speaking about this and I love how authentic you are to the feelings you are feeling in the moment. Is there like mechanisms or tools that you use to help you regulate that? [00:06:56.10] LAMA ROD OWENS: So, it was basic practices of mindfulness and awareness and putting those into conversation in order to have a sense of what is happening. In the moment, how to move through experiencing things that are coming up. That is basic dharma is just being aware. You know? And my libratory practice - my personal libratory practice is actually stating that and acknowledging - this is where I am at in my body. You know this is what I am feeling. This is what I am experiencing and when you are able to do that as a teacher - as a facilitator or a meditation instructor - you're actually giving people a really profound strategy to be free. And open where they are. [00:07:41.10] DAVID: I feel like that is what people want when they come to dharma is strategies to be free. And you're like here you go. Here is some tools. [00:07:49.10] LAMA ROD OWENS: And itŐs not what you think it is. It is actually way less sexier. Way less glamorous. You know dharma isn't sexier glamorous for me. You know itŐs just work. You know - its discipline and work and I do it because the fruit is - this spacious. This openness. Where I can just be with my life. You know, and I am not interested in trying to avoid everything by becoming really interested in moving into direct relationship with - with everything that comes up for me because its mine. You know and that's where - the liberation actually happens and you're like oh I am doing this work now - you know and over the years - of practice you realize you become a different person. You begin to trust yourself more because you're always in tune with your experiences coming up and that is what I love. It just becomes very ordinary. [00:08:41.17] DAVID: How often do you run into people that want dharma to be sexy? [00:08:45.12] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, all the time. LAUGHS. You know -- [00:08:47.20] DAVID: What do you mean its - I just have to sit that's it? Like itŐs not -- [00:08:51.19] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah you just - you have to sit but you know we have so many people and so many industries arising that are -- you know making dharma really sexy and silly and for people. You know and that's - those are the people I have to - I don't want to say compete with but these are the people that I am with. You know where I am just like well I don't know any other way but to be with pain and where other people are selling other things - they are the same way. You know you can just be happy. And avoid the pain. You know? And that's the big difference in what's happening. People are selling happiness as a bypassing tool. You know? Whereas authentic dharma is about you go through the pain and the suffering in order to understand what happiness is within the mist of struggle. [00:09:35.08] DAVID: And yesterday you touched on that a lot of - of not going around and not going over it. And I remember being in camp and there was like a song and itŐs like this little sing along song is like you got to go through it. And I - I extremely resonate with that because I have had a lot of moments in my life where -- I look back on the hardest - like the heart felt moments that we're really hard to deal with and they were the best thing that has ever happened in my life. I am like wow. I became a completely different person pretty rapidly over that time so could you speak upon actually moving through it and how skillful that is compared to just stepping aside and bypassing. [00:10:12.09] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, because it doesn't just disappear if you bypass it. You know, so we have to develop the attitude that like if I don't actually move into relationship and move through it then I can't actually metabolize it and work with it. You know? But once we start moving through it and into it - the pain, the suffering actually begins to reveal its true nature to us. And itŐs not what we think it is. You know? Sometimes for me itŐs like a rollercoaster. So, you get on the first -- ascent going up the first hill and you're like oh this is going to suck. You're like why did I get on this ride. [00:10:45.00] DAVID: Can I get off? [00:10:45.18] LAMA ROD OWENS: Can I get off? Can we just stop this? And then you get higher and higher and then you get to the peak you know and you slowly tipping down and you're like looking down that slope and you just like crash down into it and you're just like you know what I am just going to be here. You know I'm just going to like lean into this and have fun. And that's really my approach to working with - I just go in. I am like you know I am going to find a way to have fun. I am going to find a way to celebrate this, but ultimately I am going to be present to this and allow this moment to teach me something. [00:11:18.12] DAVID: Nobody said being present is going to feel good. [00:11:21.11] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, exactly. [00:11:22.11] DAVID: You know what I mean? But being present is -- where the work is you could say? Yeah. Oh, it like feels good. I like this because there is a sense of when you are present you are able to - like the ego has like its own mind. And itŐs going to talk to you. And your mind - you're going to have like an internal dialogue within between your psyche, your ego and your heart, your soul. All these like different mixtures of things collaborating with each other. And then, what the presence does is actually gets them together in a container and says like all right let's hear you all out. Let's see what's going on you know asking yourself questions. [00:12:03.03] LAMA ROD OWENS: I mean you just hold the space for that. That dialogue to happen you know. And it becomes a really interesting dialogue because you begin to see things about yourself. Once you stop like creating boundaries and barriers between your different selves you know bring everything into community and it is this community of dialogue with the different parts of yourself that you begin to understand who you really are. And what you're being motivated by and what you're being drawn to and what your appetite is. And you begin to make skillful choices about how to reduce violence. [00:12:39.12] DAVID: Yeah. That - like never hurts. How would one practice being present? How do you practice being present? [00:12:49.23] LAMA ROD OWENS: Uh - you know itŐs just this - this checking in. ItŐs like ok what am I feeling? Where am I at in my body? Where am I at in my mind? What am I being distracted by? You know. Uh where I am avoiding? So, for me itŐs a series of questions and that actually just drops me right into what's happening in the very moment. Its - you know and I am like ok and then you say ok this is where I am at. This is how I am feeling. [00:13:15.03] DAVID: Yeah, itŐs funny too because the questions will lead to more questions which lead to more questions and then - and then by the time you can't ask yourself anymore questions you're like is this it. And then you have the moment of like I am ok with that. Because that's - that's how I feel. This is authentic at this moment. So yeah. [00:13:32.15] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, so I think that this is exactly what you're experiencing. [00:13:37.20] DAVID: You know we all have suffering - the dukkha. We all want to be happy. And, what I really like what you were saying yesterday was - I do this thing where you know you can say the word love. You can say the word happiness. You can say the word compassion. I like to go a step further and I like to put the word skillful in front of it because once you add skillful it has this different way of moving through the space. And, I notice you do that too. And I was resonating with that a lot because you were talking about skillful sadness. Most people would scratch their head and be like what the hell? Skillful - like how do you be skillfully sad? You know curious can you speak upon that? [00:14:21.05] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, absolutely. So skillful anything but in this case skillful sadness is actually how we bring a presentness or an awareness or a mindfulness to what we're experiencing. And allow that experience to teach uh something. You know not - we're not just allowing it to be there, but we are looking at it as a teacher. That this is material - data that is actually really precious. You know about what we're doing. And how we are in the world and how we can actually begin to make different choices that will impact this experience for me. You know? So, you don't waste it. You know, and we don't waste it by paying attention to it. You know, yeah, I can be sad you know I can just carry that around but that's not skillful. Skillfulness means that like oh I am actually feeling sad. I wonder where the sadness is in my body. I wonder what the narrative around this. I wonder if this is telling me to make certain choices that I am not making you know. I wonder if this is leading me somewhere that I resist going. You know, but most importantly we're using sadness to say you know what I am not the only one in the world who is sad. That my heart is full of sadness, so are a lot of other people's. And I wonder how I can bridge you know my work around sadness and being free from sadness with other people's like wish to be free from sadness and suffering. You know, and that is skillful. We're using it. Its telling us to connect. Understand you are not the only one. This is a basic human you know condition you know and that I can get - become a part of helping people to - to manage their sadness to move through their sadness. [00:16:07.00] DAVID: Yeah, wow. There is a lot of compassion when you're in the sadness knowing that other people are sad too. Like it kind of - makes your heart a little bit bigger knowing that other people are suffering too. And that's ok. It helps you move that energy a little bit better and not bypass it almost. [00:16:27.22] LAMA ROD OWENS: Absolutely. [00:16:28.10] DAVID: And I really - I am really enjoying how you say don't waste it. Why would you want to waste it? That is a nutrition for your soil. You know your energetic soil is being enriched by this emotion that society labels taboo but when you can process it then that's where the goodness comes out of. [00:16:50.12] LAMA ROD OWENS: Absolutely. But you know people have to be - interested in that. Like they have to actually have this basic trust. That - it is possible to move through sadness. And most people don't. Even like - even dharma practitioners - not all dharma practitioners buy into this. You know? Uh because our emotional reality is so intense you know, and it took me a bit as a new practitioner years ago that where I was just like oh this isn't enough. You know this is not going to be enough to actually confront - this really intense rage that I experience. And then my basic strategy became patience. You know then within patience kindness. You know towards myself and that started triggering this kind of spaciousness. You know I began to relax and began to understand that my rage and anger were so precious for me. You know? That maybe my reactivity, my compulsory relationship to that - those emotions maybe weren't that skillful but the energy itself - the presence of the anger is quite skillful. Was quite precious because it was actually teaching me a lot you know as Audrey Lloyd writes you know there is so much data in anger and you know we misuse anger when we don't actual mind the data. You know it just becomes this energy that we manipulate, and we use often to hurt people and we use it to hurt ourselves. You know? But beneath it is always the hurt. [00:18:23.07] DAVID: When you are angry and you're using it not skillfully you start hurting people, but when you have a very clear lens of - of how to process where the root is coming from you have like a clear idea and I feel like this is what the contemplative model, the following spirit, following your heart like the stuff that people talk about - the work. That is where it is. ItŐs like sling shot. It propels you so much further than just always being happy. Like what do you mean I got to be sad? Like nah I want that. I want to be - I want to be happy all the time. Oh man, this just happened. So, thanks for sharing all that. It feels really potent at this moment to hear that its ok to feel what you feel. [00:19:14.18] LAMA ROD OWENS: What we're missing right now and so many of the conversations that we're having in our communities and nationwide is just these nuances. Like we're all hitting extremes because of our deep woundedness. The deep anger that comes from that woundedness. We just - it forces us to hit these intense extremes and we don't know how to listen to ourselves anymore. And to listen to others. And so, if we don't know how to listen - we don't actually know how to discern the nuances is neither black or white - itŐs this immense uh range of greenness. You know? Which is - complex. But we're not interested in complexity. We're actually quite interested in simplicity and that is where so much of our violence comes from is in over simplifying everything. [00:20:02.09] DAVID: Yeah. I kind of think that everything is simple but itŐs just simplicities upon simplicities, so it seems complex. Like the universe seems complex. But, there is like this macro micro... below kind of idea. l like playing with that just a little bit. [00:20:19.10] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, and I was telling you - we all are endowed with our basic goodness. Our basic Buddha nature. You know then we have these fools of ignorance that take us away from that basic goodness and so and I think one of the things that we begin to understand, and this is actually quite echoed in early uh Buddhist literature - in theravada literature where you have these minute step by step ways of uh when I say metabolizing or deconstructing reality. Deconstructing thoughts and emotions and sensations. You know because we are trying to - to peel b back these simplicities you know because all this layer of all these really simple things gets stacked up and it gets really complex. So, you're peeling back layer after layer of layer and that is why I love early Buddhism. You know this is what is not echoed in the later vehicles of Buddhism is this nuance simplicity you know uh - so we just take it step by step. You know and then over time we get quicker. You know like you start peeling through these layers because you start earning these realizations and those realizations actually cut us directly into a nature of reality and this why I love Audrianna and the higher vocals because itŐs like ok let's get there quicker but you still have to do the work, but here is some really skillful things we're going to add to the practices that get - that rev us up. [00:21:44.03] DAVID: Yeah, so when you talk about the layers, what just came to mind for me is the layers of conditions. The conditions that we have. And so, when you're talking about deconstructing what that sounds like to me is - is learning how to uncondition ourselves from what society, family situations, friends, communities that we run with. And, how that affects us internally like our psyche, our hearts, our - how we externally show up to the world and so what it sounds like to me is we are learning how to uncondition ourselves to be betterly conditioned to what serves us. [00:22:23.01] LAMA ROD OWENS: Right. Yeah. [00:22:24.17] DAVID: Yeah. So, we talked a little bit about ego and how befriending something that normally you don't want to be friends with. What are some practices that you do to befriend something like that? [00:22:39.05] LAMA ROD OWENS: You know when I think about befriending parts of myself that I would rather avoid its really about for me the practice of compassion for myself you know and understanding that what I experience is something that all sensitive beings experience or have experienced at one point. You know that what I experience is not a judgement. But its directly related to my wisdom and skillfulness and so the closer relationship I can have to the things that I am avoiding the more I began to understand how to unravel these experiences so I don't have to experience certain things again. Or I know the strategy to move very quickly through it so it doesn't become this source of intense suffering for me. [00:23:25.00] DAVID: As the practitioner or the person becomes more skillful in these unconditioning techniques and realizing what's relevant to them they foresee things in the future. They - they become more energetically clairvoyant you can say. They like - they are like oh - I see that over there. I ain't going over there. Or like oh I see that over there. I am running over there. You know what I mean? So, you are able to foresee what serves you sooner than later. And maybe not having to do so much work in the back end. [00:23:59.10] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, because I think that is really reasonable to say you know if I put in the work up front then on the back end this will be a different experience. You know this is just like the why we practice as we much as we can in our lives because at the moment of our death this is where - this is the back end. So, death is the back end of our practice and so it will be revealed to us the depth of our practice and our realizations at the moment of death. You know so you don't wait till the moment that you're dying to start practicing. You know, you start when you can. ItŐs different for everyone. But whatever we do will deeply impact for the better. This moment of transition for us. [00:24:42.05] DAVID: The borrowing ain't going to lie. [00:24:43.19] LAMA ROD OWENS: I've done a lot of things live but our minds and our versions you know like we just get into this habit of like you know I don't want to deal with this so let's create something else. [00:24:55.10] DAVID: Bypassing. And a step aside. So, I have a couple questions for you. What does mindfulness mean to you? [00:25:04.09] LAMA ROD OWENS: You know so mindfulness - mindfulness for me is this strategy of coming into the present moment with this kind of warmth and curiosity. You know its uh paying attention you know and itŐs also a practice of ethics. I pay attention and practice curiosity because I want to be a better person. I want to be a less violent person. So, I can bring my mind to focusing on things that cultivate goodness. You know? And that's how you know no matter what space I am in you know teaching mindfulness that is my basic like definition. So, I am always - I always say this is an ethical activity about cultivating an attention towards what is positive and what is good. You know? [00:25:49.07] DAVID: You have this thing where you talk about violence and you say violence of the self or violence to the external and for some reason I really like that because - even its not this violence we are mind - our dictionary kind of runs to of like hurting someone but there is a difference of hurting yourself. So, itŐs like a self-violence. I really like you uh phrase that. [00:26:11.17] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, for me I think we have to think really more - much more complex about violence. You know I think sometimes I think the way that we use violence is way - the ways that we understand violence - rather is a way for us to bypass understanding how we're violent towards ourselves. You know? ItŐs that and also, I think that we get into this place where we're like that is violent and this isn't. You know, but my basic understanding of violence is harm. You know? ItŐs like so whatever I do to create harm is violence. You know even if I just say something as violent. If I think something is violent. If I do something that is violent against other people against myself it doesn't matter. So, if we put ourselves into relationship to understanding that like yeah, we are in these interdependent relationships and we're always impacting one another but itŐs not that we're going to be - itŐs not that we are going to completely reduce to zero our violence in the world, but we are trying to greatly reduce it. You know - and then we're able to - to do other practices to hold this space for the things that we are actually aren't skillful conscious enough to see, but I think part of enlightenment is about understanding how we're interconnected in certain ways. You know? But you know I think there are different ways to understand enlightenment. But there are many enlightened beings in the world who do violence as well. So, it - its complex. [00:27:39.04] DAVID: Complexities. There might be a little practice in there to have this internal question where you ask yourself am I being violent to others? Am I being violent to myself? Am I being violent to my ego? My psyche, my heart? Am I following my path. [00:27:54.04] LAMA ROD OWENS: And you can just basically ask yourself what do I need in this moment and what do I want? Where am I forcing to happen? Am I listening to myself? Am I listening to other people? You know am I grounded in my agency? Am I honoring other people's agency? You know agency is incredibly important in this practice. We have to have a sense of power over ourselves. We have to have a sense that we can make certain choices that benefit ourselves and others. If we don't have that basic agency or that sense of agency, then we will be victims of violence and we will agents of violence at the same time often. [00:28:32.02] DAVID: Oh! All right, I got one more question for you. Trungpa was known for bringing Budd - when the iron bird flies Buddhism comes to the west. You know - so there is this idea that Buddhism is here and its - and it has its roots now. ItŐs been here for a while. How do you see contemporary Western Buddhism showing up in America or the west regions? [00:28:57.03] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah, you know itŐs great you know, and Buddhism was here before Trungpa got here. Buddhism came with Chinese, Japanese immigrants you know. And you know we see early roots of Buddhism - late 1800s. You know where westerners were actually coming back and trying to teach you know. I mean not that successfully because there was no infrastructure. You know? And then Chinese and Japanese folks started immigrating in early 1900s and really started building temples and everything. And I think that created a foundation and I think Trungpa Rinpoche realized that. You know uh -- for Trungpa Rinpoche and for some of you know our pioneers to come in you know and I think that he created a really strong foundation particularly in terms of language. He was the first to actually translate dharma into a way that kind of galvanized people. You know but it was actually strictly related to a certain class and racial group and ethnicity you know of people, but it still was like the first shot that like landed. You know uh - and I think that for me I was - I have been so deeply inspired by that and so my example of Trungpa Rinpoche - the way that I try to emulate that is to actually rephrase dharma. You know and for me - I think Trungpa was trying to translate dharma to - to support people. To support these new students using counter and care. You know my translation of dharma is to actually support and to articulate my experience of how dharma is moving through my body. You know? And that in turn is having this effect of creating a language that actually speaks to a lot of people. And so, I think right now in the west I think we are going through this experimental phase where there are people doing what I am doing. There are people trying to figure out what doesn't work for us you know that we've gotten our teachings directly - at least for me. I directly studied with Tibetans. You know and so how do we take the teachings out of this cultural context and try to figure out how to do it in a Western American context and itŐs going to be looked - itŐs going to look very different. But I think there is an essence that we can bring forth into American dharma you know and itŐs going to be really interesting to look at. But I think dharma will take root within communities of marginalized folks. You know, and that's a narrative in America that we habitually avoid looking at. You know that change only happens within communities of the most marginalized and most suppressed and I think marginalized oppressed communities have a different relationship to suffering. You know itŐs real. ItŐs not something we read in a book. ItŐs something we're born into and we're like oh this sucks. And you know? I think a lot of Jews get involved in Buddhism because there is this trans-historical trauma of the Holocaust you know that at least talking with my Jewish friends you know itŐs like you just get it. Like you are born with families and you get it and itŐs like what do you do with that? And a lot of people move into dharma to help metabolize that trauma. You know that their tradition isn't you know quite working with. So, I think that is going to be the same thing you know in terms of marginalized people of color communities. ItŐs like yeah, I think we're going to start working with dharma - it is such a direct way. ItŐs not a performance. ItŐs actually about we are experiencing this, and we want to get free so let's stop bullshitting and just do it. You know? And a lot of like white majority community - dharma communities actually don't know how to struggle. You know in certain ways and so itŐs like I think for me my experience as a person of color who is also queer identified has been this earning of dharma in a really intense way. You know itŐs like I just didn't read a book and was like oh this sounds great. It sounds really sexy. I am just going to do this. You know I needed to save my life. I was dying in so many ways. You know? And so, I needed to save my life so I took it seriously and of course I got real extreme with it and you know I took it to - I moved so quickly through it people thought I was kind of like you know off you know itŐs like people just didn't believe that I could actually go so quickly, but when you find something that is saving your life then that is a whole other relationship that you have to. You begin to consume it and that consumption begins to nourish something that eventually you begin to put back out into the world as something that has been processed and metabolized. And that's what people are getting from me is something that has been processed and metabolized and boiled down to this really pure form and they don't really get that because I am not parroting or performing you know texts. You know I am just saying this is the way dharma lives in my body. Through direct experience. Through a direct understanding of this is how I am in the moment and this is what I am doing to be less violent. [00:33:56.19] DAVID: You are just like an essential oil. The pure medicine. So, I have one more question just because this one just kind of came up. You label yourself as a queer person in the community and you're also a man of color. And you study Tibetan Buddhism. How does that show up for you when you are going to different communities? Maybe some marginalized, maybe some not. How does that show up for you being the labels that you run with? [00:34:24.09] LAMA ROD OWENS: For me itŐs the labels - so these narratives. So, I define identity as just these narratives. These stories we tell ourselves. You know about who we think we are. You know so these narratives you know I allow dharma the teachings to kind of filter through these narratives. So, I was never anyone who believed that like oh you have to like dharma is somewhere up there and we just have to reach for it and get it. But my whole practice is no let dharma just like flood you. Like let dharma just like enter into your body and see what happens. And see what comes out of that. You know so when I am going in and out of these communities itŐs like yeah, I have all these identities, but you know what I am actually just saying and - and speaking about is just basic presence and basic awareness. And how to get free from you know suffering. You know so itŐs not - so but I do it in a way that where people who identify with my intersectionality they kind of get. Like how I did it. And they can emulate that and follow that, and I think this is why radical dharma has been so important because people are actually able to read the experiences of black dharma teachers and black and serious black practitioners. And they are like this is how you did it. And yeah you went through a process of having to change but you then you realize that you didn't actually have to change. You know that I shouldn't change for dharma. Dharma should change me. [00:35:50.01] DAVID: Yes. And so, real quick - Radical Dharma is a book that you co-authored with Reverend Angel Kyodo Williams, yes? [00:35:58.08] LAMA ROD OWENS: And Dr. Jasmine Syedullah as well. [00:36:02.02] DAVID: Awesome. So, if you all out there want to dive deeper into the knowledge there is a little book out there to read. [00:36:09.03] LAMA ROD OWENS: And people can always stay connected to me. Just visit my website. You know Lama Rod dot com. And I will be announcing my next book hopefully soon. It won't come until next year - till June 2019. But you will get word and so forth about it later this year. [00:36:25.19] DAVID: Awesome, well I really appreciate you speaking with us. I know you have something else you need to run to. We - Naropa is like pulling you here and there. Uh but I really appreciate you talking with us and just sharing your love, your knowledge, your extremely digestible information and very relatable. So, thank you so much. [00:36:44.16] LAMA ROD OWENS: Thank you. [00:36:46.10] DAVID: I would like to thank our very special guest to Naropa University - Lama Rod Owens. He is the visiting Distinguished Lenz Lecturer author, activist, and Lama. So, thanks again. [00:36:56.23] LAMA ROD OWENS: Yeah absolutely. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]